Here is how:

The person who is going to starts the buissness PM's the Item Keeper (trader/warrior) and tells him what items he/she is going to sell. The Item Keeper then PM's the shop starter and says how much its going to cost (or time it's gonna take) to get one of the items in their stock(example longer down). Then the shop owner posts his buget in a buissnes part of the bank. There the tax can be collected each turn.

Ex:
to get this many (item here), it costs (cost here)
Or
to grow this many (product here), it takes (time here)
or
to make this many (product/item here), it takes (time here)

thanx to trader/warrior for the solution ;)

Start up cost:
First business: Free
Second and on: 100g plus other fees
200g additional for Manufacturing
100g additional for Resale
50g additional for Services (Not selling or making anything.)

There was some talk on how much it costs to start a business, could that be recapped here?
Thanks!

Startup costs have not been finalized yet. The rules are still being developed.

Well, how can I cook the books if I don't know how much things cost ;) ;) ;)

I'll just put this double-entry abacus away for now.....

Danke Q Boondoggle
Boondoggle & Pork, Lobbyists
Greasing the Wheels of Democracy Since 4000BC...or a tad earler

the item part is final, but how much it costs isn't.

would there be a fee to start a bussiness. this could lead to people buying stocks. i, and 3 others would pool together 100gold to open the bussiness and a 5th person would run it. if it did badly, we would lose and if it thrived, we would get an extra 5gpt

startup prices are now set, but are being boggled around now.

The current rule design proposal has Private business, private companies, public companies and corporations.

i would prefer reading some how-tos. or maybe have a govnermental position to help people build startups.

Apro, Poe & Nuffin offer business consultation services for a nominal fee.

i think we should also be more expensie for a second buisiness so we dont get monopolies

it is. it costs atleast 150g for a second business and more.

don't forget to register on the FSE. Can some1 post the FINAL business fee's. Thx

is the 1st business free?

The rules are being developed right now. Check the RPG thread to see what the current revision is.

Yes, the current revision has one business free for each player.

maybe the discussion should be spawned into a seperate one out of that monster thread? i stopped reading it long ago ;-)

very informative post dis
i dont think the first buisiness should be free otherwise we will end up with loads of tiny little shops running round the place

maybe at 1/4 the cost of a regular business?

Lots of tiny shops is just fine. Some will succeed, others won't. Unsuccessful businesses will fade away. It's better to be inclusive here than exclusive. The laws of commerce will prevail, have faith.

So the first shop is free of founding-cost (as of now).

Now is there a maintenance cost which is not calculated by the earnings of the shop, like a 10gpt turn-tax per shop or something for the first shop? Or is it just the tax calculated from the money i earn? (i think small is 4 of 10?!?).

IMHO, having no startupcost for the first business is bad. It should be low, though, but should be there (think of it as renting a house or buying something for the shop). It should nevertheless be less than 50gold for the first one. If we make it free, someone could open unlimited numbers of shops one after each other and then sell them, for example. The other way he would have to make more than 50gold to win money with it.

But i would not like a turnly fee for first private businesses. This will prevent very small businesses from existing. All fees for first and only businesses should be income based. Like if i earn nothing, i pay nothing.

On the other side:
Following kinds of shops should be charged for ALL shops:
1) second shops (also the first shop will be charged on founding of the second)
2) joint ventures or bigger companies
3) shops being run or founded by groups or more than one individual citizens or being financed by such.

example:
* shaitan opens shop A. This is his first shop, so he pays 50 gold one time fee.
shaitan will not earn money, so he does not pay tax for that shop.
* shaitan now opens shop B in addition to shop A. He again has to pay 50 gold.
As he now has 2 shops, he will have to pay a turnly fee for BOTH shops+the income tax.
* shaitan now sells shop A for 30 gold.
He now only has 1 shop left, so he does not pay a turnly fee any more. He just pays his normal income tax.
* shaitan now forms a joint venture with eyrei for shop B
at that moment, it is no private business any more. shop B will have to pay turnly fees (same when shop B grows too big or other things apply like corporation etc.).
* shaitan now founds shop C.
he has to pay 50 gold for the founding, but he also has to pay a turnly fee for shop C, as he also is part of the joinc venture shop B, and as such shop C is not his "first shop".
* shaitan leaves shop B joint venture
so he now does not have to pay turnly fees for shop C any more.


did i get it right/is my proposal ok?

i think this would enable all citizens to have a shop, but would make them think twice about joining or second shoups.
the fees for having a 3rd shop should be DRASTIC!

Ouch. You just gave me a headache, dis.

A person cannot open more than one shop for free. That is a one time thing, one per player. It allows each person the option to get in on the business side of the game, even when they don't have business savvy, without risk of loss. This is a game. Let the people play.

Relatively high cost of other business startups plus a relatively low loan availability will prevent a single person or small group from bankrolling businesses to form a mega corp.

There are no mandatory per turn fees. That would drive non-profit organizations out of business. Fees come from earnings. For product, you keep 50%. For services you keep 75%. If you are both the manufacturer and retailer for a product you keep 75%.

Keep in mind that this is not a 50% tax bracket on regular business. It represents the entire cost of keeping the business going including staff, materials, buildings, fees and taxes.

what about groups?
i think they should not even have their first shop free.

what about cooperations?
i think all businesses run by more than one person should not be free, even if its the first shop. anyways, a member of a corporation could hold a side business as his private "first shop"
also, if businesses join or are bought or change away from a truely private status, they should start paying turnly fees.

turnly fees?
YES! for all non(!) first-shops, there should be a such fee. this brings dead businesses out of the threadlist faster. this also forces businesses to gain a positive account to prevent them going bancrupt when they dont get income for some time.


so now i go into an example:
if i would reopen my pub, it will cost me nothing, as it will be my first business. right?
where do i send the opening of it to?
now i get income from people. i earn 10 gold. so 7.5=8 gold i can keep, and 5 gold go of. if i earn nothing, i dont pay anything (except when i hire people on a turnly payment)?
Where do i send my books in which schedule and what format?
Is payment of employees subtracted from the netto or brutto income?

example for the last question:
i earn 10 gold. i have to pay 5 gold for a waiter.
do i have to pay him first=10-5=5 and then the tax=5/4=1gtax,4gprofit?
or do i pay him after tax=10/4=2goldtax,8-5=3goldprofit?

who will keep track of who already had his "first shop" bonus?

The Price Manager keeps track of who has used their "free business" card.

If people want to use their free startup to form a public or private company then they can.

Starting up your bar:
Build a price list of all items that the business will sell.
Send this list, with a brief description of the business to the Price Manager.
The Price Manager will reply and tell you what your total startup costs will be (zero in this case). If your price list is seriously out of whack, the Price Manager will tell you what should be changed.
Secure your startup funds. If you need a loan, go to the Bank. As you don't have startup funds you don't have to worry about this.
When your funds are secured, post a transaction at the Bank paying your startup fees. Once again, your startup fees are zero. State that in your transaction.
The Price Manager will respond in the Bank thread with your certification to start up the business.
Post in the RPG Index & Registry thread with a link to your business, a one line description of your business and a link to the approving post from the Price Manager.
For the first businesses without startup costs, if the price list is okay the Price Manager could simply reply directly in the Bank thread and PM you the link to save you some running around.

Groups are non-profit organizations. If they are selling something, they have to start a company or corporation.

Turn fees can't work in our setup. A well run and successful business that sells small, cheap things is at a serious disadvantage against a business that sells expensive things. If somebody wants to roleplay a mom & pop store they should be able to do so.

Your sales and staff questions:
A bar is a resale business. The bar purchases items to sell to its customers. You keep 50% of what you sell. This assumes payment of all of your business expenses (including the original purchase of the booze you are selling). If you want to hire additional staff, that comes out of your 50% take.

isnt a bar a kind of service firm?
a bar doesnt really sell "things" you can have.

and what if we import things ourselves with which we produce the drinks?

Originally posted by disorganizer
isnt a bar a kind of service firm?
a bar doesnt really sell "things" you can have.

and what if we import things ourselves with which we produce the drinks?
Every sales organization is also providing a service. The defining item is concrete items versus non-item transactions. A bar purchases alcohol and food items to resell them to their customers. An alcohol referal service would not have alcohol to sell but would be able to consult with people to recommend a good beer.

If your location purchases its own supplies it would get the 3/4 profit that a manufacturer/sales business gets.

For example, if you open a microbrewery (manufacturer/resale) you would make your own product and sell it. For every 100 gold in sales you would keep 75g.

Ah! I think i make a pub and microbrewery! Now who is the guy i have to mail my business to?

We'll know after the elections.

So i cant start a business because i dont know who to send the info to?!? Strange ;-)
So where do all those new businesses come from?

There will be a reconning for businesses that were started before the rules were finalized. No new businesses have been registered since the RPG builders called a halt to new business.

A, P & N has tendered an offer to help pre-existing businesses conform to the rules on a pro bono basis. Post in the A, P & N thread if you would like them to help with your pre-existing business setup.

They will also help new businesses started after the rules are finalized, for a small fee.

post in my thread if you have a buisinees we need to have them all registered

This is not a bad idea, but what about publicly listed companies???

@AJ - Do you mean the "official" businesses?

VHS's stock market

That's a fine idea. The rules so far have only the startup costs for corporations. That aspect will need fleshing out and lots of feedback before it's usable.

As this system is not being used, this thread is being archived. Discussion on the demogame rules should be directed to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30868).