The name is good as it is. Some people may disagree, but Asia, Europe and the Americas at this age could essentially be on different worlds :p

And why does England have so little income (25) in the stats? :p

What exactly is up with Ireland anyways?

And why does England have so little income (25) in the stats? :p
Kalmar has 2. :lol:

Shouldn't Ireland be under my control? :mad:

;)

And yeah, England's a poor, poor country. :(

And how exactly are treasury amounts calculated?

And why does England have so little income (25) in the stats? :p

What exactly is up with Ireland anyways?

Many incomes are very low it is an artifact of the "start" and the need to balance economies across a very wide span from tiny Ryukyu all the way to massive China. I expect that as players spend money incomes will rise. Treasuries should mitigate that a bit and provide for the first turn or two.

Be more specific about Ireland please.

Well, I admit I was rather confused over the discussion involving Ireland and thought it was established that Ireland was in a personal union with England :confused:

BTW Portugal is not finished yet, I still need factions.

Treasuries are somewhat arbitrary. I have more tweaking to do, but need to finish my coparison tab so Ican see all nations in one place. I haven't done that yet. That lets me see the "strange" stats that are out of whack.

Well, I admit I was rather confused over the discussion involving Ireland and thought it was established that Ireland was in a personal union with England :confused:

I re-read the posts and came to the conclusion that such an idea was mostly an English fantasy. But since we have an Irish player, He needs something to play with. ;)

Has China been reserved yet? It doesn't look like it and I'd like it.

I re-read the posts and came to the conclusion that such an idea was mostly an English fantasy. But since we have an Irish player, He needs something to play with. ;)

Well, while England may have lost de facto control over most of Ireland with the Earl of Kildare having control, it should still be taken into consideration that England is still the de jure ruler of Ireland: the Lordship of Ireland.

Treasuries are somewhat arbitrary. I have more tweaking to do, but need to finish my coparison tab so Ican see all nations in one place. I haven't done that yet. That lets me see the "strange" stats that are out of whack.

Yes, we at #NES chat noticed plenty of countries that needed "tweaking" ;)


But a more fundamental problem is that the incomes are across the board too low, or else you need to make the currency stronger (i.e. able to buy more). Based on your earlier posted rules, 1 man=1 gold. So, for example, to get to 1494 Italian War numbers as France (~25,000) I have to spend all my Treasury, Income, and give my entire income to cover the principle (not including interest charged) borrowed from banks for the next 30 years. So in other words, if you want to embark on a war, you can have one turn of war every seven turns and do nothing else except pay for that war during those seven turns.

Yeah, please make war possible, if expencive!

Thanks for letting me keep Ireland. ^_^

Plus, reading on Wikipedia had led me to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that this was the end of the period of the weakest English control over Ireland, with England being distracted by the Wars of the Roses. England's attempt to reestablish control over Ireland begins four years after our NES.

And de jure rule doesn't mean very much without some force to back it up. ^_^

Has China been reserved yet? It doesn't look like it and I'd like it.Nordstream asked for it yesterdayand I gave it to him. If he is willing to negotiate, go for it.

Yes, we at #NES chat noticed plenty of countries that needed "tweaking" ;)


But a more fundamental problem is that the incomes are across the board too low, or else you need to make the currency stronger (i.e. able to buy more). Based on your earlier posted rules, 1 man=1 gold. So, for example, to get to 1494 Italian War numbers as France (~25,000) I have to spend all my Treasury, Income, and give my entire income to cover the principle (not including interest charged) borrowed from banks for the next 30 years. So in other words, if you want to embark on a war, you can have one turn of war every seven turns and do nothing else except pay for that war during those seven turns.I actually have a way of boosting all incomes from a single cell. Once I get all the stats done, India and south Asia yet to do, I will look at the whole picture.

But keep in mind that as you spend money on your economies, incomes will rise. Ships, soldiers and cannon are the only "fixed price" items. In any case, all thoughts are welcome at this point. :)

Nordstream asked for it yesterdayand I gave it to him. If he is willing to negotiate, go for it.

Ol' Nordo is listed as having Bavaria, though. Anyway, if he wants to keep China then... I believe you mentioned something about non-nation organizations? In truth I just want to play in this NES, I don't care what as.

How is so much of Ryukyu's income coming from plunder?

How is so much of Ryukyu's income coming from plunder?

Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 1648/ 0/ 2200

Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 1648/ 0/ 2200
How is so much of Ryukyu's income coming from plunder?
nom nom nom

nom nom nom:lol: I guess it helps to read carefully.

But keep in mind that as you spend money on your economies, incomes will rise. Ships, soldiers and cannon are the only "fixed price" items. In any case, all thoughts are welcome at this point. :)

Which doesn't matter to my example. If (purely hypothetical) I want to embark on an Italian campaign similar to OTL in the first turn (1494) and raised the exact same number of troops as OTL, I could only do so for one turn in exchange for being financially paralyzed for the next six turns, with all my income going to pay off the debt. That is not remotely "historical." But there is even a more fundamental objection than the "historical" card. The only way you can war without financially crippling yourself for multiple turns is to invest in the economy until your income is approximately 5,000-7,500 per turn, or, roughly double for even the richest current European nations. Now I don’t know how fast the economy goes up in your equations, but I am assuming the richest nations can’t double their economies in the matter of a turn. So basically, for the first multiple turns of the game, no one can do anything war related. Now my complaint is that why should I have to wait multiple turns before I can do what I should be able to do from the start of the game? Why must my diplomatic arsenal be without the threat of war for multiple turns? Why must the entire world be in enforced peace until we finally get our economies to where they should be at the start of the game?

Which doesn't matter to my example. If (purely hypothetical) I want to embark on an Italian campaign similar to OTL in the first turn (1494) and raised the exact same number of troops as OTL, I could only do so for one turn in exchange for being financially paralyzed for the next six turns, with all my income going to pay off the debt. That is not remotely "historical." But there is even a more fundamental objection than the "historical" card. The only way you can war without financially crippling yourself for multiple turns is to invest in the economy until your income is approximately 5,000-7,500 per turn, or, roughly double for even the richest current European nations. Now I don’t know how fast the economy goes up in your equations, but I am assuming the richest nations can’t double their economies in the matter of a turn. So basically, for the first multiple turns of the game, no one can do anything war related. Now my complaint is that why should I have to wait multiple turns before I can do what I should be able to do from the start of the game? Why must my diplomatic arsenal be without the threat of war for multiple turns? Why must the entire world be in enforced peace until we finally get our economies to where they should be at the start of the game?
You objection is a fair one and worth rectifying. I think that the solution is a combination of boosting incomes, raising treasuries and putting the bankers to work. This is exactly why I have posted the stats early.

You objection is a fair one and worth rectifying. I think that the solution is a combination of boosting incomes, raising treasuries and putting the bankers to work. This is exactly why I have posted the stats early.

A pity said bankers have no idea about their stats ;)

I wanna be a banker!

Thanks for letting me keep Ireland. ^_^

Plus, reading on Wikipedia had led me to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that this was the end of the period of the weakest English control over Ireland, with England being distracted by the Wars of the Roses. England's attempt to reestablish control over Ireland begins four years after our NES.

And de jure rule doesn't mean very much without some force to back it up. ^_^

So? :p

The English King is still the sovereign lord of Ireland and is recognized as such. The de facto independent fiefs and nobles of Ireland still owe fealty to him. Their vassal status should be under consideration and scrutinized.

Question is, is he recognized as the lord of Ireland by the Irish? I can say I'm King of the US and it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they care. If the Irish say they're part of Britain, I don't exist. If they don't, I do.

Just wanted to note that Hungary has "#VALUE!" where the income line should be in the stats.

Can't wait till Africa's stats get posted.:)

How come the Ming get no income from tribute? The Ming had a variety of tribute states. Some of them paid only once or occasionally but Korea paid almost annually as did Siam every few years and I believe Tibet, Nam Viet.

A pity said bankers have no idea about their stats ;)
Well, 'm working on them and just haven't built them yet. They will be linked to other things, and have to get those all working correctly first. they should look something like this:

James W. Lee Bankers
Cash on hand: 7,000
Loan amounts due including interest:
Scotland: 5,000 troops; Due: 1495
Ireland: 500 exploration; Due: 1500
Spain: 7,000 troops and navy; Due: 1495
France: 10,000 non specific purposes; Due: 1500

Other Income:
London: 2,000
Antwerp: 3,000
Lisbon: 1,500

Due dates are tied to turn start years
Other income is connected to regional prosperity (kinda)

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Question is, is he recognized as the lord of Ireland by the Irish? I can say I'm King of the US and it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they care. If the Irish say they're part of Britain, I don't exist. If they don't, I do.

Erm... Yes. The English Monarch has been recognized as the ruler of Ireland in name, if not in deed, since Henry II. The English monarchs simply have not had the will to enforce their said authority upon Ireland in the decades before this nes, choosing to delegate their rights to supposedly loyal vassals :p

I'm pretty much a stickler for sticking to historical facts at the beginning of a NES ;)

The English King is still the sovereign lord of Ireland and is recognized as such. The de facto independent fiefs and nobles of Ireland still owe fealty to him. Their vassal status should be under consideration and scrutinized.

Question is, is he recognized as the lord of Ireland by the Irish? I can say I'm King of the US and it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they care. If the Irish say they're part of Britain, I don't exist. If they don't, I do.Yes settling the Irish question should be a fun part of the game. :mischief:

Just wanted to note that Hungary has "#VALUE!" where the income line should be in the stats.

Can't wait till Africa's stats get posted.:)Thanks for noticiing the #value. If i can break away from here, Africa's next. :)

How come the Ming get no income from tribute? The Ming had a variety of tribute states. Some of them paid only once or occasionally but Korea paid almost annually as did Siam every few years and I believe Tibet, Nam Viet.Thank you. I will add some tribute.

Denmark's colour must be anything but pink.

EDIT: I think a colour close to red or orange would be the best though.
I prefer the name "Kalmar Union".

EDITEDIT: Wait, I just realized that the official flag of the Kalmar Union looked like this:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dnkcen/images/dk_ku.gif

Therefore, yellow is proper as well. Sorry for clustering with my wishes. :p

Africa and ME stats are up in post #2

Everyone: I have coloreed and bolded particular lines. If you have ideas about which lines should be highlighted and how, please post your thoughts.

Group 1
France: The Strategos—deep blue
Brandenburg: Bombshoo-- dark gray...As close to black as you'll allow in fact.
Egypt: Abaddon--deep purpley red
Ottoman Turks: Azale--Green, not as bright as lime green but not as dark as forest green
Moscow: das—gold
Austria: Fantasmo-- hideous slightly-darker-than-pea-green green

Group 2
Spain: Lucky moose
England: Lightfang-- The beautiful red in the flag would be the best. Any kind of red would do
Scotland: Foolish Icarus--muted orangey red or any dark red
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs—off white
Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim-- red orange; not pink
Aztecs: Adrogans-- forest green or a sage green

Group 3
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Milan: Germanicus12
Pope: Banana Lee
Venice: Matt0088
Safavids: Shadowbound
Vijayanagar: Sp1023

Group 3 is up!!!

I re-read the posts and came to the conclusion that such an idea was mostly an English fantasy. But since we have an Irish player, He needs something to play with. ;)

England has a very vague overlordship regarding Ireland in this era, but any 'Irish' player would have vastly more tenious control, so much so that having an Irish player is as silly as having a 'Germany' player.

And as having a 'Japanese' player. (I don't object to a Japanese player, but I'm saying that by your standard there shouldn't be one.)

England has a very vague overlordship regarding Ireland in this era, but any 'Irish' player would have vastly more tenious control, so much so that having an Irish player is as silly as having a 'Germany' player.
You might be right, but, it will be a good introduction for T_F and provide England a sore spot and Scotland a burr for England. :)

You might be right, but, it will be a good introduction for T_F and provide England a sore spot and Scotland a burr for England. :)

Not to mention the significant money and military advantage that both "Ireland" and Scotland possess over England :mischief:

Denmark's colour must be anything but pink.

EDIT: I think a colour close to red or orange would be the best though.
I prefer the name "Kalmar Union".

Here, edited.

Not to mention the significant money and military advantage that both "Ireland" and Scotland possess over England :mischief:
:lol: and that too!

Is my idea ok Bird?

And as having a 'Japanese' player. (I don't object to a Japanese player, but I'm saying that by your standard there shouldn't be one.)

I agree, but you could make a case for the very loose overlord of Japan being the Emperor and let them be a 'Japanese' player with crummy stats showing their lack of control. In Ireland however that position is taken by the King of England - making an Irish player far more weird.

I have already remarked that my name would not under any circumstances be Prussia; please make note of this, Birdjag. :)

I guess there will be an anachronistic Ireland player...

And since Bird is too nice there's probably no way I'll be able to unify the countries, especially since there's a Scotland player too.

:(

England is doomed to be forever poor with our piddly income.

The Bank of London will help you out... at a price.

I have a question. These banks that operate in nations territories. Can they be nationalized and their assets seized?

Yes. That is, in fact, what China did to wealthy businessmen.

Make what you will of it.

Is my idea ok Bird?Probably, I've been busy and not given it full attention.

The Bank of London will help you out... at a price.I need a bank name, and 2-3 cities where your offices are located.

Masada:
House: House of Zilberschlag
Current head: Amsel Zilberschlag
Head-office: Lübeck
Sub-Offices: Novgorod, London and Antwerp

Alex:
English Banker: James W. Lee (London, Antwerp, and Lisbon)

I guess there will be an anachronistic Ireland player...
And since Bird is too nice there's probably no way I'll be able to unify the countries, especially since there's a Scotland player too.

:(

England is doomed to be forever poor with our piddly income.No nanny NES T_F understands his situation and if he (or you for that matter) are destroyed, there will be other options. ;)

I am going to post a spreadsheet of all nations with stats so far combined for comparison. It won't have links to the source tabs like mine does, but it will be sortable and useful for folks who would like to make recomendations. It only has the most important stats.

I have already remarked that my name would not under any circumstances be Prussia; please make note of this, Birdjag. :)You are listed as Teutonic Order.

I have a question. These banks that operate in nations territories. Can they be nationalized and their assets seized?
Warning: state resources are not up to the task at this juncture!
You are listed as Teutonic Order.
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs—off white
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/rolleye0012.gif

That's ok Bird, just was anxious about it :) take your time.

[QUOTE=Dachs;7826376]Warning: state resources are not up to the task at this juncture!

Well maybe not European states. But I am the State :cool:

How come I can't quote properly???

I have a question. These banks that operate in nations territories. Can they be nationalized and their assets seized?

Yes. That is, in fact, what China did to wealthy businessmen.

Make what you will of it.At present china only has access to an NPC banker, The Bank of Birdjaguar, and I will not take kindly to being usurped. ;)

The comparison Excel sheet is attached; it is 2003 format.

[QUOTE=Dachs;7826376]Warning: state resources are not up to the task at this juncture!

Well maybe not European states. But I am the State :cool:

How come I can't quote properly???

Your "quote" left off the [ /quote] at the end. Did you use the "quote" button?

I'm perfectly fine with dying and being reincarnated as something else. I wouldn't like it, but I'm fine with it.

And if I understand correctly, are most nations running huge budget deficits, or do the upkeep numbers correspond to something else? (And is that a stupid question?)

I'm perfectly fine with dying and being reincarnated as something else. I wouldn't like it, but I'm fine with it.

And if I understand correctly, are most nations running huge budget deficits, or do the upkeep numbers correspond to something else? (And is that a stupid question?)
Upkeep costs are already deducted from income. They are listed so you can see how much more money you would have without your army and navy. ;)

@Birdjaguar

House: House of Hohenheim
Current head: Edward Hohenheim
Head-office: Zürich
Sub-Offices: Paris, London, Amsterdam

Is this acceptable?

Man, I feel stupid.

Why is so much of Ryukyu's income from plunder? That was a wrong choice of words, not me not looking at my stats.

Man, I feel stupid.

Why is so much of Ryukyu's income from plunder? That was a wrong choice of words, not me not looking at my stats.
I read somewhere that they were part of the "Japanese" raiding on chinese trade. If not, I can remove it.

EDIT: Crezth: yes it is fine.

I read somewhere that they were part of the "Japanese" raiding on chinese trade. If not, I can remove it.

EDIT: Crezth: yes it is fine.

Ryukyu paid tribute to China, and might possibly have had better relations with China than Japan. Ming China often supplied Ryukyu with ships, so I highly doubt Ryukyu could get away with such activities. Ryukyu was fairly peaceful, and focused on trade rather than war.

But I guess you could have a small amount of "plunder" from seizing wokou ships. But that would probably be fairly small.

Ryukyu paid tribute to China, and might possibly have had better relations with China than Japan. Ming China often supplied Ryukyu with ships, so I highly doubt Ryukyu could get away with such activities. Ryukyu was fairly peaceful, and focused on trade rather than war.

But I guess you could have a small amount of "plunder" from seizing wokou ships. But that would probably be fairly small.I went back tomy source and the Ryukyu were not part of the pirate raids from Japan. Sorry.

For Milan I will accept Dark Red (or maroon) if possible.

Yes. That is, in fact, what China did to wealthy businessmen.

Make what you will of it.

I'd certainly like to see a source that says that because as far as I know, no such thing was ordered by any emperor.

Birdjaguar, I'd like to take banana yellow for my colour please. :D

There's an error on Spain's stats by the name. It says Nation Spain instead of just Spain.

Also, how will you keep track of policies? Will you just remember what policies we've made? Or will you show them in our stats for everyone to see?

Denmark's colour must be anything but pink.

EDIT: I think a colour close to red or orange would be the best though.
I prefer the name "Kalmar Union".

EDITEDIT: Wait, I just realized that the official flag of the Kalmar Union looked like this:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dnkcen/images/dk_ku.gif

Therefore, yellow is proper as well. Sorry for clustering with my wishes. :p

Editedit added. I have to think the things through.

I'd certainly like to see a source that says that because as far as I know, no such thing was ordered by any emperor.

Birdjaguar, I'd like to take banana yellow for my colour please. :D

The Hongwu Emperor.

According to historian Timothy Brook, the Hongwu Emperor attempted to immobilize society by creating rigid, state-regulated boundaries between villages and larger townships, discouraging trade and travel in society not permitted by the government.[55] Hongwu attempted to instill austere values by imposing uniform dress codes, standard methods of speech, and standard style of writing classical prose that did not flaunt the skills of the highly educated.[56] His suspicion for the educated elite matched his disdain for the commercial elites, imposing inordinately high taxes upon the hotbed of powerful merchant families in the region of Suzhou in Jiangsu.[15] He also forcibly moved thousands of wealthy families from the southeast and resettled them around Nanjing in the Jiangnan region, forbidding them to move once they were settled.[15][57] To keep track of the merchants' activities, Hongwu forced them to register all of their goods once a month.[58] One of his main goals as ruler was to permanently curb the influence of merchants and landlords, yet several of his policies would eventually encourage them to amass more wealth.

Hongwu's oppressive system of massive relocation and the desire to escape his harsh taxes encouraged many to become itinerant retailers, peddlers, or migrant workers finding tenant landowners who would rent them space to farm and labor on.[59] By the mid Ming era, emperors had abandoned Hongwu's relocation scheme and instead trusted local officials to document migrant workers in order to bring in more revenue.[60] An elite of wealthy landlords and merchants reigning over land tenants, wage laborers, domestic servants, and migrant workers was hardly the vision of Hongwu's: strict adherence to the hierarchic status system of the four occupations.[61]

There's a difference between nationalising assets and imposing extremely high taxes.

The Hongwu Emperor never went as far as to seize the assets of the commercial élite. Also, the objectives of the Hongwu Emperor were to curb the influence of the merchants, not necessarily to increase his own personal wealth.
Would also appreciate the specific source of Brook so I can dig out reviews of that argument.

There's an error on Spain's stats by the name. It says Nation Spain instead of just Spain.

Also, how will you keep track of policies? Will you just remember what policies we've made? Or will you show them in our stats for everyone to see?Policiesa are not listed in the stats. You can inlcude a bit of text about them for the update and spin them anyway you want. Some may be such that they are secret, but any far reaching policy will become public. policies willa ffect stats and i will keep track of those chagnes even if you cannot see the direct effects immediately. Policies are a good way to introduce a story for the updates.

Editedit added. I have to think the things through.
OK Kalmar Union is now a yellow.

Well its on wikipedia but he did forcibly relocate them presumably they had to leave behind property and wealth when he sent them into the countryside. It doesnt seem too much like a leap of imagination to imagine he did that. Is there actually anything stopping the Emperor from doing so?

I am going to post a spreadsheet of all nations with stats so far combined for comparison. It won't have links to the source tabs like mine does, but it will be sortable and useful for folks who would like to make recomendations. It only has the most important stats.

Initiative: Poland should go down at least two; Teutonic Order down one; Spain and France up one

Prestige: Kalmar Union is about two times too high; Genoa is about three times too high; Milan should be comparable to Venice’s; France and England both could probably do with a slight boost

Culture: Genoa is too high; Milan is too low; Japan’s seems awful high

Income: Its completely broken.

Taxes: See Income

Trade: Genoa is way, way, way, way, way too high; it should be closer to…oh maybe 5. Venice is also too high if only because of how economically overpowered you’ve made it. Basically, your economy and trade numbers are broken, either you are overvaluing trade or undervaluing economy, or both. As rich as Venice was, it did not come close to matching the output a Spain or a France got from their economy.

Stability: Poland is much too stable, as are the Mameluks

Navy: Like usual you’ve overestimated Genoa

Cannons: France and the Ottomans should dominate this category, no one else was really comparable.

Well its on wikipedia but he did forcibly relocate them presumably they had to leave behind property and wealth when he sent them into the countryside. It doesnt seem too much like a leap of imagination to imagine he did that. Is there actually anything stopping the Emperor from doing so?

Good old Wikipedia, the fount of truth. The thing is, it really depends on how the historians interpret the sources. And from my own research on Ming-Qing economy, no such thing happened. So I need to see the sources and read up a bit before I comment further.

I was a bit surprised Milan was lower than Venice, historically I believe they were as strong as Venice or even a slight bit stronger. With a larger land force.

But I trust your judgment Bird... whatever it may be. Just voicing my concerns.

Good old Wikipedia, the fount of truth. The thing is, it really depends on how the historians interpret the sources. And from my own research on Ming-Qing economy, no such thing happened. So I need to see the sources and read up a bit before I comment further.

Do you by any chance have any more information about the Hongzhi Emperor? Wikipedia is rather sparse about him and Ming activities during the 1490's and early 1500's? There's not much about that in wikipedia either. Thanks I would appreciate it.

Initiative: Poland should go down at least two; Teutonic Order down one; Spain and France up one

Prestige: Kalmar Union is about two times too high; Genoa is about three times too high; Milan should be comparable to Venice’s; France and England both could probably do with a slight boost

Culture: Genoa is too high; Milan is too low; Japan’s seems awful high

Income: Its completely broken.

Taxes: See Income

Trade: Genoa is way, way, way, way, way too high; it should be closer to…oh maybe 5. Venice is also too high if only because of how economically overpowered you’ve made it. Basically, your economy and trade numbers are broken, either you are overvaluing trade or undervaluing economy, or both. As rich as Venice was, it did not come close to matching the output a Spain or a France got from their economy.

Stability: Poland is much too stable, as are the Mameluks

Navy: Like usual you’ve overestimated Genoa

Cannons: France and the Ottomans should dominate this category, no one else was really comparable.I am reworking the translation from economy to cash to keep the econ levels balanced but provide more cash. I will repost stats (and spreadsheet) when I have it done. I will address you other points as well. Thanks.

I call fail on this in a European (and probably a Chinese) context:

I have a question. These banks that operate in nations territories. Can they be nationalized and their assets seized?

Yes. That is, in fact, what China did to wealthy businessmen.

Make what you will of it.

Pray what are you going to nationalize? All you would stand to get is the premises themselves and the small reserves of ready gold and silver that might be held for day to day runnings.

You’re not really dealing with a 'bank' that accept deposits and act as a facilitator of capital to the capital hungry; in modern parlance you’re dealing with long sharks. And your dealing with loan sharks who seldom had any significant stores of hard currency (given that cash in hand not being loaned out is doing nothing) and tended to cobble together loans via the issuing of notes which might say "A may draw up to 500 guilders on B's accounts at any date subsequent to X" and through injections from repayments on other loans. You could take the notes which are effectively IOUs but anybody with a brain on the other side of the border is going to tell you to stick it and refuse to pay out.

Then we hit the problem of what exactly constitutes common knowledge in the period. Nobody I repeat nobody outside the banking families themselves and a handful of others understood how these folks worked. They were secretive. This secrecy went as far as using code in their accounts such that they were unreadable by outsiders, the Medicis did it rather too well on a number of occasions and occasionally forgot who ‘ASX1’ was for instance. Your also dealing with families which tend to be geographically separated which was normal given that the operations were family driven this necessitated having family present at all the various offices. The Rothschild’s had family members who stayed in France, the Netherlands, Prussia and Great Britain which more or less corresponds to the movements of French Huguenots after the revocation of Nantes so rounding all the family up is impractical to start with.

Even assuming you could get through even these few obstacles (and there are a great many more) your still stuck with the fact that nobody in their right minds lends to a single entity:

You nationalize Bank A, Bank A has loans to nations A - Z who then just decide to repudiate their loans because they have no real reason to pay you.

Instead of nationalization which is a stupid word in the context of the period to start with. You could repudiate your loan(s) which is not the same as a full default in that you retain some loans often to key creditors. This should however increase the cost of every single other bit of debt you take out or hold as your credit rating plummets. By rights it should cripple your capital markets if not outright kill them, stop the sale of debt unless you resort to force and seriously damage your largest creditors i.e. your own nobility.

Default makes the consequences exponentially worse you often end up with massive outflows of hard currency and all kinds of other fun things in addition to the aforementioned consequences.

I also have a few suggestions for you Birdjaguar if you care to hear them with regards to 'banking' and some assumptions that should be in place to make sure that it isn’t possible to default on us every turn.

*

As Bananalee pointed out trying to figure out the morass that is China's economy and specifically capital markets is a pain in the ass.

Is there actually anything stopping the Emperor from doing so?

Just the difficulty of actually expropriating all the liquid assets also the aforementioned issues of understanding what the hell exactly they have their fingers in.

Do you by any chance have any more information about the Hongzhi Emperor? Wikipedia is rather sparse about him and Ming activities during the 1490's and early 1500's? There's not much about that in wikipedia either. Thanks I would appreciate it.

My lecture notes are all pretty thematic (as opposed to chronological) and are on hardcopy sheets of paper.. :(

Nation: Muscovy/das
Ruler/Heir: Ivan III/
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 2/10/4
Income/Treasury/Debt: 709/3500/0
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 709/0/0/0
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 9/4/19
Stability/Policies Permitted: 5/1
Army/Navy/Cannon: 4500/0/20
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 671/1430/0
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/5-Fortifications/4-Siege
Navy Description: None/None/1-Coastal sailing
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 35%/10%/50%/30%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Orthodox/5
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Power
Daniilovichi (Ivan III Supporters) 2/1
Great Prince's Court 4/3
Local Boyars -1/2
Dvoryans (bureaucratic nobility) 5/3
Russian Orthodox Church 1/1
Serfs -1/0

Our Initiative might be worth raising by 1 point; sure, we're bloated, but we didn't create a hyper-centralised feudal state for nothing (and by virtue of having created this alone should probably have one point over Poland's adjusted score); besides, Ivan III is on a roll right now.

Kazan technically paid tribute to Muscovy by this point.

My nonexistent fleet and the fact that Ivan III was able to stage a naval raid on northern Norway in 1496 (after certain preparations, naturally) reminds me to ask you about such "nonconventional" (although actually this was pretty normal) actions as seizing and outfitting civilian vessels for military purposes, and how you intend to implement this. ;)

Poland should probably have more than 5000 men, as that's the standing army of the Grand Prince of Lithuania. I can't find any numbers for our standing army, although in this very year 64 thousand men were (apparently?) used against a medium-level provincial rebellion; most of those were feudal levies, ofcourse, but one would think that the Grand Prince of Moscow would have a larger standing army than the Grand Prince of Lithuania, given the aforementioned differences in levels of centralisation.

Not sure about this, but our Church Wealth could probably be higher; this is the golden age of Moscow's monasteries, after all, and also the reason while the Josephites/Non-Possessors and other religious disputes were such a big deal.

As to maps and charts, does this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasiy_Nikitin)'s voyage count for anything? :p Okay, this is probably stretching it.

Lastly:
Daniilovichi (Ivan III Supporters) 2/1

They are not so much his supporters as the sum of his closer and medium-range relatives some of whom had rebelled ten years ago (but backed down peacefully and without immediate reprisals after a few months of feudal hooliganism). This is the ruling dynasty of Muscovy.

Russian Orthodox Church 1/1

Should be significantly more powerful than that; certainly above the scattered and broken local boyars.

Income: Its completely broken.
Taxes: See Income


Yeah...those numbers are just a solid WTF?

My lecture notes are all pretty thematic (as opposed to chronological) and are on hardcopy sheets of paper.. :(

Whats your major? I am a dual political science/history major mostly with a focus in international relations.

Before I get into responding to the particulars, let me make a few general startements that will help clarify my answers. The initial stats are based on fixed numbers that are set to start a nation a certan level. for instance, in order to have harquebus capability a nation must have X value in weapons tech. Prestige is based on 8 scores that are fixed at the start. Now once the game starts, many key stats are recalculated based not on the original set scores, but on the spending of the player that turn. So if a player starts with a prestige score of say 12, after five years as the next turn begins, his score could easily drop to 6 or less if he spends on unprestigeous things. Now technology progress builds on a base and won't go backward. So as we set levels for the start, be aware that these levels are only for turn 1. There is lots of connectivity in the stat model and things like prestige and initiative are linked to several sources. Over a five year turn some scores decline 100% and have to be rebuilt each turn; others decline slowly so some of your previous spending is carried forward.

So when das suggests that Muscovy get a boost in initiative, that is fine, but it will not be a permanent boost not put him at a higher base. Initiative is closely loinked to factions and powerful disloyal opposition can reduce initiative.

Income is the biggest issue. Economy scores and trade scores are scaled differently. 1 point of economic score is worth more than 1 point of trade score. The range of economies is from 2-4 all the way to 100. That is a range of over 50x. Trade numbers at the same scale would be fractional in many cases. Trade comes in two varieties: regiional and trade route based. Regional trade is automatic and ongoing. Trade routes are developed by players as they see fit. The numbers there get large because there are many nations involved. So when you look at Genoa's trade score of 67, it is not 16x larger than Genoa's economy of 4. China is of course the huge outlyer in all this that skews the scale terribly.

At this point I can adjust starting incomes at levels players feel is appropriate and workable, but I need to know what those are. I tuned the economies to mimic Strategos nation list. Income is trickier, because as the game moves forward, income will be determined by economic levels, taxes, corruption and upkeep expenses and not some artificial starting point. Now if Brandenburg has an economy of 3 and needs 5,000 GD as working income (1700:1), then China comes in at 170,000 GD of income based on its economy 100. Straight scaling won't work and upkeep etc. will also have an impact.

I am set up to have a scale of diminishing returns so that smaller economies are more efficient than larger ones in turning economy points into gold. What is needed is the upper bound of such a scale. I can also break China into northern and southern economic zones at 50 each to perhaps ease the scaling.

So Iguess my question to the historians out there is what do you see as the net income (available spending) ratios between nations and what is the minimum starting amount for small nations and the reasonable upper bound for China?

Now on to the questions.
Our Initiative might be worth raising by 1 point; sure, we're bloated, but we didn't create a hyper-centralised feudal state for nothing (and by virtue of having created this alone should probably have one point over Poland's adjusted score); besides, Ivan III is on a roll right now.

Kazan technically paid tribute to Muscovy by this point.How much tribute do you suggest?

My nonexistent fleet and the fact that Ivan III was able to stage a naval raid on northern Norway in 1496 (after certain preparations, naturally) reminds me to ask you about such "nonconventional" (although actually this was pretty normal) actions as seizing and outfitting civilian vessels for military purposes, and how you intend to implement this. ;)You will just explain what you want to do in your orders and how much money or force you will be using. If you include a couple of paragraphs of story describing some aspect of the effort, that will help grease the skids of success; I will take care of the rest. Now don't expect to march a huge army across Asia and attack China or India successfully. But if you do choose such an adventure, be sure, that if you don't include a story, I will. ;)

Poland should probably have more than 5000 men, as that's the standing army of the Grand Prince of Lithuania. I can't find any numbers for our standing army, although in this very year 64 thousand men were (apparently?) used against a medium-level provincial rebellion; most of those were feudal levies, ofcourse, but one would think that the Grand Prince of Moscow would have a larger standing army than the Grand Prince of Lithuania, given the aforementioned differences in levels of centralisation.I initially kept starting army sizes small so as to not burden players with huge costs from the beginning. Armies do not represent troops on garrison or border defenses or those that are typically on a standard mission. They are the troops readily available for an active campaign that does not strip all troops from everywhere.

Not sure about this, but our Church Wealth could probably be higher; this is the golden age of Moscow's monasteries, after all, and also the reason while the Josephites/Non-Possessors and other religious disputes were such a big deal.

As to maps and charts, does this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasiy_Nikitin)'s voyage count for anything? :p Okay, this is probably stretching it.Bumped church wealth. Players will have an option to turn "wealth" into gold and pay the costs.


They are not so much his supporters as the sum of his closer and medium-range relatives some of whom had rebelled ten years ago (but backed down peacefully and without immediate reprisals after a few months of feudal hooliganism). This is the ruling dynasty of Muscovy.

Should be significantly more powerful than that; certainly above the scattered and broken local boyars.I made some adjustments.

Initiative: Poland should go down at least two; Teutonic Order down one; Spain and France up one

Prestige: Kalmar Union is about two times too high; Genoa is about three times too high; Milan should be comparable to Venice’s; France and England both could probably do with a slight boost

Culture: Genoa is too high; Milan is too low; Japan’s seems awful high

Trade: Genoa is way, way, way, way, way too high; it should be closer to…oh maybe 5. Venice is also too high if only because of how economically overpowered you’ve made it. Basically, your economy and trade numbers are broken, either you are overvaluing trade or undervaluing economy, or both. As rich as Venice was, it did not come close to matching the output a Spain or a France got from their economy.

Stability: Poland is much too stable, as are the Mameluks

Navy: Like usual you’ve overestimated Genoa

Cannons: France and the Ottomans should dominate this category, no one else was really comparable.I will tweak these. See above for trade and economies.

Thanks.

Stats for the remaining players are up, Vijay, Ayutt, Malacca. All of Asia in that spoiler have more income under a new formulation. Like Portugal, I need factions for Ayutt.

The formating errors have been fixed in my templates and will show up corrected next time. I need colors from group 3 please. No new map until I get colors. If you don't care, please post as such.

Gold for Venice please!:)

How much tribute do you suggest?

Can't seem to find any numbers, but have confirmed that since 1488 Kazan is a tributary/puppet state that occasionally tries to break free. But something within 100-200 sounds reasonable.

I initially kept starting army sizes small so as to not burden players with huge costs from the beginning. Armies do not represent troops on garrison or border defenses or those that are typically on a standard mission. They are the troops readily available for an active campaign that does not strip all troops from everywhere.

Now don't expect to march a huge army across Asia and attack China or India successfully.

What I'm getting at is that historically the Muscovites could afford to throw around increasingly ridiculous numbers until that little demographic collapse at the end of Ivan IV's reign (okay, maybe throwing around ridiculous numbers of troops in all directions had something to do with that...). Technically our various neighbours had similar tendencies as well. Basically, can we raise such huge armies as long as it is in accordance with historical practice?

Also, it would probably hep to have some kind of typical "levying pool", at least in nations that rely on fixed-rate feudal levies as much as we do.

Marching to Asia is impossible on account of logistics and is probably going to be attempted at some point anyway if this lasts for long enough, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

Why did Ryukyu get an even bigger amount of plunder?

At this point I can adjust starting incomes at levels players feel is appropriate and workable, but I need to know what those are. I tuned the economies to mimic Strategos nation list. Income is trickier, because as the game moves forward, income will be determined by economic levels, taxes, corruption and upkeep expenses and not some artificial starting point. Now if Brandenburg has an economy of 3 and needs 5,000 GD as working income (1700:1), then China comes in at 170,000 GD of income based on its economy 100. Straight scaling won't work and upkeep etc. will also have an impact.

I am set up to have a scale of diminishing returns so that smaller economies are more efficient than larger ones in turning economy points into gold. What is needed is the upper bound of such a scale. I can also break China into northern and southern economic zones at 50 each to perhaps ease the scaling.

So Iguess my question to the historians out there is what do you see as the net income (available spending) ratios between nations and what is the minimum starting amount for small nations and the reasonable upper bound for China?


China actually shouldn't be that big of a problem as an upper bound (considering historically) because of their tiny tax rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Ming_Dynasty#Taxation)(3%) led to the central government not having that much money to spend. Now you could say that the China player could raise their taxes to European-like levels and thereby break the system, but I say that is what the faction system should be designed to prevent. Thus a reasonable upper bound for China to start at would be about France level or a little higher, which I think reasonably could be 10,000-15,000 range. Off the top of my head (I'll see if I can find better numbers later), 2,000-3,000 would be reasonable for the smaller bound, with about half of those totals comming from trade.

Is there an other nation free?

I would like to join the fights ;)

I cannot be bothered to argue my stats. Beej. I trust you.

So Iguess my question to the historians out there is what do you see as the net income (available spending) ratios between nations and what is the minimum starting amount for small nations and the reasonable upper bound for China?


Well China commanded 25% of the world economy at this point according to most estimates*. On the other hand the major European and Indian still counted for a lot - Spain being estimated a ~2%, England ~1% etc. So China should only be a dozen times inherently wealthier than Spain, and the smaller nations should get income bonuses due to efficiency, reduced complexity costs, and higher taxes (I'd personally do this as China having much higher maintenance costs, but you seem to be reducing income directly). Thus China should have 3-4 times as much than France at most, and so on down the pecking order.

*Their apogee of relative economic power occurring later on at the turn of the 16th century, ironically fueled by New World silver.

Current list of players:

Spain: Luckymoose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Ireland: T_F
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria:
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li
Milan: Germanicus12

Moscow: das
Teutonic Order: Dachs
Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Safavids: Shadowbound
China: Nordstream
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice

Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs: Adrogans

European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Euroepan Banker: Crezth
Pope: Banana Lee

Faction information needed:
I need factions with loyalty and power for these nations:

Portugal: Warhead
Ayutthaya: Condor green

Nations available:
Bavaria
Saxony
Various Indian nations: Rajput, Delhi, Bengal etc.
Mughals
Your ideas?

Choose you nation's color

Choices will be be made in groups. When the immediately group above you has one nation left unchosen, the next group may start choosing. It is frst come, first served within groups. Light, medium or dark X is the easiest for me. I use gimp, so if you have a very specific color, show it so I can find it in gimp. If you don't care about color, say so and you'll go to the end. Please don't choose a color that is very close to your neighbor's. No black. No ocean colored or close to ocean colored so that its confusing.

Group 1
France: The Strategos—deep blue
Brandenburg: Bombshoo-- dark gray...As close to black as you'll allow in fact.
Egypt: Abaddon--deep purpley red
Ottoman Turks: Azale--Green, not as bright as lime green but not as dark as forest green
Moscow: das—gold
Austria: Fantasmo-- hideous slightly-darker-than-pea-green green

Group 2
Spain: Lucky moose
England: Lightfang-- The beautiful red in the flag would be the best. Any kind of red would do
Scotland: Foolish Icarus--muted orangey red or any dark red
Prussia--Teutonic Knights: Dachs—off white
Kalmar Union: Lord Joakim—yellow.
Aztecs: Adrogans-- forest green or a sage green

Group 3
Venice: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Milan: Germanicus12-- Dark Red (or maroon) if possible
Pope: Banana Lee-- banana yellow
Venice: Matt0088
Safavids: Shadowbound
Vijayanagar: Sp1023

Group 4
Portugal: Warhead
Genoa: Charles Li
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou
Ethiopia: Yui108
Songhai: Frozen in Ice


****Not yet guys****
Group 5
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ireland: T_F—Rich forest green
China: Nordstream
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Japan: HMS Vanguard
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Inka: Soldierchild

Group 3 is being unresponsive, so Group 4 may choose colors too,

Strategos and Dis, thanks. Loser see above.

Oh, sorry Bird, I didn't realize that das already had gold.:crazyeye:
Regular blue for Venice then!

Can I just say dark yellow or dark gold?

Bird, could you please answer my question as to why Ryukyu still has so much income from plunder?

I'm sorry that I can't comment on the other stat stuff. I don't have Excel, and my knowledge of Europe in this time period is iffy at best. I'll try to help where I can still.

Oh, sorry Bird, I didn't realize that das already had gold.:crazyeye:
Regular blue for Venice then!OK

Can I just say dark yellow or dark gold?Yes

Bird, could you please answer my question as to why Ryukyu still has so much income from plunder?

I'm sorry that I can't comment on the other stat stuff. I don't have Excel, and my knowledge of Europe in this time period is iffy at best. I'll try to help where I can still.Ryukyu stats will change and the plunder will go away. I am working on the income trade issues. :)

Am I still in this?

I'll take a light pink for Songhai.

Am I still in this?Hmm I don't see you on my list. Were you previously on it? If so as what nation?

I sent you the PMs.

I sent you the PMs.Yes that is right. I will send you a pm now.

Take your time, seriously. Its ok :)

Oh, sorry Bird, I didn't realize that das already had gold.

All your gold are belong to us.

Sorry. :p But speaking of gold, are the negative incomes (as well as #VALUE! in Hungary's stats) products of your blackbox'd calculations? What went wrong?

All your gold are belong to us.

Sorry. :p But speaking of gold, are the negative incomes (as well as #VALUE! in Hungary's stats) products of your blackbox'd calculations? What went wrong?
In a fresh staret NES where everyone starts out at about the same level there are few if any implicit costs and as players expand and build, cost increase accordingly.

In this game all the nations start at different places with different levels of existing "stuff" already in place. In addition, the various tech levels across the world are different and those incur different costs that are in place when we begin Army and navy costs come into play here also. Now on top of those costs we have an economic score that drives income. The initial pass at income showed that at the low economic scores the income did not support some nations existing costs. In the first posting, those showed up with negative income that still need balancing.

For those of you contemplating a simulationist NES at some time, it appears to me that each nation will have to have its own economic, income, cost formulations. One size does not fit all. I built my model as if a single approach could be fitted to each nation, but that is looking to be wrong. I am fortunate that I also built in a pretty easy way to individualize each nation if needed.

That is why I asked for ranges. If I have specific targets (like Strategos provided for the econ scores) it is much easier to make things fit. I expect that as incomes go up, I will reduce some of the treasury amounts.

das, at one point above you asked about levies. They will be available and players will just have to mobilize them and have the money to pay for them. I fully expect players to simply order and pay for whartever they want to do and I will work out the intricacies of making it happen. I want players to act like rulers and not worry about "how things happen". If you want to explore, send an expedition; if you want to bribe a faction in another country, do so. I will work out the results. Including a little story about your efforts may even carry a little weight towards its success.

EDIT: the #value is not in my model now, so it probably was a bad link that I subsequently fixed.

I've been working with the model and have made some changes that give me the following for France. Strategos is fortunate in that his tab is right next to the test tab so it was convenient to do his nation first. ;) Some of the calculations are different.

Income = Available to spend (taxes-all upkeep)
Taxes = total collections from econ + trade

That way players can see their income before upkeep costs. I also changed how army and navy upkeeep is calculated and made it simpler: x gold per soldier, x gold per cannon & x gold per ship. Previously I had based it on a % gold spent.

France/The Strategos
Ruler/Heir: Charles VIII
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 3/22/9
Income/Treasury/Debt: 10045/5000/0
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 13890/0/0/0
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 19/7/5
Stability/Policies Permitted: 3/1
Army/Navy/Cannon: 5000/35/40
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 1495/1650/700
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/5-Fortifications/5-Command
Navy Description: Galleasses/Cannon fire and boarding/5-Winds & Tides
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 30%/10%/50%/36%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Catholic/10
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Power
Charles VIII 4/4
Localized Parliaments 0/1
Catholic Church 2/2
Bourbon Nobility 0/2
Non Integrated provinces -1/1
Peasants 0/0

Nation: Muscovy/das
Ruler/Heir: Ivan III/
Initiative/Prestige/Culture: 3/10/4
Income/Treasury/Debt: 4323/7500/0
Taxes/Tribute/Plunder: 8547/500/0/0
Economy/Trade/Wealth: 9/7/19
Stability/Policies Permitted: 4/1
Army/Navy/Cannon: 15000/0/20
Upkeep: National/Army/Navy 1524/3200/0
Army Description: Harquebus/2-Bombards/5-Fortifications/4-Siege
Navy Description: None/None/1-Coastal sailing
D-tax/T-Tax/Efficiency/Corruption: 30%/10%/50%/30%
Production Skill: Artisan 3
Religion/Church Wealth: Orthodox/9
Useful Discoveries:
Maps & Charts:
Trade Routes: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Factions: Loyalty\Power
Daniilovichi "clan" (Ivan III) 2/1
Great Prince's Court 4/3
Local Boyars -1/1
Dvoryans (bureaucratic nobility) 5/2
Russian Orthodox Church 1/3
Serfs -1/0


Let me know what you think. I will post a few more here and if things seem Ok and the comments good, I will then redo all the tabs (paste half a dozen new formulas in the appropriate cells on all the tabs) and then repost all the stats.

The Daniilovichi (other than Ivan III himself and his immediate family) are much weaker now than they were half a century ago, but probably stronger than the local boyardom at the moment. The Russian Orthodox Church, despite some issues, should be more loyal than that, being the main ideological supporter of Ivan III's policies and Roman claims (by which I mean both Third Rome and descent from Augustus, Tsar of the Romans and the Entire Universe). Though, once again, the symphonia (ask Dachs) of Vasily II's reign has deteriorated somewhat. I'd give it a 2 or 3 now.

On a less self-aggrandising note, our regular tax income probably shouldn't be as close to France's; many taxes are levied upon the occasion, and on another note both our population size and probably our wealth per capita are much lower.

I was thinking that for France, the Catholic Church should be more loyal, after all the King of France (as of right now) has the power of appointment to it and so would be stocking it up with his supporters. Also “Bourbon Nobility” should just be called “Nobility,” though the Bourbons were one of the more important nobility houses, they weren’t the only ones.

Why do you, in your rules, have different types of ships listed, with different costs, but in the stats there is no differentiation? Either get rid of the differentiation or let me know exactly what is in my navy.

I am confused over the purpose of the initial treasury. If it is to lessen the gap between powers, why bother, since there was a gap in history and this is nominally a historical-based NES? If it is to give players a boost to cover what they should have, why not just give it to them to begin with? If it is to give players a little extra ability to customize their nation at the start, why don’t all nations have the same customization ability (i.e. the same treasury?)


The Daniilovichi (other than Ivan III himself and his immediate family) are much weaker now than they were half a century ago, but probably stronger than the local boyardom at the moment.

The power numbers of all the factions have to add up to 10. So if you increase the Daniilovichi, you have to correspondent decrease of another faction. By your statement, the logical choice for the decrease would be the boyars, but then that would put them at 0 power, which doesn’t really seem right. If you don’t like that handling of power, you can blame me, I was the one who pushed for that model, arguing that in this time you never gained power except at the expense of another group.

Though, once again, the symphonia (ask Dachs) of Vasily II's reign has deteriorated somewhat.
Eh? Never heard that particular term before; are you just talking about the promotion of the Metropolitan and the rejection of Florence?

The power numbers of all the factions have to add up to 10. So if you increase the Daniilovichi, you have to correspondent decrease of another faction. By your statement, the logical choice for the decrease would be the boyars, but then that would put them at 0 power, which doesn’t really seem right. If you don’t like that handling of power, you can blame me, I was the one who pushed for that model, arguing that in this time you never gained power except at the expense of another group.

Ah. Well, that makes more sense.

Eh? Never heard that particular term before; are you just talking about the promotion of the Metropolitan and the rejection of Florence?

I meant the Byzantine doctrine of close state-church cooperation. But those were a part of it in this case, ofcourse.

I am whining and demanding more gruel.

I meant the Byzantine doctrine of close state-church cooperation. But those were a part of it in this case, ofcourse.
Oooh, Russian historiography gives it a proper name? Cool.
I am whining and demanding more gruel.
SILENCE, WORM! :whipped: ;)

I'll take Mughals!

Do i also have to chose a color?

I'll take Mughals!

Do i also have to chose a color?




Welcome and sure, go ahead and pick a color, no one else seems to be doing so.

Open season picking colors reagardless of group. Consult those already chosen. First choosers get preference.

Can I get Imperial Blue or Imperial Purple for China?

Neither of which are Chinese Imperial colours :p Keen to see a purple china tho

But it says Imperial in it! :king: So what are Chinese Imperial colors?

Yellow is a Chinese imperial color :p

Yellow is ugly.

Welcome and sure, go ahead and pick a color, no one else seems to be doing so.

Open season picking colors reagardless of group. Consult those already chosen. First choosers get preference.

I'll take purple then!
If not possible, i'll take orange.

I call dibs on orange.

Ryukyu claims bright red or violet.

I assume that to play as Netherlands I will have to fight for freedom?

I assume that to play as Netherlands I will have to fight for freedom?

Why would you want to be difficult like that?

Just a question, is HMS Vanguard still in this? I haven't really seen him around. Same with sp.

Bird what is the status of Majapahit in your NES? Is it still existent? Or is it still dead? Or is it not visible?

I assume that to play as Netherlands I will have to fight for freedom?It is a bit early for that unless Austria lets the Dutch factions get out of control and I would prefer not have a player begin the game with his nation under revolt by another player.

Just a question, is HMS Vanguard still in this? I haven't really seen him around. Same with sp.I believe so. He either posted or pmed me within the last week.

Bird what is the status of Majapahit in your NES? Is it still existent? Or is it still dead? Or is it not visible?ATM I see it as an NPC nation unless someone decides to play it.

I will be posting a whole new set of stats shortly. They have been reworked. Here is the comparison spreadsheet.

The power for Lords of the Isles (Scotland) should probably only be a 1, and certainly not more than parliament's.

I'm not sure whether it was intentional or not, but as I was peering through the stats, and while you have "mosques" listed in the place of "church" when dealing with wealth for the Ottomans, the other Islamic states still have "churches" listed.

The power for Lords of the Isles (Scotland) should probably only be a 1, and certainly not more than parliament's.Thank you. Fixed in my worksheet.

I'm not sure whether it was intentional or not, but as I was peering through the stats, and while you have "mosques" listed in the place of "church" when dealing with wealth for the Ottomans, the other Islamic states still have "churches" listed. I'm not surprised. My eyes glaze over when I spend too much time looking at that spreadsheet. Thanks.

I still need factions for Portugal and Ayutthaya.

A quick scan (not at all detailed) leaves me with a small question: why does England still have the Anglo-Irish lords in their faction list if Ireland has effectively become their own nation? :p

Yes I am still here, although the debatesI read when I receieve my email updates!!

Japan is still mine, I assume??...

Church works as a general term, I think. Otherwise, you could use Temple for non-Christian, non-Muslim countries.

Incidentally, why would China be Buddhist? :p It does make sense if you are rating religions by wealth, as the Buddhist monasteries were the closest the Far East had to Church property, but China, like Japan, is technically a hodgepodge of different religions of which Buddhism is merely the most independent but not the most widespread (at least in China) or state accepted (China had its traditional cults and ancestor worship, Japan had Shinto which is the Japanese version of the same formalised in order to counter Buddhism).

EDIT: Speaking of Japan: a) I am not sure if the Samurai should be a separate faction on their own, as they are mostly dependent on the daimyo; b) peasantry was actually unusually powerful in Japan at the time (see: the ikki), to the point of standing down several feudal clans and expelling them all from the Yamashira Province, where they established a communal government. It was a fine mess, in other words, and notable inasmuch as this is one of the few cases where the mandatory peasant faction is at least temporarily relevant.

A quick scan (not at all detailed) leaves me with a small question: why does England still have the Anglo-Irish lords in their faction list if Ireland has effectively become their own nation? :p

Because of the Pale presumably. A better question would be why would Ireland be listed as separate when Sweden, which had more autonomy than Ireland did at this time, isn’t.


Incidentally, why would China be Buddhist? :p It does make sense if you are rating religions by wealth, as the Buddhist monasteries were the closest the Far East had to Church property, but China, like Japan, is technically a hodgepodge of different religions of which Buddhism is merely the most independent but not the most widespread (at least in China) or state accepted (China had its traditional cults and ancestor worship, Japan had Shinto which is the Japanese version of the same formalised in order to counter Buddhism).

This is not 1868, there is no state accepted Shinto, or really even something that can be called “Shinto.” Shinto and Buddhism are in a syncretistic relationship right now (Shinbutsu shugo) but politically and economically it Buddhism would be the “dominant” partner.

EDIT: Speaking of Japan: a) I am not sure if the Samurai should be a separate faction on their own, as they are mostly dependent on the daimyo; b) peasantry was actually unusually powerful in Japan at the time (see: the ikki), to the point of standing down several feudal clans and expelling them all from the Yamashira Province, where they established a communal government. It was a fine mess, in other words, and notable inasmuch as this is one of the few cases where the mandatory peasant faction is at least temporarily relevant.

Samurai aren’t as dependent upon the daimyo in this time period as they are later. Samurai are allowed to choose different masters if they so choose, and because we are in the Sengoku period, there is an increase in the numbers and significance of ronin (samurai without masters). We are also just beginning to see the rise of Gekokujo, which is where underling samurais are beginning to overthrow their overlord and take the power for themselves. But yes, Japan factions need to be rebalanced, both the peasants and the Buddhist monks should be much more powerful than they are listed. Something along the lines of

Shogunate 3/2
Daimyo 0/3
Samurai 0/1
Buddhist Monks -1/2
Peasants -1/2

Man, I sure got down-graded. :( But hey, at least other people did too. I like the fact that Ryukyu now has more ships than Japan and China.

Yes I am still here, although the debatesI read when I receieve my email updates!!

Japan is still mine, I assume??...Yes you are.

Church works as a general term, I think. Otherwise, you could use Temple for non-Christian, non-Muslim countries.

Incidentally, why would China be Buddhist? :p It does make sense if you are rating religions by wealth, as the Buddhist monasteries were the closest the Far East had to Church property, but China, like Japan, is technically a hodgepodge of different religions of which Buddhism is merely the most independent but not the most widespread (at least in China) or state accepted (China had its traditional cults and ancestor worship, Japan had Shinto which is the Japanese version of the same formalised in order to counter Buddhism).

EDIT: Speaking of Japan: a) I am not sure if the Samurai should be a separate faction on their own, as they are mostly dependent on the daimyo; b) peasantry was actually unusually powerful in Japan at the time (see: the ikki), to the point of standing down several feudal clans and expelling them all from the Yamashira Province, where they established a communal government. It was a fine mess, in other words, and notable inasmuch as this is one of the few cases where the mandatory peasant faction is at least temporarily relevant.China has had periodic popular religous rebillions in the past and by having at one religious faction, those various unofficial religions cold be represented in teh stats. I am open to something better.

Because of the Pale presumably. A better question would be why would Ireland be listed as separate when Sweden, which had more autonomy than Ireland did at this time, isn’t.

This is not 1868, there is no state accepted Shinto, or really even something that can be called “Shinto.” Shinto and Buddhism are in a syncretistic relationship right now (Shinbutsu shugo) but politically and economically it Buddhism would be the “dominant” partner.

Samurai aren’t as dependent upon the daimyo in this time period as they are later. Samurai are allowed to choose different masters if they so choose, and because we are in the Sengoku period, there is an increase in the numbers and significance of ronin (samurai without masters). We are also just beginning to see the rise of Gekokujo, which is where underling samurais are beginning to overthrow their overlord and take the power for themselves. But yes, Japan factions need to be rebalanced, both the peasants and the Buddhist monks should be much more powerful than they are listed. Something along the lines of

Shogunate 3/2
Daimyo 0/3
Samurai 0/1
Buddhist Monks -1/2
Peasants -1/2Ireland is independent bedause we have a player for it as a nation. Sweden is tied to Klamar because LJ asked early on to play Kalmar and try to keep it together as a nation. Should he fail in that, then sweden could be played by someone. The Dutch are not independent because of the reasons stated in a previous post.

I will adjust the Japanese factions. Thanks.

Man, I sure got down-graded. :( But hey, at least other people did too. I like the fact that Ryukyu now has more ships than Japan and China.Stop whining, there is a bottom, and you are not here yet. :p

Stop whining, there is a bottom, and you are not here yet.

I'm not really whinning. I just got too used to having an awesome amount of income. I guess you could say I got a little spoiled. ;)

Birdjaguar: Can I play England and try to keep it together as a nation?

China has had periodic popular religous rebillions in the past and by having at one religious faction, those various unofficial religions cold be represented in teh stats. I am open to something better.

Many if not most of those rebellions did not have much to do with the mainstream official representatives of their religions, either personally or ideologically. The White Lotus Society was a perfectly independent sect; I'm pretty sure that mainstream Mahayana Buddhists didn't believe in a messianical "Eternal Mother". Likewise with earlier Taoist and later Christian sects (though, I think some of the Taoist religious manifestations did have connections with their patriarch... but that was more of an exception). So I don't think there will be much correlation between anything the Son of Heaven does to the Buddhist monasteries and mass sectarian peasant uprisings, except inasmuch as it might make as good an immediate cause for such as any other.

Just what is the "Religion" stat supposed to represent, anyway? (And as a sidenote, why can't you repost the rules, preliminary as they are, in the main thread? It will make it so much easier to understand and criticise stats, as right now I have to keep searching for it somewhere in the middle of this thread)

China's
primary religious affiliation
would still be Ancestor Worship, I think, if only because it is syncretised with everything else. At any rate, it certainly isn't Buddhism; this isn't the 6th century AD. This doesn't work if it is supposed to have a direct correlation with the Church Wealth stat, though.

Why not just list all the politically significant religions and/or syncretisms/denominations? They aren't usually too numerous in any case, and at the same time it doesn't work so well within the present faction system.

Because of the Pale presumably. A better question would be why would Ireland be listed as separate when Sweden, which had more autonomy than Ireland did at this time, isn’t.

But the Pale was under direct English rule, as opposed to being loosely tied to the English throne as the rest of Ireland. The Anglo-Irish lords wouldn't even be that significant of a faction since their territory lies within "Ireland" as opposed to the Pale.

Ireland is independent bedause we have a player for it as a nation. Sweden is tied to Klamar because LJ asked early on to play Kalmar and try to keep it together as a nation. Should he fail in that, then sweden could be played by someone. The Dutch are not independent because of the reasons stated in a previous post.

While I understand that you want to have more players in the game by allowing Ireland to be played as a nation, why the different standards for Ireland and Sweden? LJ is allowed to try and keep Kalmar together, essentially excluding anyone from playing Sweden while for England, Ireland is allowed to be played by a player? So hypothetically speaking, should I desire to be an essentially independent Sweden, I would not be allowed to although that was the exact thing which happened for Ireland simply because LJ asked to try and keep Kalmar together earlier? :confused:

I would have assumed that went unsaid for England because it was implicit that players wouldn't join as parts of their country, or as factions within their country.

In general, I worry that the stats in general seem a bit too balanced for European countries (aside from the income parts) :crazyeye:

Technically it should be incredibly easy for someone to just rebel with Sweden early on, and indeed nigh-inevitable unless the Kalmar Union shows miracles of political acumen, timing and luck. You might as well draft up stats for this "hypothetical", Birdjaguar. ;)

EDIT: And I mean, seriously, if this were real history in three years the Danish king will have concluded an active military alliance with me against "his" governor in Sweden. That sounds like a confirmation of Swedish independence to me.

Birdjaguar: Can I play England and try to keep it together as a nation?That's what you are playing, but it doesm't include Scotland and Ireland ATM. And since you asked so nicely, I go ahead and give you Wales from the start. ;)

Many if not most of those rebellions did not have much to do with the mainstream official representatives of their religions, either personally or ideologically. The White Lotus Society was a perfectly independent sect; I'm pretty sure that mainstream Mahayana Buddhists didn't believe in a messianical "Eternal Mother". Likewise with earlier Taoist and later Christian sects (though, I think some of the Taoist religious manifestations did have connections with their patriarch... but that was more of an exception). So I don't think there will be much correlation between anything the Son of Heaven does to the Buddhist monasteries and mass sectarian peasant uprisings, except inasmuch as it might make as good an immediate cause for such as any other.

Just what is the "Religion" stat supposed to represent, anyway? (And as a sidenote, why can't you repost the rules, preliminary as they are, in the main thread? It will make it so much easier to understand and criticise stats, as right now I have to keep searching for it somewhere in the middle of this thread)

China's

would still be Ancestor Worship, I think, if only because it is syncretised with everything else. At any rate, it certainly isn't Buddhism; this isn't the 6th century AD. This doesn't work if it is supposed to have a direct correlation with the Church Wealth stat, though.

Why not just list all the politically significant religions and/or syncretisms/denominations? They aren't usually too numerous in any case, and at the same time it doesn't work so well within the present faction system.The religion stat is an identifier of the main religion of a nation. It is probably more important in Europe and the ME than in Asia. Should the reformation take place, I would see that religious factions could develop that could change the primary religious afiliation of a nation. I don't have a problem just removing the Buddhists from China and keeping a blank spot for any religious factions that might come into play.

Technically it should be incredibly easy for someone to just rebel with Sweden early on, and indeed nigh-inevitable unless the Kalmar Union shows miracles of political acumen, timing and luck. You might as well draft up stats for this "hypothetical", Birdjaguar. ;)

EDIT: And I mean, seriously, if this were real history in three years the Danish king will have concluded an active military alliance with me against "his" governor in Sweden. That sounds like a confirmation of Swedish independence to me.Yes I am prepared for such an "eventuality".

I will post the rules as you suggest. I hope to get Bankers stats and a map up this weekend too depending upon how quickly our nursing home search goes.

BJ I am a bit confused. Banks can raise mercenary armies from various nations; are there any restrictions on what nationalities they can hire? And does this necessarily imply that banks can double as mercenary contractors?

I just realized. Should Denmark have a project/policy integrated representing the Sound Due? They represent it in EU3 at least. I know this isn't EU3, but still...

EDIT: Oh, you are discussing Denmark? I'll read up.

Technically it should be incredibly easy for someone to just rebel with Sweden early on, and indeed nigh-inevitable unless the Kalmar Union shows miracles of political acumen, timing and luck. You might as well draft up stats for this "hypothetical", Birdjaguar. ;)

EDIT: And I mean, seriously, if this were real history in three years the Danish king will have concluded an active military alliance with me against "his" governor in Sweden. That sounds like a confirmation of Swedish independence to me.

Well, I don't really have much to say except that a) I'll try to keep it together and b) I'm technicallynot signing a military alliance with you against "my" governor in Sweden. From my viewpoint, the Swedish unstable region of the Kalmar Union has been in civil war for about a hundred years now, back and forth, and I am signin an alliance was das against the rebels, not the Swedes. :p

But on the whole 'Ireland may play independent and why may Sweden not'-argument, I'm not so sure. The rebelling Swedes are significant enough to be played as a player. I wouldn't appreciate it, since it's armed warfare instead of the desperate plans I have as of now, but if there is such an amount of fuzz about it, give Ireland to England and release the rebels. The situation is the same irregardless.

What player wants to play Sweden btw?

BJ I am a bit confused. Banks can raise mercenary armies from various nations; are there any restrictions on what nationalities they can hire? And does this necessarily imply that banks can double as mercenary contractors?In my original concept, I planned for bankers and mercenary leaders as separate roles, but I do not know if either is sufficiently large. So I think it is worth trying to allow bankers to provide both. Bankers, if they wanted, would have to invest in and maintain mercenaries that nations would rent for a turn at a time. I see the armies coming from the same "regions" where the banks have offices. The banks would be middlemen in the deal. I will also provide mercenary troops of a less defined nature and probably without a track record. Bankers troops could have a war record that could improve their value (or not).

This approach is not very historical, but does provide game play value in that instead of nondescript rented armies, banker players could provide armies with a pedigree.

While I understand that you want to have more players in the game by allowing Ireland to be played as a nation, why the different standards for Ireland and Sweden? LJ is allowed to try and keep Kalmar together, essentially excluding anyone from playing Sweden while for England, Ireland is allowed to be played by a player? So hypothetically speaking, should I desire to be an essentially independent Sweden, I would not be allowed to although that was the exact thing which happened for Ireland simply because LJ asked to try and keep Kalmar together earlier? :confused:

I would have assumed that went unsaid for England because it was implicit that players wouldn't join as parts of their country, or as factions within their country.

In general, I worry that the stats in general seem a bit too balanced for European countries (aside from the income parts) :crazyeye:If you are looking for consistency in the matter of Ireland vs Kalmar, there is none. I think that ther is certainly potential for Sweden to break free and be claimed, just as I think that there is a likilhood that the Dutch will try for independence at some point. If someone as a strong interest in Sweden, then they will have to wait a bit and see how things unfold. In game terms, what I am trying to avoid is Austria and Kalmar having to contend with player spawned revolutions on turn 1 or 2 before the game really gets underway. Ireland is an exception and its disfunctionality in 1490 will have less impact on England as the game begins.

How would you suggest changing the stats for Europe? Please be more specific.

Bird, how much effect will the wokou have on maritime trade in East Asia? And will you need to chart out an area, even if it's fairly close by to establish a trade post there?

I will take care of the Wokou fear not.

I will take care of the Wokou fear not.

Well, I'm still interested in seeing how Bird will represent their activities in our stats.

Bird, how much effect will the wokou have on maritime trade in East Asia? And will you need to chart out an area, even if it's fairly close by to establish a trade post there?

I will take care of the Wokou fear not.

Well, I'm still interested in seeing how Bird will represent their activities in our stats.

They will have a precense unless Norstream has his way. ;)

I had pirates in BirdNES 1 and they will be included here too. They will diminish trade and possibly cause additional trouble.

China, Japan and Ryukyu have regional trade automatically and it works woithout any player effort. There will be some established trade routes for some nations and those will show in the final stats. New routes beyond those will need to be established.

They will have a precense unless Norstream has his way. ;)

I had pirates in BirdNES 1 and they will be included here too. They will diminish trade and possibly cause additional trouble.

China, Japan and Ryukyu have regional trade automatically and it works woithout any player effort. There will be some established trade routes for some nations and those will show in the final stats. New routes beyond those will need to be established.

But I'm talking about actual trade posts, not just routes. There's a certain island nearby that I have plans for, and I don't want to waste an Initiative Point on an island that's already well known.

Pm me the details.

Here is Europe colored as requested.

Hungary unchanged, no request
Kalmar and Spain are too close, One of you choose again
Papacy changed to brown, you wanted a bright yellow but we have too many yellows unless I go very light.
Portugal made no request and got that.

Comments welcome.

EDIT: version 2 added. It has some requested changes and cities. Red cities are important for trade or banking. Green for religion.

Kalmar should be changed. A) The color yellow is more commonly associated with Spain and B) two yellows in the north makes the map very unbalanced aesthetically.

Kalmar should be changed. A) The color yellow is more commonly associated with Spain and B) two yellows in the north makes the map very unbalanced aesthetically.Exactly. xcl

EDIT: a nice bright blue might be appropriate.

Ireland doesn't have a good capital available, does it? Dublin is still part of England. Perhaps Belfast would work.

perhaps this would work?
RGB 204/51/0

perhaps this would work?
RGB 204/51/0
Awfully close to England and I do not mean right next door. ;)

New map version at top of page. I changed Kalmar to blue and added cities. I also changed Rome as requested.

Scotland has not been changed yet.

If colors must be similar it is best they are close together, so at least they are distinct. If that won't do I'll come up with something else. I told myself I didn't much care what color Scotland got...but I find the present selection surprisingly...uninspiring ;)

In any case, the capital seems to be shown as Glasgow? It was, in fact, in Edinburgh.

edit oh you caught it before I did

also another addition which may I suppose be called an edit

The Isle of Man seems to have passed out of the control of Scotland some time ago, nominally to England, though probably retaining something that was effectively very near to independence.

If colors must be similar it is best they are close together, so at least they are distinct. If that won't do I'll come up with something else. I told myself I didn't much care what color Scotland got...but I find the present selection surprisingly...uninspiring ;)

In any case, the capital seems to be shown as Glasgow? It was, in fact, in Edinburgh.New map has Edinburgh and upon further review, I think 204, 51 0 will work. I changed it on my master.

From my viewpoint, the Swedish unstable region of the Kalmar Union has been in civil war for about a hundred years now, back and forth, and I am signin an alliance was das against the rebels, not the Swedes.

That goes without saying, but it's like CSA in a NES starting in 1862. They're rebels and not independent at all, but as far as game mechanics are concerned they might as well be.

I had pirates in BirdNES 1 and they will be included here too. They will diminish trade and possibly cause additional trouble.

They should devastate the coastal regions and create disgruntled impoverished peasants that would eagerly join the aforementioned sects and (if the Chinese government's measures fail to contain this threat early on) try to paint the sky yellow or reincarnate the Buddha or whatever is it they're doing nowadays.

Red cities are important for trade or banking. Green for religion.

Genoa and Venice should probably be red, and Rome should be green if it isn't already. Augsburg should probably also be red, if only because of those guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger). Less sure about those, but maybe Kaffa and Barcelona ought to acknowledged as well, though they may be past their prime. I'm not sure if Kiev should be a religious center by this point; all their metropolitan is belong to us, and the Uniate movement isn't that significant, at least not yet. Sure, they have some great monasteries, but we have those too, and overall Kiev is in decline whereas Moscow is on the rise - this extends to the monastic tradition as well (our current religious strife is technically a result of two very different branches of monastic tradition reaching their golden age and gaining prominence at the court at the same time).

The Teutonic Knights are currently emasculated... how is anyone meant to take them seriously?

Livonia is not the worst place to conquer, I am told. ;)

If you are talking about the stats, well, they are supposed to be emasculated. Keep in mind that the knights weren't that numerous even before Grunwald (~800 brothers and 6400 half-brother knechts, according to one research that has been criticised as optimistic); they had to rely on mercenaries, too, which is ironic.

That said, maybe Riga deserves to be an economic center as well? What with the whole gateway to Livonia and Russia thing.

cause they're knights. They'll run through ya with a broadsword

That they might; they always did win lose by with quality rather than quantity. :p

I was talking about that pale shade of yellow, you can't take them seriously with it :p

That reflects their weakness and to-be-conquered-ness quite nicely, I think. :p

Expanded Bankers rules have been added to post 4 inthe game thread.

Awesome.

Can we get an official full map in the game thread?

Awesome.

Can we get an official full map in the game thread?Soon.

Additional banking rules added to explain banking stats. Starting banking stats will go up later today. Rules copy is for demonstration purposes only.

Ireland doesn't have a good capital available, does it? Dublin is still part of England. Perhaps Belfast would work.

I would say that the family seat of Kildare would make much more sense than Belfast considering how "Ireland" under the Kildares was simply a mismatch of loose alliances and allegiances of Gaelic tribes and Anglo-Irish territories. It's basically a web of intrigue, why would the Kildares have their base of power in another faction's territory? :mischief:

I would say that the family seat of Kildare would make much more sense than Belfast considering how "Ireland" under the Kildares was simply a mismatch of loose alliances and allegiances of Gaelic tribes and Anglo-Irish territories. It's basically a web of intrigue, why would the Kildares have their base of power in another faction's territory? :mischief:I like Kildare unless there is a still better contender.

I agree that Kildare is a good idea.

Bank stats are posted in game thread. Let me know if you have any questions.

How much money can a (1) size branch handle in a turn?

Livonia is not the worst place to conquer, I am told. ;)
So they say.
Keep in mind that the knights weren't that numerous even before Grunwald (~800 brothers and 6400 half-brother knechts, according to one research that has been criticised as optimistic);
Good thing the knights themselves aren't the only people who fight, and are in fact a rather large minority. Having five men-at-arms for every knight: because banners are cool like that. As for the 'optimistic' bit on the research, I think that's actually rather reasonable if you incorporate secondary Orders like the Swordbrothers or the Lizard League. (Excellent name, btw.)
they had to rely on mercenaries, too, which is ironic.
By the time of the Thirteen Years' War anyway.
That reflects their weakness and to-be-conquered-ness quite nicely, I think. :p
Yeah, since I'm going to have to bow out. Sorry, Birdjag, but I don't think I'll have the time to run the Ordensstaat like I thought I would. :(

Yeah, since I'm going to have to bow out. Sorry, Birdjag, but I don't think I'll have the time to run the Ordensstaat like I thought I would. :(

What? No dachs! You have to stand strong! :(

EDIT: @Bird, could you please change my Bank name to the House of Lee? :)

How much money can a (1) size branch handle in a turn?

@Bird, could you please change my Bank name to the House of Lee? :)5000 per size level at the start.

So they say.

Good thing the knights themselves aren't the only people who fight, and are in fact a rather large minority. Having five men-at-arms for every knight: because banners are cool like that. As for the 'optimistic' bit on the research, I think that's actually rather reasonable if you incorporate secondary Orders like the Swordbrothers or the Lizard League. (Excellent name, btw.)

By the time of the Thirteen Years' War anyway.

Yeah, since I'm going to have to bow out. Sorry, Birdjag, but I don't think I'll have the time to run the Ordensstaat like I thought I would. :(That's terrible news, :( but thanks for letting me know.

Teutonic knights is now open

The map is fine, and I don't really care about the colour of Kalmar (although that blue thing you have going on looks awfully Swedish to me :p), however please note that the Faeroe and Orkney should belong to Kalmar as I recall.

Sicily should be Spanish

The map is fine, and I don't really care about the colour of Kalmar (although that blue thing you have going on looks awfully Swedish to me :p), however please note that the Faeroe and Orkney should belong to Kalmar as I recall.

Orkney has been Scottish since 1472 in compensation for the nonpayment of the dowry of Margaret of Denmark to James III.

The map is fine, and I don't really care about the colour of Kalmar (although that blue thing you have going on looks awfully Swedish to me :p), however please note that the Faeroe and Orkney should belong to Kalmar as I recall.

Sicily should be Spanish

Orkney has been Scottish since 1472 in compensation for the nonpayment of the dowry of Margaret of Denmark to James III.My maps show Shetland and Orkney to Scotland in 1468; Faroe to Norway (kalmar)

Sicily changed. I will post a world map tonight.

Bird can the banking stats be hidden? I don't really want people to know to whom I'm lending, how much I'm lending to whom, how much I can lend, what I can lend, or what the terms and conditions of lending are. Or anything really, it defeats the whole purpose of being a bank and makes us horribly vulnerable to reprisals.

Bird can the banking stats be hidden? I don't really want people to know to whom I'm lending, how much I'm lending to whom, how much I can lend, what I can lend, or what the terms and conditions of lending are. Or anything really, it defeats the whole purpose of being a bank and makes us horribly vulnerable to reprisals.Some of what you want, you get. Who you are lending to is not posted in the stats, so that can be kept secret unless it is leaked by someone or a spy. Terms and conditions are your business (but must be included in your orders). Your overall financial situation, like that of the nations, though, is public. The total amount of your loan portfolio is public, but no details.

Is there any chance you could also add Copenhagen to the House of Lee's states as an overseas branch? :) (just subtract one branch level from London)

Is there any chance you could also add Copenhagen to the House of Lee's states as an overseas branch? :) (just subtract one branch level from London)Now, that I've just posted the new map.....sure, but you won't see it until the next version. :)

You gave China an ugly lime green color in the new map :(:(:(:(

You gave China an ugly lime green color in the new map :(:(:(:(

Ok it is not too late. How about your suggestion?

Can I get Imperial Blue or Imperial Purple for China?

Either one of these two colors. As long as it has the word Imperial or Royal in it. ;)

Either one of these two colors. As long as it has the word Imperial or Royal in it. ;)
You do realize that in China Imperial meant "yellow"?

Yes alex told me but yellow is an ugly color hard on the eyes.

Ok then, purple it is.

I'll take Bavaria, please! If you could, please make my color be blue-and-white, in the manner of the Bavarian flag.

---

Why do you use "Inka" and not "Inca"?

It's more proper than Inca.

Though Tawantinsuyu would be miles better, I'm not going to make that particular case until we start going with Francais, Espana, Zhongguo, etc.

It's more proper than Inca.

Er, how so? It's pronounced the same, unless I'm terribly mistaken, and Tawantinsuyu didn't use the Latin alphabet and did not have an accepted Romanisation scheme, so both are as proper. Indeed, if anything, the earlier used version is the more proper one in this case (although to be fair, I can't find which was the earliest used at a moment's notice; but some assumptions in this regard could probably be made with Latin, or Spanish for that matter).

It seems more like an academic version of orcs/orks.

Er, how so? It's pronounced the same, unless I'm terribly mistaken, and Tawantinsuyu didn't use the Latin alphabet and did not have an accepted Romanisation scheme, so both are as proper. Indeed, if anything, the earlier used version is the more proper one in this case (although to be fair, I can't find which was the earliest used at a moment's notice; but some assumptions in this regard could probably be made with Latin, or Spanish for that matter).

It seems more like an academic version of orcs/orks.

Actually, the Romanization scheme is starting to use K in the place of C; it is indeed more proper. Well, that's not a hard and fast rule, but it is a rule (e.g. Qosqo instead of Cuzco, but Pachakuti instead of Pachacuti, etc.). Let's see if I can find the source...

Right, it's not universal, but the "romanization scheme... promulgated by Peruvian Academia Mayor de le Lengua Quechua... seems to be gaining popularity." (p. 341, 1491, Charles Mann).

So you can use the other one, but Inka is better, because we like it more. :p

So you can use the other one, but Inka is better, because we like it more. :p

Should've said that in the first place. ;)

Still isn't really any more proper, though. Argumentum ad novitatem. Bah, humbug.

I'll take Bavaria, please! If you could, please make my color be blue-and-white, in the manner of the Bavarian flag.

---

Why do you use "Inka" and not "Inca"?WElcome as Bavaria. as for the color...we'll see, but I'm pretty sure it will be a single color.

New Players:

Flying Chicken as Bavaria
Churchill 25 as Savoy


How about Incka and everyone can be happy? :shake:

Inckatawantinsuyu is better. ;)

Savoy stats added to the game thread.

Factions: Loyalty\Power
Charles II 3/1
Blanche of Montferrat 5/4
Savoiardi: French-leaning old nobility 0/2
Piemontesi: Italian-speaking 2/3

Strategos, I did the factions as above, separating the de facto leaders Blanche from Charles. Take off your "fox in the hen house" hat for a moment and tell me what you think please.

Savoy stats added to the game thread.

Factions: Loyalty\Power
Charles II 3/1
Blanche of Montferrat 5/4
Savoiardi: French-leaning old nobility 0/2
Piemontesi: Italian-speaking 2/3

Strategos, I did the factions as above, separating the de facto leaders Blanche from Charles. Take off your "fox in the hen house" hat for a moment and tell me what you think please.

Charles is a one year old boy, Blanche is his mother and the regent. One year old boys tend not to wield a lot of power.

Charles is a one year old boy, Blanche is his mother and the regent. One year old boys tend not to wield a lot of power.

:lol: I will make some adjustments thanks:

Blanche of Montferrat 4/4
Charles II 3/1
Savoiardi: French-leaning old nobility 0/2
Piemontesi: Italian-speaking 2/3

I did give Charles his own set of supporters in case there are intrigues against his mother.

Why include a climate map when assumedly a lot of the world is different?

Perhaps the climate map with change? :mischief:

The new lands have been mapped in koppen colors so their climates can be more easily shown. As the world is revealed so will a Koppen map.

The map you have posted, would it not make sense to blackout the unknown?

I would like a reservation as the Delhi Sultanate, should that be available, at least according to official thread.

Is Asia the only continent with NPCs left?

Oh and I have high hopes for this NES. :D

I believe there are a few smaller European nations open.

I would like a reservation as the Delhi Sultanate, should that be available, at least according to official thread.

Is Asia the only continent with NPCs left?

Oh and I have high hopes for this NES. :D

Oh well...I just posted the all that stats for the NPCs, one of which is the Delhi Sultanate, Most NPC stats are abreviated to keep my sanity. I will redo it in player format in the next day or so. Welcome.

I am working in the game thread, please do not post there.

Teutonic Order in Europe is also available.

Hmmmm....

Just actually read through the whole of this thread. I would be up for the Tuetonic Knights, supposing that no one else has any great desire to play them.

Hmmmm....

Just actually read through the whole of this thread. I would be up for the Tuetonic Knights, supposing that no one else has any great desire to play them.
They're yours!! Thanks.

Inka and Aztec maps are done and will be sent tomorrow night.
NPCs are posted

Yet to do:
Delhi Stats
Write "how to submit orders"
Re-read rules
???
What have I forgotten?