Those numbers seems to be before prereqmods, which means we can wait a turn with starting GA(1K which we will have invested into lib after this turn + 1.1K next turn = enough for lib(2093 needed)), if SANCTA pops a GS we just start GA and beat them to lib, if they don't pop a GS, we just chill and beat them to lib anyways.

The fact that we can get lib in 2 with just one turn of GA makes me wonder if we can get lib in 2 turns without going GA (and using the GE on lib). If anyone would be willing to calc that, it would be nice...

We can't... we are short of 223 beakers I think... I let you check that number... (I did 2093-[481+1.2*2*579 ])

We can do about 593 BPT. 2093-418-1.2*594*2=251. So we are 251 beakers short. As such we can't get it without a GA. The question then becomes. Can we get it in 2 turns with just one turn of GA, if so what do we have to do this turn for that? How much would it cost us to delay GA by one turn (and potentially not have to waste the GE at all)?

Well, my figure of 923bpt is after pre-req mods. It's 769 before. So we can't get lib in 2t with just one turn of GA

oh damn, so we need to start the GA now if we want to make it in time then..

chat with Indiansmoke and Renata:

Indiansmoke dit :
hello
Raskolnikov dit :
hi
Raskolnikov dit :
Oyzar just left...
Indiansmoke dit :
ok
Indiansmoke dit :
have you decided about golden age?
Raskolnikov dit :
it appears our calculations were maybe too much optimistic
Raskolnikov dit :
perhaps we have to start it THIS turn to beat SANCTA

Renata a rejoint la conversation.

Indiansmoke dit :
start golden age?
Raskolnikov dit :
yeah
Indiansmoke dit :
it seems so
Renata dit :
hi, this is Renata
Indiansmoke dit :
but even with GA you might lose it
Indiansmoke dit :
hi Renata
Raskolnikov dit :
hum
Raskolnikov dit :
what makes you say that?
Renata dit :
oyzar's not around?
Indiansmoke dit :
If tehy haev the scientist still they will get it in 1
Raskolnikov dit :
we can have it in 2 turns
Raskolnikov dit :
no Renata...
Raskolnikov dit :
he just left
Renata dit :
ok
Raskolnikov dit :
ouch, one turn is problematic indeed
Indiansmoke dit :
y
Indiansmoke dit :
but they might have used scientist on education
Raskolnikov dit :
is it possible that Oyzar have done a mistake???
Raskolnikov dit :
they did
Indiansmoke dit :
If the used scientist on Education then they have already started liberialism this turn
Indiansmoke dit :
If they used him now that is
Raskolnikov dit :
they can finish it in 1 turn?
Indiansmoke dit :
no
Indiansmoke dit :
only bulb
Renata dit :
they would have to get another scientist next turn then, correct?
Renata dit :
they don't have one now?
Raskolnikov dit :
yeah
Indiansmoke dit :
Anyway using the eng is the only chance to get Liberialism
Raskolnikov dit :
yeah
Raskolnikov dit :
but we need to know if it is even usefull
Raskolnikov dit :
we won't use it this way if it's to be beaten at this race
Indiansmoke dit :
ya but you don't know do you?
Raskolnikov dit :
I thought we knew
Raskolnikov dit :

Indiansmoke dit :
Ok then you will use him this turn?
Raskolnikov dit :
but Oyzar handled all this thinking, I am back from vacations (like Kaleb), so I might ommit some stuffs
Raskolnikov dit :
it's what is currently planned yes
Indiansmoke dit :
ok
Indiansmoke dit :
so what are you getting nationalism?
Indiansmoke dit :
I dought we can have optics in 2
Raskolnikov dit :
hum that needs me to check the forum...
Raskolnikov dit :
Nancy?
Raskolnikov dit :
an idea?
Renata dit :
i've beenout of the loop thelast couple of days too due to frustration over ... stuff, so i don't know
Renata dit :
i know nationalism has been discussed
Indiansmoke dit :
Ok lets see if we get optics in 2..i dought but have to test
Renata dit :
ok
Raskolnikov dit :
yeah
Raskolnikov dit :
nationalism seems the most likely
Raskolnikov dit :
we'll keep you informed if that change
Indiansmoke dit :
y
Raskolnikov dit :
if you can't have optic in 2, whill you still do it?
Indiansmoke dit :
yes
Raskolnikov dit :
(you perhaps told that to Oyz already, sorry if it's the case)
Raskolnikov dit :
ok
Indiansmoke dit :
we need caravels
Raskolnikov dit :
got that
Indiansmoke dit :
and are hoping that with the golden age you wil get from Taj you will be able to make some carracks and some units for us
Raskolnikov dit :
that's the plan
Raskolnikov dit :
for SANCTA might be more accurate
Renata dit :
lol
Indiansmoke dit :
for Sancta?
Renata dit :
we keep amusing ourselves wondering what memphus will think when a few carracks show up offshore
Indiansmoke dit :
ah yes
Indiansmoke dit :
lol
Raskolnikov dit :
don't be afraid
Raskolnikov dit :
to smack SANCTA
Indiansmoke dit :
got it
Indiansmoke dit :
I am not afraid lol
Renata dit :
it'll benefit us to keep them guessing where we're headed
Indiansmoke dit :
why should I ?
Raskolnikov dit :
indeed
Raskolnikov dit :
no reason
Indiansmoke dit :
BTW Sancta have a few HA's now
Indiansmoke dit :
next turn we will have nice screen with the spy, and more accurate info on the numbers
Raskolnikov dit :
nice!
Raskolnikov dit :
can't wait to see taht
Indiansmoke dit :
I assume you have a couple of spears or longbows at the front city
Indiansmoke dit :
and not just warriors
Indiansmoke dit :
just in case
Raskolnikov dit :
Oyzar is our TP you know...
Raskolnikov dit :
but yeah
Raskolnikov dit :
we are increasing our military presence
Indiansmoke dit :
Just tell him to be abit carefull with that front city
Renata dit :
longbows, i think, not sure about spears
Indiansmoke dit :
Longbows are fine
Renata dit :
ZPV will be taking over as TP in a few turns


@Oyzar: I hope I was better than last night ;)
I cut some unrelated stuffs in the end :mischief:
Cheers

Well, indiansmoke is just plain wrong. Sancta can't research Liberalism in 1t next turn without a lightbulb, and they can't do that without already having a GS - we are sure they used the last one on Educ, right?

So if we research Lib in 2t with a GA (which I think we should do), we are sure to get it

We are pretty sure they used the GS on edu, they now have 222 gold. Saturn is making 148 max. At "full" research they were still 3 turns away from edu... They can't have started Lib because they don't have philo yet.

Nationalism is not particularly hot without a GE to burn on Taj.

Getting astro which is 700 beakers more expensive might be better as it together with chem soon means we can really put pressure on sancta's coast(so they have to research astro to obsolete colossus).

Astro is mandatory, once we have it SANCTA have no choice but to follow.

I'm not sure about Optics in 2 turns though. Do Kaz have Compass?

They would have to do compass in 1 and optics in 1. I belive they started on compass this turn, but still sounds implausible. They do get 12% civknow mods on compass though.

SANCTA got Lib -> Nat. Moreover, the way turn events are listed appears to indicate SANCTA did not need the GP born this turn at Inner Sanctum (a GS).

Also, Saturn can destroy our border city next turn.

Also, Saturn can destroy our border city next turn.

We can prevent that, by placing a worker on the only open tile between their Immortal and our city. That way, they can't attack a second time with that unit, and therefore can't capture the city. We want to improve that tile anyway, so I expect to do that this turn.

Here are my thoughts on the game:

What do we want to get from a stint in Caste+Pacifism?
Great Scientists, to lightbulb Chem+Astro.
A Great Prophet, to build a shrine.
A Great Artist?

I propose to use a short stint in Caste+Pac to pop some GPs very quickly via starvation, while mimising the time we can't use Slavery.

We don't want to revolt right away, because of the possible threat against our border city with Saturn (Porta Estralas)

We can use the unpolluted gene pools of Paraiso and Cimera to generate the first two GPs (GS), losing 5 population total if we start starving at size 12 (first turn of max specialists doesn't kill a pop due to food in the box). Ohlo, where I plan to build NE immediately, can the generate another GSomething, and get a large chunk of the next GP done, before we have to revolt back to Slavery and Theology at the end of the golden age.

My general priorities aside from this will be building Barracks and Forges, and growing population as much as feasible. The new cities will be farmed, using the available workers to speed development as much as possible - they are there to be whipped.

This turn, I will put some beakers into PP, and will then go back to generating gold. The beakers in PP should be just enough to allow us to research it mid-turn with a lightbulb, gaining the extra coins from villages that turn.

I will hold off for a short while, but since the timer is low, if I don't hear much soon, I'll have to go ahead, and we can make changes next turn if there is a better plan.

Getting 2 scientists through starving and a 3rd from ohlo(without starving) sounds good.

So we'll be revolting to caste/pac once NE is done?

Getting 2 scientists through starving and a 3rd from ohlo(without starving) sounds good.

Where are these coming from? all from Ohlo?

What's our research plans after PP? If we have alot of surplus beakers after PP it might be better to pour them into a tech with a lesser prereq bonus (like gunpowder or something), even if for a turn (possible at 0% science) and come back to it later.

What are we doing with this golden age? I didn't have a single GP running. And it kills me to be working non-riverside grass farms even though its what we need in the smaller cities.

Not quite the clearest transition, all and any input appreciated

No the other scientists are comming from paraiso and cimera, they can run full set of scientists(13 and 12 i belive) to generate GS very fast. They will lose some pop(5 ZPV said), but getting GS is worth losing some pop over...

Well, last i remember the NE looked to be completed with plenty of overflow, meaning it will be completed the same turn with OR or without. Maybe we revolt to caste/pac this turn and get started on those GS now?

If that is what you calculate then go for it. That said remember that NE counts for GPP the turn it is constructed so if you revolt on the turn before it is done then start moving mines to scientists they will count for GPP with full multiplier (pac, NE and GA).

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0007-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0011-1.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0012-1.jpg

Calculations have a size 12 city w/ at least 22 food (of which we'll have 2 in two turns, 1 right now) able to hit 300GPP in 3 turns losing 1 pop and 400GPP in 4 turns losing 2 pop. So it won't be a problem to wait, and use the caste/pac swith for the end of our GA. The thing I forget though, is whether the turns in between allowed civics changes is 4 or 5 turns. If it's 5 i think we switch in 2 turns with 6 GA turns left showing and then in five turns have the switch into theocracy or whatever. That'll be enough time to get the two GS popped and i haven't don'e calcs but I'd imagine the thrid one in Ohlo wouldn't be too far behind.

But for Paraiso and Cimeria, how do we get the GS to pop in the city we want if both of them will his the 300GPP on the same turn? I'd rather have the first one pop in Cimeria as Paraiso shares more BFC with other cities. I ran a scientist in Cimeria thinking maybe having more GPP is the anwser but that was also to have sombra steal a FP to grow in 2 instead of 3 turns.

Are we looking to revolt into military civics (Vass/Theo) at the end of our GA? Theology is unreseached by anyone (like we need another holy city). I see our tech line as being compass>optics>bulb Astro w/ two GS>Gunpowder>bulb some of Chem>Steel. Should we slip theo somewhere in there?

To give an idea of our tech, we are 40% +14:gold:, +204:gold:@0%, -273:gold:@100%. We have just over 600:gold: and are unable to research anything past optics till our 2nd GS comes in. under current GA rates, steel is 7 turns @ 100%:science: but chem prereq (unaccounted for???) could mean more like 5.8 turns. Gunpowder is currently 2.7 turns@100%:science:. So we'll probably get steel maybe like 2-6 turns after golden age and like 2-3 turn later with theo slipped in. I'd prolly lean towards slipping theo in.

By the way, MS just gifted us a GS, am I supposed to gift them PP. And both them and kaz have Compass which would be lovely to get instead of researching.

I also expect us to lose the circumnavigation as santca got optics last turn. If given compass we could probably get optics in 1 turn and whip in colina (which we would need to get compass like now cause we'll be switching to caste in about 2 turns anyway. I believe sancta is in caste right now anyway so maybe a whip could be them but it looks like they'd have a 2-3 turn head start. But i'd need compass offered to me next turn to have a shot.

Both serpente and cimeria finished thier buildings (uni and forge?). i was thinking a barracks for each (both 2 turns) and then units.

And then there's the Husch message about the desert. looks fine to me.

Compass and optics we will get from Kaz, so researching those doesn't actually help, I guess we need to get theology ourselves (can get it while kaz get guilds I guess), then we can get gunpowder/chem/astro while they get guilds -> banking. We really don't want to starve our burrecracy capital and on the same note i really doubt we want to go vassalage given how powerful bureaucracy is with our setup.

We really don't want to starve our burrecracy capital and on the same note i really doubt we want to go vassalage given how powerful bureaucracy is with our setup.

Agreed.

Well, if we don't have to research comp or optics then our research is purely at the pace of the second GS pop. In the meantime I'll get Theo (asap if no objections) and all but 1 turn of gunpowder but then just stockpile gold. We should have a hefty sum to finish researching chem and some of steel.

The slider was set to fall just short of completing Theology (it could have been completed at 100%:science: and for a holy city :lol: ). Next turn we will run 100%:science: in order to use the extra 20% research bonus to spill the overflow into gunpowder, which, without us knowing Guilds, is researched at a lesser rate than Theolgy.
This sounds like you think the old research overflow bug from early vanilla versions is still in place, or am I missing something in your reasoning? Overflow is always normalized to the research bonus for the new tech, so trying to maximize overflow is useless.

Kaz have a significant number of beakers into guilds, not putting too many beakers into gunpowder before we get guilds might be best?

This sounds like you think the old research overflow bug from early vanilla versions is still in place

I was talking this talk with Printing Press and was uncorrected but if this is the case there will be no more of that. Although I'm still gonna worldbuilder a situation to make sure - old habits die hard. And I'll wait til Guilds to go heavy into Gunpowder. I'd actually prefer a different tech than gunpowder to run 100%:gold: on. Up until now we've had only 2 beakers at 100%:gold: so a 20% bonus didn't matter, but now we'll be running 24 scientists, so the extra 20% will count for something. This turn I'm fine - finishing Theology - but after that it'd be better to placeholder something we'll actually research ourselves (Nationalism???), and thereby minimize the number of turns on techs of lesser prereqs.

Kaz have finished compass optics and guilds by now... We need to get the techs from them. It is a shame we didn't get compass and optics several turns ago...

As for what city will pop first, cities are executed in order so Cimera would pop before Paraiso, if you want paraiso to pop first you have to make sure paraiso doesn't pop.

We should likely have a small amount of cities building mounted units (knights and war elephants), these can maybe get stables (obviously stables everywhere is a waste)?

Also build missionaries in serpente/cimera (the only cities with monastaries) before units (basically extra barracks in other cities with theology)?

Since we now have optics and guilds, both gunpowder and astro is possible. I think we should get astro since kaz can do gunpowder in 3 (and then we get it the turn after so we can start on chem and bulb it).

Really bad that we didn't get optics before we switched out of slavery :'(. Why didn't you ask it from kaz earlier?

Oh yeah and assign some more specialists in ohlo maybe? It shouldn't pop first, but would be nice if it was ready to generate another one right after the last one from the other cities...

Some MM comment: I understand we want to produce several GPs in a row using the GA... but as we seem to only bulb once in astro, perhaps the set up can be changed: indeed, I think working mines in Ohlo when it just completed the NE is not productive. Those plain mines should be specialists and the city could perhaps be used otherwise than military ( missionaries?)... In the same fashion, Porto Cavalos is building a phant without stable, neither teo...
Also did you planned the GPP shreshold increase? Because we'll loose a scientists per turn now in Cimeira and the other city... (you prolly did but just in case)

edit: ok it works even with pop shrinking :goodjob:

Ohlo would outpace the other cities and pop first if it ran all scientists. It's a shame I know, under-utilizing the NE, but It will run full gp in two turns. I figured we want the GSs, and since ohlo has a mix of wonders, best to let it wait. The other cities had pretty nice breaks to hit their 300 & 400 GPP. Both were of the pattern where they'd produce
108GPP
108
99
90
81
etc
so if ohlo ran full gpp it would produce first and then cimeira would hit 400GPP fine but then paraiso would need two lost pop to get the next 100GPP (or maybe even ohlo would outpace it again) I do understand that we're in the GA so we want to use the GPP bonus as much as we can, so i will run the maximum GPP in ohlo up to the point the other cities pop first. That will look something like two gp next turn, and then all six the turn after.

And ohlo has no monastary, but there are only a half dozen cities that need buddhism. Serpente and cimeira can handle that ok, may have to rotate different units in the queue until the missionary comes, but for the most part i think were ok.

Any discussion on the 3rd GP coming from Ohlo? Since it's not part of the bulb sequence, do we even need a GS? I've been thinking, maybe we want a merchant to run a trade mission. I'm assuming we'll go along a non-gs route after steel (banking>RP>Rifling?) Or do we need to stockpile GS for the Smethod, Phys, etc.? It kinda feels like we could get those later and a GM would be of more use now.

Thanks for the precisions on specialists...
Do you plan to switch in teo so you don't produce 3 xp units though? I guess yes :) (otherwise my point for the stable is still up!)

I like the trade mission idea, it's true that we have some time to generate GS after that, and they will be still cheap with the low number of GPs produced...
We can't make another GA soon, so GM seems the best option :goodjob:

Yes, switch to theo on last turn of GA.

I like the GM option. But if we go heavy into the GS bulbs (phys, etc. We may want alot of GS and they sort of are getting farther and farther apart. (I also suspect that sancta may go nuts with the GS bulbs up in the tech tree, Phys, elec)

After GA ohlo will be 81gpp/turn and we'll need 600, 700, etc. It can be 90GPP w/ lighthouse
EDIT: uh, we'll be out of pacifism, so these numbers will be 54gpp/turn and 60.

I probably will set the 2 gp in ohlo to GM this turn if I don't hear anymore, but maybe others can chime in. (I'm just not sure if the plan is to GS our way through Smethod and beyond, and this may slow us down, although it's very possible to use the alliance to acquire all these GS, kaz is philo btw

Turns not done, timer's at 22:30 left from this post. What do you think of this?


http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0061.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0062.jpg
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0063.jpg
@0%science we were 428 GNP

I suppose I should have started on this (bothering to research Banking in time for the civic switch) last turn and not have to go through building research to make this happen. Come to think of it I should go look at the trade route screen to see how much we'd be losing. Merc would give only citizens in quite a few cities

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0065.jpg
So we have 18 cities, 12 of which have ability to run GP post caste, 3 of the remaining 6 will whip a forge relatively soon, the other 3 no time soon. . And 4-5 of original 12 cities can only run engineer or spy, 1 has to run spy. The rest are mostly scientist/engineer, and i think only cap can run merchants. Also 6:gold increase in maint. for merc

So I think all this added up is pretty close to equal in terms of per turn costs/benefits, however MS and Kaz may have significant anarchy costs, something like 250-300:science: each, so that's a significant cost for them (but not us).

We do currently have OB with Saturn, but there beginning to become a little bit of a nuisance, they just ran a chariot all the way from this border to dutchwarmblood, and now they seem to be doing it again. (each new one will clearly witness more and more troop as we build them up)
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0066.jpg
Off-but-on-topic, each time I look at this alleyway, it makes me think these cities would be the easiest to attack. I realize we would have to place the bulk of our army against sancta but then if we were to send a razing ship out, Saturns capitol would probably be the easiest (not on hill, hills nearby) as oppose to Sancta's cities (pretty much all on hills, Inner sanctum on a hill and no hills nearby)
Saturn also popped jade this turn so another city up there we cant see
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0067.jpg



Anyway, I think my decision would be to not bother with the switch to Merc right now and just work on getting the most hammers into this rifleman/cannon war, drafting/whipping ourselves to bits doing so.

Also what would produce this affect in the Mfg? http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm33/slaze_bucket/Civ4ScreenShot0064.jpg

Also what would produce this affect in the Mfg?
Moving the capital to a hammer-poor(er) site? Haven't looked so I wouldn't know. :)

That is the end of their golden age obviously. Also we are nowhere near rifles, it'll be mostly knights and elephants etc no?

Rifles a bit off, but steel in maybe 8-11 turns. They are making a unit a turn with their high :hammers: HE, so each ticking turn makes us stand up to that. But looking at it We probably declare with Frigates (which is still a good number of turns off (7-12).

The Army's still a ways off. I see a good number of turns for build up. We'll start whipping immediately in the new farm cities (Zhou basin and elsewhere) but to take cities, which is the point, we'll need cannon. War can definately be started before then, but it doesn't have to be - i'm still guessing frigates. They are matching our power increases it seem but are still in caste. Most of our cities are whip-adverse. They will use hammers first and only join the heavy whipping in the end. I am considering joining kaz on the grassland square i showed in last overview shot (something like 4S of TKY) but only after the hills are pillaged of course.

Yes to begin it will be many mideval troops (muskets, pikes, eles, cata, longbow) But there is a decent wndow in between rifles and infantry/MG. i see us crashing our economy at rifling (kaz anyway), not neccesarily beginning from that.

nobody has any troops (aside from the buildup that's to come). MS has no interest in war (they refused a gifted theology, and from both us AND kaz I believe), and kaz only continue to frustrate me by the day. They were saying to MS that they got it how one of them can get the navigation bonus if they do it this way, when, the reality is they haven't sent the boat out, MS did, and turns ago sancta had optics. Everyone sent workboat to round the continent, we all have the same map.

We need HE bad. I want vinheda. Or Ohlo. But our best chance is to beat them with riflemen. Lets see if we cant get 10exp troops with our IMP trait. Disposable 10exp troops as we tredge cannon toward Infantry capped cities (3 Inf, 12 rifles or whatever).

But that Artist is only good for another GA. so that creeps in to our plans.

We need HE bad. I want vinheda. Or Ohlo.

Vinheda is short on food and Ohlo hhas the NE. Not the best combo though it's definately our best coastal city.
I suggest Porto Cavalo for a coastal site, but I think we'll waste hammers doing it. Yaoi seems the best city to me, with mostly grass lands, 2 fps, and 15 riverside tiles. Could workshop /watermill the hell of it for crazy output. We are not Sancta so our water tiles are useless.

But, whatever city we choose, not starting it is a huge waste in term of hammer indeed! :)

yeah, vinheda'ss not the greatest. I said once back in the day that ohlo should get HE + NE and sorta meant it, but that's kind of a crackpot idea as well. porta cavalo (i'm assuming that's the horse/fur city) has the same food problems as well. I don't know that it absolutely needs to be coastal. And with that I think the easternmost city, near TKY, might be a good idea, food, hills & location.

All in all, this game looks like we really have our work cut out for ourselves. sancta gnp is solid. Even if we go nuts on the coastal blockading they'll just need to put in a concentrated effort towards destroyers and that'll be that.

Yaoi and Porta Nina is what it comes down to for HE and I agree, it should go In Yaoi.

Both are pretty similar with #'s, PN has the better food surplus at food specials only (sheep, spice & fp) +10 to +8, but Yaoi has a few more grassland tiles. Ohlo get's its next GP in 16 turns, and no matter what it is, we gotta set off another GA and end up back in caste for the workshop bonus. Maybe we can try and get it so that we make it to Communism to get to 2:food:4:hammers: workshops (2:food:5:hammers: in GA). We have the 2 cities at saturn's border and the zhou,yaoi+PN that are ready for riverside workshop spam (they wouldn't mind levies either).

Thanks for the PM ras.

Technically the HE isn't started, but we have found our city, Yaoi. Right now it has a barracks but no forge. Next time I'm in game I'll do the calcs for how it should all work out (anyone is welcome to log in a do this too) but I'm thinking we whip a forge first no? Right now, it is working all farms, so 1 hammer/turn isn't really gonna contribute much if we start right now. The thing to do is to worker prep it. It can get up to +8:food: on its four food specials (2 grass spice and 2 farmed fp) so it will really come into it's own at like pop 12 working 8 workshops. I'm thinking it'll grow to 8, whip the forge and then work on HE, maybe slipping in a unit whip or two for overflow hammers. Next turn it'll be pop 6 w/ +10:food: (I've built the farms in between it and PN to share, most of the workshops have yet to be built on the rivergrass to the SW of yaoi outside of PN's BFC). So i think the pace of the HE is really at how fast we can grow, not so much if we start it right away.

I'm thinking it'll grow to 8, whip the forge and then work on HE, maybe slipping in a unit whip or two for overflow hammers.

I agree on whiping the forge, then not sure of building the HE on hammer overflow... Doing it on workshops might be better as it let the city grow for maximum output asa the wonder is done. I'll try to propose something regarding the improvements around the city (will work with at least 8 workshops to match your idea). Built from whip overflows or on workshops, I agree growth rate is what determine how fast we can get the HE up...

Another city which has some potential for prod is Rio, which is currently underdevelopped. What kind of improvements do you see around it? I don't think cottages are worth it now (we discussed of that for another city, but I don't know if you saw the discussion) as we are close to RP now and watermills/workshops are far better.

Cheers

After the whip it'll be back to full growth, but any overflow will go into HE. There won't be any whip/overflow tricks after that - we just don't have the time, and our slavery window is limited (26 turns more max). So any production will go to HE. At first it'll be at 4 pop and full growth, but will start to fill out into workshops at pop 7 or 8 (has six growth tiles, considering one more for it and porta nina to share.

Rio, and all cities like it, are on farms now but workshops later. The caste bonus beats watermills. workshops and windmills and farms.

After the whip it'll be back to full growth, but any overflow will go into HE. There won't be any whip/overflow tricks after that - we just don't have the time, and our slavery window is limited (26 turns more max). So any production will go to HE. At first it'll be at 4 pop and full growth, but will start to fill out into workshops at pop 7 or 8 (has six growth tiles, considering one more for it and porta nina to share.

Rio, and all cities like it, are on farms now but workshops later. The caste bonus beats watermills. workshops and windmills and farms.

All good sir! watermills are better after RP but should replace farms as the topology of the river allows after communism :)

How I would love to get Communism and push as far as to capture Dragon Tears only to put the capitol there and steal tech going full EE. Right now we're totally dependent on our allies for tech; I think we just got up into positive at 40% slider.

Saturn's crippling themselves with their musket drafts (which also just became useless against our gunpowder). Crippling Saturn could be just as detrimental to sancta's long term gains and certainly alot easier. Communism makes all that land lovely.

But we still gotta go after sancta (hmm)

Serpente: Switching a grass hill to the plain farm slows down the bank by one turn while double the growth rate (18 -> 9). Size 19, the city can work all its valuable tile (all but that plain farm)... That's open! :)

Where do we drop IW (crap I forgot to check for Oxford)?
I am thinking Ohlo and Porto Estrella make for good canditates... the later needs heavy garison though being on Saturn border.

Are the three workers near SANCTA borders safe? Do we know if they have a mobility unit?

Cheers

IW I don't know. Those two would work ok, although not too amazing. Oxford has to goo in serente although we don't have a single uni other than serpente's.

Yes I think they're safe. I moved a knight from the cannon stack NE and back, all he saw was a worker 2NE. Intel put the woodsman II axe on the pig. I should probably get out of there though

Cool thing about the workers... I logged in and was wondering... :)
About Oxford, it was just a reminder, I guess we can whip unis in cities with unhappiness due to war... but that's clearly not the priority.

@Slaze: What cities will we gain from the war? If I understand it right, they won't be culturally connected with the rest of our empire? Or is the plan to switch on Saturn asa Sancta is out of the game?

Happy new year to the remaining cavaleiros :)

Ras

My internet was down a few days ago then I went to the inlaws for new years and Now I'm back.

In the mean time I've just learned a few things that certainly shook this game up a bit. And I missed a turn, but I suppose we can petition to get that back.

although I don't think that's neccesary, I think It's finally over, or at least I won't accept these conditions. sancta gifted all their cities to kaz, so they have no reason to do anything but fight us. ALL THEIR CITIES! I think this is a total mockery of the game.

Thanks for keeping up the game this long with no help, slaze. I've enjoyed reading all you've written, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to help any (truth is, I hardly ever touch civ anymore).

sancta gifted all their cities to kaz, so they have no reason to do anything but fight us. ALL THEIR CITIES! I think this is a total mockery of the game.

I kinda agree... I wonder what Kaz could have done against Sancta without us... oh well :rolleyes:
I want to back up Winston with what he said Slaze... I kept on reading your reports and appreciated your great effort to keep this alive :goodjob:

Su around Cavaleiros.
Ras

I just want to say to you all that I enjoyed playing with you while I still had the time and motivation; it was the other teams I had issues with, particularly the general attitude amongst nearly all teams that condoned rule-twisting of a sort I'm not comfortable with, and which ultimately culminated in what it seems never will be universally accepted as blatant cheating. The city gifting is just the cherry on top, isn't it?

Thanks for holding out for us as long as you did, Slaze, and for doing it so well.

Let me add my voice to the choir. Slaze, you did a tremendous job. This game deserved a better fate, but the attitude of some players on other teams totally killed my own enthusiasm.

Thanks for the support all. I played it with emotion, and emotions got too high. It would have been interesting if it kept going but nobody likes losing. So, as in SP, we exit to main menu. Maybe someday one of these will be a success.

Thanks again and see you around Cav.

although I don't think that's neccesary, I think It's finally over, or at least I won't accept these conditions. sancta gifted all their cities to kaz, so they have no reason to do anything but fight us. ALL THEIR CITIES! I think this is a total mockery of the game.Btw we may have been given all the cities but that doesn't mean we can't then gift some on to you. My understanding of our alliance all along was that once SANCTA was defeated we would either divide up the land equally or split into a 2v1 with MS taking the side of the team with fewer cities.

I just want to say to you all that I enjoyed playing with you while I still had the time and motivation; it was the other teams I had issues with, particularly the general attitude amongst nearly all teams that condoned rule-twisting of a sort I'm not comfortable with, and which ultimately culminated in what it seems never will be universally accepted as blatant cheating. The city gifting is just the cherry on top, isn't it?

Thanks for holding out for us as long as you did, Slaze, and for doing it so well.

Actually, I know I probably bowed out before many of you - didn't really have time for playing the civ game in the fall semester. Sorry to hear things took a turn for the worse with regards to enjoyability, but yeah, great you kept things up slaze - I'll just be looking over archives for kicks now.

Also, I told you guys no good would ever come from this Kaz alliance, didn't I always told ya :old: