There are a few ways one can go about running an espionage economy (EE). Generating GSpies and infiltrating. Settling GSpies and using another one for Scotland Yard in this city. Teching to techs that unlock spy specialist buildings and running a bunch of spies in one or more cities.

I usually almost completely ignore espionage. I generally don't find it to be particularly useful/necessary. I play monarch/normal/big and small and right now am playing with random leaders. If the game goes well I normally have a tech lead by the renaissance and give up the game shortly thereafter once I know the game is winnable.

However, after reading a bit about running an EE here I thought I would try a game where I devoted considerable attention to it. Here is how it went...

I picked Liz and started out with a nice high-food coastal city. I put moai and oxford here. I also built the GW and focused exclusively on generating GSpies. The only other civ on my continent was Korea. I was able to box him in pretty good and was able to build about 15 cities peacefully and am now in the process of settling islands. I could probably tech peacefully for the win or else go for domination using redcoats, etc.

The interesting thing about this game was that I used the first 4 GSpies for scotland yards in my first 4 cities all of which were primarily commerce cities. After alphabet/currency I shut off science and turned up espionage and directed it all at Korea and stole techs until we were at parity (and then whenever he teched something I didn't have). After that, I used galleys to ferry spies to Russia where I stole techs until I was at parity and after she teched a few techs I didn't have.

From there I turned science back up because the AI was teching too slowly. I reached liberalism first taking economics for the GM as I could see that Russia was teching nationalism, which I stole.

The really interesting thing about this game is now that my first four cities' cottages have really matured whenever I shut down science and crank up espionage I have A LOT, A LOT of espionage points. Although this allows me to steal pretty much any tech I want, I am also thinking that once I have redcoats and spies and nationhood I will be able to seriously overrun anyone since I will easily have enough espionage points to drop the defenses of every city in their empire and then let redcoats do the rest. If necessary, I can also send my army of spies to do any of their other abilities, such as destroying terrain improvements of military resources, etc. etc.

Basically, I was surprised to find myself swimming in espionage points whenever I crank up the slider. Whoever I focus this on becomes easy prey and I can definitely see it as a powerful weapon.

Is it necessary? No, I think I could win this particular game without ever touching espionage. However, I definitely think it is useful, quite helpful for warmongering while being able to stay at tech parity, and has a nice synergy with the nationhood civic...

So cottages, once mature, are basically able to do almost anything but make troops thanks to the sliders. Culture victory? Cottages please. Espionage? Apparantly cottages again.

You are playing on a difficulty where you can't lose. Why is it a surprise to you that EE doesn't seem appealing? EE is for stealing the techs the AI have that you don't. Thats not going to happen if the AI techs so slow it is not funny...

So cottages, once mature, are basically able to do almost anything but make troops thanks to the sliders. Culture victory? Cottages please. Espionage? Apparantly cottages again.That's true, but the problem with cottages is that whatever the city uses them for, the whole empire uses them for that. So you either have to use specialists for some parts of your economy (like wealth,espionage, culture), or have every city produce it, so every city needs to make structures for the multipliers.

Basically, cottages would be perfect if you've got academies, banks, security bureaus, cathedrals etc. in every city, but you've probably not got that.

diplomacy and espionage meet in a harmonious union of killing the other civilizations utilizing Spain and building this civilization's preferred wonders, "The Great Wall" and the "Kremlin" and their unique building the Citidal.

I agree with your post mostly futurehermit. In the game I was just playing I went for an EE of sorts. I focused on getting as many spy specialists in the GP farm as possible. I picked up an early scientist to make an academy in my 2nd city which would in the future become Oxford city (and my capital eventually as well). The one engineer I got I was able to use to pick up Kremlin the turn I got Communism.

The problem I had I think was that it seemd to take forever to get to the techs Constitution, Democracy and Communism. Before those techs I was actually trying hard not to get any GP points, which seemed a bit unnatural.

The problem was I missed GW by a few turns so I had to beeline CoL.

I abandoned that game when I found a game-breaking bug, and after I realised the bug's effect early on gave me a huge advantage which effectively made the EE heaps better than it already is.

But I noticed that after you have the espionage buildings you don't really need much science anymore. I was playing Monarch but I reckon the following would work for Emperor too.

I'm thinking one should aim for getting as many scotland yards like in your description. A 100% bonus to esp is huge and allows you to rely heavily on the slider on espionage. Considering it takes a long time and a lot of hammers to get beaker or gold multiplying buildings up to 100%, it makes a lot of sense to try and get a large number of great spies as early as possible for these scotland yards.

With these yards set up, you'd want a super science city for when you really need to research a tech you won't be able to steal for a while (beelining communism etc.)

To top it off it would be perfect to capture or make your own holy city for the money matters. Your science city would be the GP farm. With all this in mind, you minimise the number of libraries and markets etc. you need to build. However eventually you'll probably need to build all the gold multiplier buildings in your commerce cities anyway.

To earn more money, just spread the religion. Eventually go for a corp or two if you were unlucky enough to pick up a useless GP like an artist or merchant. Without a shrine, you'd probably need to build more banks across the entire empire and keep the slider a bit more on gold.

With the Nationhood civic, barracks are great, and you can put to great use the draft option. Drafting doesn't work so well when your econ is based on cottages, but if you get a high food Globe Theatre city it's great when you reach riflemen. Especially on large maps where you get to draft in about 5 cities per turn, it can seem like a waste if you're only really using the one city to draft, but I think the bonus to espionage, the +2:) from barracks and the zero upkeep make it a good civic even without the draft. In other words, Nationhood is nearly essential.

If playing a spiritual civ, then switching between organised religion and theocracy is essential if you have a religion. If you have a few military cities, get them all to build military at the same time while theocracy is on, and go back to OR when they pause for buildings etc. This civic choice and most other civic choices are just like a standard CE game I guess. Nationhood is the main one to make the most use of.

Any great scientists earned should be used in the super science city - academy then settled.

I know that was a bit all over the place but I think you'll understand what I was trying to say.

diplomacy and espionage meet in a harmonious union of killing the other civilizations utilizing Spain and building this civilization's preferred wonders, "The Great Wall" and the "Kremlin" and their unique building the Citidal.

Yes, spam Citadels everywhere. While you're at it beeline Nationalism and run Nationhood for the espionage bonus, and the Taj Mahal wouldn't hurt at that point either.

futurehermit,

Next time try peacefully settling only 5 cities, and kick it up to Emperor, then see if you can keep tech parity. Chances are you won't be able to do this. This is where diplomacy (good trading) and the EE really come in handy.

Yes, I can see how EE would become more effective as the difficulty level ramps up, that's for sure.

My observation in this post was simply how many espionage points you can generate if you focus on it and how it becomes a big stick you can wield if you choose to do so. I just wish there was a bit more in the way of useful things you could do with espionage, but I think I will devote more attention to it in the future.

I could probably play comfortably on Emperor with decent leaders, but I enjoy a more relaxed game where a) I will win most of the time; and b) I don't have to think so hard :lol: I play later at night when I am tired, so I like a more relaxed pace.

When you have the game locked up at 2K BC every time i don't really see the appeal... But each to his own i guess(i don't think you would have any problems at emperor either). EE is best when you playing on a higher difficulty overexpand massivly and fall behind a lot in tech. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260902 here is an example.

Basically, cottages would be perfect if you've got academies, banks, security bureaus, cathedrals etc. in every city, but you've probably not got that.

Mature cottages are so good that you don't really need multiplier buildings.

Of course you should get as many multipliers as you can, but don't sacrifice cottages to do it.

Of course if you really like playing with spies, there's a mod called Super Spies (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=300992) which gives your spies promotions. Still using your science slider to keep tech parity helps. Using spies to reek havoc in civs cities health,happy,buildings,etc.. is a lot of fun too. Having the amount of EPs you said, hitting the capitol with a couple health/happy hits could bring it down considerably:)

Mature cottages are so good that you don't really need multiplier buildings.

Of course you should get as many multipliers as you can, but don't sacrifice cottages to do it.

I request "DaveMCW's guide to the CE" in the strat articles forum! There's about 987603982476029384760923487 threads talking up SE and how to run it. I haven't seen a consistent, well-written guide to optimizing cities for cottages though. Hammer cities and GP farms will look the same, but a guide to properly selecting sites for cottages and how to balance them vs other options would be very welcome.

Well it isn't exactly complicated. :p

1. Found dozens of cities next to floodplains/riverside grasslands/rivery jungles/anything green.
2. Build cottages.
3. Use food to grow city and work cottages.
4. ???
5. Profit!

I mean aside from the obvious civics (universial suffrage, free speech, emancipation) there's really no way to optimise them other than "make more cottages!" :king:

Well it isn't exactly complicated. :p

1. Found dozens of cities next to floodplains/riverside grasslands/rivery jungles/anything green.
2. Build cottages.
3. Use food to grow city and work cottages.
4. ???
5. Profit!

I mean aside from the obvious civics (universial suffrage, free speech, emancipation) there's really no way to optimise them other than "make more cottages!" :king:

This is assumed but not known. I struggle to win on immortal, but do on occasion. Dave beat immortal with 8 cities.

Sometimes the land isn't always nice. Also, balancing working as many cottages as possible with actually having production to do something useful with your tech (aka securing enough cities if you're not blessed with enough from the start) and a GP farm to keep up in tech while they mature *ISN'T* a cakewalk. If this game was "cottage ftw" you'd see everyone playing and winning on immortal+ easily. That doesn't happen though.

Dave has a lot of rules of thumb he's posted here and there on the forums. IIRC things like "if it can work 10 cottages it's a commerce city", "it is always inefficient to whip away a grassland mine, and at pop 6 whipping a plains mine becomes inefficient", etc etc.

IMO it would serve players looking to learn how to truly run cottages on high difficulties quite well if we had a guide from one of the few players who advocates them strongly even at high levels. Where does his production come from? How does he keep up without a strong GP farm while cottages mature?

You can oversimplify SE too. Fundamentally, it's not harder to run specialists than it is to work cottages. Rather than cottages, you make farms, and then you either run specialists or whip as needed :rolleyes:. Just like "cottage everything", that sounds nice and simple, and it's completely useless. Things vary well beyond that. When/if you attack, where you settle cities, and what you choose to use them for is going to depend on how you want to distribute your balance of commerce vs GPP.

So before anybody poo poos such a guide, I'll emphasize again I'd MUCH rather see something on cottages rather than another standard "hey look it's an SE!".

When you have the game locked up at 2K BC every time i don't really see the appeal... But each to his own i guess(i don't think you would have any problems at emperor either). EE is best when you playing on a higher difficulty overexpand massivly and fall behind a lot in tech. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260902 here is an example.

Playing random leaders presents some interesting situations when the map isn't that great or when the map-to-lead fit isn't that great. I still find some games challenging. I prefer to try and find ways to win with all leaders and all situations on a difficulty level I can generally do well at than to beat a higher level with one of the strongest leaders. I also don't like the feeling of being so behind at the start of the game. That's the problem about playing vs. the AI though. You either give them massive bonuses such that they are not really playing the same game as you or else you go play some multiplayer, which is hard to do in this game.

This is assumed but not known. I struggle to win on immortal, but do on occasion. Dave beat immortal with 8 cities.

Sometimes the land isn't always nice. Also, balancing working as many cottages as possible with actually having production to do something useful with your tech (aka securing enough cities if you're not blessed with enough from the start) and a GP farm to keep up in tech while they mature *ISN'T* a cakewalk. If this game was "cottage ftw" you'd see everyone playing and winning on immortal+ easily. That doesn't happen though.

Dave has a lot of rules of thumb he's posted here and there on the forums. IIRC things like "if it can work 10 cottages it's a commerce city", "it is always inefficient to whip away a grassland mine, and at pop 6 whipping a plains mine becomes inefficient", etc etc.

IMO it would serve players looking to learn how to truly run cottages on high difficulties quite well if we had a guide from one of the few players who advocates them strongly even at high levels. Where does his production come from? How does he keep up without a strong GP farm while cottages mature?

You can oversimplify SE too. Fundamentally, it's not harder to run specialists than it is to work cottages. Rather than cottages, you make farms, and then you either run specialists or whip as needed :rolleyes:. Just like "cottage everything", that sounds nice and simple, and it's completely useless. Things vary well beyond that. When/if you attack, where you settle cities, and what you choose to use them for is going to depend on how you want to distribute your balance of commerce vs GPP.

So before anybody poo poos such a guide, I'll emphasize again I'd MUCH rather see something on cottages rather than another standard "hey look it's an SE!".

Too true. However I think the point is that for most players to get a fairly average CE going takes very little effort, whereas getting a fairly average SE going does take some effort. Running either the CE or SE efficiently and at high levels is going to take a similar amount of work.

So cottages, once mature, are basically able to do almost anything but make troops thanks to the sliders. Culture victory? Cottages please. Espionage? Apparantly cottages again.

Actually, no. If you are running US, you get the lone :hammers: from the town and you can use rushbuy to build troops. This is inefficient but possible. However, with modifiers mature cottages give out more net :hammers: than equivalent WS, farms, and mines. The biggee would be using the Kremlin, being FIN also helps, and all the buildings. Personally I like Elizabeth for this. She's FIN/Philo so you get a bonus :commerce:, you get some quick early GP which you can use for a Sci Method lib slingshot (which gives you an easy shot at communism), and the UB gives you more gold. As an alternative you can run EE and either just march in and take the Kremlin or steal communism and burn down any attempts to build it first by the AI (this allows you to get plenty of SYs early and generate huge :commerce: that can go towards espionage or production with ease). For many maps Elizabeth can generate more effective late game :hammers: than any other leader via rushbuy and US. The EE/Kremlin-rushbuy strat is extremely powerful, extremely flexible, and extremely lucrative (it is too fun to march in Modern armor you've rushbought on the front after having burnt the AI's oil for 20 turns)

EE has the best conversion rate of tiles : :science: in the game. If you really want to game it, found a religion (Mono, theo, and CoL are all possible shots at getting a religion), run it (much more dangerous), and rebuild your cap right next to a target city. You do sacrifice the ability to leverage monopoly techs, and have to use :hammers: on spies, but those can be worth the sacrifice. Honestly, the only reason I don't use EE more is the amount of really frigging annoying micro involved.

Actually, no. If you are running US, you get the lone :hammers: from the town and you can use rushbuy to build troops. This is inefficient but possible. However, with modifiers mature cottages give out more net :hammers: than equivalent WS, farms, and mines. The biggee would be using the Kremlin, being FIN also helps, and all the buildings. Personally I like Elizabeth for this. She's FIN/Philo so you get a bonus :commerce:, you get some quick early GP which you can use for a Sci Method lib slingshot (which gives you an easy shot at communism), and the UB gives you more gold. As an alternative you can run EE and either just march in and take the Kremlin or steal communism and burn down any attempts to build it first by the AI (this allows you to get plenty of SYs early and generate huge :commerce: that can go towards espionage or production with ease). For many maps Elizabeth can generate more effective late game :hammers: than any other leader via rushbuy and US. The EE/Kremlin-rushbuy strat is extremely powerful, extremely flexible, and extremely lucrative (it is too fun to march in Modern armor you've rushbought on the front after having burnt the AI's oil for 20 turns)

EE has the best conversion rate of tiles : :science: in the game. If you really want to game it, found a religion (Mono, theo, and CoL are all possible shots at getting a religion), run it (much more dangerous), and rebuild your cap right next to a target city. You do sacrifice the ability to leverage monopoly techs, and have to use :hammers: on spies, but those can be worth the sacrifice. Honestly, the only reason I don't use EE more is the amount of really frigging annoying micro involved.

I agree absolutely. I'm becoming more obsessed with the EE because of its strength and its increased utility at high difficulties. The micromanagement would drive you mad. Waiting five turns for the 50% discount is particularly bad. 'Twould be nice if there was a "sleep for 5 turns" order, or spies were forced to wake up whenever they reach the 50% discount whenever they're asleep. I'm sure one of these would be easy to mod in.

Where does his production come from? How does he keep up without a strong GP farm while cottages mature?


From his postings, Dave's strategy isn't limited to:

Cottages!

You must also include:

Catapults!

Well it isn't exactly complicated. :p

1. Found dozens of cities next to floodplains/riverside grasslands/rivery jungles/anything green.
2. Build cottages.
3. Use food to grow city and work cottages.
4. ???
5. Profit!

I mean aside from the obvious civics (universial suffrage, free speech, emancipation) there's really no way to optimise them other than "make more cottages!" :king:

Josh, I believe the mystery step 4 is "collect underpants" :lol: off topic but funny

From his postings, Dave's strategy isn't limited to:

Cottages!

You must also include:

Catapults!

I know he whips, say, 15 of them from his globe city to overflow into the globe, but come on :lol:. Still, that would be just the kind of thing that would be helpful in a guide from him.

I also know that Dave doesn't have any problem with having a gpfarm and strong production cities for his military needs.

One thing i'm falling short on is how you run got 4 GSpy early in the game, futurehermit. Only things I know off the top of my head that produces GSpy is the greatwall and courthouses (1 spy spealist) early on. Of course later in the tech tree you get a lot more but i'm just wondering? Do you run additional specialists like scientist and just hope the RNG gives you a great spy?

My view of espionage via the slider is that you are usually playing from a point of weakness. In this particular game I think it was utilized well as you had a stronge, peaceful techer near you. You also had the games best leader for this, philosphical to get the Gspies and financial to abuse the cottage cities. Nothing wrong with this, but just putting it in perspective, it is Liz.

I view espionage as a way to get a weaker techer (such as the warlords) to stay competitive until the vast amounts of acquired land adds up to a tech and commerce superiority. Hence I prefer to settle them and tech as I normally would. Less eps, but when directed towards a single AI, enough to steal what you want/need.

With that said, I like you idea of directing the slider to eps to steal what you need then swap back to research when techs are exhausted.

Some question/comments for discussion.

1) How long did it take to get those 4 GSpies??? Between the great Wall and a courthouse specialist spy to pop 4 GSpies even from Philosophical Liz is a greta job!

2) How much did Korea and Russia mistrust you as I assume at elast a few spies were caught for negative diplomatic penalties (not that a few dozen redcoats could deal with)?

3) Once you swapped to science slider, you have essentially wasted the Great People to attain tech parity as you have no Great Scientists and thus academies for a Financial leader.

Speaking of point three, here's a question. Is it better to get a building giving 100% eps towards espionage for tech stealing or an academy at 50% beakers towards research.

A good thread and I don't mean to be listing complaints. I have never really been convinced/sold on the espionage slider and the fatc that you are playing from a position of tech weakness..

My view of espionage via the slider is that you are usually playing from a point of weakness. In this particular game I think it was utilized well as you had a stronge, peaceful techer near you. You also had the games best leader for this, philosphical to get the Gspies and financial to abuse the cottage cities. Nothing wrong with this, but just putting it in perspective, it is Liz.

I view espionage as a way to get a weaker techer (such as the warlords) to stay competitive until the vast amounts of acquired land adds up to a tech and commerce superiority. Hence I prefer to settle them and tech as I normally would. Less eps, but when directed towards a single AI, enough to steal what you want/need.

With that said, I like you idea of directing the slider to eps to steal what you need then swap back to research when techs are exhausted.

Some question/comments for discussion.

1) How long did it take to get those 4 GSpies??? Between the great Wall and a courthouse specialist spy to pop 4 GSpies even from Philosophical Liz is a greta job!

2) How much did Korea and Russia mistrust you as I assume at elast a few spies were caught for negative diplomatic penalties (not that a few dozen redcoats could deal with)?

3) Once you swapped to science slider, you have essentially wasted the Great People to attain tech parity as you have no Great Scientists and thus academies for a Financial leader.

Speaking of point three, here's a question. Is it better to get a building giving 100% eps towards espionage for tech stealing or an academy at 50% beakers towards research.

A good thread and I don't mean to be listing complaints. I have never really been convinced/sold on the espionage slider and the fatc that you are playing from a position of tech weakness..

Well if you're big and have at least constitution, EP slider is a top notch option if you're backward. There's no faster way to catch up. You get a lot of base EP from the buildings that goes through the multipliers. Running the slider here with the ability to make one EP > 1 beaker means you can really close wide tech gaps quickly as long as you don't get dow'd.

I did this on immortal and went from keshiks/cuirsassers when a number of AIs were pushing infantry (some had it) to tech parity before the game ended (some idiot built the UN and the world voted me winner).

The EP buildings are pretty worthwhile to build in general, as the raw EP you get from them is enough to steal a number of techs even if you never get a single gspy. If you're backward though (and it's not unrealistic if you expand via war early), it's probably the best way to cover ground. With state religion, open borders, stationary spy, ep differential, and ep spending, you can get the cost well below what it would be in beakers. In one really extreme case I got it to less than half (IIRC, the EP cost is based on base tech cost for speed and doesn't scale with size properly, making it very abusive on larger maps...just where conquest might put you meaningfully behind!). Even without improper scaling, this is extremely powerful on standard maps though.

You don't always have the luxury of a tech lead, after all.

(IIRC, the EP cost is based on base tech cost for speed and doesn't scale with size properly, making it very abusive on larger maps...just where conquest might put you meaningfully behind!). Even without improper scaling, this is extremely powerful on standard maps though.

TheMeInTeam,

This is incorrect and I have to speak up here and apologize for introducing this erroneous fact to you. I misunderstood a post about the EE where they talked about the city revolt mission not scaling with size. Tech costs do scale with size, and the Espionage cost is 1.5 times the scaled Beaker cost.

That is: Optics base tech cost is 600, multiply it by 3.0 for Marathon speed multiplier, then multiply by 1.25 for Immortal difficulty multiplier, then multiply by 1.5 for Huge map size multplier and you end up with a 3375 Beaker cost to manually tech Optics. Take 3375 and multiply it by 1.5 to get 5062 Espionage points needed to theft it. (Numbers gratuitiously stolen from VirusMonster's thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260902))

But 5062 is greater than 3375. How can Espionage be superior to manual teching?

Disregarding buildings, if you simply take the base Espionage cost of 5062, and use ONLY the "5 turn Stationary Spy" reduction of 50%, and you see that 5062 is reduced to 2531. The 2531 Espionage is much less than 3375 Beakers needed. However there are also tons of other things that can influence the cost in your benefit, such as Trade Routes, same State Religion, and more which can reduce that 50% even further. IIRC the most it can be reduced is all the way down to 20%. And 20% of 5062 is 1012.

Anyways, sorry about that TheMeInTeam. That was my fault for introducing you to that erroneous fact.

Kesshi:

Because you are not taking into account the modifiers. Have open borders and trade routes with the target city, get a discount. Control the holy city of your state religion and have that religion be present in their city, get a HUGE discount. Wait 5 turns get a huge discount.

This, of course, ignores the fact that espionage has the highest possible modifiers in the game (barring 7 religion Korea and the like). Espionage is handily cheaper than self research in terms of :commerce:/spec cost, it really only has trouble with early :hammers: costs but at the time when TMIT is talking you can do marvels with strong espionage.

mirthadir,

Trust me, I'm well aware. :)

I've read VirusMonster's Guide to 500k+ scores through Huge map domination on Immortal difficulty (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=260902) probably a dozen times, and have used it as reference more times than I can count.