Papal States is definitely an extraordinary nation in RFCE, I though that it needs its own thread.

1. Papal States isn't playable, right?
2. In what ways are Papal States unique in gameplay, if in any way?
3. Will conquering Rome be made tougher than it normally would be? I mean, if nation A conquers Rome, could it suffer something like a -4 diplomatic penalty towards all Christian nations, representing the great anger of Christian nations for expelling the Pope? That would also make it harder for the human player to survive after conquering Rome, neighbouring great powers would try to kill it very soon.

What city is Catholicism's holy city in RFCE anyway? Is it Jerusalem or Rome?
If Rome, my idea is that if Nation A declares war against Nation B who both controls the aggressor's religion's holy city and is of the same religion as him, Nation A would receive diplomatic penalty with all civs of the same religion as him.

I don't know if that's doable, but in my eyes it would help Papal States become more unique nation and help reflecting how huge of a role it had in medieval European politics. If the holy city is Jerusalem, this feature could also be bound to Apostolic Palace. If not that, Papal States could have this as its UP. Still, I don't know if pulling this off is even possible but I'd like to see it that way.

Is Apostolic Palace going to be more interactive in RFCE than it is in normal BtS, anyway? Can you control arranging a "cardinal meeting" or is it going to remain turn-bound?

Catholicism holy city of course is Rome. I think there are no plans currently... hence ideas are encouraged.

Papal stuff would be tied to Catholicism and not Christianity in general.

The Papal State would be another playable civ, with rules somewhat similar to an OCC. However, there would be an entirely different way of diplomatic interaction between the Papal State and the rest of the Catholic nations.

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

Good point. Have you an idea, though?

Papal stuff would be tied to Catholicism and not Christianity in general.

The Papal State would be another playable civ, with rules somewhat similar to an OCC. However, there would be an entirely different way of diplomatic interaction between the Papal State and the rest of the Catholic nations.

There are many ideas about it and more are encouraged, however, keep in mind that most of the ideas would not be implemented. The main reason is that the AI should be coded to cope with a completely new situation.

I don't really understand what you're talking about. I thought it was decided long ago the Papal State was an unplayable civ. It certainly says so on the wiki. And what is an OCC anyway??:confused:

Maybe it can be used someway like in Charlemagne? Perhaps players relations drop down sometimes, need to give units etc. to increase, or otherwise excommunicated?

Right now there is no Papal State. (Rome is independent)

We would add a Papal State and if we make it unplayable, then everyone would start asking to make it playable. So we just might make it playable.

My idea is to make it more of a Diplomatic game. The Pope (i.e. the Papal State leader) would be allowed to name HRE leaders (for diplo bonuses) and anathema to punish civs that dislike the Pope. The idea would be that if a non-Pope is nice to the Pope, the non-Pope would get some bonus. Because of the crusades in the end, the Pope would want good relations with all the Catholic civs.

The Pope would be allowed to call on a Crusade. All Catholic leaders that like the pope would send some units. The Pope's main goal would be to capture Jerusalem. That would also hit the Arabs, since they would have to defend against the Crusade.

UHVs would be: 1. Keep Catholicism at a high percentage in year X (after the protestants appear), 2. capture and hold Jerusalem for 50 turns (either the pope or any catholic nation would do), 3. Convert one traditionally Orthodox nation to Catholicism (Bulgaria or one of the Russians), use diplomacy to get OB, then missionaries, then diplomacy to force a religion switch.

All of this is kind of unclear and up in the air for now. It would not be coded any time soon anyway.

Right now there is no Papal State. (Rome is independent)

We would add a Papal State and if we make it unplayable, then everyone would start asking to make it playable. So we just might make it playable.

My idea is to make it more of a Diplomatic game. The Pope (i.e. the Papal State leader) would be allowed to name HRE leaders (for diplo bonuses) and anathema to punish civs that dislike the Pope. The idea would be that if a non-Pope is nice to the Pope, the non-Pope would get some bonus. Because of the crusades in the end, the Pope would want good relations with all the Catholic civs.

The Pope would be allowed to call on a Crusade. All Catholic leaders that like the pope would send some units. The Pope's main goal would be to capture Jerusalem. That would also hit the Arabs, since they would have to defend against the Crusade.

UHVs would be: 1. Keep Catholicism at a high percentage in year X (after the protestants appear), 2. capture and hold Jerusalem for 50 turns (either the pope or any catholic nation would do), 3. Convert one traditionally Orthodox nation to Catholicism (Bulgaria or one of the Russians), use diplomacy to get OB, then missionaries, then diplomacy to force a religion switch.

All of this is kind of unclear and up in the air for now. It would not be coded any time soon anyway.

That's not a bad idea. Though I'd prefer the non-playable variety as in the Charlemagne mod, as has been suggested.

BTW. I still don't understand what you mean by an OCC.:confused:

OCC = One City Challenge. Try it on regular civ at some point, it is fun.

1. Cannot build settlers.
2. All conquered or flipped cities autodestroy. (in our case we would make exception for Jerusalem)
3. The main city can build more national wonders (we may remove this for RFCE).

OCC = One City Challenge. Try it on regular civ at some point, it is fun.

1. Cannot build settlers.
2. All conquered or flipped cities autodestroy. (in our case we would make exception for Jerusalem)
3. The main city can build more national wonders (we may remove this for RFCE).

Oh. I see. I haven't played reg. civ for nearly a year. And I've never tried that.

I don't really understand what you're talking about. I thought it was decided long ago the Papal State was an unplayable civ. It certainly says so on the wiki. And what is an OCC anyway??:confused:

OCC stands for one city challenge (only one city can be built/ have to raze every other)

EDIT: @3Miro: Didn't notice your answer, I am currently working with turtle-speed internet.

I disagree about the Pope naming HR Emperors. This should be done through election among HRE members. I also find the Charlemagne implementation an acceptable one.
Or we could look at other games like Europa Universalis where one civ can become "Papal Controller" and have the ability to excommunicate leaders (not sure what this would mean since Civ4 doesn't implement casus belli) and other bonuses and/or be able to propose AP resolutions.

Actually, it was in Crusader Kings where one could become the Papal Controller..

I want to give the Papal player a diplomatic tool to either punish or reward nations. We could put anathema/excommunication as the "punishing" thing. What do we do for reward. HRE looked natural to me, but we could think of something else. What about elect a Pope from the specific nation and give that nation some AP abilities, the point would be that the Papal player would choose the AP controller and thus everyone would have an interest to be nice to the Papal player.

That's a good idea, but that would make it so that ANYONE, even warmongering war country could become the papal controller and use that to its advantage. Anyway, my point is that it would base on Temples, Monasteries and cities with Catholicism who makes the next Pope, much like in Apostolic Palace.

Actually, it was in Crusader Kings where one could become the Papal Controller..

CK is based on Europa Universalis, which is the main title from Paradox, which has Papal Controller.



@3Miro

Actually I don't know if a playable Papal States is a good idea. It is very hard to implement especially because it is not a proper civ (IIRC none declared war on the Papal States directly, for example). The Popes crowned the HRE -until a certain point in History- but didn't elect him.
Your idea about the Papal Controller sounds cool, although it requires the Papal States to be playable and maybe some code to prevent it from going into war -at least with catholic non excommunicated civs.
One great power you could give to the Papal Controller is the following:
catholic civs receive huge diplo penalties with all other catholics when they declare war to another catholic civ. This penalty is lifted when they declare war to civs that are excommunicated, which can be done by the Papal Controller but only if the relationship between the excommunicated civ and the Papal States are below a certain threshold.
Instead I would leave to the Papal States player the ability to propose AP resolutions, and maybe its vote should count double.

As I said before, I really don't see much point in making the Papal States playable. What's the human player going to do? Build nice artistic wonders and sit around drafting AP resolutions? I'd much rather see an AI that controls the Papacy and AP that interracts with human players either positively or negatively. Like initiating crusades, excommunicating civs (big happiness and diplomatic penalties) or sending extra troops to friendly (Catholic) players. Much like the model used in the Charlemagne mod combined with the Apostolic Palace from RFC and with some of our own features added. At least that model is already coded for that mod and should be easy to incorporate into ours. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

The AI for the Papal State would be the hardest thing to do anyway. Giving the control to the human would be easier. Charlemagne's mod has many features, but the AI is just "stupid". For example, in Charlemagne they have an Inquisitor unit, when do you think the AI would build Inquisitors? Answer: randomly, with no underlying logic. When should the AI in RFCE build Inquisitors? Answer: (assuming I coded it properly), if the AI is running proper civic, and has foreign religion in the empire and there is no immediate danger to the city or empire (i.e. if the AI is at war, it would build units and pay less attention to internal religious affairs), then the AI wold build an Inquisitor.

Human Papal Controllers would build Missionaries and Inquisitors, ensuring the spread of Catholicism. Then they would have to use diplomatic tricks (excommunication, HRE or whatever) to gain highly favorable ratings with all Catholic nations. Then summon Crusades and conquer Jerusalem.

I want to make the Papal game unlike all other games in civ.

3Miro's mention about the missionaries brought one question in my mind: Could the AP resolution be coded so that the Papal States receive more counts as there are Catholic cities? This perhaps would encourage the Papal States spreading the Catholic faith in the world and be worth it from their point of view. If the Papal States aren't going to control more cities than just Rome, they would have to get their diplomatic points from somewhere else. Maybe this would be their UP? "+1 AP resolution vote for every Catholic city in the world." It would possily also encourage them not to target just certain nations in the world but spread the fun around so one nation doesn't become diplomatically too strong by building lots of religious buildings, thus topping the Papal States' AP votes.

However, they probably would have to be superbly dependant on Missionary activity. Maybe their UU could be a missionary that ignores border limits as long as the PS and the other country aren't at war with each other? That way the Papal States would have to put forth some effort into Christianizing the world and would benefit from it in the end.

I'm not a modder but I can see what I can do about the Papal States' XML once I get back home. That won't be until the first week of January though, and that doesn't fix the problem that the RFCE community needs to collectively decide what it wants to do with the Papal States.

I like my suggestion about their UP and UU, but I want others' opinions too. Who are for/against the Papal Missionary proposion and Power of the Roman Curia (passable name?)?

Also, who are in favor of the PS being playable, who are against? Some arguments have already been represented (game mechanics, unique playability) but more thought needs to be put into this. Should there be a missionary-based UU that helps their Catholization of all peoples and would perhaps increase their diplomatical power? Should it be a Crusader-based powerhouse much like Papal Pikeman in Charlemagne mod or a Spy that can revoke the spread of Catholicism or forbid other religions from spreading to the city for a limited time? What about their UB? Should the Papacy rather be represented by Inquisition or spiritual buildings? Should the Papal States remain a minor nation after all?

Get your creative juices going. I'm interested to see how this develops and how big a part Papal States ends up playing in RFCE.

If the Pope does get implemented, please please please have him hand out long cumbersome titles like "defender of the faith" and "most christian king" to leaders he likes. That would be so much fun.

I don't think adding those titles to the game will be much of a necessity, but we can see what we can do about your suggestion. ;)

Could we get other people's opinions regarding Papal States' UU, for example? Should it rather be a neutral unit such as Spy or Missionary or an offensive unit? Papal States are going to have a lot of emphasis on Missionary activity after all, maybe their UP or UU should reflect this? Christianizing the world has been a objective of the Catholic Church for a long time and in my view there should be a way for them to get a contact to independent cities too. It would be easy to implement in a UU and favour the 'Christianize the world' objective just fine.

What about some kind of a knight called a Crusader? Papal States won't have many cities, and they most likely won't have any cities that have excellent production, so to represent their military might they should have a strong UU. Another suggestion that popped to my mind is the Papal Swiss Guard, the bodyguards of Pope. To represent them being only a bodyguard for the Pope, they could be quite strong but could be only built in Rome and could not be moved at all. That could be made possible by giving the city with a Palace the ability to build a Swiss Guard(quite strong, not able to move), and the UU of Papal States would be an improved Swiss Guard.

Why not make the RFC-vanilla congress event a power only the Papal States have?

Skip the voting part and give the Pope power to assign cities from one civ to another. If the first civ refuses to give up the land the rest of Christendom automatically declares war on him.

Simple, elegant, re-uses existing code.

I don't think congresses could be in-game, since:
a) The first known congress was the Congress of Vienna (1815), which is kinda out of the mod timespan.
b) I can't remember, from any part of history, Pope assigning cities.

I don't think congresses could be in-game, since:
a) The first known congress was the Congress of Vienna (1815), which is kinda out of the mod timespan.
b) I can't remember, from any part of history, Pope assigning cities.

I agree. Congresses wouldn't really fit in to the time period of our mod. Though I think to Pope sometimes was asked to mediate on territorial disputes between states. A good example was the settlement which decided Spanish and Portugese colonial spheres of influence in the New World. So awarding cities in dispute could be a Papal function in this mod.
I think the original idea was that the Papacy might confer favours on Catholic civs, maybe brokering alliances, declaring trade sanctions and initiating crusades by Catholic civs against non-Catholic ones. I'm not sure how easy those things are to code, but that's the general idea AFAIK.

I don't think congresses could be in-game, since:
a) The first known congress was the Congress of Vienna (1815), which is kinda out of the mod timespan.
b) I can't remember, from any part of history, Pope assigning cities.

Oh come now. The many ecumenical councils? The church was the international organization of the middle ages. A congress by any other name...

And no the pope didn't assign cities that I'm aware of. I only said that because the city-assigning code is already implemented.

In any case, I hope the Pope can do more than what the Apostolic Palace currently does, which is kind of nerfed in my opinion. He should at least start a few wars.

Oh come now. The many ecumenical councils? The church was the international organization of the middle ages. A congress by any other name...

And no the pope didn't assign cities that I'm aware of. I only said that because the city-assigning code is already implemented.

In any case, I hope the Pope can do more than what the Apostolic Palace currently does, which is kind of nerfed in my opinion. He should at least start a few wars.

I think AP should be used more like an oppressive weapon - there's not many religions in Europe before the founding of Protestantism so the Catholic civs are most likely bound to only Catholicism before the arrival of the Swedish if they want the religious bonuses. But by doing so, the Pope should have power over them.

Any suggestions how the AP's role could be improved? Can the AP resolutions be coded to be activated when one only wishes so? To prevent abuse, make it so you can't put forth a new resolution for 15 turns after the last resolution?

I think AP should be used more like an oppressive weapon - there's not many religions in Europe before the founding of Protestantism so the Catholic civs are most likely bound to only Catholicism before the arrival of the Swedish if they want the religious bonuses. But by doing so, the Pope should have power over them.

You're forgetting Orthodoxy.

Apostolic Palace Resolution #114: Excommunicate the Heretical Bishop of Constantinople?

[Yes, crush the idolaters!]
[No, chill out.]

You're forgetting Orthodoxy.

Apostolic Palace Resolution #114: Excommunicate the Heretical Bishop of Constantinople?

[Yes, crush the idolaters!]
[No, chill out.]

Not a bad idea. :D

Just to clarify. While Popes rarely made judgements of territorial disputes it did happen a few times. The correct term is Papal bull (not congress). Here is a short list of papal bulls that might be of some interest to us:

1054 - excommunication of the Orthodox Patriarchs

1095 - Pope Urban II launches the Ist. Crusade

1139 -Adrian IV endorses the Knights Templar

1145 - " " " " launches the 2nd. Crusade

1155 - " " " " gives English King Henry II lordship over Ireland

1185 - Innocent III launches the 3rd. Crusade

1297 - Boniface VIII gives James II of Aragon rule over Sardinia and Corsica

1299 - Boniface VIII declares English King Edward I's occupation of Scotland illegal.

1312 - Clement V disbands the Knights Templar

1493 - Alexander VI - Divides the New World between Portugal and Spain.

Perhaps when a catholic civ declares war on another catholic civ the pope could decide whether to consider it legal, illegal, or abstain. If the pope considers it illegal then other catholic civs would be given an option to declare war on the civ that declared war earlier, they would be given gold or troops perhaps, and of course + relations with pope. If the pope abstains nothing special happens. I don't have any idea of anything special that could happen if the pope declares the DoW legal, anyone?

I would propose getting the Catholic-Orthodox conflict to that way (when events are added):

Event:The Schism (Papal States only)
Text: Differences in faith with our Orthodox ''brothers'' have reached a boiling point. How should we face the crisis?

Options: Destroy the infidels! (At war with all orthodox civs-subtract 200 gold from treasury-get 10 Knights Units.
Leave it to the clergy. (Suffer -2 relation hit with all Orthodox leaders)
Try to solve the crisis. (Subtract 100 gold from treasury - get +1 relations with all Orthodox leaders)

Also, in case the Pope chooses the first option, all Catholic countries could get the following :

Event:Crusade against the infidels!
Text: Pope has called us to ''clean'' the world from the orthodox heretics. How should we react?

Options: Wipe them out!! (100 gold subtracted-10 knights units- +3 with Papal states- war with all Orthodox civs)
They are humans after all, and done us no actual harm ( +2 relation boost with all Orthodox leaders- Pope will consider a DoW against us legal (to take BurnEmDown's idea))

What would you think about that?

I like that, and there could be the same event on Arabia, giving all catholic nations troops which head towards Jerusalem (they'll have no control over them or something, but we should make sure nothing can disturb them) and they'll only get control over them once they're in range. The event would be completed once a catholic nation conquers Jerusalem, giving all catholic cities a boost to happiness, culture, or both. And other things too to make it worth the time :)

I like that, and there could be the same event on Arabia, giving all catholic nations troops which head towards Jerusalem (they'll have no control over them or something, but we should make sure nothing can disturb them) and they'll only get control over them once they're in range. The event would be completed once a catholic nation conquers Jerusalem, giving all catholic cities a boost to happiness, culture, or both. And other things too to make it worth the time :)

If all these Catholic troops start heading for Jerusalem, how will they get there? What about the Open Borders agreements? Or do they DOW on everybody else on the way? What a free-for-all?:lol:
Also remember that all the Crusades only happened over less than 200 years. So the Crusade option should only be available to Catholic civs between about 1100AD and 1280AD. right?

Yes, ofc. I was thinking maybe they should appear in boats near Jerusalem but I'm pretty sure atleast the first crusade most of the troops got to Jerusalem by land, correct me if I'm wrong. About the open borders that's part of the "we should make sure nothing can disturb them" thing, they'll be allowed to move through unfriendly territory without DoW (like the dutch UU and caravels can do this too I think).

I like that, and there could be the same event on Arabia, giving all catholic nations troops which head towards Jerusalem (they'll have no control over them or something, but we should make sure nothing can disturb them) and they'll only get control over them once they're in range. The event would be completed once a catholic nation conquers Jerusalem, giving all catholic cities a boost to happiness, culture, or both. And other things too to make it worth the time :)

Why give out free troops? Make the reward for capturing Jerusalem extremely attractive and make the various civs figure out how to get it.

Why give out free troops? Make the reward for capturing Jerusalem extremely attractive and make the various civs figure out how to get it.

I agree with this. 10 free knights represents both a lot of military power and a lot of production. While AI civs are unlikely to crusade successfully, the crusades really weren't very successful endeavors. Also, as the AI civs (Bulgaria in particular does this often) regularly go after formerly Byzantine independents in Anatolia, there are likely to be crusader state-like entities throughout Turkey and Syria in the mid-late game.

BurnEmDown is correct - the armies of the first crusade went by land, while relations with the Byzantines were still relatively good. As relations with the Byzantines worsened, moving through the Balkans and Anatolia became much more contentious, and eventually degenerated to the point that Venice sacked Constantinople - so there actually was an element of fighting their way through everyone to get there. Consequently, later crusades relied more on naval transport of armies, but this rarely went well.

Blowing history aside, the Pope player could assign and/or grant independent or revolting Catholic cities to/from a player. I think this would matter a lot early in the game and help both spread Cathlocisim (especially if there were a way for missionaries to convert independents) and make players be real nice to the Pope.

How about letting Christian missionaries move through another civ's borders regardless of having open borders or not. Hope this doesn't sound too Racist towards Muslims but if they're allowed too then the Arab UHV will be a lot easier.

Great idea, except I'd separate out the Christians after 1054. A Roman/Byzantine race before then would be fun!

How about letting Christian missionaries move through another civ's borders regardless of having open borders or not. Hope this doesn't sound too Racist towards Muslims but if they're allowed too then the Arab UHV will be a lot easier.

I don't really agree unless you treat all missionaries as enemy units as soon as they enter your territory. Otherwise they'd just be glorified spies with no real defence against them. Historically, foriegn missionaries would be killed on sight. Why should this mod be any different? The Arab 25% UHV is already pretty hard. Your idea would make it almost impossible.

I don't really agree unless you treat all missionaries as enemy units as soon as they enter your territory. Otherwise they'd just be glorified spies with no real defence against them. Historically, foriegn missionaries would be killed on sight. Why should this mod be any different? The Arab 25% UHV is already pretty hard. Your idea would make it almost impossible.

Foreign missionaries might be martyred on sight, but they did in fact act very much like glorified spies, just think of the Byzantine outreach to Bulgaria, as a prime example of this. Or perhaps Roman Catholics in Jacobean England. Or the Inquisition.

:worship:

Foreign missionaries might be martyred on sight, but they did in fact act very much like glorified spies, just think of the Byzantine outreach to Bulgaria, as a prime example of this. Or perhaps Roman Catholics in Jacobean England. Or the Inquisition.

:worship:


I think my main objection is that the AI might exploit this idea and send out waves of missionaries to disrupt the human player. Foriegn infiltrators are frustrating enough. Waves of missionaries?:eek:

BTW. What's with the :worship:??

I think my main objection is that the AI might exploit this idea and send out waves of missionaries to disrupt the human player. Foriegn infiltrators are frustrating enough. Waves of missionaries?:eek:

BTW. What's with the :worship:??

Well, I may be a tad drunk from the Obama celebrations earlier [still happening] (may be a tad = totally frigging blitzed and I'm shocked I can still type and hold my cigarette) but it's rare that I read about an objection that sets up the AI for an exploit.

Foreign infiltrators are annoying enough, but I think that thinking that a missionary, which has only one objective, in complete line with much of history, and open to be killed should that be the desired outcome, be a disruption to the human player, is something of a stretch; it's not like it's burning farms. Maybe a resistance bonus with an amphitheater would satisfy my personal atheistic prejudices and be a way to mollify that "exploit".

A wave of missionaries is more or less what actually happened. The Mormons got nothing on these guys. Hell, I've had more than one game where the Ottomans are RC and the English are Muslims. Let the AI spam that mess, maybe even spread Protestantism.

:bowdown: = worship the new Great Leader. Perhaps a new religion is in order. :cheers:

Truly on the cheers part! Happy inauguration!!!

What I really mean is that having missionaries that could ignore borders and constantly cause unrest in cities by introducing foriegn religions is just making them into another spy unit but with no cost to their actions. Imagine what that would do to Arabia and Spain for example who have religious UHV goals. There'd be no defence against them unless you stationed prosecuters in every city. On balance, I'd rather leave missionaries much as they are now but find another way to simulate religious rivalries in Europe.

BTW Glad you enjoyed your party. Congrats and good luck with your new prez. There's lots of good will and optimism for you guys on this side of the pond too.:goodjob:

I say leave the papal state as unplayable.

Then, when you have time, make a scenario where you play AS the papal state with the agenda to quest as above mentioned.

I love RFC and for papal states or native leadership, i think it would be better to make an rfce-based scenario opposed to working it into the game itself. i would like to see the papal states bonus as a way to deter people from claiming cities under the control of papal states. every so often, each nation should be forced to submit a city to a conferance, and like a conference, the AI votes on what city the papal state gains control of. this means the papal state instead of building cities, is seeking to "claim" cities under the banner of the church.

this could also give a nation a way to gain penalties (You defied the pope!).

Not a bad idea. Can the non-playable PS's AI be improved to actually make use of the AP or is this going to be solved some other way, like congresses like already stated? I'd like to see the Pope a significant figure in Catholic European's politics in the medieval age.

And BurnEmDown, the border-ignoring missionary was originally my idea, stated earlier in this topic (post #20). I accept all the criticize that came along with it, though.

Ah, sorry, didn't read the whole topic :)

Although I don't know if they should be playable, the way I'd like to see the Papal states is like this:

In the beginning of your turn, you start with let's say 15 points. Each point can be used in one of the following ways:
- Stabilizing: give one of the catholic states stability points, which will last 5 turns. 1 point could be 1 stability point. One civ can never have more than 20 Papal stability points.
- Provide a special unit: This costs 5 points and may only me done to three civs at the same time. This unit should be a defensive unit, or an attacking unit (crusades). If 2 catholic civs are at war with each other, only one of them may use the unit. The unit may be trained 5 turns, and 5 units are given for free. Free units will be gone after 5 turns.
- Claim a holy city: 15 points. This can only be done once in 15 turns. The city receives a gold bonus (10 gold) and some culture. The receiver has to be Friendly to the Pope.
- Spread hope: A starving, unhappy or sick city receives 2 happiness points, 2 health point or some food. This can only be done in 1 city per 5 the receiving empire has.
- Now, let's get to some real action: war! Whenever the Pope thinks that it's time, a crusade can be started. They can only be started between 1100 and 1350 AD (inaccurate I know, but this shoulnd't be skipped). It costs 15 points, and the next 7 turns you can't spend points, except to help the crusaades. "Official" crusades last 7 turns, but civs may decide to continue, if they do they receive 5 special Papal points. During the crusades, 5 knights are distributed among the crusaders. Crusades can only happen 3 times per game.
(- Release a vassal: Vassals are stimulated to break free. They receive special units, and 1 extra production per tile like in a GA. City defense is also 25% higher than usual.) Costs 15 points and cannot be done more than once per vassal-master deal (for example, if Hungary is Austria's master, the Pope can release Austria, but if they vassalize again he cannot).
- Assign a city: Can only be done once in 3 turns, receiver may refuse. Also, a single civ cannot get more than 2 cities every 15 turns. Receiving or losing cities is free of stability penalties. Costs are 10 points.
- View catholic cities: the Pope acts like a spy and can see all cities owned by one catholic civ for 3 turns. Costs are 3 points.
- Anything else? I'd rather leave out destructive opportunities, as they can ruin the game.
(- Save points for later (maximum of 50 points). If so, some values should be changed.)

Of course, you won't be doing this every turn if you don't want to. There will be a bonus, even a victory that's designed to make sure that the player will use it's abilities.

I know that it's a bit late to discuss everything again, and I like the previous ideas, and I know that lots of it have been decided already. I've tried to give some real action to the Papal States, that may be fun even if they are not playable. Also, it adds some replayability, as the pope can decide to help a really weak or very powerful civ, that can be turned into the world power that the world has never seen before (Lone Wolf, are you reading this?:p) So, what do you think of it?

Although I don't know if they should be playable, the way I'd like to see the Papal states is like this:

In the beginning of your turn, you start with let's say 15 points. Each point can be used in one of the following ways:
- Stabilizing: give one of the catholic states stability points, which will last 5 turns. 1 point could be 1 stability point. One civ can never have more than 20 Papal stability points.
- Provide a special unit: This costs 5 points and may only me done to three civs at the same time. This unit should be a defensive unit, or an attacking unit (crusades). If 2 catholic civs are at war with each other, only one of them may use the unit. The unit may be trained 5 turns, and 5 units are given for free. Free units will be gone after 5 turns.
- Claim a holy city: 15 points. This can only be done once in 15 turns. The city receives a gold bonus (10 gold) and some culture. The receiver has to be Friendly to the Pope.
- Spread hope: A starving, unhappy or sick city receives 2 happiness points, 2 health point or some food. This can only be done in 1 city per 5 the receiving empire has.
- Now, let's get to some real action: war! Whenever the Pope thinks that it's time, a crusade can be started. They can only be started between 1100 and 1350 AD (inaccurate I know, but this shoulnd't be skipped). It costs 15 points, and the next 7 turns you can't spend points, except to help the crusaades. "Official" crusades last 7 turns, but civs may decide to continue, if they do they receive 5 special Papal points. During the crusades, 5 knights are distributed among the crusaders. Crusades can only happen 3 times per game.
(- Release a vassal: Vassals are stimulated to break free. They receive special units, and 1 extra production per tile like in a GA. City defense is also 25% higher than usual.) Costs 15 points and cannot be done more than once per vassal-master deal (for example, if Hungary is Austria's master, the Pope can release Austria, but if they vassalize again he cannot).
- Assign a city: Can only be done once in 3 turns, receiver may refuse. Also, a single civ cannot get more than 2 cities every 15 turns. Receiving or losing cities is free of stability penalties. Costs are 10 points.
- View catholic cities: the Pope acts like a spy and can see all cities owned by one catholic civ for 3 turns. Costs are 3 points.
- Anything else? I'd rather leave out destructive opportunities, as they can ruin the game.
(- Save points for later (maximum of 50 points). If so, some values should be changed.)

Of course, you won't be doing this every turn if you don't want to. There will be a bonus, even a victory that's designed to make sure that the player will use it's abilities.

I know that it's a bit late to discuss everything again, and I like the previous ideas, and I know that lots of it have been decided already. I've tried to give some real action to the Papal States, that may be fun even if they are not playable. Also, it adds some replayability, as the pope can decide to help a really weak or very powerful civ, that can be turned into the world power that the world has never seen before (Lone Wolf, are you reading this?:p) So, what do you think of it?

That would overpower the catholic nations too much. Free units and stability that others cannot get in any way - I don't think it would work.

My idea would be to give a defensive crusade option for the Catholics and it would depend on the relations with the Pope. It would also tie with the underpowered Great Priests.

That is in the future for now, I am looking at the Offensive Crusades now.

To do for Rome:
- No one can conquer Rome (currently it is possible for the Barbs to conquer Rome)
- Rome cannot become anyone's vassal.

For crusaders:
- Initially I would make it happen at predefined years, but I think I eventually it would make sense to make it a World Wonder (i.e. Crusade I, Crusade II, Crusade III, Crusade IV). Those would be buildable only in Rome and if Jerusalem is controlled by the Muslims. (that would give Rome something to build, they really have nothing to do right now). Crusades wold be enabled by some tech (Divine Right?) so that they start around 1000-1100AD.
- Once a Crusade is initialized, the leader for the crusade would be selected by a congress type of an event (only among the Catholics). The two candidates would be the largest Catholic nation (considering spread of Catholicism and religious buildings) and the nation most favored by the Pope (again Priests would have influence here).
- Then some units (under the control of the Crusader Leader), would spawn near Jerusalem (giving the Arabs 2-3 turns to prepare, war with the Arabs would also be initiated).
- Conquering Jerusalem would give stability bonus, happiness bonus, start Golden Age and maybe something else. (The problem is why would any player declare war on the powerful Arabs and seek to control a city on the other side of the map. It would be meaningless unless there is a powerful bonus for capturing it).
- Crusaders would be disabled with some tech (Printing Press?).
- After the first Crusade (starting with the second), the richest Catholic nation (expect Venice and Genoa) would get the choice to spend a lot of money and take control of the Crusade. Then that leader would have the opportunity to send the Crusade against any non-Catholic capital (fourth Crusade dynamics, sack Constantinople).

It is a lot of work and while I have a clue on how to do it, I am not sure when I will get the chance.

It is clear that the Papal states need more influence then they have in the current version, but I think it should focus on the anhialation of the infidels then on spreading their faith.

The catholic church united the devoted Christian kings to go on a crusade or to battle heresy (excumunication/inquisitions). In my point of view the Papal states tried to banish the hereticts more then they tried to spread the faith. I would suggest to make their unique unit a inquistor and make the Papal statesAI use them and allow friendly factions to use them.

Also I read that the pope made every country to join a meating between all cotholics pay a sertain ammount of money to "donate to the cause". In-game this would mean that if you want to vote in a AP-voting, u have to pay a ammount of money depending on ur standing with the papal states (better relation less money), if you do not pay, your standing gets worse and u could get excommunicated. Meaning ur population get mad, other catholics get mad, etcetra...

(sorry for the bad english, it's not my native language)

I don't know if the AP is in the current list of World Wonders, but the way the AP works in Civilization is rather broken and generally I and many people donot like it.

First I am workingon implementing the Crusades. There will be voting, money, and papal favor involved. Then I intend to code the AI to that it in general the Pope would be building Missionaries and Inquisitors (mostly inquisitors) and gifting them to the Catholic players. Then the AI would use those to perform prosecutions. There should be other mechanics such as Excomunicatiion and Holy Roman Emperor and such, but those would wait for now.

I don't know if the AP is in the current list of World Wonders, but the way the AP works in Civilization is rather broken and generally I and many people donot like it.

No it isn't. It's they holy shrine of the Catholics and it's called: St. Peter's Basilica.

Current Crusades mechanics:

- there are 5 Crusades
- Crusades are enabled approximately around the years of the real Crusades (used Wikipedia)
- once enabled, a Crusade is called upon if there is at least one Catholic Player other than the Pope and Jerusalem belongs to a non-Catholic non-Orthodox player (Catholics and Orthodoxes did not like each other, but did not hate each other that much)
- once called upon, if the human is Catholic, he gets an opportunity to join the Crusade or not (all Catholic AIs always join)
- if the human player is the only non-Papal Catholic player and denies to join the crusade, the Crusade is canceled for good
- players that join the Crusade cannot change state religion while the Crusade lasts
- if some non-Papal players have joined the Crusade, a leader for Crusade is chosen
- there are at most two candidates for Crusade Leaders, the player with highest diplomacy rating towards the Pope and the player with strongest Catholic power
- Catholic power depends on the cities with Catholicism, their population AND the amount of Catholic buildings in them
- if there is only one candidate, he automatically becomes the Leader
- if there are two candidates, then all participants in the crusade vote
- the votes for each player depend on the Catholic power of the player
- the Pope has double the power
- the AI always votes for the player with whom it has the higher diplomacy rating
- a tie in the votes is broken in favour of the candidate favoured by the Pope
- once the leader is chosen, the Crusade starts
- the Crusade leader automatically declares war on the Crusade target civ and three turns later Crusader units appear next to the target city
- the amount of the Crusader units depends on the total Catholic power of all players that have joined the Crusade
- on the next turn the Crusade is considered "complete", the war still goes on, but a new Crusade can begin and Crusade nations can change religion

- there is a twist to all of the above
- after the first Crusade, there is an extra step after selecting the Crusade Leader
- we look for the Catholic nation that is richer than any other nation and has more money than the Pope (the second condition is hard since the Pope has the Catholic Holy Shrine and thus +20gpt)
- if a player satisfies the above criteria, then that player is given an opportunity to spend a large amount of money, but take over the Crusade (for historical reference read on the Fourth Crusade)
- if a player uses financial influence to take over the Crusade, then the player becomes the Crusade leader and can choose a new target for the Crusade
- the new target could be any non-Catholic capital or Jerusalem
- the Human player gets to chose from the list of all possibilities
- Venetian and Genoan AI will take over and attack Constantinople as long as Byzantium is still alive
- Spanish AI will deviate the crusade towards Cordoba
- upon deviation the power of the Crusade is halved (i.e. fewer units would spawn)


TODO:
- balance the number of units spawning versus the Catholic power
- rebalance the computation of Catholic power so that Catholic buildings would have even bigger influence
- penalize the Human player for not joining the crusade
- if Jerusalem is captured by the Crusades, give the player some bonus (i.e. a Golden Age and some extra stability)

I think the crusades will really give the game a new edge, but I do have some things I want to notice:

- there were also some minor crusades against the excumunicated catholic factions, if posible it would be a nice addision to be able to call a crusade on a faction with the lowest standing with the Pope.

- some of the crusades failed becouse the crusaders never arrived at the Holy land. if the crusaders arrive in a boat near the crusading-leader his land, they could have some lossing on their way to Jerusalem. also civ's like genoa or Venice could have a bonus of stronger boats.

I intend to put in Defensive crusades (eventually). The minor Crusades could be an event or something.

In the current version, all Crusades are land bound (i.e. there are no boats).

Finally crusades :) If everything works good then all this mod needs is completing UHVs, LH and personalities, and some minor balancing tweaks and it's ready for beta!

Finally crusades :) If everything works good then all this mod needs is completing UHVs, LH and personalities, and some minor balancing tweaks and it's ready for beta!

A bit more than that. Besides UHVs and LHs we still need to sort out the role of the Papacy, Protestantism, Judaism, corporations, more wonders, starting units, etc. Still lots do do before beta I think.:)

The bonus for capturing the Holy Land could also be extra trade routes, as when the Holy Land was captured by the crusaders and peace was declared (with Saladin), trade with the Middle East and indirrectly the Far East.

In my game (I play the Austrians) the Papal State has captured Firenze.

In my game (I play the Austrians) the Papal State has captured Firenze.

Barbs capture the city, the Pope gets it form the barbs. I will fix that.

Just had my first crusade experience, playing as Hungary. But nothing much has happened so far. The first time I get asked to join, I agree. Then nothing. Shouldn't I get asked to contribute something? Troops, money, anything?
2nd. Crusade happens in 1160. Richard of Burgundy chosen as leader, for the 2nd. time. Two moves later Richard collapses. Burgundy is destroyed. They had earlier collapsed the Franks. Meanwhile I have a little war with the Orthodox civs until peace is reestablished just after 1200. No sign of crusaders though. I look in WB and there is nobody about. The 2 Crusades aren't even listed on the events log. Does it get any better for the 3rd. Crusade?

They are all the same. Try getting elected and then you'll see what happens. It's no big deal actually, the crusaders lack siege and so they can't do much to capture Jerusalem or any other city.

They are all the same. Try getting elected and then you'll see what happens. It's no big deal actually, the crusaders lack siege and so they can't do much to capture Jerusalem or any other city.

Just had the 3rd. Crusade announced. I was asked to join which I agreed. So how do I try to get elected?
BTW. Guess who was elected? You guessed it. Richard again! Never mind that Burgundy has been destroyed. Death is obviously no bar to re-election.:lol:

Did you read 3Miro's post about the crusades? It says you need to either have the most religious power (catholic buildings and stuff) or be the pope's best friend, or both to be the only candidate and thus no vote needed.

Did you read 3Miro's post about the crusades? It says you need to either have the most religious power (catholic buildings and stuff) or be the pope's best friend, or both to be the only candidate and thus no vote needed.

I had just gifted the Pope a city in the Balkans. So he is really friendly. The Germans are the biggest Catholic civ. But he still picks the dead guy?:crazyeye:

Seriously. This not working. And I have reread what 3Miro has written. There are six Catholic nations other than Rome. And there was no vote. So why select a leader that has been eliminated from the game?

Complain to 3Miro then :P maybe he messed up some of the code or something.

OK - this is not working as supposed.

Send a save game right before one of the Crusades. Preferably right before the one with the dead guy. Also if you have saves before the others, send those as well.

OK - this is not working as supposed.

Send a save game right before one of the Crusades. Preferably right before the one with the dead guy. Also if you have saves before the others, send those as well.

Right. Tried to replay the 2nd. and 3rd. Crusades. Same as before. Here are the autosaves just before both.

I hate it when this happens!

I played for the crusade and the choices were Frederic and the Venetian guy. They chose Frederic. Then in deed, the crusaders spawned next to Jerusalem.

I will try the second save a bit later.

I hate it when this happens!

I played for the crusade and the choices were Frederic and the Venetian guy. They chose Frederic. Then in deed, the crusaders spawned next to Jerusalem.

I will try the second save a bit later.

I don't get it. Did you have a vote? Was there an election? I've just replayed both autosaves right through and I didn't get any of that. This time Burgundy didn't collapse and Richard was chosen both times. But no choice, no election. And no sign of any crusaders. Funny thing though. Both Crusades appeared this time on the events log but disappeared from it the next turn.

If something breaks down and you don't vote, then the game would pick the last elected leader (that is what the game remembers). I don't like it since this bug does not show with me.

Could you do the following for me:
try again the second Crusade again (third might be too late). Wait until you accept to go on the Crusade and then couple of turns later (when you see no vote screen) exit the game. Then go to your
My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Logs
folder and find the file PythonErr.log. Zip it and post it. (or alternatively zip and post the entire Logs folder).

It it supposed to ask you to vote, but something is not working properly. If it has encountered an error it would be recorded in the file and I would know where to look for the problem.

Maybe there's no election because not only is Richard the Pope's best friend but also has the biggest religious power?

If something breaks down and you don't vote, then the game would pick the last elected leader (that is what the game remembers). I don't like it since this bug does not show with me.

Could you do the following for me:
try again the second Crusade again (third might be too late). Wait until you accept to go on the Crusade and then couple of turns later (when you see no vote screen) exit the game. Then go to your
My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Logs
folder and find the file PythonErr.log. Zip it and post it. (or alternatively zip and post the entire Logs folder).

It it supposed to ask you to vote, but something is not working properly. If it has encountered an error it would be recorded in the file and I would know where to look for the problem.

I've done what you suggest. Below is the saved game when Richard is chosen. Plus the PythonErr.log.

Edit. I deleted all files and re-installed the latest version. Just tried again as Hungary. This time the Crusades seem to be working properly. I had elections and Louis was voted as leader for the first 3 Crusades. No sign of any crusaders though. Do you have to have the map revealed before you see the crusaders turn up outside of Jerusalem? If so, it seems to be working. When I looked at the Middle East with WB it looked like there must have been a battle as there were lots of Arab troops milling about in the Jerusalem area.

Crusaders spawn some turns later. Basically the idea is to give the Crusader target player some time to react.

Accept/Decline to go is on turn 1
Elections is on turn 2
Crusaders leave on turn 3 (also the ability to deviate the Crusade)
They arrive at the holy land (right next to Jerusalem) on turn 6

Crusaders spawn some turns later. Basically the idea is to give the Crusader target player some time to react.

Accept/Decline to go is on turn 1
Elections is on turn 2
Crusaders leave on turn 3 (also the ability to deviate the Crusade)
They arrive at the holy land (right next to Jerusalem) on turn 6

Thanks for that info. It all seems to be working for me except the arrival at Jerusalem. I've checked turns 5, 6, 7, 8 after the last 2 Crusades and there's nobody there except the Arabs. Shouldn't I be able to see them with or without WB? A couple of suggestions though. Could you make it so their arrival is revealed to everybody. And could we have a log announcement saying "The Crusade has arrived in the Holy Land"? That way everybody could see the battle.

Since the units belong to someone else you will not see the battles (they will be covered by the fog of war). I could put the announcement in.

If Crusaders have not arrived, cold you post another PythonErr log.

EDIT: Crusaders are not very strong or well balanced as of right now, they usually get killed by the Arabs fairly quickly.

Since the units belong to someone else you will not see the battles (they will be covered by the fog of war). I could put the announcement in.

If Crusaders have not arrived, cold you post another PythonErr log.

EDIT: Crusaders are not very strong or well balanced as of right now, they usually get killed by the Arabs fairly quickly.

OK. Sorry if I'm being a nuisance. Just trying to get things right.

I've checked every WB save from turns 218 to 221. And guess what I found? The WB save for turn 219 shows one lonely little Frankish spearman east of Jerusalem. ( I guess I missed him before). They must have landed in the previous turn and were nearly wiped out. How many units did they have have?
So you were right all along. It is working. Though I think our crusaders are seriously under-manned, don't you think? And it would be nice for the human player to view the action. As well as getting the announcement.

You are not a nuisance, I know that there are problems with the Crusades, but I cannot find all of them alone. I need help from you guys.

Yes currently the Crusaders are underpowered. They get some Lancers and some Man-at-arms. I will put in some siege weapons as well. Crusaders will also need something for defense, better than spearman (see my playtest feedback for the problem with overpowered mounted units).

You are not a nuisance, I know that there are problems with the Crusades, but I cannot find all of them alone. I need help from you guys.

Yes currently the Crusaders are underpowered. They get some Lancers and some Man-at-arms. I will put in some siege weapons as well. Crusaders will also need something for defense, better than spearman (see my playtest feedback for the problem with overpowered mounted units).

OK. I agree the mtd. units are a bit overpowered. Raising the spearman/guisarme/pikeman by 1 should balance that out. As for the crusaders 3 or 4 guisarmes and a couple of catapults would help, I think.

I believe I found a bug with the Papal state: I was able to gift a city to the Pope, and it wasn't autodestroyed.

I believe I found a bug with the Papal state: I was able to gift a city to the Pope, and it wasn't autodestroyed.

More like an unimplemented feature. I will eventually take care of it.

More like an unimplemented feature. I will eventually take care of it.

In another game, I've gifted them a city, and they suddenly collapsed! Leaving a holy city with an easy 1 pike defence.

Funny thing is, the city I gaved them and that eventually collapsed them was Betlehem :)

Here's a screen:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5562/papaldeaddg7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/papaldeaddg7.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img26/papaldeaddg7.jpg/1/)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5562/papaldeaddg7.th.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=papaldeaddg7.jpg)

Rome declared war to me! I am playing the Ottomans and in turn 1600 (when I won my 2nd UHV) they declared war.

I just figured from Andreww's last post that Bethlehem isn't on it's right place (ig it's the Bethlehem I know). I know the small city is very close to Jerusalem (on the same tile in RFC:E terms) and it's definetly in Israel's modern territories, which don't include the tile where Bethlehem is currently.

@ Andrrew: It is not the latest version, I think in the latest version there is no Bethelem on the Byzantine city name map,

Rome declared war to me! I am playing the Ottomans and in turn 1600 (when I won my 2nd UHV) they declared war.

Do you have a save? Is it a Crusader issue or he just declared a war? If you have a savegame right before this happens please post it.

Yes I have. 1 Turn later I won the UHV victory so I didn't overwrite the file. I sent 3 files. 1 of 1 turn before (b), 1 of more turns before and 1 of the turn directly after he declared war. I hope this is good.

He probably declared war automatically since Turkey finished the 2nd UHV and sometimes civs auto-declare on you the turn you finish it.

There was something wrong with uploading so I do it again.

It didn't work again, because I had an uploading error.

I try a 3rd time now. I hope it works.


Yeahhhh!!!!! It finally works!!!

Currently the Crusades code includes the ability for a crusade to go "rogue" and be bought by a specific player and directed against someone else. The Spanish AI will direct such a rogue Crusade against the Cordobans.

However, this is rare, and thus doesn't seem to adequately capture the crusade-like aspect of the reconquista. If Cordoba typically got a Crusade or two sent its way, that would very much help them to collapse.

I therefore propose one of several options:
1) A new "Reconquista Crusade" is added, essentially the same as all the other crusades, but targeted at Cordoba. This would be around 1200. Spain might get an edge in the calculation about who would lead this crusade.
2) Each normal crusade gets a chance (perhaps 1/4) of going after Cordoba instead of Jerusalem. This would lead to some games with no Cordoba crusade, and some in which they get hit hard -- this variability could be annoying for a human. We could limit it so that there would be at most one Cordoba-crusade.
3) Spain gets a boost in making crusades go "rogue" and target Cordoba. That is, Spain's treasury would be doubled for the purpose of taking control of a crusade. Since they would still have to pay to take control of the crusade, this would make it unlikely that they would recover enough cash to take control of immediately subsequent crusades.

All these options are relatively easy to add to 3Miro's nice Crusades module. What do people think of the general idea? Do you have a preference for a given mechanism?

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista#Expansion_into_the_Crusades_and_milita ry_orders

First of all, my main concern right now is that the Crusades are announced as "the crusaders have parted to conquest the city of Al Quds". Can't it be called Jerusalem in that line? Just to be picky. :lol:

Now, about the Reconquista. I don't think it's equivalent to the Crusades mechanism. The only significant foreign influence in Spain were the military orders, such as the Templars (they built several castles in the villages they were given by the king in Extremadura and Andalusia). There were also spanish orders modeled after them.

I think it'd be better as a totally separated event, which also takes to advantage some corporations (!) and free military units. I don't think it'd be difficult to code. I might even like to take a look at the crusades', mercenaries' (from RFC) and some events' code and think about it, if you're with other things right now.

Haven't done anything like that before but I think I know python well enough to understand those.

This could make easier the objective of helping Spain progress conquering Cordoba without unbalancing some parts of the game (such as its tech rate in relation to other civs).

And in relation to this I'd like to say I don't like some corporations as they are right now, especially the military orders. Hm. Templars active by 1600 make no sense (another event to prosecute them? ;)). Could jesuits be added? (that'd be neat)

Even another event for revolts in the country? There are plenty of them (post-black death in most Europe, Comuneros in Spain, la Fronde in France, Parliament-King war in England).

Edit: and I suggest to strengthen a bit more the Crusades as they are now. Crusaders should be able to take not just Jerusalem, but some other minor cities and hold them for at least 50 turns, or something like that.

I also think that Venice should redirect a crusade towards the Byzantines

IIRK Venice redirects the crusade to the Byzantines, if it is given the opportunity. If Spain has enough cash, then they will redirect the crusade to Cordoba. I think those were the only ones that I implemented, there is an AI function in that is called for the "Wealthiest" Catholic nation to decide what to do.

The mechanics was implemented to describe the IVth Crusade, not the Reconquista. I was thinking of implementing a Defensive Crusade - if Catholic and at war with Muslims and have a high favor with the Pope a defensive crusade could be called - just give the Catholic some units.

Proposal to make the voting mechanism less predictable (as of now, usually in each game the same civ gets elected for all Crusades):

Each civ "throws the dice" between the top3 catholic power candidates, based on its diplo rating with them. Human player simply selects one from screen.
For example, one civ has +5 with France, +3 with Germany and +2 with Poland (the three with higher catholic power). That is 50% vs 30% vs 20% probability to vote each of them.

Each vote from there is weighted by catholic power. Now the game throws the dice again based on the accumulated votes for each civ with that weight.

The Pope doesn't vote until now. Last "dice" between the winner from the former paragraph (60%), the civ with higher catholic power (20%) and the civ most friendly with the Pope (20%).

That gives a lot more possibilities.

IIRK Venice redirects the crusade to the Byzantines, if it is given the opportunity. If Spain has enough cash, then they will redirect the crusade to Cordoba. I think those were the only ones that I implemented, there is an AI function in that is called for the "Wealthiest" Catholic nation to decide what to do.

The mechanics was implemented to describe the IVth Crusade, not the Reconquista. I was thinking of implementing a Defensive Crusade - if Catholic and at war with Muslims and have a high favor with the Pope a defensive crusade could be called - just give the Catholic some units.

I have also seen Genoa redirect a Crusade against the Byzantines. (In fact, the Genovese did it to me twice when I was playing the Byzantines, sneaky bastards.) But, while it happened twice in that game, it hardly ever happens that either Venice or Genoa redirects the Crusade. What exactly triggers that?

Also, it would be awesome if, were Marseille and/or Toulouse (or any other cities in the area) independent around 1200, there were an anti-Cathar crusade.