I'm aware that bhall's heaven still exist as good and holy place even though she is not so are there any angels of bhall that are still loyal to good and still dwell within her heaven? or have remain loyal to good but have abandoned her hevaen. I am also aware that it's slowly falling in to decay.

I was under the impression that she killed all of the good angels when she fell excluding Brigit.

The Civilopedia indicates that Brigit is the only one of Bhall's angels who remained holy who was not slain, but Kael had previously stated that there were a lot of angels who fled to serve other gods (most went to Lugus, but there were also many who now serve Bhall and some who probably serve the other good gods too Junil). I personally prefer to think that all the angels to fought with Brigit against Bhall, but that there were others who simply abandoned both Bhall and Brigit before they fought each other during Bhall's fall. It seems these angels might not have been true to their element of passion, and so their elements and personalities would have been changed to match their new lords.


I believe that the same pedia entry says that Bhall's heaven was destroyed with that one thought of Bhall, but Kael had also stated that her heaven remains but is empty. I prefer to think that it was damaged and that portions of it fell, but a large portion of it remains intact, waiting for Brigit to ascend there and claim her mistress's godhood as her own.

Is Bhall's godhood vacant ? I've read nowhere she changed her domain from fire to another sphere. Furthemore, none of the other fallen gods have been replaced (as far as I know), which is quite logical, as they don't change their sphere, but just their alignment.

It seems to me a god needs to be killed before he can be replaced. (ie : Danalin have not been replaced by one of his angel)

Her godhood isn't vacant but it's corrupted. If Brigit could become the new god of Fire (True Element = Passion?) then there would be two versions of the element. Or that's how I see it.

She is currently residing in Agares hell and he is probably her closest ally atm, so she is probably influenced by him, making Bhaal the God of Indifference.

Well, all the other evil gods are corrupted, so why no one replaced them ? I don't know why people decided Bhall could be replaced, I still think only the definitive death of a god allows for his archangels the possibility to ascend to godhood.

As stated in the story describing the fall of Bhall, a god is able to destroy his angels and archangels just by willing to, so I can't see how Brigit is supposed to overthrow her mistress.

Well, Bhall didn't destroy Brigit then...
And other gods have been replaced. Lugus became the god of Truth, when Esus became god of Lies; Sirona is the god of Hope, Agares while Agares is despare; and Brigit could become god of Rightius Passion, while Bhall is Heated Anger.

Well, all the other evil gods are corrupted, so why no one replaced them ? I don't know why people decided Bhall could be replaced, I still think only the definitive death of a god allows for his archangels the possibility to ascend to godhood.

As stated in the story describing the fall of Bhall, a god is able to destroy his angels and archangels just by willing to, so I can't see how Brigit is supposed to overthrow her mistress.

If she gets Bhall to put one foot on Erebus, the matter is dealt with. If you could trick any god into doing so, it'd be Bhall. Unfortuantely, the gods who are experts into manipulating and tricking others (Mammon and Esus) have no reason, to the best of my knowledge, to want her dead.
Bhall's other former followers may feel otherwise, but perhaps Brigit has no intention of attempting such a mission, but rather redeeming her goddess. After all, Bhall did spare Brigit. She looks to be the most redeemable of the evil gods.

Bhall's other former followers may feel otherwise, but perhaps Brigit has no intention of attempting such a mission, but rather redeeming her goddess. After all, Bhall did spare Brigit. She looks to be the most redeemable of the evil gods.

That would be more fitting to Brigit passion,not to abandon her intial objective after all these centuries.
I hope for Erebus Bhall will redeem, as a world without passion must be darn boring.

I was under the impression that Bhall didn't change from Passion to Indifference, but rather from a protective, righteous kind of passion for goodness, to a wild destructive angry passion

Double Post!

Triple post!

I was under the impression that Bhall didn't change from Passion to Indifference, but rather from a protective, righteous kind of passion for goodness, to a wild destructive angry passion

Well, possibly. Pick your choice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoic_Passions) :p

Double Post!

Triple post!

please do not spam

please do not spam

I think he might've accidentally posted the same thing three times and edited the extra ones afterwards so as to avoid duplicates. They were all posted at the same time and I don't think there's a "delete post" button on this forum.

Do we have any descriptions of what Bhall's heaven looks like? I mean we have a generally good idea of each of the hells look like more or less, but aside from from a brief glimpse of the netherworld, and Ogma's rather fantastic if not amnesiac prone vault, the heavens are bit of a mystery...

Unless of course I'm missing something.

There is a description of Junil heaven in Sphener pedia entry.

*Checks*

Sigh... Not what I pictured, I always imagined Junil's heaven as a sort of Celestial Bureaucracy, with Sphener's greatest battle ever being him going through form, after form, after form, just get to organize a meeting with Junil.

On topic; Also what became of all the lesser souls that were hanging out there? Did they fall with her and become manes? Or are they just sort of scratching their heads wondering where all the fire and passion has gone?

*Checks*

Sigh... Not what I pictured, I always imagined Junil's heaven as a sort of Celestial Bureaucracy, with Sphener's greatest battle ever being him going through form, after form, after form, just get to organize a meeting with Junil.

Remember that one of the major complaints that the Order has against the Empyrean is that the Empyrean talks, and the Order acts. The Order is not constrained, they are not muddled, their laws arent compromised. There is only one perfect action, and little tolerance for anything else.

Bwahaha! I knew that jab at Junil would drag you out Kael! Now please describe what Bhall's heaven looked like please. It a question only you would really be able to answer.

Bwahaha! I knew that jab at Junil would drag you out Kael! Now please describe what Bhall's heaven looked like please. It a question only you would really be able to answer.

I dont know, I havent really thought about it.

Bwahaha! I knew that jab at Junil would drag you out Kael! Now please describe what Bhall's heaven looked like please. It a question only you would really be able to answer.

I should imagine it would be warm. :p
I think Bhall's heaven falls under the definition of "not yet fully imagined." I imagine it as sort of like Valhalla, with drinking, partying, fighting, et cetera.
EDIT: Ninja'd... and I guessed correctly about "not yet fully imagined." I'm keeping my version.
EDIT 2: The version of MC I keep in my head (rather like Perpentach does...) just reminded me that fighting is Camulos' sphere, not Bhall's, so I feel like clarifying lest the real MC attack me. The perpetual war in Camulos' vault would be a meaningless, perpetually changing slaughter, just in the name of slaughter, where each side thoroughly burns with hatred for the other. The fighting in my imagined Bhall's vault would be more like a sport than anything, with clear rules, and both sides getting together and laughing about it afterwards.

Oh... well alright then. At least I got my answer.

I imagine that her vault would be one of great passion, filled entirely with flames of great heat and light. I tend to think that Bhall's fall fragmented her heaven but did not destroy it entirely, and that parts of it were saved by Lugus and Junil, who merged these regions with their own heavens. I tend to think that Lugus's heaven became the Empyrean ("in or on the fire") when it merged with a large chunk of Bhall's heaven, which may have previously gone my that name.

I imagine that many lesser souls, both angels and dead human souls that had not ascended into being angels yet, fell with her but that many also fled to other vaults, especially to Lugus and Junil.



We need to get Kael to reveal all he knows about every vault.



There are 2 gods who I have a hard time imagining having their own Vaults: Dagda and Ceridwen.

Actually, I don't have a problem with Dagda having a vault, but that vault would have to be Erebus. How can you have a plane of pure balance, or moderation taken to the extreme? It seems best to me to have his vault be the one made of equal parts of all the gods precepts, which is "The Prime Material Plane." I guess he could have other planes that operate just like Erebus does (actually, the fall from heaven history seems to imply that the gods made numerous worlds before Agares' fall, not just one apiece), but it wouldn't fit the normal pattern of a vault of a pure precept.

For Ceridwen, I can't really think of a plane made of "pure connections" either. Hers would be a disjoint domain consisting not of planes but of every connection and void between planes. Basically, the Ether. Of course, she may have many little pocket dimensions hidden in the ether for her own purposes, but none would be a real vault like those of their siblings.

Bhall is fire, passion, rapid change.... so I guess a drunken Rave/Orgy with plenty of weapons "just in case"


;)

I don't think a drunken orgy would make much sense for the goddess of righteous indignation. Her heaven was created before she fell, and while it was damaged in the process she has not yet been able to fashion a hell of her own to replace it. Whatever remains of her heaven is still a realm of holy fire.

Passion, hmmm... Visions just floated before my eyes of flamenco dancers and samba and loud latin music and bullfights and brief, gentlemanly battles over percieved insults. Kind of like stereotypical visions of Spain of old. But probably with jungle drums and techno thrown in.

I tend to think of Ceridwen's vault as being something-like Xen, from Half-Life, a drifting mass rocks with downward gravity, with all the platforms cnnected by portals, as well as portals to other realms.

I tend to think of Ceridwen's vault as being something-like Xen, from Half-Life, a drifting mass rocks with downward gravity, with all the platforms cnnected by portals, as well as portals to other realms.

Or Sigil in the Planescape DnD universe.

I guess since we're sharing our views of the vaults I'd pitch in. I'm not sure if every vault is material, or if some are abstract. If Bhall's was the realm of passion, then the extreme negative would be obsessive hate. Her corrupted vault would be like one big isolated cabin full of plotting paranoids, gritting teeth, and explosive violence.

I'm wondering about her evilness; does her fall mean she's evil in the Vote No On Compact sort of way? She's filled with despair, she goes down, does she change her mind? I guess the question is what will she do when she recovers, but I don't think any has an answer for that.

As for the other corrupted vaults, I find that each evil angel can represent one of the seven sins:

Aeron = Lust: Body mana, Vampires (commonly seen as metaphors for lust), Alexis :mischief: (kind of neglecting rage a bit though)
Agares = Pride: Refusal to give up his creations, the first to defy the One
Camulos = Wrath: Avatar of Wrath, Revenge is a good reason for war
Ceridwen = Gluttony: Magic tends to consume and addict, The cosmos are all-encompassing and stars lead to black holes (sorry if those seem like a stretch, it's a fairly strong association in my head)
Esus = Envy: :yoink:
Mammon = Greed: Just a wild guess, although Gluttony much better serves the Balseraphs
Mulcarn = Sloth: Stasis, etc.

Like I said, I don't know if they are totally material or abstract, but I think of them as actual vaults, as in places to keep stuff. Their essence is there and it's the influence they are having on Erebus. Erebus is like the middle of a giant Venn diagram, yeah? (I know that 4 circles is the limit for a Venn, but whatever.) Anyway, until we get more from Kael or unless someone defuncts something I've said, that's how things are in my head.

Edit: Whoops. The "Vote No On Compact" thing is way off. Should be something like the Powers of Creation Redistribution Initiative.

Ceridwen is definately not about gluttony.
She's got two major 'facets'.
the first is exemplified by her angel who is associated with pain. So perhaps this 'facet' would be physical pain.
the second facet is the one that lies opposite to nuentaselta (spelling) and which was best typified in her her seduction of kylorin. this 'facet' is about the relationships between people and how they can be negative, degrading, abjectifying, painful. So a domestic violence situation may fit into her sphere. So too would obsessive love (right kylorin?). Or a quest for power in some hierarchy.

I dont see gluttony in there anywhere.

My 2 :commerce:

I would think emotional pain is more up her sleeve, such as unhealthy broken relationships. Physical pain is much more a Camulos thing.

I thought so too, at least for the god, but what about her angel. Isn't she the angel of pain. If any sages want to jump in here and dispel my confusion, that would be great.

i.

The facts that Ceridwen is called the Queen of Pain and her Archangel Kanna is called the Mistress of Pain does not specifically mean that physical pain in in their domain. It may well be, but I am of the opinion that physical pain would fit Aeron best and that the pain they exemplify is the much more powerful emotional pain. It is of course possible that both types are in her precept, but the emphasis would be on the emotional The physical world of Erebus is in general but a manifestation of deeper psychological concepts.

In many ways Ceridwen seems to exemplify the Buddhist concept of Taṇhā, the thirst/desire/craving/addiction/unhealthy attachments that are the cause of all suffering (Dukkha), including but certainly not limited to physical pain. The fact that Taṇhā is thought to be responsible for reincarnation and that Ceridwen is the cause of Eve's reincarnation seems to support the idea that Taṇhā is her real precept. This concept seems rather close to what Aeron exemplifies too, but in a somewhat more esoteric way. A lot of gods precepts seem to overlap, with Aeron seeming very close to Camulos, Esus, Mammon, and Ceridwen. In fact, it is in Aeron's vault where demons are trained to channel the power of Ceridwen's realm. Aeron and Ceridwen really seem like the real leaders of the evil gods, with Agares being more of an inspirational figurehead who is too depressed to really do much personally. There is also a close connection between the Calabim and Sheaim, indicating that the spheres are quite close.



I should note that the association of Ceridwen with emotional pain, obsession, objectifying others, bad relationships, viewing yourself and others only through relationships (of all kinds, so as to include personal relations and a love of power), etc., is my idea and has never explicitly been confirmed by Kael or anyone on the team. It seems to be to the the logical extension of the sphere of dimensions and the ties that bind physical world together into the realm of the metaphysical, and it seems to fit with known lore, but that does not mean it was Kael's intention.

Kael's mentioned a lot how, in the beginning, he based a lot of FFH on the Death Gate Cycle. So maybe Bhall's vault was like the fire plane-planet-thing from that series, with its giant jungle, shinning cities and multiple suns?

I should note that the association of Ceridwen with emotional pain, obsession, objectifying others, bad relationships, viewing yourself and others only through relationships (of all kinds, so as to include personal relations and a love of power), etc., is my idea and has never explicitly been confirmed by Kael or anyone on the team. It seems to be to the the logical extension of the sphere of dimensions and the ties that bind physical world together into the realm of the metaphysical, and it seems to fit with known lore, but that does not mean it was Kael's intention.

that part put in bold is really cool. it kind of touches on other eastern concepts such as 'being', also as being yourself, and 'no-mindedness', which seem to be the opposite of Ceridwen's tanha thing, not really sure how to spell that.