Post your feedback for this scenario here.

Finished it up and enjoyed it, despite a few cosmetic issues:
Baron Duin Halfmorn's name is the name of the link (_TXT thingy, I don't recall it exactly.)
Upon defeating Volanna, it said she refused to recognize the Winter Court. I'm assuming you modified the Svartalfar version, but neglected to change it to Summer Court.
The end text was "Coming Soon!"

Still playing this scenario(and enjoying it) and I have the same problem with the Baron's name (just to confirm ;))

The end text was "Coming Soon!"

It isnt added yet. Here it is, but only read it if you've already beaten the Splintered Court scenario as the Ljosalfar (no cheating!)


Faeryl was laid to rest with the honors due an elven queen. Though many argued against a funeral for an enemy leader, Arendel had demanded it. As controversial as it had been no one questioned it now and the massive funeral was properly somber and respectful.

The former Svartalfar that swore allegiance to the summer court were invited to attend. For the first time in two ages the Svartalfar and Ljosalfar united in a common task, even if it was to mourn the death of the winter queen. They stood up and eulogized her and Svartalfar and Ljosalfar alike shed tears for Faeryl. Even Arendel stood and spoke lovingly of her sister, the fallen queen.

That night the funeral procession passed through the streets of Evermore as starlight glistened off of the silver and mithiril coffin. As was tradition her coffin was displayed within the temple of leaves for the night and then moved to the hidden tomb used to house elven royalty in the morning. By morning thousands of gifts were brought to the temple and laid around the coffin.

Just before dawn horns summoned all the citizens of Evermore to the cities grand plaza. Once everyone was gathered Arendel came out onto the palace balcony and addressed them.

"We must not forget. We must not forget our legends, the days spent within this very wood as the children of Sucellus and Cernunnous. We must not forget that age we spent on our own as a single elven nation and the trials and fortune we shared. And we must not forget that we turned to war with each other."

"Every memory we have is shared, every glory, every defeat. We are one people, and we were even as we killed each other."

"Long ago, Sucellus annointed two queens to lead us so that the passions of one person could not lead our empire into ruin as happened with the empire of men. But this split led to civil war."

"Through prayer and careful deliberation with the priests, sages and captains of both former empires we have decided to form a new high council. That there would be two elven queens and an elven king to lead us. That these leaders would rule year round within their own nations and that they would come together to decide matters for the empire."

"I will be the queen of Evermore, head of the temples and over the monuments and artifacts of our empire. I will tend to the orchards and provide for the musicians, artists and craftsmen. Brave Amelanchier will be annointed as king and assigned our army, given provision over our forts and made responsible for our defense. He will also take charge of our hunters and be responsible for the lands untended within our borders. Thessa will be annointed as queen and responsible for all manners of study, arcane or mundane as well as diplomacy and trade with other lands. If military action is to occur outside of our empire then it will be under her leadership."

"If you are a child of Sucellus then you are a member of our empire. A particular faith is not a requirement and the former Svartalfar are equal in every way to other citizens. The war is over and if we are to shed tears then we must do so together. If we are angry then we must be angry with ourselves. As mighty Sucellus was destroyed by winter and split apart until Nantosuelta gathered his pieces for his ressurection, so are the Ljosalfar. Now rejoined we are reborn, and I pray that will ever be so."

As dawn struck the plaza the Ljosalfar palace seemed to glow with with an aura of gold and white. It was a new world for the Ljosalfar and they couldn't help but feel hopeful that it would be a kinder world than they had known for centuries.


That night, after the coronation of Thessa and Amelanchier and seeing them off to their remote capitals Arendel retired to her personal chambers. After checking the magical wards that protected the rooms she removed her amulet and watched in the mirror as the illusion melted away. Her long blond hair shortened to wavy black. Her skin paled to cool alabaster. Her body shifted from the lean beautiful form of the elven queen to her own more sensual and curved body.

Far away, beneath the great red oak of Evermore, within the hidden elven tomb, behind powerful guards and locked within a silver and mithirl box the real Arendel screamed.

Not a fan of this one. Seems a bit too random. I got one of my three cities conquered early on by Gilden Silveric. I was maybe 15 turns into the game, and didn't exactly have a lot to defend myself with.

Also, why are the svartalfar leaders weaker than the ljosalfar? And forced to use the 'no religion' of CoE seems a little unfair.

I had the same problem with Duin's text as well. It just says "TXT_KEY_LEADER_DUIN" Kind of annoying to look at.

Not a fan of this one. Seems a bit too random. I got one of my three cities conquered early on by Gilden Silveric. I was maybe 15 turns into the game, and didn't exactly have a lot to defend myself with.

Also, why are the svartalfar leaders weaker than the ljosalfar? And forced to use the 'no religion' of CoE seems a little unfair.

I too was defeated by Silveric, though not that early. But I know that you are not forced to use CoE, I started by researching Fellowship and both me and all my allies switched to it immediately.

playing as faeryl, i just finished this scenario. will have to do it again soon, but more on that later.

CoE to me wasn't such a big deal, but then again i beelined assassins -> rangers -> shadows. The sinister promo made sure even my normal assassins and rangers were more than a match for the Ljos defenders.
Once Azalkan and my shadows got up and running, i simply cleared every Ljos city over and over again, while my allies did the actual capturing. My own upkeep would go up with over 20 gold on each city capture, so i stuck with a small empire for the researching.

after defeating amelachier (sp) i offered him to duin, although the werewolves never decently joined the fight. However, when i won the scenario, the pop-up said duin had won a conquest victory! resulting in a loss for me, without marking the scenario as won.

I tried this one again, this time as Thessa instead of Volanna. When I defeated the last Svartlafar I got the message "has won a Conquest Victory" and "Wins a Conquest Victory" flashed at the bottom of the screen. It appears I lost, and whoever won has no name. (Last time it said Duin won, listing the whole textkey.)

I've won this scenario with all leaders, yet have not got the trophy. Help?

Found Yggdrasil and corn on the same tile. Is it intended?

I too was defeated by Silveric, though not that early. But I know that you are not forced to use CoE, I started by researching Fellowship and both me and all my allies switched to it immediately.

Hmm, researched FoL as well, but neither of my allies changed to it. Does only one civ get the free disciple?

1) Playing as the Ljosalfar - another civ build Guilden Silveric and while he is still alive I can build the Shrine of the Champion
2) Same game: I received a Thane of Kilmorph from a dungeon - and tried to found Runes in a city - the Thane was consumed and the message that Runes of Kilmorph was founded was displayed but the religion was not founded. This was with patch a

Save available if needed :)

I tried this one again, this time as Thessa instead of Volanna. When I defeated the last Svartlafar I got the message "has won a Conquest Victory" and "Wins a Conquest Victory" flashed at the bottom of the screen. It appears I lost, and whoever won has no name. (Last time it said Duin won, listing the whole textkey.)

I had the same problem while playing Faeryl Viconia. The first time it said that baron duin won the game, so i wiped him out too. Then it just said " wins the game". That was kind of frustrating.

I love the scenarios, though, really entertaining!

Horses spawned on top of unique feature and only the tag of the feature remained.

Is it intentional that this (and also the lambruscum) scenario use the standard civ4 terrian graphic set?

Hmm, researched FoL as well, but neither of my allies changed to it. Does only one civ get the free disciple?

No, all civs should get it. Fellowship of Leaves was the first tech I went for so I got it only a few turns after Council of Esus was founded (through scripting I imagine). When I got the disciple it arrived in the Esus holy city and I didn't want to risk failing to spread Fellowship of Leaves (that failure chance is one of the most annoying things in the entire game). Both my allies actually changed to Fellowship of Leaves before I even had a Leaves city.

Played about 200 turns of it, and while the description said I'd be getting immigrants from time to time which could be outfitted as different units, none have shown up so far. Also I could build Shrine of the Champion while Alazkan was still alive (not built by me though).

I also encountered the problem of victory being granted to the Baron after finally winning as the Ljosalfar.

Happened to me as Faeryl too.

Won as the Svaltafar. Partly by using Gibbon Goetia to dominate all enemy defenders one by one, but partly by fair means too.

Aside from the bugs people have already reported, I wasn't able to build Alazkan even though I beelined for him. I think maybe as soon as my team discovered Poisons, someone else on the team started building him before my turn even came up and that made him unavailable as a building choice to me (even though I think I could've won the race). I don't know if it's possible to fix that.

I really liked the No Settlers option - that prevented it from becoming as long and tedious as Momus. This would be a great solution to the problems with Momus too. However, there was one event that kept coming up and offering me settlers. That was a pretty big imbalance.

Oh, and one more problem. The Svaltafar leaders are too hot. Please fix this. It distracts from the scenario :lol:

Oh, and one more problem. The Svaltafar leaders are too hot. Please fix this. It distracts from the scenario :lol:

That was probably the point.

Yeah, when you have a permanent ally of the same civ they will often start building your hero before you can, thus blocking you.

You know, the way the Shrine of the Champion currently works you can build it if your hero is still alive but under someone else's control. Hmm...I wonder if you could resurrect your hero too.



I find it odd that Rivanna the Wraith Lord is female. I'd be ok with just changing the title, but I think it might be better if there was one male Svartalfar leader.

I never have a problem with building the hero before my allies. The only problem I have is being unable to win the scenario. I've played as each leader and I always get, "Duin has won a conquest victory," or, "Has won a conquest victory." I've read some people have won the scenario and I'm wondering how they did it. Its the only unlocked scenario I haven't completed :(

When I started this scenario, I found Yggdrasil on a raw mana node. Seems kind of... not helpful? Is it intentional?

EDIT: Also seconding that being completely unable to build Gilden Silveric is extremely annoying.

I've strarted this scenario twice as the Ljo, both times Yggdrasil was on an innapropriate resouce (I think wheat and the corn) so I decided to WB in the fruit. I've also had the AI complete my heroes before I get a chance, it happened with Yvain and Gilden. I went ahead and deleted Yvain from Thessa and gave him to myself, it seemed fair :).

When I started this scenario, I found Yggdrasil on a raw mana node. Seems kind of... not helpful? Is it intentional?

EDIT: Also seconding that being completely unable to build Gilden Silveric is extremely annoying.
I've strarted this scenario twice as the Ljo, both times Yggdrasil was on an innapropriate resouce (I think wheat and the corn) so I decided to WB in the fruit. I've also had the AI complete my heroes before I get a chance, it happened with Yvain and Gilden. I went ahead and deleted Yvain from Thessa and gave him to myself, it seemed fair :).

No, I don't think its intentional. I've never seen it myself but I've read about it happening to several people now. I've never experienced the problem of my allies building heroes before me, this also seems to be a problem plaguing alot of people. I must be super special :crazyeye: I hope they can find a work around for it.

I'm wondering if it has to do with who starts researching the tech to a particular hero. For example; Poisons to get Alazkan, you begin researching it before your allies do. Once your team gains Poisons you gain access to build Alazkan first. If your allies are researching it before you and gain the tech. Your team gets Poisons but they get first dibs on building them (And often start on him right away). This is just a theory though, I've never had problems with my allies building heroes before me.

It is caused by the turn order. Your ally starts his/her turn before you do and therefore gets to begin building the hero first, the same applies to wonders.

I think all the scenarios are set up to generate random resources, which deletes the ones that were preset along with the world improvements in the scenario file. (Now that I think of it the resources in Fall of Cuantine and Into the Desert always seem the same, so I guess this is only true for some scenarios. I know it is true of the Spintered Court and The Cult though.)

---------------

From what I hear, techs are researched at the end of a player's turn, and so become available to other teammates before they are available to the one who actually researched it. If a teammates starts building it before you can you are just our of luck.

It is caused by the turn order. Your ally starts his/her turn before you do and therefore gets to begin building the hero first, the same applies to wonders.
From what I hear, techs are researched at the end of a player's turn, and so become available to other teammates before they are available to the one who actually researched it. If a teammates starts building it before you can you are just our of luck.

Seems like I got it the wrong way around then :lol: I was close ish.

I think all the scenarios are set up to generate random resources, which deletes the ones that were preset along with the world improvements in the scenario file. (Now that I think of it the resources in Fall of Cuantine and Into the Desert always seem the same, so I guess this is only true for some scenarios. I know it is true of the Spintered Court and The Cult though.)

Sort of a pain in the backside really, doesn't stop me from enjoying the scenarios though :D

I think all the scenarios are set up to generate random resources, which deletes the ones that were preset along with the world improvements in the scenario file.World improvements are a different setting, though they can be random as well.
It's likely that the two you mentioned are the only ones with set resources. That's how I usually prefer to do it, but random seemed better for Wages of Sin and Against the Grey.

World improvements are a different setting, though they can be random as well.
It's likely that the two you mentioned are the only ones with set resources. That's how I usually prefer to do it, but random seemed better for Wages of Sin and Against the Grey.

If you don't mind me asking, are we to expect the same issue in Wages of Sin and Against the Grey when they're released? Or is it too early to tell yet? :mischief:

I assume you mean this issue?
I've strarted this scenario twice as the Ljo, both times Yggdrasil was on an innapropriate resouce (I think wheat and the corn) so I decided to WB in the fruit. I've also had the AI complete my heroes before I get a chance, it happened with Yvain and Gilden. I went ahead and deleted Yvain from Thessa and gave him to myself, it seemed fair .That's not scenarios specific, it'll occur on any scenario/map with random resources and set world improvements that yield resources. Probably an issue with the resource placement that needs to be fixed; I've seen crashes (during map generation) that I assume resulted in random resource placement, actually, because they wouldn't happen the next time.
Wages of Sin and Against the Grey, most really, don't have improvements that should yeiled a specific resource, so they shouldn't see this; Yggdrasil stands out in that regard.

I assume you mean this issue?
That's not scenarios specific, it'll occur on any scenario/map with random resources and set world improvements that yield resources. Probably an issue with the resource placement that needs to be fixed; I've seen crashes (during map generation) that I assume resulted in random resource placement, actually, because they wouldn't happen the next time.
Wages of Sin and Against the Grey, most really, don't have improvements that should yeiled a specific resource, so they shouldn't see this; Yggdrasil stands out in that regard.

Ahhh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me :)

I just defeated Volanna as Amelanchier(Gilden is spectacular) and the event concerning Duin called me the winter court, though the option called me the summer court.

BTW is there a reason Falamar is on the map?

A couple minor annoyances playing this scenario:

- My allies would build every hero before I could. Even the turn I researched the technology before the game had cycled back to me one of my allies' cities would already have Yvaine, etc. in their queue. Very frustrating.

- All 3 Summer court leaders are full leaders with 2 traits, but only Faeryl on the Winter court is a "full" leader. This seems a bit imbalanced. Rivanna/Volanna should be made into full leaders and maybe 1 (or both) set Neutral rather than Evil so that their team has access to druids as well.

Anyway, fun scenario. I wish there were some more scenario-specific events in this one.

- My allies would build every hero before I could. Even the turn I researched the technology before the game had cycled back to me one of my allies' cities would already have Yvaine, etc. in their queue. Very frustrating.

- All 3 Summer court leaders are full leaders with 2 traits, but only Faeryl on the Winter court is a "full" leader. This seems a bit imbalanced. Rivanna/Volanna should be made into full leaders and maybe 1 (or both) set Neutral rather than Evil so that their team has access to druids as well..

1) A quick fix is switch your allies off the tech a turn before you finish the tech so you can build it first.

2) The 2 Svartalfar minor leaders have speacial units. Volanna starts with a hunter with hero, and Rivanna starts with a Great Commander. These can become very powerful if used correctly.

BTW is there a reason Falamar is on the map?

Well if he weren't then how would he ever get a chance to score with 5 elven chicks?

Well if he weren't then how would he ever get a chance to score with 5 elven chicks?

:rolleyes::lol::lol::rolleyes::mischief:

Hmm...I finally won but got the message "Has won a conquest victory" And now i've actually lost...How do I win?

You wait for the next patch then start over and WB in a handful of units next to all three of your opponent's starting positions.

Both times I got the even that let me purchase units the units appeared in a city nowhere near the one where the event occurred. The first time the event happened in my third city and the unit appeared in my second, and the second time (after my third city was captured by Arendel Phaedra) it appeared in my capital.


Edit: Also, I can't see, to get the actual trophy for this scenario. I think I had it a while back, but was removed by a patch and won't come back no matter how much I cheat.

Is there supposed to be any ending text for when you win as a Svartalfar? I only had any ending text appear for the Ljosalfar.

Edit: Patch F btw.

I really liked the two new Svartalfar leaders, they should really be made available in the main game. If nothing else, then through an option such as unrestricted leaders.

Other than that, well, it was fun enough, though my allies were pretty useless. They just sat there, really.

What does Volanna's sinister trait do, btw?

I really liked the two new Svartalfar leaders, they should really be made available in the main game. If nothing else, then through an option such as unrestricted leaders.

...

What does Volanna's sinister trait do, btw?

Kael is working on making minor leaders come into the game when you make a colony.

All Svartalfar leaders have the sinister trait. It grants recon units the Sinister promotion, which gives +1 attack strength.

I really liked the two new Svartalfar leaders, they should really be made available in the main game. If nothing else, then through an option such as unrestricted leaders.

Other than that, well, it was fun enough, though my allies were pretty useless. They just sat there, really.

What does Volanna's sinister trait do, btw?

Sinister is a civilization trait, any leader of the Svartalfar has it. Every unit in the Recon line automatically gets the Sinister promotion, which gives +1 Attack.

The Ljosalfar have a civilization trait, too, Dextrous, which gives Dextrous to Archery units (+1 Attack). The Kuriotates' Sprawling trait is also now a civilization trait, so any leader of the Kuriotates (say, with random leaders on) has Sprawling. Fallow is a civilization trait for the Infernals, too, I think, although they can only have Hyborem, Minister Koun and Duke Sallos as leaders.

I think I just had a bit of a bug. I won a domination victory as the Ljosalfar in patch e (I think). I read through the little story at the end and it seemed normal until I got to the end of it. Arendel took off an amulet and turned into Faeryl and the real Arendel awoke in Faeryl's tomb.

I think I just had a bit of a bug. I won a domination victory as the Ljosalfar in patch e (I think). I read through the little story at the end and it seemed normal until I got to the end of it. *Spoilers removed*

Thats not a bug. The story wouldn't make any sense for a Svartalfar victory, it only makes sense as a Ljosalfar victory.

Also you should put those spoilers in a spoiler tag.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I'm really not used to that.

Its dark fantasy: the good guys never really win.

Its dark fantasy: the good guys never really win.

Debatable. Good guys do sometimes win, but these goods guys aren't squeaky clean and/or suffer massive casualties and loss of lives to do so. You can have your happy ending, but there will be some tough choices to make getting there, and it may be a bittersweet victory. For an example:
Lord of the Balorsas Varn Gosam
The epic game, mind you, really runs the gamut depending on who's in it. I had one game that was decidedly High Fantasy, with noble Empyrean followers (led by yours truly, playing Keelyn of the Balseraphs no less!) battling and defeating the irredeemably evil Ashen Veil. I also had a very, very dark fantasy game in which the only thing between Erebus and total annihilation at the hands of Hell were the slave-driving followers of Esus. FfH usually veers towards dark fantasy. That said, any game ending with the Altar being built is probably high fantasy; that's a pretty happy ending, unless you actively seek to darken it. Likewise, if Tebryn wins... well, "dark fantasy" becomes an understatement.
Apologies for my off-topic mumblings... though seriously, the Ljosalfar ending did bug me.
I don't know, it just seemed like too much of a deus ex machina (or diabolus ex machina?) to be believable. It's the sort of "this is looking too happy, let's go out of our way to screw it up" thing I'd expect, and indeed enjoy in, Warhammer 40k. Of course this isn't Warhammer 40k. FfH is a pretty dark place, but it is also relatively realistic in its non-fantastic elements, by simple virtue of being a 4X game. If evil wins, it's because it was smarter than the good guys. If good wins, its not because of virtue and honor, but because they outmaneuvered and outwitted their demon-worshiping opponents. Its not right or wrong that wins the day, but smart decisions. That's why the Ljosalfar ending bugged me; is a pulled-out-of-nowhere dark ending really any different then a miraculous happy ending? Faeryl might have well have ridden in on an antimatter Aslan.
(EDIT: Sorry if I'm a bit rambling; it's a late-night rant.)

I'd just like to be the next in line to say that the Blue Marble terrain with this scenario looks pretty strange. Is there some reason it's enabled instead of the regular FfH terrain?

Well to me it felt very anti-climactic, I mean I went through all the trouble of busting ass to defeat the Svarts (Never can fully spell out the elven nation names) and then, well without spoiling it you know what happens next and with no explanation of how it happened even.

I, for one, liked the ending. It really felt in-character with the two queens.

Playing patch F as Svarts (Faeryl), think I came across a bug. Will put under spoiler tags I guess:


1. Defeated Amelanchier. Turned down the Baron's offer, picking the "jail" option. Baron was weak and distant, so really, who cares, I figured.

2. Later defeated Thessa. Alexis makes an offer for her, something about making her a dark queen. I think to myself, "kinky" and let her have Thessa. I expected Alexis to declare war on Arendel, but instead she stayed neutral, and the Baron declared war.

I suspect if I'd taken the Baron's offer, AND Alexis's offer, things would have turned out differently. Anyhow, felt like a bug, i.e., something about the options forcing war picking the wrong player to do it.

Kael is working on making minor leaders come into the game when you make a colony.

All Svartalfar leaders have the sinister trait. It grants recon units the Sinister promotion, which gives +1 attack strength.
Thanks for the response (both you and Verily). I hadn't seen this trait before, as I've mostly played the Elohim (to keep the armageddon counter low). This was my first time playing an evil civ.

Anyway, I knew that there's been talk about bringing the minor leaders into play through colonies, but it'd also be neat if there was an option to make them playable.

The game got pretty easy with alazkan + fellow assassins and nyxkins. Didn't get a message after winning though :( Also when i get these immigrant events, the units i get spawn in other cities.

When I won as the Ljosafar (Gilden is OP) I was unhappy with the ending. It made the scenario (I played as Arendel Phaedra) a little pointless. Stil loved it though.

I think the ending should be as it is, but Arendel spares Faeryl's life, fakes her death, and sends her into a secret exile. Faeryl, naturally, is planning to come back and kill Arendel, but not for a few centuries.

I found this scenario to be too large. After 120 turns or so the game slows down so much for me that it is no longer much fun.

I think the main reason is that all the formerly open space gets filled with barbarian cities, which then get taken over by civs. I would like to see less barbarian cities, and to have the choice to raize captured cities.

Another possibility would be to have a map size choice for the scenarios, so you don't have to go through these monster boards.

I'm not sure the day/night mechanic is working correctly. Are all the werewolves supposed to turn into men during the day? I've seen a few wrecking havoc at noon. (using patch f)

I think Alazkan is way overpowered as the Svalts. I easily one in under 100 turns on emperor with this guy. The only techs you need are poisons and military strategy for blitz. After that, Alaz can just kill everything the Ljos can throw at him. Gilden may be able to hold against one, but he sure as heck can't defeat two in one turn. I think he definitely needs a nerf.

I seem to remember Kael talking about PMing the Svalt end text to a guy who had won the scenario. If I am correct, may I too please have a copy?

I found the ending appropriate, but a bit tossed in without any real logic behind it. We are talking about a summer queen who will have the best guards at all times and who isn't a push over herself. Not only that why would the winter queen give up so much power to Thessa and Amac. She pretty much gave them all the real power, enough power to end her with out much cause...

I found the ending appropriate, but a bit tossed in without any real logic behind it. We are talking about a summer queen who will have the best guards at all times and who isn't a push over herself. Not only that why would the winter queen give up so much power to Thessa and Amac. She pretty much gave them all the real power, enough power to end her with out much cause...

This is the beauty of Faeryl. On the surface she looks to be a uniter willingly giving up power in order to ensure the peace of her people. She establishes order, recognizes the talented among them and does so without any hint that she is pushing any personal agenda.

But what did she really do?

1. Protected her former Svartalfar allies by making sure they are given legal and cultural protection.

2. Sent Amelanchier away from the capital to guard the forts and the "untended" elven lands. He can defend her lands, a job he is suited for and Faeryl isn't insterested in doing anyway.

3. Sent Thessa even further abroad. Putting her in charge of diplomacy and external wars. Putting her in the most difficult spot and focusing her and those most most likely to figure out Faeryl's ruse as far away from Faeryl as possible.

4. Left Faeryl alone with the capital and the heart of the nation. The craftsmen, farmers, temples, artists, etc. Faeryl has a country to rule but doesn't have to be concerned with anything external to the world she governs. She has two levels of isolation between her and outside world, and therefor two levels of isolation between the outside world and her.

5. The only negative to this at all is her agreement to come together with Amelanchier and Thessa for empire wide decisions. But what empire wide decisions are left? Faeryl already controls every part she cares about. And even if an empire wide decision does come up she has full faith that she can trick Amelanchier and Thessa into doing exactly what she wants (which isn't hard because usually exactly what she wants will be whats in the best interests of the elven kingdom anyway).


Faeryl talks a good game, its a convincing argument. And it obviously worked thanks to a little guile and some help from Esus. But it isn't a compromise of any sort for Faeryl, short of Svartalfar victory it is exactly what she wants.

Winning (at least with the help of a Worldbuilder-introduced Abashi) with the Svartalfar doesn't seem to change which civ I can play in The Black Tower.

Also, if a civ is defeated really early I don't get the normal popups.

How would I go about clearing the trophies? Trophy.cfg isn't exactly user friendly. What do all the s's, p's, and I's mean? I'm guessing the s's are strings, the p's are the trophy numbers, and the I's are the number of times it has been achived. Would changing all the I's to 0 be how to clear all trophies?

My guess would be to change I1
sS'TROPHY_WB_THE_SPLINTERED_COURT_LJOSALFAR' to I1
sS'TROPHY_WB_THE_SPLINTERED_COURT_SVARTALFAR
To reset them just replace everything with this(dp1
I1
sS'description'
p2
S'store trophies value'
p3
s.

Winning (at least with the help of a Worldbuilder-introduced Abashi) with the Svartalfar doesn't seem to change which civ I can play in The Black Tower.

Also, if a civ is defeated really early I don't get the normal popups.

How would I go about clearing the trophies? Trophy.cfg isn't exactly user friendly. What do all the s's, p's, and I's mean? I'm guessing the s's are strings, the p's are the trophy numbers, and the I's are the number of times it has been achived. Would changing all the I's to 0 be how to clear all trophies?

I found an error with achieving that trophy (you should have gotten a python error if you have python errors turned on). It will be fixed in the next version.

The best way to clear the trophies is simply to delete the file. But I believe that setting the I (integer) value that follows the trophy name to 0 will also work.

I just noticed in ScenarioFunctions.py under if gc.getGame().isOption(GameOptionTypes.GAMEOPTION_W B_THE_SPLINTERED_COURT) that gc.getGame().incrementUnitClassCreatedCount(gc.get InfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_TROJAN_HORSE')) is still present, even though I believe this unit was removed. Does that not cause problems?

Edit: I just noticed that UNITCLASS_TROJAN_HORSE still exists in CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml, even though UNIT_TROJAN_HORSE is gone. I'm surprised this doesn't cause an error on loading, as there is a non-existent unit as the default unit of this unitclass.

I just noticed in ScenarioFunctions.py under if gc.getGame().isOption(GameOptionTypes.GAMEOPTION_W B_THE_SPLINTERED_COURT) that gc.getGame().incrementUnitClassCreatedCount(gc.get InfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_TROJAN_HORSE')) is still present, even though I believe this unit was removed. Does that not cause problems?

Edit: I just noticed that UNITCLASS_TROJAN_HORSE still exists in CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml, even though UNIT_TROJAN_HORSE is gone. I'm surprised this doesn't cause an error on loading, as there is a non-existent unit as the default unit of this unitclass.

Weird. I would have expected an error from that too. But I'll get it cleaned up. Thanks.

Anyway, I knew that there's been talk about bringing the minor leaders into play through colonies, but it'd also be neat if there was an option to make them playable.

Or how about having them as unlockables? So if I complete the splintered court scenario as the Svartalfar, I get access to the Svartalfar minor leaders?

This is the beauty of Faeryl. On the surface she looks to be a uniter willingly giving up power in order to ensure the peace of her people. She establishes order, recognizes the talented among them and does so without any hint that she is pushing any personal agenda.

But what did she really do?

1. Protected her former Svartalfar allies by making sure they are given legal and cultural protection.

2. Sent Amelanchier away from the capital to guard the forts and the "untended" elven lands. He can defend her lands, a job he is suited for and Faeryl isn't insterested in doing anyway.

3. Sent Thessa even further abroad. Putting her in charge of diplomacy and external wars. Putting her in the most difficult spot and focusing her and those most most likely to figure out Faeryl's ruse as far away from Faeryl as possible.

4. Left Faeryl alone with the capital and the heart of the nation. The craftsmen, farmers, temples, artists, etc. Faeryl has a country to rule but doesn't have to be concerned with anything external to the world she governs. She has two levels of isolation between her and outside world, and therefor two levels of isolation between the outside world and her.

5. The only negative to this at all is her agreement to come together with Amelanchier and Thessa for empire wide decisions. But what empire wide decisions are left? Faeryl already controls every part she cares about. And even if an empire wide decision does come up she has full faith that she can trick Amelanchier and Thessa into doing exactly what she wants (which isn't hard because usually exactly what she wants will be whats in the best interests of the elven kingdom anyway).


Faeryl talks a good game, its a convincing argument. And it obviously worked thanks to a little guile and some help from Esus. But it isn't a compromise of any sort for Faeryl, short of Svartalfar victory it is exactly what she wants.


This makes sense but,

now it feels as if Faeryl is a more neutral isolationist [especially with your note of (which isn't hard because usually exactly what she wants will be whats in the best interests of the elven kingdom anyway) ] than evil. She actually cares about the elven nation as a whole not just her pale skins and her personal power, or am I reading her evil nature wrong? Is she more like Hitler evil were she sees all elves as superior to other races and will exterminate others as needed. Or is she still going to rid Erabus of the other elves in her own spare time? I always saw her as power hungry with a jealous streak a mile long. Is it possible she may actually be a better queen for the elves than that goody goody grave warmer?

Over all I do like the way it ended though: The Svartalfar lost the war, but Faeryl still won in the end.

It seems, the scenario is quite balanced on emperor difficulty and normal speed. It's pretty tough mostly because the AI allies, at least in my game, did not comprehend what they need to do. I played as good elves. For example, one of the allies up north near Calabim, had 2 cities for the whole game apparently losing the starting settler and not receiving any immigrants. The one in the middle built 40+ Priests of Leaves for some reason and twice that amount of rangers and housed them all inside their land attacking mostly with champions. Since I could not gift him copper (cannot give cities our resources, can only receive, I resume this is a feature) and for some reason, he did not connect his own iron or mithril, those champions of strength 6 were slaughtered massively promoting enemy units. Evil elves, on the other hand, were pretty much OK and got a few wonders including one which gives invisibility in your borders and that was pretty unpleasant until I was able to capture it.

Early rush was out of the question since I was researching essentially on my own with very little help from the allies and hence the game lingered for about 270 turns. Good thing, I was able to capture the mirror somehow and this really helped as it was possible to farm 5-6 very experienced assassins. That made the trick. The standard tactics was having 3 mages covered with tigers against enemy assassins casting whirlwind storm on the defenders in the city (mostly crossbowmen, 2-3 per city) while druid was entangling them. This was followed with with horde of assassins of my own finishing when probabilities got over 90% with the elite troops. it was very gory and I sacrificed 150+ assassins to take over all the cities which made it for quite a tedious game. However, as a plus, map was nice, production was huge, and immigrants were quite in abundance later on. I finished with 15 cities close to domination limit.

Mild spoiler on gameplay:

Baron got himself very powerful by capturing all available barbarian cities while Alexis struggled to survive.

Another thing, there is no deer on the map, so good elves could not build the beast riders whereas evil ones did not need any resource and these pesky cats were quite a problem in the middle of the game before mithril got hooked up.

So, to sum it all up:

Pros: nice map if not for the deer, good plot, I loved the intro and the ending. Very nice development of events (both allies in trouble, had to rush to help them survive in the early game). The scenario is balanced for gameplay.

Cons: ridiculously stupid AI allies, do not understand what they should do, did not help at all, did not react to requests for attacking, left cities undefended while having a horde of troops 3 tiles away. They both wasted their world spell (treant defenders) early in the game when Alexis declared on them but actually, there were no enemy troops attacking them inside their lands so treants were just wondering around for a few turns and then were gone without doing any damage to anything. Immigrants coming a bit too randomly, it might be nice to know when they actually are going to come to prepare extra gold for buying settlers and it would be nice to know how much it would cost, at least approximately. Very tedious warring, too many troops to move around. AI defending very passively, mostly sitting in cities and not trying to counterattack.

Since I could not gift him copper (cannot give cities our resources, can only receive, I resume this is a feature) and for some reason, he did not connect his own iron or mithril, those champions of strength 6 were slaughtered massively promoting enemy units.

I know for certain you can gift resources to your allies, this was mostly on the original version, but I also just played the first Decius scenario under patch h, where I gave my Bannor allies my only source of copper as a couple Axemen were bearing down on one his cities where he only had 2 warriors in defense, they upgraded to copper weapons as expected so the 2 axemen were no longer much of a threat. I always take all their palace's mana as soon as I'm was ready to build adepts (because I can put casters to much better use than the AI), but I was giving them all my excess happiness & health resources as well to help their growth.

I did find myself sending some of my workers to my allies lands helping them connect up vital resources, especially resources I didn't control and wanted for myself. As the Illians and Hippus I grew tired of having to actually road and connect 90% of my Doviello allies territory, hell even build some mines and farms at their improvement-less CAPITAL but they are a rather backwards lot with the unfortunate ability to upgrade their workers into Beastmen, for the AI at least...on the offense for me it sure is nice to get new recruits instead of deleting workers when far away from my homeland. Which I'm guessing is why they never completeled their own improvements...because the instant there is a threat they'd upgrade their workers to offensive units. I did this too when playing as the Doviello but I also know to keep a few workers around to get the important jobs done.

Hm. I actually had a really quick and easy Svart win with this scenario. Popped Poisons early from a goody hut, cranked out Alazkan and a couple support hunters, and ran roughshod over the Ljos. Between Gibbon's Mistforms and Alazkan's Mirror, it was an easy win. Met the Baron, but never saw a single werewolf the whole game. Calabim and Lanun were also total nonfactors.

My two cents regarding the Ljosalfar ending:

Well, I don't like it. If you play through - and win - the scenario as Arendel, it's a bit of a slap in the face to have your character murdered (in a very sadistic fashion) at the end, despite the fact that you "won" the game.

And having Faeryl take her place, out of nowhere, means that you do not even get a partial victory, because it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going to happen next. This is a total victory for the Svartalfar, nothing less.

So I don't like it. I accept that this is dark fantasy, and that the good guys can not really win, but this is a just total loss, and there's the added annoyance of having the character you've played killed without being given any chance to save her.

In general, I dislike situations where games take control away from you, and gives the impression that it didn't matter what you do. This sort of reminds me of another game I played, called Ascension to the Throne. It's an RPG with turn based tactical combat, sort of like King's Bounty (and it's pretty good, too). It also had an ending that did something like this.

More spoilers (including some for the AttT-ending):

Basically, the final battle sees you and your allies fighting a demon, and killing him. But then the ending cinematic shows the same fight, only here your allies are killed and the demon escapes to hell, with your character following him. Well, it really bugged me, because I fought that fight, I killed the demon and my allies (including my character's love interest) survived - and then the ending cinematic just wiped all that out and replaced it with a much darker result.

I feel that this is, essentially, what's happening here too. It's sort of clever, but it's way too harsh, and it means everything you did was in vain. And this wasn't because you made the wrong choice or anything, but because the game just "cheated" and decided that particular outcome for you.

Phew, that got a bit longer than I had planned. Of course, my opinion is usually pretty much worthless, so take it with a spoon of salt or something. But I do honestly believe there should be some changes made to this ending.

All I have to say about the appropriateness of the Ljos ending is that it really got people talking, and even seemed to make some folks fairly upset.

I believe that's the highest praise a writer can receive. Kudos to the design team.

I played through this scenario and enjoyed it. The map seemed balanced. My allies took the fight to the enemy, and victory was achieved after a long (6 hour) bit of gaming. My position was relatively isolated from the enemy with my two allies forming a buffer. this allowed me to build huge cities surrounded by cottages and research like mad.

My primary tactict was the same as the last couple scenarios that I have played. Air II mages casting Maelstrom on an enemy city to reduce defender hp and then mop up with combat units. No need to pound down defenses with this spell. It may be a bit overpowered if it is this effective in just about any situation.

A couple of bugs:

It has already been reported that Yggrdale (spelled wrong?) does not bear the proper fruit as a resource. In my game it provided pigs. It was inaccessible in the wilderness, so it had little impact other than cosmetic on my game. A mouseover said that it provided 8 food and +3 with a Pasture. What would an 11 food tile look like? Would there be 2 loaves and one extra food? I'm tempted to load an autosave and WB me an extra settler to find out.

The popup side story for the Baron appeared after I had already won. I'm guessing that the side story for Alexus and the Barron are each tied to a specific leader being defeated. If you defeat that leader last the text box seems a bit out of place after having read the end scenario text already.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii295/Mesix_Orion/SplinteredCourtVictory0000.jpg

Overall a good job on this scenario. It is fun and thematic.

Happy Holidays to the design team and all the other playtesters out there.

My two cents regarding the Ljosalfar ending:

Well, I don't like it. If you play through - and win - the scenario as Arendel, it's a bit of a slap in the face to have your character murdered (in a very sadistic fashion) at the end, despite the fact that you "won" the game.

And having Faeryl take her place, out of nowhere, means that you do not even get a partial victory, because it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going to happen next. This is a total victory for the Svartalfar, nothing less.

So I don't like it. I accept that this is dark fantasy, and that the good guys can not really win, but this is a just total loss, and there's the added annoyance of having the character you've played killed without being given any chance to save her.



I don't think she died. My guess is that Amelanchier or someone else will find out what happened and go save her, or that she'll get out of there by her own. I mean hey, Viconia (BG2) was buried alive, and she survived just fine!

All I have to say about the appropriateness of the Ljos ending is that it really got people talking, and even seemed to make some folks fairly upset.


Well, yeah, sort of. I am sorry if I sound angry, I guess that because Fall from Heaven is generally such an enjoyable and well made game, I tend to forget it's not a commercial game, but a much more personal work of creativity made by a handful of talented people in their spare time. I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did I apologize.

Minor spoilers again:
Having said this, you should never underestimate the bond that's created between the player and the player character (in this case, Arendel). Especially players who try to roleplay. This twist ending, while clever in many ways, is very unfair to the people who've won playing as her. Because as I said, it feels like a total loss, that shows up from nowhere. Kael said it himself - Faeryl got exactly what she wanted.

I think that, since Arendel did indeed kick her butt, she should at least have had the decency to ... well, not win the game and (seemingly) kill off your character. Yeah, she's a hot, evil elven chick who everyone loves (except me, because I see her as the Isabella of FFH, and I hate Isabella so much), but she still shouldn't get a free victory when she didn't earn it. :)
There, I'll probably shut up now. :)

I don't think she died. My guess is that Amelanchier or someone else will find out what happened and go save her, or that she'll get out of there by her own. I mean hey, Viconia (BG2) was buried alive, and she survived just fine!

Heh, true enough. If Faeryl can magically take Arendel's place and lock her away where noone can find her, then I suppose anything could happen. Maybe Arendel will come back as a zombie and lead a new race of undead elves to purge the world of the Svartalfar in the next FFH? :)

Having said this, you should never underestimate the bond that's created between the player and the player character.


I never do. I'm an avid roleplayer myself. My point is that well-written tragedy has the potential to really affect people emotionally, which is what the designers have done.

To me, saying that what happened to Arendel is unfair to the players is like saying that Shakespeare was being unfair to theatergoers for killing off Romeo and Juliet at their moment of triumph. Those two had won, but a bit of miscommunication convinced Romeo that Juliet was dead instead of just faking it, and he kills himself. (did I just spoiler-tag Romeo and Juliet?)

Yes, it provokes a strong reaction, but that's what tragedy is supposed to do. I realize that theater and RPGs are two different animals, but remember that FfH isn't even strictly a role-playing game. It's a 4X game with some role-playing elements in which the only real connection we have with the characters beyond that which we create ourselves is controlling the military, political, and economic arms of their empires. Oh -- and their card games. :)

That the creators have managed to create such an incredibly rich world populated with such intriguing characters that they were able to provoke these kinds of reactions despite the lack of a game mechanic to truly immerse the player in the character is a testament to their creativity and their years of work.

Don't get me wrong, Old MacDonald. I'm not saying you shouldn't be upset. All I'm saying is that this tragedy is an integral part of the FfH experience that we've been given, and I think that to call it an unfair trick on the part of the creators is to do them a bit of a disservice.

Baron offered me an alliance if I gave him Ameliancer, so I said OK. Is this supposed to make him a permanent ally or what, he didn't change anything...

It doesn't create an actual alliance, but makes him declare war on all your enemies.

Well he was already at war with the elves. So i guess it was pointless. Oh well.

This is the beauty of Faeryl. On the surface she looks to be a uniter willingly giving up power in order to ensure the peace of her people. She establishes order, recognizes the talented among them and does so without any hint that she is pushing any personal agenda.

But what did she really do?

1. Protected her former Svartalfar allies by making sure they are given legal and cultural protection.

2. Sent Amelanchier away from the capital to guard the forts and the "untended" elven lands. He can defend her lands, a job he is suited for and Faeryl isn't insterested in doing anyway.

3. Sent Thessa even further abroad. Putting her in charge of diplomacy and external wars. Putting her in the most difficult spot and focusing her and those most most likely to figure out Faeryl's ruse as far away from Faeryl as possible.

4. Left Faeryl alone with the capital and the heart of the nation. The craftsmen, farmers, temples, artists, etc. Faeryl has a country to rule but doesn't have to be concerned with anything external to the world she governs. She has two levels of isolation between her and outside world, and therefor two levels of isolation between the outside world and her.

5. The only negative to this at all is her agreement to come together with Amelanchier and Thessa for empire wide decisions. But what empire wide decisions are left? Faeryl already controls every part she cares about. And even if an empire wide decision does come up she has full faith that she can trick Amelanchier and Thessa into doing exactly what she wants (which isn't hard because usually exactly what she wants will be whats in the best interests of the elven kingdom anyway).


Faeryl talks a good game, its a convincing argument. And it obviously worked thanks to a little guile and some help from Esus. But it isn't a compromise of any sort for Faeryl, short of Svartalfar victory it is exactly what she wants.

That story really twisted my mind up. I hate those ones that lie to you without saying 'the perhaps queen' etc. It directly called her Arendel.

Anyway, I wonder how long an elf can go without food. Or if the winter queen could help amusing herself with her sister. Using illusions of a rescue to trick her to keep eating etc. I've got an unwritten continuation involving an encounter with Varn or a Vicar and perhaps an interwoven story of a madly- grieving Savaltafar (She's got good propaganda, presumably) busting into the tomb to catch a final glimpse of her/his queen and catching her in the act of torturing the summer queen. Combined and Amelanchier's wit (in my play through of the scenario, Faeryl's kingdom is #2 down so he's familiar with her tricks) which eventually ends with saving Arendaels life. And of course, before the arrest, Faeryl slips away. Many elves loyal to her stage a rising, and both civs and leaders are ready for their individual appearance in the epic game...

P.S. Why can't you mod the CoEsus icon out of the diplo screen. The python's all their isn't it? Is that just a dummy version and the really code got moved the the engine core?

Oh, well. Difficult to shut up when I get such thoughtful replies. :)

I never do. I'm an avid roleplayer myself. My point is that well-written tragedy has the potential to really affect people emotionally, which is what the designers have done.
Yeah, I agree with this.
Yes, it provokes a strong reaction, but that's what tragedy is supposed to do. I realize that theater and RPGs are two different animals, but remember that FfH isn't even strictly a role-playing game. It's a 4X game with some role-playing elements in which the only real connection we have with the characters beyond that which we create ourselves is controlling the military, political, and economic arms of their empires. Oh -- and their card games. :)
Yes, and you've pointed out something very important here. FFH gives us great characters to play with, with truly interesting stories and personalities. This is probably one of the reasons they're so easy to care about and bond with, as opposed to generic action hero # 3. But in my mind, and this is my subjective opinion, the key difference between theater and an interactive game like this, is the player.

What I usually like about FFH is that the game gives me all the great lore, and then lets me weave my own stories on top of that. I.e. Kael has set the stage and given me the tools, and when the game starts, I take over. I take his characters and his world, and based on my actions and my imagination, I continue evolving his creations.

This is especially true because FFH is not really an RPG or adventure where you have your character on screen and control him or her directly. This game hardly ever tells us anything about our characters during the gameplay - it leaves pretty much everything to the imagination. And so, the world and the characters in it becomes mine.

I guess that's part of why an ending such as this feels so wrong. In a way, I feel Kael should let go of his creation when I take over. I accept this is probably a hard thing to do, and I also accept that a scenario such as this must have a somewhat defined ending. But...

I find that this ending was so at odds with what actually happened in the scenario that it didn't feel comfortable at all. And that's why I call it unfair. It was completely unpredictable for me as the player, and it undermined everything I had achieved during the many hours I had spent on the scenario.

I think that, and again this is completely subjective, there should be a somewhat predictable connection between what happens in the game and what happens in the ending. If I win, I should win - at least partly. So maybe things didn't turn out as great as expected - I could live with that. But, well, you know what happened.

I probably wouldn't under any circumstance like an ending which basically kills what has during the course of the game evolved into my character, and turns a victory into a loss. But if there had been better foreshadowing or preferably something that the player did (or could avoid) which caused it all, at least it would have felt less unfair.


That the creators have managed to create such an incredibly rich world populated with such intriguing characters that they were able to provoke these kinds of reactions despite the lack of a game mechanic to truly immerse the player in the character is a testament to their creativity and their years of work.

This, I totally agree with.
Don't get me wrong, Old MacDonald. I'm not saying you shouldn't be upset. All I'm saying is that this tragedy is an integral part of the FfH experience that we've been given, and I think that to call it an unfair trick on the part of the creators is to do them a bit of a disservice.
I've sort of responded to this above. It's really the "out of the blue"-nature of the ending, coupled with the total lack of connection with the actual events and achievements of the player, that makes it feel unfair.

...

BTW, as an aside, it would be nice if someone (Kael?) could paste the Svartalfar ending (which I didn't see in my game).

I sure hope it doesn't "do a Ljosalfar" and end with Faeryl and her hot friends being struck dead by a magical bolt of lightning, which at the same time manage to free Arendel and let her take control of the Svartalfar... :)

What I usually like about FFH is that the game gives me all the great lore, and then lets me weave my own stories on top of that. I.e. Kael has set the stage and given me the tools, and when the game starts, I take over. I take his characters and his world, and based on my actions and my imagination, I continue evolving his creations.

This is especially true because FFH is not really an RPG or adventure where you have your character on screen and control him or her directly. This game hardly ever tells us anything about our characters during the gameplay - it leaves pretty much everything to the imagination. And so, the world and the characters in it becomes mine.

I guess that's part of why an ending such as this feels so wrong. In a way, I feel Kael should let go of his creation when I take over. I accept this is probably a hard thing to do, and I also accept that a scenario such as this must have a somewhat defined ending. But...

I think what you pointed out right at the end is the key here. In a regular game of FfH, the world develops along its own track, with the player helping to guide its development by participating in that world as a major power. One of the best games I ever played was an evolving story where I was the Luchuirp, on a small continent with the Kurio and some Lanun that Cardith and I subdued. We were happy, progressive, Empyrean-worshipping group, and our rivers flowed with milk and honey. Until we discovered the continent far to the west, across the ocean, with the hugely powerful AV-worshipping Bannor teamed up with Hyborem with a few other allied races on a giant continent completely engulfed in Hell terrain. What followed was an epic war of Good vs. Evil, and it was all my story.

The scenarios, however, belong to Kael and Co. The developers set the stage for the Elven civil war and then give us the keys to let us fight out this important moment in Erebus history. The story of the scenario -- what happens before and after the battles -- is something separate and apart from our interaction with the game as players.

I find that this ending was so at odds with what actually happened in the scenario that it didn't feel comfortable at all. And that's why I call it unfair. It was completely unpredictable for me as the player, and it undermined everything I had achieved during the many hours I had spent on the scenario.

I think what happened was unpredictable for Arendel as well. :lol: But out of curiosity, what makes you say it was so at odds with what actually happened? Even if the Ljos win a military victory, you as a player did not execute Faeryl Viconia. You as a player did not specifically post guards around Arendel and prepare anti-illusion wards to protect her. I would argue that what happened was contrary to your expectations of what a Ljos victory would look like, but it was in no way out of character for either the people involved or the world that it takes place in.

I'm in no way saying that you shouldn't be dissatisfied with the ending, but consider it this way: With the scenarios, the developers are telling us a story that already exists. There is some player input of the "choose your own adventure" variety, where they can guide the story in one of two directions -- a Ljos military victory or a Svart military victory. But outside of that, in the scenarios we as players are still being told a story. We may not always like the story that we're being told, but again, it's like complaining to Jim Cameron that the Terminator shouldn't have died at the end of T2 because it wasn't fair.

I appreciate the good discussion!

I love this discussion. Honestly my true love is storytelling more than game design and I easily antagonize longer over 6 paragraphs on a scenario desc than a 1000 lines of code (probably why I have so many bugs :mischief: ).

I thought about this twist before I wrote it. It is, to a certain degree, unfair. But though a character suffers, the empire you won the war with does win. the Ljosalfar do survive, the svartalfar are crushed, despite the specific fate of individuals in the aftermath.

In the end though, I honestly don't feel like I always pick the story. I write the story but these characters drive it forward. In this case Faeryl simply wouldn't die. I had intended to write a celebratory story for a new world under the Ljosalfar banner, but I couldn't find it.

Arendel was to perfect for Erebus, her fall with Thessa and Amelanchier remaining in a new less idealistic elven nation seemed right. An elven nation fiercely guarded with internal subterfuge and secrects is perfect.

I also like to think that within that coffin Arendel remains alive, sustaining herself on a piece of fruit and nature magic. Though Cerrunous has no chance of discovering a secret hidden by Esus there may be some future for Arendel. If she is rescued unharmed, returns as an undead queen from the elven catacombs, or is as mad as Perpentach is yet to be discovered.

All this controversy over this? The hippus lovers must not have finished "The cult" yet

All this controversy over this? The hippus lovers must not have finished "The cult" yet

Well as not to spam this thread with info on us "Hippus" lovers :p you live by the sword and you will die by the sword and such an ending such as that one is expected more so than this one... In fact that one has to be my fav. scen thus far due to that ending

I like the Hippus, but I never really liked Tasunke. I like the ending of The Cult. If I'd change anything about it, it would be to make you actually have to act out the events in the closing text. I may try to mod it that way in my version. I'd probably have to change Tasunke and Mahala to vassals, make the human have to play as Auric, and make him have to lead the Auric unit (who must be kept alive or you loose the game) to the Dragon Bones feature to resurrect Drifa. (I'm thinking I may change it so that any Dragon can be resurrected on the appropriate Dragon Bones, destroying the feature and the resource. Whenever a Dragon dies it would leave the Dragon Bones behind, with the mana of that civ's sphere. Stir from Slumber would become a spell instead of a ritual, and would awaken a dragon based on the mana that its skeleton would provide. Resurrection would work for Herne, Wilboman, and whatever hero I'll give the Sheaim instead of the Dragons, as they could be resurrected in other ways.) In the Scenario, resurrecting Drifa would probably trigger an event forcing you to declare war on one of your vassals if you ever want to have Drifa fight for you. I'd probably make this scenario actually be optional like Lord of the Balors, but you'd really want to win it since that is the only way to get Drifa in the other scenarios.


One thing I really don't like about this scenario is how the Hippus are so much stronger than the other two civs on the side of the pass where they start, and how all allies are useless on the other side of the pass. Also, the portal doesn't really fit the scenery. I'm thinking I may change the portal to instead be a gate that transports units to the other end onMove and make it so that clearing the dungeon removes some peaks to make the two halves of the map directly connected so the AI allies can find their way though.

There are 2 other big differences with Tasunke.

1. He isnt a very sympathedic character. He is a mercenary without any obvious regard for what he does for his money. In that light betrayal isnt only fair, but it isnt surprising. Especially considering his treatment of Beeri.

2. His death was foreshadowed, even to him and he ignored it. In the world of storytelling that makes him fair game.

... I thought about this twist before I wrote it. It is, to a certain degree, unfair. ....

It is quite unexpected, I read and slowly actually understood what is going on and then the first thought was about how this is unfair. But then, it was so nice because it is not standard. If you want a happy end, go watch a movie or play some RPG. Dark fantasy world has to be dark and strange, the laws that govern it are different. And the ending is perfectly consistent with these laws, so there is no contradiction here.

Why many people enjoy reading George RR Martin or Steven Erikson? IMO, there is an anticipation of an unexpected. With regards to Civ, it is like playing on a scenario map with WB or discovering something new every turn in the complete unknown. For some people discovery brings joy while other do like more of the repetition and watch the same movie again and again. Some like to travel while others like to surround themselves with family at home and never go out.

I got a TXT_KEY when I defeated Arendel

I think what you pointed out right at the end is the key here. In a regular game of FfH, the world develops along its own track, with the player helping to guide its development by participating in that world as a major power.
-snipped-
The scenarios, however, belong to Kael and Co. The developers set the stage for the Elven civil war and then give us the keys to let us fight out this important moment in Erebus history. The story of the scenario -- what happens before and after the battles -- is something separate and apart from our interaction with the game as players.

I do agree that in general there are clear differences between what scenarios are supposed to do, and what the epic game is supposed to be like, and that a well defined ending is part of what you expect from a scenario. But typically, scenarios are far smaller, far more limited affairs, where you're more or less guided by the game designers throughout. So they naturally tend to flow towards the predetermined ending (or endings).

But this scenario is an epic struggle where the creators stay away from the action for most of the time. It's basically an epic game with advanced start, a couple of special units and less randomization than normal. So the differences between scenario and epic game gets blurred out a bit, and after you've spent 5-10 hours making history, such a forced and unexpected ending does feel wrong to me.


I think what happened was unpredictable for Arendel as well. :lol: But out of curiosity, what makes you say it was so at odds with what actually happened? Even if the Ljos win a military victory, you as a player did not execute Faeryl Viconia. You as a player did not specifically post guards around Arendel and prepare anti-illusion wards to protect her. I would argue that what happened was contrary to your expectations of what a Ljos victory would look like, but it was in no way out of character for either the people involved or the world that it takes place in.

I don't know. If I had been given the chance to actually do any of these things, maybe I would? I certainly wouldn't have any rights to complain about what happened, if I could have prevented it myself. It's a somewhat unfair argument, because the game didn't let me do anything protect Arendel from something like this. There was nothing I could do to save her. I could have stacked a hundred defenders in and around the capital, with tons of magicians casting all sorts of defensive spells, but nothing would have helped.

In a normal epic game this isn't a problem, because the enemy doesn't "cheat" by striking deals with Esus just when they're supposed to die. So yes, it has to do with expectations - I don't expect my opponents to break/ignore the rules of the game, and though the ending is separate from the actual gameplay, the Faeryl that took the place of my Arendel was certainly the same Faeryl that I fought against, and who showed no signs of being able to break the rules when her butt was being kicked in-game.


As an aside, this scenario already contains the possibility to decide for yourself what you want to do with your defeated foes (which is pretty cool, and would be neat to have in the epic game as well). So it certainly wouldn't have been inconsistent to give the player more options at the end, and have this ending as only one of maybe several endings, based on the player's choices.

So as Arendel, you could get the options to, say, execute Faeryl, imprison her, exile her or something entirely different... I don't know about you, but roleplaying Arendel I would probably choose one of the last two options - I mean, choosing to banish/exile Faeryl would probably extremely stupid and naive, but I don't think it would have been entirely out of character for Arendel to do something like that.

I'm in no way saying that you shouldn't be dissatisfied with the ending, but consider it this way: With the scenarios, the developers are telling us a story that already exists. There is some player input of the "choose your own adventure" variety, where they can guide the story in one of two directions -- a Ljos military victory or a Svart military victory. But outside of that, in the scenarios we as players are still being told a story. We may not always like the story that we're being told, but again, it's like complaining to Jim Cameron that the Terminator shouldn't have died at the end of T2 because it wasn't fair.

To me, the difference is about the player's participation in the story-creation-process. There is none of that in Terminator 2. The viewer watches, and that's it. Whereas in Fall from Heaven 2, I make the story. The war between the Svartalfar and the Ljosalfar was my war - it was based on Kael's foundation, but other than that it was all mine.

I know, I repeat myself. But I really do not see a game of Fall from Heaven, even a scenario-based one such as this, as directly comparable to a movie or a book.

I appreciate the good discussion!

Yeah, me too. Sorry about the delayed response. I had little free time yesterday, and what I had I wanted to spend playing FFH instead of talking about it. :)

(back in my usenet days, I would often spend hours discussing games each day, and only a fraction of that time actually playing them...)

Sorry for the double-post, but I thought it was best to separate these two replies.

I love this discussion. Honestly my true love is storytelling more than game design and I easily antagonize longer over 6 paragraphs on a scenario desc than a 1000 lines of code (probably why I have so many bugs :mischief: ).

Thanks for responding, I'm glad to hear you like the discussion - it sort of validates it, if you understand what I mean. :)

I thought about this twist before I wrote it. It is, to a certain degree, unfair. But though a character suffers, the empire you won the war with does win. the Ljosalfar do survive, the svartalfar are crushed, despite the specific fate of individuals in the aftermath.

You are right, of course. I think that the reason it seems like a total loss for me is that in my mind, Faeryl = The Svartalfar. This may not be entirely reasonable, but I do fear that she will do everything in her power (and now she has lots of it) to make sure that she and her Svartalfar allies get what they want in the end.

In the end though, I honestly don't feel like I always pick the story. I write the story but these characters drive it forward. In this case Faeryl simply wouldn't die. I had intended to write a celebratory story for a new world under the Ljosalfar banner, but I couldn't find it.

Arendel was to perfect for Erebus, her fall with Thessa and Amelanchier remaining in a new less idealistic elven nation seemed right. An elven nation fiercely guarded with internal subterfuge and secrects is perfect.

I also like to think that within that coffin Arendel remains alive, sustaining herself on a piece of fruit and nature magic. Though Cerrunous has no chance of discovering a secret hidden by Esus there may be some future for Arendel. If she is rescued unharmed, returns as an undead queen from the elven catacombs, or is as mad as Perpentach is yet to be discovered.

It's at least a relief to hear that you haven't killed her off completely. I am sad that this is how things had to end (and I still stand by my other comments in this thread), but I understand and respect your reasons for making this ending.

Btw, from this comment I'm sort of getting the idea that this ending (Ljosalfar victory but with Faeryl in charge) will be considered "canon" in the future of Erebus. Am I right?

(and what about the Svartalfar victory - is that a total victory for them, or is there something similar happening there?)

Btw, from this comment I'm sort of getting the idea that this ending will be considered "canon" in the future of Erebus. Am I right?

If we were to make a 5th age mod then yes, it would probably be with this ending. But we intentionally try to avoid Age of Rebirth canon, we want to run everything up to the age of rebirth with as much flavor and interest as possible, then leave it up to the player to decide what happens next.

So for now its open.

You are right, of course. I think that the reason it seems like a total loss for me is that in my mind, Faeryl = The Svartalfar. This may not be entirely reasonable, but I do fear that she will do everything in her power (and now she has lots of it) to make sure that she and her Svartalfar allies get what they want in the end.

The way I see the lore, is that it is not the Svartalfar who have broken off from the Ljosalfar but the Ljos who have rebelled from the Winter court - it's just that the numbers who "rebel" are (slightly) more numerous than those who remain "loyal" to the Winter court.

To that extent I would say that Faeryl sees herself as Ljosalfar, but she see herself as the best hope for the survival of the combined Ljosalfar-Svartalfar peoples.

I do agree that in general there are clear differences between what scenarios are supposed to do, and what the epic game is supposed to be like, and that a well defined ending is part of what you expect from a scenario. But typically, scenarios are far smaller, far more limited affairs, where you're more or less guided by the game designers throughout. So they naturally tend to flow towards the predetermined ending (or endings).

But this scenario is an epic struggle where the creators stay away from the action for most of the time. It's basically an epic game with advanced start, a couple of special units and less randomization than normal. So the differences between scenario and epic game gets blurred out a bit, and after you've spent 5-10 hours making history, such a forced and unexpected ending does feel wrong to me.

I would disagree here. I felt the storytelling hand of the developers to have more influence in this scenario than in some of the others. Each time you conquer an enemy, more story emerges.



As an aside, this scenario already contains the possibility to decide for yourself what you want to do with your defeated foes (which is pretty cool, and would be neat to have in the epic game as well). So it certainly wouldn't have been inconsistent to give the player more options at the end, and have this ending as only one of maybe several endings, based on the player's choices.

So as Arendel, you could get the options to, say, execute Faeryl, imprison her, exile her or something entirely different... I don't know about you, but roleplaying Arendel I would probably choose one of the last two options - I mean, choosing to banish/exile Faeryl would probably extremely stupid and naive, but I don't think it would have been entirely out of character for Arendel to do something like that.

I agree with you -- that's the action I would probably take as well. And I would say that's probably the reason Faeryl was able to pull off the stunt that she did.


To me, the difference is about the player's participation in the story-creation-process. There is none of that in Terminator 2. The viewer watches, and that's it. Whereas in Fall from Heaven 2, I make the story. The war between the Svartalfar and the Ljosalfar was my war - it was based on Kael's foundation, but other than that it was all mine.


I think this is the crux of the discussion right here -- you seem to be arguing that once you start a scenario, you are essentially taking control of it away from the developers and guiding it down a path of your choosing, with the expectation that the end result necessarily follows the actions that you have chosen, and that by interacting with the characters and events of the world that you are taking a sort of moral ownership stake in what happens to them in the context of a given game/scenario.

I, however, contest that there is no such ownership stake on the part of the player. The stories, crafted by the devteam, already exist. The stories might have multiple branching paths, but they are still a fixed, existing story in the same way as T2, Romeo and Juliet, or other works of fiction, and we are interacting with them in a limited way.

I would agree with you that there is potential for the player to feel cheated if there is a logical disconnect between the way the scenario plays out and what the final resolution is. If I won a military victory with the Ljos and the closing text began, "As Faeryl and her troops march triumphantly through the burnt wreckage of Evermore...", then yeah, I would be puzzled at best. But I don't believe it is reasonable to state, "The Ljos armies defeated the Svart armies, therefore Faeryl Viconia could not have managed to secretly change places with Arendel." One does not logically follow the other. That's why I argue that the ending toys with your expectations (= good storytelling) and not with the "reality" of the scenario (= bad storytelling). Again -- not trying to argue that you have to like the ending, but just that I don't think it's an unreasonable or unfair one.

Again, I'd like to express my appreciation to you for taking this on with me. I think it's entirely likely that we won't ever see eye-to-eye on this, but it's so rare to get a really good discussion like this on a forum that doesn't devolve into a flamewar. It's a tremendously interesting topic that really gets into the relationship between developers and players, and how both interact with a story.

If you're ever in Portland, OR, let's grab a beer! :goodjob:

Playing as Amel. and popped March of the Trees on turn 10, was able to wipe the floor with Volanna with about 15 treants and now have 6 good forested cities on turn 15.... this will be over quickly. (World Spell should prolly be disabled for this game)

I would disagree here. I felt the storytelling hand of the developers to have more influence in this scenario than in some of the others. Each time you conquer an enemy, more story emerges.

Sort of, but these are two fairly simple events that are virtually identical for both sides. They (or one of them, depending on who you kill last) allow for some significant choices, but they don't really interfere much with the player's story. What happens here is completely based on what the player has done, and the player gets to choose the next natural course of action.

So they feel pretty natural, and don't break the feeling that the player is in control over the war and its outcome.

An idea for improvement would be to include more scenario-specific events during the gameplay, if Kael & co wants to focus on the story-bit. Also, multiple endings. :)

I agree with you -- that's the action I would probably take as well. And I would say that's probably the reason Faeryl was able to pull off the stunt that she did.

As far as I am aware, we don't know how Faeryl "died" in the first place. I was assuming that she was executed, but it didn't sit right with me because I can't imagine Arendel ordering her execution.

This is another slight issue I have with the ending. The fate of the other two leaders were in your hands, but when it comes to Faeryl, it just skips past the (expected) final showdown, until the bit where she's supposedly dead. It's somewhat inconsistent with the rest of the scenario, IMO.

(there may be some piece of lore that explains all this, but as far as I know it's not in the scenario itself)



I think this is the crux of the discussion right here -- you seem to be arguing that once you start a scenario, you are essentially taking control of it away from the developers and guiding it down a path of your choosing, with the expectation that the end result necessarily follows the actions that you have chosen, and that by interacting with the characters and events of the world that you are taking a sort of moral ownership stake in what happens to them in the context of a given game/scenario.

I, however, contest that there is no such ownership stake on the part of the player. The stories, crafted by the devteam, already exist. The stories might have multiple branching paths, but they are still a fixed, existing story in the same way as T2, Romeo and Juliet, or other works of fiction, and we are interacting with them in a limited way.


Well, it does give you the entire elven civil war to control. That's a pretty big block of "unfixed" story right there. It's kind of like Tolkien telling the readers that they're on their own after Rivendel, and then popping in from his hiding place behind the scenes to write an ending after they have found a way for the good guys to win the war of the ring. :)

And, for good measure, an ending where Saruman and Gandalf switch souls just before Saruman's final demise... :)


I would agree with you that there is potential for the player to feel cheated if there is a logical disconnect between the way the scenario plays out and what the final resolution is. If I won a military victory with the Ljos and the closing text began, "As Faeryl and her troops march triumphantly through the burnt wreckage of Evermore...", then yeah, I would be puzzled at best. But I don't believe it is reasonable to state, "The Ljos armies defeated the Svart armies, therefore Faeryl Viconia could not have managed to secretly change places with Arendel." One does not logically follow the other. That's why I argue that the ending toys with your expectations (= good storytelling) and not with the "reality" of the scenario (= bad storytelling). Again -- not trying to argue that you have to like the ending, but just that I don't think it's an unreasonable or unfair one.

In a way you're right, but at the same time there's the lack of foreshadowing and the feeling that Faeryl is breaking the rules, which I talked about earlier in the discussion. If something like this was a genuine threat, I as the Ljosalfar leader should probably have been able to take some steps to try and prevent it.

I don't think your principles of good storytelling/bad storytelling are always true, either. An ending stating that Arendel, Thessa and Amelanchier were struck by a random bolt of lightning and killed, leaving Faeryl to talk her way out of prison and be reinstated as queen would have been just as unexpected and no less logical than the current one. But I think even you would have complained a bit if this had been the actual ending. :)

Again, I'd like to express my appreciation to you for taking this on with me. I think it's entirely likely that we won't ever see eye-to-eye on this, but it's so rare to get a really good discussion like this on a forum that doesn't devolve into a flamewar. It's a tremendously interesting topic that really gets into the relationship between developers and players, and how both interact with a story.

If you're ever in Portland, OR, let's grab a beer! :goodjob:

Thanks - funnily enough I was recently invited to grab a beer with someone in Salem, so I guess Oregon is moving up in the list of states I need to visit next time I'm in the USA. :)

As for this discussion, I think you're right that we'll probably never quite agree. I've been completely hooked on FFH II for the last couple of days (you know what? it's a fantastic mod. everyone here should try it :) ), and now my Christmas vacation is coming to an end, so I expect I have to wind down my involvement in this thread. Besides I'm sort of satisfied with Kael's response (though I hope I've provided some food for thought for him as well, even if nothing I've said ends up influencing anything).

Playing as Amel. and popped March of the Trees on turn 10, was able to wipe the floor with Volanna with about 15 treants and now have 6 good forested cities on turn 15.... this will be over quickly. (World Spell should prolly be disabled for this game)

On the other hand, Amelanchier really does need something to help him out because he is the prime target for all 3 Svart leaders and his allies don't really do much.

On the other hand, Amelanchier really does need something to help him out because he is the prime target for all 3 Svart leaders and his allies don't really do much.

Ironically I played Arandel (the Lljos. one from the main game) and started very far from the action. To compound matters the Barbarians seemed to have joined forces with the Svaltafar and were happily trying to plunder my lands whilst pretty much ignoring my foes. This wouldn't have been so much of an issue if I could build Settlers and push the fog back, but with No Settlers... Thank Heavens I completed Barbarian Assault first.

I won, but it took a long time (yawn) as my troops had to cross half the map to get to the action, even with the Mobility promotion(s). Maybe the Arandel should be moved a little closer to the action, which would both amelioriate this issue and that of the previous poster.

Playing as the Ljos, I discovered the little pop-up that, should the player get to Faeryl before her allies,

details her escape and sanctuary among them.

Curious about Arendel's version, I re-played as the Svarts, but got a TXT_KEY for my effort. :lol:

Is there any particular reason why this scenario doesn't use the standard FfH2 terrain graphics?

Kael just wants to annoy us :p

He said that he liked having different areas of Erebus look different, and thought that using both normal FfH terrain and Blue Marble was the easiest way to do so. I agree that Blue Marble probably fits better in The Grand Menagerie, but I think it loks horrible under Ancient Forests and so should not be used here.

Both times I got the even that let me purchase units the units appeared in a city nowhere near the one where the event occurred. The first time the event happened in my third city and the unit appeared in my second, and the second time (after my third city was captured by Arendel Phaedra) it appeared in my capital.

The game got pretty easy with alazkan + fellow assassins and nyxkins. Didn't get a message after winning though :( Also when i get these immigrant events, the units i get spawn in other cities.

With patch L I confirm this, playing Arendel.
Also I liberated a teammates city that went from barb to his & then Svart control; had to reload before that action (I can ohso barely live with teammates building Heroes before me, but NOT when its about the only druid I can have as a good civ leader! <frustrating>), anyway had to reload & liberated the city, but no option to give it to my mate, it fell under general Ljos control, thus directly to me (didnt want it!).
It seems that it isnt saved which member of the team had control over the city!

On monarch difficulty the Svalts are doing very well, Amelanchier seems to be the prime target for them & just lost one of his cities to them & he got control over one of theirs, but all in all the teammates progress seems to be just fine (Thessa seems a bit cautious & Amelanchier builds a tad bit much priests IMO!). I wont even have it about the usual AI behaviour to roam distant regions & razing barb cities, well, thats a problem here: Cities cant be razed!
So mostly the control falls over to the side being nearer to the object of interest, being able to pull more units there in less time, but oh I will praise the day when I finally see an AI taking more interest in its vicinity, instead of wasting ressources to its usual behaviour... dang, I did it & stop now!

We are having friendly terms with the Calabim & the Baron, not much action to be seen there, in fact havent seen a single Duin unit! I think the Calabim isnt very much fixed on us elves as enemies, the AI loves weak targets & as I eventually checked the Lanun area I could see the markings under the fog indicating a seablockade. I didnt bother to check it in the WB but Im pretty much sure it was a Calabim unit, as I said: The AI loves banging on the weak!
Might be interesting to tweak a bit there or all the nigth&day sharade was worth nothing!

As for some reports with Yggdrasil (I had a copper under it), first I was puzzled myself expecting the fruits & etc, but then I remembered about the change of it a couple of months ago. I dont fully remember but I expect the Worldtree to function as intented, I just missed a clarification in this already six pages long thread.

Gonna hit the sack now, but cant await the notorious ending, ty for all the spoiler tags! :)
Expect a final statement later!

well you can leave your captured cities unguarded so it will be taken by barbs, or you can gift it

After finishing the scenario I must say Im not fond of teamplaying with an AI in the near future, not if you tend to be a friggin controlfreak like me. I mean Im happy that you're able to tell them what to research, where to attack & it works, thats a good start!

I continue from my last post:
So I tried a couple of things to get Yvain but to no avail, Arendel comes after Amelanchier in turns, no can do & I dont cheat via WB. Later on I wanted to build the Celestial Compass to boost GPP output for Altar/disc EPs, some of the dudes was faster again.
They build a lot of wonders, only having three wellproducing cities & the enemy at the door, but one of the cities is building a wonder & 1/4 of the military worldwide on the loose capturing faroff cities!

I played on normal speed, monarch lvl until about turn 280 winning a domination victory.
I got four Immigrationevents, two of them between turn 250-265, none of my Ljos allies ever took a settler out, Faeryl build a 4th city as I saw in the history & shortly before I conquered Rivanna the Wraith Lord, she tried to escort one extra settler out. The calabim seemed to have the same three initial settlers, Lanun & the Baron were fixed (in the history it looked like the Baron would get more cities for the start, there was room enough in the corner, but I think he didnt.).

The Baron:
He went FoL pretty early from the start, never made any fuzz, I traveled a lot via his borders & only once at night I saw one unit of him, he had a werewolf out a few squares off his borders. It seems somethings blocks him from moving deeper into the map. I mean, look at him at turn 256, first time I ever saw an AI using bloom (veggiewolfie?), I guess theres not much else he can do right now.
Units 'nuff & a barb city by his side, I presume he has the barb trait:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199595&d=1231421623

The Calabim:
Alexis is furious with me at the end with only -6 relationship, has open borders with the Baron & ups! Lanun (guess I was wrong in my previous post!) & no worst enemy. She seems to be having the standard AI, roams the map, gets a barbcity occasionally but isnt really agressive or suicidal enough to start a war! Kept quiet, never wanted tribute, only thing I noticed: somewhen between turn 200-250 she switched to Aristocracy.

(Well, Im sortta glad I didnt need to wage war with Alexis &/or the Baron too, would have taken much more time, but then: Wheres the fun with the night&day cycles?!)

The Lanun:
When I got contact with Falamar I saw he had a boat out & thought: great, lets see his map a bit later & traded it for FoL, also wanting him to adopt it, before he got access to CoE! Turned out well, I got what I wanted! Someone asked before why Falamar was implemented in this scenario. I say maps for techs, didnt acquire his services very often though!
Only strange thing: He & the Baron never met.

The Svalts:
Rivanna the Wraith Lord adopted FoL pretty early & stayed with it almost until the end, CoE never spread to her southern cities & founded by Volanna Nox Noctis was build fairly late, very late, about turn 220 maybe.
Rivanna also was born as a great commander, if she really gets implemeted as colony leader she should get outta the list.
Oddity: Got a msg midgame near or in the Barons border, that the Black Mirror was killed, Alazkan was build a couple of turns before, but I never saw him or got the msg he was killed (sometimes not all msgs are displayed)!

The Ljos:
As mentioned before, Tessa & Amelanchier never used extra immigrationsettlers, maybe they got killed, we wont ever know.
Both emphasized the Priests a bit to much, but all Armytypes were there, small to midsized mixed stacks tried to seize cities.
Oddity: After Yvain was build & killed (for sure!) I happen to pass along near his graveyard & was astonished to see Amelanchier had an almost fresh Gilden in the vicinity despite the fact I build him, he was in my army & never died. I lost eyesight with the double having 2 EPs never to see or read about him again! I checked his cities if he maybe had a Shrine of Champions anywhere, since I read there could be an Issue, but no!
I'm not sure if Gilden as a national Hero can be build by each teammember once, but it shouldnt be so, hes a worldunit, one allowed!
(btw: his strategyinfo in the civopedia is out of date)

The Warfare:
No cityrazing, slow XP, my initial plan suddendly came to an halt after I found that out. I planned to take a midsized stack down south to exterminate Rivanna fast after scouting & building up the basic economy, and I also knew I needed mages lateron & techwise the Ljos & Svalts were pretty even, with us Ljos being a bit better.
I probably should have taken a small stack with Gilden out for a walk in the beginning, as some wrote having trouble with him. But being the builderturtle I am, I wont leave the house until the base is established & secured, what I did & needed, since I was probably the Ljos with the highest barbrate. I lost time but it did pay out & slowly added up my Stack of Doom. By the time it was near completion & Adepts impatiently awaited their xp, Rivanna took some of the southern barb cities & had her own SoD coming up my border, full with Assassins & some Nyxkins too.
I never experienced a full elvenonly war but read enough what to expect from the Svalts & with ending this Scenario I wont ever underestimate them now. I yearned for deer & cursed every Assassin & Nyxkin! Gilden & Kithra nearing the 100 EPs were mostly only good as def strikers, Kithra is pretty much useless against Nyxkins! I retreated the Channelers out of the SoD & fortified, forests were of not much advantage to me here & the one who attacks has almost always the higher casualities & I wasnt fond of loosing more time to rebuild troops!
Going south taking lightly defended cities with no risk in a fast pace, I was able to build up xp & integrate early Beastmasters as Jokers. I kept the Adepts in a seperate stack behind occasionally taking a barb out to finally get Mages & when i reached the original lands of Rivanna they got ready one by one with careful planning: spreaded out cities with a high culture output allowed my goal of Air3 Fire3 & Nature3, the adepts could concentrate on Combat, Mobility & Spellextension promos.

Without the Mages it would have been a tedious battle, I saw that with my teammembers! They hurled midsized stacks against the enemy towns only making the defenders stronger & the awful thing was, they loved priests & they loved their free tigers; tigers against sinister recon units, Rangers mostly but near the end the Svalts had Beastmasters too, so I really had to pressure things.

Resumee:
Except team/general AI issues the map seems to be very well designed, clever usage of sparse mountainridges & a good patchwork of forests, jungles & open lands allows for a wide variety of wildlife, getting the Menagerie in no time & allowing many extra cages for surplus cultural output, deminishing the barb threat & aquiring quite a lot mananodes.
I love the storywriting too & sure the end is sad, but well, it fits the theme!

Get Alexis & the Baron running this scenario could get really awful.
Thanks & keep up the good work!

yours truly

Yggdrasil was not on top of any other resource on my map, like many people have reported, but it did not bear fruit for me. :( The resource yield of the tile was correct, and the city near it was receiving it's "We love our national parks" happiness boost, so otherwise it was working normally.

I am playing as Ljosafar 0.40m, epic monarch.
I have got the impression that the AI is very weak using the workers properly. So, in general I think people can use higher difficulties in this scenario than they use normally. I am playing builder style and giving us a tech headstart. My allies captured 2 cities from my foes, but I do not think this is any good, because they do not connect their cities. Even the cities they built themselves are not all connected.

Does the AI also get Immigrants?

There is a problem with the Werewolf good and werewolf bad events, the text of the events is not propberly displayed. Instead TXT_something is displayed.

The scenario is surelya lot of fun at the right difficulty level, (maybe Emperor or Immortal)

i got an offer to take over the calabim because of my amazing empire-building skills (jk-it was the first time i've been on top on noble). I doubt this is supposed to happen? I turned it down, but that would have been an interresting thing to do.

i got an offer to take over the calabim because of my amazing empire-building skills (jk-it was the first time i've been on top on noble). I doubt this is supposed to happen? I turned it down, but that would have been an interresting thing to do.

Thanks, Ill disable that in scenarios.

minor issue: the tile with yggdrasil also has cotton, looks kinda weird.

I was in the middle of executing a perfect sneak attack at the back of the Ljos empire with two dwarves from ruins, volanna and 4 bears, when Amelanchier pops March of the Trees and sends me crashing to the desktop at the beginning of my next turn. I've tried a couple of earlier reloads and the game always crashes when Amelanchier ends his turn in which he cast MotT. I'm playing patch L I think.

this one was nice, but way worse than I expected. night&day cycles looked totally useless since Duin had 1 city locked in the corner all the time, so I've never seen a single werewolf. plus, the map is kinda big and tends to slow down my pc at end-game. luckily I ended it before it became unbearable :D

there's both a Ljosalfar and a Svartalfar leader with green cultural borders. that should be changed as it's hard to tell whose territory it is when you look at the minimap

I was able to build Gilden Silveric, but not Yvain. it seems that my allies started him before I had the chance to >.<

playing as the Ljolsalfar, there's no deer around. this makes Stirrups pretty useless since you can't get Fyrdwells :(

I played this as Ljos, patch p and I have a few comments/questions (some have already been mentioned):

Why does only Thessa start with some pre-explored terrain?

I played as Thessa... As the Svar were miles away and Amel was the main buffer, I decided to turtle to help my allies on point (research and build all-city wonders) until I'd developed an unstoppable economy. Alexis couldn't resist, as expected. A decent-sized Calabim army appeared on my borders and I got ready to click the March of the Trees button. She declared, which obviously crossed the threat tolerance on my allies, as they all casted too. It didn't stop me from casting and wiping her out before all my Treants disappeared, but Amel and Aren completely wasted the spell (and destroyed their economy for a few turns for no reason as well). It's not the end of the world, but Aren is currently getting rolled by the two Southern Svarts while I'm busy conquering Volanna for Amel, and she could really use the spell right about now. If you can fix the AI to only cast when they are threatened by an army they aren't equipped to handle, that would be great. If you could get them to disband superfluous Treants, that would be even better (or simply make them zero maintenance units). You could also make the spell single use for the entire team (i.e., if anyone casts, it auto-casts the same/next turn for the other two), so you using it deprives the other two of using it when it suits them, and not helping your allies potentially loses it for you as they may cast.

City names: it would be nice if they were organized. Aren should have Evermore for obvious reasons and maybe all the "E" cities. Maybe Thessa should get Hyll since she starts on a hill, etc.

I happened to be granted the Leaves holy city. It would be nice if one of my allies sent one of their Great Bards my way to build the Song of Autumn.

Aren started with quite a few goblin forts around her. She responded by building tons of workers and waiting almost 200 turns before destroying them and actually letting her workers leave her cities.

I got a Thane of Kilmorph from a dungeon. It seems kind of silly since you can't found Runes. Grey out the spread religion button at least, or simply disallow all non present religions' units from being a reward for lair exploration.

Maybe turn off map randomization. Yggdrasil is on corn for me, which has been mentioned, and there is not a single deer on the entire map, which hurts considering the Svar have plenty of Nyxkin.

In general, there seems to be a lot of silly combat. Amel will send a stack of 3-5 units into Svar territory and lose them all. Svars will respond with the same tactics. Each Svar civ would send a small party to Amel, so they would hang around his lands for a while, but they would rarely if ever pillage. They are currently having success against Aren, but that is probably because Gibbon and Alazkan have joined that party.

Aren seems to have the worst AI of all. I was getting a lot of immigrants, so I built her a couple cities and gifted them. She generally left them undefended and lost them to barbs until March of the Trees was casted and she took them back. I've gifted cities to Amel as well, and he sends defenders immediately. She also went on this crazy expansion south towards Baron chasing barb cities, which is why the two Southern Svarts are picking on her.

The most annoying thing in the scenario is the hero stealing. I don't think the PC should get all the heroes, but the AI isn't great with them either. If I research the tech, in its entirety (i.e., I contributed every single flask to its discovery), I should have first crack at building. I'm not sure how you can fix this, but setting the PC to having the first turn would work. Maybe you can just have the AI set to wait a few turns before building heroes and wonders, although both solutions do allow the player to get all the heroes.

Maybe the best solution to heroes is to randomly assign them once the tech is researched? Or make them entirely event based? For this scenario at least, that is probably the best solution as you can balance their arrival or at least make their arrival dependent on certain interesting conditions being met.

I just won as the Rivanna on Diety, and I have to say that this whole scenario played wonderfully! I received 2 extra settlers via immigration over the game, and Faeryl and Volanna both got one each. I simply used these main cities to build up and army, including Gibbon and Alazkan, and sent it after Amelanchier, gifting each city that I captured to Faeryl because I couldn't be bothered with taking care of them or the cost. This also boosted her power, and by the time I was fighting Thessa and Arendel I barely had to do anything, both my Alies had such massive armies doing the work for me that I just had to sit back and watch :)

As for the the Ljosalfar ending, I think it's perfect, and entirely suited. Infact I had to smile at Faeryl's intelligence.

Oh, I forgot to mention, for some reason, no on can use Iron. I have Iron, as do all my allies, and my Swordsmen only have bronze weapons, Iron does not show up in my city resource box, and Iron does not show up in my allies' trade screen.

I'd guess you don't have the tech needed to connect the resource yet. Smelting makes Iron visible, but Iron Working is needed in order to use it.

Thanks MC. Will research it next. I got smelting ages ago. Surprised my two team mates didn't go after it.

Teammates have a habit of researching the same thing you are researching unless you tell them to switch to something different.

actually, playing as Arendel, both my allies desperately wanted to research Necromancy. I kept telling them "no way, you'll do what I want!" , but in the end I got distracted for a couple turns and indeed they researched it and built a couple death nodes in their territory. that is SO not-elven! :lol:

I know it is nit-picky, but I really wish Arendel would start with Evermore.

I concur, and also think that she should be Green instead of Orange, and that Faeryl should be Grey instead of Blue.

I think it would be best to change Arendel to be player 1 and Faeryl player 4. That would make each civ's main leader have the civ's normal color and have the first chance to settle, so Evermore would (probably) be ruled by Arendal and and Thariss by Faeryl.

I concur, and also think that she should be Green instead of Orange, and that Faeryl should be Grey instead of Blue.

I think it would be best to change Arendel to be player 1 and Faeryl player 4. That would make each civ's main leader have the civ's normal color and have the first chance to settle, so Evermore would (probably) be ruled by Arendal and and Thariss by Faeryl.

I agree as well:

City names: it would be nice if they were organized. Aren should have Evermore for obvious reasons and maybe all the "E" cities. Maybe Thessa should get Hyll since she starts on a hill, etc.

Can't we just do separate city name lists for each leader?

Teammates have a habit of researching the same thing you are researching unless you tell them to switch to something different.

Really? They have been doing their own thing most of the game, both researching the same tech though. They occasionally switch to my tech, usually when they finish their tech and mine is nearly done.

How do you tell your team mates to do stuff?

When you aren't researching anything they'll pick something on their own, but generally they will go with whatever their ally is researching. If they have two allies researching something different they seem to pick one of those at random.


You can tell your permanent allies (and Vassals) what to research by selecting "We'd like you to research.." after selecting "I'd like to discuss something else" (I forget the exact wording, but it is something like that).

Oh cool. There never used to be anything interesting in that menu, so I stopped clicking on it. Just used ctrl and alt click to go straight to trade table or war.

It also lets to tell anyone with whom you have a common enemy (I think it used to only be permanent allies in vanilla, and allies/vassals in Warlords) which city they should attack. I'm not sure if that actually changes their war plans at all though.

Can't we just do separate city name lists for each leader?
I've noticed this problem all-round with each Scenario. Although exhaustive, the logical thing would be for each Scenario to have their own city list, that way we won't for example have the (Momus and GM related "spoilers"):
Innsmouth both off on some island populated by animals and near Perp's play-den...and near the elves too actually...speaking of which, we have two Jubilees too.
Of course, this is entirely cosmetic, so it's the least of priorities, although it does become very noticable in this scenario particularly due to there being 3x of each Elven Civ, so maybe it's a cosmetic priority for this scenario rather than all-round.

As for things on-topic about the scenario:
- I find it odd that the Ljo Capitals start built yet the Sva Capitals don't. Also, as someone else stated earlier, the colour schemes seem odd. Seems unthematic that Arendel wouldn't have the Ljo default Green and likewise, Faeryl having the Sva default Grey, being the respective Queens of either side. [Purely cosmetic] Also, as Rivanna, I have Green Borders much like Amelanchier.
- As someone else stated earlier, Rivanna and Volanna only begin with one trait, and whilst that's somewhat counterbalanced by the GC and Hero Hunter, it seems fairer for them to start out with 2nd traits and no GC/hero Hunter to make things more even. Since (from what I've seen), the 4 full leaders each begin with their own special unit in place of the GC/Hero-Hunter, maybe each one could simply begin with both their own Hero-unit (or GC in Riv's case) and give the Minor Sva leaders 2nd traits.
- Based on the Ljo ending:
In the main mod, Amelanchier and Thessa seem like they should be available to both Sva and Ljo. Admittedly, they're decieved into serving under Faeryl but nonetheless, they would serve under her - but this lies more in with a pet peeve of my mine in the main mod that the "Light" Elves have 3 leader choices and the "Dark" Elves only have 1 leader choice.

I've not seen the Sva ending, so I'm curious as to what that is and if it supports the idea of Amelanchier and Thessa working under Faeryl, decieved or not
- I never got the big deal about Faeryl, but the two Sva minor leaders are both... well as Falamar would say, "charming".

On Noble, this (too) scenario was pretty easy once I'd been firmly established. (I should probably notch up the difficulty a bit on these.) Playing as Thessa, I eliminated the Calabim with a quick Gilden-rush (having learnt from my first attempt, where they declared war on me in the midst of everything). After that, I took over the cities of the closest Svartalfar leader, and turned them over to my allies, leaving the AI to take care of the defense. This left me with a comfortable buffer zone, and I could concentrate on just building up an invincible army. The former Calabim cities, as well as new ones created with settlers from the immigrant events, gave me a rather strong infrastructure. I marched my mages forward and captured every remaining city with ease, once I'd accumulated about 20 of them.

My teammates built both of the Fellowship heroes, that was a bit annoying. -_- They also cast March of the Trees when I declared war on the Calabim, which was a bit pointless, since the vampires were nowhere near their borders.

I liked the idea of the day/night cycle, but I never noticed any real effect with it. It was as if it wasn't there.

With regard to the ending:

I have to say, from what I glimpsed of the discussion before finishing the scenario (without reading the spoiler tags), I expected something much worse. :)

I disagree with the people saying that the ending made your victory a complete loss. The outcome was still a major victory for the elven people - the previously divided two kingdoms were united back into one. Things could have been much worse: in plenty of fantasy settings, races that have split into two groups because of similar reasons never reunite, and stay in a bitter war for eternity, neither side ever gaining an upper hand. When a player defeats the Svartalfar, (s)he prevents all of that. The Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar are unified and reintegrated into a healthy whole, one that will probably go stronger from the experience.

Yes, the Faeryl did end up replacing Arendel. But then, if Arendel had the opportunity to choose between this outcome and one where the race remained split forever, don't you think she would have - should have - chosen this outcome?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. :)

To add to what Xuenay posted in his spoiler tags, Faeryl is hotter too, so it is a win-win imo. ;)

got a strange event: "Parith the elven" as Rivanna
Parith wants to go out of umbrawood to search some new allies
I said to him:"good luck".
some games later, in a custom play game, as Flauros of the Calabims, Parith come back: he says he's looking for allies, and one of the choices was to give him one of my vampires(the most exp...).
Chains events interracting between different games?
Bug?

Does anyone else see that event or am I the only one?

I got the event to send someone to look for allies, but I never heard back from that slacker.

Sent them on their way, but nothing happened-does it actually do anything?

Kael mentioned in a post on the forum, that if you start another game withought having completed splintered court, the guy will appear asking for your best unit. If you give it to him and the start splintered court again, he will come back with that unit. Give it a try.

EDIT: The guy will come even if you have completed splintered court, but, obviously, you will not get that unit you give, if you give it.

I'd like it if the entrance of each hero came with a pop-up, similarly with when you meet duin. In general more story elements would make this more interesting. but I'm still enjoying it as the svartalfar.

minor cosmetic issue--the svart champion has a square icon when everyone else has a more rounded one.

edit: also, slight typo in the ljusalfar victory text (which i read just for fun) in the last line. should be a comma before the final phrase. [spoiler]

which i read just for fun

isn't that the point? why else would you read it?

BTW, why one of the Grigori adventures in the main game is named Volanna? Is it considence or what?

When Kael made the minor leaders he took some of their names from Great People.

When Kael made the minor leaders he took some of their names from Great People.

Tch, talk about a lack of creativity. :p

Map-related nitpick, probably mentioned before:

A couple of deer resources scattered throughout the forests would be a good idea, for those of us who feel like building Fyrdwells.

I played with Arendel. I found the scenario to be a tad disappointing, probably because the others have been so outstanding. Maybe I'll try it again, but the biggest issue was that I found it to be too easy.

Strategy

Playing on my normal level (emperor) I found that I got the lead in score pretty quickly. Of course I got Guardian of Nature and I build Gilden on the first turn. I took a few turns to build Gilden which would help me defend while I was expanding.

I think I got the lead because the AI doesn't build enough workers. With Guardian of Nature and the FoL religion, the cities grow to very large size, and therefore a lot of tiles are worked. Add this to the fact that you start with 3 cities and that your workers are slow, you have to build a LOT of workers. I was using about 3 per city.

While I was building up, the good news was that Thessa became a powerhouse. She was expanding fast and took a few enemy cities. Later she defeated one of the enemy Svartalfar by herself.

I wasn't suere here if I was lucky that Thessa was so powerful, or if she became so strong because I took the burden on research and money production. In the meantime, I was getting priests in my capital. This gave me a bunch of great priests that I used to build the altar up, I got to level 5 by the end of the game. My production city (workshops all over the place) was churning out longbowmen and later champions, I could build about 2 every 3 turns. The capital was churning out priests of leaves, which were able to start with about 15 XP's by the end of the game. My third city churned out adepts.

I like to get adepts early so that they can become mages by the time of the 'big push'. I had about 15 mages or adepts by about turn 200. My first node was a body node and then I went for air to get Maelstorm.

I got about 3 cities from the settler event -- obviously, always leave money to be able to buy a settler. I took about 4 barbarian cities and had a nice 10 city empire. Thessa was holding if not winning, and I built up my SoD. I had a nice lead in gold and production.

After getting the other cities, I got a water node; I didn't use it but I always try to get water with the Ljosalfar, their kryptonite of course is having their forest burn so it is good to be prepared. I then got a shadow node, fire node and an enchantment node.

My SoD had about 15 level 4 through 7 Priest of leaves, about 10 mages, and about 15 longbowmen and champions with a few recon units on about turn 200 or so. I cast haste, shadowalk, Maelstorm, a few fireballs to take down the defense, enchanted blade and arrows, and regenerate as my main support spells. I then sent in the 15 tigers and overpowered the defenders. I took down Rivanna's main army. I lost some longbowmen and champions, replaced them, and took her down. I rested about 5 -10 turns to get reinforcements and then stormed through Faeryl for a fairly easy win.

I suspect I won the game early -- by building up for later with lots of workers and getting a huge base, I'm sure I was vulnerable to an early attack, but they didn't take me or my allies down. So I built a classic SoD and overpowered them.

Minor bugs

I reported this on the main bug list, but I also got Yggdrasil on a resource (corn) and couldn’t use either.

I founded Empyrean and Kilmorph from disciples in dungeons.

Neat idea

I really liked the idea of the time of the day affecting the units for the werewolves and the vampires; unfortunately, it wasn’t used in my game. I didn’t see any reason to attack them they would have been a distraction.

I could have turned over the Svartalfar leaders to them, but there wasn’t much of a game reason. I can see bringing in a powerful ally cam help, however, the trigger is that the enemy id defeated. I think the nature of FfH or even Civ IV is that victory ‘snowballs’. That is, once I defeated one of the Svartalfar leaders I had a big lead and I didn’t particularly need the help. I think we all know that in the FfH world, offers of help usually come with strings attached…..
Ending

When I first got the ending, I was upset. The next day I thought about it and I liked it a lot better, but I may have a suggestion. I guess I’m not too upset with what happened to Arendel but I don’t think that Faeryl should ‘win’ either, I’m thinking more of a Shakespearean or Greek Tragedy.

I do think after the civil war that ‘the elves live happily ever after’ is not really a great FfH ending, so I do like the effect of the ending. That is, a unified elven nation with a powerful leader attached to her people would almost certainly make them a powerhouse. Instead, we now have a powerful leader, but at odds with the people, and almost inevitably something will go wrong. Either Faeryl will betray her people or she will be discovered almost certainly but either way the elves will not have peace. The ability for Arendel to return is intriguing.

But I am disappointed in the suddenness and that the result seems to come out of left field (or as was said above, kind of a deus ex machina).

My suggestion is that the leader(s) (especially Arendel) have a choice. Somehow, they get a choice from a god or elder spirit that she can choose between success for herself or for her people. (Of course, these are both bad…) This choice theme has a lot of analogies in fantasy, for instance Achilles’ choice or Hile Troy’s in The Power That Preserves.

If Arendel is a good goody (as I suspect most people playing Arendel will role play to do) you also see a cut scene where Faeryl gets the same choice and takes personal victory. At the end of the game we get the current result. If she takes the personal victory, then after a win Faeryl is imprisoned, but that something bad happens to the realm. As an example, the elves realize that hell terrain is spreading to their ancient forest and they can’t stop it. It is destroying the forest and with it heir power and they are starving. A similar ending can be made if the player plays Faeryl.

Best wishes,

Breunor

I beat this a while ago as Arendel, and really wanted to post my reaction to the ending. But I was really upset, so I decided to wait until I had a clear head. But when the shock died down, I was replaced with disappointment, and didn't feel like posting.

The shock/anger was brought about because one of my favorite leaders is now dead. That coupled with the fact that I effectively lost when I won. The disappointment came when it sank in that this is now cannon. :mad:

I agree with Bruenor's assessment.

Actually, when I first beat it, I read the ending text and (before I got to the screaming part) I thought that Arendel and Faeryl were the same person and had been for a very long time, perhaps even before the Age of Winter. You know, a bit of split personality thrown into the works. That was actually a more appealing outcome, because then the ending is no longer "Haha, you died" but "You succeeded, just not in the way that you thought." It provides a unified Elven kingdom with either an insane or corrupt ruler.

It may be too late, but I would really like to see this scenario ending changed to something else.

Finished it... played as the Svartalfar, and easily won!

Volanna prooved to be quickly powerful enough for disrupting activities around my closest neighbor's cities, giving me tiem for growing.
When Gilderic, weaken by some attacks from Barabarian came too close from Volanna, my hero added a prestigious head to his already large trophy room...
When Alazkahn the Assasin arrived, there is no match for his double strike, especially once he learns blitz...

I have only 1 request. Only 1.

GIVE US THE 3 SVARTALFAR IN THE REGULAR FFH !!! PLEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAASE!!!!!!!!!:bowdown:

It is the 1st time I see a new interrest in the Elfes fight, with a balance between the 3 Ljosalfar and what is currently only 1 Svartalfar.
I do believe we need to be able to play, in custom mode, with the 2 blocks, Neutral/Good and evil elves...
It is too good !!!...

Going to finally comment on some more of these. Don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way...I enjoyed the scenario. But...this one I don't think lived up to its potential.

The Splintered Court is a good example of one of the things I've grown to dislike about a few of the FFH scenarios...the special rules of the scenario end up conflicting with either other special rules or the goal of the scenario. This one is an example of the latter, while The Black Tower is an example of the former (I'll comment on that one in its own thread later.)

The "time of day" mechanic was, in my play through this scenario, almost utterly worthless. It might as well have not even been there.

Even assuming that either the Baron or Alexis DoW one of the courts, which doesn't seem to happen often from my experience, the likelihood that it's against you and that they're close enough to you to matter (and not just pestering one of your allies) is very very small. On top of this, it's very easy (especially as Svartalfar) to spread your religion to them and win them as friends for the rest of the game.

On top of this, assuming that you end up giving up the rival leaders to the Baron and Alexis, they don't even maintain war for very long, and try to get out of it as soon as possible. The options to give the leaders over to them is just not worthwhile, especially if you consider the punishment for it later in the case of giving one to the Baron. If this is intended to be a "stupid choice" then it works, but if it's meant to provide any actual advantage it fails to do so.

In a scenario where the actual goal is to play as or against the vampires/werewolves, this would have been a fun mechanic to play with, but it doesn't really do anything here, so it's a missed opportunity. Significantly strengthening the Baron and Alexis, and making them auto DoW both courts until the sacrifice is given (at which point they peace the one that helped them) would change all this, but I'm not sure that's the direction best for the scenario in order to maintain its focus.

Also, I'm going to agree with whoever mentioned making one of the Svartalfar leaders male and one neutral. Just for visual balance if nothing else.

As for the endings, I liked them. :p

What is the punishment for trading away an evil leader to Duin? And reversed with Calabim?
Seemed extraordinarily easy, got Silveric and wiped the northern Svarts, then turned south and alternated between two remaining ones. gibbon kept on stealing archers so it was difficult to conquer last city...

Okay, I have a couple of issues so far that are irking me. I'm playing the good elf lady.

1) I can see just about all of the map and there is not a single deer on it. Kinda blows that I can't build one of my unique units. Is this normal?

2) I researched Commune with Nature fairly quickly to get Yvaine and Druids. I built Yvaine after jacking around with turns and research to avoid my team building him first. However, I appear to have no access to Druids at all. I can't upgrade a PofL that I'm fairly certain is at the level nor can I build one. There's not even a grayed out option when you check the queue inside the city. Are Druids available in this scenario? bug? please help...I need these magic treehuggers badly

What alignment were you?

I'm playing the one good elf Ljosalfar

Only neutral players can build druids. Good players get paladins instead and Evil get Eidolons.

I see...cool thanks. Any ideas on how to get Yddrassil to work. it has cotton on it

It doesn't have the fruit with it? That's just incredibly bad luck... If you go to WB then you could place the fruit there.

Ha...I'd never used WB before, but I think I actually fixed it. It took me a little bit to figure it out but the tool is actually pretty intuitive. Y's a nice little plot to have.

thanks

What is the punishment for trading away an evil leader to Duin? And reversed with Calabim?
Seemed extraordinarily easy, got Silveric and wiped the northern Svarts, then turned south and alternated between two remaining ones. gibbon kept on stealing archers so it was difficult to conquer last city...

To Duin, the leader appears as a Doviello civ in Mulcarn Reborn.

I don't think anything (yet) happens if you give a leader to the Calabim.


I found it was far easier playing as the Svartalfar then as the Ljosalfar because as the Svartalfar (Volanna) I started with a hero unit that I promptly went on a rampage with.

Whereas none of the Ljosalfar civs start with such a unit, but they do get Gilden Silveric- but they have to build him first.

so is kael ever gonna post the ending text for winning as the svarts? or is the ending with the ljos the only ending?

I am having massive problems with the latest version 0.41d crashing to desktop.

I can't load the Splintered court scenario. How can I report this bug properly?

I can't provide a saved file because I can't start the scenario?

Any suggestions?

Volanna still refuses to recognize the power of the Winter Court, rather than Summer Court, when captured by the Ljosalfar. This seems a bit odd, but could be interesting if it was implied elsewhere that she had been planning to overthrow Faeryl, and that Faeryl liked using troops dressed as Ljosalfar to take down those dark elves that betrayed her. (For a moment I thought that was what was happening, but then I remembered that it was Rivanna that the Svartalfar victory screen said was considering overthrowing Viconia. There is not reason they couldn't both be disloyal though.)



Also, I still really think that Thessa and Rivanna need to come back as Calabim leaders in some later scenario if given to Alexis, just like Volanna and Amelanchier return as Doviello if given to Duin. Maybe there should be up to 3 Calabim civs in the Wages of Sin?

Greatly enjoyed this scenario. The two scripted events and the unique setup made this interesting. Really made you focus on your few cities, which is a good combo with the elves (well, at least the Ljos).

I'm new to FFH2, so this was my first time playing any elves. I figured since this is a civil war situation between two queens, I might as well play in-character and therefore I chose to play as Arendel the Summer Queen.

I soon discovered that this put me all the way out of the action, which was a little unfortunate. It took a while to reach the front line. Though it did allow me to build up in safety, and I was able to quickly expand without any trouble.

I built Gilden and researched all the elf-appropriate techs and built cottages everywhere (and wow, they're amazing with the Ljos!). Unlike others, I was not really impressed with Gilden... even though he eventually got up to 300xp and became quite good, being an Archer unit type really makes it hard to pimp him out as a city destroying monster. He's no doubt great on defense though.

I eventually got some Priests and Longbowmen, and moved east, since my ally was getting pressured by the Calabim. Went okay at first, but increasingly became harder. Totally forgot about the "day/night" cycles... wish I had remembered in hindsight.

Near the end of the campaign vs Calabim I was having a really hard time cracking cities. No catapults hurts, and I hadn't really been concentrating on adepts, much less mages (my leader was Spiritual, so I figured I'd play to her strengths and pump out priests and tech in that direction as well).

I read the FFH2 manual though, and got really excited about Yvain and druids, so I teched to that! I had 3 Nature mana, and was salivating at the +2 affinity for Yvain. Imagine my frustration when I saw that my ally was building Yvain as soon as I researched the tech (he had also "stolen" the mounted hero). I also didn't see any druids, and figured they must have been disabled for this scenario... I didn't realize it was because I was of good alignment, d'oh!

Eventually wiped out the Calabim, which helped my two allies. Then I moved down and took over Volanna. I decided to play in-character and not turn her over to the Baron, which in hindsight was probably good... I only encountered him at the very end, stuffed in a remote corner.

So I moved my attention to Faeyla (sp?), but pretty much had to wait till I teched to Sorcery and built up mages with Fireball (and later Maelstrom).

Alazhkam was a pain -- I can see him being lots of fun playing as the Svart! But once I took him out and Gilden got the Mirror, and eventually Blitz, he was finally a proper havoc-wreaking hero :)

Gibbon Giddeon (sp?) was on a hill staring into the sea, not sure what he was doing.

Once Faeyla was crushed, I got the event that she fled to the last remaining Svart encampment. Cool -- hadn't really thought about it, but I'm glad the scenario doesn't end there.

Eventually I took out the last Svart, and got the final ending text. Whoa! All I could keep thinking was "oh, wow". I did not see that coming... the text up to that point had been very typical of what I'd expect Arendel to do (except for allowing Esus worshipers).

The more I thought about it though, the more I started to think it didn't really make sense, and that it was more of a Deux Ex Machina. Why didn't Faeyla do so before? How could Faeyla expect to have a chance to do that vesus Arendel, with her spiritual protection? Heck, even Decius was able to see through the Sidhar's "shadow magic" (with some priestly help). Then I wondered why "fake-Arendel" gave away so much power to the other Ljo leaders.

Kael's reply does help to answer some of this. And I do realize that this was Faeyla's "backup" plan. I'm sure she would have preferred to "win" the civil war, but at least this way she gets to keep some power even though she lost the war.

I finally ended up feeling bad for Faeyla -- she has to act like Arendel for the rest of her life, pretending to be "good" (the opposite of how she'd want to naturally act). Ouch.

Anyhow, very interesting scenario! Would love to see a scenario where you get to rescue/uncover Arendel.

Suggestions to improve it:

More scripted events! This one had at least three (the two Svart leaders, plus sending a messenger to get help), but it's the scripted events and the lore that really make these scenarios interesting.
Have the day/night be more obvious, and/or have more of an effect.
Move the Baron up... he did nothing the whole scenario (unlike the Calabim!), and I can see why with such a huge marsh between him and everyone else.
Maybe move the Svarts and Ljos closer together -- the Svarts never really attacked me or my allies (except near the very end), due to the distance in-between.
Prevent allies from building heroes -- I've seen this mentioned a couple of times in this thread.
Add deer. I did eventually realize that none existed, though it didn't impact me personally -- I was trying to play IC as much as possible so mostly stuck to archers and magic wielders.

I finally ended up feeling bad for Faeyla -- she has to act like Arendel for the rest of her life, pretending to be "good" (the opposite of how she'd want to naturally act). Ouch.

Well, she is naturally deceptive, and I do think that she derives pleasure from pretending to be someone else and deceiving people. And yeah, your reaction to it is certainly interesting - being sorry for Faeryl never crossed my mind.

Or maybe she'll excel at wearing the mask or Arendel so much, that her "true" personality will slowly change for at least a bit better. Yay for interesting redemption scenarios.

Well, she is naturally deceptive, and I do think that she derives pleasure from pretending to be someone else and deceiving people. And yeah, your reaction to it is certainly interesting - being sorry for Faeryl never crossed my mind.

Or maybe she'll excel at wearing the mask or Arendel so much, that her "true" personality will slowly change for at least a bit better. Yay for interesting redemption scenarios.

Always having to choose the "good" or "right" option, as opposed to the perhaps more gratifying or sadistic or immediate option, will no doubt be very frustrating at first for Faeryl. But you're right, in time it may come as second nature to Faeryl, since I believe she'll "play" Arendel's role without any problems.

I am having massive problems with the latest version 0.41d crashing to desktop.

I can't load the Splintered court scenario. How can I report this bug properly?

I can't provide a saved file because I can't start the scenario?

Any suggestions?

I found that if you go to single player->play now->select any options until your map is loaded up
You should be able to load the scenarios. I was having this problem too and tried my steps above which I saw as a solution for another thread. This also works to clear up any crashing issues for multiplayer.

Well, she is naturally deceptive, and I do think that she derives pleasure from pretending to be someone else and deceiving people. And yeah, your reaction to it is certainly interesting - being sorry for Faeryl never crossed my mind.

Or maybe she'll excel at wearing the mask or Arendel so much, that her "true" personality will slowly change for at least a bit better. Yay for interesting redemption scenarios.

That would be interesting. Instead of the current ending, what if an event popped up after you read the ending from Faeryl's point of view, and your choice will dictate how she proceeds with her reign- does she morph the Ljosalfar into a nation of cunning and feral natures, or does she adopt Arendel's policies and become a strange balance of both court's leaders, leading her to become Neutral for a later Scenario?

Started this and an epic war is unfolding, in which hundreds of units are killed on each side... I am Phaedra, btw.

It seems that the Yggdrasil (unique features in general, I believe I found an empty Pyre in one of the other scenarios) doesn't spawn with their proper ressources - mine had raw mana this game, but I couldn't build a mana node due to Yggdrasil :sad:

Also, there are still no deer, so I can't build Fyrdwells :cry:

Are these going to be fixed, eventually?

Also, there are still no deer, so I can't build Fyrdwells

Are these going to be fixed, eventually?

Seems like no. Go to WB and fix it yourself.

Can I please have my beloved Arendel back! I think a second scenario requiring the completion of this scenario would be great! Faeryl is accidentally revealed to her fellow rulers. She controls the heart of the Elven Nation by suggesting what they've discovered is false. As with everything, some don't believe her, but most stick with their wonderful (fake) Arendel.

Faeryl, perhaps mentally morphed by having to pretend to be Arendel, just doesn't want to kill her sister (which she could do), but needs to keep her sister buried to not be executed by her own empire. She doesn't even want to think of going into Exile.

The scenario, as won by Faeryl, would produce a Svartalfar victory. She would then be seen as Arendel and only needs to wait for everyone to forget before she goes about putting back into place the Svartalfar ways. A twist could be that if you play as Faeryl, you have the Ljosalfar civilization trait instead of the Svartalfar civilization trait. Or both! As those who hold onto the prospect that what Amelanchier and Thessa have discovered, they flee to (fake) Arendel's Ljosalfar nation. Also, If you play as Faeryl, you'll see yourself as Ljosalfar!

As played by Amelanchier or Thessa, you see Faeryl's nation as Svartelfar. Faeryl still has the civilization traits of both the elven nations. You, as a Ljosalfar, only work with the Ljosalfar trait.

This is some of the best stuff. When you pick leaders, you pick Faeryl, Amelanchier, or Thessa. If you pick Faeryl, you see yourself as Faeryl. Amelanchier and Thessa, pretty sure of themselves, call you Faeryl. If you pick Amelanchier or Thessa, you would see Faeryl as Arendel who is pretty sure she's Arendel. But you're pretty sure she's not. (If you're Amelanchier, you're pretty sure she's hot ;) )

I don't know if I have to point this out, but the obvious conflict is a civil war... not reignited, though, because this one is under slightly different pretentions.

About half way through the scenario right now. Playing as thessa, I have champions and longbowmen and summons approaching the enemy to wipe them out, with a good sized group of allies to back me up.
The question is... I am around turn 200 i think and have only had the immigrant thing happen once. I also conquered the calabim (they started next to me and declared war on me), so I have a total of 7 cities right now. Do the AI ever get immigrants too? I think the scenario should dictate, that whenever I get the immigrant event, all of the other AIs on the map also get a free settler (they should not get an immigrant event, cus who knows which one they will pick [plus they never keep 100 gold around because they don't know they should; so it would be best if they each just got a free settler])

(ps i think the lack of deer is a balancing thing, because the council of esus kind of sucks so they need an edge somewhere by having no deer for the good guys)

I just finished the scenario as Faeryl. It was a lot of fun. I agree with what a lot of other people said here regarding making the day/night cycles more prominent and making the reward for gifting the leaders a little more significant. Also I find that the more events you have in a scenerio the better the scenerio is as a whole.

About the problem that people are having with allies building hero units before the player gets a chance to, I believe I have a solution that I used in my game to make sure I get my heros. I think that the problem is that you have your allies researching what you are researching. So one turn before you get a Hero enabling tech, ask your allies to switch to researching something else.
Then you complete the research on YOUR turn, not on THEIRS.

Lots and lots of fun.. but if the other Svartalfar leader cherrypick your heroes from you.. say goodbye.

Just finished this, playing as Arendel. Very interesting (and unexpected) ending. Had seen an un-spoiler-tagged reference to it before, but

had assumed that was the Svart ending, what with it essentially being a victory for Faeryl Viconia (and now, with Arendel being buried alive, I see that Viconia's name is more meaningful than just a plain old re-use of a Baldur's Gate name!).

Anyway, I got cotton on my Yggdrasil too, so I WB deleted the cotton to get my fruit. (Didn't use WB otherwise, of course.) While it was a pain not having deer to get the fyrdwell, I do confess to a perhaps over-sentimental attachment to that unit (I added my Decius great commander to it in Against the Grey, and it defeated about half the total enemies on the map), so it probably wouldn't matter to most. I still did feel a bit jealous of the svarts with their nyxkin. ;-)

I found the scenario decent and fun overall, but with a few strange happenings. For instance, I wiped out Alexis before any of the svart leaders, because she kept harassing Amelanchier's cities. However, after turning down Duin's offer for Volanna (cause that would've been super-evil), I had Alexis asking for Rivenna once I defeated the Wraith Lord (which was just before the end of the turn that signalled my victory, as I took out Faeryl between the two). Since I'd already destroyed the Calabim, that was a bit of a WTF moment. ;-) Also, I found that, when I asked my allies to attack a certain city, they didn't make much of an effort. I pretty much won the whole thing by myself. (Maybe I should have given them more time/notice.)

Getting back to the ending,

I found it very fitting in terms of the leaders' personalities. In fact, as "Arendel" was having her big funeral for Vicky and giving her various lofty speeches, I actually found it slightly OTT in terms of super-goodiness. Almost diabetes-inducing, at times, in its sweetness, holiness, and tolerance. So, in a way, I actually felt slightly vindicated when I found it was Viconia saying all those things, not Arendel. But I still felt a bit cheated at "losing" being my reward for winning, and I agree with some others in questioning the plausibility of the grand switcharoo - especially when you get the option to choose the fates of the other two leaders, but not Viconia. Anyway, I hope that there might, one day, be a follow-up scenario with the goal of freeing Arendel. :) Otherwise I might have to write bad fanfic, and no one wants that. :D

I defeated Thessa and got the offer from the Calabrim to make her a dark queen, but if I accept it's Barron Durin Halfmorn that I get improved relations with and joins the war.
I've attached the save file right before I capture the last of Thessa's cities.