Hello everybody. I wanted to play around with Civilization, and found this slingshot. With it, anyone should be able to slingshot education ~1000 BC, without militarily dominating every other civ into submission early. Let me just first say that this is not a legitimate strategy, there is a huge amount of a risk and a fair amount of luck involved in doing it. However pulling it off is fun and should put you into a very interesting position! :D

As a disclaimer I will say that I am most certainly not the first person to do this, someone must have done it before me. But I didn't rip this off a DaveMcW deity game or anything. :p I was reading an old thread somewhere and someone celebrated pulling off a Civil Service slingshot (back in vanilla) and another person said to tell them when they oracled to Paper. Then another person pointed out that that would require bulbing Theology, and then got me thinking... what if we bulbed paper after that? Clear route to Education!

So how do you pull it off? Well it actually isn't too hard as long as you aren't unlucky. Turns out its very possible, even on Emperor. (the level that I'm comfortable on) It just requires a careful beeline, some fortunate tech trading, and no AI finishing it early! On lower levels its probably less risky, and I'm not even sure if it's possible on Immortal. Leave that for someone else... :king:

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation1.jpg

For this test game, I'm playing Pericles of Arabia. (unrestricted leaders) The difficulty as I said is Emperor, the speed is Epic, and the map is standard-sized Pangaea. (early contact with many other civs is important)

You don't need a very specific combination though, all that's vital is the Philosophical trait. The other trait isn't nearly as important, pick any philo guy you want. Pericles is nice though because Creative gives him cheap libraries, which are a nice bonus for this.

Starting techs are probably the second most important thing, you want good ones to do this as fast as possible. Mining and Mysticism are the most important techs, followed by whatever food resource you got (preferably Agriculture). The UU/UB probably won't be too vital, though the Madrassa's priests can certainly help.

If you want to do this with a regular leader, I would advise Ghandi of Inda. Philosophical, begins with Mysticism/Mining, and the fast worker doesn't hurt! I did this again with him later, he's pretty good.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation2.jpg

Here is the start I chose, reloaded a few times before settling on it. Nothing flashy, no gems or anything. It has a great food resource though and plenty of hills/forests for production, forests are pretty important! Also the city starts on a plains hill, good for getting the first worker out faster. The marble looks nice, but we won't actually be using it all because early Masonry (and the Wheel) won't help us with our beeline!

I chose worker first and teched Agriculture, then Mining and Bronze Working. Even in this crazy game we can't forget the basics! We need food and we certainly need the hammer boost from chopping.

After the worker is complete I begin production on Stonehenge, though focus mostly on city growth for the time being. You have a pretty good shot at getting it, once the corn is farmed start I chopping forests and mining hills!

Bronze Working finishes and I begin the oracle beeline.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation3.jpg

For the record, in the end we're going to need both Meditation and Polytheism. (otherwise the prophet can't bulb theology) In this game I take Med because it's cheaper, but I suppose Poly might be better because you're more likely not to get it in a trade later thanks to the Temple of Artemis.

Also during this time we start meeting our neighbors. They're unrestricted but I didn't specifically pick out any, I think finger picking specific leaders could make this a more secure strategy. We meet the likes of Catherine of Germany, Sitting Bull of the Netherlands, Suleiman of the Vikings... what fun.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation4.jpg

2775 BC and a few chops later and Stonehenge is complete. Don't really need the monuments, we need it for the Great Prophet points! Notice the GP will take 37 turns to come with our philosophical leader.

Not too long later we finish a fairly important tech in our staregy! :p

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation5.jpg

Though it's not for the Oracle... we don't need to get started on that quite yet! You can't build it faster than you can research, hence why marble is not important. The main reason we needed Priesthood right now is to continue teching to Writing, for libraries! No Wheel --> Pottery route needed this game.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation6.jpg

Between finishing Stonehenge and teching Writing, there is a bit of "downtime" where you can build whatever you want. This is a good time to spit out garrisans, explorers, workers and maybe a settler. As you can see here, I chopped out a settler to grab some nearby gold! Even without gold, a decent second city should help speed up research, even in short term. (a second library)

Yes, I settled Medina one space off the coast, but I don't really plan on playing this game into the ADs, very short-term spot. Won't have fishing or sailing anyway. Mostly I wanted the gold and being able to steal Mecca's corn tile for quick growth, I want Medina to grow quickly to be useful.

Also yes there's a road there... but that's because my civilization started with The Wheel. If yours doesn't, don't bother researching it, it'll just slow you down.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation7.jpg

After researching Writing, the next tech to reseach was Alphabet. This is a pretty vital tech and the end of the beeline required for this strategy.... Mysticism --> Med/Poly --> Priesthood --> Writing --> Alphabet. The main reason is that you can't bulb Paper with it out there, and it opens up tech trading. Building research isn't bad either to speed this along, every turn counts as you cross your fingers in the ending stretch.

Also notice that I was able to chop out the Medrassa/Library within the first two turns. Even if you aren't Creative, simple pre-chopping can get it out asap! Three chops should be enough for normal leaders.

As you can see, I didn't really need its priests for the Great Prophet... it was coming up in three turns anyway. If I had finished Stonehenge slower or got Writing quicker it would have been difference, as it was they shaved off one turn from the GP. Could've done that with a scientist anyway without much risk... ah well, no harm done.

Also if you haven't started chopping out the Oracle yet, now would be a good time to do so. :)

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation8.jpg

Great Prophet comes out right on cue! Right now he'll just bulb Polytheism... so I'll save him for later. I quickly change specialists in the city to two scientists. I should get my next great person in 30 turns!

With 6 great scientist points and 2 great prophet points, the odds for the vital great scientist are about 75%... if that isn't good enough for you, make sure you have your second city at size three before writing and pre-chop its library to run two scientists there asap instead, you should still get the Great Scientist before you need him.

At any rate, get those scientist specialists working right away to get Alphabet as soon as possible.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation9.jpg

And there we go, the beeline is over! The oracle is being stored with 1 turn left (it won't decay, don't worry) and I can tech trade. You got to get somewhat lucky here as well, not only do you not want someone to complete the Oracle at this point (I'd advise not trading priesthood around ;) ) but to speed this along you got to hope the AI will be willing and able to trade you certain techs.

Outside of the beeline, to bulb Theology we need Polytheism/Meditation, Masonry, and Monotheism. After Alphabet to bulb Paper we need Mathematics and The Wheel. Our job at this point is to get those techs as soon as possible!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation10.jpg

Lucked out here, usually the AI won't part with Masonry when the Pyramids are still around! Very nice trade. As you can see, I'm researching Polytheism now as no one will give it to me.

Also my civilization began with The Wheel, but if it didn't it would have been very easy to trade for it, that's not an issue.

Also around this point in the game you'll probably want to backfill for techs like Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Iron Working, etc... I didn't in this playthrough, but its a good idea.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation11.jpg

At 75% odds, I get the Great Scientist... whoo, that's a relief! In retrospect I'll definitely want to use the second city for the scientist. Hello there, Alhazen. He'll bulb Mathematics, so he sleeps for now.

My second city doesn't have a madrassa, it's just building research... I have to admit at this point I'm playing kind of sloppy, but I'm in the home stretch. :p

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation12.jpg

Polytheism comes in and I'm able to make this trade, horray. At this point I'm close enough to not really worry about trading away Priesthood, if someone builds it in won't be him. Sitting Bull doesn't build wonders anyway. I can now use the Great Prophet to bulb Theology, and I do so, snagging...

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation13.jpg

Yay, a nice little bonus for doing this whole mess.

No one even had mathematics yet, and even if they did odds are they wouldn't trade it due to the Hanging Gardens. Though if you can luck out and trade alphabet for math... that'll probably seal this whole thing for you.

But not for me. Twelve or so nail-biting turns later, Mathetics completes, allowing my great scientist to do this!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation14.jpg

And the very next turn The Oracle was complete! I got it!!!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation15.jpg

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation16.jpg

4212 free beakers, think I got enough bang for my buck? :lol:

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation18.jpg

My civilization gets to enjoy a Renaissance in 975 BC! How can it be reborn... was there ever a dark age? I was in the medieval era for all of twelve or thirteen turns. ;)

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/OracleEducation19.jpg

The grand achievement, early access to universities! And thanks to the Philosophical trait, they are very reasonably priced for an early empire, same as an aqueduct. Plus I'm sure early Oxford will be very handy! On top of all that, we have founded Christianity, have early shots at the Apostolic Palace, Hagia Sophia and University of Sankore, and can trade maps.

So where would you take a game at this point? Well unfortunately for me I've lost this save file, but if I pull it off again, I'd imagine there are quite a few good options. I'd probably want to try quickly expanding with settlers and using my +25% bonus to rocket ahead in tech... probably start laying down cottages. Plus I've got a bit of a headstart in the liberalism race. :p

Although on the other hand... Gunpowder is now available for research. And after teching/trading Aesthetics and Iron Working, another great scientist can bulb through most of it. I could surprise my opponent's archers and axemen with BC muskets! :trouble:

In fact, imagine doing this with Suleiman. Extremely early Janissaries! +25% vs. Archers, Melee, Mounted! Now that is something I'll have to try out sometime. :)

Hope you've all enjoyed this walkthrough, maybe some others can try it and use early education (or gunpowder) to win the game. Once again though, signifigant risk involved, be prepared to have to regenerate your game if you get unlucky with an AI finishing the Oracle. I got it in my first try though. Certainly fun to pull off on a decently high level, I surprised myself!

975BC is a good enough date for finishing the Oracle I guess. This looks really interesting, thanks. :)

So you're super-high-tech with 2 cities and due to university builds, and you've chopped out your forests for wonders, it'll take forever to build that first "high tech unit".

Uhm, I think you'd really have to cherry-pick your pangea rivals for this to work. If you had Monty as a neighbor that's you all over, as his jaguars dance on the bloody entrails of your super-smart scientists.

Ptreyy cool slingshot there.

Would be fun to see if it is possible to grab lib from Oracle for laughs, though it seems impossible on Emp, you would prolly want to play Noble- to do something liek that, and still need luck...

One solid application of this slingshot to me seems to be in a OCC for the super-early Oxford (followed by a quick grab back for the vital CS). Clearly, you must make significant expansion sacrifices to pull this off, so I don't know if it's normally worth it.

So you're super-high-tech with 2 cities and due to university builds, and you've chopped out your forests for wonders, it'll take forever to build that first "high tech unit".

Uhm, I think you'd really have to cherry-pick your pangea rivals for this to work. If you had Monty as a neighbor that's you all over, as his jaguars dance on the bloody entrails of your super-smart scientists.

I still have many forests left for chopping (11 in capital's BFC), and my capital is an early production powerhouse. Bronze for axes is a possibility in this strategy, and failing that after alphabet I could have easily had archery, iron working and animal husbandry. You can get lots of stuff for trading that around.

True that muskets would still be a while away, not only in unit costs but also to get that second scientist and research the rest of gunpowder. In that time I'd have to churn out units, workers and settlers and settle some of that fine jungle to the north.

One solid application of this slingshot to me seems to be in a OCC for the super-early Oxford (followed by a quick grab back for the vital CS). Clearly, you must make significant expansion sacrifices to pull this off, so I don't know if it's normally worth it.

My early expansion isn't too bad, though on pangaea I am getting boxed in a bit. You still get your second city at 2500 BC, you can spit out a third around 1500 BC (rather than building research) and after the oracle you can start spamming settlers. I think using gunpowder will probably be the best solution, if you have enough production.

OCC is certainly an interesting idea, though I suppose you'd have to stick Pyramids in there... the main problem is that if the AI decides to build the Oracle signifigantly before 1000 BC you're kind of screwed, though you won't be too bad off because with early alphabet you can easily trade back all the techs you missed.

Keep in mind that during this examble, I sort of "shut down" my civilization towards the ending to just get it over with, halting growth and building research. I'll probably try again sometime with more long term plans in mind and see how I do. (won't post another walkthrough here though)

if you only have two cities by that stage, i would say that it is not worth it. however if you have space to expand/isolation, that would be very cool

I still have many forests left for chopping (11 in capital's BFC), and my capital is an early production powerhouse. Bronze for axes is a possibility in this strategy, and failing that after alphabet I could have easily had archery, iron working and animal husbandry. You can get lots of stuff for trading that around.

True that muskets would still be a while away, not only in unit costs but also to get that second scientist and research the rest of gunpowder. In that time I'd have to churn out units, workers and settlers and settle some of that fine jungle to the north.



My early expansion isn't too bad, though on pangaea I am getting boxed in a bit. You still get your second city at 2500 BC, you can spit out a third around 1500 BC (rather than building research) and after the oracle you can start spamming settlers. I think using gunpowder will probably be the best solution, if you have enough production.

OCC is certainly an interesting idea, though I suppose you'd have to stick Pyramids in there... the main problem is that if the AI decides to build the Oracle signifigantly before 1000 BC you're kind of screwed, though you won't be too bad off because with early alphabet you can easily trade back all the techs you missed.

Keep in mind that during this examble, I sort of "shut down" my civilization towards the ending to just get it over with, halting growth and building research. I'll probably try again sometime with more long term plans in mind and see how I do. (won't post another walkthrough here though)

You can make compromises. An early Oxford in a OCC is probably worth more than an early Pyramids. Waiting to actually tech representation yourself is probably not that bad for a OCC anyways. Or id you're lucky and grab stone, you can always just build the pyramids in the time you're waiting to tech writing and alphabet.

Interesting but purely academic. I find it more useful to tech math + code of laws and slingshot Civil Service while burning the GS on an acadamy. Very good on floodplain starts. I sometimes get a 1 AD tech rate of 250 by doing that. Even then though I prefer to take the safe route and slingshot code of laws early (pre 1500 BC) and tech CS manually. Much safer (as in, actually realistic) and only 500 beakers more to beeline. Since cottage- and city growth are the limiting factor in how much beakers/turn you get at 1 AD the tech rates are about the same that way.

And, yes, the second city should work scientists... 25% failure rate on top of the already high failure rate of building the oracle at late dates adds up to unacceptable risk.

Fun read! :)

I think it would be very hard to pull off on immortal as The Oracle usually goes at 1300s at the latest there.

I agree, this is pretty nice... :)

I remember doing something similar with hatty on emperor. Oracle -----> Divine Right :p.

I was able to win, but doing it hurt my position of course. I just war'd for a long time using the religious line as trade bait. Definitely not optimal.

I tired this just for fun on monarch (my usual level) at epic speed. I chose Elizabeth - phi/fin seems ideally suited for this. Unfortunately, I am on a small continent with only Saladin (although Ragnar showed up by boat, so he's nearby somewhere). I was unable to trade for any of the needed techs :cry:, so I had to research them all manually. With a coastal start and 2 seafood, 6 :commerce: really helps the research rate. I was able to get the last tech needed in 775BC and pulled it off. Lots of sacrifices here though: very little room means Saladin rexed the whole island while I was doing this, so it's down to a 2 city challenge. I already have gunpowder, mach, CS and Sal has only feudalism as his top military tech (swords/axes/longbows). It'll be interesting to see where this goes. If I hadn't read about this slingshot, I would have played very differently (copper in the starting BFC :devil: ).

I tired this just for fun on monarch (my usual level) at epic speed. I chose Elizabeth - phi/fin seems ideally suited for this. Unfortunately, I am on a small continent with only Saladin (although Ragnar showed up by boat, so he's nearby somewhere). I was unable to trade for any of the needed techs :cry:, so I had to research them all manually. With a coastal start and 2 seafood, 6 :commerce: really helps the research rate. I was able to get the last tech needed in 775BC and pulled it off. Lots of sacrifices here though: very little room means Saladin rexed the whole island while I was doing this, so it's down to a 2 city challenge. I already have gunpowder, mach, CS and Sal has only feudalism as his top military tech (swords/axes/longbows). It'll be interesting to see where this goes. If I hadn't read about this slingshot, I would have played very differently (copper in the starting BFC :devil: ).

That's why you always play the map and never by a pre-determined strategy. :goodjob:

Some maps are good for this strategy. Many are not.

I think this strategy might actually be playable on a semi-isolated start, say on an archipelago map. If you have your own landmass which you can expand nto at your own leisure, but still have contact with a few civs for trading (contact via island hopping), then it might actually be viable to try this. 2 cities at 1000BC isn't a killer if you can then REX after The Oracle. I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to try something like this.

I remember doing something similar with hatty on emperor. Oracle -----> Divine Right :p.

I was able to win, but doing it hurt my position of course. I just war'd for a long time using the religious line as trade bait. Definitely not optimal.

That's pretty difference with only requiring one bulb and Divine Right sucks. :p I mean sure it's expensive, but it doesn't really give you anything extremely worthwhile to get early.

That's why you always play the map and never by a pre-determined strategy. :goodjob:

Some maps are good for this strategy. Many are not.

To be honest, I'm really surprised this could even be considered a legitimate strategy, which is why I pretty much said it wasn't in the first paragraph. Figured if there was actually something useful to be had here, someone would have already wrote a thread on it before.

I'd say the Gunpowder bulb helps a lot though. Getting boxed in early? Plop out three or so moderately good food/production cities and whip out muskets and catapults and attack someone who doesn't have feudalism yet.

After I finish my current single player game, I'm certainly gonna give this a shot in a long term game, play as Suleiman and see if early B.C. universities and janaissaries can't give me an edge or if it isn't worth the trade-off. :king:

I think the slingshot could be legitimate/possibly optimal(in certain rare circumstances) on lower difficulties. On Emperor+ the uni's don't help too much, because the AIs tech faster so the tech trading makes the increased beaker count not as beneficial, plus early hammers (and hence, other early techs that don't just unlock a 150/300 hammer research building) are more important.

I just tried it and got 2 GSs instead of a GS and GP -- I started running the two library scientists a turn before the first great person was to pop! Plus I got beat to the Oracle, by 2 turns, but the funnier fail was that getting a great scientist on long, long odds screws you over.

That's why you always play the map and never by a pre-determined strategy. :goodjob:

Some maps are good for this strategy. Many are not.

Yeah, I definitely popped the wrong map for this one. :lol: But I just wanted to see if I could do it, and work out the mechanics so that if the right situation did come up I'd know how to take a shot at it. Liz is da bomb, tho - I couldn't believe that I could grab all those techs myself in that short a time. :crazyeye: Financial is overpowered. :cool:

Impressive is all I can say. Even if it is situational this is incredible to get education in 950 BC :p If I am not mistaken entering a new era also gives you a discount on all the other older technologies so this is actually quite a bonus. Now if you can expand from that point to a good empire you are set if you ask me. You just need a settler pump in your second city.

The thing is you don't need Education at 950 bc. You're not likely to have 6 cities let alone cities developed enough to build universities even as philosophical.
I see it more as a standalone gambit that you would do for fun, if you were using this strategy while playing to win that would be insane given the high risk of failure and the costs. :)

But imagine this in an OCC, then it would really give a headstart. University and Oxford before 1 AD. :)

But imagine this in an OCC, then it would really give a headstart. University and Oxford before 1 AD. :)

It's not really worth. +25% and +100%, but you must have something to multiply. It costs you 2 great persons. I prefer to have Representation+Academy+settled scientist.

I see it more as a standalone gambit that you would do for fun, if you were using this strategy while playing to win that would be insane given the high risk of failure and the costs.

if you have a natural blocking position, or one achievable with 2 cities(sh does the 3rd border pop fast so you can actually make a blocking line of up to 10 tiles on one axis) it actually looks very interesting imho. Though I'd say it's high risk on emperor to lose oracle.

Yeap, Emperor is the limit for this strategy, and it's probably a 50-50 chance that it will work. On the other hand, in my EMC II game the Pyramids weren't built by the time I took Nationalism from Liberalism. I'm not even sure they were built by the end of the last round (1100AD). :)

Given that the Madrassa wasn't really useful here and the Camel Archers aren't really on the path of the bulb, what would be other good civs or leaders to try this with? Keeping the unrestricted leaders option, of course. I can see going for this with Korea (for Seowons), Ethiopia (for the free Steles and Oromos) or the Native Americans (resourceless axeman for barb defense).

As for leaders, Lincoln could be great (Cha - happiness from monuments, Phi), Liz and Gandhi of course, Alex (Agg - cheap barracks + Combat I for melee + Theocracy could be cool) and Suleiman (Imp - spam settlers once the beeline's done). So pretty much anyone Philosophical except Fred (what's Org good for if you have a couple of cities?), Sitting Bull (Pro? meh) and Peter (I don't see Exp helping).

Suleiman for ultra early Jans. He can have Gunpowder before 1AD

- research CoL, bulb Phil, bulb Lib, take Gunpowder
- research Gunpowder directly

Suleiman for ultra early Jans. He can have Gunpowder before 1AD

- research CoL, bulb Phil, bulb Lib, take Gunpowder
- research Gunpowder directly

Gunpowder needs education or guilds

very cool tactic pulled off there. appreciate the post.

I guess he was talking about what happens after the beeline, which already gives you Education.

teching out gunpowder only takes 60 or so turns on epic after this gambit, since you'll have bulbed theo and paper and have math/alphabet, you can pretty much just tech it directly and backfill techs with trading.

It would be very possible to take out far larger empires with Jans. If you manage to get 5 cities by the time you can build them. The worst you'll encounter are LBs, so only a few could do the job (a supermedic would be great to maximise survival) remember, +25% vs. archer melee and mounted, add combatI+cover to some, drillI+schock to some and combatII+formation, and your stack would be untouchable to anything pre-knights, and even those would struggle to kill one.

Gunpowder can also be bulbed with another Great Scientist, if you get Aesthetics and Iron Working out of the way and don't research Code of Laws/Drama and open up Philosophy. (obviously you won't want to delay CoL for long, so you'll need to get the GS somewhat quickly) Won't completely bulb it, but should get most of it.

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great... but if you can get some at an AI that doesn't have feudalism yet, you've got something there. They usually seem to pick it up around 300 - 500 AD in my games, so if you can build muskets in BC try to attack a civ that doesn't have monarchy yet.

And Janaissaries are something else altogether, those should just be awesome.

Edit: Also the early Gunpowder aspect of this thing was something I didn't even realize until like halfway through writing it, which is why my leader wasn't set to take advantage of that.

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great...

I love having musketeers along with a late-medieval stack, but mostly as field combat units or terrain defenders. The city raiders are still the CR3 macemen, after trebs have done their work. Longbow, schmongbow...

Muskets also help in keeping a city after the macemen have taken it--I like having 1 or 2 CG2 musketeers for the 1st or 2nd city conquest when sometimes an AI has a retake stack built up specifically to demolish any stacks geared purely for offense (which are vulnerable in garrisoning a taken city otherwise).

Gunpowder can also be bulbed with another Great Scientist, if you get Aesthetics and Iron Working out of the way and don't research Code of Laws/Drama and open up Philosophy. (obviously you won't want to delay CoL for long, so you'll need to get the GS somewhat quickly) Won't completely bulb it, but should get most of it.

Musketmen versus longbows aren't that great... but if you can get some at an AI that doesn't have feudalism yet, you've got something there. They usually seem to pick it up around 300 - 500 AD in my games, so if you can build muskets in BC try to attack a civ that doesn't have monarchy yet.

And Janaissaries are something else altogether, those should just be awesome.

Edit: Also the early Gunpowder aspect of this thing was something I didn't even realize until like halfway through writing it, which is why my leader wasn't set to take advantage of that.

Not just jannisaries (which would totally rock), but anyone with a musket UU would do well. Even musketeer with their extra move would be useful, getting a strong, early 2 move unit.

@Josh,

If you get IW and block CoL, scientists will go to naval route. Sailing/Compass/Calendar/MC/Machinery/Optics/Astronomy. Just forget about bulbing Gunpowder, bulb Liberalism instead

@ UWH,

Yes, but Philosophical leader is mandatory. Of course, if you play unrestricted. something like Alex from Ethiopia, would rock too.


EDIT: Gunpowder bulb could work if you don't research Fishing and Pottery

What would be the optimal tech/bulb/trade path for early Gunpowder? That'd be pretty interesting.

What would be the optimal tech/bulb/trade path for early Gunpowder? That'd be pretty interesting.

Probably the education route/liberalism if you don't want to cripple yourself with esoteric bulb nonsense of the bottom path and want to rex a decent city count to actually do something with it. You can get down that way pretty fast, too.

Probably the education route/liberalism if you don't want to cripple yourself with esoteric bulb nonsense of the bottom path and want to rex a decent city count to actually do something with it. You can get down that way pretty fast, too.

That's along the lines that I was thinking. However, bulbing speeds this process along quite a bit. I, however, have a very poor grasp of the Tech Tree in regards to what is availible (and when) when bulbing (as an ex: Lib can be bulbed, as long as you don't tech Machinery, in which case you have to go through PP), and was wondering what the optimal route would be with bulbs mixed in, and with avoiding techs that would close off the quicker bulb paths.

The bottom path is pretty obnoxious.

With alpha/math and the pre-reqs for philosophy, you will bulb philo.

With paper available, it's hard NOT to have that as your option.

Education is a GS's #1 bulb priority. If you can research it, it will bulb.

As you mentioned, having metal casting/aesthetics (I think you need aesthetics IIRC) and not machinery will get you lib as a bulb.

So the requirements for bulbing toward lib aren't demanding at all! Just a couple scientists and basic research/trade. This is part of the reason it's popular---> free techs are powerful, lib itself is pretty good, and the path offers a lot of trade potential.

Gunpowder can of course be had instantly after that, if you so choose.

The english, greek, american, and native american civs all start with fishing, which really complicates the GS bulb path.:cry: They're some of the best philosophical leaders in the game, too.

I've played this strat a couple of times, and it's pretty easy to get edu with Liz by 700-900BC as long as the oracle doesn't fall before then. That said, I'd never use it in a "real" game unless the stars aligned just right. There are just too may compromises:

- it's a big gamble waiting that long for the oracle.
- I have yet to be able to find an AI willing to trade any of the needed early techs by the time I get alpha.
- you have to give up a lot to make it work (only 2 or 3 early cities, to keep the :science: rate from tanking, giving up production/whipping in order to run scientists, etc).
- universities really don't get you very much at that point in time, and they are expensive to build.

That said, I'm considering using modifications of this path - in particular the bulbing aspect. I'd probably take CS from oracle, use the prophet to bulb theo, then bulb out paper/edu with GSs while backfilling MC/mach for early maces/xbows.

I think you mean take CS from Oracle. :)

As for leaders/civs, you could try unrestricted leaders. I haven't played with that option too much, but it can make for some fun games from time to time.

I tried to do this last night in a OCC with Lincoln of the Ottomans (I wanted charismatic to get the extra happy, since I wouldn't be researching stuff like hunting or monarchy, so the +2 happy helped, and I wanted a Janissary rush before 1AD).

And in the end, I was within 4 turns of getting it. I had forgotten the exact path, so I ended up researching alphabet last, so I couldn't trade to backfill. If doing it again, I think if I researched alphabet first thing after writing, I may have been able to do it (at least I would have saved the few turns to research meditation, and maybe I could have done a lopsided deal for mathematics). I didn't play on, but it wasn't so bad, since I 3 religions founded. Although I was a little worried when I noticed my 2 closest neighbours were Montezuma (eek) and Alex. Luckily Monty didn't get a religion, so I made friends with him by using my Christian missionary to convert him, but having my 1 warrior for protection was cutting it a bit risky...

Concerning Gunpowder pre-enemy feudalism, I once tried starting out on an island map as Ethiopia where I had a superb start, some seafood spiced with gold, silver, gems, perhaps 5 all in all, spread on 3-4 cities. Went directly for Gunpowder while producing some galleys. When I took the battle to Wang he didn't even have Monarchy yet. He used archers and managed to get a single Hwacha out before dying. Needless to say, I ruled the game so much that the lan-mate I was playing with (Ragnar, did okay), was so bored we decided to quit. That was on Prince, I think, though.

I've had a number of games at prince/monarch where I'm teching all the religious techs and getting the Oracle. At that point it's possible to take Theology. The next GP (which comes along fairly quickly - since I usually build Stonehenge in the same city) and can bulb paper. This is one tech below education and at this level is easy to do. I thought it was unusual, but didn't bother to try and capitalize on it as it was so many turns to education etc. But maybe it could be a pretty good slingshot strategy. I don't know if it would work on emperor.

I should point out that this was in Warlords.

I think you mean take CS from Oracle. :)


Yup. :lol: Corrected it.

Yup. :lol: Corrected it.

Man, when I finished the entire opening post and went through it rechecking everything, I caught my thread title as Just For Fun: Liberalism --> Education Slingshot @ Emperor. Now that would have been embarrassing. :lol:

Yeah not impossble on normal speed either but since i forgot to turn off oracle i dont know if i would have got it at 500 bc when my scientist came around... and i had no god techers around.. joao and boudica(grr) luckily budd hidu antagonists and fplains, gold and fants to speed things without building research and lucky trades, playing liz makes me wonder if not a lib path pushing for early and i mean super early redcoats is in order.

im definitely giving this a try at the moment, with zara yaqob.

I "almost" succeeded at my first try, only if i bulbed theology it woulda worked!

since zara isn't philo, I definitely need some luck getting out a great prophet, I would say with about 60% chance. Since Zara got a monument UB, getting stonehenge is quite beneficial as well!

The best part? Oroman warriors!!!!!
My first try on this, I was able to get about 4 cities running, and still had some space to settle, so I'd say this is a doable strategy even when I'm aiming for victory. If I can get out a good stack of oroman, I can basically stomp AI's so fast, it will feel like cheating!

omg I gotta make this happen soooon

im definitely giving this a try at the moment, with zara yaqob.

I "almost" succeeded at my first try, only if i bulbed theology it woulda worked!

since zara isn't philo, I definitely need some luck getting out a great prophet, I would say with about 60% chance. Since Zara got a monument UB, getting stonehenge is quite beneficial as well!

The best part? Oroman warriors!!!!!
My first try on this, I was able to get about 4 cities running, and still had some space to settle, so I'd say this is a doable strategy even when I'm aiming for victory. If I can get out a good stack of oroman, I can basically stomp AI's so fast, it will feel like cheating!

omg I gotta make this happen soooon

Try unrestricted leaders, enjoy the Ethiopian civ's benefits (monument UU, oromos) with Elizabeth or Alexander.

If you want to do this with a non-philo leader you'll need Arabia or Egypt (early priest specialists) and even then it'll probably only work on lower levels due to taking much longer on the GS.

I love this one, best "New Move" I have seen in a LONG time, since BurN taught me the ol "Oracle --> MC --> Forge, Pop a GE for Mids with a PHI leader" trick.

Well done Joshua, well done indeed!

I just tried this with Ghandi/Emporer/Shuffle map.

I missed by 8 turns, but I was isolated and so couldn't trade. i would have made it in the shade except that I ran scientists in Delhi to speed up all the research I had to do, and I popped a second Great Priest at 35%. I did bulb Code of Laws with that one for my third religion in my second city (Judaism, Theo, Con), but that added a extra few turns to the scientist for my second city. Both Alphabet and my scientist were due in 7 turns when Oracle was built in a foreign land. On the 7th turn I get Alphabet, bulb Paper, on the 8th turn I would have Oracle'ed Education in isolation.

I got all 7 religions with Gandhi once in isolation, it was his LHC, actually. Monarch level, so it wasnt too difficult. Never finished that game (it was a replay, I lost the first real attempt because I founded Hinduism, and the AIs were all Buddhists when I finally met them, and blew it baddly).

I just tried this with Ghandi/Emporer/Shuffle map.

I missed by 8 turns, but I was isolated and so couldn't trade. i would have made it in the shade except that I ran scientists in Delhi to speed up all the research I had to do, and I popped a second Great Priest at 35%. I did bulb Code of Laws with that one for my third religion in my second city (Judaism, Theo, Con), but that added a extra few turns to the scientist for my second city. Both Alphabet and my scientist were due in 7 turns when Oracle was built in a foreign land. On the 7th turn I get Alphabet, bulb Paper, on the 8th turn I would have Oracle'ed Education in isolation.

Did you actually go through with bulbing Paper?

Because I considered the possibility of bulbing Code of Laws for caste system and fast scientists, but I would think opening up Philosophy would usurp the Paper bulb. (meditation being required for theo bulb)

Did you actually go through with bulbing Paper?

Because I considered the possibility of bulbing Code of Laws for caste system and fast scientists, but I would think opening up Philosophy would usurp the Paper bulb. (meditation being required for theo bulb)

No, I stopped the game at that point, it was an experiment.

Actually I tried 2 more times, got nowhere close in those games. I think the strategy is dependent upon having a precious metal in first or second city. And having Rameses in the game pretty much fails the gambit.

I actually had another thought - after bulbing CoL I could have run Caste and scientist-starve my second city. Probably couldn't get 2 scientists though to bulb Philo AND Paper in time. But would have made a 4-shrine city!

I actually had another thought - after bulbing CoL I could have run Caste and scientist-starve my second city. Probably couldn't get 2 scientists though to bulb Philo AND Paper in time. But would have made a 4-shrine city!

Maybe, if you have a really high food capital and high happy cap, (charismatic?) expecially since Philosophy will give you pacifism for even faster GSs.

But that's four bulbs before the Oracle -- Theology, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Paper. Probably a bit too crazy! :p All that's left are two more GSs to bulb Education and there goes your Oracle to Liberalism slingslot! On Warlord or Noble maybe. :king:

It just seems so tough. I tried, but Qin built the oracle quite early. I tried getting "pure" GP, and instead of building stonehenge, beelining priesthood and getting a temple in to run a priest, then once he pops, run the 2 scientists. Then I was at least assured of 100% which GP to get.

The keys that I see are:
1. No industrious leaders - I had De Gaulle build it in one game, Qin in another.
2. Especially, no industrious leader who likes to play with religion.
3. High tech rate - you need to research these things ASAP. In the game this was done in, that second city with a gold and building research certainly helps.
4. Opponents with the right techs - in the original post, trading for monarchy and meditation are crucial. Even if it only takes 4 turns to research those, that's getting up there. I think if you looked in the original game, you'd find someone else was getting close to it.

Perhaps I will try again. But it's still something that really screws you up if you fail.

The only key that I can really see is:

Make sure the map agrees with this slingshot.

If you've got Ramesses II and Louis XIV as your neighbors on Emperor difficulty, why would you do this strategy? Build up your military and conquer them while they build wonders for you.

JUST FOR FUN 2: Gunpowder in BCs @ Immortal (and how useless it is :p)

Okay and now that I have your attention I finally finished my last game and decided to boot up this theme again, to see what would happen if I did this with Suleiman and if I could manage to get his Janassiry unit online before the ADs rolled around, and hopefully catch a civ before feudalism.

Also for some reason I was feeling particularly suicidal so I decided to do this on Immortal. :lol: While I've had successes at Immortal I'm certainly not comfortable there and I know its not really a difficulty level where you can screw around. I figured when I spectacularly failed, I'd just try again at Emperor. However, in what I will readily admit was an extreme stroke of luck, I got it on my first try, whee!

Not too many screenshots this time around, sorry. Settings, settings... mostly the same as the OP game. Pangaea, Epic, random opponents, though not unrestricted this time. Other than that, this time I have goody huts and random events off. (didn't want to get screwed over, though admittedly location and AIs affect luck much more than these) And signifigantly hurting my civ conscience, I turned barbarians off. Feels cheap, but without getting copper within your first two cities you're sort of screwed otherwise. :mischief: Reloaded a few times to get a decent agriculture resource + forest + hills start, with nothing spectatular. (threw away a 2 corn + 2 gold + floodplains start :cry: )

First things first, I pulled off the slingshot. Here you can see how sad my time was... this was a late Oracle. Usually on Immortal its gone around 1300 BC!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/GunpowderBC1-1.jpg

Even though I was able to trade for Meditation, Masonry and Mono, it was slowed down somewhat from my first game due to a subpar second city (at size four I couldn't run both nessecary scientists and work the gold without losing food, its best food tile was a farmed floodplain, so the gold was on-and-off) and a third city that wasn't immediately useful -- I was Imperialistic, I couldn't resist the cheap settler.

Also look at the AI civs, that's how I did it. I didn't pre-select them, but not an industrious guy amoungst them. To compensate though, I am being boxed in by Kublai Khan, Gilgamesh, and Isabella, so its not exactly a cake walk! :lol:

Note that I did improve my technique a little though... my capital only ran one scientist, so my second city was able to outrun it with two and my GS had 100% odds rather than a questionable 75%. Didn't really slow things down too much really.



Okay, so that's that. Now what. Well, my expansion was hurt and I was getting boxed in. Getting to enjoy Gunpowder early enough for it to matter was no easy feat, it costs twice the beakers as Paper! So what to do? Get another GS to bulb it! Alphabet and Theology make for good trade bait, I had traded for Iron Working, Monarchy, Currency, Metal Casting... slowly teched Aesthetics. Aest and IW had to be teched to open up the Gunpowder bulb, and I could not trade for Fishing or Pottery. Granaries were missed, but I avoided the coast and no cottages wasn't so bad, I was running an adequate specialist economy.

So I started building workers and settlers to expand before all these AIs cut me off, some nice juicy jungles yet to claimed to the north and things weren't looking too bad, really...

And then Kublai Khan went ahead and declared on me, gah! :rolleyes: I had missed him going into WHEOOHRN. He had a surprisingly small stack of like three axes and some archers. He halted my expansion and really hurt my research... fortunately I had iron hooked up though. He managed to capture my second city, but I immediately recaptured it and shortly afterwards was able to get peace for mono. My cities were then weak from capture (lost my library :cry: ) and emergency whipping, and I lost several precious turns off of my goal.

Also I was hoping to get my second GS from my second city, but made a slight miscalculation... forgot about the Oracle's GP points. :mischief: So my capital got my next great person, very fortunately it was a GS at around 60% odds. Otherwise it would have been delayed a little bit longer until my fourth great person.

After bulbing, there was still a signifigant amount of beakers left! Took about as long as aesthetics did to finish. But I did it!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/GunpowderBC2.jpg

200 BC... much later than I would have hoped. Also I was boxed in with only four cities, though I could have had several more if it weren't for certain... distractions. Also at this time the smarter AIs were just getting feudalism, so much for a super advantage!

I don't think I would have been too much better off without Kublai though... immortal AI simply expands and techs way too fast for a wacky strategy to work. Monarch, sure, and maybe Emperor, but here it really isn't viable.

(Also I'm still in the war in that screenshot... maybe the new crazy superweapon helped persuade KK to take peace :king: )



Okay, so I pretty much was tired of the game as this point, but I wanted to at least try to use these guys in the field. Since I was so late the pressure was on... and janaisarries are somewhat expensive at 120 epic hammers. Though they aren't quite as bad as you might think... with a decent hammer capital and generous chopping and whipping I was able to get a meager force to play with against my fairly backward neighbor isabella.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq299/JoshuaCiv/GunpowderBC3.jpg

Okay, so they aren't miracle workers. Note that I have Combat II from barracks + theocracy. Still, 70% odds versus a fortified City Garrisan I archer on a walled hill city with 60% cultural defense is not bad! With a few sacrifical catapults to weaken them up and some cheap mop-up units/garrisans this could possibly work on a lower level. Oh, and marathon would help a ton.

I also found out they have 99% odds against Keshiks on open ground which is pretty nifty. :goodjob:

So in closing, it was fun, but not really a good strategy I can recommend. Don't try this at home folks, at least not on immortal! It will probably not end well. Maybe it'll work better on emperor... and I'm fairly confident it could actually be useful on monarch and below. Still something I had to try out and I'm glad I did.

This could very well work on a map where you can succesfully block the AI from settling a piece of land with only 3 cities. Pangea seems best for this slingshot because you can trade for your missing tech easier, but for it to work as a strategy, maybe you need some luck ok a fractal map and end up on a peninsula.

I tried this on monarch the other day and got just that. By 400 AD I had 7 cities and education (didn't go for the gunpowder, couldn't bulb it) but in that situation, just plonking down cites as fast as possible after education, building barracks and getting some jannisairies might work. You could pretty much stop teching and go for a jan+pults conquest/domination at that point, since you can trade alot of backfilling techs with this beeline.

PS. As the only unit that will stand up to jans in that period will be a defending archery unit, why not go for combat1+cover, it would give far better results than combat2.

Well, C1+cover is only very marginally better. Taking the numbers from above, C2 you get 10.8 vs. 8.4 (R=1.285), but if you take C1 and cover, you're at 9.9 vs. 7.65 (1.294). Unless if you just barely hit a jump point in attacking, it's probably the difference between 71.6% and 72.5% or something like that.

Plus half of Issy's defenders were melee, cover wouldn't have helped too much. (in fact, the best city defender there was an axeman, which one jan already took care of)

if you really want to mess around slingshot Liberalism with the Oracle. I have done it on Monarch but can't get it any higher than that.

Given that education is more expensive than liberalism i really don't see a reason for doing that... With over 200% bonus combat outperform cover anyways...

there is no reason. the whole point is you get a tech that gives you another tech.

just messin around with game mechanics.

if you want it to be usefull for something then play as a philisophocal leader and oracle Lib, then use Lib to Pick Biology or communism.

there is no reason. the whole point is you get a tech that gives you another tech.

just messin around with game mechanics.

if you want it to be usefull for something then play as a philisophocal leader and oracle Lib, then use Lib to Pick Biology or communism.

Education would still make that faster ----> you could sink bulbs into the cheaper liberalism (just don't trade for machinery), while oracle would still yield edu instantly...although taking either of those would require a lot of pre-reqs you'd likely not have the base research to get before completing oracle anyway, and edu would help you clear them too...

Nice slingshot, hmm I wonder if in the lull after stonehenge one could chop out say 3 settlers and build workers in new cities... Looks like I have to try this one out on Monarch(Me is no emperor yet)