Hallo Sandris
Here are the first block for your add new greek units.

Hellenic Armys:
Take a look at this for macedonian army:
http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_makedonia_units.html
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/images/Hoplite4thcentury.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/1.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/2.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/3.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/4.jpg

The Ptolemaic Army:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/5.jpg
The Tarentine cavalry you can produce with 2 shieldtypes (this one and the celtic ripped shield) and 3 helmet types (spartan Pilos / thrako-phrygian / attic )http://www.royalathena.com/pages/HelmetsWeapons.html
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/16.jpgTarentine cavalry with different helmet types from the new osprey Nov 08 !
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/12.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/13.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/14.jpg

The Seleucid Army 168-145 BC:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/6.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/7.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/8.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/9.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/10.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-12/1329260/11.jpg

H.Balck

Nice pictures... but this should be in the main C&C forum.

Never mind - Curse you, Vista!

- Anyway, like TG said, wrong forum.

BTW, does anyone know why an animated .gif won't show as uploaded or play?

Another nice insiration from TW:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=150373
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=176304
or the very good pictures from Johnny Shumate's:
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_shumates_portfolio/images/94546/304x425.aspx&imgrefurl=http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_shumates_portfolio/picture94546.aspx&usg=__2d1hATQ94dZ12U_Cha4RFaOy1Os=&h=425&w=304&sz=21&hl=de&start=4&um=1&tbnid=r_nA_AbXs5XbRM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpydna%2Bbattle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26s a%3DN

H.Balck

PS: Your units can fight for Rome in Cannae in an new game !
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3425/58379421eb0.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58379421eb0.jpg)

I have a feeling he may already have stacks sent to him but this was sitting around from a project so,

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=196040&d=1228254255

Yang Liu... But do You know that good part of Your researches is exist NOW? :lol::lol::lol:

Look Sandris' library.

Wrong forum, please ask a mod to move it to the main C&C forum. BTW I wonder if this guy Yang Liu listens to anyone here...:hmm:

Byzantine Armies:

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/6715bb676b97.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/103e36c76707.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/3b45d0c6fc44.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/897bdfb014a6.jpg

More Byzantine units, their enemies and mercenaries:

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/77f4cad64bde.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/22c8adfe03a4.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/28bf915d6b76.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/9d54290f39ad.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/fcd31ab289bc.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/70748a6b3ea4.jpg

http://k.foto.radikal.ru/0702/94b6c42c074f.jpg

I was under the impression that cataphracts were armed with bows as well? :hmm:

The Persian ones, Oz.

The Persian ones, Oz.

Ah. Gracias, Ares.

Handy that Sandris can read Russian, no? Cuz I have trouble figuring out what some of those Byzantine units are supposed to be exactly, other than dates! :)

The last image reads: "byzantinskiy soldati". ;)

PS: Your units can fight for Rome in Cannae in an new game !

Yang Liu, do you know what game that is?

The problem with 'Greek' armies is that they can cover a large time period and a massive expanse of territory. Generally we have the Mycenaean period (bronze age, time of Agamemnon and Achilles), then a dark age followed by the Classical period (time of hoplites, the Persian wars, Spartan, then Athenian, then Theban hegemony), then the Greeks are conquered by the Macedonians, Alexander spreads them to the edge of India and his Empire splits into Successor States on his death. There are a number of RTW mods that have researched the Sucessor State armies, so take a look at them for the 300 BCE-Roman period:
From the Extended Greek Mod (http://www.wmwiki.com/hosted/xgm/xgmreadme.html#units).
From Europa Barbarorum: Macedonia (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_makedonia_units.html), Seleukeia (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_arche-seleukeia_units.html), Bactria (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_baktria_units.html), Epirus (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_epeiros_units.html), Greece (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_koinon-hellenon_units.html), Pontus, (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_pontos_units.html) Ptolomaics (http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_ptolemaioi_units.html).

I second Yang Liu's suggestion that you take a look at some of Johnny Shurnate's art. Some very useful stuff there. I have a feeling that a simple google images search may have been involved in both Yang Liu's and my seaches. ;)

For the Alexandrian period you can do worse than getting some stills from the Oliver Stone movie. Whether you like the movie or not, he did try to get the equipment etc. right, and he had a number of good scholars working with him to make sure it was all authentic.

For the Classical period you've got most of the material you would need above. The main differences between the various city state's equipment would be in the helmets and shield designs. The Spartan ceremonial helms you have already done on your Spartan units, though in battle they would usually use the plain Pilos Helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilos). The Thracian Helm (http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/products/M000015.jpg) (used by Thracians and various mercenary units) I think you have used on your existing Thracian Mercenary Peltast unit. The Corinthian helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_Helm) was used through most of the Peloponese I believe. The Phrygian helm you have rightly used on your existing Macedonian units, and would also be used by many of the Ionian Greeks. The Chalcidean helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcidian_helmet) was quite widely used even into the Roman period, and the Attic helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_helmet) was common in the Classical period (especially in Athens and the states of the Delian league). The shield designs I don't know a huge amount about, but some of the city states are covered in the various RTW mods, especially the Extended Greek Mod.

For the Mycenaean period make sure weapons are bronze rather than iron. Make sure there are no cavalry units - chariots are OK for this period, but not horse riding. Large greaves covering the legs up to the knees, a Bronze or leather cuirass covering the chest and an armoured skirt make up the armour. A javelin/spear/short sword and shield combo would make up the traditional arms. Apparently they practiced archery with short bows too. Shields were apparently like the one that Virote used here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282256).

EDIT - Just found some shield designs here (http://telias.free.fr/models_3ds_menu4.html).

For the Mycenaean period make sure weapons are bronze rather than iron. Make sure there are no cavalry units - chariots are OK for this period, but not horse riding. Large greaves covering the legs up to the knees, a Bronze or leather cuirass covering the chest and an armoured skirt make up the armour. A javelin/spear/short sword and shield combo would make up the traditional arms. Apparently they practiced archery with short bows too. Shields were apparently like the one that Virote used here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282256).

EDIT - Just found some shield designs here (http://telias.free.fr/models_3ds_menu4.html).I own the Osprey book on the Myceneans -- let me know if you need some scans.

Does anyone still know Kryten's Hoplites (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=37256)? It would be great to have sandris-style replacements for them! :)

I remember Kryten's hoplites well, and still use them on occation. They demonstrate the main differences of the classical period - the helms and the shields. To be honest there were dozens of Greek city states, each with their own equipment, so I'm sure Sandris can't do all of them. The main ones to do (if possible) would be Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes and one to represent the Ionian cities. Kryten's units could be a useful source for Sandris.

I remember Kryten's hoplites well, and still use them on occation. They demonstrate the main differences of the classical period - the helms and the shields. To be honest there were dozens of Greek city states, each with their own equipment, so I'm sure Sandris can't do all of them. The main ones to do (if possible) would be Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes and one to represent the Ionian cities. Kryten's units could be a useful source for Sandris.

I will make only main miltary units for each era (5-7 types). Maybe later unitlines could be expanded.

I will make only main miltary units for each era (5-7 types). Maybe later unitlines could be expanded.

"Only"

:D

I still use the odd Kryten hoplite, although slowly they're getting replaced -- and I imagine they'll all get replaced in this next pack! We've already got a Sandrisian Spartiate (several, actually), and distinguishing between a "Citizen" Hoplite, "Allied" Hoplite, "Mercenary" Hoplite & "Subjugated" Hoplite won't be a big deal in terms of nationalities -- shield designs aren't an issue here. It's only the Theban hoplite & Sacred Band that have that issue.

What I really appreciate about Kryten's units is his insistence that the Greeks were primarily spearmen, not swordsmen. I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman." Rather, I think it would make more sense to have a Hoplite who has uses his sword as a secondary attack animation after his spear shatters. That, and the spear attack animation should be overhand, not underhand, as that would permit the phalanx formation to better hold together as a shield wall. (I think Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire advocated the overhand thrust, though not exactly a scholarly source; another non-scholarly source, Nikolas Lloyd (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/weapons/spear.html) disagrees, but I'm unconvinced by his arguments -- he does, however, agree with the lack of 'swordsmen' in classical Greece; he claims that there is no word for "swordsman" in ancient Greek!) A sword armed Hypapsist might be a nice option, though, even though it's unclear if Hypapsists were swordsmen.The Spartan ceremonial helms you have already done on your Spartan units, though in battle they would usually use the plain Pilos Helm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilos).Sandris' later Spartans (he erroneously calls 'em "early") already used the pilos helmet, so we're covered here:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Acidophilus-Bifidus/Civ/SPlarge.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Acidophilus-Bifidus/Civ/SH_large.jpg

I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman."

BTW, I already made several swordsmen, just because I needed them for my scenarios. If anybody won`t be using them, it`s up to them.

BTW, I already made several swordsmen, just because I needed them for my scenarios. If anybody won`t be using them, it`s up to them.

Bravo. The ancient Greeks were primarily spearmen due to the nature of the terrain they fought over: typically narrow passes where a hoplite formation could not be outflanked (hence the importance of the "push of spears" when hoplite formations came into combat contact). (Also, by the time Alexander the Great was pushing eastwards, he had cavalry to cover his flanks.)

If, however, one is playing on a non-historical map, Greek swordsmen are only reasonable. Also, a less dramatic push out of Greece going, say, westward, would have put the Greeks squarely in contact with ancient Rome, and the legions would have undoubtedly provided some lessons to emulate.

Best,

Oz

I`m that unreasonable person.

:) Fine with me! But a spearman with a secondary sword attack after the spear shatters would be pretty damn cool. ;)

I`m that unreasonable person.

I don't know which post you're refering to but I was agreeing with you :goodjob:

BTW, let's not all forget who's making these wonderful toys for us to play with :nono:

:D ,

Oz

You see what you did, Mithadan? You see his avatar and title now? Empty, man.. empty. No Greeks :(

For crying out loud, make requests people, don`t try to stop creativity!

I will make only main miltary units for each era (5-7 types). Maybe later unitlines could be expanded.
As Ares said: 'only?'. ;)

What I really appreciate about Kryten's units is his insistence that the Greeks were primarily spearmen, not swordsmen. I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman." Rather, I think it would make more sense to have a Hoplite who has uses his sword as a secondary attack animation after his spear shatters. That, and the spear attack animation should be overhand, not underhand, as that would permit the phalanx formation to better hold together as a shield wall. (I think Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire advocated the overhand thrust, though not exactly a scholarly source; another non-scholarly source, Nikolas Lloyd (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/weapons/spear.html) disagrees, but I'm unconvinced by his arguments -- he does, however, agree with the lack of 'swordsmen' in classical Greece; he claims that there is no word for "swordsman" in ancient Greek!) A sword armed Hypapsist might be a nice option, though, even though it's unclear if Hypapsists were swordsmen.Sandris' later Spartans (he erroneously calls 'em "early") already used the pilos helmet, so we're covered here:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Acidophilus-Bifidus/Civ/SPlarge.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b29/Acidophilus-Bifidus/Civ/SH_large.jpg
Yeah, that's the pilos, well spotted. I don't really think that we need any more Spartan varieties personally, though I know that anything that Sandris releases will be well received. To be honest I thought that Romans had been overdone over the years, and yet when that pack was released I was still very happy. :)

But a spearman with a secondary sword attack after the spear shatters would be pretty damn cool. ;)
I agree. I requested one of these in Utah's last lottery, and likely will do again if he does another lottery. With all the controversy about Hypaspist weapon choice it would seem to be the best way to represent them. To be honest, I think the best way to think of the armament of Hypaspists is 'flexible'. It's not that easy to represent in a civ unit, but there you go.

By the way - is Utah still around? I don't recall seeing many posts from him recently.

BTW, I already made several swordsmen, just because I needed them for my scenarios. If anybody won`t be using them, it`s up to them.
There's nothing really wrong with Greek swordsmen, though their weapon of choice was generally the spear. Swords were also not that practical in the bronze age, as bronze is brittle and the swords made from it would break on impact rather too often. By the iron age this was not so much of an issue, but by then the Greek military tradition was well established around use of spears. They would use swords on occasion, especially when the battle line broke up - a sword tends to be more handy and versatile then.

Bravo. The ancient Greeks were primarily spearmen due to the nature of the terrain they fought over: typically narrow passes where a hoplite formation could not be outflanked (hence the importance of the "push of spears" when hoplite formations came into combat contact). (Also, by the time Alexander the Great was pushing eastwards, he had cavalry to cover his flanks.)

If, however, one is playing on a non-historical map, Greek swordsmen are only reasonable. Also, a less dramatic push out of Greece going, say, westward, would have put the Greeks squarely in contact with ancient Rome, and the legions would have undoubtedly provided some lessons to emulate.
I hadn't thought of the Greek use of spears in terms of terrain use. Interesting.

I'll try not to get drawn in to a legion/phalanx discussion (as I have been through that too many times and it tends to bore other people). ;) But I disagree with you there - I believe that the Romans were comparatively vulnerable to Greek tactics up to around 200 BCE then after Pyrrhus had handed them their asses several times they started organising their manpower a little better. They were still rather vulnerable until the Marius reforms IMHO. The only reason Pyrrhus was unable to capitalise on his victories was lack of manpower to replenish losses - caused by his inability to retain harmony in Epirus and Macedon. Anyway, Alexander vs. Rome will always be one of the great unanswered questions.

Back on topic - Sandris - The number one thing I would love to see is an overhand spear thrust. I believe that you've got that sorted in your cavalry units already. I guess the overhand animation you use for your javelin units could be adapted for an overhand spear attack - you'd just need to reduce the body bend so they don't lean forward so much, and keep the spear parented to the hand rather than flying off. Obviously the later phalangites wielded their pikes with two hands (and underarm).

You see what you did, Mithadan? You see his avatar and title now? Empty, man.. empty. No Greeks :(

For crying out loud, make requests people, don`t try to stop creativity!What? Did I offend him?!? I had no idea my post was taken that way; it certainly wasn't intended to be snarky. I was making a request: a request for no Greek swordsmen, but rather a combo spear-first, sword-later attack animation for hoplites.

Sandris, do forgive me if what I said caused you consternation! I didn't mean anything harsh but what I said, I was just making a suggestion; as always, you can just ignore what I (we) say. You're the artist, after all, we're the unwashed plebs!By the way - is Utah still around? I don't recall seeing many posts from him recently.Yeah, I believe he still lurks about and makes the occasional unit. I've never had any trouble reaching him by PM.

It`s OK. I won`t post my made swordsmen. :)

It`s OK. I won`t post my made swordsmen. :)

... I know it might not apply in your case, but our Constitution prohibits "cruel & unusual punishment" ... ;)

Best,

Oz

It`s OK. I won`t post my made swordsmen. :)

My two cents: Keep the swordsmen, particularly for the Bronze Age.

I would however, support the idea of giving Hoplites an AttackC animation based on swords.

My two cents: Keep the swordsmen, particularly for the Bronze Age.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

They're made, and they might very well have other uses as well.

:please: ,

Oz

Post 'em! :p

And yeah, the Myceneans for sure should have a swordsman -- for those half naked guys that would climb over the big shield of the heavy spearmen and stab the guys in the neck or whatever.

This is pure evil. :(

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199365&d=1231258766

This is pure evil. :(

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199365&d=1231258766

Good spot. :D
I think that Sandris is just joking around with Mithadan. I sure hope Sandris is only joking around with Mithadan anyway!

For all your sakes (and mine, if you all lynch me), I hope so too!

Now see, this is exactly what I am talking about. We have kinda sorta gone from being excited and surprised to simply having expectations of Sandris and all of our other prolific unit creators.

I think we sometimes forget that he actually MIGHT want to play the game once in awhile after creating over 500+ units!

Im gonna say it again. Be still! Be happy with what you already have. Like Stormrage said up there, be respectful, suggest a new unit, and be helpful in the design phase but do NOT stifle creativity. :)

I am really looking forward to the byzantine units :D

Now see, this is exactly what I am talking about. We have kinda sorta gone from being excited and surprised to simply having expectations of Sandris and all of our other prolific unit creators.

I think we sometimes forget that he actually MIGHT want to play the game once in awhile after creating over 500+ units!

Im gonna say it again. Be still! Be happy with what you already have. Like Stormrage said up there, be respectful, suggest a new unit, and be helpful in the design phase but do NOT stifle creativity. :)


Amen (which is simply Hebrew for, "So be it"),

Oz