I've been playing Civ IV for a year or so now (with BtS last 6 months), and have slowly been working my way up to Prince. My win rate is approx. 60%. Map size always normal. Ususally play Roosevelt, but lately I have begun experimenting with other leaders with other traits.

Been visiting the Civ IV forums regularly, and have learned tons of things I didn't know. However, it seems I have reached some kind of plateu.

My strategy is roughly as follows:
- Build order in city 1: Worker, worker, settler, warrior, warrior, settler (or something like it)
- Research order: Techs needed to improve tiles in BFC, but I try to get to BW quite early to enable slavery. Then writing, aesthetics (to trade for alphabet and other remaining earlier techs), math, construction
- Switch to slavery and whip away red faces
- Try to keep a focus on early expansion and are usually able to settle 5-6 cities in reasonably good locations. If I have the chance to block off my opponents, I do it.
- I never go for founding a religion, unless I happen to be the first to arrive at CoL or by bulbing Phil.
- I hit F4 every fifth turn or so to see who has what and who will give it to me
- I never build the oracle
- I try to maintain good relations with my neighbours. Usually give in to their demands, unless they are on the other side of the continent, already pissed off or friends with someone who hates me.
- I also like warring and usually win by domination or conquest sometime around 1930s - 40s.
- I try to specialise my cities into GP-farms (lots of food and ideally a couple of "mine-able" areas), production cities (river-plains to place work shops, hills to mine and some good spots for farms), commerce cities (with somewhat same lay-out as a production cities, but replace work shops with cottages)


My questions are:
Tech order after alphabet? I'm thinking there are 3 routes to go:

a. Head for literature and CoL if I got a food rich city to run Scientists, build Great Lib, and national epic (I think that's its name) to get the 100% GP boost, run scientists, generate great scientists and bulb away
b. The war-route: Construction, metal casting, machinery and engineering to build trebs and other military units. Then go pick on one of the weakest around me. These are quite expensive techs, and my experience is that the other AIs catch up and overtake me techwise if I choose to do this.
c. Monarchy and Feudalism to protect myself while I carry on minding my own business.
And further down the line:
d. How high should I prioritize Nationalism and military tradition? I tend to be drawn towards printing press --> replacable parts --> rifling (with gunpowder, of course)

Aesthetics before Alphabet?

I experience from my latest games that the AI overtakes me in tech and points around when machinery is discovered. Why? why? why?

What kind of specialists do you run in your cities? I tend to stick to a bunch of scientists under caste system, but not sure if this is wise.

SE/CE ratio? How many cities running SE vs. cities with cottages everywhere?

Optimal SoD-composition? Number of cats/trebs compared to melee, spear/pike, horse archer?

I know that I shouldn't attack the continent's alpha-male as long as his power rating is way above mine, but how high should a potential enemy's power rating be compared to yours for you to decide to look for someone else to pick on?

When do you start the liberalism-race?


I realise that this may be hard to give rock solid answers to, but I feel I'm beyond the point of general advice (e.g. "specialise your cities" and "focus on diplomacy and trade"), and that I need some more "to the point"-advice.


Thanks in advance

I never go for founding a religion, unless I happen to be the first to arrive at CoL or by bulbing Phil.

I have found that teching towards Polytheism early with FDR does a couple of things, -it may land you Hinduism (unlikely but doable) and takes you down the Monarchy path so you don't have to whip.
I suggest that much of the general advice given can be ignored after a time and an early
religion, and the Oracle are not less favorable then rushing towards Bronze Working. In other words you may want to change your tech order and build order, and instead of skipping the Oracle skip Liberalism.
Metal Casting, and Nationalism are important tradeable techs.

There's nothing there I can pinpoint as a typical 'mistake' that normally keeps people on Prince - your tech path may be too rigid, I'm not sure. On Prince, there's normally not a lot of trading to be had, if you've at all focused on your early economy. I often ignore Alphabet completely unless there's a tech whore nearby (if so, he'll often trade it too).

The most important thing in the classical era, from a development perspective, is to increase your happy cap as soon as you can. That can mean a number of things - building the 'mids and going Representation, Monarchy for Hereditary Rule, Calendar if you have a lot of those resources, or (rarely) religion. Once you've got your cities up from around size 5 to around size 9, you can start focusing on Civil Service and the Liberalism race.

Other than that, it's difficult to say - do you have a save, or screenshots from a typical game?

Oh - you probably know this if you've been reading the forums - but don't listen to this guy ^^ ;)

"building the 'mids and going Representation, Monarchy for Hereditary Rule"

"but don't listen to this guy "

..."takes you down the Monarchy path so you don't have to whip" ...me

I don't know about your opening build order for a start. I mean worker 1st is good of course, but why do you need the 2nd worker so soon? And a settler before any units (warriors, archers) is dubious. Sure, it will work in some situations but I don't see much merit in doing this on a regular basis. For your techs, BW is always good so you are wise to go after it, but Aesthetics before Alphabet is a bit dodgy on Prince because the AI techs so slow. This works better on emperor+ IMHO.

Anyway, you seem to have a solid grasp about what to do in the early-midgame, but maybe you are struggling with focussing your efforts into a particular area? Do you ever go for early rushes? Do you build wonders just for the sake of it? Are you playing to your civs strengths?... etc are questions you might want to ask yourself. I guess what I'm saying is that you need to come up with a set of plans in order to win each game you play. What works well in one game might be a waste of time in another. Another poster said he thought you might have too rigid a playstyle and I'm inclined to agree although it's tough to tell without looking at a few saves. (hint, hint :)). Maybe experiment a bit more and try out a few more leaders to see what suits your style best (America isn't great to play if you ask me).

And don't be afraid of dropping down the leaderboard in score because it really doesn't tell the full story to put it simply. For me, strong tech rate, high power rating, decent size land mass, and good diplo are far better gauges as to how you are really doing.

Aside from that, keep cheching the forums and read some of the old ALC games -- even though they are at a higher difficulty I think they could be very helpful for you to see how to come up with some important goals and learn how to adapt to the particular map/situation etc. Good Luck with it!

Initial build order you could try worker>warrior>warrior(get to pop2)>settler. Going worker worker settler leaves your city on pop1 for a long time and therefore slows down initial expansion. Your worker can start improvements in city tile and then chop towards settler after BW. If you grow to pop2 then you can also whip 30 hammers towards settler which speeds it up.

Aesthetics is a reasonable choice,if you can pick up alphabet, maths and IW you're doing well. Once you've got aesthetics then it makes sense to go for lit and Great Library. CoL is an alternative tech path to aesthetics, you can lighbulb philosophy after maths and alphabet and then head towards civil service for early bureaucracy.

I've had good results with warrior > worker > warrior > settler, so that I get to pop 2 before the worker (faster worker build) and 3 or 4 before the settler build. All around faster and usually there isn't much for workers to do prior to the techs required to work.

Unless I start with mining, in which case I'm beelining to BW anyway (instead of AH if it's a hunting/ag start). Then I'll be more of a chop-a-holic.

Worker-Worker-Settler will kill you unless you tech Bronze Working as the first tech. Building 2 workers manually will kill your early growth too much. Of course, BW first can be really bad if you have tiles to improve and do not start with a tech that does not allow you to. If you have a coastal start, workboat first may be good. On coastal starts, fit a workboat among the first few builds. The moral is don't have a rigid build order. The game should dictate the build order. Likewise for the tech order.

Never founding a religion is also rigid. While founding an early religion can be detrimental for early development, it can help you:
1) diplomacy - you can convert your neighbors to your religion for increase in relations
2) income - build a shrine with a Great Prophet and spread your religion far and wide; early in the game, this can be huge and later on, you should build Monasteries and Temples in as many cities as possible and University of Sankore and Spiral Minaret and watch the research and gold increase
3) happiness - if you adopt it as a state religion, you get +1 happy in cities that have it
4) winning the game; you can use the Apostolic Palace to win the game - if you have your own religion, you have more control of to whom and how you want to spread your religion

There is no ultimate strategy that always works in civ IV; if/when someone finds it, they'll be the best player on the forums by far. Of course, some strategies still work in more situations than others.

Many players (including me sometimes) tend to lose focus after the early game around medieval age (maybe Machinery ;)). You should always have a plan throughout the game - a well defined one, but a flexible one.

While beelining Rifling is by no means bad, you're probably better off getting Steel for Cannon. See the Joao and Sury games in my sig for how Cannon work. Knights/Cuirassiers + Cannons > Riflemen + Trebuchets vs. medieval armies. Some may disagree on this. Military Tradition is a great tech; cuirassiers rock when used in conjunction with spies/cannons.

I typically have one GP farm if I'm running a CE which I almost always do unless I play a Philosophical leader. If I have more, I try to make them pure (i.e. one produces GS and another GA). All cities that do no have strong production should be cottaged in a CE. Of course, build farms in necessary to allow growth. Scientists are the most common specialist run and there is nothing wrong with running them. Each specialist has its own strengths.

Stack composition varies, but siege should be a considerable part of any stack especially if fighting an opponent that is on par technologically.

Regarding who to attack, try to maintain a balance of power; never let one AI get too powerful. If they are threatening you, try to take them out ASAP. They rarely get weaker as time goes on.

A liberalism beeline is not always the best strategy, but I often find myself pursuing it. Read Mad Scientist's article on Liberalism Beeline under Strategy Articles for more info.

Never founding a religion is also rigid. While founding an early religion can be detrimental for early development, it can help you:
1) diplomacy - you can convert your neighbors to your religion for increase in relations
2) income - build a shrine with a Great Prophet and spread your religion far and wide; early in the game, this can be huge and later on, you should build Monasteries and Temples in as many cities as possible and University of Sankore and Spiral Minaret and watch the research and gold increase
3) happiness - if you adopt it as a state religion, you get +1 happy in cities that have it
4) winning the game; you can use the Apostolic Palace to win the game - if you have your own religion, you have more control of to whom and how you want to spread your religion


There's also the espionage bonus if they have your religion in a city you're targeting.

GeHe, A few quick points that may help

1) worker/worker/settler really is poor as you city does not grow in population and thus it takes longer. Try worker, then some warrior thus increasing the population. You will shave off ALOT of time in building your second worker and first settler.

2) Never say never to anything, sometimes the Oracle can be a great wonder, especially if you favor Roosevelt (cheap early forges from the oracle slingshot).

3) Unless you really need catapults, prioritize currency and Code of Laws over construction for the economy.

3) Favoring Aesthetics and Lit are fine but if your looking for more consistent results, try the stable currency/Code of Laws. The Aesthetics route is a bit of a gamble.

4) Monarchy/Fuedalism are fine post currency/CodeofLaws. However, consider metal casting/Machinery also get's you forges (extra happiness from precious metals) and crossbows (essentially as good as longbows) and leads to engineering (trebs/castles) rather than guilds (knights/grocers). Both are certainly good choices, but sometimes one will play out better than the other.

5) Nationalism/Military tradion over Replaceable Part/Rifling is similar to the machniery/Fuedalism choice. Sometimes one is better than another, keep your options open.

But with all that said, I think if you alter your early built orders to let the capital grow in population more will increase your game alot.

I will only try for an early religion if I have a commerce producing tile to work, preferably with high food as well. I also consider whether I think I can chop stonehenge or oracle for the GP and early shrine.

I build a worker first if I can get bronze working about the same time to start chopping.

I sometimes build a warrior first to try to snag a nearby rival's worker.

If the AIs are pulling ahead of you at Prince by Machinery, then I think your problem may be under-expansion. You should aggressively settle your territory until your slider starts taking a nose-dive. Make sure you have Writing, and plenty of Workers (too few workers is a common mistake), and chop Libraries in as many cities as possible. You want to settle high food areas ASAP, and get those Scientiests up early, while teching to the Col-Curr combo that is the Holy Grail of an Ecomony. But dont stop expanding. If you have land, find a way. If your planning a CE, get em down fast and work em. High food cities will supply both beakers with Scientists and Hammers with the whip. Dont be shy with the whip, either, I whip most of my cities the instant their whip anger fades, and try to keep my populations up and working new Cottages the whole time. Sounds counter-active, but its really not. High food means the city will grow faster than the whip anger will fade, so happiness cap is the issue. Saying I whip when the anger fades could mean a 2 pop city, then a 4 pop city in 15 turns, then a 6 pop city in 15 turns, you get the idea. Dont whip everyone, Dave has a solid rule of thumb, dont whip if the citizen who gets the ax is working a Hamlet or a Mine . . . or something like that, LOL, I cant remember exactly, but you get the idea.

Eventually, your cities will turn it around, and instead of the expansion costing you cash and beakers and sliders, they will start to turn profits, and add to your economy. Takes a bit of time, though, so be patient. But dont stop expanding.

As someone else uses as his sig: land is power, land is power, land is power.

Long as you're not in STRIKE mode.

If you only settle 5-6 cities for the game, that's probably your problem. 10-12 is the minimum for peaceful wins unless you are playing on a low level. 15 by 1500AD is optimum imo.

Some of you asked for some saves to better be able to evaluate what I'm doing, and here they are. I would say this is a quite typical game for me. I've played to 500 AD, and I feel it's around here things tend to head for the worse. Changed the build order in city #1 (as recommended by you), and was able to expand a bit more quickly than before (thanks :) )

Anyways..
My plans is to maintain a good relatioship with Mansa to my east to trade som techs from him later on. Hannibal to the north has been bugging me all the way, and it's time he gets it. In process of gathering a stack now. Imo, Gandi and Cathy have to be kicked around at some piont as well.

I also have some land available to backfill later on.

Comments would be nice. Once again, thanks in advance :)

Hi all,

Just joined the forum. I've been playing the Civ games since there was only one Civ game. Civ II was probably my favourite, but I find it hard to go back after the later versions.

Anyway, I am also having this problem. I rarely lose games below Prince, but Prince victory has eluded me on all but one occasion. It definitely starts around the discovery of Machinery/Optics. One of two of the other Civs take off suddenly and continue to dominate the game. I'm usually researching Democracy when I akm told that someone (invariably the Russians) have built the Apollo Programme.

Things I notice that may help to nail down a solution:

I don't use specialists. I've not really made much of an effort to learn how to use them and assume they are used automatically.

My cities rarely get beyond 10 or so, frustrating when you encounter the Indians with cities of 20.

I rarely have great specialists develop, but I appreciate that is because of #1.

I have difficulty in getting other civs to 'like' me.

I tend to have a standard approach. I generally play Egyptians so I have instant road and agriculture and better shot at religions. I build a worker first and while he;s improbing Thebes I build stonehenge, which usually gets me up to 5 or so. I then power expand by sending out a parcel of worker, warrior and settler out, linking all my cities by road before they are formed. This would seem slow but I've had good luck with it, and can spread as fast as required. I always go for Hinduism and Stonehenge to start with, then aim (generally) for Alphabet (so I can trade techs before the others can) , Currency, Education, Liberalism, Rifling, etc, adding others as resources or situations require. I'm usually top dog until shortly after currency, or rather, when teh others develop Alphabet - yet I can't see that I'm neglecting trade. They just seem to trade with each other far more effectively.

Despite the seemingly fast start I do expand quite quickly, but it seems to be int eh workings of the cities that I fall down. Grateful for any advice (assuming of course that I have read the posts above and will tray a couple of them in future games...)

Many thanks,
Pelligri

Gehe looked at 1240bc save.

4 cities is fine by now. For me you are short on workers. All this lovely land and you are not working it. You are building granaries before you have enough workers to work the land. Cities grow faster if the land is irrigated. For example the pig resource by your capital and the copper.

I would want 5-6 workers by now not 1-2. I would be pushing for a 5th/6th city too. Count the science beakers per turn not the science rate. If i can get 100 science beakers a turn by 1ad i am happy.

I am a worker, worker, settler guy at start normally unless imperialist. I sometimes let the city grow to size two while i knock out a warrior slow time. If i have sea resources then fast city growth is a no brainer.

I micro managed a few of the cities. For instance one of the gold resources you were not using in the city screen. Your copper city is struggling with 1 food and production plains. Painful!!

Birka is builing a granary that will take 60 turns. Unless this is to grow the city i might of switched to worker. I would of certainly had the capital produce a worker in 6 turns. 2 workers and a settler for capital. You can chop a library elsewhere.

A high food/production city is often used as a worker/ settler pump. (i am sure someone else posted that today :lol:)

Your copper city is one tile off the coast. Coastal cities are always useful. Same goes for your stone city. Trade routes and sea resources are useful. Espcially when it comes to a military production city. Its good to have the heroic epic city produce land/sea units too. Its not clear if you grabbed this city for an early rush or to block in mansa.

You will have a great commerce city south west of your capital city with the flood plains and river. Financial trait and flood plain rivers is a no brainer.

When you move up to monarch you will find the Ai will expand more quickly. They will work the land with lots of workers.

Its not a bad start just needs tweaking and a touch more preparation before you dive in with buildings.

Hi all,

Just joined the forum. I've been playing the Civ games since there was only one Civ game. Civ II was probably my favourite, but I find it hard to go back after the later versions.

First, Welcome to the Forums Pelligri. :beer:

Anyway, I am also having this problem. I rarely lose games below Prince, but Prince victory has eluded me on all but one occasion. It definitely starts around the discovery of Machinery/Optics. One of two of the other Civs take off suddenly and continue to dominate the game. I'm usually researching Democracy when I akm told that someone (invariably the Russians) have built the Apollo Programme.

Your research is lagging.
1) Trade techs with the other civs.
2) Build Libraries early, and put two citizens to work as Scientist Specialists.
3) Establish a GP Farm (Great Person) to produce Great Scientists.
4) Create a science city with Great Library, University of Sankore, Oxford University, Library, University, Observatory. Build Academy here with Great Scientist.


Things I notice that may help to nail down a solution:

I don't use specialists. I've not really made much of an effort to learn how to use them and assume they are used automatically.

My cities rarely get beyond 10 or so, frustrating when you encounter the Indians with cities of 20.

I rarely have great specialists develop, but I appreciate that is because of #1.

See above for Specialists.
Cities must have food and happiness to grow. Make sure you're producing enough food, and build Granaries.

I have difficulty in getting other civs to 'like' me.

Do you trade techs? Resources?
Have an Open Borders agreement.
Occasionally gift :gold:.
Run their favorite civics.
Convert to their religion.

I tend to have a standard approach. I generally play Egyptians so I have instant road and agriculture and better shot at religions. I build a worker first and while he;s improbing Thebes I build stonehenge, which usually gets me up to 5 or so. I then power expand by sending out a parcel of worker, warrior and settler out, linking all my cities by road before they are formed. This would seem slow but I've had good luck with it, and can spread as fast as required. I always go for Hinduism and Stonehenge to start with, then aim (generally) for Alphabet (so I can trade techs before the others can) , Currency, Education, Liberalism, Rifling, etc, adding others as resources or situations require. I'm usually top dog until shortly after currency, or rather, when teh others develop Alphabet - yet I can't see that I'm neglecting trade. They just seem to trade with each other far more effectively.

You can occasionally gift a tech.

Despite the seemingly fast start I do expand quite quickly, but it seems to be int eh workings of the cities that I fall down. Grateful for any advice (assuming of course that I have read the posts above and will tray a couple of them in future games...)

Many thanks,
Pelligri

Hi all,

Just joined the forum. I've been playing the Civ games since there was only one Civ game. Civ II was probably my favourite, but I find it hard to go back after the later versions.

Anyway, I am also having this problem. I rarely lose games below Prince, but Prince victory has eluded me on all but one occasion. It definitely starts around the discovery of Machinery/Optics. One of two of the other Civs take off suddenly and continue to dominate the game. I'm usually researching Democracy when I akm told that someone (invariably the Russians) have built the Apollo Programme.

Things I notice that may help to nail down a solution:

I don't use specialists. I've not really made much of an effort to learn how to use them and assume they are used automatically.

My cities rarely get beyond 10 or so, frustrating when you encounter the Indians with cities of 20.

I rarely have great specialists develop, but I appreciate that is because of #1.

I have difficulty in getting other civs to 'like' me.

I tend to have a standard approach. I generally play Egyptians so I have instant road and agriculture and better shot at religions. I build a worker first and while he;s improbing Thebes I build stonehenge, which usually gets me up to 5 or so. I then power expand by sending out a parcel of worker, warrior and settler out, linking all my cities by road before they are formed. This would seem slow but I've had good luck with it, and can spread as fast as required. I always go for Hinduism and Stonehenge to start with, then aim (generally) for Alphabet (so I can trade techs before the others can) , Currency, Education, Liberalism, Rifling, etc, adding others as resources or situations require. I'm usually top dog until shortly after currency, or rather, when teh others develop Alphabet - yet I can't see that I'm neglecting trade. They just seem to trade with each other far more effectively.

Despite the seemingly fast start I do expand quite quickly, but it seems to be int eh workings of the cities that I fall down. Grateful for any advice (assuming of course that I have read the posts above and will tray a couple of them in future games...)

Many thanks,
Pelligri

if you have 4-5 food resources in a city and you work them correctly going above size 10 is not difficult.

Specialists are key. You dont win games by not having them on higher levels.

A good great people farm will produce lots of great scientists/ merchants or engineers etc if you plan it. You need wonders, reach certain techs first or specialist to get great people.


For a science city :

The first great scientist can be used for an academy.
2nd/3rd/4th can be added to the city with the academy. (Try this on a river city with flood plains.)
Add a library/university/oxford university and you could be producing over 400+ science beakers a turn from one city. if you build the great library in the city too thats another 2 scientists.

Remember if the great scientist added to your city adds 6 base rate science to a city it gets multiplied up from all the building and academies. So 6 soon becomes 30+ beakers a turn.

I have had games where one city was producing well over half my science.

If you dont use specialists you cant produce great people points that help you create great people.

Try setting up a city early on where you plan to build cottages and has 1-2 food resources. Build a libary and add 2 scientists. In most cases sometimes having 1-2 specialists slowing city growth helps if you are near the happiness cap.

If you want more advice on great people farms there are lots of articles on this here.

Remember: You may not want to use specialist but the Ai certainly will be.

Some of you asked for some saves to better be able to evaluate what I'm doing, and here they are. I would say this is a quite typical game for me. I've played to 500 AD, and I feel it's around here things tend to head for the worse. Changed the build order in city #1 (as recommended by you), and was able to expand a bit more quickly than before (thanks :) )

You have plenty of happiness for your small cities (and still 3 happy resources unconnected) so you should run Representation (+3 science from every specialist), not Hereditary Rule. Your land is too unimproved (for example, gems north to Roskilde are not mined), perhaps you need more workers. Some cities are working with quite poor unimproved tiles while you're in Caste System and could run specialists instead. I'd say switch to rep, get Calendar and Monarcy and connect all happy resources, train couple of more workers, farm your cities and grow them near their happy cap and put some scientists on.