Hey,
First post!! I want to add that these boards have been a great help to my game. Some specific questions.

I play on noble/epic and win 100% of the time and should have moved up a while ago. In the early game I never go for a religion. I usually beeline math, then currency and then col. My rationale being that I can get more cities going. But I hate the fact that they are size 5. Should I go for monarchy first?

Next, I have really bought into the city specialization idea. But one self-imposed drawback is that I dont run specialists until I find an ideal GP farm rather late in the game. Even if the capital is high food I use it to pump out workers/settlers. Am I really missing out by not having early GP.

Next, do you farm grassland pre-biology? I just find the one extra food not worth the effort even if I am under the happy cap. The added growth doesnt seem worth it inless the only food source is plains cow. I rather be working cottages and mines.

It depends.

Enough :) to work good tiles is #1 priority. If you don't have mids or a lot of :) resources/cha etc, then you have to evaluate whether you're going to be able to trade for monarchy. If you can't, tech it. 5 extra pop in every city is worth way more at first.

Now, if you went that route CoL may be easier next, but currency gives higher returns in the BCs usually. So again, this is going to depend on the situation. Currency is a more popular AI tech so you're more likely to be able to trade CoL (which after the religion is founded, other AIs won't prioritize). CoL is also a pre-req for the powerful Civil Service, so I'd lean that way if you're in doubt.

Don't forget the option of Pyramids for Hereditary Rule.

Normally if you're going to pursue mids over other options in the first place, you have enough :) to live in rep, otherwise they're usually not worth it.

However, I left my reply above deliberately ambiguous, simply saying "mids" without mention of civic. The key is :). However, it is very, very rare that you'd want to build mids for HR...you give up a lot to get them only to use them for a civic that you can tech pretty easily.

Especially for a new post (btw, welcome to the forums takusan!), I'd not advise building the pyramids for HR, or even at all as they can turn into a builder's death-crutch.

Hey,
First post!!

Hi, and welcome to civfanatics! :)

But I hate the fact that they are size 5.

There are some articles in the war academy about how to get more happiness. Off the top of my head, for the early game:
- religion, temples
- resources
- hereditary rule
- representation (pyramids)

Don't forget buildings that give additional happiness like forges and markets for example. But you have to have the resources for those anyway, that's why I don't include them here.


Next, I have really bought into the city specialization idea. But one self-imposed drawback is that I dont run specialists until I find an ideal GP farm rather late in the game. Even if the capital is high food I use it to pump out workers/settlers. Am I really missing out by not having early GP.

GPs can give you quite a boost. However they are more useful on higher difficulties, where bulbing can net you lots of techs by trading a monopoly tech to several AIs. Settled GPs are also better if you also have the Pyramids and run Representation. Otherwise I wouldn't go out of my way to run specialists early on. As you said worker/settler production is more important.


Next, do you farm grassland pre-biology?

Sometimes, depends on terrain. If your food resources aren't enough to work all the hills for example, you might want to add some grassland mines. No need to limit a monster production city just because you have to work some additional farms. Other cases are growing fast enough when your happiness level is high (say you grow at +2 food/turn in a cottage-filled city; wouldn't you add a couple of farms to double that growth rate? you can turn them into cottages afterwards) or when you want faster recovery from whipping (again, cottage city with low production could use some farms to get it back to happiness cap after whipping).

As for Monarchy or Currency/CoL: if you have only a few city sites with good terrain and not much extra happiness you're better off growing your cities through Hereditary Rule. If on the other hand you want to expand a lot you'll spend lots of time building settlers/workers while stagnating growth anyway, and you'll need the extra commerce from Currency's trade routes and CoL's courthouses. Chances are in this case you'll also pick up additional happiness resources and you can live with those until you get Monarchy in a trade or you self research it.

Welcome to the Forums takusan. :beer:

Next, I have really bought into the city specialization idea. But one self-imposed drawback is that I dont run specialists until I find an ideal GP farm rather late in the game. Even if the capital is high food I use it to pump out workers/settlers. Am I really missing out by not having early GP.

One advantage of early GP is that they'll get you all of the technology when bulbing or all of the build finish (GE's) in the early game. And if you're settling them the over-all return is greater in that they're producing :culture:, :commerce:, :hammers: & :science: for more turns.

You don't have to wait until you have the ideal site before you set up a GP farm.

Perhaps the best advantage in specialization is that you're not wasting hammers building stuff in cities where you'll only get minimal return. An example would be if you had a great production city where there's very little :commerce: production. Building a bank there would be a waste, since all banks do is multiply :commerce:.

You don't have to wait until you have the ideal site before you set up a GP farm. Right. You should have one city running a couple of scientists as soon as you discover Writing. There is absolutely no downside to moving your GP farm when better locations become available.

Especially for a new post (btw, welcome to the forums takusan!), I'd not advise building the pyramids for HR, or even at all as they can turn into a builder's death-crutch.

On lower levels I'd gotten addicted to 'mids for the GEs and popping absolutely useless wonders out. All kinds of pride at having built stuff and ...not winning many games, lol.

If all things were pretty equal and there wasn't a compelling reason otherwise, I would probably go the currency/col route. The economy is so important for anything else that you're trying to do.:xmastree:

Monarchy is "generally" much better, unless you already have a high happy cap(I'd say 7-8 at least) Courthouses are quite expensive early on, markets even more so. Hereditary rule is a no/low-cost economy booster. Then instead of courthouses you can build more settlers or military and expand more, at which point you'll have code of laws/market and can focus on stabilizing your economy.

If I'm boxed in or if my axe rush isn't going well, I'll go Monarchy first, and as long as I get Monarchy I keep at it to grab Feudalism for LBs.

If I'm rapidly expanding in a game, with little resistance (little WW to address via HR police units in cities), then currency/CoL becomes more important.

Monarchy's really easy to trade for, one of the few techs AIs will part with in isolation. If I desperately need happiness I'll go for it (often calendar is more immediately useful, but not always) but in most of my games I can get it in a trade soon enough with code of laws or aesthetics.

if you're looking for happiness, check my signature (it's the article from the war academy carl corey mentionned).
basically, you want to grow fast either vertically (meaning bigger cities) or horizontally (meaning more cities), and in most situations in both ways.
That means that you should pump out settlers (and workers! lots of) to settle the happy and helthy resources you need.
And for this I favor going for currency->Col which lets you :
-get more $ to fund the numerous cities (currency is THE $ tech, allowing you to build cash, to trade for cash, + giving you the option of building a market in addition to 1 more trade route)
- allows building the market which is also a good happy building (it's 1 building I often whip for in fast growing cities)

If all things were pretty equal and there wasn't a compelling reason otherwise, I would probably go the currency/col route. The economy is so important for anything else that you're trying to do.:xmastree:

:) source > CoL or early trade routes. The only exception is the ability to trade something like CoL for monarchy.

You'll know in advance when you can/can't.

Seriously, CoL or currency with a very low :) cap isn't helpful at all.

I like Monarchy in games where I can clearly see the advantage of working 8 or 9 tiles in at least three cities in the BCs. This is pretty rare, however. I'd have to be in some sort of spectacular river covered grassland territory with many cottages just waiting to be worked. Normally, if my cities start to go past the happy cap, I just whip away the complainers. There's always a library, barracks, or granary that needs to go up around that time of the game.

Therefore, I usually wait until I can trade for monarchy and go for either CoL or Currency depending on which one will give me the most bang for the buck. If there's a good reason for me to want the religion, or if I am organized and get half price courthouses, I'll probably go for CoL first. If I'm getting a lot of good returns from trade routes (say lots of costal cities and the potential for the Great Lighthouse) it would be currency all the way. If there's a clear trade market for one over the other, that would also influence my choice.

Seriously, CoL or currency with a very low :) cap isn't helpful at all.

As Cabert illustrated, the expansion where CoL or currency would be needed to keep the economy afloat, should also address the :) cap via resources.

Of course you want to expand into land that has such resources, rather than settle cities that all bring in the same crap you already have (with the exception of ideal spots for specialized cities like a moai location or a sweet GP farm, etc.)

As Cabert illustrated, the expansion where CoL or currency would be needed to keep the economy afloat, should also address the :) cap via resources.


Quite hard to do that without calendar at times. And sometimes even then. But if you are researching Calendar for happiness, might as well research monarchy for happiness.

It is quite easy for some early cities to get to size 10, if they have multiple food resources. I say working an extra 4 cottages, in a city where you already a library, is more beneficial economically. Or, alternatively, you could slave a lot more. Happiness = hammers or commerce, early on, making it more versatile than courthouses, which simply reduce money. The market can be a happiness boon 'if' you actually have more than one of the resources for it, but regardless, I still think it is so expensive, I'd rather build 2 more settlers, with cities supported by my size 10 cities with 6 cottages.

It depends on the difficulty level. In SP on high levels it's usually better to trade for monarchy and research something else yourself. As mentioned by Joshua368, monarchy (just like alphabet) isn't affected by the monopoly thing where AIs won't trade a tech until X amount of civs know it. As a result you can trade for monarchy very early most of the time. CoL is usually a very good tech to trade with as priesthood opens up monarchy and it can be used to obtain alphabet as well.

On lower difficulties monarchy can be much better. The research speed is slower so you'll get trouble with happiness before any AIs obtain it -- the wait is too long.

The presence of nearby resources can dictate it too. I've gone for...metal casting as high as immortal due to the returns I got from having gold/gems or gold/silver (or especially all 3). Whether its likely you get religion (that you can run without getting jumped on) is a factor also (CoL can take care of that partially if you're sure you'll found it and are isolated/on a continent with no religion).

I was just saying generally :) > other things in the early game for economy. Yes, if you can research something and trade for monarchy, do it. As long as you're not near toku or other idiot nonsense or super duper worst enemies etc. on higher difficulties self-researching monarchy doesn't make much sense...however getting it as a priority one way or another usually still does.

Monarchy. Best by test, Diety and lower.

Lately, I've appreciated the value of teching Currency, not only for its boost on trade routes, but also its discount on Code of Laws.

If you're not unlucky, you'll probably be able to trade Currency for Monarchy.

Monarchy. Best by test, Diety and lower.

Thus the correct answer is currency/CoL by principle. :)

Honestly the point at which I get Monarchy based on how fast my cities are growing (assuming I don't get pyramids for Representation) and when they need the happiness bump

Or simply because I have a few wine tiles and I'm sick of them being unworked.

Monarchy for production and a bureaucracy capital.
Code of laws for trade value.

talking about happiness from markets
Quite hard to do that without calendar at times. And sometimes even then. But if you are researching Calendar for happiness, might as well research monarchy for happiness.

This doen't seem right.
Markets double the happiness of :
-ivory
-fur
-silk
-whales
2 of those are available with hunting.
It is quite easy for some early cities to get to size 10, if they have multiple food resources. I say working an extra 4 cottages, in a city where you already a library, is more beneficial economically. Or, alternatively, you could slave a lot more. Happiness = hammers or commerce, early on, making it more versatile than courthouses, which simply reduce money. The market can be a happiness boon 'if' you actually have more than one of the resources for it, but regardless, I still think it is so expensive, I'd rather build 2 more settlers, with cities supported by my size 10 cities with 6 cottages.
true enough.
But very often you get better spots with early settlers.

takusan,

This is a big "It depends" question. I won't say either one is right, because I know I have a very different playstyle than most.

I tend to avoid the religious techs until absolutely necessary. Even then I try to back-trade for them, and don't always have a choice of what's immediately available. As a result, I won't get Monarchy until much after Metal Casing and even Bureaucracy sometimes. Though it is more typical for me to go Worker Tech->Writing->Mathamatics->Aesthetics->Literature->Drama->Music*->Currency->Code Of Laws

Depends on difficulty level. If I know I'm going to get the free GA, I'll go for it and use him to bulb Theology. If I already have a religion I want, I'll let someone else discover Christianity first, otherwise I'll bee-line Monarch at this point so that I can bulb Theology then go back to Currencey->Col

I usually avoid Monarchy and manage my happiness through other means, typically though aggressive settling. It is not uncommon for me to have over a dozen cities by 1ad, which makes Currency an instant 12-36 extra commerce per turn.

Also remember that bigger cities mean more maintenance. This is okay if you plan on working at least 1 extra commerce approximately every city size growth to keep a 50% Gold parity.

Another part of this depends on what's around you. Do you have more room to settle? Are you on an offensive? Or are you locked down to your empire already? I know that on Emperor and above I've seen the AI lock me down to only 2 or 3 cities as early as 2000-1000BC. In this case Monarchy would be the superior choice. However if I had 15 coastal cities and TGL pre 1AD, then Currency would be the obvious choice.

It's all about what's going on around you, and your currency empire's economic situation.

talking about happiness from markets

This doen't seem right.
Markets double the happiness of :
-ivory
-fur
-silk
-whales
2 of those are available with hunting.

true enough.
But very often you get better spots with early settlers.

Markets is 150 hammers.. That is quite a lot for a small city. Building markets for just 2 happiness is 5 times as expensive as just building warriors under hrule... Markets is a very poor building and should only be built in cities that give you at least 20 gold on average(so with a slider of 60% a city would need to produce 50+ commerce or have a market, or of course in a city with a shrine or a HQ) for it to be worth building it before most other things... Not to mention that by the time you complete the market you can be 9 pop bigger by building warriors...

Markets is 150 hammers.. That is quite a lot for a small city. Building markets for just 2 happiness is 5 times as expensive as just building warriors under hrule... Markets is a very poor building and should only be built in cities that give you at least 20 gold on average(so with a slider of 60% a city would need to produce 50+ commerce or have a market, or of course in a city with a shrine or a HQ) for it to be worth building it before most other things... Not to mention that by the time you complete the market you can be 9 pop bigger by building warriors...
that's not even the start of an argument
if you have large unhappy cities, a market is 1 whip.
Sure it costs more hammers than a warrior, but it brings gold, allows merchants and doesn't cost anything, whereas the warriors cost gold, must be whipped one by one and are good for absolutely nothing else.
And you must run HR for the rest of the game which certainly isn't very efficient.
You can't just compare the hammers.

Then again, it was all about the tech path, not the most efficient happy way to spend hammers towards happiness (for this HR warriors are certainly best, I don't argue).

It is hard to get both furs and ivory both, early in the game. Furs only spawn in tundra, ivory tends to spawn in more tropical areas. It is somewhat often that you get neither.

Now, if you do get both, yes, then the market could be sufficient for happiness, placing your happiness limit at least 8, 9 for capital. Although, I prefer >9, since I want my capital 'at' 9, and I want to be slaving too. However, with a market, + furs + ivory, along with either religion or a mine luxury, you'd be pretty much set, and I'd likely skip monarchy.

It is hard to get both furs and ivory both, early in the game. Furs only spawn in tundra, ivory tends to spawn in more tropical areas. It is somewhat often that you get neither.

Now, if you do get both, yes, then the market could be sufficient for happiness, placing your happiness limit at least 8, 9 for capital. Although, I prefer >9, since I usually want my capital 'at' 9, and I want to be slaving too. Although, However, with a market, + furs + ivory, along with either religion or a mine luxury, you'd be pretty much set, and I'd likely skip monarchy.

Small cities don't need markets. Markets are better than courthouses in commerce cities if they are producing a lot of commerce, unfortunately they will never get finished in commerce cities. Better to use hereditary rule and warriors/archers/chariots and just mass cottages.