How about this as our next city location?

Not to be a downer, but I'm not crazy about that spot for our first settler.

Negatives:
- more than 2 tiles from CERN = tough to defend (2 moves on roads, not 3)
- all of the resources need a cultural expansion except for one of the dyes (which CERN has already)
- it will grow slowly, as it has no access to any grasslands until we chop jungle (Iron Working)


I prefer the site CERN-4-1-1 (jungle hill north of a clam) This site will have immediate access to clams and rice, is a 1-turn move from CERN, gets us greater visibility into The Great Oceansea, and can work 3 mined grassland hills (10:hammers:) without a cultural expansion at size 4, which it can achieve fairly quickly due to the rice and clams. Good site to make workers for the other towns :yup:

I was also looking at 4-1-1. It will also get the cow when either it or CERN expands.

Another option is CERN-1-2-2-2 with clam+cow. This site lets us put another city CERN-4-4-1 or 4-4-4-1, in case there is more seafood lurking in the western sea.

I agree with peter is better to place at 4-1-1, but i would leave ana make a bit more exploration in the nearby east area to see whats there before deciding, also, ¿how long until cern cultural radious expand? would be great if that happens before the end of the settler.

The settler 'll be ready in 4 turns of now, after Archi has chopped the forrest. That is 2320 BC, CERN's next cult expansion is ~2000.

Three sites proposed for next city. I gave a look at them:

B (4-1-1) : 3 hills, grass cows=12 H; enough food. Lots of overlap with CERN,so
I do not count twice the overlaped tiles. A military city, but C plays the same
role and it's better.

C (1-2-2-2) : 4 hills, grass cows=15 H. Food a little faster, can perform with
just 5 pop and can begin output quickly. Later, food is enough for 2
workshops. Total development not possible due to overlap.

A (3-3-3-2) : 4 hills, 2H site=14H. Food just enough. But this city can be also
or primary a commercial city. Dye+gem+cottages can give a good output;
just grow will be slow.

No farms were considered,as just much later are possible and CERN must pay
a price for it.
So, IMHO the decision between A and C depends on the role CERN wants to
follow.

Best regards,

A, B & C on a map.

C sounds good. We can always build 9 from A later.

How is thought the defense of the settler, 3 tiles (6, 3, 2) at the founding tile can hide animals. Ana can't do it.

We can't found B and C together, because they too close.

I would go for B first.
When the settler reaches that tile and finds another seafood in the unknown territory, I would found on 7 from B.
The B location can pay for itself, needs no initial defense (big help!), probably needs no early culture and can build workers/settlers after some growth to help CERN.

Further I would move C on 3.
It's definately not the city we want to settle first, because jungle-bananas need IW+calendar and cows need AH, which we don't have when founding.

I don't like A too much.
(First of all: A needs early culture, grows slow, needs IW. This doesn't make it hot now.)
Maybe settling 2-3 from A and 8 or 8-8 of the gems could be wise?
I think we need Ana's next move(s) to find out how we want to settle the east. Depending on this we can decide how we grab the gems...

We have so many hills around, that it's not so easy to find a good (clear) cottage-city...

How is thought the defense of the settler, 3 tiles (6, 3, 2) at the founding tile can hide animals. Ana can't do it.

Good question. I haven't been paying attention to whether CERN has a MP right now. Does it? If not, then someone's going to have to reverse course immediately, or we should arrange for a warrior to be built too.

I tried to dotmap our known lands a bit.

Note, that especially Ana. could change things rather soon...

hybrid
Already proposed by Tinker and HUSch.
Strong city that produces well and has some commerce potential as well.
Problem is, that it needs early culture for the resource-tiles. Further gems and lots of jungle need IW and banana and dyes need calendar.
It would interesting to found a religion here, but that is quite a gamble... (might work as third city, when going for early thrid settler)

commerce
Is definately the best cottage-city we can found early on. 5 green riverside cottages (+1 shared with CERN) and a total of 12 grasland cottages possible. Production is also not bad: 5 green hills (but we might want to cottage the riverside grasland hill). Early growth is a problem because only jungle-bananas...
But a temporary farm and irrigated banana after IW should work fine...
Would be my choice for 3rd or 4th city.

moai
If there is another seafood, I would found it at the cape. If there is nothing more, 8 of the clams looks good.
Decent early production with green hills. Growth is also fine with clams. Does not need early protection and clams can fund the maintainace. Might not need early culture.
Later on it can build the moais and is good commerce/production city.
Could build granery first while growing with clams. Then 1 or 2 units (MP for city+CERN; or barracks?) until it can start on workers/settlers with pop3/pop4.
This is my first choice for 2nd city.

hybrid2
Decent hybrid city with cows and shared bananas for growth. A couple of hills give a solid production.
... Can be founded later on...

commerce2 ?
... with a big question mark as we don't know much about that area, but coastal, floods, 3 green hills it should be ok.
This location fits good with "hybrid" but we'll have to see the terrain first...

production
This should be a strong production city. Food from fish and pigs, lots of hills...

commerce3 ?
Looks like a no-brainer: Oasis, lots of floods and graslands for cottages, incense, some hills for production.
... a little too for a way for our first 3-4 cities...

filler ?
... need to know more about the territory first...


A different setup would be to move "commerce" 2-2, "hybrid" 2-2 and found another cottage-city 8-8 of "commerce". I think I like that idea even a little better:crazyeye:

concerning settler protection:
In case we found in the west we don't need a protection.
If we want to go for a location in the SE Ana. can move 3-1-... So I don't think there is much of a problem...

I vote for topas to be our main city planner!

@Topas
how will you look in the west? With the settler, he needs 3 turns to Lands End, then he settles or if he sees nothing, he needs another turn to go at tile (clam 8) to settle there.

HUSch
Maybe we have to sacrifice a turn to scout, but it could also work something like this:

T42
- settler finished
- CERN builds warrior (1 turn)
- settler moves 1-4
T43
- warrior finished
- settler 1 -> settler on clams-8 -> sees 4 tiles to the west (clams-7, clams-7-7, clams-7-6, clams-6-6 (and clams-4-1 but this is mainly uninteresting))
- warrior 1-4/4-4 if workers build road on rice or the grasland-hill before (Eupalinos?)
T44
- warrior 7/4 -> can see 2 more tiles (7 of cape-tile and 7-8 of cape-tile)
-> if we see 2nd seafood somewhere settler moves on cape-tile, else we have to decide during our turn if we want to sacrifice a turn into scouting/moving on the cape-tile.

(Even without a 2nd seafood we might want to consider the cape-tile because of less overlap with CERN and other following cities...)

Without a second boni, it is then neccessary to get cult Expansion first, also build a monument or research religion.
btw
I 've nothing against a lost turn for better situation/info about it.

Where should the next city found.
Please vote

I have to take a look into the game in the next days, but I think somewhere around the 2nd rice should be best.

Earlier in the thread there was a map showing a city in the center of the 2nd rice, gems, banana, 2nd dye. That one would be good but difficult to develop quickly.

How about the one labeled commerce, next to the bananas? That one will be very easy to develop and can grow population. We could even farm one or two river tiles to grow it faster and then replace farms with cottages.

I think it's important to get a commerce city going next. I'm usually not a fan of re-improving tiles, but I suppose we don't have much choice in this case. At least until Calendar we'll need to work a couple of farms.

I'm in favor of settling the site labeled Commerce next: CERN 6 6 6 9

I woudl go for a commerce city so i would vote for commerce 1, but ¿have you thougth on moving it 2 one tile?, that way we would have access to gems, wich is happyness resource and lots of commerce.

I think we should work that tile as soon as posible.

Well, we'd lose 1 riverside, 3 grasslands, and 1 grassy hill, but gain Gems, 3 riverside grasslands, and 1 mountain.

That seems better, unless I'm missing something :confused:

You should consider further cities, when looking for the city-site.

Moving the city 1 tile southwards makes it significantly harder to place reasonable cities around in my opinion.

... have to look into the game in the next days to make my own proposal.

I prefer to priorice explosive cityes than future cityes, Civ is an inertial game, that means teh faster you do something in the begginging the faster you are abel to do things in the future.

I would sacrifice future cityes for having explosive cityes now withouth doubt.

Interesting observation.

I prefer to priorice explosive cityes than future cityes, Civ is an inertial game, that means teh faster you do something in the begginging the faster you are abel to do things in the future.

I would sacrifice future cityes for having explosive cityes now withouth doubt.

I agree, I just hope the cities won't really explode, would give quite a mess. :lol:

We need a next city location.
Please ideas

How about gems-8?

- In the beginning we build a cheap granery with mine. that Leo can build now.
As soon as we have founded we build 1 or 2 farms on grasland to grow the city. Then we can work some (riversite)-cottages (and the gems after IW).
- With a granery growth will be ok, but we need not whip the city anyway.
- Probably no need for early culture.
- some chops and some hills should help with production

After that we might want to settle ivory+cows...

Further we can settle another good cottage-city 9 of the northern banana.

Gems-8 is good with me. It should be the commerce city.

Let's have a picture please.

I think, I would found the city at gems 2.

At the beginning we have rice an a mine to get this city run (granary, monument). And then we have the choice between building units or get a nice commerce-city.

Here is a picture for gems 8

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=201744&stc=1&d=1233136084

I think, I would found the city at gems 2.

At the beginning we have rice an a mine to get this city run (granary, monument). And then we have the choice between building units or get a nice commerce-city.

That's true. Gems-2 would be a good spot, too. Maybe even better...
We loose river-bonus (health, easier TR, levee), but it would be quite strong from the start and fit with other city-sites.

I made a rough dot-map with the gems-2-position, because I think it's wrong to forget about future cities.
Another city with cows+ivory is possible and should be settled rather soon with hunting and AH, but has some overlap with other cities.

(It's right, that cities should be explosive from the bat, but, if we totally loose great tiles that way, we will be behind in the middle ages or later, when the game will be decided.)

Topas
What is with the ivory, you don't want it? And I would also prefer coastal cities if possible.

So the next city 'll be at gems!

Wow, the northeast is a very nice area to place some cities. What about founding the next city at the pig/fish and create a second settler-production-city to colonize the whole surrounding area?

Cern is not really good in building settlers (especially without wood) and a city at the gems could not really help Cern.

I don't like Gems-2 at all. That's a production city, not a commerce city. The gems resource isn't leveraged there. Also, 3 tiles are mountains.

I still think our long term interests are better served by starting a commerce city at Gems-8. Only 1 tile is mountainous, and we utilize 8 or 9 riverside tiles - maximizing our financial trait. It is crucial we not forget that!

I will try to post a dot map as well... (please be patient :))

I also prefer coastal cities, but if we found gems-2 and want to found another coastal commerce-city (i.e. banana-9), we would waste some great riversite-graslands.
(With the dotmap above we get a huge cottage-city in the east of CERN, but it's not coastal, has no fresh water and has 1 coastal tile...)

(If we found on gems-8, the city will be slower in the beginning, but we could found a coastal comemrce-city (banana-9) and another mediocre coastal city 2-1 of the 2nd rice. But we would have much more overlap...)

ivory+cows
I still want to found it rather soon, but there are several positions possible, that look good. There is no clear position for it, so I just left it out of the dotmap.
Probably it should be our fourth city, but we'll have to decide on research (and position) first.


The dotmap is just what I would do when founding gems-2.
A rough draft with founding gems-8 is somewhere above as well...

Right now I lean a little more towards gems-2.
(... but that has nothing to say, because I haven't read much more discussions/opinions on future city-placment, that could help me in the decision...)

Wow, the northeast is a very nice area to place some cities. What about founding the next city at the pig/fish and create a second settler-production-city to colonize the whole surrounding area?

Cern is not really good in building settlers (especially without wood) and a city at the gems could not really help Cern.

The NE is definately worth settling fast.

I agree, that pigs+fish could really help producing settlers, but I fear it's too far away for 3rd city.
We'll have quite some barbs inbetween our cities rather fast and need some extra defense in CERN and the new city.

x-post w/ Topas..


Okay, here's my dotmap.

City A: Great Commerce, modest production
City B: coastal, modest production (will grab Ivory w/ culture)
City C: coastal, good production (naval base)
City D: GP farm, great commerce (super-spy city)

Yeah, we've got some settlement challenges to work out, that's for certain :lol:

And I'm certainly still open to persuasion on all positions.

I would go for A, that position is a great commerce city, you dont need any farm or anything just cotagges like crazy and maybe a granary.

Perhaps we should go at the coast (in the NE) to see after possible water-res befors we decide the locations there.

Peter
you don't want the ivory like Topas

I don't see gaining the Ivory better than losing a riverside grassland. The ivory is certainly nice to have before cottages are towns, but once we have the town + beneficial civics + levee + commerce modifiers, working a riverside grassland town will be much better than a plains ivory.

That doesn't mean another city could not use the ivory - I just don't see it as part of a commerce city. :)

ivory gives :) and war elephant, so we need it, I think.

Ahh - I'm not saying we can't use it. I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be utilized within a city's big fat cross. In other words, I'm fine with the Ivory being achieved through culture, rather than settlement.

Does that make sense?

Yes, but culture will take a long time to grow to a 2nd expansion. ;)

However, I'd probably take the ivory with another city further east.

That second expansion comes with 100 culture points, which I think we could get in a reasonable amount of time. Our commerce city will get a library, religion, monastery = 5 cpt. Yes, it takes time to build the buildings, but I really don't think there's a pressing need to get the ivory so quickly.


Upon further reflection, I won't protest if the team decides to settle Gems-2. But my preference is still for Gems-8. I don't see the logic to settling a coastal site in the NE just now - to me it seems more important to grow our commerce (and cottages) to leverage our Financial trait. The sooner we do that, the sooner we can start to make up for the better starts the other teams seem to have gotten.

Coastal is commerce too and ivory is good becuse + 1 luck in few turns, precise after hunting and build a camp, at gems we need iron first. Your idea of tiem we need ivory is at 0 AD or later.

In few turns we get a settler in Peri.
Where should the new city found?

In the game we 've places in the north of Gottingen or in the south near the frontier to Cav.
I would prefer the city in the north, it is nearer and we need not so many other units to help.
The red circle shows the tiles in the pictures below.


http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/6687/northcity.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=northcity.jpg)


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2677/southcity.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=southcity.jpg)