The vaults of the evil gods are bound together. They are seven hells intertwined for one purpose, the forging of mortal souls into the infernal.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Mulcarn.jpg

The vault is dominated by a great mountain. The mountain is larger than any on Erebus, it is steep, rigid and punishing. The pinnacle is called the throne of hell (not an actual throne) and is the main gateway between the hells and Erebus (in the Fane of Lessers) and the portal through which souls are drawn into hell.

The mountain gets colder the higher you climb, and its base and rocky spires are hunted by the remaining servants of Mulcarn, frost giants, frostlings, aquilan and the nive.

Below a vast waste slopes away from the mountain. The rough tundra turns into a swamp. Each step through the swamp is a battle and the languid pools pull at anyone trying to get through them. Beneath the surface the largest source of petitioners in hell are trapped, this is the purgatory for the non-committal. They lay here for ages, consuming their own excrement and feeling nothing but slight pain and lethargy. In time they will overcome their passive nature and continue down into hell, but for now they are victims of their own inaction. Tar demons are pulled form these pools, gelatinous blobs with little humanity remaining.

There are creatures in the swamp, mites and bugs that leaving horrid burning blisters where they bite. They are not deadly, most that travel here are immortal, but the creatures steal the strength of those that pass through the swamp, inviting petitioners to lay beneath the black waters and succumb to mindless eternity that this realm offers.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Mammon.jpg

There is one great city in hell and it dominates this entire world of Mammon. The wastes of Mulcarn’s realm lead down into it and eventually the souls will be drawn to the city. As they get closer to the city they are transformed from ethereal spirits to a physical manifestation similar to their body in life.

As each petitioner enters the city he is given a coin, and the only way to progress through the city is to give seven coins to the Balors that guard the gateway at the cities heart. As such the entire plane is a trial to gather the seven coins needed to escape (little do they know that only worse lays beyond). Balors guard the city and maintain some illusion of order. This keeps wars from breaking out and makes for some safe areas where you can’t simply attack people to take their coins.

The point of this realm isn't to teach the petitioners how to effectively get the coins, but to have them spend years, decades and centuries wanting them. Getting them to the point where they are completely subject to their greed and unbound by any morale constraints in getting them. They will lie, they will steal, but mostly they will become ruled by their desire in a city full of lies, false hope, and degradation.

Some few never leave this stage of hell and intentionally become permanent citizens of this city. They occasionally rise into powerful positions, slave traders, dream merchants, cult leaders, etc. Mammon may take those that seem stuck and wipe their memories, forcing them to restart their entry into the city, but sometimes he leaves them be. Mammon is quite proud of his city, and one of the few (along with Esus) who views it as something more than just a part of a great machine.

Oddly the city features a long street full of various temples. There are hundreds of gods represented, and temples are reguarly switched from one religion to another. Most of the "religions" are unique to this city. Some worship various demons that may or may not be in the city, some worship petitioners pretending to be gods. All of the gods of Erebus are represented except one, though most in blatant parody of the real religion. There is a temple to Lugus, for example, that claims that Lugus is dead and they worship hideously disfigured statues of their fallen god.

The only god without a temple is Mammon. Mammon believes that the entire city is his temple.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Camulos.jpg

Petitioners who pass through Mammon's trial are dropped into the eternal war of Camulos. There is no order here, there is little logic or reason. Only pain, hatred and battle. The world is as chaotic as those that fill it and volcanoes blast the sky while earthquakes raze and create mountains.

The point of this hell is to desensitize the petitioner to any form of pain. To go beyond any moral qualms at hurting or killing anyone. To delight in inflicting pain and build a need to torment others. To enjoy feeling pain themselves.

A petitioner that is born here begins small and weak. Their exact form and abilities vary widely based on the personality of the soul. There is little pattern to them. They are the subject of pain for a long time before they ever have any chance to inflict it. They start as little more than savage beasts, their memories are lost when leaving Mammon's world and they are reduced only to their base nature. In time that nature will grow, but the memories of life will be faint or gone altogether from this point on. In time they become stronger until eventually their conquests will be legendary. If Mammon's hell is the corruption of the mind, this hell is the corruption of the spirit.

Land is held by the powerful warlords of the plane, who travel in bands that are constantly betrayed by their members. Once a petitioner has grown strong enough they will simply be swallowed by the earth and surrounding warlords will be quick to step in and fill the void of the missing warlord.

Occasionally powerful demons will come to this vault on hunting expeditions. They hunt the greatest or least of the spirits here and take them as servants (to fight in their own arenas as they aren’t worth much else) or merely for the pleasure of killing them. There are occasional wastelands here, the shallows, where some spirits hide to escape the constant battle. Whatever peace they find doesn't last long, and the hell hounds and demon hunters make regular trips into the shallows to gather new slaves. Sometimes demons pull petitioners directly out of this vault to serve them in Erebus. These are enraged, wild demons. Strong, but without reason.

The pits and tunnels beneath this vault are filled with vast prisons were the victims of war are kept. Here they suffer the worst physical torments and are forever unable to die. If there is any art in this violent hell it is in the perfection of torture. Trapped within dark holes, blood pouring through the ground like water and with the walls trembling with earthquakes and explosions you find the least fortunate of hells denizens.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Aeron.jpg

The chaos is ended. The vault of Aeron is formed to train demons in all the skills they will need on Erebus. It could be thought of as a great academy, but its closer to say that it is a great temple. Demons learn to fight, lie, and channel power. They learn the great deceptions, and to subjugate themselves to their superiors. Through this training they become a part of the infernal hierarchy. Priests as well as warriors, commanders and soldiers.

Many demons are tasked with missions in Erebus as part of this training. Imps are students early in their training. Many of the intelligent demons in Erebus are just in a stage of their training here. Those that have passed beyond this vault are the most rare and powerful of processed souls, demonic lords and princes.

Occasionally particularly vile petitioners (priests of the veil, etc) will skip all the earlier stages and start here in Aeron’s vault ready for training.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Agares.jpg

This is the conclusion. Agares takes little interest in the powerful figures that make their home in the mutable surface of his world. From the runs of Nyx the demon princes raise dark palaces and lay claim to their own small fiefdoms. There is little beyond this, the demons are drawn to it because of their affinity to Agares but few remain here long. Instead they begin their plots on Erebus or join the ranks of a god that appeals to them. In time their fiefdoms vanish and their palaces fade back to dust.

Bhall lays burning in this realm and her corrupted angels with her. It is at the edge of her influence that the most demonic activity happens. As was never true before her fall the demonic denizens of this realm have begun to act together, impassioned by her presence they now delight in their schemes and have taken a much greater interest in creation. Cabal's have formed and even Hyborem seeks to challenge Erebus itself.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Ceridwen.jpg

Ceridwen's vault is the largest and has no size at all. It is what binds all the hells together, and them with Erebus. It is not what’s on either side of the doorway, but the space between, the doorway itself.

Though there are no physical bounds to her world there are shadowy gaps within it, places between worlds. The laws of nature are not fixed within these worlds, that which is set in the laws of creation is mutable here. By drawing from these places, pulling them into creation these laws can be bent. Fire can be made to move and leap, the dominions that were once subordinate only to the gods can be commanded by men.

Esus may be the god of deception, but Cerdiwen is the queen of secrets. Even her highest angels are only privy to tiny parts of the vast web of portals and hidden spaces that make up her world. It is known that she has countless passages into Erebus and the hells, but most suspect that she travels between many more worlds. Perhaps even beyond those created by the gods of Erebus.


http://kael.civfanatics.net/images/Esus.jpg

Occasionally a petitioner refuses the processing of hell and attempts to escape. A handful of fallen angels have risen, or petitioners have triumphed over hell by manifesting the virtues that each vault attempts to remove from them and going through it backward until they climb the mountain of Mulcarn’s realm and pass by the throne of hell itself back into Erebus. But this is an incredibly rare event.

Most commonly those wishing to escape hell find their way into the illusionary world of Esus. This world appears as Erebus in every way. It is even populated by simulacrum’s of the people the petitioner knew in life. They can return to their life here, they can believe that they have escaped from hell. But such joy will be short lived.

The function of this hell is to remove any motivation that is keeping a petitioner from his processing. Those that escape hell for love will find their love again, but it will sour and fade. Those that escape to follow their duty will find their tasks to be eventually flawed and meaningless. Those that are searching for a new faith will find their worship empty and hollow.

Everything in Esus’s realm is a lie, and it is the most cunning trap of hell.

Very interesting, it seems that the hells are a well oiled machine. I especially like Esus's realm, though what do the demons do here on their off time, I can't imagine that many get as far as Esus. Incidentally I'm starting to imagine Aeron as Tsun Tzu.

though what do the demons do here on their off time
If I understood you, you ask which demons go as far as Esus to serve in his realm? Maybe none. This world is a simulacrum of the real world, and the power of Esus is enough to maintain it (in my opinon).

Thank you very much, Kael. This part of Erebus Lore is very interesting and I enjoyed the information.

Very nice info. I wonder what heavens look like?

Also, in which hell does man you start? Except for really bad men, like AV priests, who start in Aerons, everyone else starts in Mulcarns?

Also, it turns out it's better to be really vile and start in Aerons hell than mere thug and ten suffer through all layers of hell?

TheJopa: the point is that the priests would not need these de-virtue-ilazations because the first three layers ofhell teach what they already preached.

@TheJopa: Yeah, seems Hell ain't fair. Remember, Erebus' hell isn't a place of punishment, but training. They aren't inflicting pain on them because they're bad people, but to make sure they're bad people.
If anything, you could argue your best options in Hell are to either try and climb out (obviously), or settle in Mammon's Hell and hope he takes a liking to you and doesn't mind-wipe you. In the former case, if you end up in Esus' hell... well, we as omniscient outside observers would be able to put two and two together and realize the illusion and escape, but most mortals wouldn't know what hit them. I suppose particularly observant souls might figure it out, though. But if you know you've been too corrupt to go up, sticking with Mammon's hell seems the smart thing. Again, though, this is speaking as an omniscient observer who knows going on isn't worth it.

Some few never leave this stage of hell and become permanent citizens of this city. They are occasionally rise into powerful positions, slave traders, dream merchants, cult leaders, etc. Occasionally Mammon will take those that seem stuck and wipe their memories, forcing them to restart their entry into the city, but sometimes he leaves them be.mathematically, I have a problem with either the words "few" or "occasionally", since as described otherwise only 1 in 7 can ever pass beyond, unless the Balors give out coins to keep the system going.

mathematically, I have a problem with either the words "few" or "occasionally", since as described otherwise only 1 in 7 can ever pass beyond, unless the Balors give out coins to keep the system going.

Likely, the coins are recycled: given out for winning depraved competitions, doing dirty work for higher-ranking demons, scattered randomly for people to pick up, or rarely gifted to a particularly nasty soul who they particularly want in a lower level sooner rather than later.

mathematically, I have a problem with either the words "few" or "occasionally", since as described otherwise only 1 in 7 can ever pass beyond, unless the Balors give out coins to keep the system going.

I should have said some few never leave this stage intentionally. This is the 2nd most populated (there are more souls in mulcarns wastes) layer of hell. Even through all these ages there are fewer and fewer the deeper you get.

Very interesting read! Great that you posted this Kael.

Mammon's hell seems really cruel. You take a desperate "man", give him some hope and purpose only to turn him into someone who abuses other people for his own gain.
I get the feeling that once you pass through Mammon's hell this way, there is no turning back.

Wow, fascinating read. The Vault of Esus certainly is something to be feared. To escape hell for love, only to find it and then have it turn sour, To escape for faith only to find it hollow, to find all that you yearned for in life and hell to be not what you thought, and in fact the opposite, is especially cruel.


Excellent read. Thanks for posting!

Nice. I it is pretty much as I suspected, except that I hadn't really come up wth something for Esus.



Hmm...I just got tho thinking it could be interesting if it were revealed that the Bannor never really did escape hell, but that everything that has happened since they reemerged actually took place in Esus's hell.





Are you sure that Mulcarn's vault is the most populated? I'm pretty sure that you had previously said that most souls end up in hell because of their greed, and so more souls head directly to Mammon's vault than anywhere.



So, when do we get to learn about the vaults of the good and neutral gods?

Oh, these pretty images.

Kael, can you put up all the missing vaults' images later please?

And who is the artist? The images have some inner synergy, I think it's a single man/group of artists who made them. I'd like to see more works like these.

P.S. I may be wrong and maybe it's your designer skill who made them to look connected, but I'd like to see more images from the source still, because I quite enjoy them.

So does this means that the very few who ever get to Agares'es realm, the baddest of the bad, graduate only to become Manes? You think that manes would be more capable, is it because flesh is more substantial than corrupted soul?

So does this means that the very few who ever get to Agares'es realm, the baddest of the bad, graduate only to become Manes? You think that manes would be more capable, is it because flesh is more substantial than corrupted soul?

No, Manes are the least of the demons. The begining of the process. Hyborem is grabbing the souls heading through the Throne of Hell and forcing them into his service. He isnt waiting the centuries it takes for them to become true demons.

Ah, I see... I always thought that the evil gods sponsored Hyborem, but on the agreement that he would receive aid only when he harvested mortals for the refinement process.

Also perhaps you mean that he isn't waiting the centuries for them to become true demons? What you said is a valid statement, so I'm not too sure though.

So doesn't that mean Manes should look more like frostlings? Or is it because they have been thrown into the service of hyborian that they fiery and entropic.

...Esus may be the god of deception, but Cerdiwen is the queen of secrets. Even her highest angels are only privy to tiny parts of the vast web of portals and hidden spaces that make up her world. It is known that she has countless passages into Erebus and the hells, but most suspect that she travels between many more worlds. Perhaps even beyond those created by the gods of Erebus...

Now that right there is a grade-A certified dementedly enigmatic statement. So I'm to assume Ceridwen is responsible for Spiderkins landing in an Erebus that has not seen their like. I suspect this will be left as a minor lore detail for this subforum, a possible convenient explanation of anything truly bizarre, and possibly something for mod-modders to toy with, but if I cast Wonder and find myself staring at an M1-Abrams, I'll know who to blame.

Beneath the surface the largest source of petitioners in hell are trapped, this is the purgatory for the non-committal.

Well now we know where all the citizens of the neutral civs end up. Or 99% of the population in Erebus for that matter.

So why do the Angels of Good still think they can win?

Well, before the Compact it was stated that Good was winning, albeit a rather Pyrrhic victory in which that which they were protecting was still being destroyed. After Succelus and Danalin got involved it was enough for Agares to think he would be better off ending the war.


When was the great machine of hell formed? Did the compact just reaffirm an existing practice of claiming the souls of mortals, or establish a new right? (If the latter, then I think we can see why Agares really wanted it to pass, as that would be essential to making this new demon processor to give himself a huge advantage.)


So, what separates those destined for Mulcarn's hell from those who end up in Arawn's Netherworld? It would seem odd for people who are just a little indecisive to be destined to hell while Laroth goes to the vault of a neutral god. Don't a majority of souls still make it to the netherworld instead of the vault of a god they (even subconsciously) worshiped?


Also, how are angels processed? I don't think there has ever been any mention of the good gods linking their heavens together into any such machine. I'm not sure they would be able to without somehow getting Ceridwen to help, and I don't think Sirona and Junil would be willing to work together in this way if they could. May we assume that becoming an angel happens entirely in one vault, and that it is thus a much slower process?

My impression is, everyone who worshipped a god goes to that god's vault, including people who worshipped neutral gods. If you didn't worship a god for whatever reason, you go to Mulcarn's vault.

Lots of good questions. A "good person" who isnt religious (ie: isnt claimed by a good god) goes to Arawn's realm. "Bad people" are supposed to go to hell, though their amount of wickedness determines where they are dumped. The swamp gets the vast majority of these.

Thats how it is supposed to work. But the agents of hell are ever eager to collect as many souls as possible, even those that rightfully belong in other vaults. They fight for these souls when the people are alive, and they continue to fight for them when the people die. The swamps of Mulcarns realm hold many spirits that may not have been greatly virtuous, but dont deserve the eternity of hell either.


With the light came angels, not the barbaric ones that traveled with Basium, but gentle compassionate creatures that tended to the wounded men and spirits alike. The darkest spirits had been dragged into hell when the Throne of Hell was destroyed, but thousands still remained, those stolen unfairly by the demons or trapped between the ideals of heaven and the failure of hell.

I walked among them, blessed souls seeking forgiveness, shared the pain with those who had carried it alone for so long. Other members of my army were the same, weary but unwilling to stop tending to these souls. It was as if we rescued a kingdom under a cruel despot, but no one had suffered as horribly as these souls had. For many it was the first kindness they had experienced in centuries.

So where was Tebryn before being picked up by Ceridwen? And did Charadon have enough Winter inside him to tolerate Mulcarn's vault reasonably well before whatever arcane ritual pulled him back? Baron Duin Halfmorn gives the impression of having made it as far as Camulos at least.

I feel like Tebryn was probably underneath Camulos hell getting tortured horrifically. Thus him willing to do anything to avoid go back

He said it to me, he was pleading with me and commanding me at the same time. I tried to follow it, everything except Cassiel seemed distant. I could see Abagail at my feet, the rest was clouds of grey flowing into each other. I looked at these clouds, there were shapes in them, figures, faces. And I began to see other spirits in them. Men and women, orcs and elves, children and adults, all caught in their own grey worlds.
-Cassiel's civilopedia entry.
Where are all these spirits, exactly? Is Elizabeth having visions of Arwan's vault, or are they someplace else?

Yeah, she was one of the unclaimed good people so she was seeing into Arawns vault.

Speaking of Cassiel...

I wonder what vault he went to. Seems like he may be in Mulcarn's wastes. I wonder if he is too depressed to even move on and try to push up past the throne for his way out...

Kael Quick question about the "conclusion of Lord of the Balors"..

the Throne of Hell was destroyed I remember this part of the victory, and it did have me wondering. What does this mean actually, does in mean Mulcarn's vault was destroyed?

Kael Quick question about the "conclusion of Lord of the Balors"..

I remember this part of the victory, and it did have me wondering. What does this mean actually, does in mean Mulcarn's vault was destroyed?

No, the Throne of Hell isnt Mulcarns vault, it is the portal between Mulcarn's Vault and Erebus. Note that it isn't the only portal between the worlds, it was the most used but bad people are still going to hell.

as it should be :jesus: :mwaha: :satan:

Just to catch up on previous conversation where a minor math error was made:



Mammon's Hell stated that each entrant is granted a single coin and issued into the city, but they need 7 coins to get out.


People have been stating that this means it is impossible for more than 1 in every 7 people to move beyond Mammon's Vault. This is not true however. As Kael stated:

Occasionally Mammon will take those that seem stuck and wipe their memories, forcing them to restart their entry into the city, but sometimes he leaves them be.

The people would think something off was happening if they walked into the city with no memories, weren't given anything at all, and slowly realized that everyone else got a coin on entry. Thus each time Mammon "Resets" an individual, he is adding another coin to his hell and making it possible for more than 1 in 7 to escape to the next layer.

Then what happened to Mulcarn when he died?

So I'm alittle fuzzy, I know that the people of Erebus often don't know the nature of the divine. So often times their sects and beliefs that no basis in reality, what happens to those who worship false gods?

edit: I believe that he probably went to the Netherworld like Sully. The former god of nature. I should really take the time to memorize their spellings.

Let me see if I'm reading this right. Being neutral might send you to Mulcarn's vault, but there's a difference between a peasant not caring about the fate of the world because he's too busy struggling to survive and a wealthy gentleman of leisure who, although not actively malevolent and essentially harmless, throws away money on indulgences and doesn't really care about anyone outside of his own circle of friends. The former would find himself in Arwan's vault, unless his religion sent him elsewhere, or the forces of Hell actively intervened, while the latter would likely be fated for Mulcarn's vault.
Short version seems to be "if in doubt, Arwan gets 'em, unless they were worthless layabouts, in which case they're off to Mulcarn."

So the Manes that we actually see in-game are evil souls snagged by Hyborem before they could pass into whichever layer of hell they were bound for?

Where does someone who, say, actively worships Camulos and carries out acts of gory violence in his name go when he dies? I don't mean a particularly violent demonologist from a Veil sect or anything, just something like a clan brute who heard of this god who fits his lifestyle and decided to worship him.

So the Manes that we actually see in-game are evil souls snagged by Hyborem before they could pass into whichever layer of hell they were bound for?

Thats what it sounds like, though you think Hyborem could also "trade" souls for full demons (The gods say, you give us x amount of fresh souls and we give you one trained demon)

People have been stating that this means it is impossible for more than 1 in every 7 people to move beyond Mammon's Vault. This is not true however. As Kael stated:Actually, what I was saying was that either much more than a few people stayed in mammons hell, or that much more often than occasionally did memory wiped people re-enter with new coins.

Kael cleared it up, though--only a few chose to stay, but many, many are simply stuck.

I'd expect much less than 1 in 7 make it through even still, though, since many of those who stay probably do so because they've become powerful by tricking large numbers of souls out of their coins.


Where does someone who, say, actively worships Camulos and carries out acts of gory violence in his name go when he dies? I don't mean a particularly violent demonologist from a Veil sect or anythingI expect that devoted, influencial followers of a god go right to his vault, staying out of this process. The vast majority, though, start at the beginning regardless of the particular god they followed.

Then what happened to Mulcarn when he died?

I believe that Mulcarn was trapped inside his palace and remained there untill Auric came along/ was born.



About Esus's hell, is it possible to escape or will the souls be unable to escape the Hells ever. For example if a soul only wanted to escape hell so they would not be there, would the vault not counter it?

I would assume that Auric was conceived at the very moment that Mulcarn lost his life, and immediately filled with the god's divine spark. There could have been a small delay, but probably no longer than the delay it would normally take for a soul to be drawn into the Netherworld or the Throne of Hell.



I'm still wondering how Laroth didn't go to hell. He certainly seems evil enough. Did he somehow convince the evil gods with a claim to his soul that he would be more useful to them in the Netherworld?





Simply wanting to escape hell would never be enough for one to escape; one must develop and display the virtues counter to the vices that the hells are meant to engender and enhance in order to escape. The selfish motive of simply not wanting to suffer is not a virtue that would help one escape. Well, I can think of one exception, but I don't think Tebryn's escape will last, and few would have the strength to even make such a deal. It would pretty much take valuing something greater than oneself in order to drive someone to improve oneself enough to get out. Esus's hell is designed to make what was driving one to escape seem pointless, so as to remove the drive needed in order to resist the corruption of hell.

I would probably say that Esus's hell can be escaped just like any other hell, by displaying the virtues opposite his sphere (honesty, devotion to truth, discernment, basically the Empyrean values). I imagine a scene like that in the Aeneid (which I believe was borrowed by Dante) with 2 gates in hell, where the larger and more beautiful one leads to tartarus and the small uglier one leading to the Elysian Fields. Of course, in this case it would be a gate leading out of hell instead of into the underworld, where one must take the less hopeful looking path to escape for real. Actually, I'm thinking that having the dead return to Erebus on their own without being called by by powerful life magic like that doesn't seem right, so I'd prefer to think the choice is between Esus's hell and Arawn's netherworld. Then, there is a tiny chance that one with the strength of will to overcome their own subconscious delusions made real could escape into the dark of the shadowed vale or Brandeline's Well and have a small chance of making it back into creation. Basium is no longer guarding the gate from the Netherworld into Creation like he was supposed to, so it might be a little easier than it would have been before the compact, but it would till require the help of a powerful Life archmage or of Sucellus himself to have any real shot at coming back into Erebus.

...I'm still wondering how Laroth didn't go to hell. He certainly seems evil enough. Did he somehow convince the evil gods with a claim to his soul that he would be more useful to them in the Netherworld?...

My bet? He knew enough about Spirit magic to give the middle finger to the rules of death. I imagine him basically deciding, "I'm going to Arwan's netherworld when I die," and then, through a mixture of arcane skill, research regarding the soul and vaults, and pure willpower, proceeded to do just that. If he didn't land directly in Arwan's vault by shielding himself from Hell's influence, he doubtless knew the layers of Hell, including Esus' deception, well enough to smash his way out.
I like this view mostly because it's awesome, though. :cool:

Yeah I would tend to agree, I'm all for awesome mortals, especially those who tutored under one of the most accomplished mortal of Erebus.

I don't think he could have worked his way out of hell. He is still quite evil, and escaping hell on your own merits involves becoming good. Of course, he could also have made a deal with a devil and convinced him that he is more useful to their cause in the Netherworld. Maybe someone who is skilled at drawing souls together and binding them into weapons would also have the skill to navigate his own soul straight into the netherworld before a demon could come and collect it though.

Where is Gastrius now? Or any of Kyorlin's other unaccounted for students?



What can you tell us about the Demon Lords from the Lord of the Balors scenario? Where they all (excluding Hyborem) originally mortals, or were some created as demons to begin with, or even as angels? What gods did they serve? What gods, if any, did they choose to serve once becoming demon lords?

Where is Gastrius now? Or any of Kyorlin's other unaccounted for students?

As to Gastrius, I recall that in Perpentach's pedia, Old Kylorin refers to having "killed Gastrius for less [than what Perpantach had done]." So, Kylorin killed him... although, exactly what happened to him after his death is a legitimate question. He may be a demonic duke by now, or just another faceless denizen of Hell, or some form of undead still wandering Erebus (like Barbatos), or hibernating in some form of phylactery waiting for some poor fool to open it, or with Laroth, either as an underling or ally...

I have three general questions about hell:

1) How much memory of their previous life petitioners have?
2) I suppose that's impossible to kill someone in hell except the abilities that destroy souls. Petitioners manifestations just reassemble themselves after some time, right?
3) Is casting magic somehow affected in the god's vault?

And I have some issues with Mulcarn vault. While other normal layers of hell (excluding Cerwiden and Esus hells) seems to focus on intensifying their respective god's sphere before petitioner is send to the deeper hell, in Mulcarn vault submitting to it's sphere means halt in his vault. Which seems weird in the well-oiled machine as hell is supposed to be, because the more effective the first layer is, the less petitioners will reach the deeper hell.

Ad Laroth: What evil deeds he done in his life (Except being Patrian archmage)? I can't remember.

Wow, that was amazing. A few more articles like that and running a DnD campaign in Erebus will be a lot easier. :D

I think of Mulcarn's Lair as more of a "filter" for the souls. You don't want aimless, unmotivated minions. So if they are content to just leave and let live, leave them to rot till they begin to value action.

And I have some issues with Mulcarn vault. While other normal layers of hell (excluding Cerwiden and Esus hells) seems to focus on intensifying their respective god's sphere before petitioner is send to the deeper hell, in Mulcarn vault submitting to it's sphere means halt in his vault. Which seems weird in the well-oiled machine as hell is supposed to be, because the more effective the first layer is, the less petitioners will reach the deeper hell.

Thats very true. But the infernal hierarchy as a whole doesn't want to encourage lazy demons. Sloth may be a fine trait in a mortal, but they dont want it in the demonic hosts.

So Mulcarns domain is the storage vat of hell, the place where they stick all of the souls that arent ready. Mammon doesnt want the scattered masses of every war rushing his city. He wants them when they are ready, when they have ambition, when they can be turned into something more. Also remember that the infernals are gathering far more than they are supposed to, so many of the souls resting beneath the waters shouldnt be there.

But the true purpose of Mulcarns realm isnt to to keep people from going into the hells, but to keep them from going out. The stasis, the mountain, the swamp are all an attempt to keep anyone from escaping.

Kael, you haven't answered yet, who is/are the artist(s)?

What happens to those actually loyal to Mulcarn when they die who have no greater hellish ambitions? Are they put in cold storage like the army of "statues" that were animated when Mulcarn marched on Creation or do they live in some weird city or dwelling somewhere in the vault?

Yeah, she was one of the unclaimed good people so she was seeing into Arawns vault.
Thank you!
I think that Mulcarn's faithful would have been turned into statues, but now that Mulcarn isn't in his vault anymore I'd imagine things have gotten a bit chaotic. Maybe your ultimate fate (stature, frostling, frost-demon) is determined by how you follow Mulcarn?

Also remember that the infernals are gathering far more than they are supposed to, so many of the souls resting beneath the waters shouldnt be there.

How are they managing to get more than they should? I would think the gods would be picky about that.

I don't think he could have worked his way out of hell. He is still quite evil, and escaping hell on your own merits involves becoming good. Of course, he could also have made a deal with a devil and convinced him that he is more useful to their cause in the Netherworld. Maybe someone who is skilled at drawing souls together and binding them into weapons would also have the skill to navigate his own soul straight into the netherworld before a demon could come and collect it though.

Perhaps if someone should find their way to Ceridwen's vault, there are ways to escape the hells?

Or alternatively perhaps he was allowed to escape upon agreeing to pledge allegiance to the Evil Gods should he suceed in usurping the Death sphere?

- even if he fails to replace Arawn, it would still be a suitable destraction to help limit Arawn should He ever deem the compact irretrievably broken and give his support against Agares and co

In essence, for some individuals of note, having them go through the various Hells may not be the best use of them....

Thank you!
I think that Mulcarn's faithful would have been turned into statues, but now that Mulcarn isn't in his vault anymore I'd imagine things have gotten a bit chaotic. Maybe your ultimate fate (stature, frostling, frost-demon) is determined by how you follow Mulcarn?Now that Mulcarn isn't there, I'd wager all his followers are simply start the march through the hells, unable to stay there for it is no longer really ruled by their master. If Auric ascends completely, and is able to travel there, I think that would change and the devoted followers of his sphere would be kept around to do his bidding specifically, frozen when not needed.

who exactly created the infernals then? are all these gods, Mulcar, mammon, Esus, Ceridwen Agares etc responsible for their creation or are the infernals purely the product of Agares?

How are they managing to get more than they should? I would think the gods would be picky about that.


Hmm, I think the answer is in Ars Moriendi (or another horseman) pedia...

In a loose sense then the Infernals would refer to all the denizens of the hells. IN the game though it refers specifically to those who are plotting against Erebus and seeking to enter it directly. Hyborem is mostly directly responsible for this, but it is something that happened because Bhall's presence gave the demon lords of the lowest fell the passion to take action in Erebus again. Ther is tacit support from Agares and posibly the other evil gods too, but of the gods Bhall is the most responsible for it.

Great entries! Can't wait till the layers of heaven is unleashed

I don't believe that Heaven has layers. The True Heaven is cut off from all the gods, and the vaults of good gods are not connected. There is no great assembly line for turning dead mortals into angels, so it must happen more slowly in only a single vault, and produce angels whose virtues are closer to an individual god rather than good all around like the demons are evil all around.



I do think we need more info on the vaults of the good and neutral gods though. The heaven I've seen described is Junil's, and the only neutral god's vault described is Arawn's Netherworld.

I do think we need more info on the vaults of the good and neutral gods though. The heaven I've seen described is Junil's, and the only neutral god's vault described is Arawn's Netherworld.

iirc in the begining of the Momus Falamar is in Danalin's (sp?) vault, which is simply water. It has no sky, not earth, just a current.

iirc in the begining of the Momus Falamar is in Danalin's (sp?) vault, which is simply water. It has no sky, not earth, just a current.

Welcome to Civfanatics Vernacular!

iirc in the begining of the Momus Falamar is in Danalin's (sp?) vault, which is simply water. It has no sky, not earth, just a current.

Mmm, that makes me ask, does Fall from Heaven have Elemental Planes and Transitory Planes (Astral, Ethereal, Shadow)?

There are worlds and planes where some gods experimented alone just after the dawn of time. There are also planes of nearly endless elemental energies that Agares used to draw from to power his illict creation.
So if we need any weird and funky thing, like a Ice Giant or Fire Elemental, we can pull it from there.
Then each god also has their home domain like the ones being described here.

I don't believe that Heaven has layers. The True Heaven is cut off from all the gods, and the vaults of good gods are not connected. There is no great assembly line for turning dead mortals into angels, so it must happen more slowly in only a single vault, and produce angels whose virtues are closer to an individual god rather than good all around like the demons are evil all around.


If thats the case, how do you explain Basium's angels? It doesn't seem any of the gods actually support him

If thats the case, how do you explain Basium's angels? It doesn't seem any of the gods actually support him

Basiums angels are like himself, renegades that have abandoned their duty to wage war against the infernal.

Basium's duty used to be to guard the passage that is used for souls to return to Erebus from the Underworld. As such he probably knows how to sneak the renegade souls of angels and dead mortals who become angels to join him in this world.

But how do mortals become angels in the first place? It think that's the new question

Quite interesting. Is 'petitioner' a Planescape borrowing, or is the word also used in a similar context somewhere else that I don't know about? Also, Arawn's Netherworld is apparently described somewhere - I assume in some 'pedia entry somebody could point me to?

I, too, would like to know the artist.

But how do mortals become angels in the first place? It think that's the new question

Angels are either A: created by their gods or B: made out of mortal souls claimed by their "good" gods

I am pretty sure about A, but not too much about B

I think the becoming an Angel process is pretty much the same as the demon process. Without the machine like structure. Basically I think when the soul gets to it Good vault, it becomes an Angel, and gets physical manifestion based on which vault it is. It can then choose to fall if it wishes, as that is allowed by the Compact.

I suppose this is abit of thread necromancy, but I don't really care that much, and this probably should be a stickied thread anyways. Anyways after playing through the Lord of Balors scenario, I've got to thinking. Just where do succubi come from? I mean if I am to understand correctly Daemon processing strips souls of alot of different emotions and desires. Are the carnal desires left intact through this process? Just where do succubi come from?

Is the Duke Sallos some sort military theorist/pervert, who invented the schools of *cubism?*

I can see both Mammon and Esus probably sponsoring a whole line of tempter daemons, not just for sexual temptation but probably for gluttony, laziness and the like. Is one of them, master of the succubi?

Also are there Incubi as well? Being daemons, do these femme fatales enjoy their work? Honestly being a hot blooded male, I'm happy to see daemons that are esthetically pleasing rather than horribly grotesque, but as of now I don't see how they fit into the dehumanizing processing plant that is hell.

p.s. I'm sorry if I let Perpentach out of the tower with this one, but I trust we're all open minded Platonic individuals.

...p.s. I'm sorry if I let Perpentach out of the tower with this one, but I trust we're all open minded Platonic individuals.
I ain't. :p

Is the Duke Sallos some sort military theorist/pervert, who invented the schools of *cubism?*
Cubism? :confused: I must've missed something.

I suppose this is abit of thread necromancy, but I don't really care that much, and this probably should be a stickied thread anyways. Anyways after playing through the Lord of Balors scenario, I've got to thinking. Just where do succubi come from? I mean if I am to understand correctly Daemon processing strips souls of alot of different emotions and desires. Are the carnal desires left intact through this process? Just where do succubi come from?

...

I can see both Mammon and Esus probably sponsoring a whole line of tempter daemons, not just for sexual temptation but probably for gluttony, laziness and the like. Is one of them, master of the succubi?

Also are there Incubi as well? Being daemons, do these femme fatales enjoy their work? Honestly being a hot blooded male, I'm happy to see daemons that are esthetically pleasing rather than horribly grotesque, but as of now I don't see how they fit into the dehumanizing processing plant that is hell.
Alrighty then. I should imagine that carnal desires can indeed be kept intact, if warped to an especially unpleasant form. A particularly perverse combatant in Camulos' vault, or one who uses lust to get past Mammon's city, might be trained as an succubus (or incubus) upon arrival in Aeron's vault.
It's also possible that succubi are made raw, not from processed souls, explicitly for the purpose of seduction and murder, in which case, again, Aeron would seem the most likely candidate for the making of such.

Cubism? I must've missed something.

A bad joke, what would you call the arts of seduction and corruption?

I believe that someone said Succubi may be some form of Cambion.

By the way, what happens if you worshipped an evil god such as Camulus and was pretty fanatic about it. Would you still need to suffer at their vault or would they be immediately converted into a demon upon arrival? Okat maybe that was a bad example considering the Mahala's civpedia, but what about Mammon and Esus? If you worshipped them, would you still be dropped off at the Great Machination of Hell?

yes and no. You would be converted to a demon fitting for the god you worshiped and the level of your natural corruption. The whole purpose of the great demon making hell machine is to make you ready for what ever purpose they need your for. If you are a devout worshiper then they have already gotten you to a certain point depending on your "piety".

@Kael: Any plans on making a thread like this describing neutral and good gods' vaults? I really enjoyed this one

@Kael: Any plans on making a thread like this describing neutral and good gods' vaults? I really enjoyed this one

Not really. There are tons of things on my to do list, and unless I get a wild desire to write them up (which happens form time to time and happened with the layers of hell) I doubt its going to get anywhere near to the top of the list.

Not really. There are tons of things on my to do list, and unless I get a wild desire to write them up (which happens form time to time and happened with the layers of hell) I doubt its going to get anywhere near to the top of the list.

Awww, man!

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/Swiper.jpg

swiper, no swiping Kaels time!

yep too many of us spending time here and not with the kids.... ;)

where do worshipers of the overlords end up?

Danalin's vault I think. As evidenced by one of the campagins. Although if Danalin wakes up, he may kick them out.

It probably depends on thier actions in life. not all OO cults are evil , slaving cults. Some Cults are philanthropic... it all depends on what thier respective Overlord tells them. it is in no way a unified religion. therefore, I'm sure Sirona could claim some of the Good ones, while Hell may grab the evil cultists.

Danalin is worshiped indirectly thought the cults of the overlords, so I suspect that many overlord worshipers would wind up in Danalin's vault. However, the Overlords themselves are extremely selfish beings, as are the highest ranking cultists. Even if Mammon's archangel was not (indirectly) responsible for the creation of the Overlords, I would be inclined to think that a significant proportion of the higher class overlords' followers go straight to Mammon's hell.

I believe that in any religion only the truly devout wind up in their god's vault (although evil gods have a much looser interpretation of what being devout means). Most souls remain unclaimed and so find their rest in the netherworld, where they spend the rest of eternity dreaming and being punished or rewarded based on what their subconscious believe they deserve..

While some Overlords aren't are malevolent as others and may be willing to do good just to spite their rivals, I would not consider any of them even benevolent or philanthropic. That does not mean individual cultists or dreamers can't be good people though.

I believe that there are still some temples devoted to the old faith of Danalin, but since the god of water's slumber means he no longer answersany prayers these aren't as popular as they once were. I have evidence that at least one Illian village turned to worshiping the sleeping god of water in place of the dead god of ice. However, I don't know exactly when Hastur entered Danalin's vault or when Hemah was born, so it could be that the old faith lasted for the first few years of the age of rebirth but was wiped out when the overlords emerged.

Danalin is worshiped indirectly thought the cults of the overlords, so I suspect that many overlord worshipers would wind up in Danalin's vault. However, the Overlords themselves are extremely selfish beings, as are the highest ranking cultists. Even if Mammon's archangel was not (indirectly) responsible for the creation of the Overlords, I would be inclined to think that a significant proportion of the higher class overlords' followers go straight to Mammon's hell.

I believe that in any religion only the truly devout wind up in their god's vault (although evil gods have a much looser interpretation of what being devout means). Most souls remain unclaimed and so find their rest in the netherworld, where they spend the rest of eternity dreaming and being punished or rewarded based on what their subconscious believe they deserve..

While some Overlords aren't are malevolent as others and may be willing to do good just to spite their rivals, I would not consider any of them even benevolent or philanthropic. That does not mean individual cultists or dreamers can't be good people though.

I believe that there are still some temples devoted to the old faith of Danalin, but since the god of water's slumber means he no longer answersany prayers these aren't as popular as they once were. I have evidence that at least one Illian village turned to worshiping the sleeping god of water in place of the dead god of ice. However, I don't know exactly when Hastur entered Danalin's vault or when Hemah was born, so it could be that the old faith lasted for the first few years of the age of rebirth but was wiped out when the overlords emerged.

It'd be logical to assume that Hastur was sent shortly after Danalin's post-Aifon-annihilation slumber began. It surely wouldn't take Mammon/Hastur (I don't recall whose idea it was) centuries to realize "ooh, let's give the Sleeping God nightmares and see what happens!" Hemah may, however, be a relatively new part of the equation, some indirect result of Mulcarn's death. After all, the world awakening after a few centuries of icy slumber would surely cause the Sleeping God to toss and turn a bit.

If that was the case one would think bhall's fiery fall, or mulcarn entering creation, or duking it out with succellus or kylorin might have at least made him roll over if not wake up. And it would really make sense for mammon to have sent hastur the second danalin fell asleep since foresight was his precept.

Didn't Hastur invade Oghma's vault at the beginning of the Age of Ice? I thought I remembered that from somewhere. Whch would mean Hastur didn't arrive in Danalin's vault until maybe the beginning of the Age of Rebirth..?

Didn't Hastur invade Oghma's vault at the beginning of the Age of Ice? I thought I remembered that from somewhere. Whch would mean Hastur didn't arrive in Danalin's vault until maybe the beginning of the Age of Rebirth..?

Assuming, of course, the gods are bound by the same laws of physics and time that mortals are.

I like to think they aren't....time likely has little meaning to an eternal god....who's to say Hastur couldn't invade Oghma's vault and Danalin's vault at the same time?

Only the one has control over time. The gods are as prey to it as mortals.

Out of curiosity, what would happen to someone with multiple personality disorder, in that they had a bunch of different personalities/minds that believed in multiple gods/could be claimed for multiple hells?

Say one side is a greedy guy worthy of Mammon, another Sirona, and a bunch of others thrown in. Who gets dibs?

I'd say Mammon because he gets dibs on crazy folks or Hastur does. If not, he may get claimed by OO Danalin. Sirona may try to cure him while he is alive though.

It isn't really clear that even the One had time control power. Creating the Orb of Temporance may have involved willingly limiting his own power in that regard.



Different planes have different laws of physics. The gods wrote the laws of physics in their own vault and worked together to write the laws that govern Erebus. There were limitations to what they could write though, such as not being able to control time. When The One removed the power to create ex nihilo, he also removed the ability to rewrite the laws of physics. Such laws can however still be bent somewhat, by anyone with a divine spark. Such rule bending is called magic, but since the rules cannot truly be changed anything magically altered will eventually return to its previous state, even if the one using the magic was a god. Because their divine sparks are closer to the source and so likely stronger, because they have the most experience using magic, and because they know the laws they wrote better than any mortal could hope to learn the gods' magic is far superior to that or men, but their miracles are not eternal.

Ceridwen has access to far more planes of existence than the other gods know exist, and a lot of these were specifically made to have laws radially different from those of Erebus. Connecting planes that operate under different laws of physics allows for the most powerful forms of magic.

Magic also depends upon the raw materials of the 21 precepts. Humans are limited to channeling this from sources in their own plane, or at least planes that are closely connected. Gods do not have this limitation, and neither to Djinni. Each god's own body serves as an immense well of the power of his own precept so they have no need to gather mana together before releasing it. Agares created an infinite plane of each element and created the gems of creation to allow channeling this power out. He made this power available to all the gods, and even the most good gods continue to use his while damning him for the act of making them. Agares hates them mostly for this hypocrisy. The well of power within each god was likely refilled from these gems, although I suspect The One wanted the gods to exhaust their precepts so that they would become balanced and have the true free will that the gods lack. I like to think that The One values freedom as much as Agares, but while Agares thinks he needs power to be free The One knows that no soul can be free unless freed from the burden of power. I think that kind of freedom would be anathema to Ceridwen, who views it as the complete destruction of her precept, so she incited Agares to rebel.

The Gems of Water, Air, and Death have been stolen by mortals, who are now practically as powerful as gods although they remain mortal and don't fully understand how to use the power. In Kael's D&D Campaign, Tuoni, the brother who holds the Gem of Death, was the main enemy behind Tebryn's attempt to destroy the world. He wanted to kill everyone and enslave their souls in order to make a new world of the dead where he would reign supreme. Auric supported the ritual early on but fought to stop it when it came close to completion. When the players stopped it, they allowed Auric to use the power that the ritual had already gathered in order to ascend to be the new god of ice. The brother who held the Gem of Air was not named or encountered, but used as an excuse for why the party could not find any allies willing to help them. He had set himself up as a godking and was trying to conquer the world, or maybe he just loved the thrill of destroying random stuff . All armies sent against him were destroyed by tornadoes. I tend to think that having access to so much of the precepts deeply effected the psyche. The Gem of Air would make its user an extreme daredevil who never thinks of the consequences of his actions, so he would eventually die in an incredible stupid accident. The brother with the Gem of Water seems to have disappeared and never really caused anyone trouble. I suspect the nature of the water sphere meant he became really a passive "go with the flow" type with no interest in ruling the world or hurting anyone. It would make him really introverted and pensive, and perhaps just too lazy to use the gem enough to make him go crazy like his brothers.


getting back on subject...
In the D&D campaign where the forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault, that vault was Erebus. I believe that Kael has stated it still happened in FfH canon, although Oghma's vault is not Erebus, the cities of Alexandria and Prespur and the Cliffs of Hastur are in Erebus instead, and Lita the Witch is no longer an angel of Oghma. Mardero was conceived as a half human to get around the Compact, rather than half angel-of-Oghma in order to be immune to the food that wiped the memories of the demons that tried to invade the vault.


It has never been stated that Hastur was involved in the invasion of Oghma's vault, only that armies of Mammon invaded. I conjectured that Hastur is the demon who raped Lita, but that is based mostly on the name of the cliffs from which she was dropped, and in the canon those cliffs are in a part of Erebus now owned by the Balseraphs. As Mammon's archangel he would be the most logical general in that war, but he may not have entered the vault personally. Perhaps he stayed on the outside coordinating strategies, or maybe he foresaw the mist and so just sent demons where they would cause the most damage without any hope that they would remember their orders.

The forces of Mammon invaded Oghma's vault for a specific reason, to find an extremely important secret that could be found only in a library there. The mist means that the demons there don't know what they are seeking though, and wouldn't know if they found it. I have no clue what the secret is, but I tend to think it probably involves The One. Maybe he has secretly returned or found a way to communicate to the Luonnatar. Maybe he left a way to contact him, one secret backdoor into the true heaven. Or it could be something completely different. It is possible that the forces of Mammon recovered some other important secrets before the mist changed the nature of the war. Maybe in Oghma's vault Hastur discovered that he could manipulate the subconscious of a sleeping god to unlock power far greater than that of any waking deity, and could do so without violating the letter of the Compact.



I don't recall Condatis saying how long Hastur has been in her god's vault, but it sounded like it was a relatively recent occurrence. It is possible that she successfully defended the vault of water from the forces of Mammon for several centuries, and has only recently failed to keep Hastur away.

Also of interest, Condatis seems to think that Hastur was coordinating the actions of Tebryn in order to make him destroy the world just to distract her from keeping him away from Danalin. Mammon is not a god who wants the world destroyed, so it seems unlikely that his archangel would risk it unless controlling Danalin is really important.

What if he found evidence in Oghma's vault that controlling Danalin's dreams was the key to defeating The One? What if Oghma planted false evidence to this effect, just to get him to back off or maybe in an attempt to manipulate the master manipulator into doing something that would eventually lead to the downfall of the evil gods?

OOooh... Trippy. ;)

Also of interest, Condatis seems to think that Hastur was coordinating the actions of Tebryn in order to make him destroy the world just to distract her from keeping him away from Danalin. Mammon is not a god who wants the world destroyed, so it seems unlikely that his archangel would risk it unless controlling Danalin is really important.


I wouldn't sasy that, Mammon is now the god of short-term rewards and not considering the consequences of your actions. I think he may simple have not considered the result of destroying the world.

I wouldn't sasy that, Mammon is now the god of short-term rewards and not considering the consequences of your actions. I think he may simple have not considered the result of destroying the world.
Huh? Mammon is the god of greed and foresight. Since he can essentially read the future, how can he not consider the results of his actions?

Mammon was the God of Foresight. When he fell, he lost the ability to see the future. It was replaced with a strong desire to control the future, and everything else for that matter. He seeks to possess everything, and while he is still quite good at plotting he tends to overlook whatever consequences (especially the negative consequences that others will suffer) that his actions will take apart from those on which he focuses his attention.

Mammon was the God of Foresight. When he fell, he lost the ability to see the future. It was replaced with a strong desire to control the future, and everything else for that matter. He seeks to possess everything, and while he is still quite good at plotting he tends to overlook whatever consequences (especially the negative consequences that others will suffer) that his actions will take apart from those on which he focuses his attention.
Really? Huh, I didn't know that. I always thought they maintained control of what they had before...

Kael seems to prefer to think that their original aspects are completely lost to the world. I prefer to think they still exist, but are much harder to access and trying to do so will generally lead to following the fallen aspect instead.

What if a god rose, though? For instance, what if Mulcarn (even though he's dead, I'm picking him because he was the least evil of the evil gods) were to want to rejoin the good/neutral gods and side with the One? Would the precept of winter revert to what it was before he fell? Much as fire flipped to a darker fire once Bhall fell?

I would think so, but what was it before?

The Ice sphere didn't change a whole lot. The sphere was always resistance to change, although it become much more reactionary rather than just conservative once he fell. In Mulcarn's musing before his invasion of Erebus he chastised Man for not recognizing that he provides the world a needed period of rest, without which nature would overexert itself and become so overgrow that it was unsustainable and would just decay. He did not really turn on that part of his nature until the Age of Ice. I see Mulcarn, Danalin, and Arawn as all being very important to our ability to sleep. rest, and rejuvenate ourselves for when our strength is needed again.

Although their god was evil, in the Age of Magic the Frost Speakers (Mulcarn's disciples) were not seen as a threat, and were tolerated even my most good nations (every one but the Bannor I'd guess). The White Hand was significantly less evil than the Octopus Overlords or the Cuncil of Esus, probably closer to the Fellowship of the Leaves in alignment (although these faiths probably did no get along very well).



I would agree with Sirona that evil gods can be redeemed, but think it would be very hard and that things could never again be exactly as they used to be. I also tend to think that since the gods originally fell due largely to being too attached to their own power, that willingly surrendering the precept may be necessary in order to truly repent. In doing so the god could give stewardship to someone else, who could be of a different alignment. Bhall could give the precept of fire to Brigit, but the other evil gods' archangels are just as evil as they are so they would have to find someone else, someone might not have the best interests of the precept at heart, maybe even a mortal. Although Cernunnos was a loyal servant of Succelus, the sphere of Nature was significantly changed when it got a new god. It is more violent than it used to be, perhaps because Cernunnos was left rather disillusioned when Agares killed his son, and since he has seen the evils he would be capable of were he to fall (since Hyborem is a duplicate of him). Plus, he never was as patient as his maker.


The Fire sphere used to be very hard to manipulate since Bhall and all angels of fire were supremely good, but since she fell and many of her angels did not the sphere doesn't have much allegiance to an alignment. It is frequently still used for good, although in such cases it can get out of control and lead to evil. Some might argue that Bhall's unwillingness to kill Brigit means that there is still some god in the goddess, which may better explain the ability of fire to still be used for good better than just having some non-evil agels of fire would.

where do worshipers of the overlords end up?

They all go to the great city R'lyeh at the bottom of the Ocean, and are lorded over by Cthulhu


Seriously though ... I think this thread is important enough to get stickied in the Lore-subforum

I second the sticky request.

Sticky! Sticky!

Maybe instead of just making this a sticky, make a "Lore Index" of some sorts with links to this, the Bestiary, and maybe some other threads, and sticky that? (PM a moderator to have it stickied?)

So what happens to any council of esus members, are they sent to Esus private hell? I mean they do worship him in a sense, more along the lines of his philosophies than a religion but still.

I would imaging the the most devout would go straight to their god's hell, but that most would be put though the machine like everyone else. Most worshipers of Esus likely revere Mammon too, and might start in his metropolis.

On the other hand, Esus doesn't care for demons as much as most evil gods, and in fact has mostly living creatures serve him in his hell. He might even claim those most loyal to him before they have a chance to die.

Those that truly worship Esus probably live out their life in Esus's vault THINKING THEY ARE ESUS ... and lying to others saying they are Esus and growing to believe their own lie.

So the most devout followers of the Shadow Sphere probably think they are Esus, and then those more for Worshipping Esus than Worshipping the Shadow Sphere are taken as living servants.

Did Mulcarn's banishment from the multiverse have any effect on his vault? And if Ceridwen's Vault may reach to worlds outside the FfH multiverse, wouldn't it be possible that she still has access to the True Heaven or that she could bring back Mulcarn, or that the forces of Evil invaded our universe, get technology far beyond that of Erebus (and, as she would for sure not be restricted to Earth as place of invasion or our universe, beyond OUR momentary technology...) and easily conquering (or if stealing from a universe with that powerful Doomsday Devices, annihilate)Erebus...and then going to invade other worlds:scared::eek::help::run:
Yes, I am quite sure Ceridwen is the settings by far most powerful and dangerous entity since the One left, if not rivaling the One Himself.

Yes, I am quite sure Ceridwen is the settings by far most powerful and dangerous entity since the One left, if not rivaling the One Himself.

If you think of the multiverse of the One as a computer program a video game, for example, you can put it like this: The gods have hackpacks. Ceridwen has programming ability and access to the source code. In a direct fight, any of the gods win against Ceridwen, because they can activate god mode with a push of a button. Ceridwen is too smart for this, however, and so she spends her time replacing the code for "health potion" with the code for "LSD", instead of fighting.

Those that truly worship Esus probably live out their life in Esus's vault THINKING THEY ARE ESUS ... and lying to others saying they are Esus and growing to believe their own lie.

So the most devout followers of the Shadow Sphere probably think they are Esus, and then those more for Worshipping Esus than Worshipping the Shadow Sphere are taken as living servants.

Confirmed in The Splintered Court, I think.