I have posted about how my man-crush on Mehmed before, but after playing a very strong game with him again, I thought it was worthwhile to start another thread.

What I find interesting is that, on paper, nothing about him particularly stands out as stereotypically strong. Financial? nope. Wonderspam? nope. Philosophical? nope. Gamebreaking UU? nope. He should be average, right? Thing is, I NEVER, I mean NEVER, seem to have a bad game with him.

The key? Adaptability. Imo he is extremely, extremely well rounded and can adapt to many situations.

Let's see what he has to offer:

Expansive: Cheap workers, cheap granaries, cheap harbors, +2 health

Organized: Cheap lighthouses, cheap courthouses, cheap factories, civic cost reduction (50% I think...?)

UU: Janissary (musket with bonuses vs. mounted, melee, and archers iirc)

UB: Hammam (aqueduct with +2 :) )

Starting techs: Agriculture and The Wheel (the two most expensive starting techs)

Let's look at the synergies and ability to adapt:

-If you get a coastal start, he is quite strong at going the GLH trade economy route with cheap lighthouses and cheap harbours

-If you get a strong bureaucracy capital, he can research pottery right away and has the health (expansive) and extra happiness (hammam) to drive the population up

-Nothing about him leans more toward CE or SE really. He can easily go in either direction

-City development: With cheap workers, granaries, lighthouses, courthouses, and harbours, Mehmed can get his (especially coastal) cities developed very quickly. This is particularly handy after an initial war or while rexing

-Warmongering: Although not a superb pure rusher, his UB happens to coincide with construction and his reasonably strong UU is nicely placed on the tech tree and happens to be draftable! Very nice for expanding the empire after a run to liberalism

-Industrialization: Although early game bonuses tend to be preferable, Mehmed industrializes quite well with the cheap factories and the bonus health to manage the transition

Overall, a very nicely rounded leader who imo can adapt to many starting locations and maps. In terms of weaknesses, I would say he is not a strong pure rusher and he does not have one of the strongest economic traits, which can help in the higher levels (e.g., financial, philosophical, etc.). However, overall, his well-roundedness I think makes him a very competitive leader.

Hmmm....I might just give this man a go!
Now if he can only be swayed to Christianity...;)

My favorite leader.

The Expansive + his UB have great synergy. The UB by itself is very good with +2 happiness.

If you have a tech lead then Janissaries are awesome.

I agree with everything you say (aside from the man-crush thing)!

Although it goes beyond Mehmed, it's the Organized trait that makes leaders like him excel.....

I strongly disagree with the notion that mehemed doesn't have a gamebreaking UU, that said i find the other ottoman leader sulleiman, quite a lot better...

I strongly disagree with the notion that mehemed doesn't have a gamebreaking UU, that said i find the other ottoman leader sulleiman, quite a lot better...

I gotta agree with the OP that Mehmed strong.

Mehmed has 5 fast buildings plus the faster worker

Suleiman has 1 which is pretty late plus the faster settlers.


Suleiman is built strictly for conquest while Mehmed is much more balanced throughtout the entire game.

This does NOT mean Suleiman is weak, he is a powerhouse in his won right. I just think Mehmed is more balanced.

Mehmed is quite a balanced leader, although I still think Elizabeth is better (Phi and Fin) becuase those traits are usually what economies are based on (specialists vs. cottage). I think the Ottoman UU and UB are better than the English, though.

Let's not forget that Mehmed has a beard and those rock :p

Yeah but Suleiman's beard is far more impressive, in fact only Hammurabi's is superior.

EDIT: Gilgamesh's is pretty cool as well, with the dreads. Hannibal "I want to be George Michael" has the worst.

I think Jans are a very solid UU, but I wouldn't say it is game-breaking in the way that war chariots, praets, and quechuas are.

Mehmed is a very solid leader... but I find he suffers a little in a direct comparison to Julius Caesar. Both have the pleasant combination of Organised and a trait that saves hammers early on during expansion.
Mehmed's prime advantage is better growth caps... which I don't find as relevant when coupled with traits that encourage many rather than big cities. Not enough to willingly forgo Praetorians, even though Janissaries are quite powerful in their own right.

Mehmed is probably my favorite leader.

Yeah but Suleiman's beard is far more impressive, in fact only Hammurabi's is superior.

EDIT: Gilgamesh's is pretty cool as well, with the dreads. Hannibal "I want to be George Michael" has the worst.

Mehmet is my second-favorite leader, but Hannibal is my first (and I always found he looked much more like St Chuck Norris), even though a Jan beeline is SO much more fun than Numidians.

Mehmed is a solid leader that can let you win on any kind of map. His unique building is simply fantastic, his traits are great for REX-maniacs and he gets so many cheap buildings that infrastructure rarely is a problem! Really, cheap granaries and courthouses are a perfect couple.

I've been thinking of playing a game with Mehmed where I will build the Great Wall, REX like mad and then use my (overwhelming?) amount of espionage points to pull me through the tech-hole early on and later on to get the edge on techs and in warfare. The EP should be easy once you got a lot of cities: get a granary up, get the pop needed to whip that courthouse and then run two spy specialists as soon as you can. Settled great spies and great spies you use for missions should make it a cakewalk to steal techs.

But that's what I want to try ;)

Mehmed is a solid leader that can let you win on any kind of map. His unique building is simply fantastic, his traits are great for REX-maniacs and he gets so many cheap buildings that infrastructure rarely is a problem! Really, cheap granaries and courthouses are a perfect couple.

I've been thinking of playing a game with Mehmed where I will build the Great Wall, REX like mad and then use my (overwhelming?) amount of espionage points to pull me through the tech-hole early on and later on to get the edge on techs and in warfare. The EP should be easy once you got a lot of cities: get a granary up, get the pop needed to whip that courthouse and then run two spy specialists as soon as you can. Settled great spies and great spies you use for missions should make it a cakewalk to steal techs.

But that's what I want to try ;)

Didn't someone do this already? Wasn't there a "Great Wall of Suleiman" Thread somewhere?

That would be Suleiman and not Mehmed, and I have not seen nor read this thread :)

Suleiman is great at expanding fast and with his philosophical trait he can spam GP's early on real fast, get the edge on his neighbours and take them out. Mehmed is an all-rounder and is hard to get out of the game.

Mehmet is my second-favorite leader, but Hannibal is my first (and I always found he looked much more like St Chuck Norris), even though a Jan beeline is SO much more fun than Numidians.

You think George Miichael looks like Chuck Norris? Wait, aren't you a member of the NYPD? You're not from that George Michael vid are you ;)

You think George Miichael looks like Chuck Norris? Wait, aren't you a member of the NYPD? You're not from that George Michael vid are you ;)

Negative. Hannibal looks like Chuck Norris (and v.v), and judging by his appearance on the Catherine Tate show GM just looks very sad. Now Stop trying to shift the paradigm. :)

You think George Miichael looks like Chuck Norris? Wait, aren't you a member of the NYPD? You're not from that George Michael vid are you ;)

Wait, are we talking about Arrested Development or something else?

Wait, are we talking about Arrested Development or something else?

How the heck am I supposed to know? :)

I'm going to drink a beer; get back to me later when you guys figure it out. :D

I discovered how powerful Mehmed is in the PYL: Watery Map game. No one wanted to play him, and in fact, some questioned if he belonged with the likes of Hannibal, Willy, and Rags. He is a tad slower to get the GLH, but I gotta say, once he gets that wonder down, he is EASILY one of the top leaders to exploit its strength.

The GLH based TRE is a bit different from "normal" economic systems. The Harbor is the key building. My build order for REXed cities in the TRE is Monument-Granary-Harbor. The Harbor is stronger than the Courthouse or the Market if you have a couple other-landmass cities, even if every TR you have is internal.

I will say this though, I am currently playing a Big and Small with Sulieman, and he is also VERY strong. Of course, I had stone in the BFC, a large area to REX, and Marble on an island next to my cap, so I was able to go for an Obsolete style WE-SSE, and Sulie is just a monster in that situation. I was on the "small" with JC, and he tried to attack me (of course), and I got 3 GGs out of 4 battles. Then I founded Confu, spread it to JC, and he and I were best buds the rest of the game, with me feeding him techs and such. Not since a particularly strong game with Willy have I had an easier time on Emp with my beloved "Great Wonder GLH Based TRE" style.

Versatility is a great thing.

Sometimes I'll fire up a game and have everything about the map be totally random (except size, I love playing HUGE with many civs out there). The next time I do that I will select Mehmed.

Another leader I find very versatile is Sury, which futurehermit also started a thread for awhile back. Free border pops and half priced granaries bring new cities online quite fast. His UB is fantastic as :food: can be used for anything - Specialists, working tiles, or whipping. When I play him though, I unfortunately have to tell myself I'm playing a civ without a UU.

EDIT: Just to add, I find CRE, like ORG, to be great on watery maps. Oftentimes island cites, unlike continent cites, cannot be settled right next to food (seafood in this case). Fast border pops to grab seafood means the city can immediately build a granary and harbor as its first two builds. These cities often have no trees to chop a monument, and ferrying missionaries in galleys crowded with workers, settlers, and garrisons can be cumbersome.

Sury is a good leader as well and is a better pure rusher than Mehmed.

Although it goes beyond Mehmed, it's the Organized trait that makes leaders like him excel.....

Organized is one of the best (if not the best) economic trait in the game. Think about:

All of your early junk cities can whip courthouse for 2 pops allowing faster REX, lowered civic upkeep allows faster REX, really, the biggest limiting factor for REX is the early commerce and Organized is so strong for land grabbing.

If you have a man-crush on Mehmed, give Asoka a try (besides Fred, Zara). Fast workers+Organized+Spiritual is an awesome combo gives you superior "economic" bonus. It might sound wierd if any one develops a man-crush on Asoka though...

Mehmed is good, Sillyman is better. I like starting with Ag and Wheel.

Still think Liz is better than both though. And as for Inca :)

hannibal would eat mehmed for breakfast

The Janissary are absolutely amazing. You can get gunpowder very early if you plan your bulbing right (before the AD's), and Jannies against anything not gunpowder is murder. ASAP teching to cannons after means you have won.
The Hammam is also quite strong.

hannibal would eat mehmed for breakfast

Shouldn't that be "Cannibal would eat Mehmed for breakfast"? :)

I tried Memhed for the first time recently, having read an article on him. As the OP says, he hasn't any particular stand out features, but as an all round leader...'Wow'.

The Hammam is becoming my new favourite UB. Coupled with Expansive, my cities are 15-17 pop in the medieval peroid when I normally max out at 10-12 tops.

Forget about Lib, beeline Gunpowder directly, and send in the boys against Longbows (okay, this is on Monarch).

I still think the King is Huyana Capac, but Memhed is running him close.

I am a huge fan of Mehmed and Ottomans, I love the UU and UB, but I suck big time even on noble :D

I read many articles on SE CE I read the war academy articles many times but it seems I cannot pull off this thing :D

I have no problems on warlord thou :P

BTW his beard is really impressive, I also like his background music when you open the relations screen... also I love Izzy's music... Oh and Hannibal...

Where can I find those music files?

Does anyone have as many cheap [useful] buildings? Zara maybe? He's also a really strong leader; probably a better UU, not as good UB. Add me to the pool of ORG lovers, and EXP lovers for that matter. ORG and EXP are two traits that seem like they have synergy with most other traits that get thrown my way.

as organised is what i consider the strongest trait ever, mehmed is what i consider one of the strongest leaders naturally.
but i do not like expansive much, and i had not succeded in leveraging his UU - i'd suggest you need to forget lib race and beeline gunpowder instead, and then conquer all those liberalisic weaklings.
And still Jan's would require trebs to be successfull city raiders - so it would be no much better than maces.

however, i played only 1 game with him - maybe it's just my poor experience

It seems that the UU would be fantastic if you can somehow get nationalism and gunpowder before most AIs get gunpowder.

I guess doing the lib race, getting nationalism, and hand-researching gunpowder might be doable, but maybe trading for nationalism is better? If you are first to gunpowder you can at least start building the UU even if you can't trade for it yet...

It seems that the UU would be fantastic if you can somehow get nationalism and gunpowder before most AIs get gunpowder.

I guess doing the lib race, getting nationalism, and hand-researching gunpowder might be doable, but maybe trading for nationalism is better? If you are first to gunpowder you can at least start building the UU even if you can't trade for it yet...

You can have gunpowder in the BCs. Both nationalism and gunpowder is probably impossible though.

Mehmed is all about Big Cities .. and with cheap courthouses, you can have a large empire with lots of 'em.

My experience with Mehmed is that he needs to avoid war for the first part of the game while growing like crazy, horizontally and vertically. He needs to avoid getting hemmed in and keep the warmongers off his back until his advantages assert themselves.

Mehmet is really good at setting up new cities particularly on water based maps. To get a little island city with a single seafood established just send a settler, missionary and a workboat. The cheap buildings make this a breeze compared with other leaders, as soon as you grow to size 2 whip the granary, then regrow to size 2 again and whip the lighthouse and then regrow to size 2 again and if you've been running OR there will soon be enough hammers from the overflows invested the courthouse for another 1 pop whip.

So all the essential infrastructure is installed at the cost of 3 pop and the rest of the food can be used for growth and the city can be used as a) a commerce source by working coastal tiles and trade routes (GLH and Colossus are great), b) as a whipping / drafting city with forge, drydock and barrack, or c) as specialist city providing GPPs and Rep beakers. No other leader can get through the first 3 buildings quicker or more efficiently than Mehmet and he does surprisingly well on an archipelago map for that reason.

I was on the "small" with JC, and he tried to attack me (of course), and I got 3 GGs out of 4 battles. Then I founded Confu, spread it to JC, and he and I were best buds the rest of the game, with me feeding him techs and such. Not since a particularly strong game with Willy have I had an easier time on Emp with my beloved "Great Wonder GLH Based TRE" style.

Bleys -

Some questions for you:

What year did you finish researching CoL? That seems to be an awful lot of fighting to earn 3 GG's that early in the game. I'm assuming you researched CoL and didn't get it via the Oracle, right?

How many units were you fighting with? And, what level was this game?

I'm asking these questions to try to get a more detailed mental picture of how your game evolved. Do you possibly have a save of the game at this point in time that you could provide?

Mehmet is the best

Try chopping the granary.

If you grow then whip (such as at size 1), you should grow halfway to size n+2, so that costs 2*(10+n)+10+n=3*(10+n).
If you chop and meet the additional hammers by halfway to size n+1, that costs 10+n food.
Step by step:
Phase 1 (10+n food)
Whipping: 10+n
Chopping: 10+n granary built
Phase 2 (20+2n food)
Whipping: Size n+1, 0 food
Chopping: Size n+1, 10+(n+1) food
Phase 3 (30+3n food)
Whipping: Size n, 10+n food
Chopping: Size n+2, 10+(n+2) food

End result, that chop (+ 10 extra hammers) ends up making you size 3 (n+2) when the whipped city is size 1. Marvel at the power of expansive granaries.

Try chopping the granary.

If you grow then whip (such as at size 1), you should grow halfway to size n+2, so that costs 2*(10+n)+10+n=3*(10+n).
If you chop and meet the additional hammers by halfway to size n+1, that costs 10+n food.
Step by step:
Phase 1 (10+n food)
Whipping: 10+n
Chopping: 10+n granary built
Phase 2 (20+2n food)
Whipping: Size n+1, 0 food
Chopping: Size n+1, 10+(n+1) food
Phase 3 (30+3n food)
Whipping: Size n, 10+n food
Chopping: Size n+2, 10+(n+2) food

End result, that chop (+ 10 extra hammers) ends up making you size 3 (n+2) when the whipped city is size 1. Marvel at the power of expansive granaries.

Huh? :confused:

Huh? :confused:

Short summary: Chopping expansive granaries is good :goodjob:

Short summary: Chopping expansive granaries is good :goodjob:

Thank you for translating for the Liberal Arts Majors. :D

Hi. I recently moved up to Monarch. Never played a game through on that difficulty level until I choses Mehmed. I'm in the 18th century right now and I have a 1000 point lead on #2! I don't remember doing this good on Prince.

Huh? :confused:

If you chop instead of grow, you save one full size of city growth, which translates to two sizes of city growth with a granary.

You can have gunpowder in the BCs. Both nationalism and gunpowder is probably impossible though.

What you do is get gunpowder, first, and start building the janissaries(and slaving some possibly, in high food cities with little production, keep the unhappiness counter low though).

Then you can get nationalism next, for a surge in army size for right when you are about to attack.

Nationalism and drafting tends to hurt your economy/production, both because you have more unhappiness and less population, but also because you have to switch away from bureaucracy(which is often the civic of choice for beelining gunpowder and nationalism).

Hence, you net more research/production if first you build janissaries normally, then you draft your cities down, instead of building while drafting.

Of course moderate drafting + producing beats just producing. But out of the 2 quicker options, the best for overwhelming foes with Janissaries is:

build then fast draft.

as opposed to

fast draft while build.



Maybe you'll have the luxury of having enough time to build, then slow draft + build, then fast draft. But often not. If you do have that luxury do slowdraft + production until shortly before you start your conquering of the world.


The fast draft may start, or finish (much better), just when the opponents start to get units to counter the Janissaries. But a small amount of counters won't be enough, and you'll mostly fight the less advanced armies that you get +25% against. Musketmen don't even 'counter' Janissaries, so you could continue drafting them as a strong unit until someone gets military science, steel, or rifling (of course you'll be heading towards one of those techs also).

Short summary: Chopping expansive granaries is good :goodjob:

chopping normal granaries is good too though, no :p

Sometimes I find it not too necessary to chop expansive granaries, because the city doesn't have more good tiles to work beyond the 1st or 2nd. So growing to 3-4 fast doesn't help especially much.

But the problem with whipping non-expansive granaries is you tend to have to spend time working subpar tiles (while you are size 3 waiting to get halfway done with the granary for a 1 pop whip, or waiting to get to size 4 for a 2 pop whip). So chopping non-expansive granaries is much more important.

chopping granaries is always good imo.

chopping granaries is always good imo.

I'll whip them if I'm at the happy cap, otherwise, I agree.

EXP is better than I first thought when I started playing CIV4. Even though it's a hammers only bonus, working a forested plains hill when building a worker first saved some 6-7 turns (EPIC speed) over working a 3 food tile. The bonus to workers is a nice edge, let alone granaries.

In another game I was NOT EXP and settled a spectacular floodplain city as my second city before I counted up how much :yuck: I would have. Could have used the immediate health on that one.

I'll chip in on this and say he's always been a favourite of mine too.

Great traits. All those cheap buildings which are built almost everywhere. Great UU and UB.

No one else ever seems interested in playing him though. I couldn't get any love for him when trying to set up Monarch Student III, but imo he's definitely one of the strongest leaders in the game.

You've always got a chance when you play him.

I'm not really that keen on the beard tho.

I've been playing Mehmed for a few weeks (huge, marathon, warlord/noble, tectonics, 60% water, better bts AI). He's definitely very versatile. The extra happiness from Hamman's and the cheap courthouses mean that if you can survive into the middle ages, you can easily catapult forward. (My last warlord game, I had about 3x the production capacity and military might of the next civ.)

The UU is only so-so. Grenadiers tend to rip up the Jans, but it can be good if you beeline for Jans faster then your opponent brings Grenadiers online. It's not something that I depend on, but I'm more of a builder rather then a warmonger during the first half of the game.

Currently trying out a game where I started isolated with Tokugawa, took me a while to take over his 4 cities and now I have the entire continent to myself. However, I started out a long ways away from copper and had some other false starts - so I'm waiting to see whether Mehmed's mid-game strength can pull me back into the running.

I think Mehmed is a good choice for folks who want to walk the line between warring and building. I can push the empire in either direction.

Janisarries aren't meant to fight grenadiers. Ideally, you'll be using them against pikes, maces, knights, longbows and crossbows.

What do most people use as a promotion line with Jannisaries?

I'm going to guess CI, Cover to go after Longbows as the dominant defender of the time....

Does anyone see value in going for First Strike Promotions? I admit I don't fully understand them, but I thought they could be quite powerfull if you make it down the line, and if you are the dominant unit in a battle.

Sarge:gp:

Drill would be awesome on Janissaries if you can get up to at least D3, but D1 and D2 are pretty weak that it won't work great. Probably worth it to promote a few along the drill line.

I generally just go up the combat line until march becomes available.

A good few of my janissaries get the combat + pinch combo, especially if the enemy are near to Gunpowder, others try to get combat 3 + march (and by that time they are usually upgraded to rifles) and maybe 30% get the CG promotions, they make great city and fort defenders. Most of my janissaries are drafted with theocracy so they only start with 2 exp but have little difficulty in earning their own promotions.

I'm playing Suleiman now. Just got my Jans, running Theocracy, so they come with 5XP. Just got nationalism, so I'll start drafting some as well. So far, I've just been going C1, with a combo of C2 or cover for second promotion. Nobody else is near gunpowder, so I'm hoping I'll be able to take out at least 2 or 3 opponents, if I can.

Or, at least I want to get through Carthage and grab the Holy Roman capital. 3 Golds, and a shrine for the religion for all 4 people on my landmass.

All the leaders with many discounted buildings are very strong imo.

Sury, Zara, Mehmed.

Mehmed also has a great UU and a great UB which makes him an altogether excellent leader.

Mehmed/Ottoman is my favorite default leader/Civ combo. Very strong and very flexible. Jans are very flexible as well. A stack of Jans usually has a couple promoted up the Drill line to Drill IV and a couple more with Combat/Formation (all for stack defense). The base stack gets promoted up the Combat line.

Let's not forget that Mehmed has a beard and those rock :p

A leader with no hair on his face, is nothing but a public disgrace :lol:

As for his game-related strenths, i'd say the janny can win your medieval war for you, if timed correctly.
Promotions should always be spread. I mean, some Combat, some Drill, some even Hills or Forest for the protection of your SoD.
Or maybe i'm just talking out of my arse, because i've just played him once and won easily on monarch :D
In hindsight, i guess the most important feature is all the cheap buildings, which fit my playing style (REX). It meant all the crappy new cities were up to spec in no-time.
Overall good leader, well suited for all kinds of starts, maps and VC's.

I sometimes beeline liberalism to grab gunpowder if my tech rate is good (on noble of course :)) then build enough jannissaries to rule the world :)

seriously if I wasnt a huge fan of mehmed I would probably whine about how overpowered the jannissaries were :)

I sometimes beeline liberalism to grab gunpowder if my tech rate is good (on noble of course :)) then build enough jannissaries to rule the world :)
Try going for Steel from Lib, then self-teching through Nationalism, and build cannons while you draft Jann's. Thats usually the signal for Game Over when I play the Ottomans, either one.

Try going for Steel from Lib, then self-teching through Nationalism, and build cannons while you draft Jann's. Thats usually the signal for Game Over when I play the Ottomans, either one.

If you already have a lead, that works great. Otherwise, it's usually better to self-tech gunpowder, then use Lib to grab nationalism to draft like crazy. Then you only need a slight lead (ie. the AI you're killing to not have gunpowder) to walk over people. A few catapults and trebuchets beforehand and it's pretty easy. Only a problem against cities with castles on a hill, where it take a while to widdle away the defenses.

If you already have a lead, that works great.
Works just fine if your behind too. Of course, it takes work, you need to be generating GScientists to bulb the Lib path as you tech the Chemistry path, but Gunpowder is on the way. The AIs rarely take a big interest in the Lib line unless they get a hold of Philo or Paper. Control those and Steel from Lib is a cinch, even if your in dead last. I know it works very well on Emperor, and I am pretty sure I can get there on Immortal more often than not.

Try going for Steel from Lib, then self-teching through Nationalism, and build cannons while you draft Jann's. Thats usually the signal for Game Over when I play the Ottomans, either one.

hmmm nice... cannon with jannissaries...

But I dont go nationhood and draft, I never tried drafting, maybe once or twice, instead I build military academy along with heroic epic, along with representation and I can pump out jannissaries in 1 or 2 turns... but I am not sure it is as efficient as drafting from a city with globe theater...

Drafting is very powerful with janissaries. It takes too long to build them normally and to also build the seige to support them. To get an army quickly and exploit their window of opportunity I draft a janissary and whip the trebuchet / cannon to support them once every 10 turns from most cities. That requires about 3 pop and so you need enough food to grow a pop every 3 turns and a few farms will do that.

The technique I use with Ottomans is to build 2 or 3 small cities specifically for drafting and whipping, they only need several farms and a granary and barracks and never really need to grow very big. A forge helps with both whipping and happiness. If you found the whipping / drafting cities when Civil Service allows chain irrigation they don't need to use prime land or be on a river.

I dont war often, if an AI dows me or drives me insane so I wage war to wipe them out... but I need to experience this drafting thing :D

The Jan window can also be maximized by pre-building a lot of siege. Trebs upgrade to cannons pretty cheaply, OR you can just spam catapults and use those for bombardment/minor collateral (it doesn't take much to give your jans an edge).

Drafting can definitely amass forces more rapidly as well.

Happiness is a Globe Theater city with 3+ high food tiles and bio farms. (Drafting down from the health cap every 1 or 2 turns? Priceless!)

Try chopping the granary.

If you grow then whip (such as at size 1), you should grow halfway to size n+2, so that costs 2*(10+n)+10+n=3*(10+n).
If you chop and meet the additional hammers by halfway to size n+1, that costs 10+n food.
Step by step:
Phase 1 (10+n food)
Whipping: 10+n
Chopping: 10+n granary built
Phase 2 (20+2n food)
Whipping: Size n+1, 0 food
Chopping: Size n+1, 10+(n+1) food
Phase 3 (30+3n food)
Whipping: Size n, 10+n food
Chopping: Size n+2, 10+(n+2) food

End result, that chop (+ 10 extra hammers) ends up making you size 3 (n+2) when the whipped city is size 1. Marvel at the power of expansive granaries.


Thank you very much, that is very useful. And bless you for the last line, otherwise I'd go "Huh?" as well :goodjob: