Ethiopia
-Solomonic King Constantine II
-The Palace forces of Queen Mother Eleni
-(this one is iffy) The Pretender Na'Od
- The Ethipian Orthodox Church & Patriarch

Parliament is intended to be one faction.

I redid the Ottomans:

Jagiellons-Royal family of the monarchy
Nobles- Very large class for Europe, 7 out of 10 people in this class, possible hindrance for royals.
The Church (Catholic)- what do you think?
Peasants- Poor people.

All I can think of for now. If anybody else wishes to help, please do.

Thanks. Additions made to my list.

France

-Ruler: Charles VIII (House of Valois)
-Catholic Church: French Monarchy has de facto power of appointment; de jure claims power of councils over popes (though only practiced when convenient)
-Nobility (Bourbon, various sub-branches of Valois, etc.)
-Non-Integrated Provinces (Brittany,Burgundy, etc)
-Localized Parlements (Paris, Languedoc, Dauphine, Guyenne and Gascony, Burgundy)
-Peasants


Navarre

Ruler: Catherine
Highlands: Rivals with below
Lowlands: Rivals with above
Cortes (Parliament)
Catholic Church
Peasants



Savoy

-Ruler: Charles II; de facto Blanche of Montferrat
-Savoiardi: French-speaking, French-leaning old nobility on the western side of the Alps
-Piemontesi: Italian-speaking, on the eastern side of the Alps



Milan

-Ruler: Giangaleazzo Sfarza; de facto Lodovico Sforza
-Gian Faction: Headed by Giangaleazzo’s wife Isabella of Aragon [daughter of Alfonso, heir of Naples] who wish to see Giangaleazzo take power from Lodovico
-Peasants: Disturbed over heavy taxes and their poverty compared to the extravagant lifestyle of Milan court


Genoa

-Ruler: Agostino Adorno, governor for Milan (governatore ducale)
-Council of Twelve: Principle deliberative body, equally divided between nobles and popolo grasso
-Nobles: influential due to their control of the Bank of Saint George, which controlled most of the public funds as well as public lands; most wealthy class
-Popolo Grasso: Established commercial middle class, though weaker than previous as their wealth had been tied to eastern Mediterranean holdings which had been lost; factionalized around personalities
-Popolo Minuto: Shopkeepers, craftsmen, notaries, and rising merchants; de jure politically excluded but indirectly influential; usually allied with various factions of popolo grasso
-Cappette: Proletariat of city and coastal towns



Venice

-Ruler: Signoria, which is the Doge (Agostino Barbarigo) and six privy councilors who act as executive branch
-Maggior Consiglio [Great Council]: 480 members of the “old nobility” restricted to male descendants of persons who had sat on the Maggior Consiglio before 1297; appoints and supervises other branches
-Senate: 120 members of the Maggior Consiglio who oversaw the day-to-day legislative needs
-Council of Ten: Members of the Maggior Consiglio who were in charge of “public safety” (i.e. spies and secret police with power of judgment)
-Judges: 40 judges appointed by Maggior Consiglio who provide judiciary branch



Florence

-Ruler: de facto Lorenzo de’ Medici
-Consiglio di Settanta (Council of Seventy): Membership for life, mostly made up of Lorenzo supporters
-Signory: Executive agents of the Council
-Merchants: Enjoying the prosperity
-Peasants: Kept happy through welfare and games
-Reformers: Little in power now, but Savonarola is just starting to become popular



Naples

-Ruler: Ferdinand
-Nobility: Loyal to Ferdinand as Ferdinand had brutally killed or imprisoned those who were against him, with others choosing exile
-Peasants

Vijaynagara Empire

Raya of the Saluva Dynasty-The King
Pradhana-The ministers and bureaucracy headed by the Mahapradhana (Prime Minister)
Nayak-The various vassal lords and of various territories (Maduri, Mysore, Tanjore, Vellore, Chitradurga, Chandgari, Gingee, Kelandi)
Religious sects and movements-the Bhakti movement (Haridasa movement), Lingyatisim, Vaishnavaisim. Shavianisim, philosophy of Madhvacharya etc...
Peasants-Unwashed masses

Nobles- Very large class for Europe, 7 out of 10 people in this class
In the 1490s? :p

I think you should divide the sejmiki and the szlachta, who are often at odds, and differentiate the Lithuanian nobility from both of them.

If your interested I can peruse my financial history books for what is feasible for bankers in 1490 ;)

In the 1490s? :p

I think you should divide the sejmiki and the szlachta, who are often at odds, and differentiate the Lithuanian nobility from both of them.

Also, peasants could be divided into serfs and Cossacks (they are already around, just not as prominent as they will become relatively soon).

I will write up on this later. And edit it. To be honest, I haven't read up upon it so sorry for misinformation. But I haven't slept so I'll just post what I think as of now.

Kalmar Factions
- King Almighty (Not included in the 5)
- Danish Royal Court
- Hanseatic league (These guys were here as of now, right?)
- Norwegian Nobles (Devoted to the Danish ruler since Norwegian law elected the king by blood, not by oligarchic election)
- Swedish Unionists (Yes these existed. In fact, Sweden was technically in civil war at this point due to the conflicts of interests. The people are getting tired of fighting, though, so they're settling slowly)
- Swedish Separatists

Also, peasants could be divided into serfs and Cossacks (they are already around, just not as prominent as they will become relatively soon).
Fair enough. The registered/unregistered Cossack problem comes up later, though, right?
- Hanseatic league (These guys were here as of now, right?)
Yes, they are, and beginning their long decline.

Fair enough. The registered/unregistered Cossack problem comes up later, though, right?

Yes, ofcourse. I'm not sure if the government had any sort of a contract with them yet, they just were on territory claimed by Poland and more in Poland's sphere of influence than in anyone else's.

I probably should've brought this up earlier, but the faction system is being a bit confusing/a misnomer. It's not so much political factions as politically significant social groups, so I'm not sure if it should be Swedish unionists/separatists or aristocrats/burghers (the second option being complicated by internal disagreements).

I probably should've brought this up earlier, but the faction system is being a bit confusing/a misnomer. It's not so much political factions as politically significant social groups, so I'm not sure if it should be Swedish unionists/separatists or aristocrats/burghers (the second option being complicated by internal disagreements).
Hmm. That's actually a good point. What sort of factions are we looking for, here?

Also, I think Danzig, or the Hansa in general, should be a Polish faction, seeing as they have the stranglehold on that Baltic trade that is about to become very important.

I think this finishes out Italy and all European NPCs that are currently displayed on the map.


Papal States

-Ruler: Pope Innocent VIII
-Barons: Directly control most of the land of the Papal States; traditionally ignore the Pope
-Cardinals: As of 1490 there are 25, with 2 more appointed but not published (or confirmed by given a see by the pope in writing). Except for those made cardinals because of power in foreign countries (as of 1490, there are four: Luis Juan del Mila y Borja and Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza in Spain; Andre d’Espinay in France; and Pierre d’Aubusson the Grandmaster of Knights Hospitaller in Rhodes), all Cardinals are expected to live in Rome lest they be thought traitors to the Pope (this is because cardinals outside of Rome are more able to call a general council, which could be seen as a threat to Papal power)
-Peasants: Republicanism occasionally rears its head in Rome



Swiss Confederacy

-Ruler: Vorort, the presiding canton of the Tagsatzung, which rotates
-Tagsatzung: A diet which met several times a year, with each conton represented by two representatives
-Cantons: 13 autonomous cities/areas bound together by overlapping pacts and bilateral treaties



Grenada

-Ruler: Abu ‘abd-Allah Muhammad XII
-Imans: Religious elite of city
-Tribes: Familial power of city, especially powerful is the Abencerrages
-Urban Dwellers: Since Grenada is reduced to the city itself, comprises the entirety of the populous



Ireland

-Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland
-Irish Clans: Gaelic lords and chieftains
-Hiberno-Norman: English/Norman lords who became Gaelicized
-Peasants: Freeholders and tenants, usually very poor, farming the worst lands

I would like to switch from Bavaria to Venice. Can I still do that Bird?:)

If someone did Egypt I would be very greatful, im kinda swamped atmo

@Dachs: My original faction list came from a five minute look on wikipedia just before I went to bed. So if you have any suggestions for me, please, share them by all means, but don't just point out errors.

Also, after having done some more research, I am changing my factions. Anybody can feel free to elaborate, as there is only so much I can learn from the internet.

The Sejmik: A Parliament-like structure that elects officials, judges, and even a king.
Szlachta: Polish Nobility, I correct my earlier statement- 7% lived in this
Lithuanian Nobility: Very slowly merging with the Szlachta
Cossacks: A semi-independent militaristic group.
Serfs: Poor people.

Again, any suggestions are welcome.

If your interested I can peruse my financial history books for what is feasible for bankers in 1490 ;)Great!

I would like to switch from Bavaria to Venice. Can I still do that Bird?:)Yes.

Yes, ofcourse. I'm not sure if the government had any sort of a contract with them yet, they just were on territory claimed by Poland and more in Poland's sphere of influence than in anyone else's.

I probably should've brought this up earlier, but the faction system is being a bit confusing/a misnomer. It's not so much political factions as politically significant social groups, so I'm not sure if it should be Swedish unionists/separatists or aristocrats/burghers (the second option being complicated by internal disagreements).You are probably correct. I see them as the important groups that creaete political tension and the potential for revolt or trouble. Getting them all straight is only the beginning of the challenge here. :crazyeye:

Not to sound impatient or anything, but just out of curiosity, how close to starting this thing are we?

Not to sound impatient or anything, but just out of curiosity, how close to starting this thing are we?
This past week has had lots of distractions, but I hopeful to make progress this weekend. There are a huge number of small details that have to dealt with that are just slow going. I'm still aiming for February. **cross your fingers**

My current list of players:
The blue names are those for which i have faction information. I need it for the others. In addition, strategos suggested that each player set the starting scores for the factions in their nation. that would be a huge help to me in getting this thing rolling.

Each faction needs two scores: loyalty and size. Loyalty is measured -5 to +5 and size 0 to 10.

Zero size does not mean "non existent, just very minor. If a faction disappears (because silver hunted down every last member and roasted them), then it will just disappear from the list or all its scores will go to zero

If you have posted factions and I've not shown it, let me know and point to a post please.

Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li

Moscow: das
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039
China: Azale
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice
http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/bts/updated.gif Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs; Adrogans

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Japan: HMS Vanguard What do you think HMS?

Other choices still open:
Mughals:
Persians (several options here)
Mayan revival
Bavaria
Sultanate of Delhi:
Malacca Sultanate

Indian nations on the map:
Rajput
Bengal
Gujerat
Sind
Malwa
Gondwana
Ahmadnagar
Bijapur
Golconda
Orissa
Berar

Other European states:
Navarre
Savoy
Milan
Florence
Naples

Comments on the Indian nations are welcome.

I can help with the Indian nations.

Thank you. Don't go overboard with factions for them, one or two is probably sufficient.

I'm thinking of perhaps joining this when it starts. Would I be able to be Ryukyu? I haven't found too much info on the factions in it, although I'm guessing it would be something like this:

Nobility
Merchants
Possibly Peasants

I know Ryukyu's merchants were very important, as they were a major part of the maritime trade in the region. They traveled around much of East Asia, reaching so far as Java. I don't know too much about the nobility there at the time, and I'm not sure if peasants would have had much power or influence.

Why are we automatically assuming that silver will be as bloody and vicious as usual? :mischief:

Already posted my factions, but I suppose I can do it again:

-Grandmaster (Johann von Tiefen) and Prussian Knights
-Livonian Order Knights
-Prussian non-Order gentry
-City burghers of Livonia and Prussia, and merchants
-Catholic clergy

faction size is relative to the given nation, yes?

Why are we automatically assuming that silver will be as bloody and vicious as usual?

Its discrimination I say.

Delhi Sultanate:

Lodhi Dynasty: The ruling dynasty currently ruled by Sikander Shah
Barbak Shah: The older brother of Sikander Shah, has staked a claim to the throne and is viceroy of Jaunpur. In power struggle against younger brother so for non-violent.
Alam Khan: Uncle of Sikander Shah conspiring (separately) to overthrow him
Afghan Nobility: A significant element of the Sultanate's court often rebellious
Hindus: Form majority of the population, currently facing a large degree of oppression with their temples being razed, and priests being persecuted, idols broken.

I'm thinking of perhaps joining this when it starts. Would I be able to be Ryukyu? I haven't found too much info on the factions in it, although I'm guessing it would be something like this:

Nobility
Merchants
Possibly Peasants

I know Ryukyu's merchants were very important, as they were a major part of the maritime trade in the region. They traveled around much of East Asia, reaching so far as Java. I don't know too much about the nobility there at the time, and I'm not sure if peasants would have had much power or influence.You mean those island specks south of Japan? Sure. :crazyeye:

Why are we automatically assuming that silver will be as bloody and vicious as usual? :mischief:Is the Pope catholic?

Already posted my factions, but I suppose I can do it again:

-Grandmaster (Johann von Tiefen) and Prussian Knights
-Livonian Order Knights
-Prussian non-Order gentry
-City burghers of Livonia and Prussia, and merchants
-Catholic clergyPlease add loyalty and size.

faction size is relative to the given nation, yes?Hmmm I would say yes.

Its discrimination I say.But fully justified I say. ;)

Is the Pope catholic?

Now that is a very good question... :p

Please add loyalty and size.
Ah, righto.

-Grandmaster (Johann von Tiefen) and Prussian Knights (4,4)
-Livonian Order Knights (3,4)
-Prussian non-Order gentry (1,5)
-City burghers of Livonia and Prussia, and merchants (-3,7)
-Catholic clergy (1,3)

Edited for loyalty and size.

Delhi Sultanate:

Lodhi Dynasty: The ruling dynasty currently ruled by Sikander Shah (5, 10)
Barbak Shah: The older brother of Sikander Shah, has staked a claim to the throne and is viceroy of Jaunpur. In power struggle against younger brother so for non-violent. (-3, 4)
Alam Khan: Uncle of Sikander Shah conspiring (separately) to overthrow him (-4, 2)
Afghan Nobility: A significant element of the Sultanate's court often rebellious (3, 5)
Hindus: Form majority of the population, currently facing a large degree of oppression with their temples being razed, and priests being persecuted, idols broken. (-5, 10)

The Delhi Sultanate a dysfunctional family with a country.

You mean those island specks south of Japan? Sure.

Thank you BJ. Although I must say, Ryukyu is more than just "specks". They were fairly important when it came to trade, and I plan on making them more than just a few tiny islands. ;)

-Joachim I Nestor, Elector of Brandenburg: The Prince-Elector of Brandenburg. A strong Catholic and patron of learning. (5,1)
-Nobles: Weakened in recent years with increased Hohenzollern control. They remain mostly loyal out of fear of losing more power and no where else to turn. (2,2)
-The Peasants: Although two major rebellions have occurred within the last 50 years, Joachim's more reasonable policies have increased their loyalty towards the monarchy. (3,8)
-The Catholic Church: Very strongly tied to the monarchy in Brandenburg. Albert, the Archbishop of Madeburg is the Prince-Elector's brother. (3,2)
-Burghers-Some in the merchant class are upset over the weakening of the Hanseatic League in favor of the monarchy. (-2,5)

You might need to check up on sources and stuff because I'm doing this off the top of my head from high school history lessons

Sultanate of Malacca
Sultan's Faction - Those loyal to Sultan Mahmud Shah, includes most of the Royal Family, etc. (5,4)
Tun Mutahir Faction - Tun Mutahir was the Bendahara (PM) of Malacca at that point in time, being a Gujerati Muslim (or Tamil, depending on your source) many of the Sultan's Faction are extremely jealous of him. However, all sources reckon he's pretty loyal. Sultan lusts after Mutahir's daughter Tun Fatimah (4, 2)
Foreign Merchants - Mostly Chinese, Indian and Arab. They just want to trade and get things over and done with but most have to suck up to Tun Mutahir to get trading concessions (0, 3)

Europeans wouldn't have landed on Malacca till 1509

It will do unless someone contests it. ;) Thanks.

loyalty, size (under the assumption that size is some amalgam of numbers, wealth, influence..)

James IV 5;3
Nobles 1;4
Parliament -1;4
Lord of the Isles -4;1
Peasants 0;8

Bankers, Alex and masada, Please post names for your companies, a home city and one or two branch offices. I suggest branches be in important trading towns.

Grenada

-Ruler: Abu ‘abd-Allah Muhammad XII (1,4)
-Imans: Religious elite of city (-1,3)
-Tribes: Familial power of city, especially powerful is the Abencerrages (-4,6)
-Urban Dwellers: Since Grenada is reduced to the city itself, comprises the entirety of the populous (-3,5)


Navarre

Ruler: Catherine (5,5)
Highlands: Rivals with below (2,2)
Lowlands: Rivals with above (2,2)
Cortes (Parliament) (2,2)
Catholic Church (2,3)


Ireland

-Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland (4,3)
-Irish Clans: Gaelic lords and chieftains (0,4)
-Hiberno-Norman: English/Norman lords who became Gaelicized (2,4)
-Peasants: Freeholders and tenants, usually very poor, farming the worst lands (-2,2)


France
-Ruler: Charles VIII (House of Valois) (3,7)
-Catholic Church: French Monarchy has de facto power of appointment; de jure claims power of councils over popes (though only practiced when convenient) (3,3)
-Nobility (Bourbon, various sub-branches of Valois, etc.) (0,4)
-Non-Integrated Provinces (Brittany, Burgundy, etc) (-1,4)
-Localized Parliaments (Paris, Languedoc, Dauphine, Guyenne and Gascony, Burgundy) (0,4)
-Peasants (0,3)



Swiss Confederacy

-Ruler: Vorort, the presiding canton of the Tagsatzung, which rotates (3,1)
-Tagsatzung: A diet which met several times a year, with each conton represented by two representatives (3,2)
-Cantons: 13 autonomous cities/areas bound together by overlapping pacts and bilateral treaties (0,10)


Savoy

-Ruler: Charles II; de facto Blanche of Montferrat (3,3)
-Savoiardi: French-speaking, French-leaning old nobility on the western side of the Alps (0,2)
-Piemontesi: Italian-speaking, on the eastern side of the Alps (2,3)


Milan

-Ruler: Giangaleazzo Sfarza; de facto Lodovico Sforza (4,6)
-Gian Faction: Headed by Giangaleazzo’s wife Isabella of Aragon [daughter of Alfonso, heir of Naples] who wish to see Giangaleazzo take power from Lodovico (-4,1)
-Peasants: Disturbed over heavy taxes and their poverty compared to the extravagant lifestyle of Milan court (-2,3)


Genoa

-Ruler: Agostino Adorno, governor for Milan (governatore ducale) (4,3)
-Council of Twelve: Principle deliberative body, equally divided between nobles and popolo grasso (0,2)
-Nobles: influential due to their control of the Bank of Saint George, which controlled most of the public funds as well as public lands; most wealthy class (-1,5)
-Popolo Grasso: Established commercial middle class, though weaker than previous as their wealth had been tied to eastern Mediterranean holdings which had been lost; factionalized around personalities (-3,3)
-Popolo Minuto: Shopkeepers, craftsmen, notaries, and rising merchants; de jure politically excluded but indirectly influential; usually allied with various factions of popolo grasso (0,2)
-Cappette: Proletariat of city and coastal towns (0,1)


Venice

-Ruler: Signoria, which is the Doge (Agostino Barbarigo) and six privy councilors who act as executive branch (3,4)
-Maggior Consiglio [Great Council]: 480 members of the “old nobility” restricted to male descendants of persons who had sat on the Maggior Consiglio before 1297; appoints and supervises other branches (3,4)
-Senate: 120 members of the Maggior Consiglio who oversaw the day-to-day legislative needs (3,4)
-Council of Ten: Members of the Maggior Consiglio who were in charge of “public safety” (i.e. spies and secret police with power of judgment) (3,5)
-Judges: 40 judges appointed by Maggior Consiglio who provide judiciary branch (3,4)


Florence

-Ruler: de facto Lorenzo de’ Medici (4,1)
-Consiglio di Settanta (Council of Seventy): Membership for life, mostly made up of Lorenzo supporters (4,5)
-Signory: Executive agents of the Council (4,5)
-Merchants: Enjoying the prosperity (4,4)
-Peasants: Kept happy through welfare and games (4,3)
-Reformers: Little in power now, but Savonarola is just starting to become popular (-1,1)


Papal States

-Ruler: Pope Innocent VIII (4,5)
-Barons: Directly control most of the land of the Papal States; traditionally ignore the Pope (-4,7)
-Cardinals: As of 1490 there are 25, with 2 more appointed but not published (or confirmed by given a see by the pope in writing). Except for those made cardinals because of power in foreign countries (as of 1490, there are four: Luis Juan del Mila y Borja and Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza in Spain; Andre d’Espinay in France; and Pierre d’Aubusson the Grandmaster of Knights Hospitaller in Rhodes), all Cardinals are expected to live in Rome lest they be thought traitors to the Pope (this is because cardinals outside of Rome are more able to call a general council, which could be seen as a threat to Papal power) (0,4)
-Peasants: Republicanism occasionally rears its head in Rome (-1,3)


Naples

-Ruler: Ferdinand (4,7)
-Nobility: Loyal to Ferdinand as Ferdinand had brutally killed or imprisoned those who were against him, with others choosing exile (2,2)
-Peasants (-2,4)


Bavaria

-Ruler: Albert IV (4,5)
-Landschaft (the nobles) (0,4)
-Catholic Church (3,3)
-Peasants (0,4)

Mamluk Dynasty
-Ruler: Al-Ashraf Sayf al-Din Qa'it Bay (4,6)
-Amirs: [Mamluk military commanders and sometimes land holders, marginally kept in check by current sultan by playing them off each other, number a few hundred, each with personal and extremely loyal former-slave army which make up the rest of the Mamluks, have power to appoint sultans] (0,6)
-Bureaucracy: [Coptic Christian and Jewish bureaucracy headed by powerful Amirs who are appointed due to political connections rather than ability] (3,4)
-Peasants: [Oppressed by Mamluks and thus extremely dissatisfied] (-4,4)


White Sheep Turkomans
-Ruler: Y‘aqub ibn Uzun Hasan (4,5)
-Shi’ites (-1,5)
-Sunnis (-1,5)
-Great Council (0,5)

Japan

-Ruler: de jure Shogun Ashikaga Yoshizumi and Emperor Go-Tsuchimikado (3,1)
-Daimyo (0,6)
-Samurai (0,6)
-Peasants (-1,4)
-Buddhist Monks (0,4)

Thanks Strategos

How long until this starts?

I had a hard time finding info about Songhai, so please feel free to comment if you know more about them.

Songhai
Askiya Dynasty: Dynasty that currently rules the Songhai Empire. (3,5)
Governors: They ran the government; have a lot of autonomy. (0,4)
Julla: The large and very important merchant class of Songhai. (3,6)
Peasants: (-1,7)

I'm working on it and my goal is still "in Feb".

I had a hard time finding info about Songhai, so please feel free to comment if you know more about them.

Songhai
Askiya Dynasty: Dynasty that currently rules the Songhai Empire. (3,5)
Governors: They ran the government; have a lot of autonomy. (0,4)
Julla: The large and very important merchant class of Songhai. (3,6)
Peasants: (-1,7)those will probably work to begin. Some nations are certainly tougher than others.

These are assumptions. I don't know much about the Hanseatic League for example.

Kalmar Factions Loyalty/Faction size
- King Almighty (+5/6)
- Danish Royal Court (+4/5)
- Hanseatic league (-2/4)
- Norwegian Nobles (+4/10)
- Swedish Unionists (+3/7)
- Swedish Separatists (-5/8)

Although the Separatists will decrease in size soon. What happens is that with the blood bath in Stockholm, the Unionists lose 7 loyalty over time in game terms.

Inka Factions done by Soldierchild and I.

-Sapa Inca and Royalty: The Sapa Inca himself, his sons, wife and first generation royals. (4, 1)
-Nobility: Nobles by blood, nobles by privilege (through services), and the high chiefs. (2, 2)
-Hatun Runa: The general public. Part of the wider “Ayllu” class. (3, 8)
-Mitimaes: Those belonging to newly conquered races. Part of the wider “Ayllu” class. (0, 6)
-Yanaconoas: Servers of the Inca Empire. Many were captured prisoners. Part of the wider “Ayllu” class. (2, 4)

...Thanks!

Count Me In!!!!

Relative Strength of Nations of the World in the Year of Our Lord 1490

China 100
India (all states combined): 90
HRE: 20 (combined, includes HRE nations that are listed separately below as well)
France: 19
Japan: 15
Ottomans 11
Poland: 11
Spain: 9.5
Moscow: 9
Hungary: 7
Austria: 6
Egypt: 6
Songhai: 6
White Turks: 5
Ayutthaya: 5
Inca: 4
Aztecs: 4
England: 3
Kalmar Union: 3
Ethiopia: 3
Venice: 2.5
Naples: 2
Papal States: 2
Scotland: 2
Bavaria: 2
Milan: 1.75
Florence: 1.5
Portugal: 1.5
Teutonic Knights: 1
Brandenburg: 1
Switzerland: 0.75
Savoy: 0.75
Navarre: 0.75
Genoa: 0.5
Grenada: 0.5
Ryukyu: 0.5


This is obviously a draft. It's purpose is to help determine starting statistics relative to other nations in the world. It is primarily based on population with slight tweaking where obvious (such as Italian states). As such I suppose it is better reflective of potential power or untapped power rather than actual government power. But it is better than nothing, and I am confident through discussion we can make it more accurate.

Why is the Teutonic Order so low if the Second Treaty of Thorn hasn't been signed?

According to that, Matei Corvinus shouldn't have pwnd Austria and occupied their capital for a good amount of time :p.

Why is the Teutonic Order so low if the Second Treaty of Thorn hasn't been signed?

Wasn't that in 1466?

Edit: Misunderstanding resulting from me mistakenly labeling the list as "1450" instead of the correct "1490." My fault completely.


According to that, Matei Corvinus shouldn't have pwnd Austria and occupied their capital for a good amount of time :p.

The bulk of Austria's power is in/from the Netherlands. Netherlands at the time had about twice the power/wealth/population as England (making it a "6" on this scale), and I guesstimated the strength of its "core" as being 6, which is slightly less than Hungary's 7. I am, of course, open to corrections on the strength of Austria's core.

Wasn't that in 1466?
Yeah...and the scale is a 1450 scale...:confused:

Dude the Ottomans should be on top, we wtfpwn Europe in a few years.

The bulk of Austria's power is in/from the Netherlands. Netherlands at the time had about twice the power/wealth/population as EnglandThe core of the Spanish Low Countries in Charles V's day had about 2.2 million people, and provided slightly less than twice as much subsidy income as the Kingdom of Naples. That gap shrinks when the hearth and excise taxes of Naples are considered.

Dude the Ottomans should be on top, we wtfpwn Europe in a few years.You wtfpwn Hungary, fight Ferdinand, with the gigantic resources of Austria behind him, to a stalemate, and wuss out when Charles V marches a huge army against you.

The core of the Spanish Low Countries in Charles V's day had about 2.2 million people, and provided slightly less than twice as much subsidy income as the Kingdom of Naples. That gap shrinks when the hearth and excise taxes of Naples are considered.

My admitadly dated source (J.R. Hale, Renaissance Europe 1480-1520, [New York: Harper and Row, 1971], 320) lists Netherlands as having a population of 6 million as of 1500. I will see if I can find other sources to confirm or deny this number.

Thanks Strategos. In my discussions with Strategos, we talked asbout ways to establish a relative ranking of nations so that the starting economies would be closer to reality rather than even across the map. Now "economy" does not necessarily mean spendable income and clearly the span from .5 to 100 is a huge gap. This will be a huge help in trying to keep things in perspective. It will also be a nice test to just how flexible my model is.

:goodjob:

My source (Charles V, Impresario of War, by James Tracy, if you were wondering) got his number from this book (http://books.google.com/books?id=fqx7M4WiV0kC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=handbook+of+european+history+population&source=bl&ots=ZOrE8sHhHS&sig=1cEeTS84sSGq7ObTFqJ7TqrA6EI&hl=en&ei=NomYSbCcMsyatwfyqvixCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result). Six million is extremely difficult to credit, because that's more than the much better documented population of the Netherlands in 1820.

My source (Charles V, Impresario of War, by James Tracy, if you were wondering) got his number from this book (http://books.google.com/books?id=fqx7M4WiV0kC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=handbook+of+european+history+population&source=bl&ots=ZOrE8sHhHS&sig=1cEeTS84sSGq7ObTFqJ7TqrA6EI&hl=en&ei=NomYSbCcMsyatwfyqvixCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result). Six million is extremely difficult to credit, because that's more than the much better documented population of the Netherlands in 1820.

That makes sense, I've independently varified smaller population for Netherlands as well. It's just one of those cases of me copying a list of numbers without stopping to think about them.

Austria has now been lowered to a "6," I also think Moscow and Poland may be too high but will wait for feedback.

Hre is the latest map. Comments welcome. If you wit much longer, it will be too late. Colors are just placeholders for now. I will edit into this post the names of the Indian nations. Inka and Aztecs don't show. Let me know if your nation is left out or if an important nation isn't there.

The great wall is visible from space! I'll be at nes chat for a while this evening if you have any questions

Yet to be done:
Mughals made larger per das
Ryukyu added

Indian nations on the map:
Rajput- Olive
Bengal- hot pink
Gujerat- pinky fleshy
Sind- lt purple
Malwa- orange
Gondwana- tannish
Ahmadnagar -lt tannish south of Malwa
Bijapur- pale blue south of Ahmadnagar
Golconda- yellow
Orissa- bright blue
Berar- greenish north of Golconda
Vijayanagar- dark purple

Who is playing Saxony?

Franche-Comte: who owns it? Does France actually control it at this point in time?

Who is playing Saxony?No one.

Franche-Comte: who owns it? Does France actually control it at this point in time?In response to an earlier map post someone said that in 1490 it was French.

So I guess Ethiopia is not a nation?

So I guess Ethiopia is not a nation?
Yes and they are there, just a light grey. "colors are placeholders" ;)

In response to an earlier map post someone said that in 1490 it was French.
Wiki says that the Austrians have had it since nine years prior.

Yes and they are there, just a light grey. "colors are placeholders" ;)

Oh, I thought light grey meant they were "lightly civilized" or some variation :p.
So there will be new colors?

Wiki says that the Austrians have had it since nine years prior.I think it was Strategos (could be wrong) who made tha claim. IIRC it had to do with marriage. If I get time I'lll ook back fo rhis post.

Oh, I thought light grey meant they were "lightly civilized" or some variation :p.
So there will be new colors?Yes, I will post a choosing order at some point.

I'm on NES chat: /j #nes from CFC chat.

Wiki says that the Austrians have had it since nine years prior.

Wiki contradicts itself, then. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png) And Britannica also says that it went to France at Arras, and the Habsburgs got it back at Senlis after Charles broke the contract with Margaret of Austria and married Anne of Brittany.

Wiki contradicts itself, then. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png) And Britannica also says that it went to France at Arras, and the Habsburgs got it back at Senlis after Charles broke the contract with Margaret of Austria and married Anne of Brittany.
I just looked at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franche-Comte), dude. :p

Friggen Europeans, they can't even get their history straight, nuke tham all! ;)

You almost made me proud there :)

I'm coming online on #nes now, before I go to bed.

Friggen Europeans, they can't even get their history straight, nuke tham all! ;)

They'd rpobably just turn into smaller, more confusing countries if we did that!

Anyways, I know how huge the Ryukyu Kingdom is, so take your time with the map. :lol:

Where is the list of nations available and the map or a rough map?

Thinking of becoming a mercenary leader if you don't mind. Just don't know where the best place to be right now which is why I would like a map.

For Hungary's factions, I'm going to ignore the first half of 1490 and describe the situation right after the death of Matthias Corvinus; not much of anything happens then anyways.


- Janos Corvinus, Matthias's illegitimate son and the official King of Hungary and Croatia, King of Bohemia, and Duke of Austria. He has been loaded with riches and titles by his father. However, with Matthias's sudden death, the future is uncertain for this teen. 5/1.
- The nobles and their armies. Opposed to the accession of Janos Corvinus to the throne, and as power-thirsty as ever. There are rumors that they are considering making Vladislaus II king. -3/3.
- The peasants. Liked Matthias Corvinues in general, with the exception of his taxing policies, and would definitely prefer Janos on the throne to a puppet of the nobles. 2/4.
- The Black Army of Hungary. Arguably the first non-conscript, regularly-paid army since Roman times, it has never lost a battle. Unfortunately, the maintenance costs are enormous. 4/2.
- The Roman Catholic Church. It is basically the only religion in Hungary, with most of Hungarians being Roman Catholics. N\A/5

Where is the list of nations available and the map or a rough map?

Thinking of becoming a mercenary leader if you don't mind. Just don't know where the best place to be right now which is why I would like a map.
The map is on the previous page and I will post a current list of nations in a minute.

Current list of players:

Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li

Moscow: das
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039
Safavids: Shadowbound
China: Azale
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice

Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs; Adrogans

European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Other choices still open:
Ireland
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Mayan revival
Bavaria
Sultanate of Delhi:
Malacca Sultanate
Choose one not on the list if you like.

Leaning towards Ireland.... since it is the only nation left I can play that I have some knowledge with without digging up historic facts.

But I will be willing to play any nation you need filled. Or be a mercenary leader based in north Africa (Carthage area).

Leaning towards Ireland.... since it is the only nation left I can play that I have some knowledge with without digging up historic facts.

But I will be willing to play any nation you need filled. Or be a mercenary leader based in north Africa (Carthage area).

The Hafsid Kingdom was dominant in that area and I believe it was muslim. Not too much opportunity for mercenary work in Europe I would think.

The biggest gaps at the moment are in India/central Asia (Mughals, Delhi, Rajput)

If you want Europe, you could take Ireland or a German state like: Saxony, Bavaria, Hesse, Wurtemberg.

There maybe a way to work you in as a European Mercenary leader, but that is still in a TBD state.

I need factions with loyalty and size for these nations:

Spain: Lucky moose
England: Lightfang
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo

Moscow: das
Poland: Stuck in Pi

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039
Safavids: Shadowbound
China: Azale
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108

Aztecs: Adrogans

European Banker: Masada (need name and cities)
English Banker: Alex944 (need name and cities)


Other choices still open without factions and scores:
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Mayan revival

If you need help, ask in the thread.

Where is the guide to adding factions? Perhaps putting it on the front page would help new players.

If you want Europe, you could take Ireland or a German state like: Saxony, Bavaria, Hesse, Wurtemberg.


Why is there a united ireland available as a player nation? At this point outside the Pale is a bunch of fueding gaelic and Anglo-Irish lordships, both certainly still moderately loyal to the King with the Lordship of Ireland being central to the political structure. It'd be like making 'Germany' a playable state.

Oh yea, I just realized that as well. Change it:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r99/Hekatef/Europa%20Universalis/Chapter%200/Eire2.jpg
Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connaught.

Why is there a united ireland available as a player nation? At this point outside the Pale is a bunch of fueding gaelic and Anglo-Irish lordships, both certainly still moderately loyal to the King with the Lordship of Ireland being central to the political structure. It'd be like making 'Germany' a playable state.Because no one has raised the question before. :p

Oh yea, I just realized that as well. Change it:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r99/Hekatef/Europa%20Universalis/Chapter%200/Eire2.jpg
Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connaught.OK.

Well if you will do that... then I will choose an Irish tribe. Nothing beats a unification war. Especially when England threatens us. ;)

Where is the guide to adding factions? Perhaps putting it on the front page would help new players.From post #448:

Factions: factions are the various political or economic groups that can support or disrupt your nation’s stability. Each nation or region will have different types of factions. Each faction will have two values: its size and its loyalty. “Size” and “Loyalty” are then combined with other things to show its” Influence”. Peasant factions represent the overall mood of the peasants in your nation. Peasant dissatisfaction and rebellion can lead to severe disruption of your economy and lead to other factions becoming less loyal. Factions can also be influenced by other players who may want to contribute to them and their particular cause at your expense. Spending money on a faction is one way to encourage loyalty.
• Loyalty is measured from -5 to +5
• Size is measured from 0 to 10
• Influence is a combination that can range from positive (good) to negative (not so good)

The factions listed below are just examples and pretty generic. Players will be able to fine tune factions to fit more closely with the nature of their nation.

• Ruler—those leaders and nobles who are ardent supports of the current ruler. Such a faction is likely to be rather small and strongly loyal. Should they turn against you, they could easily topple your regime.
• Bureaucracy—a nation with an entrenched bureaucracy (like China) will likely have such a faction. It could be large and important.
• Religion—catholic, protestant, Buddhist, whatever. At some point European nations will likely have at least 2 religious factions. Religious factions can be large or small and can change size with some speed if the call of god comes to them.
• Land owners—wealthy lords who control lots of land from which they draw power. They might not like the idea of distributing land to peasants.
• Generals—in a military society, the army might play a strong role in politics and deserve its own faction. In most cases this will be a small group.
• Merchants—in a trading nation, merchants may well be a powerful force.
• Peasants—every nation will have a peasant faction. This one will be large and when they get upset, prone to causing trouble.

This might help. ^

Its more messy than that :p

Well if you will do that... then I will choose an Irish tribe. Nothing beats a unification war. Especially when England threatens us. ;)
Great. Strategos posted these for Irish factions:


Ireland
-Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland (4,3)
-Irish Clans: Gaelic lords and chieftains (0,4)
-Hiberno-Norman: English/Norman lords who became Gaelicized (2,4)
-Peasants: Freeholders and tenants, usually very poor, farming the worst lands (-2,2)

You can make those work with the tribes shown above if you want.

Its more messy than that :p
Ireland or factions?

Great, then I will choose Connaught as my tribe.

Ireland (Connaught Tribe)
-Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland (4,3) *Do you need this changed? I think Kildare is in another region*
-Irish Clans: Gaelic lords and chieftains (0,4)
-Hiberno-Norman: English/Norman lords who became Gaelicized (2,4)
-Peasants: Freeholders and tenants, usually very poor, farming the worst lands (-2,2)

Ireland is more messy, but we don't have space for too many Irish factions, imho.

Great, then I will choose Connaught as my tribe.

Ireland (Connaught Tribe)
-Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland (4,3) *Do you need this changed? I think Kildare is in another region*
-Irish Clans: Gaelic lords and chieftains (0,4)
-Hiberno-Norman: English/Norman lords who became Gaelicized (2,4)
-Peasants: Freeholders and tenants, usually very poor, farming the worst lands (-2,2)I don't know what is correct, but perhaps he was also Earl of Kildare.

The factions... its really messy.

The factions... its really messy.
Any suggestions?

Not that wouldn't require a long essay :p

Well then my suggestion is to set up Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland as the ruler and just have all the other messiness lumped into 3-4 groups plus pesants. His task then would be to bring the wayward groups under his control.

Ruler: Gerald Gearoid Mor Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, Lord Deputy of Ireland
Group 1
Group 2
Group 3
Peasants
Church?

The loyalties could be be negative and the sizes middling.

That will work for me. As long as I get to unify the country either through war or cunning diplomacy.

Holy crap the Aztecs were crazy society. Okay will post factions tomorrow or tuesday.

Birdy I'll be back in a week going of on holidays.

Well if you will do that... then I will choose an Irish tribe. Nothing beats a unification war. Especially when England threatens us. ;)

England? Threatening the Irish? Never!

That will work for me. As long as I get to unify the country either through war or cunning diplomacy.

The only way Ireland is being unified is in a union with England. :devil:

Edit: Faction sizes will be added tomorrow. In a new post, so it won't get lost.

On a 10 scale

-Emperor [S 1, L 10]
-eunuchs (Inner Court) [S 2, L 9]
-generals & important bureaucrats (Outer Court) [S 4, L 7]
-gentry elite [S 7, L 6]
-peasants [S 10, L 8]

-merchants [S 7, L 6] are also included but not exactly valued by the Ming higher ups

These are rough figures, the gentry elite is obviously not close to the peasants in size but are very numerous within the bureaucracy itself. Everyone is pretty loyal to the Emperor but to the state itself (even though the Emperor could be considered the state?) was not as high. If that makes sense.

King Sho Shin (S1 L10)- King Sho Shin, leader of the ryukyu Kingdom during its golden age.

Anji (S3 L7) -Sho Shin had local lords from around the country to take up residence in Shuri, lessening their ability to active independantly from the central governemnt and organize rebellions. Eventually the Anji grew more accustomed to living in Shuri, and their feelings for their old lands faded.

Jito Dai (S4 L7)- The Jito Dai were agents who oversaw outlying territories. They were still an extension of the central governemnt.

Merchants(S8 L7)- Ryukyuan merchants were extremely important, as Ryukyu's power came from trade. Ming China often provided Ryukyu with trade ships, which would then travel so far as Java and Cambodia.

Peasants (S10 L6)- Peasants. Not much to say about them. They were poor, but perhaps could enjoy some of the exotic goods Ryukyuan traders brought with them.

Is this okay BJ?

How can the ruling house not be loyal to itself? How big were the Jassinary? Anyway I understand the Ottomans were fairly centralized power so this should be about right.

House of Osman-The ruling house of the Ottomans, the Sultan who rules the nation (5, 9)
Imperial Harem-The Queen mother (Vali Sultan) of the Sultan, who runs the harem and deals with harem politics often managing to rule in her own right (2,0)
Divan-The council of ministers lead by the Grand Vizer who help shape policy but later on managed to rule the state himself sidelining the Sultan (4,0)
Janissary-The elite military slave soldiers who play a role in politics and gain favors, power, wealth and privilege initially usually loyal they steadily gained in power and often revolted (4, 1)
Peasants-Unwashed masses (1, 10)

Aztec Factions - (Size, Loyalty)
Size (1-10)
Loyalty (-5 to +5)

Huey Tlatcani - The Emperor as appointed by the Council, note this is a title not the individual's name. (1, +5)

The Council - A group of representatives from the Priests and Calpulli who elected the Emperor. (2, +4)

Priesthood - The leaders of the Aztec Religion, Highly educated and intelligent. (2, +4)

Calpulli - The nobility of the Aztecs. They tended to own the land a run in family units as opposed to simply having a single head of household. (3, +3)

Warrior Caste - Warriors came from all levels of birth so long as they were loyal and skilled. (4, +4)

Peasantry - the unwashed masses of Aztecs (8, +5)

Slaves - Mainly the captives from wars and raids, primarily captured for sacrifices. Despite this status they were also believers of the religion and the rigid caste society of the Aztecs so revolt was unlikely. (2, +1)

Does this work Beej?

Thank you all. They appear to be fine. If I have questions, I'll post them.

Tikal – Largest of the Mayan city states it is the most militant and politically powerful. It is driven to continue gaining glory through control of smaller cities nearby and sacrifices. Heading for conflict with Calakmul to determine the dominant city state. (6, +2)

Palenque – Was the largest many years ago but has been in decline for several decades. Desperate for a return to glory they have begun to return to performing the Blood Rites that they had abandoned. (4, -1)

Copán – A recent rising power on the edge of Mayan land. They have begun to claim control of most of the smaller city states on their edge of Mayan land. (3, +1)

Calakmul – The largest rival to Tikal for power over Mayan politics and wealth. They are also the center of the Mayan religion and the most observant of the larger city states. They are on a crash course to fight with Tikal for supremacy. (5, +3)

Minor City States – This is a general stat for all the smaller city states that litter the Mayan political landscape. The smaller size is due to the fact that I included vassal cities in with the lead cities stats. (5, +1)


FYI - I made Calakmul the Religious center as it was really a smallish city state and I felt that this was the closest of the larger cities for being it.

Edit - Redid loyalty to match your -5 to +5 scale.

Thanks, that will help alot.

Caught up with thread.

It seems that strength would work better than size, as peasants are very numerous and usually very powerless, whereas most noble groups are comparatively small, but far more powerful. This would be far more useful for determining their actual political significance than raw numbers, I would think.

These are the first "completed" starting stats. I choose East Asia because there is massive China, tiny Ryukyu and middling Japan. Questions and comments welcome. Please ignore the trade routes line.


East Asia

Player Stats
Nation: China/Azale
Ruler/Heir: /
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 4/110/80
Income/Treasury/Debt: 5000/10000/
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 5000/0/0/0
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 103/21/36
Stability/Policies Permitted: 11/2
Army/Navy/Cannon: 40000/20/100
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 6000/6000/0
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/5-Fortifications/5-Command
Navy Description: Med Junks/None/6-Ocean Sailing
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 15%/15%/60%/24%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Buddhism/6
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,PGIn,TrSa,ECAf,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Size\Influence
Emperor: 5/1/74
Eunuchs (Inner Court): 4/2/8
Outer Court: 2/4/8
Gentry Elite: 1/7/7
Merchants: 1/7/7
Peasants: 3/10/40


Nation: Japan/HMS Vanguard
Ruler/Heir: Shogun Ashikaga Yoshizumi/
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 2/88/28
Income/Treasury/Debt: 1600/8000/
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 1600/0/0/
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 15/24/15
Stability/Policies Permitted: 1/1
Army/Navy/Cannon: 10000/100/25
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 2000/2000/0
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/5-Fortifications/5-Command
Navy Description: Med Junks/Ramming & Boarding/6-Ocean Sailing
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 35%/10%/54%/26%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Shinto/4
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,PGIn,TrSa,ECAf,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Size\Influence
Shogunate 3/1/62
Daimyo 1/6/6
Samurai 1/4/4
Buddhist Monks 0/4/0
Peasants: -1/7/-7


Nation: Ryukyu/Ninja Dude
Ruler/Heir: King Sho Shin /
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 1/23/1
Income/Treasury/Debt: 3200/500/
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 1200/0/2000/0
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 3/24/12
Stability/Policies Permitted: 7/1
Army/Navy/Cannon: 2000/100/0
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 0/0/0
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/4-Castles/5-Command
Navy Description: Med Junks/Ramming & Boarding/6-Ocean Sailing
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 35%/10%/54%/27%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Buddhism/1
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,PGIn,TrSa,ECAf,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Size\Influence
Sho Shin 5/1/27
Anji Lords 2/3/6
Jito Dai Bureaucrats 2/4/8
Merchants 2/4/8
Peasants 2/8/16

Caught up with thread.

It seems that strength would work better than size, as peasants are very numerous and usually very powerless, whereas most noble groups are comparatively small, but far more powerful. This would be far more useful for determining their actual political significance than raw numbers, I would think.this has been a bit of a struggle. the goal is to get to what amounts to an influence score that shows the relative effect of a faction when it either supports the current leader or rebels against them. Strategos asked about this in chat today. The size number is a way to judge the cost of influencing that faction to do your bidding. Loyalty can also be seen in that light. A size 1 faction with low loyalty is much easier to influence than a size 1 with a loyalty of 5 or a large size 8 graoup with a loyalty of 1 or less.

this has been a bit of a struggle. the goal is to get to what amounts to an influence score that shows the relative effect of a faction when it either supports the current leader or rebels against them. Strategos asked about this in chat today. The size number is a way to judge the cost of influencing that faction to do your bidding. Loyalty can also be seen in that light. A size 1 faction with low loyalty is much easier to influence than a size 1 with a loyalty of 5 or a large size 8 graoup with a loyalty of 1 or less.

In which case I need to redo the Delhi Sultantes size.

That fine. :thumbsup:

I guess the main problem still is that the peasants just don't fit in, except when they're rebelling. IMHO they work entirely unlike all the other factions, which tend to be more compact, more (directly) influential and more homogeneous.

I guess the main problem still is that the peasants just don't fit in, except when they're rebelling. IMHO they work entirely unlike all the other factions, which tend to be more compact, more (directly) influential and more homogeneous.You are correct and I do not actually expect players to try to buy a peasant revolt in a neighboring nation, but I have them on the list of factions so that players can see if they are getting restless. Now a player can do things to improve the loyalty of his own peasants and loyal peasants can help stability and initiative etc.

So, yes I acknowledge your point, but do have reasons for showing the peasants in the faction list.

Does that make sense?

Suppose so.

---

Great Principality of Moscow

Factions:
- Daniilovichi (the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid Dynasty, including the apanage princes and minor annoying relatives) (2, +2);
- The Great Prince's Court (the most prominent boyars and wealthiest/most influential merchants of Moscow (the city) along with other influential persons in the central administration; consistently the loyalist faction) (4, +4);
- The local boyars (leftovers of local nobilities in Russian principalities post-annexation, in various states of disenfranchisement and humiliation; submissive and/or bitter) (5, -1);
- The dvoryans ("courtiers"; effectively a bureaucratic nobility, granted lands and privileges in exchange for civil service rather than inheriting them like boyars do (at least in theory), and constituting the upper ranks of what passes for a bureaucratic apparatus, mostly connected to administration of conquered territories) (3, +5);
- The Russian Orthodox Church (bitterly divided between the Nonpossessors and the Josephites, and along other lines as well (Judaizer heresy is still around); also, traditionally dominated by/supportive of the Great Prince, since the Metropolitan of Kiev resides in Moscow) (6, +2);
- Peasants (almost exclusively serfs to the state, the boyars, the dvoryans, the bishops or the monasteries; almost always insignificant) (10, +1).

Awesome job with the stats, although I don't know exactly what some of the stats mean. But still, I can guess what they mean, and Ryukyu seems fine.

Dvoryans aren't loyal to the state at all, das? :p

I am a little lost, do you need anything from me Birdy?

Dvoryans aren't loyal to the state at all, das?

15th century, Dachs. They're as loyal as can be at this time, being totally dependent on the state in all regards; you might be confusing them with boyars, who were situationally loyal, or with later dvoryans, who were increasingly more like boyars. Besides 1490 is a relatively stable time, after the victory over the Tartars and the end of the last real war with the udel princes, and with Ivan III generally being as awesome; things were worse earlier and are likely to get worse later.

Or maybe you're talking about me forgetting to put in their size, which probably makes more sense. :p

Or maybe you're talking about me forgetting to put in their size, which probably makes more sense. :p
*waves dismissively* Whatever number that is. In mine, I had loyalty first, then size.

Suppose so.Damned with faint praise. ;)


Great Principality of Moscow

Factions:
- Daniilovichi (the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid Dynasty, including the apanage princes and minor annoying relatives) (2, +2);
- The Great Prince's Court (the most prominent boyars and wealthiest/most influential merchants of Moscow (the city) along with other influential persons in the central administration; consistently the loyalist faction) (4, +4);
- The local boyars (leftovers of local nobilities in Russian principalities post-annexation, in various states of disenfranchisement and humiliation; submissive and/or bitter) (5, -1);
- The dvoryans ("courtiers"; effectively a bureaucratic nobility, granted lands and privileges in exchange for civil service rather than inheriting them like boyars do (at least in theory), and constituting the upper ranks of what passes for a bureaucratic apparatus, mostly connected to administration of conquered territories) (3, +5);
- The Russian Orthodox Church (bitterly divided between the Nonpossessors and the Josephites, and along other lines as well (Judaizer heresy is still around); also, traditionally dominated by/supportive of the Great Prince, since the Metropolitan of Kiev resides in Moscow) (6, +2);
- Peasants (almost exclusively serfs to the state, the boyars, the dvoryans, the bishops or the monasteries; almost always insignificant) (10, +1).Thanks very much.

Awesome job with the stats, although I don't know exactly what some of the stats mean. But still, I can guess what they mean, and Ryukyu seems fine.Some pages back there is a rules draft that should explain the stats.

I am a little lost, do you need anything from me Birdy?I'll let you know when I post a needs list this weekend.

Safavid Order factions

Qizilbash - A militant Shiite group that has rallied to support the young leader of the Safavid Order in his bid for power. They are primarily made up of Turcoman tribes from Eastern Anatolia and Azerbajian. +7 +9

Peasants - Centuries of Sunni rule followed by non-Muslim Mongol hegemony left fertile ground for new teachings, and Ismail has found significant support in Azerbajian for his new Shahdom. +8 +6

That's pretty much it, though there'll be Persian nobles, merchants, and the christian minorities. Right now, the Safavids are pretty tiny though.

I'll make them work for now and as you grow (if you grow) we can expand the list.

Fanatical Turcoman Shiite holy warrior.

Player Opening!

Because Silver is no longer able to play as the Ottomas, Azale has taken over that nation, leaving China open. This is a grand opportunity to run a large and powerful nation, but it is not for everyone. If you are interested in playing China you can post here or pm me.

You should have some knowledge of chinese history and the world as it was at the end of the 15th C. Preliminary stats for china were posted on the previous page.

I will leave the position open for a few days so everyone gets a chance to see the announcement.

Fingers crossed we have a decent China/Far West Asian presence this time around :thumbsup:

Fingers crossed we have a decent China/Far West Asian presence this time around :thumbsup:

Agreed, because we all know what happened last time :mischief:

I wish you had taken China (I know you were too long investing into Ayyullitia by the time it lost its player)

You took over the mantle of "Something in Asia to poke or fear" though. Did almost fill the gap.

Well if you will do that... then I will choose an Irish tribe. Nothing beats a unification war. Especially when England threatens us. ;)

What do you mean threaten? England already owns ireland at this point, anyone trying to unify ireland will be rightly stomped on as rebel scum :).

The various irish groups should be in Englands stats as factions it barely controls. Its in a personally union, just the irish barely pay attention (which the English don't mind, as the point of having Ireland is more to ensure that no one else can use it as a base rather than as a settler destination at this point, it being a Scottish King who would restart the Plantations).

The only way Ireland is being unified is in a union with England. :devil:


You like how it already is by this point! Splitting it by the old kingdoms is also silly (especially the poopy EU2 borders of such). This is closer to how it would look:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png

I think I shall attempt to take China this time.
I haven't had my hands on an Asian country in a while - and I"ll try to make alex proud. :D

You like how it already is by this point! Splitting it by the old kingdoms is also silly (especially the poopy EU2 borders of such). This is closer to how it would look:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png

That's my mistake then, I was kind of confused as to whether or not it was owned by England. :) I'll be editing the English stats then.

It has been a bad weekend for game progress. My mother in law had a stroke (not too severe) and we have spent most of our time at the hospital. The next few days will be all about finding rehab care etc.

She's 95 and has been living on her own until now. Big changes coming.

Wow, just wow :eek:

Oh man sorry to hear that. Well best of luck to you.

Luckymoose have you posted spanish factions with loyalty and size? I couldn't find them. Please re-post or post as appropriate. Thanks.

Luckymoose have you posted spanish factions with loyalty and size? I couldn't find them. Please re-post or post as appropriate. Thanks.

Sorry, Luckymoose asked me to do them for him and I forgot.


-Ruler: Ferdinand II of Aragon/Isabella of Castile as co-rulers 5/1
-Aragon Nobles: 4/2 (to Ferdinand II)
-Castile Nobles: 4/2 (to Isabella); Castile and Aragon were ruled seperately at this point with the nobles loyal to their soverign, not necessary their spouse
-Catholic Church: 5/5 there is an Inquisition, but as that is entirely under the Church, it didn’t seem necessary to separate it. Just keep in mind the church’s loyalty is bought with pagan blood.
-Non-Catholics: -4/3, the Jews and Muslims of the country
-Peasants: 3/10, the Christians of the country



Also, as a note, you need to redo the sizes for all the nations I produced, as I misunderstood you, giving you power rather than size (I noticed this when noticing for Japan the Daimyo’s were size 6, when they are a small caste). Frankly, I am not going to bother going back and changing them because I dislike how you are doing it, and so have no motivation to change them. :p

What about my favorite privilege protecting Cortes? Surely they deserve an honorable mention?

What about my favorite privilege protecting Cortes? Surely they deserve an honorable mention?

I had reached the limit of allowed factions, so I was faced with a choice of either combining Castile/Aragon nobles, which I didn't want to do because they were still distinct groups with the possibility of the crowns seperating again or leave off the Cortes.


Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, the Catholic Monarchs, started a specific policy to diminish the power of the bourgeoisie and nobility. They greatly reduced the powers of the Cortes to the point where they simply rubberstamped the monarch's acts, and brought the nobility to their side. One of the major points of friction between the Cortes and the monarchs was the power of raising and lowering taxes. It was the only matter that the Cortes had under some direct control; when Queen Isabella wanted to fund Christopher Columbus's trip, she had a hard time battling with the bourgeoisie to get the Cortes' approval.

Though I acknowledge that taxation power is pretty important...meh, I guess it is a judgment call and can go either way.

Sorry, Luckymoose asked me to do them for him and I forgot.


-Ruler: Ferdinand II of Aragon/Isabella of Castile as co-rulers 5/1
-Aragon Nobles: 4/2 (to Ferdinand II)
-Castile Nobles: 4/2 (to Isabella); Castile and Aragon were ruled seperately at this point with the nobles loyal to their soverign, not necessary their spouse
-Catholic Church: 5/5 there is an Inquisition, but as that is entirely under the Church, it didn’t seem necessary to separate it. Just keep in mind the church’s loyalty is bought with pagan blood.
-Non-Catholics: -4/3, the Jews and Muslims of the country
-Peasants: 3/10, the Christians of the country



Also, as a note, you need to redo the sizes for all the nations I produced, as I misunderstood you, giving you power rather than size (I noticed this when noticing for Japan the Daimyo’s were size 6, when they are a small caste). Frankly, I am not going to bother going back and changing them because I dislike how you are doing it, and so have no motivation to change them. :pThanks for Spain.

If you've told me about your dislike for my approach, please point me to the post or if you haven't, please tell me and feel free to offer a variation.

Semi-true, they had lost power, but they were by no means broken.

House of Habsburg/Hapsburg (Rulers): Technically, Frederick III Habsburg is head of the House, and Holy Roman Emperor, in 1490, though in reality, the Habsburgs are lead by Maximillian I Habsburg. (L: 5 S: 1)
Clergy (Catholic): The Church has a fairly large amount of sway over the rabidly Catholic Habsburgs. (L: 4 S: 6)
Austrian Peasantry: Peasants are malcontents. Nothing more to it. (L: 2 S: 10)
Dutch Nobles: Not too fond of being ruled by the Habsburgs, and especially not fond of Maximillian. (L: -2 S: 4)
Dutch Free Cities: See above, but substitute "free city" for "noble". Their goals don't also agree with those of the Dutch nobles, either, and neither group really aims for a unified Dutch state, they just want the Habsburgs out. (L: -2 S: 3)

Y'all should feel free to tell me any of that needs changing, but I put peasants as 0 loyalty because I figured they don't care all that much, and the Dutch at -2 because that seemed right. But there is no research gone into that, so feel free to change. The same goes for size, all of which was chosen at random.

@Strategos: Thanks.

Hey birdji... Are there any European powers left to lead if this starts or are all of them called for?

Hey birdji... Are there any European powers left to lead if this starts or are all of them called for?

Pretty much only German and Italian states.

Pretty much only German and Italian states.
Which Italian ones?

Is there a current map of the coming NES?

Which Italian ones?

Is there a current map of the coming NES?

There is a map already floating around somewhere. I am pretty sure the Italian state spots still unoccupied are Florence, Milan and MAYBE Sicily, though that might be combined with Spain.

If you are interested in Germany, everything but Brandenburg (me) is open.

There is a map already floating around somewhere. I am pretty sure the Italian state spots still unoccupied are Florence, Milan and MAYBE Sicily, though that might be combined with Spain.

If you are interested in Germany, everything but Brandenburg (me) is open.

I did not know Milan was still open! If possible Bird could I take that instead?

If yes, Ireland will be open.

Which Italian ones?

Is there a current map of the coming NES?

Naples, Papal States, Florence, Savoy. Map here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203944&d=1234743220)


Thanks for Spain.

If you've told me about your dislike for my approach, please point me to the post or if you haven't, please tell me and feel free to offer a variation.

I mentioned it to you in chat one night, basically it is the same issue as das:


It seems that strength would work better than size, as peasants are very numerous and usually very powerless, whereas most noble groups are comparatively small, but far more powerful. This would be far more useful for determining their actual political significance than raw numbers, I would think.

The impression I got in the chat was that the “Influence” stat would solve this kind of problem, but looking at the influence stat for the samples you posted, I don’t see that at all. All it has done is made me more confused at what exactly the influence stat is measuring.

I did not know Milan was still open! If possible Bird could I take that instead?

If yes, Ireland will be open.I have no problem with you switching to Milan.

Naples, Papal States, Florence, Savoy. Map here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=203944&d=1234743220)

I mentioned it to you in chat one night, basically it is the same issue as das:

The impression I got in the chat was that the “Influence” stat would solve this kind of problem, but looking at the influence stat for the samples you posted, I don’t see that at all. All it has done is made me more confused at what exactly the influence stat is measuring.Thanks; as I have been building the individual nation stats and the factions for them, I run into some problems in they way things calculate (or don't actually) and so I am taking another look at the factions and the way they are built. I am very open to your (and das's or others) conceptual suggestions and other ideas on how to measure factions and their relations to the rulers and nation.

I want to make this aspect of the game work well am willing to spend thetime to try and get it right. If you have ideas, please post or pm them to me when you can. Thanks. If youhave questions, please post them. I expect to be back on later tonight.

Which Italian ones?

Is there a current map of the coming NES?See strategos post above for the map.

Bavaria, is open too.

Question, since I'm not sure - hasn't Denmark already sold the Orkneys and co. to Scotland?

Question, since I'm not sure - hasn't Denmark already sold the Orkneys and co. to Scotland?
Orkney and Shetland have been territories of the Scottish Crown for a few decades.

I was sure that was the situation. I mentioned it since it's a minor chance on the map that has to be done. :)

Thanks, I will make the change.

So, how are the stats coming along? Any specific regions or countries done?

So, how are the stats coming along? Any specific regions or countries done?My mother in law's stroke has been pretty time consuming since Saturday. We have to find a place for her to go once she leaves the rehab center where she is now. I scheduled two days off this week (tomorrow and Friday) to work on getting the game ready, but it looks like I will have to spend them dealing with medical issues. :(

My mother in law's stroke has been pretty time consuming since Saturday. We have to find a place for her to go once she leaves the rehab center where she is now. I scheduled two days off this week (tomorrow and Friday) to work on getting the game ready, but it looks like I will have to spend them dealing with medical issues. :(

Sorry to here that man. Take as much time as needed. :(

Current list of players:

Changes in Red

Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Nordstream
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li
Milan: Germanicus12

Moscow: das
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Safavids: Shadowbound
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice

Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs; Adrogans

European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Other choices still open:
China: Thlayli has first option, if he doesn't take it its open.
Ireland
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Mayan revival

Sultanate of Delhi:
Malacca Sultanate
Choose one not on the list if you like.


I am restructuring factions around loyalty and power (and not size) where “power” is the ability of that faction to cause trouble if it were disloyal and to support stability if it is loyal. I am using a zero sum scoring so that all faction power scores will add to 10. One faction’s gain will mean another’s loss. Peasant factions will have a power score of zero until they revolt. There is no need to repost your faction scores unless you want to. When I post pre-game stats you can see what I determined for your factions and let me know if I am way off base.

Faction information needed:
I need factions with loyalty and power for these nations:

England: Lightfang
Portugal: Warhead
Ayutthaya: Condor green

European Banker: Masada (need name and 2-3 cities where you have offices)
English Banker: Alex944 (need name and 2-3 cities where you have offices)


If you need help, ask in the thread.

:hatsoff: to The Strategos for his help with factions.

Hi can I join this?

Of course. What nations are you thinking about?

Bavaria would be good if its ok.

English Banker Alex994: James W. Lee (London, Antwerp, and Lisbon)

Bavaria would be good if its ok.Bavaria is fine. You will be in the middle of Europe among serval other small nation players: Brandenburg, Milan, Venice, Genoa and then the more powerful Austria, Kalmar and France.

English Banker Alex994: James W. Lee (London, Antwerp, and Lisbon)Hmmm....Lee sounds suspiciously foreign. ;)

Game status:

I am working on the starting stats and have "finished" 11 of 30 players. It is slow going (~45 minutes/nation) because each nation has many individualized stats and I have to keep everything in balance across nations that span the spectrum from very small to gigantic. NPC stats will follow after the weekend.

Map: Known world just needs a few cities; Unknown lands need some work, but nothing too significant.

Rules: Need a few adjustments and updates so they match the way the stats work. Bankers and HRE need sections.

I will open a game thread this weekend, but keep it locked. That way I can stock it slowly as I have time. Players will be able to view stats & rules and then comment or ask questions in this thread. I want people to pay particular attention to their factions.

I will open a game thread this weekend, but keep it locked. That way I can stock it slowly as I have time. Players will be able to view stats & rules and then comment or ask questions in this thread. I want people to pay particular attention to their factions.

Stupid Mod modding a NES *grumblesyouhaveitwaytoeasygrumble*

Stupid Mod modding a NES *grumblesyouhaveitwaytoeasygrumble*
What till yousee what happens to spammy OOC posts. :mischief:

Player changes have been updated on the previous page.

-Nordstream added as Bavaria
-Banana Lee changed back to the Pope from China
-China is open

Hmmm....Lee sounds suspiciously foreign. ;)

Lee is a perfectly, if a bit rare, normal Anglo-Saxon surname :p

There's nothing wrong with Lee, BJ :P

Edited factions to account for power:
-Faction (Loyalty, Power)
-Grandmaster (Johann von Tiefen) and Prussian Knights (4,3)
-Livonian Order Knights (3,2)
-Prussian non-Order gentry (1,2)
-City burghers of Livonia and Prussia, and merchants (-3,2)
-Catholic clergy (1,1)

Thanks xcl

I'd like to join as Ireland. (Totally inexperienced player, be nice to me ^_^)

I'd like to join as Ireland. (Totally inexperienced player, be nice to me ^_^)

Not a problem, but noted earlier in this thread there was a discussion about Ireland and how disunited it was at this time. Maybe 10 pages back?? I'll look for the post and create a link here. The discussion begins here and runs for a page or so.

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/bts/updated.gif http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7776342&postcount=582

Your first task will be to unite the nation.


Lord Joakim: I need the name of your king. The faction list only has "King Almighty".

Okay then, sounds fun. What happened to germanicus?

Okay then, sounds fun. What happened to germanicus?He changed to Milan.

What starting year was this again? 1490?

What starting year was this again? 1490?Yes....xcl

Stuck in Pi I need the king of Poland please.

Well a quick check got me this:

Lithuania and Poland - Casimir IV, Grand Prince of Lithuania (1440-1492), King of Poland (1447-1492)

Well a quick check got me this:

Lithuania and Poland - Casimir IV, Grand Prince of Lithuania (1440-1492), King of Poland (1447-1492)

That will do thanks!

Apparently Poland went from sharing a king with Hungary to a Union with Lithuania at this time.

If I understand this timeline

Hans of Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_of_Denmark). :)

Apparently Poland went from sharing a king with Hungary to a Union with Lithuania at this time.

If I understand this timeline
No. The kings of Hungary at one point held the Bohemian throne, and in fact still do as of 1490, but not that of Poland, or at least not in the 15th century. Polono-Magyar relations are generally oppositional during this time, TBH, especially since the Poles and the Hungarians just got done fighting a war over Bohemia (namely, the series of interventions that ensued when George of Podebrad managed to take over Bohemia...interesting conflict, look it up) in the 1470s. This was part of Corvinus' grand plan of "be a military genius but diplomatically piss off every single neighboring country", which worked really well until he died.

Anyway, the union with Lithuania is by now 105 years old, since Grand Duke Jogaila/Jagiello succeeded to the Polish throne, having wed Jadwiga, underage queen of Poland.

In case it is needed,

Japan
Monarch - Go-Tsuchimikado, Emperor of Japan (1464-1500)
Shogun (Ashikaga) - Ashikaga Yoshitane, Shogun of Japan (1490-1493)

List of state leaders in 1490 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_leaders_in_1490)

This may be useful for other people!!

Nice list thanks!

Getting more an more exciting.

This forum needs a decent NES!

May I join as the Malacca Sultanate?

yes you can. Welcome.

Bavaria does not seem to be on the map?

Bavaria does not seem to be on the map?
I will add it in the next map post.

Current list of players:

Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Ireland: T_F
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Nordstream
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li
Milan: Germanicus12

Moscow: das
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs Which name do you prefer?
Denmark--Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim Which name do you prefer?
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Safavids: Shadowbound
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice

Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs: Adrogans

European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Faction information needed:
I need factions with loyalty and power for these nations:

England: Lightfang
Portugal: Warhead
Ayutthaya: Condor green

European Banker: Masada (need name and 2-3 cities where you have offices)

Ming China player still needed!

Choose you nation's color

Choices will be be made in groups. When the immediately group above you has one nation left unchosen, the next group may start choosing. It is frst come, first served within groups. Light, medium or dark X is the easiest for me. I use gimp, so if you have a very specific color, show it so I can find it in gimp. If you don't care about color, say so and you'll go to the end. Please don't choose a color that is very close to your neighbor's. No black. No ocean colored or close to ocean colored so that its confusing.

Group 1
France: The Strategos
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Egypt: Abaddon
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Moscow: das
Austria: Fantasmo

Group 2
Spain: Lucky moose
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Austria: Fantasmo
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark--Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim
Aztecs: Adrogans

Group 3
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Milan: Germanicus12
Pope: Banana Lee
Venice: Matt0088
Safavids: Shadowbound
Vijayanagar: Sp1023

Group 4
Portugal: Warhead
Genoa: Charles Li
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou
Ethiopia: Yui108
Songhai: Frozen in Ice

Group 5
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ireland: T_F
Bavaria: Nordstream
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Inka: Soldierchild

I assume you don't need the names for anyone else?

Incidentally, are you or are you not going to put in the many post-Golden Horde Khanates? I could provide some basic info on them if you need, including rulers.

Oh, and:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Russian_coa_1882.gif

Coat of arms golden, as adapted in 1472 by Grand Prince of Moscow Ivan III, Master of the Entire Rus.

Green, not as bright as lime green but not as dark as forest green

10chairacters

If you still need a Ming China could I be that?

I assume you don't need the names for anyone else?

Incidentally, are you or are you not going to put in the many post-Golden Horde Khanates? I could provide some basic info on them if you need, including rulers.

Oh, and:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Russian_coa_1882.gif

Coat of arms golden, as adapted in 1472 by Grand Prince of Moscow Ivan III, Master of the Entire Rus.Yes I will add some of the Khanates and will use what information you provide. Thanks.

As for other names, I think I am ok. As I do the stats, I find little holes. Europe is just about finished, as is the far east.

If you still need a Ming China could I be that?
Since we have no other takers, that is fine with me. It may be an unruly beast, but should be fun. I'll make the changes.

Since we have no other takers, that is fine with me. It may be an unruly beast, but should be fun. I'll make the changes.

I look forward to the challenge. :D

Beej.. I thought you were going to be wary of a newbie taking control of such a powerful nation? :sad:

No offence Nord.. just some bad history.

Also, Egypt would like to be a few deep purpley red.. i'll see if i can find a pic

Beej.. I thought you were going to be wary of a newbie taking control of such a powerful nation? :sad:

No offence Nord.. just some bad history.

Also, Egypt would like to be a few deep purpley red.. i'll see if i can find a pic

Nobody else seems to want China and I won't let him get too crazy. Color noted.

The blue in our flag or as close as one can get.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/f/fr-3b.gif

Will you activly play NPC's ?

Will you activly play NPC's ?
I will try where it seems important. India and central Asia are the only places with serious NPCs; a few in Italy.

Good show. I am very nonpussed why people don't chose a power like China.

Nobody else seems to want China and I won't let him get too crazy. Color noted.

Aww so you wont let me build a bridge to America? :( ;)

I think many of us want a challenge. Or at least a change.

Though I am playing outside my usual bailiwick. (I tend to Euro and Japan/China/Korea)

Well, in the days of yore, I used to play Asia very often. I figured I'd go to Europe and see what all the fuss is about.

I started my NESing in Egypt.. may as well end it.

I'll take dark gray...As close to black as you'll allow in fact.

Edit: Though if you decide want to keep ALL grayish colors away from players, I'll take a deep dark blue.

I guess I'll take that same colour as I had in BirdNES 1, since it brings back such comforting memories of, you know... winning stuff.

So that hideous slightly-darker-than-pea-green green, if you please.

Group 1
France: The Strategos—deep blue
Brandenburg: Bombshoo-- dark gray...As close to black as you'll allow in fact.
Egypt: Abaddon--deep purpley red
Ottoman Turks: Azale--Green, not as bright as lime green but not as dark as forest green
Moscow: das
Austria: Fantasmo-- hideous slightly-darker-than-pea-green green

Group 2
Spain: Lucky moose
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark--Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim
Aztecs: Adrogans

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3317064747_d0e7c4e141_o.png

that kinda muted orangey red there or any dark red

reconsidered

And What does that mean?

Teutonic Order would be the best name; Prussia is a construct that doesn't exist for another thirty years. ;)

As for coloration, the only ones that make sense for the Teutonic Order are black and white, TBH. Since neither of those is likely, and since bombshoo has conveniently stolen my gray (way to totally ignore the Brandenburg/Prussia dichotomy there dude :mad: :p), I suppose I could always use the shade of purple that Gallien/Thuringia had in AFSNES I. Good memories.

Teutonic Order would be the best name; Prussia is a construct that doesn't exist for another thirty years. ;)

As for coloration, the only ones that make sense for the Teutonic Order are black and white, TBH. Since neither of those is likely, and since bombshoo has conveniently stolen my gray (way to totally ignore the Brandenburg/Prussia dichotomy there dude :mad: :p), I suppose I could always use the shade of purple that Gallien/Thuringia had in AFSNES I. Good memories.Could you be more specific or give me a link?

Silvery grey perhaps?

Could you be more specific or give me a link?
I am saddened that you need one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=168766&d=1202074179).
Silvery grey perhaps?
NEVER! DEATH BEFORE COMPROMISE! :ar15:

I'd Like a forest green or a sage green if possible. Aztecs always seem to be green.

I am saddened that you need one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=168766&d=1202074179).
That raspberry color around the Mediterranean?

[QUOTE=Dachs;7823290]I am saddened that you need one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=168766&d=1202074179).

Wow is it tradition to have a crazy Tibet in all of these? There is a big Tibet in Crystallization II also but this one takes the cake. Persia thing is big also. I think the colors are kinda ugly though. Painfully bright.

NESers are passionate about old great games. :)

In this case, it is not Persia, but Akkad. Though Bird is right, AFSNES was fantastic. Long live Archelus I, Emperor of Tartessos and the Hellenes.

And no, Bird, he's referring to the color in eastern France/western Germany. The raspberry is my responsibility. :p

And no, Bird, he's referring to the color in eastern France/western Germany.Ah the periwinkle nation. Got it.

Heh, the Periwinkle Nation just sounds so underwhelming.

I'll take any shade of green, preferably the one on this flag: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Flag_of_Leinster.svg

Heh, the Periwinkle Nation just sounds so underwhelming.But Dachs is not....

I'll take any shade of green, preferably the one on this flag: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Flag_of_Leinster.svgI'll make a note of it, but your group is not up yet. :)

Oh, whoops :blush:
Wasn't paying attention.

House: House of Zilberschlag
Current head: Amsel Zilberschlag
Head-office: Lübeck
Sub-Offices: Novgorod, London and Antwerp

Heh, the Periwinkle Nation just sounds so underwhelming.
Considering that it went from control of about a fifth of modern France, surrounded by roughly equivalent rivals, to having no invasion threats whatsoever and asserting its influence over neighboring states (plus planning for an invasion of southern France at the time) in seventy years of truly sexy Dark Age warfare, I think it's a reasonable accomplishment. Didn't have to rely on allies, either. :smug:

What happened that could possibly have caused the Tibet thing to become massive? And that Madagadscarian empire is just strange. What do the different colors around the cities mean? What do the squares mean?

What happened that could possibly have caused the Tibet thing to become massive? And that Madagadscarian empire is just strange. What do the different colors around the cities mean? What do the squares mean?
Since I would prefer not to further derail this thread, these (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228853) links (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240367) may help, and further questions can be asked in the While We Wait thread. :)

Considering that it went from control of about a fifth of modern France, surrounded by roughly equivalent rivals, to having no invasion threats whatsoever and asserting its influence over neighboring states (plus planning for an invasion of southern France at the time) in seventy years of truly sexy Dark Age warfare, I think it's a reasonable accomplishment. Didn't have to rely on allies, either. :smug:

I meant the phrase 'periwinkle nation', with no reference to you or the nation, sounds underwhelming. (Probably should have put it in quotes.) Regardless of its periwinkle color, the nation it self sounds impressive.

@Nordstream

A critical thinker we could use more you :)

Teutonic Order would be the best name; Prussia is a construct that doesn't exist for another thirty years. ;)

As for coloration, the only ones that make sense for the Teutonic Order are black and white, TBH. Since neither of those is likely, and since bombshoo has conveniently stolen my gray (way to totally ignore the Brandenburg/Prussia dichotomy there dude :mad: :p), I suppose I could always use the shade of purple that Gallien/Thuringia had in AFSNES I. Good memories.

Brandenburg was dark red at this time, and since that seemed overused already, I went with the Hohenzollern coat of arms. ;)

To be honest I didn't even consider the Teutonic Order's flag when I was thinking about it. Since I took dark gray, why don't you take dark white or buttermilk color like commonly used for Austria in some NESes? There is also always the gold accents they have on their flag if I remember right.

dark white

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you an oxymoron.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you an oxymoron.

Well if I say light gray, it will seem like I mean the color that is always used for NPC or undeveloped nations. I really don't know the name of that whitish (but still easily distinguishable) color often used of Austria.

Cream maybe?

Off-White would probably be the best terminology.

Oooh, off-white. That sounds better than my dumb original idea.

Question, Birdjag: why are you giving us choice of color anyway?

Moscow: das

I posted right after you, actually. It's gold.

Well if I say light gray, it will seem like I mean the color that is always used for NPC or undeveloped nations. I really don't know the name of that whitish (but still easily distinguishable) color often used of Austria.

Iggy's right, it's off-white.

I was gonna ask for Austria to be a colour like that, but I know that would have made me want to conquer and make my first (NESing) Big White Blob.

Oooh, off-white. That sounds better than my dumb original idea.

Question, Birdjag: why are you giving us choice of color anyway?
Because I perfer to choose my own colors.

Mucovy: Gold I guess I missed it.
Teurtonic Order: off white (to the warm side rather than the cool side)

I will continue to refere to said nation as the "dark-white"

Group 1
France: The Strategos—deep blue
Brandenburg: Bombshoo-- dark gray...As close to black as you'll allow in fact.
Egypt: Abaddon--deep purpley red
Ottoman Turks: Azale--Green, not as bright as lime green but not as dark as forest green
Moscow: das—gold
Austria: Fantasmo-- hideous slightly-darker-than-pea-green green

Group 2
Spain: Lucky moose--?????????
England: Lightfang--?????????
Scotland: Foolish Icarus--muted orangey red or any dark red
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs—off white
Denmark--Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim--?????????
Aztecs: Adrogans-- forest green or a sage green

Just out of interest, was there any order in which nations are picking colours?

Just out of interest, was there any order in which nations are picking colours?Not much. Strategos was first because of all the effort he put into helping me with factions. The latest joiners were in the last group.

LIGHTFANG'S ENGLAND STUFF

Color: The beautiful red in the flag would be the best. Any kind of red would do, however.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6684/englandflag.png

Factions

I'm making a change and adding Ireland, because, as Dis has pointed out (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7799187&postcount=628), Ireland is in a Personal Union with England at this point.

Also, I'm just making these numbers up, so please, fix them, if you see a mistake.

1. Rulers - Henry VII and the House of Tudor, with Lancaster and York support. (4,5)
2. Pretenders - Includes Perkin Warbeck and his supporters (certain nobles, foreign powers). (-5,3)
3. Peasants - What more can we say? They're pretty poor. (0,9)
4. English nobles, who have gained some measure of autonomy during the War of the Roses. (3,4)
5. The Irish, who are, in a typically Irish fashion, pretty resistant to the idea of English rule over Ireland. (-4,8)
6. The Church of England - Under Catholic control but includes religious groups such as the Lollards who would be a precursor to the Reformation. (3,2)

Thank you. Most player stats will be up for review later today.

Sweet! can't wait :D

When "worlds" collide?

Worlds seems an off choice. I know its a "big" name.. not sure if it makes much sense for this NES.


IMO.

You need a better name.

Reminds me of the SpongeBob BC rap with the caveman and the robot.

IT'S HERE GUYS IT'S HERE

it's here

Reminds me of the SpongeBob BC rap with the caveman and the robot.

For some reason I feel like I should remember this, yet I don't. :crazyeye:

Anyways, I'm fine with the name. It could be called "BirdNES3: Purple Pants of Outer Space" for all I care.

Taking advantage of the mod power for the NES eh Bird? ;)