RE-EDIT: Here is a link to the spreadsheet plan from T55 until t91 (start of the war-ish), after then everything became quite...fluid. It took alot of effort to get everything down. - Krill

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnWpYNlmVP2scDRIc29GczF2VHpwbWtrWk05Vnk4R lE&hl=en

Worker moves for the new SE cities

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/NewEGCDP.jpg

First spoiler contains too large screenshots of the CDP for workers and cities; sorry it isn't written down in the fourm, but I couldn't find a way to make it easily readable.

EDIT: 05/02/09: I'd appreciate it if we kept this thread for checking through the plan for errors introduced during the writeup, and keep the wargaming thread for the microstrategy.

Simulation save for turn 78 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208029&stc=1&d=1237830013)



World Map, with dotmap

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/c651c77f.jpg

Cities

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/ace72179.png

Workers (note: very wide)

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/204d195f.png

-

Below is the CDP from t44 to t59 that got scrapped because of Cav researching meditation to early.

W=worker. W1=General_W. W2=Remake20, W3=Viva_Chingon, W4=AutomatedTeller, W5=Kylearean.

Simulation save is here, correct for the start of turn 46 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200458&stc=1&d=1232155476)

Turn 44: W1 move SE+road (either needs warrior to guard or scout for barbs), W2 road (finished) W3 mine (finished), W4 chop (finished). Research Myst in 4, 100% science, -2gpt, +18bpt, 11g in bank

Turn 45: W1 road (finished), W2 move 6 (E)+road, W3 move NN (88), W4 move W

Turn 46: IS finishes Settler, build granary, work 2*plains hill mines+wheat, CK finishes W5, build granary working copper+wheat. W1 moves 74 (to tile 23 of IS), cottage, W2 roads (finished), W3 chops, W4 chops, W5 moves 9 (NE), settler moves 3332, warrior guarding W1 moves to protect it.

Turn 47: Build C3, work grassforest build X (suggest granary). W1 cottage, W2 moves 33 (SESE) W3 chops, W4 chops, W5 chops. EOT myst complete, 1g in bank. Research meditation

Turn 48: W1 irrigate, W2 mine, W3 chop (finished), W4 chop (finished), W5 chop. IS works fish, wheat, plains hill mine. 0% science, +14gpt

Turn 49: IS completes granary (12/26 food), work fish, wheat, cottage build axe. W1 cottage (finished), W2 mine, W3 mines, W4 moves 3 (SE) W5 chops (finished). Research@100% med in 5, -4gpt, +20bpt, 17g in bank.

Turn 50: CK completes granary (13/24 food), work wheat, grass forest, build axe. W1 move E, cottage, W2 mine, irrigate, W3 mine, W4 road, W5 irrigate.

Turn 51: IS size 4, work wheat, fish, cottage, mined plains hill. W1 cottage W2 mine (finished), W3 mines, W4 roads (finished) W5 irrigates.

Turn 52: W1 cottage (finished) W2 move W, W3 mine (finished) W4 move S, cottage (finished), W5 irrigate. Warrior defending C3 moves 87 towards capital. IS works fish. wheat, cottage, grass mine. C3 work grass cottage. EOT meditation finished@80%, research PH.

Turn 53: IS size 5, work wheat, fish, 2*plainshill mine, 1 grass cottage. CK size 3, work wheat, grass forest, grass hill mine W1 move E, pasture cows, W2 chop, W3 move 14, W4 move to river ivory, W5 irrigate . Warrior move into capital. research PH@80%, +22bpt

Turn 54: IS finishes axe1, build worker. Research PH@90%, +26bpt. W1 pasture cows, W2 chop, W3 chop, W4 road, W5 irrigate (finished). CK size 3, work irrigated wheat, irrigated grass, grass mine. CK work grass farm, wheat, grass hill mine. Fortify Hudson in IS, move Axe1 out to C3.

Turn 55: W1 pasture, W2 chop, W3 chop, W4 road (finished), W5 move NW. CK work grass hill mine, wheat, copper. research@80%, +24bpt EOT Priesthood researched, save gold. IS work wheat, fish, 2*plains mine, grass cottage.

Turn 56: CK axe2 finished start oracle, work wheat, copper, grass hill mine, plains hill forest. W1 pasture, W2 move NE, W3 chop (finished), W4 camp, W5 chop. C3 work cow. IS work wheat, fish, cottage, 2*plains hill.

Turn 57: W1 move 23 camp ivory, W2 chop, W3 Irrigate, W4 camp, W5 chop. C3 size 2, work cottage+cow

Turn 58: IS finish W6, build axe W1 move SW, W2 chop, W3 irrigate, W4 camp, W5 chop (finished), W6 move 36 mine. CK work wheat, plains hill forest, copper, grasshill mine.

Turn 59: W1 move to worker 6 mine, W2 chop (finished), W3 irigate, W4 chop, W5 road, W6 mine EOT Oracle finished

All this changed when Cav founded Buddhism on turn 47. We accelerated our plan to research meditation on t52, priesthood t54, and finish Oracle t55. The next phase of our economic plan has not been nailed down until we either complete the oracle or another team does.

Overview of t55-71

Aims for the next 10 turns are to get a granary and forge in IS, growing it to size 6, preparing it to run an engineer to get a GE. After the forge is built we are going to build an axe and a settler, for city 5 (the axe will defend Jade Dew, and the axe from there can shuffle forward to defend city 5). Copper Kettle is going to build two axes, one for Jade Dew and then to explore with, and the other to defend itself, allowing the warrior to fogbust for the worker roading towards the sheep, then build a settler to go build a city by the sheep and fish. After the settler CK is going to build a forge to grow to size 7. Jade Dew is just going to grow while building a granary, working cottages, and getting one axe with a chop for a little more security and to allow us to explore a little more. Barentz is currently exploring the south, and around the horse, to discern future city sites and contact other teams. We have turned research back on after saving gold for 8 turns and finish IW sometime around turn 71.

Is the plan to just edit the first post? If so (and maybe even if not), it would be useful to have a link to the most current sim.

@Krill W4 isn't where you think he is right now. Next turn he moves W not E.

Actually...the basis of what I wrote came from a very old plan because I can't be arsed to rewrite what everything should be doing each turn (would be easier with Excel but I don't have it and loathe it), so there are possibly a few mistake in there because they come from the old version, like the one you mentionned. It would be usefull if you could check it over in a sim so I can correct.

way ahead of you ;)

@Memphus - I was just running through the sim myself, and I agree that something's up with W4's orders but I think on Turn 45 he moves NE (9) and chops. Then on TUrn 49 he moves 22, which allows him to move S and road on turn 50 (the cows)

But you are right that there is also a forest to his W

Heh you guys are too fast for me :)

W4 should move west and chop the grass forest, then move to the grass hill and road, then cottage along with W1 (and then they become interchangeable). I'll post an updated sim tomorrow, to tired to do it right now, and the current one is good enough until turn 59, as it were

Sounds good - also W1's actions on T46 and T47 - one says cottage the other says irrigate.

Hope you're taking this as just finishing touches and not nitpicks :)

It's always good to check over plans, it's usually the way that I find a way to improve it actually. :)

The mistake that you posted about comes from the fact that I rewrote the original t61 oracle plan, which had W1 farming instead of a cottaging. The New and Improved(TM) t59 plan has W1 cottaging.

well look with all of our observations, we have taken the oracle from T65 originally down to T59. In civ that is the difference between the MTDG and just competing.

however as long as we have this plan up we can all work to improve it.
krill one thing can you post whenever you edit that "plan" so we know :D thanks!

Noticed a mistake in the plan, it has been corrected. Meditation should be finished EoT t52.

Our minds, be they great or mediocre, think alike, eh, Memphus ;)

Okay I ran through it once and here are my notes. I think that it helps that a) I'm not as good a player as the 2 of you and b) haven't really ran through a sim in this game, so I'm a fresh set of eyes.

Some of these are questions / clarifications, some are just removing duplications and such.

All in all it was a great plan, and all the times I didn't get the Oracle right it was because I didn't read the whole thing :)

Starting in turn order:
Turn 47 - W1 cottages, not irrigates
T52 - you already corrected that Med is in EOT here.
T53 - IS does not build worker - that is correctly listed as starting in T54
T53 - PH@80% moves here from T54, and it's +22 bpt.
T54 - There is a duplicate line for CK's tile assigments - just remove the 1st one. It should work grass farm, wheat and grass hill mine. Also while it's fairly obvious, I'd add a note to fortify the warrior (that came from C3) and move the axe to C3 (or wherever)
T55 - Science to 100% 3 in the bank, listed as PH in 1 with -4 gpt but it works out. EOT Priesthood in, science to 0% to save gold
T57 - W3s chop is already finished - he irrigates. IS swaps back to wheat, fish, cottage and 2 plains hills.
T58 - W6s job is not listed but it looks like you intended a move of 3-6-mine?

Thanks for those correctsion, they've been editted in above, but you made one mistake; on t54 we need to finish the axe in CK with 10 overflow, so we have to work the copper, grass hill and wheat, for a total of (6+3+2+1=12 hammers, with the axe at 33/35 hammers). If we could work the farm, we wouldn't have to work the coastal tile in IS.

I have gotten to about T55 when I just can't keep track of things anymore. It would be helpful to get an up-to-date Sim including the Gold and Horses and everything!

T48 - W1 still shows as irrigating.

T49 - +22 bpt...note below.

T52 - W1 has not finished cottage yet.
T52 - W4 just started the cottage...it is not finished and C3 can not work it.
T52 * I need 100% research needed to finish MED...80% would take 2 more turns.

T53 - W1 finishes cottage this turn...can't move to start pasture yet.
T53 - W4 finished cottage this turn...can't move to start to ivory yet.

T54 - W1 starts moving to cows.
T54 - W4 still working on cottage.

T55 - W1 starts on pasture.

I found it difficult not to miss something in the later turns...I was probably just trying to hurry through it. I worked though a couple times though and also got the +22bpt that regoarrarr spoke of the first time through -- but I didn't the second time and don't *think* I did anything differently.

All in all though, I think I'm missing something or the CDP possibly still has some kinks in it. I think the below format would make it easier to read and also to edit later on when plans change.

Turn ##:

City Orders
Worker Orders
Research Orders
Other


Also, when we are done with the plan can you save the post before you replace it with the new plan...for historical purposes. Now that we're all posting in here we can't just add new posts in sequential order...

Thanks, Krill!

On T54 I thought that I was working the farm in CK and managed to still get the Oracle in time.

I will try to get a spreadsheet up and running that encapsulates the plan in a better format.

On your latest save, I keep getting a vermin event on T52. I'm not WB-savvy enough to figure out how to avoid it...

What I was trying to investigate is that I think we can gain a bit (not much but some) by switching back to higher food tiles in CK and IS on the turn before their granaries complete.

For example instead of
Turn 49: IS completes granary (12/26 food), work fish, wheat, cottage build axe.

on T48, we swap IS from the plains hill it was working to the cottage. Granary still completes on T48 and I think that would gain us enough commerce to avoid having to work the coast tile (1/0/3) to get enough beakers for PH (though I don't see that in the sim anymore so maybe you got that taken care of anyways). Still, I think it would net us out a few f/h/b by allowing growth a turn earlier.

Then instead of
Turn 50: CK completes granary (13/24 food), work wheat, grass forest, build axe.

we swap from the copper to the grass forest in CK on Turn 49. Granary still completes on turn 50 but we grow to size 3 (and 4) one turn earlier in CK.

I wanted to run through the sim to see what we might have to adjust in terms of MP and timing of axes and such but couldn't get past the vermin event.

Thoughts?

To remove the effects of the vermin events and such from the game, I just go back a turn using the autsave (I autosave every turn of a game for this reason) and edit the amount of gold required to circumvent the event into the city, and pay off the event when it hits.

On T48 we don't have a cottage in the capital to work, that isn't finished until t49.

If we try to get CK growing 1 turn faster we either need the axe 1 turn sooner, or ivory hooked up. Ivory could be hoked up in time by sending W1 and W1 onto the ivory and camping immediately after the second cottage and delaying the pasture on the cow, so that is a possibility. Hwever, I think it affects the oracle by putting it back 1 turn.

We get 80 hammers from 4 forest chops (one is put into the axe and overflowed into the oracle, then we have one every turn after that, t55, t56, t57, t58). So we need 70 hammers from production, and we make 15 hpt on t56, t57, t58, t59 for 60 hammers, and we can get an additional 10 hammers from overflowing from the axe on t55, which is @ 33/35 and working the copper, grass hill, city tile and wheat makes 12 hammers for a 4 turn oracle build. So I think we need to investigate growing 1 turn earlier...

Thanks for the tip on the gold to avoid events and such.

I'll try and do some sims on growing CK faster to see what we get there.

And are you thinking that we could possibly get the oracle on T58?

The quickest we can build the oracle is in 4 turns, 15 hammers per turn*4 = 60, plus 80 from chops, requiring 10 hammers from somewhere else. At size 5 we could possibly do it without any overflow, working an extra plains hill forest, but we can't get to size 5 by start of turn 56 I think, short of drastically changing the worker plan (might be possible if we get two grass farms up and running asap and then just burn worker turns getting the chops done asap). So 4 turns to build the oracle is the fastest we can do it, I think. Even 1 extra chop would only give us 1 extra turn, and 5 of the 10 overflow hammers.

The other way to speed up the completion date is to research faster. So far we have speed up the research on ph to EOT 55. I doubt we can get that done any faster without working coastal tiles in IS and completely screwing up growth and the axe build for the eastern cities.

EDIT on (28/01/09): Well I was wrong...fastest we can buidl the oracle is in 1 turn, or rather, the faster we could build the oracle is hopefully in 1 turn. And if someone beats us to it now, then we really screwed up by researching hunting, and possibly be settling city 3 so soon...

I believe the plan is VERY SOLID as written, Oracle at T59 should be fine. If some beats us to it, they deserve it.

First post has been updated with screenshots of the spreadsheet.

Thanks Krill but can you verify the Turn 58 move orders for Kylearean and New Worker and the Turn 71 move orders for General_W and Viva.

I don't know which specific tiles Kylearean and NewWorker are standing on; on t58 the need to move to the grasshill east of CK and mine, if the orders say otherwise that's because I got the tile they were standing on wrong.

The rest I'll check now.

OK, thanks for catching the 633 mistake, it should be 333 and I've corrected it. The Kylearean/Newworker thing, I'll change if someone shows me a screenshot with each one named, showinfg what tile they each are standing on.

I think their orders just got transposed. Kyle goes 99mine and Newb is 96mine. Thanks for posting those, very instructive I've never bothered with canceling orders but its surprising how much those little saves can add up to.

Cancelling orders take your game up a serious level. the secret is to make use of "alt-S" so you know how far the worker has done what on what tile :D

@Krill we could get the axe out 1 turn sooner in CK...we need 10 :hammers: it currently produces 9 :hammers:

@Krill before I forget.

1. remake20 is actually ronnie1 in the game
2. AT & G_W are reversed

Is General_W the one pasturing the cow then?

yup.........

For this turn:

AT moves 23 onto the ivory, (the worker that just pastured the cows)
General W moves 3 and roads/cancel, (the worker that just irrigated the capital, starts turn 1 of the capital)
1889 and Kylearan finish mining, (both workers that have been mining CK)
Viva finishes mining, (worker 47 of IS)
Ronnie moves 2 and irrigates. (Worker that is roading to Sheep)


IS works grass hill mine, two plains mines, wheat and fish
CK works wheat, copper, both grass hill mines
JD works teh cow and cottage (which is now a hamlet)

:salute: successfully performed.

OK, the spreadsheets have been updated and corrected, and they are uploaded to this thread into the first post. They are also shared to the team email address. They can't be altered by anyone accept me, but you can make a copy and alter that one using google docs (gotta say the first time I've used it is for this and I love it...definately need to try). Please check through it for errors; Memphus spotted one to do with this turn that I missed and I had to sort it out on very short notice. Ideally we should have everything double checked beforehand, so we don't hold the save up, except when absolutely necessary.

we going to update the sim then i can run through it ;)

What do you think I'm doing now?

eating food ;)

OK, reoptimised it...CK goes past t76 now, but that's because I figured away to get it to finish the forge the turn it grows to size 7 without delaying the forge, so it gains a few more hammers this way, and a little gold. Uploading now. (A side effect is that we don't have to build an axe to grow to size 7).

Oh, and regoararr...I was doing this while you were viewing the spreadsheet, sorry for that.

OK, this plan is about to get updated due to that second barb showing up, the team saying they want to explore more, and for a little more safety.

The cost will be delaying city 5 until t76, and 1 forest chop in JD for an axe (OK, don't . .. .. .. .. ., you guys wanted the extra scouts).

For this turn, the only changes are in JD.

JD works cow, ele, cottage, build axes.

OK, I could really do with having this checked over asap, as it invovles changes that happen this turn. It's iploaded to the first post, and saved in the google docs.

here is the simulation for the start of this turn.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204779&d=1235349024

next turn IS need a shake up we don't have enough :hammers: to finish the forge. we need to work the newly completed mine.

Yeah, I noted that, just didn't want to update the plan until after the turn was played and I had gotten some sleep...it'll be altered in a moment...

EDIT: Done, and so is the spreadsheet.

Can we get an up to date do map on the first post of this as well?

I was going to do that this evening (and update the sim). Was supposed to do that this after noon but other things got in the way...like sleep :)

New CDP time...I'm currently updating the google docs spreadsheet, but it's taking some time, and I've not even started the workers yet (they'll hopefully be finished in the next 2 hours and uploaded later). However, below is a preview of the insane building scheduale we have, along with a cool fact hidden amongst the colours, if anyone can figure it out, you get a cookie :)

Simulation save for next turn (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205778&stc=1&d=1236183181)

[http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/2ccddefd.png

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/c7d4eae1.png

(Yes, if we find iron very close, I'll redo the whole thing, but I wanted something down to start from instead of starting from scratch).

Hmmmm, haven't spotted anything cool yet, but shouldn't FC,t89 be Green?

Yes, it should, thanks for the catch :)

EDIT: Correction made and uploaded, along with some other mistakes.

OK, Workers jobs are uploaded. The sim will be uploaded end of next turn, with iron added.

Simulation uploaded for start of turn 71. Techs should be accuracte for the other teams, as far as we can tell, but because of alphabet, I may have to just stop calculating beakers and do it by hand (or stop simming).

How does our discovery of iron near sheep site affect things?

Should give us collosus faster - another nice thing is that city becomes a really good naval base :)

It was good before; now it's just insane. It was capable of 26hpt with a forge, now it's capable of 3hpt at size 7. For comparison, IS is capable of 31 hpt...at size 10.

Collosus is now buildable by eot t99, that's what I'm been simming out the for past 2 hours, and ironing out an issue with IS (we have to move to a farm from a grass hill to get IW this turn, and the cascade effect is that the trireme gets built 1 turn later, but IS grows to size 8 one turn sooner), Just updating google docs atm then will upload here, should take 30 minutes max now.

Ok, new updated CDP up, please check for mistakes. I did sim to see what would happen if we got the iron hooked up as first, second or third tile, third tile seems to be the best because it allows the granary to be built with the food box half full at size 2; if it's the first tile, then FC sits at size 1 for ages and doesn't grow, if it's tile 2 then the forest isn't chopped in time and growth is delayed to size 3, and onwards, and overall hammers are lost, and tile 3 pushes forward the Collosus to t99 without slowing growth to the extent that getting the lighthouse on line 2 turns sooner gives us back all of hte lost food and more commerce.

In CK...if we change from a farm to a GH mine...the forge and the growth to size 6 happen the same turn.

EDIT: Does that kind of change have to take place before we "end turn", I assume with sequential play it would have to.

I don't understand what you mean about size 6; that would mean we would get the forge in 4 turns?

The forge should finish the same turn that CK grows to size 7; it should take 4 turns to grow to size 6 (it's delayed 1 turn because we don't have the happiness until turn 75 to support size 6) and then take a further 4 turns to grow to size 7 (using a grass hill instead of the copper for the extra 2 food).

Any changes in work force have to be done before we end the turn, because that's when all of the calculations about food hammers and commerce take place. Luckily it means that the barbs don;t affect workforce lacements until the turn after they move, which is why I didn;t have to recalculate for the barb on the pasture.

for the most part i also update the cities to the next turn's requirments after i hit end turn.

:bump: for me so i can find it!

Posting for Memphus...it's the movement plan for the settlers/workers and axe for OO...

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417/KevinRill/ab126715.png

Woah where did the worker moves go? :eek:

Does IC need that mine from Memphus right away? why not have Memphus help out at JD for the cottage so it is done the turn it grows?

Well, if we go full steam ahead with the road we won't get any improvement, it's just a way to sink worker turns into IS without wasting them. Memphus needs to spend 1 turn mining that tile or that worker turn is lost forever as that is the only tile that can be improved on the way to the the start of the road.

The other workers can't do anything as well other than chop the ele that will be roaded, but they wont get that tile improved until one of them comes back from the desert hill, and that tile isn't needed until size 7, which is probably around turn 100, by which point we should have around 4 workers improving JD.

Arguably IS needs the most improvement, because after the gold is hooked and it can hit size 10, then all of the hills need to be worked, and we probably wont have time to get it improved without sinking those worker turns into it now. JD won't be too bad because the workers from OO can help out with it shortly after the gold is hooked, and it would only need 1 cottage at that time anyway.

OO is probably going to pump out a couple of workers for JD when it hits the happy cap (or size 4, because after that growth outstrips worker improvements). The balance here is that with gold and rep, it can grow up to size 10, 12 with forge, so we need to balance growth there with growth at JD, and we need an horrendous amount of workers to improve both at max growth (about 8?), so using OO as a source of workers is probably for the best when we aren't using it for mass scientists.

ok good stuff!

Thanks for the catch Memphus, the CDP picture is wrong. If you check the gmail accout, the spreadsheet there is correct though. Double checking there if anything seems wrong is the best thing you could do really.