Post your feedback for this scenario here.

Some text is missing here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197420&stc=1&d=1229449860

I accidentally declared war against perp by casting a tsunami on a hidden unit he had.

The war everyone against me don't seem to end also

I crashed the game by moving a work boat into the Maelstrom. I had moved it there 6 or 7 times before, but suddenly the game froze and crashed.

same thing happened for me i'm afraid

I crashed the game by moving a work boat into the Maelstrom. I had moved it there 6 or 7 times before, but suddenly the game froze and crashed.

Can 2d this and that it was pretty pointless in the first place since the times when the scenario didn't crash, the ship only moved a tile or so. Since I haven't cheated and looked on the map (I like to be surprised) so now it can be so that their is no more body of water on the map so the symbolic move (to another tile nearby) is all it can do.

Some text is missing here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197420&stc=1&d=1229449860


It's not just this, but all Defeat-messages are missing.

Also when you finish the scenario the textstring to the 2 choices you get, is missing too :sad:

At least I' m guessing that having the option to choose either txt_key_event_wb_the_momus_Beer_is_offer_Yes or
txt_key_event_wb_the_momus_Beer_is_offer_No means that you have 2 choices. ;)


Also when I chose "No", the scenario does not end ?
(when choosing "yes", Beeri allied with me and together we had to destroy Perpentach - thus I was able to end the scenario)

Not 100% sure if you want other feedback besides bug-reports yet.. but I guess it won't hurt :)


Props:
- Perpentach and especially the poems he is making
- The storyparts inbetween the scenarios are fantastically flavorful
- Quite fun, especially in the beginning


Slops:
- Map seems abit too chaotic ? Could be intended though.
- It gets repetitive/boring quite fast, especially if perpentach chooses war between everyone or between all CPU and the player all the time.
How about lenghtening the time where you can just attack 1 player ? (not upping the number of turns between Perpentach's choices, but actually making it happen more often that he chooses this option)

For me, the scenario was quite alot of fun to play ... until Perpentach just chose either "all attack the lanun" or "free for all" every single time (around Turn 200ish), thus making it "just" another Domination-game with always war on...

yes, by the time the PCs reach one side of the map, Perpentach switches the target.

I think it's very hard for the second scenario, but I'll try again later. I'm usually a turtle, so I played 300 turns and no one was razed or anything. then I began and settled early, but the gray guy was the enemy (I forgot his name), he created Rosier and stole my third city. and no one dares to attack him too... all archers 3/7 and stuff.. and my units diseased.. help plz lol :D

Yeah, all my units are mutated. Kind of annoying.

The most annoying game I have ever played in my life :) Is it only a feeling or do units get mutated again when you upgrade them? I kinda got the feeling that more and more of my units get crazed but I always look when I build new units and send the 'lunaticks' to hunt/be hunted.

So far 300 into the game [emperor] and 3 civs killed off by other AIs. One infernal is sweaping the land with a legion of diseased corpses. Do not know if I can make it with only 4 cities and longbowmen.

Got also the maelstorm CtD but I see it was already reported.

Just a bit too chaotic for me to really enjoy this one I'm afraid :(

Is every unit supposed to be mutated? Is it more of Perpentach's crazyness or a bug? It is fun having everything getting random buffs / unbuffs.
Other than that, a fun scenario. :goodjob:

Pros:
- The leader art is amazing. Whoever finds these things really outdid himself.
- Great storyline at the beginning with the archangel and such.
- Concept is kind of fun.

Cons:
-AAAARGH. I feel like this is some kind of punishment. "No you can't get to the next scenario until you conquer every single little city on the map." This scenario is exactly the reason why you NEVER play with the domination and time victory conditions off. I'm 350 turns in or so, have conquered half the map, and don't want to think about how long the other half is going to take.
- Defeat messages aren't working.
- Perpentach is kind of a jerk, isn't he?

This is great feedback guys, keep it coming, its exactly what I needed to know.

Heh. Perp makes this so hard. War with everyone would make it so much easier... I can't focus to take down one civ at at time. Regular units move way to slow to arrive and kill someone by the time that happens, he's moved on...

The Infernals killed me. Every time Perpy made everyone at war with them, they always targeted me. Glad there was no Hell terrain, though.

Yeah, Infernals get REALLY powerful if you can't kill them early, because there's lots of evil people around.

I have to say this map is pretty frustrating. I spent several hundred turns turtled in, with Perpentach alternating between "everybody gang up on the Lanun" and "everybody fight everybody". Each time that I tried to detach a force large enough to take an AI player's city, another AI sent their invasion force and I was forced to withdraw.

I finally managed to muster enough troops to eradicate the Hippus. I thought that I was finally gaining momentum and could beat up the other players... only to realize that my next neighbors the Infernals were wielding Champions, which my Swordmen were no match against. I checked the technology advisor - had the Infernals outteched me, did I need to research something to get Champions of my own? It turned out that no, this wasn't the case - I'd had the technology for them for at least a hundred turns, but I hadn't realized they needed a harbor to produce. Fortunately I did get Heron's Throne built in the one coastal city I have... so I have a total of one city which I can use to produce Boarding Parties, while the Infernals can produce Champions in as many cities as they happen to possess.

This sounds like I'm up for a slow, slow grind.

This scenario will probably take a long time. The AI knocked out the Amurites so that was nice, but the Hippus and Infernals keep ganging up on me. Perpy also seems to have something against the Calabim as he keeps having us gang up on them, especially around turn 200. He had us declare war on them three times in a row.

I have to say this map is pretty frustrating. I spent several hundred turns turtled in, with Perpentach alternating between "everybody gang up on the Lanun" and "everybody fight everybody". Each time that I tried to detach a force large enough to take an AI player's city, another AI sent their invasion force and I was forced to withdraw.

Yes. It started out switching to random people fighting and then seemed to get stuck on everybody fight lanun. I got several popups from Perp with the same everyone fight lanun text.


I hadn't realized they needed a harbor to produce [champions]. Fortunately I did get Heron's Throne built in the one coastal city I have... so I have a total of one city which I can use to produce Boarding Parties, while the Infernals can produce Champions in as many cities as they happen to possess.

Oh no! I have never played Lanun before so I didn't realize that they need harbors. That will make this scenario VERY hard!

Overall I think it is a very neat concept, but it seems like the map size combined with the switching mechanic and the kill everyone mechanic will make this scenario really frustrating. I realize the point of the scenarios is to have different game types and this one clearly is not "for me" (I prefer builder civs). But I am sad that I will have to slog through in order to unlock the next scenarios.

I checked the technology advisor - had the Infernals outteched me, did I need to research something to get Champions of my own? It turned out that no, this wasn't the case - I'd had the technology for them for at least a hundred turns, but I hadn't realized they needed a harbor to produce. Fortunately I did get Heron's Throne built in the one coastal city I have... so I have a total of one city which I can use to produce Boarding Parties, while the Infernals can produce Champions in as many cities as they happen to possess.

This sounds like I'm up for a slow, slow grind.

Aye, the infernals I think are quite possibly overpowered in this particular setup. I got SODed by them very quickly into the game (thanks Perpentach...).

I haven't finished it, the first time I got chosen to get piled on third time 'round' and just got whiped out. It's a really slow paced scenario, because the threat of dogpile means you must make huge armies.

Not particularly dynamic either. I'm not sure that there are many 'different' ways to play it. We'll see.

I saved and started some other scenarios. This scenario is fun, more fun than a regular game where I've set out to conquer the whole world, but the map is very big and the AI got lots of troops so it will take some time.

I gave up when i couldn't make peace with perpy. And for the diseases you get by the infernals, use a priest with cure disease on the army and your done.

Started this last night, my first thought is that it is a stark jump up from the Grand Menagarie scenario and as such I'm kind of wondering if it would be better if the map was half the size and if the number of AI civs (excluding Perp) was trimmed to five? (map size perhaps being set so that there is enough room for around 20 cities...and perhaps Perp be set to be unable to build Settlers)

Love Perps mood swings, and the accompanying poems.

-AAAARGH. I feel like this is some kind of punishment. "No you can't get to the next scenario until you conquer every single little city on the map."
I have a bit of the same opinion regarding having to finish this scenario to unlock the next:
I don't like this scenario, but I like even less that it is needed to unlock another one (I hate the concept of needing to play through something which may be boring in order to play something which may be fun, so I'd happily throw all the scenario requirement stuff in all games where they exist - it only makes sense in games where your units carry on from one scenario to the next, like the old Fantasy General...).

The concept sounds fun, but when you arrive just before the border and Perpie tells you 'No, stop it, attack someone on the other edge of the map please' and you have to wait it through, it's boring.
I believe Perpie is probably bored too. It's chaotic, but in such a way that you can't defeat people fast, so it just drags.
I think it would be much better if Perpentach made this game a 'killer' game. Namlely, you have to kill one opponent. Someone has to kill you. When you've defeated your target, you're given a new one. Ideally, you wouldn't know who wants to kill you, nor be able to attack them unless they are your target. At least this way, there'd be more focused wars, and you would still suddenly have to change your targets depending on the pair you're at war with.
But this way, changing too often makes for long boring games (or short everyone crushes you games).

Very nice variation: both total mutation and random wars. Maybe even good for game option. But once more: heroes should be immune to crazed/enraged!

When it starts to be boring there is always a worldbuilder.

I think it would be much better if Perpentach made this game a 'killer' game. Namlely, you have to kill one opponent. Someone has to kill you. When you've defeated your target, you're given a new one. Ideally, you wouldn't know who wants to kill you, nor be able to attack them unless they are your target. At least this way, there'd be more focused wars, and you would still suddenly have to change your targets depending on the pair you're at war with.
But this way, changing too often makes for long boring games (or short everyone crushes you games).

Brilliant! It's like the game of assassins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)). This way you are always at war with 2 people at any time (your target and the person trying to kill you). It is a variation on a game of last man standing. Ideally everyone would get a target and when you eliminate a player their target becomes your target.

I think that could be a fun general game mode as well!

As for the scenario, I agree that one nice improvement would be to shrink the map size and reduce the number of opponents. This has the twin benefit of making the scenario shorter (thus less of a chore) and reducing the danger of being dogpiled.

My air elementals and fireballs cannot fly anymore, but the pedia lists them as flying (but they get flat movement cost). that´s quite a problem with all those water/mountain chokepoints. Often even spell extension 2 isnt enough for some raids on the enemy. I dont know if this problem persists in normal (non scenario) games.
Anyhow, i love this scenario. After surviving the first "all on lanun" action my elite troopers take one enemy after another. If i eventually get stopped by perpy, i can use the time to rebuild for 20 turns! very nice!

Personally, I love this scenario. I normally play very reserved builder games with late game conquest and this was a refreshing change of pace from that. I abandoned the coast (I know I know) and expanded north/northeast hemming in the Hippus and Infernals during the enforced peace. Having crippled their expansion when Perp decided everyone should go to war I piled on swordsmen + cats + saverous into the Hippus and killed them in 7 turns. Perp declared us on the Amurites and since they were too far away to trifle with I left them to the AI and worked on infrastructure until Perp called free for all again. Now I'm busily crushing the Infernals with cats + Saverous + Hemah. Even if Perp calls it off I've already taken so much land that I have a healthy lead in score and my industrial output is strong enough to defend against all my neighbors.

I suspect the cleanup on this scenario will be a pain, but I feel getting to the top has been a blast.

I think many of you must have figured already but if you don't get involved in the wars Perpentach will get them to attack you, IMO this makes the scenario even worse. you start after everyone and have to grow very FAST to be able to play along with Perpy, but you shouldn't be forced to throw units away just to be able to survive. also it doesn't help that you are surrounded by other civs, while Uldanor is in the right bottom, and as I said before, by the time people reach him, Perpy switches the target

I am usually cool at Deity, but here, there is no obvious easy way ! You need very big guys or spells to come through promoted archers on the close-by city on hills, as well as defending against city raiders infernal champs.

And the easy kill guys are not there: No Duin, No Orthus axe for a big guy.
Magic seems your best chance, namely damaging priests, Chalid or Hemma as city takers. Priests healing was also quite necessary with all the mutations in my game.


There are also a few things that could make a fair game turn bad: If two/three neighboors unluckily perfectly coordinate their attack - your defense need is much higher.
It is also not so easy to predict the attacks locations if you have a few cities.

Maybe I had by luck from starting settings, and for repeted "all against Lanun" ... but that's definitely not an easy scenario for a number 2 !

i ended up using tsunami to declare war on whoever i wanted. even with doing this, this is a very looong scenario. maybe just having to win a domination victory and not a total conquest victory would make it better?

I think many of you must have figured already but if you don't get involved in the wars Perpentach will get them to attack you,

Are you sure of this? This sounds like it might just be coincidence.

Am I the only one that thought this scenario was easy? I built two cities in the immediate starting are, got them to produce 100+ beakers, fortified the 3 choke points, and got myself a nice stack of doom consisting of Chalid, Gurbrush, A Luridus, 2 air 2 mages, 2 archery units 4 rathas and a host of boarding parties all having 3 move speed. Eventually captured a vampire too. After a 250 turn rampage, the game was won. Once you get the army, it takes a while to kill every city, but I didn't think it was exactly hard.

and what difficulty?

I got the past the frustration stage myself, and now I'm in a boring phase - like with the Return of Winter, once you've established yourself as sufficiently strong, individual opponents no longer give you any challenge (even if they'd all be united in fighting you). Perpentach told me to go fight somebody I haven't even met yet, and so I am spending my time building up my troops, massing an army which can just walk over any city once I end up in a war with somebody a bit closer again...

I would suggest changing the victory condition, so that instead of wiping out all the others you need to control 50% of the total area for 40 turns, or something.

(And please, fix the messages you get when destroying another civilization - at least a flavorful text would be a nice if small reward for the effort spent, but now I'm just annoyed that there might be a flavorful text underneath but I won't get a chance to see it.)

Just so I'd do something else than just complain, the picture of the Infernal leader is really neat-looking. :)

Are you sure of this? This sounds like it might just be coincidence.

well, I'm not sure (should check the Foreign Advisor because it may be free for all), but I thought the poem he read had to do with this.

Could you make "Always Mutate" into a normal game option? Seems to be active in this scenario and it is FUN! I got a Bambur with Blitz/Strong, then I got a settler with Blitz/Strong/Cannibalize/Heroic Offense! My settler is a 2/1 killing machine!

I think you should just have victory tokens. You need 4 victory tokens, each capital you capture gives you one.

Might make it wrap up a bit faster.

I am experiencing the problems loading scenarios - sometimes it works sometimes it does not. None of the following seems to have any influence on whether it works or not:
Loading a Scenario from turn 1 of a new duel size Erebus game, Loading a Scenario from turn 2 of a new duel size Erebus game, Loading a scenario from within another scenario. Sometimes it works sometimes it crashes.

Now I got a different CTD when starting this scenario - it even comes with a python exception :)

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "CvWBInterface", line 47, in applyInitialItems

File "CvWBDesc", line 1818, in applyInitialItems

File "CvWBDesc", line 1151, in applyUnits

File "CvWBDesc", line 688, in apply

RuntimeError: unidentifiable C++ exception
ERR: Python function applyInitialItems failed, module CvWBInterface

well... if you're finding it too tough to follow perp's orders and only attack the chosen target, CoE's your friend~ Being able to weaken strong neighbours irregardless of Perp's decision helps a lot, while building up an army on his border waiting for one to kill him or a simple FFA.

Ah, finally, this game I got lucky, and had everyone attack each other, and then everyone on me, so I used the opportunity to steamroll the Hippus hella early. Now for the Infernals and I should be able to win.

So if Hippus and Infernals are taken out early, then it really should be mopping up.

Holy the infernals in this game have Pass into the Nether, I just finished Fanaticism, and I notice they took a city far back beyond my lines. I take it back with Saverous and a Cultist, and I notice they had an Obsideon Gate, and were porting in troops.

They're like half way down the scores too. :/

Infernals get a free gate in every city :-D

Ah, finally, this game I got lucky, and had everyone attack each other, and then everyone on me, so I used the opportunity to steamroll the Hippus hella early. Now for the Infernals and I should be able to win.

So if Hippus and Infernals are taken out early, then it really should be mopping up.

I did the same. My stack of swordsmen and catapults was 1 turn from razing Dis when Perp decided to declare peace and war with the stupid light blue girl on the other side of the map.

A lot of fun, but I agree that there needs to be a small number of victory tokens, or something to speed the match up.

Another random unwinnable game, or at least, not reasonably winnable. I was at war with every civ for the entire 60ish turns that I played. Built almost exclusively military (After a couple work boats) and just couldn't match the opponents military might.

Playing on Emperor: [the Menagerie was so easy I thought this one wont be much harder, it was the second scenario after all o.0]

I was crushed by stacks of stacks of doom. One AI got lucky and managed to grab someones cities early on. He then grew to 3k points [turn ~350] while others [me too] were at 1k mark. Had beastmasters backed up with prety high level longbowmen. Had a golden hammer on my beastmaster and rod of winds [with 4 air mana sources!!!] - that did not help. Was a fine game but not winnable :)

Started again on lower difficulty but apparently still to high. Without save/load I wouldnt stand a chance [with I never do :( here goes my moral spine] Now I have Chalid, 3 sources of mana, 3 uber promoted druids and bestmasters and I have killed one opponent [revenge is sweat, it was that infernal that killed me last time :D] Why do I have to wait till Perp declares another war? Little bit frustrating.

Pros:
- I like the chaos theme
- the poems are great, I want more

Const:
- is it me or is this map very low on health resources?
- the map is too big there fore the game has to go to T4 even if you have a big advantage
- after you kill the one that is being dogpilled Perp should immediately declare another war
- units beeing mutated again when upgraded
- heroes mutaded

Proposals:
- the player should know the location of every capital
- make the map smaller
- there is no sense in this maddnes and we all know there should be one behind it, for example: building a carnival/theater should be rewarded by Perp in some way [a unit, if you are beeing dogpilled by every one then shift the dogpile to the other civ{dancing and throwing out festivities in the face of destruction should please the great clown}], after defeating a player/surviving a dogpile receive a golden age for 5 turns, etc, even give a way to manipulate Perp a little
- I like very much that proposal mentioned above were you have one opponent to hunt and one is hunting you, is it doable with civilisation engine?


Hmm, now I have to try the coastal fortress tacticks. This might actually work.

A king of the hill game would be interesting...

Oh and rewards for doing crazy things would be awesome

Then I got a settler with Blitz/Strong/Cannibalize/Heroic Offense! My settler is a 2/1 killing machine!

That's not fair! My settler had weak and withered:mad:.

Are you sure of this? This sounds like it might just be coincidence.

From what I am seeing, Perpy seems to have three states.... everybody fight everybody..... everybody dogpile the player with the highest score..... everybody dogpile the player with the lowest score?

With that in mind.... I always plan to be attacked by anyone and everyone since I usually have the high score.... lots of longbowmen and 2nd tier clerics for defense..... while creating cats and boarding parties to accompany my heroes to defeat those around me.....

Still a slog-fest... not really my cup of tea... I'm a builder, but have built little non-military in tis game. :p

I'll get through it though.... somehow!! :lol:

Note: Kael has announced in the Bug thread that patch "b" will include a new version of this scenario with a smaller map.

yeah, that's why I'll wait before trying again :p at least there are other unlocked scenarios.

Something that worked well for me: I founded Empyrean. Those radiant guards can pretty much halt those stacks of doom in their tracks. And running the Conquest civic helps a lot.

So, I have Chalid casting loyalty when necessary. And have a stack with a couple archers, Chalid, Guybrush, a Radient Guard, a Priest and a swordsman who visit each stack of doom as it arrives, and kills it over many turns, while radiant guards in other cities just cast blinding light over and over.

Actually, I only recently built Chalid, and he makes it easier. He auto-castes crown of brilliance every turn, and still can caste one additional time each turn. After that, even the priest and archers can join the fight. I am on turn 259, and I think so far I have only lost one Radiant Guard. I only have 5 cities + 1 captured one, and have been mostly been playing defense. Which I guess is not really the point of this scenario. :)

Btw, it is important to make your first city in the starting location, build a port, and run Conquest. If you have money, you can upgrade to boarding parties in your capital, if you wan to do that. So far, swordsman + radiant guards are working.

Oh, and I do not have any earth mana, but I think I have had 3 mines find resources so far. Seems more than usual. I found 1 iron, and 2 copper. (I already had planted cities near those resources, so I didn't need them, but they do help with building things)

Lastly, I have a worker with the weak promotion, who has a strength of -1. Shouldn't strength be a minimum of 0?

Lost a city with 2 defenders to a lucky Hippus again.
Lost all interest in that scenario.

Not a lot of fun to have Lanun on a land-only map, but I will have to try it again, maybe taking some thematically not-too-Lanunlike tactics to heart. I ended up terraforming the crappy coastal desert into plains, and going FoL to forest up all those plains, in the hopes of getting a rare treant defender for the horrible doom stacks, and also went Guardian of Nature in order to get lots of happiness from the forests and whatnot, since trading for luxuries in a wild wars scenario just wasn't going to happen. GoN at least lets you build super large cities with good health and happiness, which makes them half decent production centres as well.

I will probably try that again, currently I'm turtled with an "everyone attack the Lanun" type of scene going on, seeing the number of cities out there, I'm just not thinking it'll be my cup of tea to grind through all those cities, one at a time. Need to start crushing cities earlier next time (probably just razing, as opposed to defending nonstrategic spots, who cares with no AC anyhow?)

I want the new patch NOW! :D

Oh, and I do not have any earth mana, but I think I have had 3 mines find resources so far. Seems more than usual. I found 1 iron, and 2 copper. (I already had planted cities near those resources, so I didn't need them, but they do help with building things)

Same here. Probably the laws of probability around Perp are also disturbed. That is why I got 3(!!!) acolites from a dungeon before their religion was founded [in two games on emperor and warlord level just to see the starting location {the resources are random btw}]

^.^ Im dominating the game utterly on Emperor.


That said... I have a question... For Kael really.



What happens if I take out Perpenatach? XD?

I loved this. Too bad the AIs didn't fight eachother though, they only went for me whenever they could. But, that adds to the challenge, and i REALLY enjoyed it! I'm a bit tired of Lanun right now though, and i can't seem to start Fall of Cuantine. I'll guess i'll check the files and stuff.

Thank you, Team Kael!

Edit: Nevermind, i installed Patch B in the wrong directory.

Kael, AWESOME rework of the map. This scenario is extremely improved. Now with the added water areas we can really take advantage of lanun. The kraken in the middle lake to make you fight for the pearls and coves there is a nice touch. I think this scenario will be much more manageable now.

I always thought when i'm going to defeat all the other players, Perpentach would declare war on me (because he's insane) and "kill himself" ;)
That would be pretty funny and especially after you took all the cities around his empire (what you should do).
And then, Falamar let him the choice to run away or put him into a prison/cage somewhere and takes his ships ;)
would be even funnier if you have to hunt him down, fleeing in a gypsy wagon :D

Wow now this scenario is awesome! However game crashed when killing Luchiorp

I just started on the new map, and when I researched honor, the game asked me "Which religion would you like to found?" and listed Runes, Leaves, and Esus. I picked Runes, just for kicks, and became the founder without ever researching Way of the Earthmother. I got the runes holy city, but no runes acoytle, just one for Empyrean. If it makes a difference, Empyrean had already been founded, so I wasn't expecting to found that. Just thought I would post my experience.

Edit: Just realized I got a Thane of Kilmorph too.

I don't know if this should go in the bug or scenario thread:

Ok, i slogged my way through every civ on the map except Beeri. Something comes up saying "TEXT_KEY_BEERI_OFFER or near that anyway. I click the yes option and suddenly I'm at war with Perp and peace with Beeri. Well, I guess that's OK, so I attack Perp, though I did notice my objective hadn't changed. It was very challenging with his oodles of cultists and guards, but eventually I take him down. And... nothing happens and I can't declare war on Beeri. This must be a bug, but fortunately I have an earlier save before the offer.

Edit- oh, and in an earlier try the same thing happened to me as it did to eddfire.

The new one was much better. I have some general concerns and the first one is that Tsunami is WAY too strong. I know it is situational, but still.
The Infernals don't seem to make good use of their manes, they had lots of spare ones in their capital when I found it.

I just started on the new map, and when I researched honor, the game asked me "Which religion would you like to found?" and listed Runes, Leaves, and Esus. I picked Runes, just for kicks, and became the founder without ever researching Way of the Earthmother. I got the runes holy city, but no runes acoytle, just one for Empyrean. If it makes a difference, Empyrean had already been founded, so I wasn't expecting to found that. Just thought I would post my experience.

Edit: Just realized I got a Thane of Kilmorph too.

Same thing happened to me. I researched Way of the Earthmother and got Empyrean.

I quite like the new map, there's at least a chance to bring some sea power to bear, especially in a couple of spots where you can make a city connect two bodies of water. Some ideal choke points here and there that I don't think existed in the prior version as well.

One odd point, maybe unfixable... area of effect damage spells, and not causing war. Well, I know declarations are all controlled by the scenario, but I'm able to do silly amounts of damage to different factions without DoW, for strategic reasons.

Example: I park the Black Wind in front of a Balseraph (Perpentarch) city in a little bay, their only coastal property. Perp and I will never, ever be at war.

I blockade it, make 12 gold a turn, and have two cultists standing there as well, doing a Tsunami every single turn without irritating Perp... but seriously crippling any naval vessels he manages to produce, to get rid of the annoying Black Wind. Unfortunately the BW is stuck in an inland sea, unable to go elsewhere, but it's worth it to make 12 gold a turn for hundreds of turns. Parking the BW there is perfectly valid, it's the Cultists thrashing all the units in the city, which is the exploity bit I guess. Call it a mad king then, who doesn't care if his people get a little wet (only other OO worshipper on the map, as it stands).

Using Tsunami on perp's units didnt cause war?, o damn, I wasted so many turns moving units and waiting for him to move his units before I casted Tsunami >_<

now it's perfect :P
I'm taking my time, don't know if the starting locations were the best. apparently (I didn't notice it before the patch), Perpentach picks the civ with the most score, at least in my current game everyone that's picked up is leading (or behind perpentach himself).

I followed the suggestion to go Empyrean and I have razed the Hippus. Weevil and co. got some cities to the southeast and northwest, and I couldn't finish him. when we (YES, the AI was "helping" me) were about to siege the last Khazad city, Perpentach switched the target civ :P

I think the most difficult one to raze will be the Duke, when he was picked he had some Balors and the city had more than 100% defense bonus haha right now I have 1 Chalid stack-of-doom razing civs, one stack with RGs, Vicars and catapults near one calabim city (I already got one from them) and another stack near the amurites, both just waiting for the green flag. still, without catapults or chalid I'm having some problems in 1x1 combat, I'm pretty sure that picking body mana wasn't the best choice, right now I have two adepts with haste, I had one with Air (I was trying to get him Maelstrom) but he died. well, at least I'm having fun, Chalid is awesome!

I think this should be in the other topic, but whatever :p

So "b" didn't fix the missing/broken texts in this scenario?

I think I'll wait that's done before giving it a new try - I play the scenarios primarily for their story, and there's no point in playing if don't get that. :/

So "b" didn't fix the missing/broken texts in this scenario?

I think I'll wait that's done before giving it a new try - I play the scenarios primarily for their story, and there's no point in playing if don't get that. :/

I need more specifics than this, the defeated text messages that were broken before are fixed for me. What arent you seeing?

I need more specifics than this, the defeated text messages that were broken before are fixed for me. What arent you seeing?

Those are the ones I was referring to (haven't played the scenario with the latest patch yet - that's why I was asking, to find out if they were fixed yet). I got the impression that they wouldn't be from this message:

Ok, i slogged my way through every civ on the map except Beeri. Something comes up saying "TEXT_KEY_BEERI_OFFER or near that anyway. I click the yes option and suddenly I'm at war with Perp and peace with Beeri.

But I don't know what patch he was using - if everything is fixed, then thanks, great - I'll go play!

Started playing the redesigned Momus scenario, and I'll have to second the praise for the redesign - the new map is much, much more playable! It is actually pleasant to play now, not frustrating as before. Great job.

I picked the first option (with just the txt_key) last night (patch d I believe), and nothing happened.

I don't know if it's supposed to be that way, but a Civ is not destroyed if an item remains. I killed everyone in the scenario but Beeri Bawl was still there (and when I capture his last city the message that the Khazad/Luchuirp were destroyed appeared). I found a Scorched Staff that was left behind, and it happened to me once in a game. I lost my city but a healing salve was my only unit there, I could delete it from the WB, but in-game I had nothing to do, it can't move and I can't delete it (AFAIK).

it took me 450+ turns to finish it, but it was a fun game in Noble :P

And I scorched a lot of tiles without penalties.

And having permanent open borders is very funny. I mean, I leave my stacks in the cities gates and they don't even imagine what I'm waiting for :p

Very fun but I didn't end up with berri's offer in the game

I really liked this with the new map, good times. Thanks so much for making good use of feedback!

I finished on patch C and as it was just me and Beeri left, I got some kind of TEXT message about YES or NO to an offer which was buggy. My best guess was it was going to involve "don't kill me, let's team up vs. Perp", so I picked NO, and continued thrashing him. Maybe had I played at "D", it would've been a clearer set of options *shrugs*

I just finished playing and since I got the lead pretty early, every day was "Take on the Pirate" day, which make the Perpentarch seem not really crazy at all.

The mandatory mutation was fun and if would be nice to make it into a standard game option, although Chaos II suffers for it.

I also wonder if the complete lack of Reagents and Mithril are intentional, or was I just unlucky. I either case, I think that made the endgame drag out more than necessary.

To combat the late game boredom, I suggest making the remainder of a civ turn barbarian when their capital is captured.

This isn't specific to Momus, but more of a general scenario question, but what do the special minor traits of Weak, Foolish, (and any others that I'm missing) actually do? I can't seem to look them up on the civilopedia, nor can I access the minor leaders themselves, it's a little irritating.


Specific to Momus, what on earth does Momus mean?:confused:

This isn't specific to Momus, but more of a general scenario question, but what do the special minor traits of Weak, Foolish, (and any others that I'm missing) actually do? I can't seem to look them up on the civilopedia, nor can I access the minor leaders themselves, it's a little irritating.


Specific to Momus, what on earth does Momus mean?:confused:

Foolish is -25% to research.
Weak gives all units the weak promotion so -1 strength.

As for Momus, a greek god of poetry, among other things...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momus

Momus is also the leader of the gypsy pack perpy made to release him from his captivity.

Re-design much better. Played and enjoyed it.

Still feels like quite a big jump in terms of learning curve...perhaps someday an extra Falamar scenario could be added and set-up so it falls between Grand Menagarie and The Momus? Perhaps something on the lines of sailing and finding an island with an epic lair (after battling past some barbs to reach it) as both an introduction to the lair feature of FFH2 and combat (with units more advanced than animals)?

Noted one slight typo in the intro text where Condatis says to Falamar "We must all make due" - presumably should be do

I got down to Beeri then the offer event, i killed Perpentach, 10 turns later it didn't end so then i WB'ed Perpy another city and killed Beeri and it ended, but i can't play next scenario... :cry:

I cruised through on my first time try, on Monarch, patch f.

I found that once I was strong enough to take out one opponent, I could just roll through the rest. The end might be more interesting if things got progressively more difficult. For example, for each civ you knock out, the other opponents could get a free tech.

After reading the thread, I doubt if making it more difficult would be popular. Maybe I should try emporer instead.

I found that once I was strong enough to take out one opponent, I could just roll through the rest.
Actually, I find this is the case in most scenarios and in regular Civ/FFH.

On another note, this is my first time through this scenario. Have not read many posts because of that but enough to wonder...
Beeri got killed by somebody long before I could pay him a visit.
What do I miss out on?

He suggests that you and he team up and take down Perp. When I got the event it was buggy but I think a permanent alliance is formed and you try to eliminate the Baels.

This is the wrong thread but a useful tip is to convert to the veil as opposed to the overlords. Getting a nice stack of ritualists on side makes this scenario a push over.

not sure if it's been mentioned but:

there's a bug with the mutation of units. I know that every unit starts mutated, however if you upgrade a mutated melee unit (say, a warrior) to a more advanced unit (a boarding crew for example), it gets mutated AGAIN. This can lead to some pretty rediculous units, going from warrior to swordsman to boarding crew.

I feel that Duke Sallos needs a nerf. I know he is supposed to be the most powerful enemy, but as it is now he kills off at least 2-3 civs in every game I've played, and if he comes at the human player early enough, they're screwed. I think that taking away iron from the palace and maybe diseased corpses too would due it, as the main problem is that he levels up his units on the Amurites and then kills everyone else with large stacks of CRIII corpses with iron weapons. Just my 2c.

This is the wrong thread but a useful tip is to convert to the veil as opposed to the overlords. Getting a nice stack of ritualists on side makes this scenario a push over.

I've found the Order useful. Minimizes the amount of your units that the Infernals get, and the Crusaders' anti-demon promotions come in quite handy.

My play through on the redesign was a blast. I agree that the second map is more fun and less slog. I went Empyrean and targeted the infernals right away. Everyone except Perp, myself and the Hippus went AV. Perp went OO and the Hippus went Order. Right now I've got the Infernals down to one last super stack that Chalid is bombarding in their last city while I build up my forces. Notably, I've been at war with everyone for the last 120 turns (alternating free for all with dogpile on the Lanun). I probably should have won already, but I'm being excessively cautious. Once the Infernal are gone I think I'll be able to steamroller everyone else.

:goodjob:

Even though many people found it boring or too difficult, this scenario was great fun for me.

I got dogpile early in the game, but fortunately, I had built some catapults and was able to survive until Perps changed the target. I went for Honnor, in order to get the Empyrean religion and their Radiant guards. Every city was able to build them without any other building required. And the Vicar were great support for my troops.

Finally, I was able to kill the infernals with the help of Chalid. Without him, this game was impossible. With him, it was fun and easy. When Perps found the CoEs, I tough that this would be a good strats also, attacking other civs without declaring war on them...

Just wanted to add, GREAT JOB to the FFH2 team again! These scenarios are like playing a new game, almost! :):goodjob:

I also found every one but Perp, Captain Uldanor, Berri Bawl and me went AV, with Beeri going Order and Uldanor and Perp OO, and myself Empyrean.

Finally finished my run through it last night, was a blast. My lack of reagents kept me from my normal strategy of 'blow everything up with archmages' but that meant I was able to use immortals for the first time, which was a lot of fun.

Also got Chalid up to level 21. Great scenario, I'll definitely play it again (not right away though :)).

That didn't happen when I played-even when I attacked the Luichurp-I just killed them. Is this a bug, or am I just misinformed?

Oh, Order is useful, for confessors' remove desease promotion (helps greatly when your AV enemies dogpile you with stacks of deseased corpses, and is nice for getting curing withered units too) The crusader's anti-demon bonuses are also nice when you fight the infernal (speaking of which, try to wipe them out as early in the game as you can-they have a tendancy to become unbeatably strong).

It only occurs when you and Beeri are the only two remaining warlords.

I played through this one and had a lot of fun. The toughest part was getting my start. I took one city in each direction and with four cities total I just took on whoever I was at war with. The Infernals were the toughest towards the end.

I would have finished 100 turns earlier, but I assumed (incorrectly) that I would have to take on Perpentach at the end. Sure the goal said to take out everyone else, but in the victory conditions screen, it says Conquest is the only option and the number of opponents remeining to victory includes Perpentach. I built up 3 large SOD on his borders to prepare for a quick mopup against his advanced (compared tot he other AI) defenders. I had another SOD camped outside the last city that I needed for victory for about 100 turns while I bolsted my defenses and built my end game invasion force that was entirely unnecessary.

With many cities being coastal, I found Cultists to be very powerful. I could have 3 Cultists cast Tsunami and a stack of highly promoted Drown kill off all the defenders in the city with relative ease. I could do all of my assualt from a coast tile limiting the AI ability to retalliate on my stacks. In the late game I switched to AV religion and did a similar tactic with Ritualists and RoF augmented by a stack of fireball mages and supporting melee units. Having a Boarding Party with the Guardsman promotion really helped to save my casters from AI Assassins.

Reading through some of the earlier posts, I think that a lot of people may have played this scenario on too high of difficulty. In previous versions of FfH the AI was not an intelligent opponent and often built worthless units (like deciples) in droves and didn't use many of the advanced features of the game. With the AI improvements in this latest version, players should rethink their defficulty level selection. Hats off to the FfH team for giving the AI some much needed artificial intelligence.

after being wiped out in my first game (i explored with my swordsmen and was quite surprised when my neighbour suddenly attacked me - that was a fun experience).

on the next try i had lots of fun, optimized my play a bit by going OO first, building tsunami-priests while beelining for empyrion and chalid.
with the krakens about it was a bit challenging to take the bad guys out without chalid - but due to the amount of coasts it was manageable.
later on it was a walk in the park. too bad berri was taken out by the AI, i would have loved to crush perpentarch :)

Well, in my game Beeri somehow managed to get a single tile island hideout defended by xbowmen, so he survived the whole way. :mischief:

my game froze on turn 257. Otherwise, it is a very good scenario. I played at Emperor, and one really needs some luck to survive: if the infernals were declared upon earlier and they decide to throw all their military against the player, it is game over. Three units were helpful to the success of the game, in no particular order: cultist, work boat, and warrior. There is no way to hold back enemies or to amass troops easily without the warriors, who are competitive for a long time (with the cultists helping them).

Well this is not my usual playing style but I quite enjoyed it. I went for Emypeans and Chalid really helped much. I was defending and building army until 100 turns left warning appeared. Then it took me only 50 turn to wipe out every civ. I used two powerful stacks. One with Chalid, Guybrush and few highly promoted units (Boarding patries, swordsmen and vicars) and the soecond one much bigger but weaker with melee units and cats. As for many others Duke Sallos was the main enemy. He was much more stronger than other civs mainly because each AI civ turned AV. I wouldn't be able to take his capital if it were not Raging seas wiping 50 ritualist out of his capital.:D

It might be interesting for the player to try to spread the Order or Empyrean to help avoid the Duke becoming too strong, assuming he is not declared on early enough to rush him. The less evil civs there are the better. Also, being a good civ yourself prevents (I think) him from getting manes from the cities you raze.

It might be interesting for the player to try to spread the Order or Empyrean to help avoid the Duke becoming too strong, assuming he is not declared on early enough to rush him. The less evil civs there are the better. Also, being a good civ yourself prevents (I think) him from getting manes from the cities you raze.

Have only this one through once, and must say I found it challenging. Found the key was to keep yourself on a low enough score not to get single out all the time.

One thing I would have liked to see is the wars lasting longer, as it is now you can barely do much more than take a city or two before you have to bring your army to the other end of the map. Also with the permanent open borders it felt kinda like cheating to move your army in next to another civs capitol and just wait for a war to be declared on them which there will sooner rather than later mostly.

Would it be possible to change how the war/peace system works so instead of there only being one war at a time going on, there could be say three instead. Either declared one at a time or all at once, just to keep the smaller civs from being dog piled early on. Fx first everyone declares war on the Inferno civ, at the next declaration everyone declares war on say the player, but they don't stop the war on the inferno guy. In case of a FFA it would of course have to have peace with everyone at the next declaration of war. Also there would have to be a maximum of wars at once, like three or something.

I think the enraged/crazed promotion is given too often. It is a flavor when a few of your units are running amok (trying to get my crazed settler where I intended was amusing) but when every other unit you build takes off it makes it too frustrating. Games should be challenging, not frustrating.

EDIT: I may have spoken too soon. Now that I have a large army, I don't care about those crazy guys anymore. However, I'm playing at Prince, pretty easy so far. At harder difficulty levels, one crazy settler can be game-over, I think.

Yea, there do seem to be ALOT of crazed units running around, i don't really enjoy that.

@reverend oats- I had that problem to in a game i lost. I sent a ship through the maestrom, and where should i appear but beside Beeri Bawl and a island with a settler. I probably should have quit right there, but then the Duke came by with a hoard of demons, so I really didn't need to.

My impression of this scenario has been WOW!!

I doubt I will ever enjoy a scenario as much as Age of Ice, with lots of 'cool' features, my introduction to the FfH world.

But I think it is hard to imagine a more fun scenario than the Momus as a strategy game. This was HARD! I lost my first two times but my win the third game was very satisfying; I could of course move down a level but it was fun to win on my normal level (Emperor).

I think this will have a lot of replay. Unlike many scenarios, which are fun to play for flavor once or twice, this scenario does change form game to game. It really is quite hard -- playing the Lanun on a land map. I think the aspect that makes it interesting is that I can't imagine a 'regular' Epic game ever being like this.

I did find the Infernals to be quite tough. I do like playing the Infernals from a 'normal' start. Usually in Epic games of FfH I run into the Infernals later in the game and I'm to take them. With the Ashen Vale spreading all over the place, their starting with iron, and their tough units, they are a monster. Fortunately the stigmata promotion does nothing here.

Anyway, we can see from the posts above that, unlike most scenarios, this has a lot of replay value. The resources are distributed differently from game to game and there is a lot of variation, included the impact of the mutations. There are a lot of different ideas to try.

Deciding which religion to take alone is a complex and interesting issue, I haven't made my mind up. Since I thought the scenarios are largely 'role playing', I did take the OO in my games so far. A key advantage of the OO is that Saverous is quite tough and isn't impacted by mutation, and is immune to a lot of the Infernal advantages; but playing the OO allows lost units to become Infernal manes. Take another religion like Order or Empyrean and you get some powerful advantages but your heroes will be mutated, and your early heroes (none for the Empyrean) can't match Saverous.

Winning here finally has really left a good taste in my mouth, a wonderful experience! There is no other way to say it, I thought this scenario is just plain great!

Best wishes,

Breunor

I loved this scenario. Though, at the end, I sided with Beeri, and when I got to Perp's capitol, it had 50 or so Stygian Guards and 50 OO acolytes. Luckily I had about 30 highly promoted boardin parties, Chalid and Guybrush. THIS SCENARIO IS THE BEST :)

I loved this scenario. Though, at the end, I sided with Beeri, and when I got to Perp's capitol, it had 50 or so Stygian Guards and 50 OO acolytes. Luckily I had about 30 highly promoted boardin parties, Chalid and Guybrush. THIS SCENARIO IS THE BEST :)

But why did you take Perp's capitol? You win by beating everyone besdies Perp! I just side-stepped him and beat everyone else!

Best wishes,

Breunor

He got the deal with Beeri to ally against Perp, which apparently can happen if it's only you and Beeri left.

Does anyone else find:

Best wishes,

Breunor

really, really annoying? :p

I don't think he was trying to belittle Guybrush.

I found your post amusing Ekolite because it makes it seem that you're annoyed at signatures.(Oh you are)

Oh & great scenario to all involved, I'm still very new to the mod & this scenario taught me a lot. I'll post something in the strategy thread eventually.

Does anyone else find:



really, really annoying? :p

I'm not trying to annoy anyone. What don't you like about 'best wishes'?

No sig(?),

Breunor

He got the deal with Beeri to ally against Perp, which apparently can happen if it's only you and Beeri left.

So this is a scenario feature? Would you (or someone else) explain how it works?

Is it special to Beeri, or does it depend on a religion? How does victory occur then? If you ally with Beeri, then do you have to conquer Beeri later after conquering Perpentech? That is, do you win if you and Beeri the last two left alive? If so, do you win even if Beeri has a higher score?

Best wishes,

Breunor

It triggers if only you and Beeri are left (and of course Perp). Your religion doesn't matter.
Beeri will offer you to overthrow Perp with him. You can then either choose to fight Perp with him or finish Perps Game and attack Beeri. If you choose fight Perp you will get Beeris help in the black tower scenario.

I'm not trying to annoy anyone. What don't you like about 'best wishes'?

No sig(?),

Breunor

No it's just that it gets a little old when you say it after every post you make. Other members with similiar sigs. are the same. It just grates on my nerves that's all.

what about your 'For order, for servitude, for Alexis'? One could make the same comment about yours. I don't care how small it is! (Sarcasm)

Hey Breunor, you should make 'best wishes' link to something.

Anyways, back on topic, does anyone else use the strategy of giving far-flung cities to Perpentach? It stops other civs from just building cities in empty spots, and it really doesn't hurt you.

what about your 'For order, for servitude, for Alexis'? One could make the same comment about yours. I don't care how small it is! (Sarcasm)

Hey Breunor, you should make 'best wishes' link to something.

Well to be fair, that isn't rely the same thing. Besides it is what you do in the NESing forum, it is a reference to a NES I'm involved in, and advertism for some stories I wrote for that NES.

Never mind, apparently I'm the only one who's bothered by it.

Best wishes! :suicide:

It triggers if only you and Beeri are left (and of course Perp). Your religion doesn't matter.
Beeri will offer you to overthrow Perp with him. You can then either choose to fight Perp with him or finish Perps Game and attack Beeri. If you choose fight Perp you will get Beeris help in the black tower scenario.

Wow,

That is NEAT! Something to try next time ......



Best wishes,

Breunor

PS Gotcha Ekolite! :-)

I chose to take out Beeri just because he only had 3 cities and Perpentach had taken over the rest of the map, is he supposed to settle in all that open space?

Wow,
Best wishes,

Breunor


Cheers,

Mesix:D

All of my units appear to be automated (the AI controls them whenever I don't). Why is that? (I've just built two cities and I'm near the beginning)

Most likly the new enraged. It puts units with the enraged promotion under Ai control instead of the chance to go barb.

I just "finished" this one and honestly if this was the first FFH game I had played I would have uninstalled it and never tried it again. Making everything mutated is the worst idea anyone ever came up with for one of these games. The first time I tried to play it, both of my settlers where enraged and wandered off to try and fight something. After restarting that BS, every single unit I made was either enranged, weak, diseased, or withered. I found nothing enjoyable about the scenario at all.

Lucky you have to complete The Grand Menagerie before playing it then :p

Although to be fair I found the Grand Menagerie a lot less enjoyable then The Momus.

I guess the new way Enraged works kinda screws up this scenario. I like the fact that units get mutated, but if you can start with enraged Settlers, that's kinda too much.

Do they settle when controlled by the AI?!

Hmm, yeh, settlers and workers should not start enraged.

Anyways, back on topic, does anyone else use the strategy of giving far-flung cities to Perpentach? It stops other civs from just building cities in empty spots, and it really doesn't hurt you.

i do this

also one bug i think that makes completing the scenario a royal pain in the ass is that apparently the whole thing is timed. i hate timed games and after playing 400 odd turns i was warned there are only 100 turns left and i had only conquored 1 civ. needless to say i shat myself and ran around like a madman (pun intended)killing off everyone. eventually i was left with 1 turn left and 1 city... yes ONE CITY left that was ONE SQUARE too far away from me to destroy and to top it off it only had a longbowman and ranger in it! because of this timer i lost the scenario. so, feeling really gyped i reloaded and went into world builder and deleted the city and won. i would have won anyway if it werent for you meddling timer!

Please at least show a warning ie "destroy all players except perp before the timer runs out" and display how many turns are left from the begining. if the timer is not ment to be ther please remove it!

I got the timer too, but fortunately managed to finish the scenario about 20 turns before it run out. I definitely agree that it should be removed, or if it isn't removed, at least have you win the scenario if you have the highest score when it ends.

Not sure if this belongs here or in the Bug Thread, but here goes:
Patch l, game freezes after I end my turn in the attached save.

Although I like the Mutated mechanic for the scenario, it really shouldn't be applied to Settlers. Also, a Mutated unit that is upgraded should not be hit with another Mutate, which seems to happen. I had several Adepts that, when upgraded to Mages, started wandering off looking for trouble. Getting an Adept to Mage is a pretty significant investment. Also, I think that Guybrush and other heroes should not be subject to Mutation for similar reasons.

Also, this scenario seems a bit difficult to believe; I can understand why Perpentach would do this, but why would everyone else participate in what is an ultimately needless slaughter? Perhaps this information could be provided in each Civ's death message.

Also, I found it very helpful to gift captured cities to Perpentach. It saved me from having to defend them and pay their upkeep, and it kept other Civs from taking them back or expanding into the open space if they were sacked.

I agree. Also, you could assume that the contest is taking place over a year at the very most, why are cities built and why do they grow, why are improvements built etc.

It doesn't make much sense really.

I was not too wild about my start-up; all copper, no food bonus. Made my decision to quit on turn 3 and then I clicked on the scenario selector and restarted.

Then restated again because one of my settlers was crazed.

And when the scenario started the third time, I got a crash to desktop.


Curious, I repeated this process and found that it crashes every time. The third time that the same scenario launches, you get CTD. But I have only tested this with Momus.

im glad im not the only one who noticed the timer. hopefully kael or someone else is reading this :p

I haven't read the whole thread, but one more thing that absolutely needs to be changed with the enraged mechanic in this scenario are the krakens in the lake/sea to the northeast of the starting position. They are completely harmless if they start with neither enraged nor crazed and completely devastating if they do get one of these via mutations. I guess it was an unintended side-effect of the new enraged mechanic that even barbarian units that don't normally enter one's borders (like animals etc.) suddenly do - if one or both of the krakens get enraged, you will most likely lose all improvements in that area to pillaging, so suddenly the most attractive starting locations become the least attractive.

I also agree on the enraged starting settlers. Other than that, I like the mutation mechanic. (Balseraphs are my favorite civ, after all...)

Oh, and a pet peeve: If there was one less land square in the connection to the southeast, one could connect the lake in the northeast to the rest of the water on the map - I really think this should be made possibly somehow; after all, the Lanun ARE a seafaring civilization.

I think Krakens entered your borders even without the new enraged. I seem to remember them pilliaging my boats in a previous patch.

Well, they did nothing whatsoever (essentially moving around on the same spaces over and over again) for 30 or so turns, until one of them became enraged and suddenly entered my borders, pillaging everything in two or three turns.

Perhaps the Krakens that pillaged you were either HN, behaved differently in an earlier version, or simply weren't barbarian? It's also possible that I might be wrong, of course, but I do think it's something worth looking into - if I'm right, then these Krakens need to be changed somehow.

Great People being born enraged is just plain cruel!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

You don't like Mad Scientists?

Great People being born enraged is just plain cruel!!!! :mad::mad::mad:


this.


Likewise, your heroes being born "weak" "withered" etc.

I mean, I can manage with having to build twice as many LBs etc. just because half of them is either useless or wandering of and getting themselves killed.

but heroes....


Beat it going RoK, and heading north towards the infernals as the first order of business (after getting my ass handed by infernal SoDs in the previous try)

Any real quick tips besides those above? I've never played the Lanun before and the war mechanic doesn't work well with my usual turtle/build approach. I'm thinking of trying to rush to Guybrush and boarding parties to get powerful units (after securing my cities) -- any Lanun-specific techs/strategies that would help? Does it make sense to try to get to OO early on, and if so, why?

Also, is the timer still there in patch "n"? That really needs to be better documented up front, since that sure would have changed my approach if I'd known I were up against a deadline...

I do recommend getting the OO fairly quickly. I wouldn't worry about Guybrush that much. If you get the OO, the cultists of course are very, very tough on the coasts. They Will allow you to hold your own, if near the coast. When you want to go inland it will be much harder.

Another advantage of the OO is that Saverous may be the toughest early hero, and he is quite good against the Infernal, your real opponent -- since Saverous is a demon himself, he doesn't get hit with mutations or the other nasty things that the demons throw at you.

The negative for using the OO is that your units can become manes for the Infernals, who are the 'real' opponent on this map.

Try to get the upgrades for demon slaying and undead slaying. They help balance the overwhelming Infernal power.

For the Lanun, the pirate coves are really powerful. So getting cities on the seas which are NOT in range of the Krakens is very beneficial. Boarding parties are good solid units.

Best wishes,

Breunor

The kraken are a pain, but you can take them out fairly easily after you get cultists. 2 tsunamis and my water-walking cultists had 85% odds against them.

Am I the only one who couldn't use the central lake because the 2 Kraken has Combat 5?
I have no idea how they got that much XP, I hadn't even lost any units to them!
I still won though, the lake isn't that central to the strategy.
I turtled with archers and a few swordsmen until Saverous and Hemah were built. After that it was just mopup. Saverous words wonders against Duke Sallos, demons can't seem to touch that guy. He comes really early too. I promoted Hemah down the Air line and gave him twincast do deal with stacks outside cities. For stacks inside I just him the Tsunami button. Then I cleaned up with some weaker units. You have to move fast so the AI don't get Longbows though. Those are a pain.

Excellent Scenario, I loved it!

Does anyone else automatically raze cities when they capture them with no option to retain the city? It didn't look like it from the previous posts on this thread, I'm not sure what I could be doing to auto-raze. I have the Leaves religion and I'm mostly taking cities with Kithra Kyriel.

Auto-razing cities makes it a little more difficult, as civs you are forced to be at peace with can move in and create their own city in the spot where you just ddefeated one.

Thanks!

Man o man this scenario is crazy... and long (in my case). Didn't go OO but went for Order cuz I was like "sheesh evil dudes everywhere need some cleanup." Not the best strategy. Somehow the Duke had a massive power rating even from the very beginning and I never did catch up to until I got Sphener and four Paladins at level 10 each. Guy Singstar was there and so was the horseman dude for the order (valin phaniel was it?). In any case, those krakens in the lake pretty much just swam around there becuz I didn't bother to improve the water tiles there and instead opted for the outer ones and The Black Wind financed my army for the rest of the game (racking in 36 gpt from 3 coastal cities lols).

So yeah, insane perp decided the wars but I focused on the Duke. Just to give you an idea of how it took me to finish this off. The only victory condition was conquest but at some point, I saw in the upperright hand of the screen the message "100 turns left." At this point, I was like OMFG, conquest has a time limit?!! In any case, by this time, I have razed all of the cities to the north west and split the SoD to take care of the hippus northwest and the clowns southwest and I finished with 75 turns left.

Question: would I have lost if I didn't finish the game by then?

Did anyone else get the feeling the Kraken were actually HN units for Perpentach? I did......

I tried the OO strategy with tsunami initially but I had trouble on some major non-coastal cities (mostly coz my catapults got assassinated).

I found using the Order to be very successful (and won the scenario with it) because of:
1) Crusaders with demon slaying and immunity to disease
2) Paladins as above
3) Confessors with bless
4) Most opponents are AV with some OO so the above work well

This was a hard scenario for me. I played it on Monarch, and had to try 3 times before I make it. The infernals, as everyone else have noticed, are the most powerful civ in this scenario.

The seas were uselless, since there is no way to get rid of the krakens. So, the best Lanun weapon was lost. This was why I lost my first try. Tried OO and sea teach...Plain wrong.

Lanun are basically useless on land, so I decided to go with Order for two reasons:

#1: My main rival was the Infernals, and order has the most demon-slaying fitting units available
#2: Made sure that my losses wouldn't increase the Infernal's power.

I made sure I spread the religion to a few rival cities, hoping this would cut down Infernal reinforces...

My second try failed because I was too slow settling, and didn't produce enough units fast...

Third try was successful. I headed asap for orders from heaven, totally ignored any other techs apart from the religous ones, and pilled up confessors, using bless to stregthen existing units, and after that crusaders.
It appears that this tactic worked, since Perpentach did not consider to have the others declare war on me, as was the case in the previous attempts, and my only problems came when he was calling for all on all. But again, this time I was always in the offensive :).
I built both Valin and Sphener, and once more old Valin was up to the task. With blitz, heroic strength II, commando, supported by the High Priest's healing was a killing machine, and the crucial weapon to clear the infernals.
Sphener, once more, was not so good on the battlefield, mainly because of his inability to get healed by the heal spell...

Putting it in one sentense: Tough but highly enjoyable. Well done!

Foodchain of Momus: The rest -> Infernals -> Chalid

insanely hard. the lanun have really weak units. the hero started with weak... i think i played like the computer in dune 2: built rediculous countities of swordsman and sent them to battle. the infernal are very very strong. they took the map almost immedietly. in the end they had one town left and i had about 15 turns to take it before the scenario ends. and then (THE BUG) perp decided to appeal for nobel peace price and declares peace. so about 5 turns before the end i had to enter the worldbuilder and declare war. i think the last turns should be set to war. great scenario but very very hard.

btw: i played with runes of kilmorph all the game. next time only chalid

This one is really hard. I finally beat it, but strangely, i got the victory text i should have gotten only from betraying perpentach, which i didn't do.

This one is really hard. I finally beat it, but strangely, i got the victory text i should have gotten only from betraying perpentach, which i didn't do.

You trophies are probably messed up from your internal play testing.

Very possible. It was still satisfying to beat.

grrr!!! i find it very annoying not being able to cast tsunami (or whatever the OO priest casts) just because there's 1!!! balseraph unit camping in the city, or just 1 of the tiles in range belongs to them.

You can anyways because the scenario doesn't allow players to declare war on each other in that scenario. I tried it with tsunami in that scenario before.

does tsunami require an ocean nearby?

Lakes work too.

Finally beat this (spent most of the night, then wrapped it up this morning). I think the map is too biased towards OO - I tried several times with FoL, but never got anywhere. First time I played with OO, I won (despite a long fight against Sallos).

Oh yeah and Sallos seems to overpowered, but I guess that is part of the scenario, to have some fun.

That's mostly cause he gets Iron weapons from his palace and most civs turn evil, and when they die he gets Manes.

Went Order and used demonslayer + that female hero to wipe out the Duke, then the rest was rather easy.

Momus is IMO and unfortunatly a terrible scenario :

- Mutated gets tiresome VERY quickly (fun at the beginning of the first time you do it, then booorrrriing)
- Enraged ... ah ! Hated it.
- Much too difficult

I think it's really weird to have a "introduction / tutorial" scenario just before, extremely easy, and then... a extremely hard scenario with no tutorial content whatsoever. Plus, if you don't know how Infernals works (manes), you're screwed.

On the plus side, the made is very well done IMO, and the idea of "random war" is good.

I think the first campaign (Lanun's) should be a tutorial campaign on FFH. First scenario introduced animals and cage, second should introduce "normal buildings and fighting", the third one magic and the last one... well, I am not there yet.

My suggestions (some are heavy) to improve it and make it a tutorial scenario
- Have a pop-up which tells you ASAP "ok, there are infernals, they are bad guys, here is their mecanics, and now you should go Order to kill them because Order brings this, this this
- Eventually have a pop-up explain the other 2 religions that are going to be used in this scenario (AV, OO)
- NO MAGIC. Just the good old sword & axes. Magic would get introduced NEXT scenario (which is hard too, but would be a good way to introduce spells and other).

Other improvement not linked to the "tutorial" thing that could be done :
- Only one kraken in the middle lake. One kraken calls a decision : "use ressources to kill it and be able to exploit the middle lake, or don't waste ressources". Two krakens are just too difficult to break.
- Perpentach sometimes authorising passage through his territory, and sometimes not, more or less randomly. It would "change" the way the map is played without changing the map. It would also make Perpentach expanding more of a problem
- Less mutation. For instance, I might suggest no "natural" mutation, but mutation for any unit entering the territory of perpentach (if it is possible to code, of course). So, then again, decisions : risk the sanity of your army through Perpentach territory, or take the long way.

Went Order and used demonslayer + that female hero to wipe out the Duke, then the rest was rather easy.


Female hero?? You don't mean Valin or Threep, right? They are both male. What female hero there is in Order and Lanun?

I think the Krakens are there on purpose, so that you feel handicapped, forcing the Lanun to go for land battles...:eek:

When I played witout OO, thus not building Asylums, I got no enraged promotions.

The random passage from Perpentach can be a nightmare if you go near the end of the time counter and have no way to pass through to your last remaining enemy.

I also happen to think that it was wrong to place a tutorial scenario before something like the Momus. But I have a different solution.
Just place in the scenario description a note saying "Unlike the previous scenario, this is a challenging scenario and we recommend to lower your difficulty settings if you are a new player".

I think it will do the job perfectly. ;)

I meant Valin. Thought was a girl. Long hair, you see.

Guybrush sure also has long hair. But I played a LOT Monkey Island. I ve killed Lechuck about 15 times as I speak.

When I played witout OO, thus not building Asylums, I got no enraged promotions.

Seriously!?! I went Empyrian, and it seemed like every third unit was enraged. I dealt with it as best I could until Chalid was born crazed, and then I went into the worldbuilder. Heroes really should be immune to that one...

Seriously!?! I went Empyrian, and it seemed like every third unit was enraged. I dealt with it as best I could until Chalid was born crazed, and then I went into the worldbuilder. Heroes really should be immune to that one...

It sounds as if you are using a patch older than "r".

I thought this scenario had a great premises and a lot of fun early on. After a good start I got creamed by the Infernals. Next time they were my prime target. The end game was a bit slow though, mopping the up cities.

"99 turns left" is quite annoying ... :D

About halfway through this one now.

I think the key to beating this scenario is the long grind against Sallos. Almost everyone on my map is AV which means he's over the top while the rest is weak. The fanaticism anti-demon troops might be a good bet here.

In a weird turn of events I decided on RoK and am now using two stacks to gain ground. One slow cat + BP stack under Bambur's command against Furia (Calabim are gone already) and Guybrush with a big Paramander stack against Sallos. So far so good though the Infernal are really difficult to handle.

Hmm, that plan didn't work out as well as I hoped it would.

Junil seems to be a better bet than Kilmorph. I'm going Order next time.

I just started playing FFH2, and was a little overwhelmed by all the options. So I started the scenarios, and am getting it a lot more. By having the player start with some techs, and having them research a little faster than a normal game, the player can see what paths they may want to take earlier.

That said, I agree with most of the gameplay feedback given. The scenario does kind of turn into World War I with Duke Callus. That's somewhat helpful, as assassins, mages, and zealots have much clearer roles. I can see why I'm trying to get mana and for what. That kind of thing. But it's a major timesink. Perhaps having a 400-turn time limit?

... Finally beat this. Had to bust out the heavy guns (Sphener, Paladins) for this one. Sallos was so powerful I juse had to stand my ground with crusaders and Valin until I could get Righteousness from the Tower of Divination. After that however he went down quickly, high-level paladins cut through the Infernals like a hot knife through butter.

And oh, having mutated demerits on your heroes = no fun. Weak Valin = no fun.

Suggestion for this map (and maybe FfH in general): Remove the ability to mutate from heroes.

I didn't like this scenario. Having random war declarations sounds fun, but because there's a 1/3 chance everyone declares war on the strongest player, and a 1/3 chance everyone declares war on everyone, you spend 2/3 of the time at war with anyone anyway, so this scenario doesn't end up being any different than any other FfH game.

Perhaps the "everyone declares war on the strongest player" part could be scrapped? And perhaps even most war declarations could be "everyone against one"? Then instead of taking however much time you want gradually building up a stack of doom, you'd be forced to build mobile strike forces, trying to capture as much cities as possible in a limited time, before you're forced to switch targets. Perhaps you could even let the player know how many turns he has left before another random war declaration happens. Adds to the tension of trying to capture some cities before time runs out again.

"Everyone declares war on the strongest player" is useful during the cleanup phase.

But the problem I think is this scenario (or actually even FfH in general) consists of nothing but:

1) build up stack of doom, while on the defensive against the Infernals
2) boring clean-up phase

Anyway, as the game progresses, the # of players gets reduced, so the difference between "everyone against one" and "everyone against strongest" becomes smaller, and inexistent when there's only one other left.

I loved this scenario, but it was also really irritating.

The insane clown deciding who was at war with who.

First time through, I had one early war with Calibim but no way to close the deal, a very short war with Amurites, ended with them half dead. I then spent the next hundred plus turns at wars with factions on the other side of the map, far enough apart that I was never able to do significant damage before they ended. I had no horses, so speed wasn't a real strong point.

Second time through, I was pissed at the bastard and prepared for the abuse, but I ended up at war with everyone nearly the entire time... Needless to say, it was great. I slew the wicked in wonderful order, defending my vast lands against incursions with just a few longbows and my spanky new luridus I'd just reached when I conquered the infernals and made defense a sticky issue.

Resources.

I researched mithril working twice. No mithril on the entire map. No reagents either. Is the map designed with denial of archmages in mind? Not being able to use archmages and upgrade the insult fighting swashbuckler into a more beefy individual was the main reason I restarted. I'd given the poor bastard the guardsman promotion figuring he'd be able to keep up with things, and all I did was guarantee he'd have a short life once things got tough enough to kill him. I ended up depending on just lightning and fireball for my offensive power, and I was getting worked over real nice on defense because I didn't get to play with those nice elemental summons. :( If that is the design of the map, some sort of warning would be nice. If it's not, the resourcing is really buggered. There was one horse on that first map too, the ride still hadn't been built when I finally got tired of running around in circles after my heroes had been knocked off and my lowly mages were being KO'd by assassins every time they went off a forested hill tile.

Mutate.

I hate the heavy promotion. With a passion. It cost so much money, but I finally decided to make myself a few really really nice boarding parties. I started at the bottom and worked my way through the upgrades, from warrior to boarding party with a stop at radiant guard. Three sets of mutations. My old swordsmen and radiant guard had all become useless or died. I kept getting that damned heavy promotion on my strong, heroic strength, blitz and cannibalize mutated boarding parties, it was terrible. :)

When my sole surviving original swordsman upgraded to a boarding party, I nearly lost it over that mutate. Heroic strength, strong, two movement, and I had nearly maxed out his promotions, then poof, weak and heavy got added... He was still strong enough to kill fortified archers in 90+ defense cities, but it was so sad to see his new blitz promotion go to waste, and his three movement become one tile at a time.

It also hung at the end of the scenario, but I have access to the next one anyway so it doesn't seem to be an actual problem.

If the system conspires against you, this one is a real . .. .. .. .. .. If it cooperates, I can't imagine having an easier time. I had lethal swordsmen and radiant guard that were still cleaning up nicely when the AI was running chariots and ritualists.

Just last weekend I updatet my FfH from .34 to the newest version and now just finished my 2nd scenario: The Momus. And boy, it was freaking exciting, the most exciting game I played for a long time.

It all started fairly nice and smooth, a little war here and there, nothing to bother me continual building up my empire. But then I happend to suddenly have the Infernal in front of my door and hell, it seemed the AI finally got tought how to use the special Infernal abilities. Anyway they produced new units in a rate no other civ could even hope to compete with and therefor were also on the road to victory. Luckily I managed to get control over a city heaving ocean to the leaft and to the right and to fortify this city to a stronghold the AI simply was too stupid to conquer (The Infernals could have managed this, if they either had gathered way more troops befor attacking or if they had created a catapult army. Both was within Infernal power, but as already said not within Infernal foresight).
So again after all the game slowed down, because the Infernal vasted their units consequently in useless attacks against my stornghold and other civs were no worthy opponents any more.

Still, it was going to be one of my most exciting games ever. Why? Because suddenly the game reminded me, that I had only 100 turns left to destroy all my opponents and due the Infernals, who even thou I would eventually destroy them occupied my attention and slowed down my advances, I was really behind schedule. Or to put it in other words: 100 Turns left and I not even had conquered half of the world :eek: It seemed impossible to manage and I began to slightly panic ^^

But I was determined to at least try and therefor send out my troops to crush the Infernal hords. It actually worked and reinforced my glorius army was send out to destroy every city till the last one (there was no point in conquering, destroying was the goal). But I had lost maybe 40 turns on the Infernals, and yet a few Infernal cities on the eastside and three other civs left. No easy task.
So with time running out my troops moved from city to city, leaving nothing behind but dust and ruins. My Hero Sphener with his great ability to heal was the key to a almost continual movement of my army. Without him it all would have been a lot harder than it already had been and I would have surely lost the game. But with him I had a chance until I arrived at the last two cities ... 3 Turns left to play, sweat dropping from my forehead. The second last damaged my troops harshly but they was no time, they had to keep moving, until on the very last turn they reached the last city and under great losses managed to destroy this one, too.

It may sound unlikely, but this is the way it happened, despite my hurrying I took the last one out in the last turn - god that was great, as I never knew, if I really would make it. Every turn gripping and thrilling :D

Thanks for all the fun, FfH-Team, :goodjob:Good Job!

EDIT: I played on "Prince"

So after giving me hell for weeks I finally settled on a strategy that has allowed me to complete this one. I went RoK and Bambur plus a commander has single handedly crushed every other empire along with some Air 2 Mages. I never bothered taking any cities, as my stack moves across the map I just raze everything to the ground.

I am disappointed that Beeri was the first leader to be eliminated. How much story will I miss out on by not joining with him against Perpy?

I think there is just a different ending in The Momus and allowing your cities to become Luchiruip in The Black Tower.

in the end, I just decided that Pillar of Fire was the best strategy here :lol:

I realize that flavor should follow form, but after beating the Black Tower and thinking about it, the story of this scenario kind of annoys me.

I mean, ok, so Falamar goes into the court of Perpentech to get some ships to replace the ones that he lost at the end of the Grand Menagerie so he can go fight Tebryn. Perpentech makes him play an insane game for the boats.

Except the game seems to involve gifting of entire cities and making these people wage some sort of continental war. Even early on in the scenario, before I was anywhere close to beating Sallos, I had an army that dwarfed what I would start with in the Radiant Guard. Why not just build a few Galleons and leave?

The whole "play a game of Perpentech's" only makes sense if it's cheaper to play along than to build your own ships. Lore wise, it would have made much more sense to have some ritualized combat between the protagonists themselves, or at most some sort of mock empire (this would fit in nicely with Perpentech's insanity) where each man's "Kingdom" encompasses like 20 people. A nastier version of Laser tag or something.

But when you look at the demographics page and see that you have an empire of eleven million people...........

My take on this is that you're playing some sort of "virtual" war game for Perpentach (be it through the use of mind magic, happy mushrooms, and/or whatever the Balseraphs use to get their strategy game fix :) ).
The way I see this, everything in the Momus is fictional, except the leaders actually do die when defeated. That would justify your getting all the religious heroes and wonders of Erebus, and huge sprawling cities full of infrastructure for what's pretty much a big Risk-meets-paintball game.

Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has any tips for this map. I am new to FfH2 in general and I want to play through the scenarios but I just cannot get past this one. I read through this thread and beelined for Fanaticism so I could make paladins and Sphener and take out the Infernals early but it didn't work out too well. I have a source of iron right next to one of my cities that I discovered when smelting was researched. I have a mine on it and I am working the tile but I cannot build paladins. I looked at my cities and iron is not being provided to any of them, despite having a mine and working the tile! Also my units are not upgrading to copper weapons even though I have copper, though it is a resource in my cities. I am at my wits end here, any insight on this iron problem or any further tips on this scenario in general would be much appreciated.

For the resource usage thing, did you remember to hook up your mines with roads to your cities? You won't get stratgeic use of the resource until you do, although you would use the production bonuses. Also note that for Iron, you need Smelteing to reveal the iron, but Iron working to use it as a resource.

Personally, I favored the Overlords over the Order. The primary difficulty in the game is survivnig long enough until you can build up a force that can effectively oppose Sallos. With the priests of the overlords, you can hold the coastlines indefinitely, giving you a stable base of production and if you can maneuver correctly, a big punch for your knockout battles.

Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has any tips for this map. I am new to FfH2 in general and I want to play through the scenarios but I just cannot get past this one. I read through this thread and beelined for Fanaticism so I could make paladins and Sphener and take out the Infernals early but it didn't work out too well. I have a source of iron right next to one of my cities that I discovered when smelting was researched. I have a mine on it and I am working the tile but I cannot build paladins. I looked at my cities and iron is not being provided to any of them, despite having a mine and working the tile! Also my units are not upgrading to copper weapons even though I have copper, though it is a resource in my cities. I am at my wits end here, any insight on this iron problem or any further tips on this scenario in general would be much appreciated.

you need iron working tech to have access to iron

There is a typo in the description. It says
"Requires: Successful competion of the Grand Menagerie scenario."

It should say:
"Requires: Successful completion of the Grand Menagerie scenario."

I realize that flavor should follow form, but after beating the Black Tower and thinking about it, the story of this scenario kind of annoys me.

I mean, ok, so Falamar goes into the court of Perpentech to get some ships to replace the ones that he lost at the end of the Grand Menagerie so he can go fight Tebryn. Perpentech makes him play an insane game for the boats.

Except the game seems to involve gifting of entire cities and making these people wage some sort of continental war. Even early on in the scenario, before I was anywhere close to beating Sallos, I had an army that dwarfed what I would start with in the Radiant Guard. Why not just build a few Galleons and leave?

The whole "play a game of Perpentech's" only makes sense if it's cheaper to play along than to build your own ships. Lore wise, it would have made much more sense to have some ritualized combat between the protagonists themselves, or at most some sort of mock empire (this would fit in nicely with Perpentech's insanity) where each man's "Kingdom" encompasses like 20 people. A nastier version of Laser tag or something.

But when you look at the demographics page and see that you have an empire of eleven million people...........

I think of it as smaller in scale than a normal game, and "cities" are more like military outposts, so that you are really in the middle of Perpy's state and can't go anywhere without being destroyed by the normal sized armies.

Yeah, you shouldn't see the scenarios literally like a normal Civ game. I think high populations, Wonders, Heroes and those stuff are present in the scenarios simply to not to break from the regular playability we are all used to.
Of course, if there was a way to keep that and also to keep'em more realistic (lorewise), that would be great.

Well, the scenario has a nice idea, but I found it to be ultra-hard at times. Normally I can beat Monarch at least with FfH, but here I went back to Noble to pass it. This comes from a few aspects:

- The game most of the time starts with all vs. all wars, allowing the Infernals a lot of Manes.
- Then it very quickly switches to "Let's dogpile the Lanun", which isn't fun when the Infernals are so strong. Luckily the Calabim are hardly a factor in the East, but you can be effectively attacked on 2 fronts nonetheless.
- If you don't get Order or Empyrean (or more precisely, their heroes) it's very hard to do anything due to the Mutation - the defenders are just too strong (like 3/7 archers).
- Perpentach is very annoying as he always walks around with units. This sometimes prevents you from using spells like Maelstrom in crucial situations...
- The starting location should generate balanced resources. Horse and thus early Chariots is a big advantage as the tech path leads to Order anyway...

Other than that, nice scenario!

:egypt:

U should use OO, the tsunami spell helps you defending your cities easily. And u can use Maelstrom even if Perp or any other civ is nearby. Just ignore the warning, u cannot cause a war-declaration.same for tsunami. But its true,that the Duke is very strong in this game. He has a good starting location and very weak neighbours with the amurites and the luchuirp. I havent achieved that the Luchuirp survive this yet, they stand no chance aganist the Duke-Deity-Stacks...
I have already completed this scenario but now i wanna retry and let beeri live. Will this count so that i can build his units in the black tower? Or is it too late after completing it first? Anyone knows?

@Imhotep: Spells like maelstrom and tsunami will not declare war on anyone in this scenario so you can beat up Perps units as much as you want with out war.

@schlalex: If you have freed Beeri at any time when you receive the city picker event you can choose the Luchurip to control the city.

Cyther, sorry, did not get u :(. So i play it again and help Beerie, so that in the end there are only him, me and Perp. Then he will offer me to stop fighting or so i read. And it will count for the black tower, even if i finished it before without his survive`?

You are correct, schlalex.

Yeah thx Cyther! Didnt really expect a fan project to be so smart ;)!
Now Tebryn, die to my dwarvs!

I just go with orders and pump out a lot of Crusaders and confessors...I usually just build new units instead of upgrading them because the promotion are all randoms and I don't want to lose too much units..

During mid game the Per makes all CPU declare war on me about 5 times in a roll...I almost got overrun at the eastern side by Duke's units...the other unit are too much as a factor...the Infernals like to use assassin to pick off my mages.

Since there's no gunpowder..it's pretty hard to lay siege to a city.

I think I may have to try this again - got Empyrean, but still got slaughtered by the Infernals - Balors are ouchy with the 5/7 longbows. I was a little annoyed about resources though. I'm assuming it's random but having no mithril, reagents OR gunpowder made it very hard to get anything capable of taking on the infernals.

Try Cultists from OO. The Infernals Capital city lies next to a lake, but CANNOT build naval units. Just go there with 8 Cultists and in a couple of rounds u can take and raze the city, which hurts the Duke a lot!

Whew, played this on Emperor level, won on turn 352, but a bit of a slog! I don't think I could handle this on Deity....

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/44/momusstart.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=momusstart.jpg)

* Should have made a 'canal city'; but as the scenario randomizes resources, I had my only mana node there and desperately needed a 'fire node' for the upcoming battle's. As a result I never bothered with the deadly Kraken's.

* Cities placed next to the north and east mountain passes proved critical to survival. Hawk's placed in each city gave a good 'heads up' warning.

* It's like an 'advanced start', so you can grow quick and get your base of 5 or so cities up and going. I found the starting civic's of God King & Conquest produced a good launching board!

* After studying earlier post's about this scenario, I went OO, held against the Calabim (used them as a buffer), and used Cultist's to take out the lakeside Infernal cities A.S.A.P!!! Thank's Schlalex, that tip was pure platinum!

* Inner Infernal cities on hill's were another story entirely. I made the mistake of trying to fireball my way in; no go bro, you'd need a large mage stack that would take too long to muster. You must use siege to make the opportunities hit quick and deadly, as Perpy keep's changing his mind, and you need a good roll at the Duke as he is very powerful both militarily and culturally, and will only get stronger!

* With OO, I used Saverous and the unreliable Lunatic's initially to hold back the hordes (in conjunction with Cultist's & Adept's). Once Dr Zoidberg and his clones came on tap I started really breaking out and razing. All unit's had to have the Mobility1 promo, especially to out-maneuver the slow Infernal, since I started with no horse resource. Actually, there were no horses on the entire map!

* At first, I was shocked and dismayed when I initially had mass war declared on me. Later, I was begging for war, just so I could get some progress going.

* Once the damn Infernal were taken out, I re-focused my main army to sweep east along the shoreline. That's when the Lanun World Spell did it's damage to speed thing's along!

* Sailed the Black Wind around to Cpt. Uldanor (who for some reason felt he had to maintain 10+ Galley's outside his capital) and just perpetually feasted....

* Beeri managed to stay alive with his single city. Yay!!, 'cause there's little I could do to help him if the crap hit the fan....

Overall, a good challenge. After the easy intro scenario, I was jolted out of my short lived complacency! :goodjob:

Finally beat this one on like Chieftain/Settler with a power stack of turtle knights and Chalid. Was still a little close in terms of turns. My only advice is to play defensive initially, and to capture Duke Sallos's cities at every opportunity, and then raze the others' cities. If you're lucky, you'll get horses, and then horsemen will make an easy, early rush, otherwise, stack archers. You might also want to play to Chaos nodes with the intent of culling for army full of desirable mutants.

Is Baron Duin Halfmorn not buildable in this game? I rushed Feral Bond (which is my usual strategy when stuck as the Lanun without any real water), but I can't build him. I doubt that it was built by anyone else, as I am the second most advanced in tech next to Perpentach.


Also, I haven't noticed any change in difficulty between Chieftain and Noble. I was at the same position on Noble, iirc my units were building at the same rate, and the Infernal are still 20 times as powerful as everyone else (yet they sit and turtle instead of attacking anyone).

EDIT: Just beat it. The key in this scenario (as far as I'm concerned) is Guybrush Threepwood. He's your first major hero, and with enough backup through mages and beastmasters, you can steamroll basically every city in the game within 3 turns of arrival. There's another good hero along the stretch that will allow you to wage war in two places at once, and beserkers will help to back him up. (Astrikal something)

as has been said, kill the Infernal ASAP so that you have the option of razing cities. I took the cities of the Hippus and the lower left civ (simply because I needed presence in that area in order to gain leverage on the Amurites). There will be a couple of civs that only have one or two cities (vamps, top right balseraphs, the triplets for me). The Infernal and Amurites are your biggest enemies (Amurites will constantly raid your left cities), and Beeri will usually stay clear of you (and will join the Overcouncil if you join it).

Was Chalid the other hero?

Chalid was my other hero, yes.

but that was before I was fully updated lol :P

I could have done it all with guybrush. Chalid just sped things up.

This was challenging at the start but after a couple of attempts I built the library from supplies and put all efforts into researching iron working. Got there pretty quickly and thanks to a early hut and couple of useful dungeons picked up trade and a great prophet and sage. Captured the two cities to the east quickly and started producing catapults and swordsmen like no tomorrow. Then once iron working came in produced a handful of boarding parties, guybrush and a couple of adepts to boost attack turns. The infernals had been fighting hard with the hippus and had depleted each other - walked over them quickly. The rest was a formality and won with 46 turns left. Got a bit monotonous once the infernals were destroyed, just a race against time to sweep across the map - there was no stopping guybrush and the boarding parties after catapults had done their job. Always reinforcing with 60 % city attack swordsmen at the end. 7 cities throughout all up.

Just finished this mod... 11 hours and some change and it was NOT a pretty victory.

Started out in bad spots because I saw borders almost as soon as I moved my settlers. Set up some choke points and focused on building. Got some good defensive buffs on my starting units and then set in for the long haul.

I tried to beeline for OO, but got beat by a couple turns by Perpenach. Picked it up anyway and built up a bit more defense. This is where I made my biggest mistake... I didn't focus on the Duke quickly enough. When he took out the Amurites I sent a bird flying over his direction and the SoDs he had roaming through his lands were scary. Constantly being supplied with more and more troops didn't make it any better :(

At this point I just had to start abusing him however possible. I just threw cultists up into his back area (the unsailable lake) and along his coast that linked to the central lake. When I finally built up a force of boarding parties and Saverous things started picking up. My cultists, Hemah, and a stack of Stygian Guards would roam about behind enemy lines bombarding his massive stacks and Sav and the boarding parties would slog through his weakened ground troops.

It was brutal. I lost The Black Wind to a roving stack of about 5 Privateers (ugh) and Guybrush Threepwool died quite unceremoniously when he was en route to fight with a far flung foe and Perp declared all players to be at war with me. I think there were two or three 20 stacks right next to him. Setbacks aside, I ever so slowly I pushed onward though and then I researched Mithril Working. Ugh! The ONLY source on the map was right by the Duke's capitol! That was all it took. As our friend the Duke pushed elsewhere in an all out war phase, I snuck about four cultists, six stygians and Hemah into the top lake and a fair size stack of boarding parties, mercenaries, and crossbows within striking distance. I crushed his capitol and then razed the two cities nearby to push back his cultural boundaries enough to get the Mithril.

After that it was just an issue of waiting for my troops to get where I needed them so I could raze town after town.

In the end it was a fun scenario but I'm VERY glad I finished it! Hopefully I never have to play it again! ;)

BTW, ended on turn 421... never got a timer saying X amount of turns left. Was it removed in one of the patches?

Wow, I just lost this scenario on turn 660 on Marathon Deity. I was winning darn it! But getting massive armies of catapaults and Swordsmen takes time darn it! That time restriction is silly!

I managed to beat this scenario after a few unsuccessful tries. I decided my biggest mistake the first few times around was spreading my teching around too much, so this time I beelined to phalanxes and just turtled with three or four cities while defending with archers and all the defensive structures (palisade, walls, archery range). Managed to get a handful of useful wonders like form of the titan, heron throne, and city of slums. Once I got phalanxes I sent them up north with cats and some boarding parties to conquer the infernals who were way ahead in score. I then began teching bowyers to get longbowmen for better defense in the cities I'd be taking. Looking back, it would have gone a lot faster if I had just razed the cities as I'd gone. I adopted OO when it spread to my cities and trained a bunch of cultists and heal my SOD and cast tsunami when I approached coastal cities. For the late game I pretty much steamrolled every other civ with lightning-fast precision, but it took a while, there being so many cities on the board.

I like this scenario pretty much as is. I can't think of many improvements that need to be made to it except for the time counter. That really needs to go. I managed to finish with 16 turns to go and with the way the scenario is set up to keep the balance of power see-sawing so much that's not really fair.

Played on Emperor, and had tons of fun. I was actually a little sad at the end since it meant the game would be over.

I've just "upped" my level to Emperor, so I was not used to the AI beating me in score and tech'ing/building so fast. Was trying to research OO and build Heron Throne, but got beat to it (other civs got to them after only a couple of turns into the game!). That was a trend that was going to repeat itself: all the good wonders/techs would be researched before I had a chance to do so.

The krakens scared the heck out of me, and my one pirate cove in the middle lake was quickly destroyed, so I gave up on that. But the pirate coves in the Maelstrom lake turned out to be great -- this was my first "real" time playing Lanun, and I can see their appeal now!

I took 1 city from the civ to my right, then Pent changed the rules and we all moved up and I took a city from Beeri, and then another change and this time I took 1 city from the Amurites, and then I focused on them till they were conquered.

At first I was gifting cities to Pent, but then he was getting really powerful and I wasn't sure if I was going to need to take him out, so I stopped that.

I eventually decided to beeline to Bowyers and got to Longbows way before everyone else (other than Pent, he beat me to everything I think). Which was really lucky, since by the time I crushed the Amurites the Infernals had already killed Beeri and were truly scary... way ahead in score! So I knew I had to take them out soon.

Fortunately, Tsunami is silly over-powered. And the infernals didn't have Longbowmen yet... phew! I took over their capital pretty quickly, lost some adepts to assassins, then had to build and move up some slow catapults. The ritualist's Ring of Fires were really annoying though... you have to suffer a lot of damage (since cats only move 1 then can't bombard before getting hit) before finally taking out the inland Infernal cities.

Fortunately Saverous (I went OO... seemed very RP-appropriate) and Guy were helpful, as well as some Boarding Parties with good mutations and lots of City Raider promotions.

After a long hard-fought campaign vs the Infernals, the rest was pretty straightforward...

... or would have been except for Pent. His capital was a huge culture-generating machine, and was starting to swallow up my newly-conquered cities. I had to stop my war campaign and put 100% into culture, and build every culture-related building. And I couldn't retaliate... arggh. Only at the very end did I realize I could have used the cultists to sabotage his capital's worker improvements and get some minor relief. It was a real challenge to hold onto my nearby captured cities, and after a long while I was finally able to lower culture back to only 20%.

Was a little surprised to see that I had no access to Horses. In fact, the only spot that had horses was right next to Pent. Then at the very end, about 20 turns before the end of the game, I finally tech'ed to Archmages, only to discover I had no reagents... d'oh! Oh well, didn't need them. My Mages + Cultists took out city defenses and did enough AoE that even my weak-strenght units (like mages) could take out the defenders. :)

I didn't get a single enraged mutation, though the "Heavy" mutation was a real pain. Moving from one city to another was slowwww...

Anyhow, great scenario. This was not my second scenario though... it seemed way too scary when I read the description, so I went and did many of the other scenarios before coming back to this one. And looking at it now, I would have been decimated if I played this as my second scenario. I didn't even really know the rule after playing the "Menagerie", other than "capturing animals is fun!" ;)

Seems like we need a guide on a good order to play the scenarios in.

Are Pirate Cove immprovements removed for this scenario? Have they been removed altogether for the latest build? Is there a tech or civic I need before my workers can build them?

Are Pirate Cove immprovements removed for this scenario? Have they been removed altogether for the latest build? Is there a tech or civic I need before my workers can build them?

Pirate coves are built by workboats, not by workers. They worked when I played it, they should be available at the start of this scenario.

Best wishes,

Breunor

I'm an idiot. Right after posting it hit me that as a Naval oriented Civ the ports would probably be water improvements. Yeah the work boats make the ports just fine. I got confused from some of the posts in the strategy thread. I also never realized work boats could do anything other than explore and claim resources. Thanks dude.

I thought this scenario was awesome.
This was the second game i'd ever played with fall from heaven, so I had little clue about how to beat it or play as the lanun. I didn't know about pirate coves, and I didn't know about tsunami, or about spring to turn deserts to plains. So consequently i had only 3 total cities, marginally sucky too. I also had no clue about techs or religion, so I got the kilmorph religion for no apparent reason.
But.... i did a great job turtling and getting my heroes to high levels, until i managed to take the duke's cities. Man that was tough. His guys were 8s and mine were 6s, so i pretty much had to kill each of his units with my two dwarf heroes and guybrush. I had no clue how to use magic, or that fireballs could bombard, so i had to spend all my resources on catapults. Trying to make it the 6 tiles into duke's culture to reach his cities with you catapults is a pain, especially when he seems to have infinite assassins. I think i reloaded my saves about a million times here. In the end i had to form a square around my catapults to get them to his cities, and even then i still lost about 20 for each city.
Just after killing the duke, beeri, the red guy to your right, and half finishing the blue and green guys, the game told me i lost. Pshhhh. I reloaded, went into world builder and won it by deleting all the enemy units.

Still, I think i will play it again, knowing what i know now.
What is the purpose of keeping beeri alive? Why, and how?

I thought this scenario was awesome.
This was the second game i'd ever played with fall from heaven, so I had little clue about how to beat it or play as the lanun. I didn't know about pirate coves, and I didn't know about tsunami, or about spring to turn deserts to plains. So consequently i had only 3 total cities, marginally sucky too. I also had no clue about techs or religion, so I got the kilmorph religion for no apparent reason.
But.... i did a great job turtling and getting my heroes to high levels, until i managed to take the duke's cities. Man that was tough. His guys were 8s and mine were 6s, so i pretty much had to kill each of his units with my two dwarf heroes and guybrush. I had no clue how to use magic, or that fireballs could bombard, so i had to spend all my resources on catapults. Trying to make it the 6 tiles into duke's culture to reach his cities with you catapults is a pain, especially when he seems to have infinite assassins. I think i reloaded my saves about a million times here. In the end i had to form a square around my catapults to get them to his cities, and even then i still lost about 20 for each city.
Just after killing the duke, beeri, the red guy to your right, and half finishing the blue and green guys, the game told me i lost. Pshhhh. I reloaded, went into world builder and won it by deleting all the enemy units.

Still, I think i will play it again, knowing what i know now.
What is the purpose of keeping beeri alive? Why, and how?

Its been a long time since I played the Momus (and I agree it is really good, I think it is one of my 2 or 3 favorites) but I think there is a time limit - so you may have lost to the time limit.

If Beeri is alive at the end you can gang up on Perpentech with him. If you win, iirc, Beeri helps you in a later scenario.

Best wishes.

Breunor

FWIW, patch j. The scenario locked up as I captured my last rival's remaining city. I was able to get out with Task Manager. As usual, the SoD's behavior was strange. When I approached Dis, 20+ of the Duke's finest left the city. I walked right in uncontested and eliminated the Infernals. A stack of Beeri's warriors sat a couple of tiles away as I leisurely besieged and finally razed his cities.

Played this on Noble (Normal) and enjoyed it a lot. Got crushed the first time, figured it out the second time. Used a specific strategy that made it much easier. I felt it was a spell tutorial.

Won on Noble, after what initially looked like a dicey thing against the Infernals (had to reload from save points a couple of times).

After the Infernals fell it was a cakewalk, although I was running out of turns at the end. I went clockwise around the board and wiped everyone else out. I took Beeri out along the way, so I didn't get to see the story choice with him at the end--I'm kinda sad about that. He sent guys to attack me though, so I wasn't feeling very friendly toward him or anything.

Theres a bit of luck in this scenario, imo. I had mulitiple, consecutive rounds of everyone at war with me :(

Fun scenario, but needs to be shorter! I just lost my second attempt, this was due to the time running out because I didn't feel like wiping the other half of the map. The only other civ left was the Infernals and they had infinite assassins that would kill any catapult or mage I built the same turn I teleported them to the front line city. This got extremely tedious as I had no heroes left alive and the Infernal had longbowmen...taking cities was boring.

I would suggest chopping this down to half the size it currently is and toning down the Infernals a bit. It took me all day of playing to finally lose to time running and I'm not going to play it again. Worldbuilder to the rescue!

Just finished this myself. I felt it was too long, but not *overly* difficult. I set up my cities almost exactly like Kiwi Tyrant up there, except I had an extra city on the peninsula. Set up a defensive wedge on my right side, then built up waiting for war. My stacks frequently found the enemy's SoD trying to sneak by, and took them out. 2 cities focused on Boarding Parties (later switched to Longbows to defend new cities), one on siege, one on religion (RoK), and one on magic which later filled spots. With siege, it was an easy... but loooooooong... game.

Early hero helped. As did the Spring spell & economic techs. Wish I knew about the secret ending, though. :( I stomped the Luchuirp before going for a final Infernal city on the far coast that was acquired by early conquest.

I started the game and rushed Runes of Kilmorph, since I figured Foreign trade was useless, and I needed a stable solo economy. This worked very well, especially since it allowed me to remain neutral and druids helped me greatly. The main problem I had during conquest(after knocking out the Infernals before they get champions atleast), is that perpentachs culture destroy any chance that a lot of cities will ever grow, and he easily absorbed 4 of my conquered cities in no time. The Mercenary wonder really helped this game get past conquering Malakim, Amurites, and Infernal. Infernal lands also have really great production. I was running God King in the begining to steal a lot of the nice early wonders, especially Heron Throne. The first 100-200 turns were pretty much turtling and trying to get as many adepts and mages with Maelstrom and fireballs to whittle down those stocks, and the two Kilmorph heroes REALLY helped, especially since Bambur can repair catapults. Another great thing about running Kilmorph is getting Iron weapons before anyone else with wonders, and trading one of those iron to Perp is usually a good idea.

Oh, don't know if this is a bug, but turn 405 in both my playthroughs(warlord and Monarch difficulty) was tremendously slow, but all turns before and after were fine.

I played this scenario a while back, and I really enjoyed it (it was actually the first real game of FFH I ever played). The first time I played it, I lost a truly epic war to the Infernals, and then in my second game, I won, but I found to be a bit too easy after the Infernals were gone. I never fought Perpentach, as I did not get the event.

Finished this quite smoothly on Noble. The start was a bit rough, but I had a very weak Civ to the right from me. Basically, I played very defensively and beelined to OO and Priesthood. The first phase existed of using Drowns to steal workers (even if you don't get them home, it still slows the others down). I also lucked out on being able to found two other religions, allowing me to build up several temples and stack Priest specialists in one city to get a few levels of the Altar early on.

Once I got to Stygian guards and Cultists, the game was pretty much over. Tsunami works wonders on this map and the water walking makes it so that you can send out small stacks of cultists without any support to destroy enemy lands and pick off weak units for free exp.

The only real problem were the Amurites, though mostly because I aimed for them early on (the were directly above me). They only had one city, but on top of the defending stack was a very high level Firebow with magic resistance/immunity.

Don't think I've seen anything else than All vs Lanun or All vs All though, except for an All vs Beeri run that lasted much longer than Beeri did.

I ran this on noble difficulty. It was easy at the start. Perpentach forced everyone against the Hippus. They were weakened but not destroyed. When the Momus forced them all against me, I destroyed the Calabim and Hippus. I won out the end. I'd give it an 8.9/10. Very enjoyable. I was thinking of hosting an RP multiplayer game with a theme like this in mind.