OK so where city 5 would go? I like the plain hill south east of the wine...

Personally I'd like a little more exploring that way to help with deciding on city 5 - but the main reason for my post here is to let everyone know, that as the turns are rolling along, we may be up again tonight (well, tonight for me). I was discussing this earlier on MSN and we didn't seem to have objections to playing out the next turn - but if somebody has new ideas/plans don't want to miss them.

Schedule is currently as Renata has posted last page - just moving settler+warriors, we revolt this turn, just to let everyone know.

Hey, just a quick question - I just realized that we're having that glitch where all foes' land area is displayed as 1.00% on the victory screen... this happens all the time single player too (goes away at some point a while into the game). I think this is what misled Kaz as to our land area too - but anyway is there a fix for this?

Also, we are now in Buddhism (turn 58)

Our warriors in Ohlo and Sombra are now free to go wherever. Ohlo won't grow until turn 62 and Sombra until turn 63 (given current plans); and we should have new warriors on turns 61 and 62 in Ohlo (and 61 and 63 in Sombra if we decide to build them).

Other than that, plans for the next couple of turns (blue bits need comment):

Turn 59

Keep research slider at 0%. Set Sombra to build warrior?

By Sombra:
-- Settle city 4, set to build granary. Tell MS's warrior apologies for booting him.
-- One of the workers cottaging by Sombra should be finished and free to move this turn; send him to chop the plains forest west of city 4.

By Serpente:
-- One of the workers cottaging there should be finished and free to move this turn; have him start roading the same tile.

Ohlo:
-- Work fish, wheat, two plains mines and the flood plain.
Sombra:
-- Work hamlet, cottage, sheep and the river mine
Serpente:
-- Work the new cottage.
City 4:
-- Work the new cottage.

At end turn, Serpente granary-?.

Turn 60

Research slider back to 100%.

By City 4:
-- worker starts chop

Between Sombra and City 4:
-- worker goes one tile west and starts road

By Serpente:
-- wait for road to finish, then move the other worker SE to the hill and start mining (or finish the road with the free worker, which will allow the other to do the mine)

City 4:
switch from cottage to plains forest

Sombra:
switch from the mine to city 4's cottage

Turn 61

By Serpente:
-- worker SE to help mine

Sombra:
switch from cottage to regular fp

City 4:
switch back to the cottage

At end turn, Ohlo warrior-warrior, Sombra warrior-warrior?

On the blue comments - I'd like one warrior at Sombra too. After that, I think we need some serious discussion - another warrior, a barracks, a library? Sombra's warrior goes out to explore (possibly together with MS warrior - see what they think of that prospect as it doubles chances against barbs). I'd think the cap's warrior should go somewhat NE for exploration - that city 5 site we were talking about. Serpente should probably build a library regardless (unless something weird happens like buddhism spread and we go for monastery... but even then library is still good.) Regarding comments about Serpente later in the game - I favor it as a commerce city. I was actually thinking that the hills SE of Serpente (kinda E/NE of the cap) are an excellent spot for a later game production filler city though. It would be all farms (best at bio of course) and mines - but quite solid production. For Sombra I'd think the mines, maybe a watermill or two at most would give it it's basic production and then cottages all the rest (if we go US not even the mills are needed).

At any rate, I'm certainly not playing this turn tonight - we could use a little discussion - if nothing comes by tomorrow (~12 hours or so, around lunchtime in between my classes) I'll play out the turn as above then. Thanks again Renata.

Regarding comments about Serpente later in the game - I favor it as a commerce city. I was actually thinking that the hills SE of Serpente (kinda E/NE of the cap) are an excellent spot for a later game production filler city though. It would be all farms (best at bio of course) and mines - but quite solid production. For Sombra I'd think the mines, maybe a watermill or two at most would give it it's basic production and then cottages all the rest (if we go US not even the mills are needed).


Mines are the weakest type of production improvement in the late game. All but three of Serpente's tiles are river-ed, so the levee there will be quite incredible. Many of those tiles can have watermills, avoiding the need to lose tiles to farms at all.

About cottaging in sombra that is because we need to pay for early technologies and while it is true that it is great to specialize cities and that it is better suited as a production city, it'll do decent as a hybrid city and it'll give us way more benefit early on. Giving up some long term potential for some short term gain basically...

Actually cottaging it now is not a problem for it being a production center later, all we need to do it to be careful which forests get the chop.

I brought up Serpente in the discussion for library. I don't think it's the best place to run 2 scientists if we're cottaging, it's going to need all its surplus for growing.

Yeah a library in serpente would be just for the multiplier(it has a lot of health and with monarchy a lot of happiness to grow onto a lot of cottages giving a lot of commerce which would benefit from a library). Of course it is possible that there are more important things to build but at some point a library there will be very good. A library in capital(for scientists) is of course more important.

I'm attaching a copy of the spreadsheet for King Morgan or Unconquered Sun (or both), or anyone else who would like to play with it. It'll open in any version of Excel from 2002 on, but you'll need to enable macros. It will not open in Open Office. It's not entirely intuitive, but it's pretty easy to use once you get the hang of it. Methos and Niklas developed it, and I've used it a ton, so any of us should be able to answer questions if you get us on IM.

As for what I have on there currently, it's all pretty speculative past the next few turns, with the following exceptions: I've penciled in Monarchy for turn 67, which is probably accurate, and I have us revolting to slavery and HR the same turn. Serpente's borders should pop on turn 66 unless we're fortunate enough to get Buddhism there before then; the workers up there are planned to head for the wheat and cow on that turn. And as Kaleb mentioned, we can expect to have animal husbandry (for the sheep pasture and hopefully horses!) around turn 63. If we go on to build a worker in the capital after the two warriors, we'll have two workers available to head for any horses the capital may have on turn 63 or 64.

Have fun. :)

Ref macros:

I downloaded the sheets @Box, (thanks for the link methos), the macros don;t seem to work for me, food/production/culture etc. Can you confirm the macros are vaild and are in use? not sure if my version of excel is at fault. thanks

Excel will have the macros off by default, they have to be enabled.

Methos has arranged a place to store the spreadsheets online so that any of us can look at them or edit them, as necessary. Link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=310203.

The macros do work, but for some you'll have to manually turn them on. If you're not sure how, post which version of excel you are using and someone can help.

Just a heads up all, we *could* take another turn tonight (not anticipating anything unexpected). I'd actually like a little more input on how the pace of things is going - do we still want to hold it to one (or fewer) turns a day? We seem to be on a pretty solid diplo footing, nothing unexpected coming up, but even so I'm wary of taking another turn right after all the other teams cycle in case we want to discuss something. I may move the workboats right now (60) though.

Edit: To answer/ask some questions.

Warrior survived (1.4 right now), he has enough xp for a promo. Workboats found nothing new. My question: what is the rationale behind flipping tiles between sombra and *lisbon* now? I'm guessing it's just to build up the granary at the new city (so we don't overfill with food now). There is one barb out by lisbon too, he's near the NW mountains (3 turns away) MS went back to healing their warrior it seems.

"Lisbon" works the plains forest for one turn to make the granary come out right, yes. I had it be this turn instead of the last so that the new cottage got worked both turns; it fit better with what Sombra was doing. As for giving the cottage back to "Lisbon" next turn, that actually is not necessary at this point, with Sombra now in a growing mode rather than trying to build a wonder. "Lisbon" could work an undeveloped floodplain instead (and Sombra all three cottages); it'll come out the same.

Oh, and I think playing now or in the morning doesn't really matter, as Mad Scientists will probably play the same time of day tomorrow regardless. You may as well play tonight if it's more convenient for you; makes it less likely SANCTA would suspect us of collusion with Kazakhstan probably, and if Kaz wants the save held up, they can always ask us to relay the request to MS.

I think it's best to move as fast as possible now to cut SANCTA's time for negotiations.

"Lisbon" works the plains forest for one turn to make the granary come out right, yes. I had it be this turn instead of the last so that the new cottage got worked both turns; it fit better with what Sombra was doing. As for giving the cottage back to "Lisbon" next turn, that actually is not necessary at this point, with Sombra now in a growing mode rather than trying to build a wonder. "Lisbon" could work an undeveloped floodplain instead (and Sombra all three cottages); it'll come out the same.

Agreed.

Also, I did the production count for Serpente. The forests we need to save are the plains forest NE, the plains forest SE, and the hill forest. Since the odd one won't contribute health we can chop one of those - or hope the hill forest spreads east on the other hill.

I think we shouldn't play on until we have a better name than Lisbon... :ack:

I think we shouldn't play on until we have a better name than Lisbon... :ack:

You are kidding, right?

Naaaah.... :p

Yeah, I'm kidding, but only partly, I really do think we should come up with a better name.

Smurkztown. :D

Why is the worker roading 2S of chimera instead of cottaging another square?

That's just what was in the plan...I believe chimeira (have to learn that myself... is that it?) is going to take back the fp cottage. I agreed with Renata that's the best spot for the road (avoids river crossing) - I guess the road was deemed doable because there wasn't something else going on? - as soon as the forest chop comes in both workers will be working together.

Cimeira, not Chimera. :p

Actually if I remember my notes correctly, I had in mind to have the worker that is roading go to the sheep tile next, to be ready to build a pasture there on turn 62, should we have animal husbandry then. (Kaz hasn't completely nailed down turn 62 or 63 for alphabet, have they? They ought to be able to by now.) Anyway, roading that tile first will allow movement to the sheep without loss of a turn (though if AH comes only on turn 63, we lose a turn anyway hanging around), and as Earthling says, we will need a road there at some point for movement.

Not sure if it was the best thing to do of all possible things, but I wanted to send that worker to the sheep for Sombra's growth and figured that was a decent use of the extra turns.

Oh, and ... somebody still needs to take the MM-ing over from me. :D

Kaleb confirms they will have alphabet (and hence, us AH and writing) on turn 63.

I had a look at unit costs and we're already paying 2 gpt for costs (4 over the limit, -2 for the level we're on) and 1 gpt for supply (units outside our territory). How much do we really want the warriors queued up in Ohlo and Sombra? Our costs already require one more turn at 0% and one at some intermediate value to get Monarchy on turn 68, which is a turn later than it would have been without the unit costs.

I think we need the warriors; we have almost as many workers right now anyway and can't risk not having defense. However, I could see building a barracks for now in one of the cities (for xp on chariots/archers a little later). As our cities grow we'll also be getting another couple commerce from working more tiles; our economy is not bad at all (and in a little while we'll have significantly more cottages at Serpente and Cimeira).

We should build a settler in the capital at size 6 to claim the copper site maybe(though i guess we could build settlers and workers in sombra as well)?

I agree with getting a barracks up soon to prepare for advanced units. Also, how many free units to we get?

If everyone is ok with the barracks, then someone can log in and end the turn... (there's nothing else to do, however earlier we just wanted to wait for more input - so maybe the next person or two...)

Currently we have ten free units, but I have no clue what the formula for that might be, whether bigger cities or more cities might help.

I'm logging in to end turn, since no one seems to disagree.

Sounds good.

We should build a settler in the capital at size 6 to claim the copper site maybe(though i guess we could build settlers and workers in sombra as well)?

I agree this should be priority number one :) (then we can rethink our SANCTA razing plan :D)

As for "Free units" see
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/unit_maintenance.php
Essentially we get one extra free unit per 4 population.

Of course higher population also means more maintenance and civic upkeep; in fact I believe that these extra costs easily outdo the gains from lower unit cost, though of course extra population also brings other advantages.

So our total costs should actually go down this turn when we reach 12 total population, then? (Or stay the same rather, since we have a warrior being built.) That's good, anyway.

No, unfortunately it is 0.24*pop +8 rounded down, and I rounded 0.24 to 1/4. In fact we get an extra free unit at pop 13.

Hello everyone... we need a little discussion about what to do this turn (62). I moved the workboats (nothing new) but not much else. We have multiple warriors unsure of where to explore (the unpromoted one faces a barb threat, 2 tiles off, the one at serpente could do a lot of things - east, north, or stay put, and the one by Cimeira is...?). Granary chop is done at Cimeira, we'll need to know what to build next. Sombra will grow - likewise what do we work next? Switch off of fp to mines? I'm putting up the workboat screenshots but the turn is not done - however I'm sure we can have things worked out by tomorrow. Thanks for any thoughts/input everyone (btw I could go a little longer as turnplayer if no one else is ready - we all seem to be kinda busy right now, but otherwise of course anybody new is welcome to try).

If you were asking for my thoughts...
Unpromoted warrior heals
Sombra warrior goes east exploring
Cimeira explorer goes north
Sombra works one mine one fp so it's still growing...
Ohlo is working fp/growing
Don't know what to build in cimeira...monastery, barracks - it should still be growing at least.
I think the worker at Serpente is off to road, maybe the wheat?

Hello everyone... we need a little discussion about what to do this turn (62).

I think the unpromoted warrior could get woody 1 and move on the forest east... the barb would likely attack and we would likely win, then heal on the forest tile...
Sombra warrior goes east exploring: good for me, fogbusting near the floog plains could be valuable...
agreed on your other suggestions...

Cheers

Like US said earlier, working an FP is more worth hammer-wise than working a plains hill mine, since you can whip (and we'll have slavery soon) the pop. It obviously also gives better commerce to work the cottage. But I guess we should count on it, if we grow a lot earlier than when we revolt, it might not be as advantageous.

Unpromoted warrior heals
Sombra warrior goes east exploring
Cimeira explorer goes north

Fine with me.

Sombra works one mine one fp so it's still growing...

I'd just stay with the current tile arrangement (sheep and 3 floodplains). You get the warrior on the same turn either way, and you get 2 more food. (By the way, when I was logged in, I gave the 3rd cottage to Sombra and had Cimeira work a bare floodplain. No difference at this point, but frees up an additional fp for the larger Sombra to use at size 5 if desired.) The one good thing the mine does give you vs the sheep is an extra commerce, which to be honest, we could use. I guess I'm fine with either option, then.

Ohlo is working fp/growing
Don't know what to build in cimeira...monastery, barracks - it should still be growing at least.

Not barracks; it's much too low production, at least for now. I'd be tempted to just burn two hammers on anything for a turn and start a library next turn.

I think the worker at Serpente is off to road, maybe the wheat?

I think my original plan had him roading towards the cow, with the one that gets freed up next turn going to the wheat. Borders don't pop until turn 66 unless we get lucky with Buddhism. Can we get a warrior (or two) to fogbust out by the cow, by the way? That tile is going to be very vulnerable.

Next turn, the worker roading the fp by Sombra can head to the sheep to start a pasture there. Unless we have horses, in which case we may want to take care of that first.

Oh! And are we planning to build a settler for the copper? If we want it in Ohlo should we drop the barracks for now and switch? Or are barbs too big of a concern? If in Sombra, I guess after the warrior would be okay. It's slower there, though -- 5-6 turns I think -- as compared to 4 in Ohlo.

... We definately need proper anti-barb defenses soon, so we should try to get the coppercity pushed out asap. Barb pressure will only increase from now on. And Barracks is only really necessary once we have proper units to build

True enough. Settler now, then?

Settler in Sombra would be my preference, but we can decide either way I suppose... (we would simply work the mines at size 5 then). The cap is timed to grow to size 7 about perfectly right now.

I believe this is turn named 62: Are we losing 10 or 11 gpt @100% (screenies show both, I guess we moved a warrior outside borders so that the upkeep increased)?

:confused:

The warrior you can see on the cows did just move out there, yes.

So... we're waiting to hear from Kaz on tech before playing this turn right? Might be until later tonight for the turn then.

Where are we planning the next city now that we got horses? CS isn't too far off so starting to grow cottages in serpente(With satelite cities) might not be a bad idea, however there is still tons of unclaimed land out there.... I would really like a dotmap with future plans(or signs in the played turns screenshots). Makes it easier to get overview faster(now that i don't spend as much time on the game it is harder to keep up to date, this will probably change in the future, but it doesn't hurt to keep overview a bit better.

We don't see enough to the east yet(and i am not sure how much we dare explore there with warrior) but settling either on the desert hill or 1S(depending on what is around there) to the east, might be a good idea...

We need more workers near cimera? or is it two on the horses?

For copper site: We talked yesterday with Renata and Methos of the tile one south east of the resource... but it needs more scouting to see if we can't catch a banana...
But now we have chariots, this site is not so hot anymore... I like the plain hill south esat of the esatern wine for the floodplain area but this also need more scouting (these chariots are god sent!). The downside of this site si thath it can't work any cottages for Serpente...

Well we can settle the copper city still and settle the floodplain city later, but settling a city with no food is kinda :(. As US stressed earlier food is still the most important thing in the game(especially at this point).

There's also the gems that Peter Grimes mentioned, somewhere north of Cimeira. You can see jungle tiles already in Earthling's last exploration screenie, so they can't be too far. Question again is whether there's any food to be had.

The copper city is not quite *no* food; we can farm riverside grassland for some tiles that are not completely horrible. But yeah. :( Would be nice if we find something edible up there.

Seeing those shots in the Played turns thread, I favor Sombra for the library. It will never be the production center that Olho is, and with all those cottages we want a library there sooner or later anyway.

I know this should have been brought up earlier but with pasturing the sheep the city will grow before we get monarchy, might have been better to have a ready cottage for when it does so, we need to decide if we want another worker first(and delay the first GS another 3-5 turns) or just start directly on the library(and then work mine one turn over a cottage or something).

To expand on what oyzar said (we were talking about this quite a bit earlier) - it really seems like a close call between library at Sombra vs. at Ohlo. If it is Sombra, we might want to look a little at what might be optimal (know we're running out of time, but at least a couple of ways we could still switch next turn too, if we desired for Sombra). Sombra could grow to size 7 in just 6 turns - 1 of those is a turn of anarchy - but this would involve two turns of one unhappy citizen at size 6, and probably little prod on the library. The other extreme end is working both the mines right now (2 turns) and then growing when the pasture is done - library should finish in roughly 9 turns total, but this obviously sets us behind on growth overall. Just for reference, a library in Ohlo would be 8 turns - 2 turns for settler and then 6 to build library.

We also could talk a little about what we want out of these chariots - how many how soon is sufficient and all. Ohlo is a little ways into a barracks from the one turn we didn't build a warrior; I know oyzar mentioned though that we probably just want a couple chariots straight after settler in case of barbs. We do have a warrior by those eastern fp too so settling there safely is possible as well (we can also bring back the woodsman guy/trade with the guy in serpente). Thanks for hearing out all of this, any new input is also appreciated!

A humble question:

You guys talk as if it is clear that only in one of those two cities a library will be built. Why is that?

I am really asking due to lacking knowledge... :sad:

I still want a library in Sombra. It should be a commerce center, and will thus need one anyway. I'd like to style Olho as a production center, and it won't need the library then.

Calis, there is little reason to build a library in a town that will not run scientists and will never produce much commerce. That's a big difference between Civ3 and Civ4, in Civ3 you basically built everything everywhere.

Alright, I'd also prefer Sombra as a commerce city over Olho, but mainly as Olho seems to be much more potent as a production site...

I guess I'm ok with Sombra getting the library.

@Earthling

My thoughts on IA:

Granary+Hereditary Rule = slaving. Sombra can slave library for 3 pop and regrow on pastured sheep/fps. Ohlo ought to be slaving stuff too and regrow on food resources/fp. Working mines in Ohlo is subpar to both food tiles and scientists.

Wonders: Math is crucial here. GW, HG and MoM are good wonders for us.

Techs: Liberalism, Economics and Music are natural targets for our alliance. Early Steam Power is good for us (and MS/Kaz if they have as much river as we do). Representation is a less obvious choice, but it's an important roadblock to stuff we need: Assembly Line, Statue of Liberty, Emancipation. Losing Mids to Saturn/SANCTA can in fact play in our favor diplomatically as we'll have easy time prodding Kaz in that direction.

IMO one of the worst developments is to have our alliance slow research in a late Renaissance, hammer-poor, Rifling/Biology situation. That's going to give Kaz a significant edge in drafting Redcoats. Getting early Industrial before breakdown in techtrades for whatever reason plays for us in a number of ways.

Overall economy: I'm for cottaging while running some scientists for key bulbs, Chemistry being one of them as it is another roadblock for Steam>AL and for Steel, it being our cheap safety tech in Renaissance. Obviously, playing defense implies we do place more cities than anyone else, so right now we need to secure land with chariots and settle more cities. Neither chariots nor settlers require dedicated production centers however.

Finally, a minor micromanagement note: building the road on the hill north of Serpente halves the not too bad chance to grow forest there, the tile borders three forests, without gaining us anything the tile west didn't have.

Sombra definitely deserves a library. Ohlo not so much.

USun - that's an excellent point about slaving, might be worth it at Sombra to get the library quicker - unfortunately if we grow now we still have the unhappy pop before monarchy, but it still might be worth it just to grow and then slave that pop away (probably from size 7 => 5, and then 2 scientists running at size six). I'm checking right now if anyone has finished the turn, if not I will with Sombra tentatively set to grow - if it's optimal not to grow we also can just switch to mines. Mausoleum is a good wonder to bring up too, though I don't know if we're prioritizing calendar. MS does want the tech though and may want the wonder - ultimately I'd much rather let them have this one than some of the others, on the side of "which member of the alliance gets what shiny stuff..." Your long term plan suggestions look good, the point about redcoats being a major one.

Edit: Ohlo could do with a library eventually anyway - it is the capital right now, and even when it's not the cap it still will have some trade route income. But I agree there's much less of a hurry for library here if we get the GP at Sombra - and then ohlo is our best unit pump. I'll put in this suggestion here as I'd brought up once before - I would really like the HE in Ohlo unless we find some other monstrous site - but Ohlo is really strong, and with HE has a vital bonus to naval units - and if we move the cap it won't worry too much about the national wonder limit.

Slaving is a good idea, now that we got a granary in ohlo slaving settlers and workers sounds good, and regrow while building chariots... 3 pop slaving library and then using the overflow into a worker seems like a good idea, also we could built worker one turn before growing to not grow into unhappiness(since the library will complete at the same time anyways), but then i guess we should have put one turn into the worker before we finish pasture...

Another alternative is to use the overflow into chariots. If we are building more workers now we need to start chopping, but that might happen before math... Math is not too far off though so it should be fine. We should get at least one city up to the east by the floodplains and one north and west by the double gems(hopefully we'll find food there) so we need to get some more settlers out soon(whipped from the cap?).

Ok, we have a settler in Ohlo this coming turn, and we need to decide what to do with him. There appear to be three choices:

-- gems site, which has money post-iron-working, but little prospect of any food
-- copper site, for axes, and again, little chance of food
-- flood plains/wine/hills site

I'm not sure which is best. I'll comment in a little while once I've thought about it.

I would go with the later... but I will take a look ingame going home before making definitive judgement...
I think we lack exploration to decide on the gem or copper site...

I agree with Ras on both accounts. We're in the exponential expansion phase now, and we should aim for the towns with the most food for now, to keep the highest pace for the expansion. But if there's food to be found near either gems or copper, it would change the calculation.

I think I agree, too, but I can't help being tempted by that metal, or by the fast cash boost the gems represent. Still, I guess those would be default be our next two sites -- not like there's any additional food resources anywhere else that we've found.

I really would like to have the copper and gems, but due to the food I'm currently more inclined to the wines. The happiness will definitely be nice.

Well, we already have one source of wines in Serpente's borders. But regardless I think that city would be a better payoff right now. The copper is not that high of a priority because we have chariots; it lacks food and won't pay for itself very quickly. The problem with the gems is also a lack of food, and the fact that we'd need a lot of workers chopping jungle to get the city up and running; the city is also more on the frontier for barbarian concerns. The fp city should also be connected by the river for trade (and is easy to get a road over to, and cottage the fp).

However, as I've been discussing a lot with oyzar, I think we could use more opinions on how fast we want to be expanding. Certainly the next settler or two will be fine - however I'm still a little worried our allies would be angry about a lower tech rate. We also want to consider if we're going to start settling further out when we're at courthouses - not filler cities but only those that have strong resources (there's potentially a lot between us and Kaz - we don't know where our borders will be. With MS I think the jungle will prevent either of us harassing each other too soon).

I would switch to worker in Sombra to whip it next turn as Cimeira really lacks improvements right now... then we can grow Sombra under HR while slow building the library?

I agree with Ras on the city.

Can't whip yet... we're not in slavery. Also the goal is to get the library reasonably fast for the first GS.

No point to whip the worker, better to whip the library since the goal is to actually get a fast GS...

Flood plains/wine city has my vote.

No point to whip the worker, better to whip the library since the goal is to actually get a fast GS...

Can't whip yet... we're not in slavery. Also the goal is to get the library reasonably fast for the first GS.

:blush: Now I remember there are still 2 turns to monarchy (and a switch in slavery)...
OK for the lib if we 'll grow our first GS here (I am OK with this choice)... but still, Cimeira needs worker turns :)

I've put the slider to 50% for this turn so we get to Monarchy without running out of cash. Next turn can be back to 100% to finish the tech. I'm pretty sure this doesn't lose us any coins.

With Serpente now at size 2, what do people think of maybe putting a turn in on a chariot there? It'd allow us an emergency whip on zero notice, which could come in useful out there in the boonies. And we'd only have wasted a single hammer if we never need to use the option.

i think that is a very good idea.

Agreed - it's worth it and doesn't detract from any other production (prod won't be getting up much at all actually until it grows with wheat/cow).

Another note: we need to be sure of what we want to tech after Monarchy. Mathematics is good, but it may be possible we need to get something like Masonry/Sailing first (what's going on with MS...?). I know Kaz is headed for CoL.

Edit: I see Methos has already taken over turnplayer...I have to say I was a little surprised, but no problem by me and I guess if no one else was interested that's fine. Wish I could have told you a couple of things about the turn though... like how the worker from the capital could have finished the pasture, and the other worker get to Cimeira quicker, or I don't know if we wanted Serpente to work the hill right now (make sure it grows right with the wheat). Anyway, a note for future turns - I think Sombra will need to work one of the forests for additional food after Monarchy so it gets enough to hit size seven (obviously it's working everything right this turn).

Sombra seems to be working an unimproved flood plain, is this due to lack of worker capacity?

I was talking about some of that earlier with Ras on IM: there are some decidedly non-optimal things going on right now with our micromanagement. It's not your fault or Methos's. (If anything, the issue with the sheep workers was my fault, because I had seen that you had stopped the worker there, and yet didn't put two and two together until after Methos had played.)

Should we see if we can try to fix this?

Ohlo right now is size 6 working 3 plains hills, farmed fp, wheat and fish for 15 hammers and +4fpt. We have 19/32 food, meaning we'll grow in 4 turns if nothing changes (revolution ignored). We have 16/30 hammers toward a chariot. I propose the following: Continue with same tiles one more turn to finish the chariot, then switch to max food (wheat, fish, fp, grassland, 2 forests for 10fpt/5hpt) to grow right after the revolution. Only slight drawback is we'd take one turn longer to get the next chariot than if we grew a turn slower.

Sombra is size 6, one unhappy, also with 19/32 food but only 3hpt (13 in the bin towards a library, making 6fpt). Assuming we revolt on turn 68 as planned, on turn 69 we'll have 25 food and 16 hammers. A whip at this point would bring us to size 3, making 6fpt and 3hpt. We'd re-grow to size 4 immediately (requires only 26 food), so on turn 70 we'd be size 4, with 19 hammers (-15 if we used the overflow for a warrior) and I think 19 food in the bin. Turn 71-2 work sheep and 3fps for 7fpt and 3hpt yielding growth to size 5 on turn 73 with 18 food in the bin. At this point (73) we start one scientist, so we're making only 5fpt. We'll then grow again to size 6 on turn 76 and work two scientists at +3fpt. Sounds good?

Comments welcome.

If we go with Renata's plan, it will take 19 turns to grow a GS (3*3+16*6=105, 100 needed to get the first GP)... this is turn 92 ;)

like how the worker from the capital could have finished the pasture,

:hmm: Now that you mentioned it, it would have shaved us a turn on movement. Granted, we're about to whip it, so saving one turn (or three) won't help it any.

Sombra seems to be working an unimproved flood plain, is this due to lack of worker capacity?

Due to the whip, we should probably improve Crimeira first, though I'm with you in that I don't like working unimproved tiles.

Serpente: I've assigned the citizens there to cottage and wheat, which I believe will be developed on turn 68. So we're at 13 food now, 15 after next turn, and will be able to do 5fpt thereafter (edit: after the revolution), which means growth in two more turns (edit: after the revolution) -- sound reasonable? We could also do the hill this turn and grow at the same time, though I guess I'd rather have the food if we're going the 1-turn emergency chariot option, since any extra hammers might get wasted.

Finally, Cimeira just grew to size 2 and thus is also a candidate for a 1-turn "emergency" chariot, though in its case that awesome horse tile means we'd be sacrificing 5 hammers if we never go back and finish it.

Thoughts?

how long does it take for the :hammers: to waste away?

10 turns for units 50 for buildings, that said i think just building a chariot normally in cimera might be a good idea, it is only 6 turns anyways...

I'd be keen to fit another worker in a suitable city queue, i'm a little rushed for time tonight, later on i'll have a poke around and see if there is any room to build another worker.

Well the options is to either whip one in the capital at some point or build one with the overflow from the whip from sombra(putting one turn into the worker isn't a bad idea as an unhappy pop still give 2 food towards a worker).

Eh, Sombra's not the best of places to build a worker at the moment, given we want it working cottages that offer only 3 hammers each, with no bonus. Not very efficient. I'd rather wait just a few more turns until Ohlo has gotten a couple of chariots out, then we can build a few there.

Don't get me wrong, but I thought that after the overflow from the library (in Sombra) it will be very close to done with a worker, and that's what we were planning on. If you meant another worker after this I guess I'm not so sure, but it's certaily possible in the cap. I'm still in favor of whipping at size 7 => 4 - we get an extra turn of commerce/prod coming in at size 6, while if we whip at 6 => 3 we lose that. Since we're working all floodplains and will have the health I think we make a nice gain in food/prod from working this extra turn (and don't lose time on scientists specialists either).

The way I outline it on the previous page the overflow would only 20-odd toward a worker, so no, that's not almost complete. Would 7-4 work better in that regard?

I think we already have 16 hammers into the worker, no?

Edit: and I think the turn from 6 => 7 gains us a couple more hammers into the library, though that shouldn't make a huge difference on overflow (still a 3 pop whip).

We have 13 toward a library, but do we have a worker queued up also? I can't remember.

Ah, we do! That changes things.

Okay, I have three options for Sombra, now that I know there's a worker in the queue.

1. Whip library immediately (turn 68) to size 3, let overflow go to a warrior or a chariot or something, then regrow with scientists assigned at size 5 and 6. Worker would have to come after that, finishing around turn 80 assuming we continue working our cottages.

Result: Library on turn 69, scientists on turn 73 and 76, worker turn 80-ish. Enough extra hammers in there for a chariot or a couple of warriors.

2. Grow to size 7, then whip library on turn 70. Use the overflow for a worker, then regrow and assign scientists at size 5 and 6.

Result: Library on turn 71, worker on turn 73, scientists on turns 74 and 77.

3. Grow to size 7, whip library turn 70, use overflow for chariot or something, then regrow before finishing the worker.

Result: Library on turn 71, scientists on turns 72 and 75, worker on turn 81, enough extra hammers for a chariot or a couple of warriors in there.

And I haven't plotted it out exactly, but it occurs to me there's also a "2B" -- sending overflow to worker, but then delaying it one turn (74) in favor of first growing to size 5 and assigning a scientist (so 72 and 77).

I'd be keen for option 2 or 2B.

Sounds awfully slow on the scientists... not working any before size 5 is probably a mistake, should probably work 2 at size 5 even(+2 food)...

It'd only be advantageous to run a scientist before size 5 if we go with some variation on option 1 or 2; 2b and 3 re-grow to size 5 the turn after the whip anyway. I should also point out that assigning a scientist sooner will inevitably delay the worker in option 2, which in turn will delay growth and the assignment of the second scientist; I'm not sure it's even worth it in that case.

I'll look more closely at modifying option 1 along those lines, though.

As for running two scientists at size 5 (in any of the options), again we'd be delaying the appearance of the worker by a few turns, which is not insignificant. I'm also not sure we'd have enough working population in Sombra and Cimeira to keep all our cottages active given we have two workers in the area right now able to build an additional one every 2-3 turns, but maybe that wouldn't be an issue.

Okay, looked at it, and a modification of option 1 along the lines of what was done with 2b, assigning scientists at sizes 4 and 5, gives the result of:

Scientists on turns 70 and 73, worker on turn 76. Compared to the other options, it sacrifices a bit of library-boosted commerce (only working 2 hamlets, rather than 3). But at most one coin's worth of difference per turn.

Thoughts?

Oh, I should add that with that last option, we'll will have trouble keeping all our new cottages worked. But maybe that's ok?

I don't like option 1 all that much, and furthermore I think your option 2 is off anyway - the whip should be exactly one turn after the whip to size 3 if I remember it right. You have library at turns 69 and 71 - this can't be right, I'm guessing it's 69 and 70. (whip turn 69 7 =>4). There's only one more turn of growth to size 7 after monarchy. Also I'd be ok with working scientists at 5 or even one at 4- prioritizing the scientist is the whole reason for doing all of this anyway.

That's because of the assumed turn of revolution at the end of turn 68.

Yeah, I know, but we'd need that revolution either way. Still doesn't account for why you have the whip to size 3 happening 2 turns sooner. (or rather, I think that is the right turn, but you have the size 7 > 4 whip too late.)

Because I have it happening this turn, before the revolution.

Um, we're not in slavery again... can't whip until after the revolution, sorry.
(I understand keeping all this organized can be stressful so of course I'm just trying to help, not trying to expect perfection and all as that's what the team is for)

Oh good lord I'm an idiot. It's option 1 that's off then, though, not option 2/3.

If we are going to whip right after growing to size 7 it is better to whip right before(while still at size 6), but since we prolly aren't going to run scientists before size 5 anwyays it might be best to whip right before we grow to size 8. Not sure if we have to work forests instead of hills to do that. Another option is to steal the wheat from the capital(preferably while that is busy building a worker). If it can cut down the time to first GS it would be worth quite a lot...

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/games/mtdg/turn68/mtdg_turn_68_sombra.jpg

I like to always grow in a situation like this. Not growing w/ two turns on the mine gives you

8:hammers:2:commerce:

but plains forest for one turn gives two mines next turn for

1:food:10:hammers:1:commerce:

Yes, we definitely are already planning to grow; we already talked before about working the forest for the food. Thanks for getting the screenshot though, always helps everyone know what we're talking about.

Pretty sure we want to work the grass forest even so we can grow faster back from whipping...

Grow Sombra and Ohlo and whip chariots in Serpente and Cimeira.

I don't think we need to whip in cimera since we have huge los, but in serpente it might be an idea now that our first chariot looks in trouble, and it is not like we have too many imrpoved tiles there...

Why did we build roads on the horses? And why was there a road on the winery before finishing the winery itslf?

Oyzar, with all due respect, if you want things like this remedied you need to speak up with a plan prior to the turn taking place. Criticizing afterward time after time doesn't do much good.

That'd be a lot easier if important decisions were discussed publicly.

We've whipped the library in Sombra i guess?

Will we run scientists there now? I have a spreadsheet prepared, it will need changing.

The consequences of hasty actions:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/disaster.jpg


1. We were hasty in not discussing the need to whip chariots ASAP.

2. We were hasty in not discussing how to engage two barbarian warriors in rugged terrain with a single chariot.

3. We were hasty, after seeing our chariot was stranded wounded and threatened, to not pause and discuss immediate reinforcements from Serpente. Now they are 1 turn behind.

Well at least now settling right now seems best, even if it is risky... 76 hp means our warrior is quite the favourite...

That'd be a lot easier if important decisions were discussed publicly.

Things just need discussed, period! There is next to nothing going on behind the scenes that doesn't wind up here. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from outlining a plan for our next five turns and putting it up for comments or a vote, or for trying to arrange for some order around here. Instead it's all being left to last minute decisions from people like me and Methos, who have admitted we the *least* skilled of the active players in this team.

We have to play approximately every 2-3 days. Step up, or stop complaining.

Well at least now settling right now seems best, even if it is risky... 76 hp means our warrior is quite the favourite...

76 HP and Combat I. The risk to lose the city to bad RNG is still there.

Sure but we have 80% defensive bonus, and not going for it would mean waiting a long time for reinforcements...

Things just need discussed, period! There is next to nothing going on behind the scenes that doesn't wind up here. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from outlining a plan for our next five turns and putting it up for comments or a vote, or for trying to arrange for some order around here. Instead it's all being left to last minute decisions from people like me and Methos, who have admitted we the *least* skilled of the active players in this team.

We have to play approximately every 2-3 days. Step up, or stop complaining.


Really? That's the last post in Administracao Interna before the chariot fiasco:


Grow Sombra and Ohlo and whip chariots in Serpente and Cimeira.

No one objected. No one commented. No one voted. So I guess everyone was just fine. Where are our extra chariots?

Moreover, nothing was posted in Forcas about attacking the barbarian warriors. It's impossible to plan barbarian moves and spawns ahead of time, it has to be discussed on turn by turn basis, and occasionally on intra-turn basis as was the case with the Serpente reinforcements after we knew our chariot is badly wounded due to RNG.

Sure but we have 80% defensive bonus, and not going for it would mean waiting a long time for reinforcements...

We have 80% if fortification kicks in before barbarians move.

We should get 25% for defending a city without fortification.

We have +25 hill, +25 warrior ability, +25 city v barbs.

Logged in to have a look and finished the winery+go to order for warrior. Trying to get back into the loop after having lost my Internet connection for some time.

(Note: the screenshot was taken before moving the warrior)

Ohlo:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0032.jpg

Is working these forests such a good idea? I know that we want to make use of HR, but at the city's current size we've run out of improved tiles so any additional pop adds only 1 hammer per turn. I don't see how this compensates for losing the commerce and production from the hills--I'd think it would be better to whip something at size 7. Furthermore high city sizes decreases whipping output so how about whipping a worker (2 pop) and start improving the remaining tiles instead. We can do it now as well and use the overflow for a chariot. There's no reason to grow if there's nothing useful to do with the extra population point--grassland forests add nearly nothing.

We really want to mine that riverside grassland hill--it is an excellent tile (much better than the plains ones). Maybe the forests are being saved for the wonder we're planning, but if that's the case we can still use the worker to start pre-chopping the forests. Whipping a library is worth considering as well. I'd think it's much better than working forests. The problem with whipping a library is that there will be less overflow for chariots.

Serpente:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0034.jpg

The chariot has 2 hammers into it--I say we whip it for barb protection. We can follow up with growing to size 4 and 2-pop whip the library.


Also; do we know whether there's a food resource nearby these gems (read: have we asked MS)? If we don't know we should scout that spot soon.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0031-1.jpg

Good points all Rusten, I agree about the hills/forest and the chariot thing. I doubt there is food near the gems, if we can spare a scout or MS knows, we should find out...

OK, the barb is dead and we have a new city.

Nonetheless, our situation is still dire because we're wide open to barbarian axe attacks.

The only safe-ish thing to do is to whip the chariot in Serpente. Second best is to move all three NorthEast warriors to the new city area for fogbusting, which I did.

I whipped 1 pop in Ohlo and the city is going barracks - chariot - chariot, hopefully in time to reinforce the NE. After that, it's working mines and forested hills for Research, until we make it to Math, then workers to finally chop all those forests in useful stuff.

Whip away.

Chariot can look for food near Gems, move the other whipped chariot for barb protection.

After the worker in olho should we not increase the happy cap a bit, now is small window before wonders that we can build a few warriors for MP.

Ok, sorry I haven't been around so much these past couple of days, been pretty busy - with all the new proliferation of threads I actually feel like we're taking a step back (For instance, for those managing a single city we should have somewhere that lists, ONLY, what each city is doing NOW.)

Question: What happened to the extra warrior in Sombra? Did it go to Ohlo for that city's happy cap? On the one hand Ohlo could get another nice chariot out with this barracks, but then I'd also like it to go for another worker, then maybe a settler. My vote is to go straight into a worker (working mines, and I agree the grassland hill is the next best tile to mine.) I don't think Ohlo needs a library - hammers better spent elsewhere and in the long term Ohlo is not a commerce city. I support whipping the chariot in serpente, sucks that we lost the one (attacking the barb wasn't a great idea but I'm not spreading blame). Don't think Serpente should necessarily whip the library after that though - it could just grow and get more use out of cottages. Sombra should get two scientists right away (at size 5 we're still good with growing).

The extra warrior is currently standing by on the Ohlo-Serpente way, ready to reinforce Serpente if needed. Once we have the chariots the warrior is going back.

Another worker in Ohlo can't help much right now, there isn't much to do that doesn't involve chopping forests. A settler is even more useless, we're unable to protect our cities as it as and we're unable to scout for food for the gem city and the first bronze city. Mind you, our territory is littered with forests, hills, and forested hills which the barbarian axes will use for defense. Losing more chariots is a very real possibility.

The extra warrior was intended for size-8 Ohlo, to respond to the last two posts -- without it, we will have an unhappy citizen. I'm not exactly complaining if it was diverted for tactical reasons, just wanted to point out what it was doing in the area in the first place.

Commerce city or not; Ohlo has 9 riverside tiles, coastal fish and currently a palace--we will want a library there anyway. A library is in a class of its own when it comes to efficiency compared to the cost so it's very rare that you don't want one. We might want to put a university there later as well to unlock Oxford's University faster when Education is in (a university requires a library), but that's a long way ahead. However, I agree that chariots are urgent and for the time being a better build.

However, we might not need to whip the chariot in Sepente yet and work the riverside hamlet, while taking a calculated risk.

This is the NE defense situation:


http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj153/unqsun/def72.jpg


In case a barbarian axe moves out of the dark and is two tiles from our new city, events will play out like this:

Axe is 2 tiles away

t73: the warrior to the northeast moves in the city. The forester II moves 1 tile away from the city. The ex-serpente garrison moves along the road to 2 tiles away.

Axe is 1 tile away

t74 we have two warriors inside and 1 next to the city

Axe kills a warrior

t75 we have two warriors in the city

so we cant lose the city before t77, more than enough time for Serpente/Ohlo chariots to get there.

We lose the city v two axes, however.

I love how USun complained about lack of discussion and then he goes and just whips away and moves units without discussing it first. If you're going to complain about us doing it, then its best not to go and do it yourself.

I love how USun complained about lack of discussion and then he goes and just whips away and moves units without discussing it first. If you're going to complain about us doing it, then its best not to go and do it yourself.

Am I in the way?

Yeah, seriously, what?! That definitely was not right man - what did you even whip (rest of the barracks, for overflow I guess?) Whipping Serpente would have been fine by me, though I guess this isn't the worst move for the capital (and I notice it would have been happy at 8, too, since we just got the wines up...) And if sombra is building a worker, is it still running the two scientists specialists? Don't tell me we whipped Sombra again...

@Rusten - I agree ohlo could do with a library eventually, but chariots/workers/settlers are more pressing at least for a little while longer. Though things are really up in the air now

Yeah, seriously, what?! That definitely was not right man - what did you even whip (rest of the barracks, for overflow I guess?) Whipping Serpente would have been fine by me, though I guess this isn't the worst move for the capital (and I notice it would have been happy at 8, too, since we just got the wines up...)

Because we cannot whip a one turn chariot for 30 hammers, we had to do it now. The 8th pop could at best work a forest hill, that's 10 turns waiting to get the same 30 hammers, while paying maintance for this 8th citizen too.


And if sombra is building a worker, is it still running the two scientists specialists? Don't tell me we whipped Sombra again...
now

Scientists? AFAIK Sombra whipped library from 28/90 and the overflow went into a worker this turn. I think Methos had one scientist up, giving a cottage to Cimeira to work instead of the Horses.

Yes, there is no "still" regarding the scientists. The library wasn't up until now (this turn).

If we had run two scientists in Sombra before Cimeira grows again, we would have had an unused cottage, I think, so there's an argument either way there.

I'm very unhappy with the state of things around here right now, and I don't know what to do about it. At the very least, whoever logs in to end turns please take some screenshots, including demographics. I knew Inner Sanctum had a forge; the espionage value of the demographics is still far from zero.

If we had run two scientists in Sombra before Cimeira grows again, we would have had an unused cottage, I think, so there's an argument either way there. Right, 3 more production on the worker, as long as it still finishes this turn (from the floodplain food) probably isn't worth getting the Great Scientist a turn later. (unless we're going to be augmenting scientists with caste specialists, but we still haven't calculated that, and as it is the above holds). Beakers/Commerce is the same either way, so I just wanted to be sure of what we were working.

About Ohlo - the whip here actually isn't bad, a couple of chariots can't hurt - but what I was mostly responding to was the same point as Methos - acting without the turnplayer can be very troublesome.

About Ohlo - the whip here actually isn't bad, a couple of chariots can't hurt - but what I was mostly responding to was the same point as Methos - acting without the turnplayer can be very troublesome.

I'm not endorsing acting over the turnplayer. However, I strongly object to not taking the time to discuss key issues with the rest of the team. Methos didn't consult at all how to engage the barbarian warriors, nor did he indicate in any way this turn is going to end the policy of unilateral action by the turnplayer.

Methos didn't consult at all how to engage the barbarian warriors, nor did he indicate in any way this turn is going to end the policy of unilateral action by the turnplayer.

I would suggest you get your facts straight before making such accusations. Every turn I've played I've been in a group discussion via IM and had communications with other players. In my opinion, that is consulting.

Methos is right. A few of us were there online, and we did not communicate well enough to realize he'd misinterpreted the forum thread until after it had already happened. As I said, we need to change the way we do some things, or problems are just going to get worse as time goes on and the game gets more complex. I propose the following:

Starting immediately after completing a turn, the turnplayer posts their plans for the next turn. (Or they can go a few turns ahead, if that works better.) Changes get made as necessary to adjust for changed conditions. Everyone comments as they are able; further adjustments are made, and in the end the turnplayer goes to play the turn with a set of instructions that everyone has at least theoretically had the chance to comment on.

Thoughts?

There is next to nothing going on behind the scenes that doesn't wind up here.

I would suggest you get your facts straight before making such accusations. Every turn I've played I've been in a group discussion via IM and had communications with other players. In my opinion, that is consulting.

I don't know what's going on behind the scenes and I don't care. The facts I work with are the posts on the forum and the rules of CIV. For future reference, chariots benefit from the +25% defensive bonus versus barbarians attacking a city. I have nothing more to say on this petty conflict, nor I intend to intervene on behalf of Cavaleiros and clean somebody else's mess in the future.

I don't know what's going on behind the scenes and I don't care. The facts I work with are the posts on the forum and the rules of CIV. For future reference, chariots benefit from the +25% defensive bonus versus barbarians attacking a city. I have nothing more to say on this petty conflict, nor I intend to intervene on behalf of Cavaleiros and clean somebody else's mess in the future.

Unconquered Sun, if anything, this little conflict has shown that as a team we are not doing very good maintaining communication.

I like your suggestion Renata and will follow through with that.

Starting immediately after completing a turn, the turnplayer posts their plans for the next turn.

Pre-plans posted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7851305#post7851305). Edit: Thread moved to the old pre-turn thread. Thanks oyzar for pointing that thread out.

I would like to point out that we had a whole thread about "The Winery" - unfortunately this didn't prevent accidentally attacking the barb, but we were at least thoroughly discussing what we were doing. I think you may have missed this thread USun - I wasn't around on chat so I can't say what was discussed there though.

unfortunately this didn't prevent accidentally attacking the barb

Yeah. I brought it up in the IM discussion but at the time Renata was changing a diaper. By the time she got back I'd already made the move. She wasn't very happy with me.

We'd also discussed that we didn't need the iron yet due to chariots and wanted cottages, but that apparently was missed as well.

Oh well. The past is past, so lets move on and try to build up a better communication system.

In vinhenda, how about starting on a worker at size 2 and whipping it when possible(after 4 turns when working a floodplain + forest plains hill).

I like the idea of a worker in Vinheda, it will only be growing onto unimproved tiles anyway otherwise.

Can't we send one of the three serpente workers there when the wheat is done and whip the granary?

We could, assuming we are fine with the slower forest chopping/development around Serpente. I guess HG is not really in any rush, we want another city or two before it, but on the other hand we can't wait too long so we lose it to some other team.

I take it MS and Kaz agree we get the HG, and the other two teams lack both masonry and math atm.

Well we need more workers anyways. Those trees can also be used to make settlers... Getting those cottages up in serpente will be important and we need to build palace there as well(I would prefer to chop HG with burrecracy bonus personally).

Another alternative is that this frees up sombra to build a settler next instead of a worker(but I think we might need workers anwyays).

On another note. We discussed what to build in Sombra over msn. We are paying for 8 units atm(2.4=3 in handicap) which means that the 9th and the 10th unit will also cost us 1 gold each. As such we don't really want to build more units. We have enough warriors for now(building them before they are needed cost money after all) and we don't really need more chariots if we are going to build the great wall. Monastary will take incredibly long to pay off as we don't need the missionary ability due to OR being around the corner(prolly revolt together with burrecracy). Temple is quite expensive for what it does, and it is also very slow(a warrior cost 15 if you just want the happiness, so only reason to build it would be the prophet points and that cost 1 pop to run it all the time). As such the choices come down to research vs stonehenge. If someone else build stonehenge building henge is almost strictly better than building research due to us having research multipliers but no gold multipliers. Of course if noone else builds it research is probably better. The city is going to build a worker or a settler at size 6 anyways(we need to figure out which) as such it'll take a long time before it finishes any potential henge. Henge gives a free monument everywhere. That is nice, but music is not too far off so it isn't really all that important. It can save quite a few hammers given the size of the map however. The most important aspect of henge then becomes the GPP. If we want to build the shrine we want a prophet. The shrine isn't going to be amazing currently, but it will be decent(and getting better and better as the game goes on. As such if we got a prophet as our second GP it probably would be ok. Getting a scientist obviously isn't useless either, it can either build an academy, get settled somewhere or bulb philo or edu if we want that. Building henge would speed up the generation of the next GP in sombra no matter the case and since we are fine with either I think it is well worth to complete it. The effect of those GPP is likely going to be more than those short term missed research (if we settle a scientist (probably the worst option) it is going to give 6*1.75=10.5 beakers and ~1.5 hammers per turn. Now it isn't going to be built 60 turns before we get the 2nd GPP(under 30 most likely, so the eqivalent of half payback from the first GP alone if we do chose to settle it) so it might not pay fully back it's own cost in research imeadiatly if we chose this option. However the other options than settling a scientist is arguably stronger, and this doesn't include the effect it might have on any further GP's out of sombra (it might give another one where it otherwise wouldn't give one, but at any rate those further GP's are going to come earlier than they otherwise would)). In addition it gives the monument bonus of course and as such it should be more than worthwhile(compared to reserch).

Nice post Oyzar :) ... OK for the henge in Sombra then...

I can't structure paragrphs properly sorry, so all you get is paranthesis within paranthesis. One thing I neglected to mention in the previous post is that if we don't get the gold from henge before the next tech that will obviously be delayed by as much as the missed research we could have built in that time(might only be a fraction of a turn early or as much as 2-3 turns later on(for the full 120)). With techs like Civil Service (which we have still to decide who should research) and Currency where the benefit upoin discovery get rather large (as it is not just for us, but also for our allies), the snowball effect of not investing in research might be larger than it seems.

Is there any reason we're waiting on CoL now? I don't recall Kaz wanting to hold off on trading it, it's mainly just us trying to fool SANCTA (that plan is bust by now) and not needing it. But if we get the tech I could certainly see Sombra getting a courthouse simply because courthouses are good everywhere. And I'd rate spy points even higher than prophet - Sombra probably isn't a long term GP farm but it could probably get a second one at least.

A courthouse wouldn't save much gold(certainly no more than 3) meaning it takes at least 30 turns to pay off compared to research, I don't think 3 gold is better than 2 gpp... It is not like we have tons of spare food. But maybe we can build it later for the spy? The spy isn't best because there aren't anyone we would steal from in this game if it turns out the way we are imagining it...

Ok after looking over the numbers, building a worker in Sombra is rather poor use of our expansive bonus(only 7 free hammers, from the maximum 12(the cap would get 11)). As such it makes sense to start on a settler there after we grow(which will give 30 free hammers from the maximum 33, which is the same as the capital would get). The capital can then build the extra worker needed instead(before starting on other settlers). So Whip a worker in vinhenda at size 2(or do anyone have any better ideas there?), whip a worker in cimera(or do anyone else have better ideas there? See it's own thread for ideas), settler in sombra after growing to size 6(working a plains hill 2 scientists sheep and 2 floodplain cottages). Capital goes GW -> worker -> settlers(and whatever military units we might need, maybe with some whip on the settlers and building the military while regrowing).

I'm afraid we have a situation on our hands. Tried to check SANCTA's resources, but they aren't linked to us at all, nor are Kaz. We don't have a valid searoute to them at all. If there's a barbarian city or something blocking the coast, is Currency the best choice?

Can we talk to MS/Kaz and see if they have routes inbetween?

What other tech than currency do you think about? Even if there was a barb city it would only be guarded by warriors and as such should be easy to take...

Warriors? i though it was archers on Monarch?

Not if they don't have archery, and this is a WB save, so no archers for the barbs.... That is why we haven't fought any archers up to this point either...

Turn 78 internal report:

Olho will grow to size 10 this turn, and will pick up another forest to keep growing.

Renata joins Nicolau and Methos on the Wheat by Serpente, and the farm is completed. Serpente is working Wheat and Cows, and the third citizen needs to work either Hamlet or Wine, see my post in the Serpente thread. I've set it to Hamlet for now.

I must say that is a beautiful Wall we have there. Well done. :)

Take that barbs!!!

Indeed. Especially the part of it running down the ravine between the mountains. Nobody'll fool us by taking that shortcut!

I see we have a couple of settlers ready to found a city or two.

I'd be very keen to settle one towards MS to claim the floods and maybe some nice riverside cottages, the other could head over to sheep/horse to the east of Olho.

Also we are very near to starting CS, unless of course CS is just a placeholder?

Whats the teams thoughts? If we do settle 2 quick cities perhaps we need a few more turns of gold building to cover the maintenance costs. Added to this our palce will be up in 12 turns, we'll need a few more MP in olho to cover the -1 happyface and maybe another one as I see we're building a farm, any reason we are roading the forest hill next to the Sepente wheat?

Post your thoughts folks, awfully quiet round here these days ;)

I was under the impression we were going to settle floodplain -> double gems -> sheep/horses. Ohlo building another settler after the current one.

I prefer to build another settler in Ohlo too, and then whip the library for 3 pop.

As guv'ner of said city, I approve of USun's plan. :thumbsup:

So turn up research after 3 pop whipping a library in cap?

We'll not have enough gold to research all of CS if we settle 3 new cities.

How are we to escort our second settler to the gems? Currently we have 1 idle chariot and 1 idle warrior (about to get injured) to protect our new western cities. If we had the area fogbusted already that could work, but we're be sending the settlers/escorts into darkness with oyzar's settling order.

Are you suggesting building (with iron) or whipping a chariot in Cimeira?

I take it the second Ohlo settler goes east as it would only beat the 3rd settler by 1 turn to the gems while being closer to the the sheep/horse site.

I don't see the point to settle the gem site without a lot of available workers.

I agree with U Sun here. If we can allocate the necessary worker resources then it can be profitable. Hooking up these new cities to our road network is extremely important from a financial well being standpoint. Getting the gold from the gems flowing asap (once the city is built) is important too.

Maybe we should build another worker in capital before we finish the next settler then? There are already two workers near cimera, but cimera needs some improvements too of course... Soon there will be an extra worker out of vinhenda, that one could help improving the sheep/horse city.

That makes sense to me :cool:

Moar workers is always nice :D

If we can get to that corn + banana site before Saturn it might be a nice idea for GP farm, that is unless we can find a better site closer. It doesn't seem like there are a cluster of food resources anywhere. I guess if there is another food resource for the crab + cow spot that might be useful as well...

We won't have the time for Currency, let's get CS in time for the palace.

GS goes to Serpente ASAP.

So we are planning henge -> worker -> settler -> worker -> aquaduct -> haging gardens or something in ohlo?

Minus the settler and with a B/OR whip (most likely 2 pop aquaduct).

So how will we get the settler for the gems spot? From sombra?

Both Gems and Incense require a lot of worker turns and culture 10 (i.e. 10 turns of Henge). Ohlo will certainly time-build the workboat for Incense. The rest of the workload I want to leave to Sombra and Cimeira.

We really need clam/incense right now? I know it's close to the cap, but with this explosion of cities we've got going on I'd imagine our maintenance is picking up. Gems is very necessary but Sombra already has incense. What's the expense screen look like? My gut feeling thinks we'd want some markets up before we put that down. (It has been a long time since i played Monarch however. Not familiar with its maintenance)

No, we don't need it now. We can backfill it when we don't have other important spots to claim.

Marketplaces for gold only require really high commerce to pay out compared to building 150 hammers into wealth.

This map gives us so many fine settling options we can go ahead and hit the conqueror's plateau.

Marketplaces for gold only require really high commerce to pay out compared to building 150 hammers into wealth.
I am so with you on this...

This map gives us so many fine settling options we can go ahead and hit the conqueror's plateau.

For those wondering, read this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138473)

Cheers

I too think it would make sense to expand rather aggressively at this point. I'm in support.

Haven't we sorta been trying to rex the entire game?

Let us redouble our REX.

Mad REXing can scare the beejesus out of the other teams though. SANCTA is probably on the lookout to paint us as the biggest threat in the game.

As long as we cooperate with kaz(we kinda need to send them a letter), and MS stay the way they are I don't see that as much of a problem... The plan of building several wonders in Ohlo is also not a bad one, it doesn't really paint much less of a target on us than mad rexing though.

As long as we cooperate with kaz(we kinda need to send them a letter), and MS stay the way they are...

I am afraid us setlling the western peninsula will complicate our relations a little... but the cities are prolly worth more than MS good will :confused:

It won't hurt to play our hand down diplomatically. After all, we need more cities to compensate for our opponents fin/philo/org and maintenance could kill our economy.

Sure, but we shouldn't itentionally play bad to get a better diplomatic position.

Well we can send soothing words and assurances to MS, however the land has been 'open' for a while so it's rightfully ours.

wrote a post, timed out and i lost it

Coming at them with two settlers is pretty aggressive...our best move is to stick to commerce, which probably means east commerce spot before west (isn't it better?) and then take it from there.

The contested barb city isn't that far from us actually, only like 10 tiles east and 5 north compared to zhou.

Anybody wanna make vinheda a production city?

I think we are going to need more of em personally. I sure as heck don't want our research rate to suffer, but we are going to need some beef.

True production cities have food more than anything.

The contested barb city isn't that far from us actually, only like 10 tiles east and 5 north compared to zhou.

One of the Zhou chariots is badly wounded. The other needs 2 turns to heal and ~4 turns to get to that place (more if the way is very forested/hilly).

True production cities have food more than anything.

Yeah, we would have to farm it.

First step is to step up on worker production. We ought to have 1.5 per city at this point of the game, maybe more considering most of our land is floodplain, hill, or forest.

I second that. I do really think we should be building some military while we are at it. Two cities building a couple axes and chariots will not greatly slow down our expansion. After we have a handful of units we can go back to a strict expansion schedule.

We still want to build multipliers in serpente(monastary then market) and we still want to build wonders in ohlo(hanging gardens then maybe great lighthouse). Dedicating two other cities(cimera and sombra) would slow our expansion down to a crawl. Building 2 axes(one in each city) then going back to building workers and settlers would work fine though.

If we did that and built workers and settlers for a little while, say a worker and settler from each city or the hammer equivalent and then built a pair of chariots how would that suit people? Or even do the chariots first as their speed makes them more valuable from a coverage standpoint?

Sombra/Cimeira can't support all of our REXing, west and east. Zhou river won't stay unsettled for long.

Multipliers in Serpente have to take the backseat to chopping its forests (including 1 tile outside BFC).

Perhaps Ohlo could do a military unit or two before HG.

What are we teching next? Currency? We will supposedly get it ~4 turns before kaz would have gotten it which is enough to make up for the beaker difference from getting it earlier(across the 3 of us)? Or do we have some other tech we want that we can benefit more from? Paper? Philo?

We going to 2 pop whip that aquaduct in ohlo with Burrecracy and OR for nice overflow into HG? It is already unhappy but it would be nice ultilization of the short while the city have burrecracy.

2-pop whip seems logical, I believe we can instantly regrow a pop to work the new mine.

Interestingly enough, Henge switched the pre-chopped out-of-BFC forest ownership back to Ohlo. Perhaps the city will do a full turn as the capital, not just the whip.

We could whip extra settlers if it gives us more cities before HG, it might pay off more than waiting with building them til after HG. One extra city imeadiatly gets 30 free hammers(one extra pop, potentially worth more if we can chop a granary or something). A settler already costs 66-70 hammers. This means that settlers will virtually cost us 34-40 hammers if they can be planted before we build HG. This seems like quite a good deal to me.

Maybe we can build an extra settler in ohlo before HG? It will delay HG a bit, but i don't think we are in danger of losing it(even if saturn will get math soon), and it will mean more hammers obviously... Another moment is that it gives us more time to build settlers elsewhere, though i doubt we'll take advantage of that.

In general we need more workers. We have unimproved incense, and we need a lot of workers to improve the gems city. Maybe ohlo can build some more workers after HG?

As for the military units, Serpente needs to grow onto cottages anyways(after a worker), maybe it can build units while growing? What units do we want? I would think Axes would be best as sentries, but spies might work too... Or chariots to combat all the axes running around..

I like the concept of making spies, but I would prefer two more chariots especially if it will be a while before we make anything else military. I am in favor of having cities that are trying to grow making the units.

Maybe I am just ignorant, but I recognized in the "played turns" thread that none of our cites has a courthouse. Maintenance seems rather high in several of them. What is the reason, we don't build any courthouses? Don't they pay off, or is there no time, as other things (settlers & workers) are just more urgent?

The payoff on a courthouse is indeed quite long for most of our cities at this point. In a city with 10 gpt maintenance you get a 5 gpt save for 120 hammers. With each hammer usually being counted at some 3-4 gold, thats >70 turns for it to pay off. That's not saying we shouldn't do it, only that it shouldn't be prioritized over things that pay off faster, such as libraries or settlers and workers.

For settling cities, I'd think about getting the ivory city (1st or 2nd) down as well as the marked desert hill over by sancta (2nd or 1st). However at this point i'd worry about sending a naked settler towards santca, we need military with it.

The ivory city though, i would put inland which is currently unmarked. I'd go 1SW of rice.

And thirdly (and maybe fourthly too) i'd settle the jungle north of gems. haven't seen a screeny of that lately.

Researchwise i'd do another gold stock-up with the option to spill gold into kaz's Mach and/or Eng, but look to come out of it with us eventually teching Printing Press.

We are are putting alot of cities out. Maybe after PP we keep building those last settlers, fill out the rest while crashing towards optics and make an attack? It sure is alot of turns away, though.

Optics is not far away at all (especially not if we go compass -> optics after paper). We can definatly build a few maces to load onto caravels once we get them. Getting PP first might be better though.

The jungle north of gems doesn't have any food resources except further north. The problem with settling there is that it would block MS expansion against Saturn, that is not something we want to do. I'll make sure to get a screenshot of the area though.

As for the ivory city i think we should settle the best city in the area next, that means copper + cows + crab + ivory marked with an X. With windmills that is a tremendous production city post replacable parts. Once the immortal disapear in whatever direction i will send the chariot in the city south to start clearing out the barbarian infestation. SW of rice only have rice for food and ivory + some hills. It is not a very good city (though it can probably be useful for drafting / slaving and it is probably better to settle that one + a city on the plains hill rather than the "next city here" marker, they will have to share the rice though).

Optics is not far away at all ... Getting PP first might be better though.

The jungle north of gems doesn't have any food resources except further north. .

As for the ivory city ... marked with an X. With windmills that is a tremendous production city post replacable parts. .

I'm not too certain of how much more rex we have left - optics might come in too quick while we're still rexing. if so then it may be in our interest to just snag PP. I mean, we don't even have troops much less caravels (though that ignores talk of the circumnavigation).

I thought saw a shot of food up there - corn and cows? Are we reaching anyone's borders yet?

forgot about crab. Clearly it's the better city.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7646/civ4screenshot0442.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9071/civ4screenshot0441.jpg

Here are some relevant screenshots.

Oh and we don't want machinery until after we have finished some more warrior builds as after machinery is unlocked we don't get the option to build any more warriors.

I calculated roughly how much land there is on the continent and there really isn't that much room left for other contients.

Are MS waiting for a flipping invitation to settle that land to the north of the gems? :)

Minor comment: it seems the micro in Collina Cavaleiros wasn't as expected, the lighthouse cannot be whipped for two anymore (30h over 60).

It was never planned to be whipped for 2... While whipping 2 pop normally is better for generating hammers, what that city needs isn't really hammers, but pop. One pop whipping the lighthouse allows it to grow faster than it would otherwise.

Courthouses vs forges:

Colina de Joias have 24 hammers into a forge already. It does not have budhism. I am thinking to continue with a forge here. It is not terribly far from the capital, though distance maitenance is 2. A courthouse will likely save 3-4 gold per turn. In hindsight a courthouse might have been better first, but with hammers already into it I am tempted to finish the forge here first, this one is on the edge.

Rio: Distance maitenance is only 0.8 here. It have started a forge with 11 hammers into it. Even if there weren't hammers into it i would want a forge first due to the proximity to the capital.

Cabo da cavalos: Granary -> Courthouse -> forge . Distance maitenance is a whooping 3.55 here.

Porto Escravos: Granary -> Courthouse -> forbidden palace? Distance maitenance is 2.42 here though.

ohlo: MoM -> WB -> NE -> courthouse/temple. While the maitenance here is actually 7.61 and rising, we have more pressing concerns in our GP farm. Temple in case we do not get a great prophet first to increase the chance of us getting a shrine. At any rate it won't be a priority.

Sombra: Currently set to settler production. Maitenance is 6.54 atm. It is possible to switch to courthouse, though I would prefer to build another 2 settlers first (this also allows it to grow on a couple farms). Courthouse before the forge.

Serpente: Number of cities maitenance is currency 5.59 and rising. Currently building a mace. Maybe courthouse here is a good idea? Also possible could be missionaries or just more maces.

Cimera: Markert -> courthouse -> monastary or switch the last two? It depends on when we start teching, but i am guessing delaying the courthouse might be wise due to the high output here.

Vinheda: Too many hammers into that forge already so forge -> courthouse seems simple

Zhou: Similarly too many hammers into that forge so forge -> courthouse it is.

porto cavalos: This haven't started neither forge nor courthouse. Courthouse -> forge seems best, distance maitenance is only 1.33 however. This also have budhism

Paraiso: Courthouse -> Market here. After the market it doesn't have much to build, though i suppose a forge might be ok if it doesn't have anything else to build.

Colina Cavalos: with a distance maitenance courthouse -> forge seems obvious. This will get moai as it actually have surprisingly few land tiles to work. Remember Paraiso will likely steal quite a few of them for it's greedy cottages.

We have 7 internal tradeoures now... Damn the other teams aren't exactly rexing...

And yes US, we really don't want anyone to attack us at this stage ;).

Printing press is 2392 beakers. We'll bulb roughly 1750 of those. Turn 131 we are getting the GS from MS according to Husch. Getting the rest of the beakers by that time shouldn't be impossible (though we also need to clear edu first).

With all these courthouses, it might be worth it to think about EP. We are currently directing EP at Saturn and them against us. We have 108 against them and they have 88 against us. It will take quite a while before we get to see their research, though one might wonder about what the usefulness of that might be (126 it says atm). Once we start getting a lot of EP I suggest we start directing EP at sancta. Playing with their civics or other mayhem might be useful.

Looking good Oyzar... I didn't check every city last time I logged but will try to look again this turn to see if I can find something to disagree with :)
Agree with the EPs on SANCTA...

Cheers

We had a looong discussion about Paraiso and what improvements to build there on msn. It all started with me asking what to build on the hill there. With replacable parts not too far away i figured a windmill was apropriate, this is also what we eventually agreed on (15 turns to RP if we manage to lib it, depends on what sancta does with their progress towards lib).

This is not what the majority of the discussion was about. We are not in emancipation and we don't plan to get into it any time soon (if ever). We soon get replacable parts. We also plan several (hopefully extended) golden ages in the not too far future. This makes Watermills a lot better than cottages (+2 hammers vs +1 commerce for 10 turns then +2 commerce for 20 turns then +4 commerce, while also giving +1 hammer while we are in GA). I have set workers to build several cottages there. This might not be the wisest move. It might be better to just build farms now and watermills when we get closer to replacable parts. Workshops are much worse than watermills. As such it is better to watermill the riverside tiles and cottage the remaining tiles(4 grassland and 2 plains tiles, though at least one of them needs to be kept a farm for irrigating south, at least until we plant the city in the middle near the oasis, which might be needed anyways to irrigate further south (over the elephant)). How many windmills? We have one cottage that have been worked 2 turns, one that have been worked 6 and one that have been worked 8 (last one floodplain first two grassland). We also have a cottage that is not finished and likely will never be. First I'll build a farm over the last riverside grassland, then the workers are likely needed south for a bit, then the last set of improvements around the city are finished(mostly cottages, but a few farms here and there), then the cottages that needs it are turned into watermills (and the one farm) before finally the remaining farms around are turned into cottages. How many cottages to turn into farms? That we can see when we get closer to actually doing it. If we find spare worker turns somewhere, we can also use them for conversion sooner.

All the trees should go into the rice city as it will build forbidden palace which will help more than any building paraiso can build (market is obviously not that hot if it isn't really working that many cottages after all).

We don't really have the worker turns to turn cottages into irrigations.

We probably have the worker turns to turn the cottages into watermills however. Or do you mean that i should just finish the last riverside cottage in paraiso and let them stay (and not bother with farms for now)?

We are soon getting another great person from Ohlo. It will most likely be a spy, but there are high chances it will be a prophet or an engineer as well. I think the best might be a prophet. That way we can build the shrine in sombra. This will lead to better autospread, and also a decent slump of money in. Engineer is the lowest chance. We don't really have any pressing wonders to build after MoM is done. There is always Taj (it is expensive without marble, getting it in ohlo for the extra GPP might be nice, but ohlo rather want to work specialists than mines, so building it the hard way there might not be a good idea, we also don't really have anywhere else that is nice to build it, though we could chop it in serpente i guess). If we feel like building Taj the hard way. Golden age is definatly an option. While all our cities are actually busy growing now, they are working more and more tiles. The window to attack with rifles won't last forever. It might be better to get a golden age and pump out units (build during GA, slave and draft afterwards), than the alternatives. If we do get a spy, the alternatives aren't really that attractive. We can infiltrate sancta or we can build or settle for the very long term (which i think is worse than infiltrating sancta, as it will take a very long time to catch up to the imeadiate impact of a bomb). This might just be worse than starting a golden age though.

Of course if we get a prophet we could also start a golden age. But with NE, all the wonders and the ability to run multiple specialists, it won't take long to generate another great specialists. This is of course true for spy and engineer as well. This makes the other uses of the engineer more interesting, but i think spy might still be better of going for a GA.

New cities: There are currently two settlers out and about. One is heading to a desert hill a bit closer to sancta than Yaoi, another is heading for the fish spot on the pensuleinia near MS. We will build another settler in ~2 turns. I am not sure what to do with that one. We could build the clam spot, but that workboat is still 7 turns away. We could send it north, but there are barbs there, and the mace to escort will be finished in serpente one turn before the settler (as such be quite a while behind it). There are maybe 10 other filler spots throughout the empire. Which of these are the most crucial to settle, I am not entierly sure about. So I am a bit at a loss of where to build this city. What to build in sombra is also up for discussion. It is missing a courthouse and a market (and if we get a prophet it might get a shrine), as well as a forge. It could also continue spamming settlers, or we could put on the breaks with expansions until some other city is ready to spam out more (cimera probably). The best option might be just waiting for the mace that is going to escort it north (though it would also need workers if it is going to settle up there, and traderoutes would be troublesome given the barb city there).

market > forge > court for me... though it might be best to do another settler before so we can know which GP we got (in case of a priest, the market is a clear winner).
As for the next site, I would go with either the incence/clam one or the one marked "x" near SANCTA . That one would be more dangerous though...

Barely half the ideas discussed on msn get written down here :(. At least I know what is going on, but will be hard for anyone to take over for me...

Sancta is very close to building MoM (but after estimated we belive we will beat them, ZPV will post more on this later). They are also very close to lib. We might have to lib nationalism instead of RP... Would be nice if someone figured out exactly how much pop we will have on turn 131 when we are going to bulb PP, that way we can make sure to have the remaining beakers already in the tech. How much pop we have is ofc dependant on how much pop we invest in getting OU very fast...

Hopefully Rusten and/or ZPV will post some on OU and how to get it fast and why it is very important (despite having a slider that is currently at about 25%). I suggest getting universities in ohlo, serpente, sombra, cimera, colina cavalos and paraiso. Colina cavalos needs to get a library first. Serpente got time to build 2 missionaries before it have to start on it's uni. Those can go to colina cavalos and paraiso to help with their builds (or one could go to porto escravos to help with FP). Due to the bulb, it might be good to make it so all the whips that would complete unis happen on turn 131 (i hope husch ment we get the GS so we can use it on turn 131, otherwise we have to delay everything one turn, for 132, planning for this possibility might also be good).

Other than that we really haven't discussed what techs to go for next. If we get a GE, nationalism looks very tempting as it can instant build Taj which will help us quite a bit. Economics is available, the GM is nice for starting a GA (alone or together with another great person, with the taj this is 3 possible GA's available within a short time, 36 turns total, this could perphaps be used to build a game winning army? It would also give us free market which would probably be worth it). Chemistry would boost any workshops we might build. Steam power will power up our many rivers with levees. Astronomy could let us defend our coasts (together with chemistry, if we see sancta going for astro). Sci meth followed by state property would make watermill and workshop spam very profitable (and also save us a hefty slump of cash, even if we do build FP in escrava). Biology would power up our many farms. Constitution would allow us to run rep if we want to run a significant amount of specialists (spices, silk, eles and furs are all available, so we don't really need HR much once we get there). Corporation would give us a lot of +1 traderoutes, who would actually add up when put together. But it would also unlock assembly line if we have steam power already.

There are loads of options and i really don't know which ones are best (for the long term). Some help would be nice. Help for the short term (oxford, lib and naval assult as well as general development) would also be nice of course...

If sancta keeps up pace with us towards lib, we have no choice but to get it early, that doesn't mean we have to abandon the idea of getting RP from lib however. We can just let the game run without logging in teching towards PP (ok we have an abmyssal tech rate without gold, but if we can bulb before we get lib, it shouldn't be a long stretch left, and we can be gifted GPT to help with that problem as well). While we get PP, kaz can get guilds and banking then gift it to us. And when we have researched PP and kaz have done guilds and banking, we can then log in and chose RP from lib...

Now that serpente is above size 15 (+25% from population for a total of +200% bonus to trade routes). Harbors in waterside cities start to look mighty good. A courthouse gives 3-5 gold reduction (3.3-5.5 after inflation). A harbor would increase the multiplier in a coastal city from 175% to 225% (even more in ohlo). With 2 foreign traderoutes that is +2 commerce. +2 commerce at 40 hammers is about the same as -6 commerce for 120 hammers. As such we should likely build some harbors even before courthouses in some coastal cities. We can't build harbors yet, but when we can, they will be profitable. With OR and forge the cost of a harbor is 32 hammers while the cost of a courthouse is 80. At 40% of the cost courthouses are likely to be more profitable as such harbors should only be built before courthouses in cities that doesn't yet have multipliers.

Astronomy was discussed as an alternative tech to take from lib. This is to force sancta to tech astro as well to obsolete colossus. Our UU might be good at surprise, but it is still possible to fight it off with caravels if they prepeare.

Now that we popped a GE, Nationalism for Taj might be a viable alternative though...

Let's see (including Theology and Steel as 100% given):

Artemis, Pathenon, Chitzen Itza, Hagia Sophia have their uses but become obsolete in the near future.

Notre Dame is both rushable and nice. Apostolic Palace, Angkor Wat, Sankore not so much?

Taj, Kremlin, SoL are worth saving a GE.

A detour to Versailles/Spiral is likely inferior to a detour to Economics.


Out of the national wonders:

- rushing IW saves 700 hammers, but only 50% bonus without coal
- rushing Globe without Nationalism isn't particularly hot, with Nationalism we rush Taj
- considering our plans. we'll be running near 100% tax, so Oxford is not a priority (also not particularly expensive)
- rushing Wall Street in Serpente would be cool but we need a ton of techs, Nationalism not being the least of them
- rushing moai in colina cavalos appears inferior to rushing IW; same goes for NE and HE
- FP shouldn't be problem
- considering our economy type, saving a GE for NP is subpar to rushing Kremlin

Finally, we're in the rare position to combine NE and IW...just a thought.

Even if all we can draft is muskets, they are still better power per pop or hammers per pop drafted than the alternatives. I personally prefer to lib nationalism and then use the GE for Taj. Nationhood will empower our army quite a lot. Even if we only draft like 16 muskets that is still 16 pop saved compared to building maces which is equal to another 8 maces/muskets. Using the GE for Taj also deny it from sancta who will undoubtly try to build it to deny it from us (since we have MoM). The Taj GA will save us a couple turns on revolting. Running pac and caste for 5 turns certainly isn't impossible. That could lead Zhou or Vinheda to generate a GP all by themselves (at 9 gpp per specialist 34 specialists turns needed for 300 and 45 for 400, that means respectivly 7 and 9 specialists running for 5 turns. Obviously afterwards we can whip away whatever pop is left over as we switch back to slavery/nationhood/theocracy). Obviously once/if we get to rifles, matching drafting as a production method is hard...

I'd go for GE on Taj, but we're supposed to be whipping. Will Kaz mind that we delay the whip 12 turns? I suppose building units from tiles is fine.

Well, we're not supposed to whip for 15 turns yet. ;)
I agree with the using the GE for Taj, and it should easily pay for the extra tech (taking Nat from Lib, and teching Astro)

There's a very good chance SANCTA beat us to Lib.

Indeed, if we lose lib. What then? Do we tech nat so we can build Taj and draft(and deny Taj from Sancta, though i guess they can potentially complete it before we get there) or do we just tech towards cannons and whip an army?

If we lose lib, then nat. we need taj

oyzar sier (22:17):
wanna log in and count if we can get lib in 2 with a gA?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (22:17):
ok. I'm betting no, but I'll have a look
oyzar sier (22:18):
even with building research?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (22:18):
we'll see
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (23:01):
yes, we can. I g2g, but I think we can do ~923 final bpt
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF sier (23:02):
Ohlo: 34h *1.25, 28b *1.25
Sombra: 17h, 34b *1.25
Serpente: 20h * 1.75, 65b *1.5 * 1.85
Cimera: 19h * 1.25, 53b * 1.35
Vinheda: 20h *1.25, 34b
Porto Cavalos: 13h, 15b
Paraiso: 8h, 37b *1.25
Colina Cavalos: 7h, 26b
Colina da Joias: 17h, 24b
Rio: 11h, 12b
Cabo da Cavalo: 7h, 6b
Porto Escravos: 6h, 7b
Yaoi: 4h, 6b
Porta Estralas: 2h, 6b
Porta Nina: 4h, 6b
Ceu: 7h, 4b
Deserte: 2h, 7b

Ofc if we get GA now, libbing Nat will be rather pointless, but it might be worth the extra beakers we gain....