Well no Barbs were found from the hut and instead we got a legion. Interestingly the Legion could reach Thunderfalls at the same time as the horseman. Its possible that the land may be joined to the east of the horse so that could be interesting.

RC is now building a Phalanx since it seemed the more sensible option since the thread was quite old. TF is building a settler but we may need a poll to decide which unit to bring back to the city.

The Archer, Legion and Chariot all have one move left but the horseman has moved this turn. Also we are researching Ceremonial Burial at the moment as Bronze working was completed.

Heres the Saved game, hopefully it will be in the correct version this time.

Heres a picture of the continent

The legion would be better for keeping the peace in ThunderFalls. I'd recommend keeping that horsemen out for exploring purposes, especially is that land is an isthums instead of a peninsula, as I think it is. Besides, the legion has a higher defense than a horseman.

I agree! ;)

Stick the legion back into the city and then get the rest exploring if you reckon it'll get there at the same time as the horseman. We found a river as well! This is definitely trade wonderland! For the time being, though, I have to maintain that the Gem City is best for the SSC. :D

That's a good result from the hut, another unit, we haven't been unlucky at all with the units we've gotten from the huts!

At gems city we haven't found a fourth special. :( Can someone tell if we will get a special there anyway when we mine that piece of land?

I think we should get the legion to TFalls as it will be there in 6 turns and the horseman will be there in 6 turns as well (following the path mentioned in the exploration thread), this will be just in time to avoid unhappiness.

In the mean time the chariot and horseman can go on exploring the land in the north, who knows how far this land extends!!!

Originally posted by Dell19
RC is now building a Phalanx since it seemed the more sensible option since the thread was quite old. TF is building a settler but we may need a poll to decide which unit to bring back to the city.

I'd like to see RC switch to wonder production in stead of a unit and bring the archer to RC to avoid unhappiness and provide defense as the defense of an archer is the same as a phalanx (right?).

Extra: the archer hasn't moved yet so if it moves this turn in the direction of RC it will take 8 more turns to reach RC. Can someone predict when unhappiness will be a problem in RC? If unhappiness occurs sooner we may want to choose to let the horseman stay at RC until the archer has arrived.

Surely the Legion is a better attacker, assuming we find a hapless AI to the NorthWest. And if we loose it, we haven't lost a None. Let's bring back the Archer to guard. And plan TFalls to IPRB a Phalanx to accelerate the Settler.

The next big decision may be:
What do we build next in RC? Temple? Colossus?

Heres the Saved game, hopefully it will be in the correct version this time.
Hurrah! You have Civ2.42 working! I downloaded & tested the file in 2.42, and it works properly! :) Be sure and go back, and make a post (start a new thread if you don't already have one there) to the Civ 2 Tech Support Forum about what the problem was, and the things you eventually did to solve it. That will help others in the future who might be in the same boat. :)


I agree with GaryNemo.

In RC, the Phalanx will finish in 2 days (15s+2*3s > 20s). The next 3 citizens can be controlled with Mil Units, so build Colossus immediately when the Phalanx is done. Temple will probably need to be RB's after the 1st wonder, then back to making wonders (or caravans, if Trade by then).




Science: Researching CB. Will have CB on the 6th day from now (5b+3b*6 > 22b). On the 7th day, our science output will almost double, and we should get the next advance in 5 or 6 more days.

by Octavian X:
The legion would be better for keeping the peace in ThunderFalls. I'd recommend keeping that horsemen out for exploring purposes,
The problem with that is the home of the units. The legion is RC, and the horseman is NONE. You must never lose a NONE in early game, if at all possible. They are too valuable. Exploring is a high-risk endeavor. Also, you must have double move unit to kill barb leaders and get the 150gold in the core empire. Plus, a double move unit can use the roads to put out the happiness fires.

What this means is: Horseman should stay in core. Happiness is Job1, and soon it will be needed in RC, though TFalls needs it now.

The NONE Archer can return and protect a city, since it will be fairly safe. The Legion and Chariot can explore, and team up to pop huts, and maybe kill a Civ if we find one. That river implies there is more to the North.


by Civ1-Addict:
Extra: the archer hasn't moved yet so if it moves this turn in the direction of RC it will take 8 more turns to reach RC. Can someone predict when unhappiness will be a problem in RC?
On the 6th turn from now, RC will be in Anarchy, if the Phalanx is not completed. The Phalanx should be completed. Then a Wonder started. In 5+15+1=21 turns, RC will grow again, and need another unit (a support warrior from City #4, or TFalls).



Remember, the Legion is supported... any supported unit is expendable, but the NONEs are not. That's why the Legion should explore for now (and let the Chariot go with it... but if dieing is to be done, let the legion do it!). :D

Originally posted by civ1-addict
At gems city we haven't found a fourth special. :( Can someone tell if we will get a special there anyway when we mine that piece of land?

Yes, it will be a special. Unfortunately, without knowing what special it is we can't try to predict what the special in the ocean would be for RC (either fish or whale).

Yeah! Let's go and see if we can find someone who is tough enough to kill our legion! I never bother with building legions myself, so it will be interesting to see the best way to use it. I suggest that it be used to explore any terrain with movement penalties and defensive bonuses if possible because that will enhance its abilities. A vet would be nice if possible, and then he can pop all the mountainous huts we find. Of course, maybe the land doesn't stretch too much further, but as starlifter said, I haven't seen too many rivers of only a couple of squares so that suggests we still have exploration to do! :goodjob: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a network of rivers hereabouts so that we have another potential SSC candidate. ;)
It will mean we can explore a lot quicker though. This seems to be setting us up for a science slingshot at the start with the starting terrain we've got and we don't want to disappoint! :) Let's get our super science cities up and running. :goodjob:

Wow we've got a multiple SSC game on our hands here! ;)

Yes, it will be a special. Unfortunately, without knowing what special it is we can't try to predict what the special in the ocean would be for RC (either fish or whale).
You right, at the moment. However, there is a way... if the land continues. The patterns of special types might be inferred by careful comparison to the Master Pattern in the BC3550 thread as we discover more up north. Unfortunately, the key terrain we keep needing to see is always either at sea (2nd tile out), or grassland!!! It is as if the game is toying with us.

For the SSC (Gems City or RC), it is important that we figure out what the grassland is (fish or whale). If Whale, we should road it for now, and transform it to Hills (Wine!) asap (with Explosives/Engineers). If it is a fish, then we might as well settle for a mine (to get Forest... which will be a Pheasant). Then irrigate the pheasant as appropriate (e.g., if trade is more useful than food, which will be the case by some point).

BTW, Another option is just to to a John Wayne and Mine... if a Silk emerges, well, it's not near as good as Wine, but still OK. A John Wayne transform (a blind transform) shoud not be done in a trade city, as the result of a fish land tile would be coal (no trade, wince no river thru it).

:)

I was thinking along GaryNemo/starlifter's line of keeping the Legion out exploring in case we run across another civ.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by starlifter


The problem with that is the home of the units. The legion is RC, and the horseman is NONE. You must never lose a NONE in early game, if at all possible. They are too valuable. Exploring is a high-risk endeavor.

I sort of see your point, but I think that at this stage, we
need to see how much land lies in that E/NE section, as it
looks likely to be an isthmus. After all, we can
reduce the risk somewhat by not popping huts, and IMHO
we need to see if there's an AI civ lurking up there.
Or to put it another way, I think the reward in terms
of knowledge outweighs the risk.

My $.02

The horseman may actually best. If you look at the map, its quite possible that the northen land will curve round so that we will be able to explore the land without a trireme. Any the horseman will still explore abit before returning so we will at least see what the land is like. We may find we are on quite a large continent.

Btw Legions are not very good for fighting because the Ai will get Pikeman too quickly and then their 4 attack isn't good enough, especially with only one movement point. Although we could get lucky.

Don't forget that the pikeman only gets the defensive bonus against mounted troops (those with a move of 2) so against the chariot then they would be formidable but against the legion or archer then they are no better than phalanxes. :)

Well their main problem is the movement. Unless some previous civ has left some nice railroads you have to move them right up to the city walls, allowing them to attack and usually they will win unless they only have a few troops.

I will probably play the game next on Friday depending on how the decision making goes.

Sooooo.......

What is the plan if we do find a civ to the north?

I would think that if we find a city defended by only one unit, then the AI may not attack the legion, and the issue of one movement point may be a non-issue (especially if we can move to a hill / mountain / forest for the defence bonus).

Where I'm going with this, and how it relates to the discussions is whether we want the units sent to explore to stay near each other. If they are close, it will make taking a city much more likely. Or then again, do we even risk a "non" chariot against the ai, and just retain it for exploration.

I would be keen on keeping the legion near to the chariot, and using both offensively (legion attacking first, though). The risk here is that exploration will suffer. But what are we actually trying to achieve with exploration anyway? I think that it is actually all about finding the nearest civs early enough to wipe them out. :)


Re-reading the above, it is a bit all-over-the-place-ish, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

I think we can play a couple turns now, not Friday.

I humbly submit this as the consensus action plan:

Horse explores NE.
Archer comes back to guard.
Legion & Chariot explore NW River etc.
TFalls IPRB Phx to accelerate Settler, use all gold.
TFalls managed by Entertainer, then Archer.
Regia Civitas to build Phalanx, then what?

The old polls are now useless. It seems to me that we need to know if we have a small island or not, to decide whether to build a Temple or Colossus next in Regia Civitas.

If this is not the ideal short term plan, please comment.
Or, comment to agree to move tonight, at dusk.

If we see another civ then we crush them. Simple as that. :)

We can use the rivers to get the legion to move 3 squares per turn and if they have built their city next to the river then the legion will get a defensive bonus too! :goodjob: If we can manage to park the legion on a hill or mountain next to an enemy city then they'll have a huge job to shift him. By then they'll be toast! :satan:

Originally posted by GaryNemo
I think we can play a couple turns now, not Friday.


Whoa! I don't know if Dell wants to move tonight but give others a chance to contribute to the discussions before we march on. I don't know what time you mean when you say dusk, but I'm sure that CFC members will miss out here if we surge on with the game. This thread hasn't been open that long to give people a chance to have their say. I realise that the slow pace can be a little frustrating, but this is a very important stage of the game but the choice of SSC location will mean the difference between a substantial tech lead in the end game and an enormous one. :)

But do we wait until the chariot is near enough to attack too?

If there is more than one defender, I think that the legion will struggle to take the city on its own. Or is this discussion best held when we find the civ??? Probably. :D

What is the saying? You shouldn't split up the bear's hide before you've killed him. What we are doing here is talking about the spoils before we've even found them.

That notwithstanding, I advocate subjugating any civ we meet in the next millennium (roundabout). Their citizen. will be much happier in our empire, anyway.

And if there are spoils, I want one of those round shields that gallic chieftains paraded on (remember "Asterix"?).

Don't count your chickens.....?

I'm not suggesting that there are even enemies on the other end of the river or we'd beat the heck out of them with the units we currently have if there are, but it pays to be prepared and since we have so many units then the sooner we can get to an AI civ's cities the sooner we can remove them from history altogether. :)
Were there any good names for the Gauls in the German versions? I particularly like the names of the Roman generals etc and the fishmonger Unhygienix in the English version but each language has its own puns! :goodjob:

by Dell:
Btw Legions are not very good for fighting because the Ai will get Pikeman too quickly and then their 4 attack isn't good enough, especially with only one movement point.
Sorry, I am not tracking on that statement... what do you mean about Legions not being good for fighting, esp. against Pikemen? Pikemen get a +1 defensive bonus against 2-move 1HP units (essentially, ancient mounted units.. See Sodak for detalied combat resolution info). Pikemen get no bonus against non-mounted units like Legions. Legions are exellent for taking out Pikemen, as long at the Pike is not behind walls, or in really tough defensive areas. Move a legion up to an early game city, attack and let the chariot attack, or capture. The pair will wipe out any AI capital this early in the game, if the work in tandem. The one movement point does not matter too much at this point in the game, if the legion moves smartly! BTW, the Legion can block and hold a defensive terrain in a chokepoint.


by GaryNemo:
Horse explores NE.
Archer comes back to guard.
Legion & Chariot explore NW River etc.
TFalls IPRB Phx to accelerate Settler, use all gold.
TFalls managed by Entertainer, then Archer.
Regia Civitas to build Phalanx, then what?
Nice summary! I agree. And I'll comment:

- The Horseman should be able to make it back to TFalls, but if it can't, then I agree with an entertainer for a turn.

- RC should definitely start a Wonder after Phalanx. The math shows that it can easily finish a wonder long before happiness control with units becomes a problem, an hence a Temple delays the 1st wonder by 20%, and it costs 1g per turn for about 50-60 turns. Also, temples are much mroe economical after Mysticism. And since we're not in Republic, it's better just to use a junk warrior for size 3 happiness.

Originally posted by starlifter
Move a legion up to an early game city, attack and let the chariot attack, or capture. The pair will wipe out any AI capital this early in the game, if the work in tandem. The one movement point does not matter too much at this point in the game, if the legion moves smartly! BTW, the Legion can block and hold a defensive terrain in a chokepoint.

So, I think that we move the Legion along the river, and keep the chariot within striking distance. Of course, we can re-evaluate if the area to the north is clear.

They're just the other side of the river.... I can smell 'em ;)

I"ll add my vote to the summary as presented by GaryNemo, and to starlifter's addition of having RC start a wonder right away.

Originally posted by duke o' york
I'm not suggesting that there are even enemies on the other end of the river or we'd beat the heck out of them with the units we currently have if there are, but it pays to be prepared and since we have so many units then the sooner we can get to an AI civ's cities the sooner we can remove them from history altogether. :)


Ummm. While I may be misinterpreting, it would seem
there is no thought being given to the fact that an AI civ
may be lurking to the NE. If that turned out to be the
case, should the horse retreat awaiting re-enforcement,
or proceed to blot the blighters?

Originally posted by GaryNemo
I think we can play a couple turns now, not Friday.

We don't want to try to rush the game. We need to allow enough time for everyone to particpate in the discussions. :)

Also, as I've said before, we should be getting any needed polls after every round of turns.

If you are an Advisor, please make sure your threads have the informartion in them for the current situation in the game.

If you are a deputy and you have not seen the Advisor for your position making any needed threads, then step forward and take charge. :) (maybe a PM to them first would be helpful ;))

If there are any questions let me know.

For a while Legoins are useful and we could perhaps take one or two cities with it but in most of my games, the computer will quite quickly have an attacking unit in their city and will attack and generally kill the legion.

What is it you've got against the poor legion Dell?
We're just as likely to get our asses kicked with any other unit. Say we've got an elephant and it finds a city. We can attack the city and kill the defender, but you'll know from experience that the AI will have magically rushbought another unit that will come out and maybe kill you. The defense of 2 is very useful when paired with the attack of 4 and means that a rushbought AI warrior will not be able to kill you and it gives you the chance to wipe out their civ. :goodjob: If we can also get the legion to vet status by wiping out a barb then he'll be even more powerful and the AI will have trouble killing him. If there is another civ up northward then I'd expect the chariot to discover them, hopefully with the opportunity to move away again, and then we will be able to get the legion up to their city by using the best defensive terrain, increasing his chances of survival :).

Ok I'm sorry I just don't like them that much :)

The Legion is a gift, and I for one will treat it with respect. Working with our speedy Chariot, I hope for great results.

Regarding planning speed, I agree with the suggestion to start polls soon after our President has made our commitments. And if we had knowledge of Writing, that might improve our communication. Anyway... so many decisions are being researched so far out, we need another hundred years of information to properly discuss them.

Like where to attack. Attack whom? Or moving the Capital and/or SSC? What? We had decided on Regia Civitas and I for one would like to proceed accordingly for the near future. Also I am concerned for our safety, and having a road to RC.

Hoping we'll move at dusk, tonight...
-Concerned citizen of TFalls, one of many.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Also, as I've said before, we should be getting any needed polls after every round of turns.

If you are an Advisor, please make sure your threads have the informartion in them for the current situation in the game.
I'm not sure whether or not this was directed at me as well but what the hell! :D

From the conversations here and polls posted earlier I would like to give my advise on exploration:
-legion and chariot go NE and explore the land beyond, legion follows the river (for extra movement) chariot uncovers the rest.
-archer goes W and uncovers the tile of the NW SSC-site that is still black, then stays around to protect the future NW SSC I think.
-horseman goes NW to uncover two more tiles and then goes to TFalls just in time to avoid unhappiness.

Agreed? If not, say so. ;)

Yes Addict, but I think the Legion and Chariot are going perhaps NW, sort of up and left, rather than NE. And the Horse goes NE to uncover 1 tile, then I guess NE again to uncover 2 more.

I'd like the archer to head back to guard, but I can see heading W twice would uncover a black tile. But I don't think that black tile is in the city radius of the Gems Whale Silk City, is it?

If the Horse finds land, I'd rather recall our Archer to guard.

I agree with GaryNemo about the archer recall if the horse finds a land bridge. The horse will be obliged to explore, regardless of NONE status, and the rest of the empire will just have to make do.

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