Recently I got back to Civ 4. I'm jinxed by some not very good starts - either there are a lot of plains, or a bit too much hills for my taste... and such.

How do you deal with starts that are "meh"? I don't mean "utter crap", because in such cases I'd restart any day.

Take somebody else's land :D

Standard answer here, "It Depends".

Lots of variables too. For me, its about how hard I want the game to be at the start. Also, just because the very first tiles you see arent so great, you never know whats just across the fog, could be that 3 riverside Gem forests or some big fat desert.

Regenerate the map by typing ESC then Regenerate Map.*

*Matthew5117 CO. is not responsible for any addiction relating to Regenerating Maps.

Play them! Those are the best maps of all because they ask you to maximize what meager resources you can muster together. In some cases, they make even normally inadvisable strategies the only way to succeed.

Those are always great learning experiences and the wins on such starts are always so satisfying.

I spit at the wind and go down in a glorious albeit frequently pathetic attempt.

Most starts have something going for them. Coastal starts tend to lend themselves towards a GLH economy, too many plains just means rebuild the capital somewhere green or plan using the theo route to lib and going FS early. Taking the AIs land is always a consideration. And then there are things like going for WE/SSE with several plains/tree chops.

Truthfully, the big thing for me about starting location is not the number of green/FP tiles, but the resources. I'm not going to work half my caps tiles for a long time, normally, so as long as I can get good use from a few tiles I'm doing alright.

Mainy, mainy times I just use all my food tiles (3-6), maybe a few mines, pump settlers, and rebuild the cap somewhere in the FPs.

What tends to define a bad start for me is something like being on a linear landmass sandwhiched between Shaka and Ghenghis with Hannibal and HC not within thwacking distance.

I tend to agree with mirth ----> the big limit on a start isn't typically what you can see on turn 1, but the kind of civs you have to deal with and the resources within reasonable settling range.

What do you mean by mediocre? No bronze/horse/iron means you have to REX and dig in, go for a high economy strategy, or get some choice wonders.

Lots of plains tends to mean you rely more on SE or whipping. Mines, you can kill people and overpower them. Grassland cottages and trade routes don't require special resources and are among the best commerce sources in the game, grassland mines are 3/5 as efficient as their special resource counterparts, but they'll make up the majority of your production.

I get more pissed off when my 2nd warrior dies.

Depends on my mood, really. Sometimes I feel like seeing if I can win with a terrible start; sometimes I feel like seeing how high of a score I can get with a great start. But, for me at least, I have to have copper within reach for my 2nd city on emperor+, unless I'm playing as the malinese or some other civ with a decent UU in that era.

Don't worry about how many bad tiles you have -- the only thing that matters is how good your best tiles are. Give me two irrigated Corn, a Gold, and 17 deserts and I'll be fine.

Depends on my mood, really. Sometimes I feel like seeing if I can win with a terrible start; sometimes I feel like seeing how high of a score I can get with a great start. But, for me at least, I have to have copper within reach for my 2nd city on emperor+, unless I'm playing as the malinese or some other civ with a decent UU in that era.

Can't you just chop great wall or fogbust with archers? It's a bigger problem when boxed in though...hopefully there's horses or iron, or you can get to rifling then.

Every start is good enough. Seriously it is. even the really crap starts turn out all right in the end.

It's when your gold mine is hosting a stack of impi from shaka, monty's UU is robbing your 2 gems on a grass hill and your still trying to get that settler out to settle the 3 corn and 3 fish. Thats what really grinds my gears.

Or just install this http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=mapfinder

I usually try to play through a bad start. Most of the time I will have a crap game but sometimes I will get lucky and pull off a good game. If I am not at a certain level by 1,000 a.d., I usually just reset the game.

I think it is worse when you get a great start and find out after a few hours of play that you don't have oil and aluminum and miss out on the corporations, etc.. and can't get access to the oil or aluminum. You wasted all that time for nothing, ha ha.

I usually try to play through a bad start. Most of the time I will have a crap game but sometimes I will get lucky and pull off a good game. If I am not at a certain level by 1,000 a.d., I usually just reset the game.

I think it is worse when you get a great start and find out after a few hours of play that you don't have oil and aluminum and miss out on the corporations, etc.. and can't get access to the oil or aluminum. You wasted all that time for nothing, ha ha.

You find out who has oil before it becomes usable. Long before...take advantage!

if(naffstart_because_of_plain_and_forests)
chop_worker_worker_settler_and_find_somewhere_bett er;
else if (sod_all_forests)
beeline_BW_and_try_for_axes_&_smeg_someone;
else if (nack_all_&_all_alone)
die_a_primitive_death_when_AI_discovers_me;

Reroll generally, I sadly only have time for the rare game of civ these days so I'm generally fairly picky on the ones I play.

But... if it's absolutely horrid I always play them, for some reason the really bad starts always interest me.

I usually try to play through a bad start. Most of the time I will have a crap game but sometimes I will get lucky and pull off a good game. If I am not at a certain level by 1,000 a.d., I usually just reset the game.

I think it is worse when you get a great start and find out after a few hours of play that you don't have oil and aluminum and miss out on the corporations, etc.. and can't get access to the oil or aluminum. You wasted all that time for nothing, ha ha.

While there is SOME truth to that with Al, oil is a gimme. If you honestly have zero oil handy then you should BEELINE for SE. More likely you got some advantage for not having oil and you should leverage into new oil ASAP. If you are really desperate, do a marine Amphib assualt on a few towns, raze em to the ground, and then build a new city on top of coastal oil. Pack full with defenders.

Alternatively you just leverage the other great strategic resource: Uranium. Don't have tanks? Who cares you have nukes, cavalry and paratroopers. Don't have Al? Who cares, you can just nuke the SOB into the stone age.

This, of course ignores the other options of:
1. Buying the resource from the AI (works best if they are friendly and you have another strategic resource to offer).
2. Teching out to Robotics and going on an Arty/MInf ramapge.
3. Going for a diplo win.
4. Going for a culture win.
5. Starting some AI - AI wars and poaching a few cities with oil.
6. Building to space.

Very, very, very rarely has to map made me lose, most of the time I made a bad call or gambled too much.

Depends on my mood. i have no problem regenerating a map.

While there is SOME truth to that with Al, oil is a gimme. If you honestly have zero oil handy then you should BEELINE for SE. More likely you got some advantage for not having oil and you should leverage into new oil ASAP. If you are really desperate, do a marine Amphib assualt on a few towns, raze em to the ground, and then build a new city on top of coastal oil. Pack full with defenders.

Alternatively you just leverage the other great strategic resource: Uranium. Don't have tanks? Who cares you have nukes, cavalry and paratroopers. Don't have Al? Who cares, you can just nuke the SOB into the stone age.

This, of course ignores the other options of:
1. Buying the resource from the AI (works best if they are friendly and you have another strategic resource to offer).
2. Teching out to Robotics and going on an Arty/MInf ramapge.
3. Going for a diplo win.
4. Going for a culture win.
5. Starting some AI - AI wars and poaching a few cities with oil.
6. Building to space.

Very, very, very rarely has to map made me lose, most of the time I made a bad call or gambled too much.

Thanks. I am glad I listened to you guys and didn't reset. When I found out I was lacking oil, it was frustrating because I was already behind in the power level and I was mainly going for a space win. That meant I had to waste time going the robotics route and get mechs. I had uranium, but the no build nukes resolution was passed. I normally would have built a few tanks, or nukes to get me through, but I had to resort to mechs.

I was able to launch in 2010 with Pacal, but that is pretty horrible for a Prince level game. I have a lot of work to do to get better.

IMO there is no "horrible", there is only fun, or not fun. Winning tends to be more fun than losing. Winning against odds tends to be more fun than winning too easily. That's what the game is about: finding the right level of challenges to overcome for it to be fun, and screw the value judgments others may make.

The deity-level players always regen their maps until they get absolutely ideal resource placement, so don't let their boast-posts intimidate you. Keep on having fun, bottom line.

One thing about regen-ing maps is that just regenerating, you don't see where iron/horses/copper/etc are. A terrible start may not be so terrible if you end up with iron, horses, and coal in your BFC.

Can't you just chop great wall or fogbust with archers? It's a bigger problem when boxed in though...hopefully there's horses or iron, or you can get to rifling then.

Fogbust with archers? lol... must be a small map. That would still help lower the number of incoming, but I play on huge maps so they will still come unless I'm on an island or something.

Chopping great wall? I suppose that'd be worth a shot before resetting. The AI tends to build that wonder really fast on emperor/immortal, though.

Axe/Sword/Mace maybe
they solve nearly all kinds of map problems
like in a recent game as Carthage
I was isolated on a four tile island and no chances of even settling another city

IMO there is no "horrible", there is only fun, or not fun. Winning tends to be more fun than losing. Winning against odds tends to be more fun than winning too easily. That's what the game is about: finding the right level of challenges to overcome for it to be fun, and screw the value judgments others may make.

I agree with this, I start a huge amount of games but only a few can hold my attention. A start needs to have potential (which doesn't mean a great BFC, you need decent surrounding land), and it needs to be challenging enough to be interesting but not impossible. I don't mind losing a close game, it's the closeness that is interesting.

I agree with this, I start a huge amount of games but only a few can hold my attention. A start needs to have potential (which doesn't mean a great BFC, you need decent surrounding land), and it needs to be challenging enough to be interesting but not impossible. I don't mind losing a close game, it's the closeness that is interesting.

What's interesting about a great start is later when you're raping their triremes with privateers.:goodjob:

Complete ownage can be fun too though. Sometimes I'll trek back to "pangea on noble" just for a few confidence-builder domination vics before going back to beating my head against a 70% loss rate on Immortal, Continents map.