Welcome to my latest Role Play Challenge, the Return of Peter the Russian Spy! These games are meant to be entertaining a educational with a unique twist on our beloved leaders and/or history as only a Mad Scientist can view them! :lol:

Here we are trying one more time to run an Espionage Economy (EE) using Peter the Great of Russia and getting most of our research via the espionage slider. But not all! As you may recall I tried this RPC two earlier times, the first we were overrun by the Zulu army (Curse Shaka!) and the second we ended up in an unwinnable situation after diplomacy caved in. Here I hope to do better as I have a much better understanding of the EE!

Game Settings!

Big/Little Map
Low shoreline with medium continents (hopefully we have at least 2 AIs on our land mass)
Monarch difficulty and marathon speed

RULES!

1) We must make all attempts to get the Great Wall!
2) Great Spies can only be used for Scotland yards.
3) Other Great People we inadvertantly get may be used anyway.
4) We are allows to run any specialists we want although we certainly do want to focus on spies when possible. Thus we can run either cottages or farms. However, caste system is disallowed to avoid a real SE game.
5) We have the science slider at maximum until alphabet which we must somewhat beeline. After alphabet science and espionage shopuld be equal.
6) Once we get Code of Laws we have to turn the science slider completely off and maximize espionage.
7) Last, constitution/democracy/communism MUST be beelined.

There you have it, let's see if the third time is a charm.

Our leader

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIII0000.jpg

And the map

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIstart0000.jpg

Well, not the best start ever?! How do we proceed here?

My first thought is to settle 1 spot south to get the deer but that loses forrest and a hill plus get's us 1 tundra? Maybe better to settle in palce.

Techpath, if we do not move I say either fishing or AH followed by the other. Then BW/archery/Masonry, that' 5techs techs until we can hit the Great Wall.

Kind of contradictory rules. If the slider is off, you steal what you can (aka how are you going to beeline anything after CoL :rolleyes:.

Paranoia is over. So I'm back. Ah but, this doesn't look like a super bureaucracy capitol site. In test games, I've found that bureaucracy + SY is completely ridiculous.

I wish were were allowed to settle even more spies there though. Oh well. I'll make do since it's on monarch.

Edit: I suggest 1S btw.

Straight Fishing, AH, Masonry. Get an early settler out, then the wall/BW. Move on from there depending on surroundings. That's a pretty guaranteed GW.

Where is this "palce" you seem to mention settling?

No, seriously, good luck, this variant really looks difficult. Was fun being in on the Paranoia btw, I hope you got inspired to joining in on the DI V, or the next Intervention at least.

Where is this "palce" you seem to mention settling?

No, seriously, good luck, this variant really looks difficult. Was fun being in on the Paranoia btw, I hope you got inspired to joining in on the DI V, or the next Intervention at least.

Difficult my foot ;).

To 1 AD.

I unlock He early :rolleyes:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/3595hutsunlockHE0000.jpg

I hate huts. Oh well. -1 thing that takes skill this game then.

Settled 1S as I described. Marathon turns screw with me pretty good, but hell, it's not COMPLETELY different. So, even though my worker sits in place for a while, no tears are shed. The AI does that routinely by moving around stupidly so it won't hurt.

2nd city:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/24802ndcity0000.jpg

And the wall as promised:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/2110Gwall0000.jpg

I go worker techs, pottery/writing, monarchy, alphabet, CoL, slider off.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/380BCalphaandcol0000.jpg

Alpha and CoL in 380 BC. The reason I went monarchy is that on this difficulty, the AIs get it ultra slowly and I don't want to suffer massive economic breakdown due to AI suckage. Eat that AI. Sure enough, I was able to trade it to 3 AIs...:/.

I settled on techwhorestealing off Zara. He seems to be teching very well, probably because he has his own island non-isolation. This is very good for me:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/80BCtakephiloandMC0000.jpg

I easily have enough EP to steal both of those, and while sailing over water may seem a pain at first, it isn't. Of course I have shown galley logistics before, even in mad's RPCS...so this is nothing new. It actually helps doubly because I can traverse straight to his cities without any chances of being caught.

In order to get alpha/CoL reasonably while rexing I was running scientists off libraries. Unfortunately after my initial spy I got 2 GS's which I settled. They've absolutely useless as academies. Maybe I should have saved for bulbing. Oh well. At least it's 2 hammers/turn in the capitol. I DO have a SY in the cap.

Only wonder is Gwall. I have monarchy and cottages and a lot of room so I will probably have little trouble EP raping the AI for the rest of the game.

10 cities @ 1 AD:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/1ADnorth0000.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/1ADsouth0000.jpg

Techs:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/Pure%20Espionage/1ADtech0000.jpg

As zara techs useful things I'll probably go medieval on Kublai. I have the hammers and size for it and he's the only credible threat on the map. I can probably drag him into war with someone else first. Next segment, if/when I get around with it, will be setting up axes at that choke point and filling in to my eventual 15+ cities. Hopefully Zara techs CS soon. He was just finishing up aesthetics and I can already steal more EP worth than I stole form him with philo/MC.

Oh yeah. I could have settled on Zara's land and blocked him considerably. I deliberately avoided doing this, his land sucks. Might as well keep him somewhat peaceful.

EP isn't hard. It's ok at first and overpowering later.

The Return of the Russian Spy: Part I

welll MIT may be right and it may be easy but we shall see (No, I did not look at his spoilers).

We start by settling in place as nowhere looked any better and I will trust the random map generator.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0000.jpg

Our tech path went: Fishing/Archery/AH/Wheel start mysticism.

The build orders were: scout/WB (whipped)/warrior/archer/archer/Great Wall

Our scouting efforts were exceptional, nabbing us 255 gold, a map, fishing AND

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0001.jpg

SWEET!

And the bigger question, do we have access to copper

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0002.jpg

Yes we do, in a pretty decent location!

We then meet two leaders

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0004.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0005.jpg

Not the best and not the worst. Good techers but not great. Perhaps we can find a better techer to steal from. Zara looks to be overseas but close (NE) and Kublai is connected by land (I saw a scout) but likely far away.

After AH we find

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0006.jpg

Horses in the BFC! Cossacks for sure!

And after chopping only 2 forrests

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0007.jpg

So we are free from Barbs and only 75 turns from the first GSpy!

A more fuller map

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIA0008.jpg

Lot's of land to settler and establish a strong EE game. All that really matters is how far away Kublai is and whether we need to stretch out the empire early to block the NW lands off. That Northern penninsula leads nowhere, so it's just the NW area, probably one well placed city would do the trick!

Techs, I am looking at

Mysticism
Agriculture
Pottery
Sailing
writing

Then alphabet, followed by the fastest CoL beeline.

putting a city on the plains square 1S of the fish should block off that whole area for you, the problem is you would have to delay some great city sites near your start.
I think I'd be inclined to settle the blocking city 3rd/4th

you're confident of being able to steal enough techs to get cosscks then?

this is, as TMIT said, quite an easy one, but after the hell we put you through in paranoia, you deserve an easy RPC.

I think you should settle the blocking city ASAP. The AI has an annoying habit of settling in your lands very quickly.

@TMIT
Why do you promote your scout along the combat line? I prefer Woodsman, for the double movement in forests/jungles and you will be defending anyway (often in woods).

i'd rather place it 2s1e of the fish (2e from Cow) ... it'll still block decently enough when first border pops, and it gains the clams, thereby becoming a decent GP Farm short-mid term (fish,clam,cow).

@TMIT
Why do you promote your scout along the combat line? I prefer Woodsman, for the double movement in forests/jungles and you will be defending anyway (often in woods).

So often it isn't the case. I get angry when I explore along coasts and my unit with woodsman or guerrilla dies on flatland. With combat it's pretty safe regardless (though not really, I lost it anyway because the RNG fing hates me when it comes to barbs). I don't really care for scouts after the first couple turns though. They got nothin' that lets them survive even warriors consistently after all.

I'm not sure how KK got his cities near my so quickly in my game. I'll be interested when the game is over how that was accomplished. I think his cap is much further north...he easily became the biggest civ...a little bigger than me even although I removed that advantage to him in the next segment I haven't posted yet (been busy).

@ Mad

You beat me to the great wall by 12 turns :p. I got a 2nd city first though. I'm interested to see which plays out better in your next couple of turns...I had an idle worker for some time as a result (not used to marathon) but the production from an extra city earlier might overcome that somewhat. Particularly interesting because you're coming out with your settler now, so it's REALLY a question of order.

i'd rather place it 2s1e of the fish (2e from Cow) ... it'll still block decently enough when first border pops, and it gains the clams, thereby becoming a decent GP Farm short-mid term (fish,clam,cow).

Not a bad idea...wish i'd thought of it.

@TMIT
you allready placed your city there ... you could just argue that you might have tried to little to pump it for the seafood titles

Oh crap you're right



I was thinking of something else. I wanted that fish tile, and acknowledging that KK was going to settle it soon, tried to get there first. He beat me with that city to the W of the cows by a few turns though so I had to take the less aggressive placement :(.

Remember, every city you claim instead of the AI is one less you have to take later...this time I came up a little short. I don't think it will matter here though because this is a very generous map.

@TMIT

I calculate the odds of winning with a healthy scout without fortification bonus versus a healthy animal at monarch difficulty (for the difficulty dependent bonus). It turns out C2 is not a bad choice indeed, though it depends what you want.

Versus Wolf

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 99/100/100/100
W1: 99/100/100/100
G1: 99/100/100/100
C1: 100/100/100/100
W2: 99/100/100/100
G2: 99/100/100/100
C2: 100/100/100/100
W1G1: 99/100/100/100
W1C1: 100/100/100/100
G1C1: 100/100/100/100

Versus Lion/Panther

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 68/74/79/90
W1: 68/74/89/95
G1: 68/78/79/95
C1: 71/76/88/91
W2: 68/74/96/97
G2: 68/90/79/97
C2: 73/78/89/95
W1G1: 68/78/89/96
W1C1: 71/76/90/96
G1C1: 71/80/88/96

Versus Bear

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 21/26/31/37
W1: 21/26/36/65
G1: 21/30/31/65
C1: 23/28/34/63
W2: 21/26/66/71
G2: 21/37/31/71
C2: 25/30/36/65
W1G1: 21/30/36/69
W1C1: 23/28/50/67
G1C1: 23/32/34/67


Conclusions: Versus a Wolf you nearly always win anyway, versus Lions/Panthers there are not big differences except that G2 works much better on unforested hills, but much worse on unhilled forests (and W2 is really good there). Remains against Bears, here there are not that many differences, but W2 shines on flat forests (W1C1 is right at the jump cut, so only picks half of it). In total I think these odds, if they give an advantage, give it to W2. With the extra movement, I'll stick to W2.

Note that which is best is difficulty dependent as the difficulty bonus puts the famous "jumps" in the odds at different spots, so some may or may not cross such a jump after changing the difficulty. For example that is why W1 does almost nothing on flat forested squares vs. a Bear, while W2 nearly doubles the winning odds. At a different difficulty W1 might be very important, while W2 does nearly nothing extra.

These odds are calculated incorporating the 20% bonus to animals from Monarch difficulty, the terrain bonuses, the bonuses from the appropriate promotions and the bonus scouts get versus animals. (Note that the difficulty bonus implies scouts on flat terrain have more than 50% odds against Lions).


PS If anyone knows how to do tables on these forums I'd love to hear how.

@TMIT

I calculate the odds of winning with a healthy scout without fortification bonus versus a healthy animal at monarch difficulty (for the difficulty dependent bonus). It turns out C2 is not a bad choice indeed, though it depends what you want.

Versus Wolf

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 73/89/96/99
W1:73/89/99/99
G1: 73/96/96/99
C1: 77/91/97/99
W2: 73/89/99/100
G2: 73/99/96/100
C2: 88/96/99/99
W1G1: 73/96/99/100
W1C1: 77/91/99/99
G1C1: 77/97/97/99

Versus Lion/Panther

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 4/20/28/36
W1: 4/20/35/67
G1: 4/27/28/67
C1: 9/23/31/64
W2: 4/20/68/74
G2: 4/36/28/74
C2: 11/27/35/67
W1G1: 4/27/35/72
W1C1: 9/23/50/69
G1C1: 9/30/31/69

Versus Bear

Promos: Flat/Hill/Forest/ForestHill
No: 0/1/3/9
W1: 0/1/5/12
G1: 0/1/3/12
C1: 0/1/4/11
W2: 0/1/21/26
G2: 0/9/3/26
C2: 1/1/5/12
W1G1: 0/1/5/24
W1C1: 0/1/10/22
G1C1: 0/3/4/22


Conclusions: Versus a Wolf C2 is definitely better as being on a forest already almost ensures a win; versus a Bear you have to be on a forest hill to make any chance, and then W2 is definitely preferred, but still with little hope. Remains against Lions/Panthers: I guess I prefer the 68% odds on a forest and 4% on flatland over 35/11% odds.

Note that this difficulty dependent as the difficulty bonus puts the famous "jumps" in the odds at different spots, so some may or may not cross such a jump after changing the difficulty. For example here C2 is clearly better vs. a Wolf as it crosses a jump on forestless tiles (compared to W2), while W2 does not cross a jump on forested tiles (compared to C2).


PS If anyone knows how to do tables on these forums I'd love to hear how.

How exactly did you come up with those numbers? I'm assuming that you forgot that Scouts get +100% vs. Animals. Thus, an unpromoted scout should have a 50-50 chance against lions and panthers without any terrain or fortification bonuses. (Not the 4% as listed above.)

Terurn of teh Russian Spy: Part II

Moving along on the game, and I do nto want to jinx us but seams like a strong start with possibly an interesting diplomatic setup!. But we shall see.

We start by finishing our settler and sending him off to block off some land, but...

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0000.jpg

Cramps our style a little bit here as I cannot block off the land with one city. So I decided to venture forth a little bit more.

But before that we met AI #3

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0001.jpg

So we got Zara, Gilgamesh, and Kublai.

Now we moved the city further along the penninsula

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0002.jpg

This proved a great move as you will see later.

Tehcpath went: mysticism/pottery/agriculture/sailing/writing/alphabet/priesthood.

The next city we placed close to the capital to generate some needed commerce

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0003.jpg

We then met everyone's favorite Zealot

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0004.jpg

Important NOTE:

Kublai is Hindu and the Hindu founder
Gilgamesh is Jewish and the Judaist founder
Isabella is Buddhist is the Buddhist founder.

We finally generated our first GSpy

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0005.jpg

Which we used for Scottland Yard

We proceeded to get the copper hooked up and got some axes going as I do not want our western cities looking too tempting!

We dropped city #4

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0006.jpg

Which completely blocks off the AI. At the save we still do not have open borders!

Now Kublai and Gilgamesh are right next to each other which set off

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0007.jpg

Good, beat up each other!

We eventually got

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0008.jpg

And the next step is Code of Laws, but Confuscianism has alreayd been founded! Note that Zara is currently Confuscian, and the founder.

So how often does this happen! 4 religions founded by 4 different leaders and here we are with massive amounts of land and no open borders!

We still need to desperately connect western and eastern Russia and I found this screen shot particularly funny

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0009.jpg

Seams like everyonbe wants a road to that Oasis!

So after teching alphabet we look at techs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0010.jpg

And make some trades

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0011.jpg

And do we have iron

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0012.jpg

You bet we do!!!!!! And right in the BFC of St. Petersberg!

A minor trade with Isabella to open up CoL

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0013.jpg

So our espionage slider is at arround 30%, and so is the Science slider. I am NOT rushing CoL and NOT runnning scientists in Moscow as I want another "Untarnished" GSpy for the next Russina espionage city!

We moved a modest stack towards that Annoying Barb city

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0014.jpg

And kept it for city #5.

We saved here, building more military, spies and settlers (or planning to). My feeling is to max out th land and who cares if the espionage slider drops to 10-20%, it will rise eventually and we are getting good espionage from Moscow.

Speaking of espionage, no plan yet and I am evenly distributing eps! I will redirect once we decide who is the tech king, and right now none look too strong.

A view of the land

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0015.jpg

Techs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIB0016.jpg

Metal casting sure looks tempting there!

So there you have it! I think walls and a mixture of units in Rostov and St. Pete incase those Ais get any ideas. But to be honest I think diplomacy should favor us. My biggest concern is noone wants open borders and the techpace stagnates here, but so be it! There is nothing to say we cannot overrun the lands in the middle ages if need be!

Stellar early city locations there, iron and blocking with St. Pete is amazing, you have lots of land, I would prioritize walls in nearly all your cities tbh as they are required for castles which give an espy boost which will be much appreciated I am sure as it is essentially a spy's library(but better) with the 25% esp boost and the additional trade route gives more commerce... which goes back into espy for you. Another point favoring walls is, you have a large area of blocked land and 2 chokepoints, which will not require a large standing army... and by building walls to castles not only gives you espy, but decreases the need for large armies. However you can always go out and conquer like a madman(pun intended), however this map looks like a cakewalk based on your early expansion and the AI religious strife, so an exercise in finesse would be better to read and learn from.

Why don't you just try and steal CoL from Zara? You want an espionage economy after all, and self-researching it will probably take longer.

And I think you should try and found another religion and adopt that as your state religion, just to make the party complete (not sure how you want to do that in espionage economy though, but well).

Very interesting situation here. Four competing religions and rivals who are much more likely to be at each others throats rather than going after you. Time to consolidate your lands, turtle up and let the spies loose on your distracted opponents!

Rostov 1N would have blocked alone after a single border pop :)

futhermore, a city if you can make it 2s of the rice beyond Rostov/St. Pedersborg looks decent as well

Rostov 1N would have blocked alone after a single border pop :)

futhermore, a city if you can make it 2s of the rice beyond Rostov/St. Pedersborg looks decent as well

You are correct about that lone city to block, but it was sort of a fast decision. When I saw the Barb city I decided I wanted it a redid my plans, so I settled more agressively to the west as Kublai was nowhere in sight. I was concerned about production for the city and was very pleased to the iron. Also since Kublai is creative I thought settling two more westernly planted cities would be a good thing so when the eventually got culture pressure they took the brunt and kept the cities protected from them. Also those 2 long penninsulas are great for defenses and the distribution of the 4 religions had no occured yet (or not so obvious).

A sfar as new cities, there are LOT of good sites! And the faster the better.

At this stage, it certainly looks as if Zara will be the best target for espionage. If he is offshore as you suspect (figure the land to the east?) he won't be as much as of a military target compared to Kub or Gil. Plus, with the latter two after each other, Zara (excellent REXer as we all know) might excel more (unless he clashes with Izzy if she's out there with him - how did you meet her?). Furthermore, Zara seems a pretty decent neighbor in most of my games with him if you can stay relatively pleased.

If Zara is out to the east, best watch your eastern shoreline as that Zara will settle like crazy.

The only problem is that you might have trouble trading techs that you steal unless some sort of religious bloc ends up forming.

Although the diplo against the AI will be simpler because of the difference religions, it's a though break espionage-wise, since you'll most likely miss out on the 'same religion' spy bonus allmost every time.

Also, the watertiles to the south of St. Pete, is that sea? It seems that way because of the fish, but ifn't it a bit small? I've seen similar patches of water that were fresh.

Mad, was I playing against you last night or something? Playing a water map as Hannibal with a stacked start and Peter on my island who was wreaking absolute havoc on me with spies. ><

I thought of this game and then killed the SOB with Numidians before he could bring War Elephants to bear (which he did but they died too.)

So yeah. Boo Peter, I hope you lose this one. :spear:

(Just kidding! :D Espionage is obviously something I need to get better at so thank you for these games. I still read the Mao thread every now and then when I need some learnings on the :espionage: stuff.)

:ninja:

Return of the Russian Spy: Part III

I started this segment focusing on getting to Code of Laws and Settling msot of the good lands. By the end we have CoL and a wrecked economy!!!:D

We started by tributing writing to Kublai. Yes it's going to be a suckup game!

I directed all eps to Kublai for a while.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0001.jpg

we met another AI

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0002.jpg

And I started to open borders with teh Ais! So far no ill diplomatic effects.

I started to settle areas that IO expected the Ai to focus on

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0003.jpg

Which effectively blocks off Zara.

Next city claims stone

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0005.jpg

And we stole our FIRST tech from Kublai

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0006.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0007.jpg

Happiness was an issue so we certainly could use this tech. We revolted to HR.

It also opened several trade opportunities

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0008.jpg

We also popped our second GSpy

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0009.jpg

Which we used for scotland yard in Navrogad

We continue to settle along the coast

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0010.jpg

Further stretching our economy.

We next stole

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0011.jpg

From Isabella.

And made a pretty large trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0012.jpg

The next city

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0013.jpg

And then we built an army of swords to take out the remaining Barb cities

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0014.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0015.jpg

And made a trade with Gilgamesh

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0016.jpg

SO I saved here. Yeah a pretty dull segment, but hopefully espionage willt ake off once we get some courthouses established.

The map

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0017.jpg

OK, Zara is smaller than us, let's see where that goes.

Our cities

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0018.jpg

Getting set to whip out some building at the start of next turn.

Espionage still going against KK as I am shooting for Metal Casting for good trade bait.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0019.jpg

And finally techs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIC0020.jpg

SO I am thinking Metal casting and HBR from Kublai and perhaps Fuedalism from Zara as the nexttechs!

So far, our espionage has gotten us

Monarchy
Monotheism

Plus several techs off trades from those stolen techs.

Also I have saved alot of hammers on libraries and invested them in settlers and military.

Now what I really need are some mroe workers. Anyone think by teh last RPC I'll actually learn to build more workers!

Land is power, so you are set to get the great espionage network going. Economy may be in shambles but you know you are going to recover pretty quickly. Right now you are researching currency, but wouldn't it be wiser to divert all espionage point to gilgamesh and steal it :p;)

Not exactly sure what to get next as far as stealing techs. I am researching currency only because I need to research something!

Witht eh espionage game this early I need to be thinging of stealing a tech to trade it arround, thus metal casting will usually get me currency and cash. However, Gilgamesh already has both currency and metal casting so that's not going to work. Zara is the tech leader but without currency at the moment.

Also I would like a little more protection out there as I do not trust KK or Issy.

Right now I am thinking of stealing HBR from KK and station a few Flanking II HSa in those border cities to take out any approaching catapults. Since an attack would be aganist ONE of the cities I can shift HAs back and forth as needed.

Perhaps I do need to direct eps against Gilgamesh for Currency. I do not need libraries but I certainly could use a few markets.

Ok I have a question. The first great spy I always settle for 12 EP and the second one i do scotland yard for.

After 1 GSpy is settled i'm getting 16 EP from capital
After 2 GSpy forms scotland yard i'm getting 32 EP

The way you did it you got 8 EP after making your scotland yard in your capital and latter you made a 2nd scotland yard.

A little background on the way I play. I almost always have a secondary EE going in addition to the main CE going by going after the great wall. However, I never use the slider for the secondary EE this way. With 32 EP points generated in captial after ~300 turns it gets easy to steal techs pre-jail, security bureau, and forgot the third building. So overall my main question is why make scotland yards with both of the GSpys instead of doing a settled/scotland yard combo in the same city.

Ok I have a question. The first great spy I always settle for 12 EP and the second one i do scotland yard for.

After 1 GSpy is settled i'm getting 16 EP from capital
After 2 GSpy forms scotland yard i'm getting 32 EP

The way you did it you got 8 EP after making your scotland yard in your capital and latter you made a 2nd scotland yard.

A little background on the way I play. I almost always have a secondary EE going in addition to the main CE going by going after the great wall. However, I never use the slider for the secondary EE this way. With 32 EP points generated in captial after ~300 turns it gets easy to steal techs pre-jail, security bureau, and forgot the third building. So overall my main question is why make scotland yards with both of the GSpys instead of doing a settled/scotland yard combo in the same city.

Update coming and perhaps it will answer your questions.

I normally play as your described, and the Mao RPC was run that way. Also I have a strategy article (linked in my signature) that goes over it a bit.

NOW, why did I build scotland yard??? Because I plan to generate alot os espionage via the slider, so all that capital commerce turns into eps and the scotland yard builds on that nicely. 100% eps from SY versus 50% from an academy for beakers!

Is this a viable strategy? Well, let's take a look..................

Return of the Russian Spy: Part IV

Well our espionage game is going very nciely as you all shall see. However, the game is rather dry so bear with trades/ep screens and general description. My overall goal is to win this game as peacefully as I can, either via space or diplomacy.

I will summarize all the tech stolen at the end of the segment, for now

we start off with a trade with GW

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0000.jpg

In this game I am not concerned at all about weighting the trade heavily on the AI side. Diplomacy is the key here!

And while I will not show every tech stolen a few key ones we got early

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0001.jpg

And

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0003.jpg

Alowing a better defense and bolstering the economy!


I ended up trading HBR to Zara for cash, trying to get him on our good side!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0004.jpg

And while the EE seamed to stagnate just a little, we finally got this option from Zara

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0005.jpg

we took Machinery for potential trade and crossbows.

It seamed to work

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0006.jpg

we revolted to vassalage and spammed military for the power numers. 2 promotion units and free upkeep are great considering we are saving hammers from no libraries.

And while we established a large tech lead over Isabella, we decided to shake things up a little bit

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0010.jpg

At the save these two were still at each other's throat!.

Zara got himself a vassal who does not like us too mush

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0012.jpg

Hopefully this will nto adversely affect Zara and our relationship.

Another fillin trade with backwards Issabella

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0013.jpg

Our third GSpy we used for Scotland yard in the next strongest espionage city.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0014.jpg

At this point we decided to save after stealing our way to a pretty good position.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0016.jpg

Not bad, huh!

A map of our lands

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0017.jpg

Yes, I finally sent a HA arround scoping out our rivals.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIID0018.jpg

Espionage is not 100% directed at Zara. It's not too hard how I did this, just find the closest city, drop the spy there for 5 turns and steal. With so many eps my spies rarely get caught and noone ever found out it was me. Also only maybe 1 or 2 missions have failed.

So the techs we have stolen

Monarchy-KK
Monotheism-Issabella
HBR- KK
Currency-Zara
Machinery-Zara
Engineering-Zara
Compass-Zara
Aesthetics- Zara
Optics- Zara
Civil Service-KK
Drama-KK
Paper-Zara

I got all courthouses/castles done as well as karbors in the coastal cities.

I am thinking of redirecting espionage to KK and steal Guilds, and trading that to Zara. Alternatively I may just spy on Zara and steal him dry first!

Meanwhile I am trying to loadup in those border cities!

Is Space the planned Victory for this game?

EDIT: Ok I see you said Space or Diplo. I'd vote for space!

Very impressed that the Monarch AI has Astronomy in 920AD!

After reading the article in your signature and the discussion between you/virus/obsolete, I see that SY are much better when you are using the slider. In my games it is usually a secondary EE where I still do the bulk of my research manually. In the end, it just depends on your situation, your goals, and the map. Every game is different and that is what makes it a great game :). Thanks for the RPCs!!

Peter says

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/263418~Peter-Bowles-Posters.jpg

Keep up the good work!

Return of the Russian Spy: Part V

Another uneventful segment, although very interesting. In short, Isabella and Kublai are still at war with each other (Damned that was one great trade) and at the moment we are leading in tech except for one leader who is tied with us!

Again alot of trades, espionage, key stolen techs but that's the way the game goes!

After stealing Printing Press, Astronomy, and Philosophy from Zara (I catually lost a few spies and had a few missiona fail) the tech situation looked like so

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0000.jpg

Eventually Washington was willing to make a trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0001.jpg

While I expected decent trade fodder, that did not pan out. Oh well, I would have tried to steal it anyway!

One way we have stayed completely out of war was to continue building military as things like this

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0002.jpg

Yes, Peter has become a major suckup!

We redirected eps towards KK at certain times, once to steal guilds and the other to steal gunpowder. Otherwise we relied on stealing techs from Zara and trading what we could.

Eventually we stole

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0004.jpg

The turn after Zara researched it and revolted to nationhood. We also made a major effort to get the glode theater built in the food heavy thracen.

We made alot of trade with Gilgamesh, continuing to be generous as to get a strong, yet not too strong allie

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0005.jpg

Frankly I am not trsuting Zara that much as we did not adopt any religion and thus not theocracy.

But the map from Gilgamesh showed us

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0006.jpg

Yes the last AI is the Moron Aztec who is pathetically behind in tech!. We eventually met him but he's not worth a screenshot!

After stealing constitution and democracy from Zara we made these series of trade, one turn after another

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0012.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0013.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0014.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0015.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0016.jpg

All of which got us to a tech situation of

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0017.jpg

At which point we saved! Gilg is friendly with us and our currasairs ar eenough to hold off any Mongol or Spanish attack although I am now toying with teh idea of flexing some Russian muscle towards the west!. All I need is to get Gilgamesh and Zara to tech towards rifling for Cossacks!!

A few resource comments! We have no oil (Hence my peaked interest in the "West" and apparently the Mongol do NOT have horses and have been running arround with war elephants.

Right now espionage is arround 500+ eps/turn and I have only started construction of jails and bureas. As soon as Zara finished physics we can steal it!

A view of our cities.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0023.jpg


Espionage

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0024.jpg

And of course Civics

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIE0025.jpg

Looking to delay economics for a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time.

So what do you all think. Time to draft/build an army to take over some mongol lands! Or steal our way further along and use superior technology!

Update on stolen techs

Monarchy-KK
Monotheism-Issabella
HBR- KK
Currency-Zara
Machinery-Zara
Engineering-Zara
Compass-Zara
Aesthetics- Zara
Optics- Zara
Civil Service-KK
Drama-KK
Paper-Zara
Printing Press-Zara
Astronomy-Zara
Philosophy-Zara
Guilds-KK
NAtionalism-Zara
Constitution-Zara
Gunpowder-KK
Democracy-Zara

This is an interesting game to follow since I'm still learning about the uses of espionage. With your espionage rate so high, what is your success rate stealing techs?

Really interesting game. I really should stop ignoring espionage!

If the game goes that far you should go for the Internet for RPC consistency. So many stolen (hacked?) techs!

This is an interesting game to follow since I'm still learning about the uses of espionage. With your espionage rate so high, what is your success rate stealing techs?

Not sure rate, but I lost a few spies to Zara although in teh entire game only 1 was discovered and only a -1 diplo penalty. The success rate is almost always 100% except at the start of the last segment where I lost several spies in a row to failure and I suspect Zara ran a counter-espionage mission.

I was at first concerned about sending the spies overseas but perhaps that has worked better as counter espionage is lower.

We shall see what happens once Zara builds some bureaus and agencies.

Really interesting game. I really should stop ignoring espionage!

If the game goes that far you should go for the Internet for RPC consistency. So many stolen (hacked?) techs!

Yes, definitely the interent. I also need at least extremely stong production cities as I will likely need to out-produce the AIs that I am stealing SS parts from. Either that or just kill off Isabella, KK, and perhaps Gilgamesh for a domination but I am leaning away from amilitary might game (well perhaps against KK and Isabella, just to keep my "skills" sharp :devil:)

Once the Space Race starts, you can use your massive amounts of EPs to destroy parts while they're being built. Like that, you won't even need a huge production.

Return of the Russian Spy: Part VI

Well, is there too much of a good thing in this game!!!???

Espionage has been beyong my expectations. In fact, techs to steal have been drying up and we are no longer really running an espionage game, we are running a GOLD game!!!! At least at the moment!

First, what have we actually stolen this segment

Physics-Zara
Chemistry-KK
Economics-KK
Corporation-Zara
Communism-Zara
Rifling-Washington
Biology-Zara

And frankly threse dogs are teching like Toku and Monty involved in a non-stop war!

WE started by noticing SOMEONE was actually heading down the rifling beeline!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0000.jpg

GW was delighted to get Democracy!

And pretty soon was sprung up once again

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0001.jpg

Isabella managed to fight them off and stay OUT of vassaling to anyone!.

After economics were revolted to free market

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0002.jpg

We lost about 100 ep/turn because of losing the walls, but we stole corporation soon and were where we started! Not that bad of a loss.

And here we noticed old GW in fact got rifling

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0003.jpg

So we directed all eps towards him and in maybe 10 turns we had access to rifles!

We also stole communism from Zara and revolted to state property figuring we could us ethe production boost later. But will the game go that far????

At this point the only tech we did not have was military Science and I did not want to mess arround stealing from Gilgamesh and ruin our diplomatic situation there, soooo

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0006.jpg

Followed by

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0007.jpg

We played a little more, stealing biology off of Zara who's techpace really hit a wall then (I have enough eps top steal medicine which is what he's teching next). Since noone had any techs we did not, I dropped the ep slider to 0% and basically got 100% gold off of commerce. This allowed me to upgrade almost everything we have to rifles/cossacks!

This is where I saved and things may be getting interesting.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0009.jpg

KK and Zara both heading towards culture wins. I really cannot get a space race win ahead of them if I cannot steal the needed techs! And before anyone sayd to just sabotage them, that only goes so far in a culture race, review Mao's game and the problems I had with stopping Willem down that road.

However, KK has "Enough on his hands" so he is preparing for war, likely against Issabella.

TEchs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0010.jpg

And espionage

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIF0011.jpg

So here we are waiting to steal Medicine, and then after that who knows. But seams to me the road towards a space win is narrowing.

So I think peter has to get the Russian army going and perhaps let his Cossacks run amock! Sure I wanted to leverage all the EE I can, but that well has dried up, for now.

You still can for city revolts

Cossacks and spies war? Unfortunately against Rifles you'll probably need some siege, but I think in war, you should force yourself to use espionage as much as you can by taking down walls.

Well Mad judging by your situation I would support workshopping everywhere now because you are still getting insane EPs without the slider and can afford a dip in commerce. I would then use cossack + spy spam and take over the world

I think you have the EE down now, compared to the first 2. Using both the science & esp sliders in a 'normal' game you could easily tech to a space win, just stealing backfill and big ticket items you don't want to trade for. Way to go!!:goodjob::goodjob:

try some espionage warfare with no siege!

try some espionage warfare with no siege!


Hitting a large city with multiple health/happiness missions can bring a city down hard.

Hey, Mad:

Maybe try sabotaging every building in each capital, and hit them with the health/happiness missions. That would devastate everyone! (except you of course)

Hitting a large city with multiple health/happiness missions can bring a city down hard.

I was just meaning causing revolts to remove defence before he attacks but crippling every other empire using his spies sounds hilarious :lol: it would certainly be an interesting finish to the espionage RPC

Why no Mercantilism, it would give a free spy specialist in every city, freeing up citizens for other work, or is your Trade income too high.

On space ship parts, you sabotage once they are BUILT not during process of building. Obviously the best ones to sabotage are the most expensive. :huh:

Ever thought of gifting a small junk city, close to capital to Zara? it would help offset the espionage points, and make destroying space ship parts cheaper and easier.

Alot of interesting proposals on how to proceed here with the EE. At this point, let's suffice to say that the EE has accomplished it's mission in the ability to stay ay tech parity or superiority.

I think the next issue is to use it in warfare: So my thinking is as follows

1) Keep ep's freely coming from specialists and buildings.
2) Keep the slider at 100% gold to continue upgrading all.
3) I will do a test to see if it's feasible to swap to US due to happiness issues (and Gilgamesh's diplo points).
4) Between the gold slider, draft in GT city (we draft 1 rifle every 5-6 turns), and US we can build an overwhelming army to attack towards the west.
5) Get a massive force of spies and use them to bring city culture to it's knees. This means redirecting eps towards Isabella or Kublai.

In a nutshell, we are using the gold slider to fund an entire army, whether outright purchase or upgrade.

At the same time we continue to steal/trade our way to tech parity with Zara and Gilgamesh.

About culture, I like the idea of completely crippling the last city by continual city revolt although the number of spies and diplo penalty will be massive.

Victory conditions??? Let's see what the situation is after we take on the western threat.

Looking for some more feedback on this thinking. I have never played an espionage game this way before (I have done games using the Settled Great Spy though) and find a surpising number of options here. Leveraging a 100% gold slider for warfare after running the EE so well was rather unforseen.

Don't switch to Merc it removes TR's to enemy cities you want to steal techs from and I suggest going for the person who has the holy shrine and that religion which is adopted by the best techer

if you're concerned about AI's running away with a cultural victory, how about consider a stack of cossaks+spies on a one way mission deep into enemy territory to raze their most important cultural city?

I think there's some RPC value there.

This way you get to stay out of a protracted war for territory which might be better suited for a conquest RPC, you also get a chance to use your spies in their military capacity to bring down cultural defenses for the turn your cossacks attack.
This way you've used your UU and your RPC focus in a combined strike =)

Given the nature of the RPC challenge/Civ you've chosen I also think it wold be fun to work towards operating under police state + communism, pre-workshop your cottages (so that you can swap them over to workshops in a rush at the end) and take a space win utilising your UB.

Everyone hates each other too much for a UN win to be much of a problem I think.
You have means of dealing with civs aiming for culture wins by using spies and your UU.
Your UB is space oriented.

It almost writes itself >.>

-edit- I just wanted to add that I do love how you're willing to stick to a theme, rather than just going with the optimal method which, let's face it, can get rather boring. Keep up the good work =)

I think you should stick with the Sneakiness factor. It seems obvious that you could transform to a war footing, build an army, and conquer Khan and Issabella and get a Domination victory.

I would be much more entertained, and I think the challange would be much greater, if you keep up the spy angle and try to keep a lid on the others through ALOT of sabotage missions while going for UN or Space. Using spies to help you with diplomacy by adjusting enemy civics could be interesting.

If you think you couldnt hold back both Zara and Kubla from cultural, maybe a sneak attack raze pillage war through Mongolia whil using espinoage to keep Zara off track.

The longer I read this, the more I believe I've underestimated the power of an EE a lot :bowdown:
I usually defend against espionage by the AI, sometimes taking down city culture, but that's it.


4) Between the gold slider, draft in GT city (we draft 1 rifle every 5-6 turns), and US we can build an overwhelming army to attack towards the west.

Looking for some more feedback on this thinking.

The Russians swarm towards the west with an overwhelming army ?
Sounds kind of historical familiar to me :goodjob:

The Russians swarm towards the west with an overwhelming army ?
Sounds kind of historical familiar to me :goodjob:

Nothing really important, but I read that as "swam". :crazyeye:

Return of the Russian Spy: Part VII

After considering the RPC and what we have, plus the quick teching of a few Ais I decided to stick with the espionage angle and try for a space race win. We entered a war for a specific goal (which we failed at) but we are looking at space while using espionage to beat down the Ais culture. We shall see how it ends!

We start by changing civics to better leverage the extra gold we have

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0000.jpg

ONE city turned unhappy, but we rushed a forge to handle that!

We started by stealing

Steam Power-KK
Medicine-Zara
Steel-KK

Which allowed us to redirect eps

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0001.jpg

Note the techs that Zara and Kublai are researching. Zara is a tech dog and we start ignoring him, looking at Kublai AND Gilgamesh.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0002.jpg

We did not end up stealing electricity but used the eps later to steal
Radio. Mostly because I decided to shake things up

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0003.jpg

And very soon Isabella was dogpiled

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0004.jpg

And I finally decided to utilize our Cossacks!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0005.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0006.jpg

Sorry Isabella but you have one of two things we do NOT have. Oil you have, and we DO NOT have coal. yes folks, we are going to space without oil or coal, thus no railroads!

We stormed across the southern Spanish desert lands capturing numerous cities, but coming JUST short of Barcelona before Isabella capitulated to Kublai! We gifted back a city or 2 then just kept the armies in those two captured cities.

After stealing

Combustion-KK
Radio-Gilgamesh
Assembly Line-KK

We readjusted the slider to 1000% gold again as there is nothing interesting to steal yet as KK is researching Fascism and Gilgamesh in still teching Combustion.

We saved here looking to get alot of gold to upgrade everything and start drafting LOT's of military! We also now have a Heroic Epic city with 1 settled GG for 2 promotion units. I see LOT's of infantry coming out soon.

Our cities

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0011.jpg

Espionage

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0012.jpg

When we have the espionage slider up we are generating about 2000+ eps/turn! Think I could have been getting 2000+ beakers with that few cities in a traditional game???

Also we got about 5 or 6 GSpies which we used all for Scotland yards!

But the best yet is

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIG0013.jpg

Tada!!!! We are now the tech leader! Considering the LAST tech we researched "Honestly" was Code of Laws I say the EE is doing quite well!

So onwards to space. I plan to buy/upgrade and get overwhelming power numbers to deter attack. Meanwhile it's time to build/rush the production buildings. The only drawback I see is the lack of coal for power. THAT may be a very big problem, but let's see what we can do!

ouch, no coal will indeed hurt.

I've been impressed with your play so far. Stealing techs to use as a bribe for one AI to dec war on another AI is so wonderfully in keeping with the theme.

Keep it up =)

No coal sucks, no railroads, no coal plants, weak ironworks. Certainly recommend finding some weak civ to conquer/vassalize and get some. You can't even found a corp for it like oil or aluminum.

We readjusted the slider to 1000% gold again as there is nothing interesting to steal yet....

That's kind of...impressive. I don't have that setting in my game :D



Combustion-KK
Radio-Gilgamesh
Assembly Line-KK
Combustion.

Tada!!!! We are now the tech leader! Considering the LAST tech we researched "Honestly" was Code of Laws I say the EE is doing quite well!


And that's nice understatement, Mad :D
Your up to 33 stolen techs, if I didn't miss any.


ontopic coal: what about simply trading coal ?
You've sucked up like a Ferengi to most AIs the whole game - there must be someone with coal who really loves you :confused:

It is usually really expensive to trade for.

Expensive or no, I'd surely make whatever trade to get coal - even for the short term. Trade your oil for a while. Trade horses, oil, copper, iron, and whatever else at once. Sabotage resources in other lands that you have extras of so the AI might trade. You can at least get rails up as they won't go away if you lose your coal source.

Weaker iron works is not such a huge hit - building in a city that has iron will give a boost and I rarely have a city that has both coal and iron anyway.

With regard to coal plants, it's tough that you can't build them right off, but if you get coal in trade you can at least get them up and running for as long as you have the resource, no? Also, there are always nuke plants and, if you get to plastics and have a good production city in the right spot, Three Gorges. Heck, you might even consider whipping the science slider up once you can go for plastics to be sure you get there first and thus a head start on that wonder.

Now the trick - will you have aluminum? Also key for a space race.

Weaker iron works is not such a huge hit - building in a city that has iron will give a boost and I rarely have a city that has both coal and iron anyway.

Don't know how resources work? :confused: When a resource is hooked up to your empire every city gets the benefit of it, you don't have to have the resource in a specific city's BFC. Every city will have coal and iron if you can hook it up. (except for the National Park city, as that national wonder removes access to coal)

I understand how that works with resources of course, but perhaps I have the Iron Works wonder wrong then. I thought that the city had to have iron and/or coal in the BFC in order to have the bonus specifically for that wonder. That's my mistake if it's otherwise, and I'd be pleased to learn something new in this regard too.

I thought it was +50% w/ iron and +50% w/ coal. You don't need iron and coal to build it I don't think just one of the them. I intrepreted Kev's post as saying if he traded for coal built ironworks and stop trading for coal the 50% loss from not having coal would not be a big deal.

You get 50p.c. each for Iron and Coal wherever it is in your empire

Nah, I had the wonder interpreted incorrectly - thinking the resources had to be in the BFC for the wonder to get the bonus from each. Don't know why I had that wrong. Sorry for my confusion.

Whatever the case, still makes good sense to trade for coal with whatever you can muster, get rails up and even a coal plant or two. I'd suggest even getting the coal plant up in the city that will build Three Gorges. Once you have that wonder and your rails built, you can cancel the deal if you wish and only suffer a slight loss in the effectiveness of your Iron Works.

Nah, I had the wonder interpreted incorrectly - thinking the resources had to be in the BFC for the wonder to get the bonus from each. Don't know why I had that wrong. Sorry for my confusion.You got it from Civ3 :p

Who is the best leader for an espionage economy?
The Great Wall is crucial, to get the early great spy, so I think Industrious is important. Optionally, one that starts with mining so you get to BW, then chop it.
Early courthouses are a must, so I think Organized is important as well. So the best would be...FDR. Runner’s up are Qin Shi Huang, Bismarck, Asoka, and Stalin. Comments? Opinions? Critiques? Flames?

I think Philosophical is more important to EE then Industrious, Khan. After all, you only need to build one, rather cheap, wonder to get it going, but you'll have countless of Gspys. I agree Organized is very nice for an EE, so Frederick is probably the best Espionage leader.

Ready to post the next segment. Some interesting times ahead!

Return of the Russian Spy: Part VII

Well espionage certainly results in rather long games! Looks to me like we have one path to victory here!

We plugged along alternating between commiting commerce to either gold or espionage.

We managed a great, if pricey trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20000.jpg

The interesting thing is that I have managed to keep this trade going all segment with some changes as KK demands more and more. Still, we have the gold.

And because of the GS points from the National Park we managed to pop

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20001.jpg

Which we used for a GA!

After using all that oil to upgrade our frigates to destroyers we finally stole

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20002.jpg

And KK STILL is trading us oil. SO we have ALOT of tanks laying arround, but probably not as many as I whould have built.

BUT, the more important question is DO WE HAVE ALUMINUM???

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20003.jpg

Two sources, one on top of a former Spanish city and another deep within our own territory.

I did notice that Hammurabi managed to sneak in artillery as a monopoly tech which I easily stole to still maintain a tech edge.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20005.jpg

NOW, what did we actually steal? well

Industrialism-Zara
Refridgeration-Zara
Artillery-Hammurabi
Mass Media-KK
Plastics-Zara
Rockectry-KK
Superconductors-Zara

All this caused alot of failed missions and caught spies in Ethiopian lands, ending with a ticked off Zara. Thus we decided to

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20006.jpg

And adopted Confuscianism. By the end we got Zara to friendly even with -8 diplo points to caught spies! Our only threat are Gilg and KK who are in free religion.

And to further cement the bonds of friendship we once again caved in to Zara's demands

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20007.jpg

Then some interesting events occurred

First we got lucky and popped coal

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20008.jpg

GREAT! Power to all cities now in case we lose the 3 Gorges Dam race.

The Gilgamesh decides to suicide himself by declaring war on KK

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20009.jpg

KK and Isabella destroyed him picking up a vassal. Well, we don't have to worry about Gilgamesh in the culture race, but KK is a serious issue as he HAS TURNED OFF THE SCIENCE SLIDER by the save!

At this point we managed to steal rocketry off of KK

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20010.jpg

and built

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20011.jpg

Unfortunately, KK is simply too large as we could not even get the chairmanship!

We managed to get the meteor random event for 5% spaceship production.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20013.jpg

We also got yet another GSpy and since we had a Scotland Yard in EVERY city (except the pathetic and weak former Spanish cities) we

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20014.jpg

First infiltration mission all game!

And once I stole this

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20015.jpg

I realized I needed to build observatories to get the UB for faster spaceship part production.

We saved here, with the tech situation

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20016.jpg

Disgustingly, I lost 5 spies trying to steal flight from KK even though they had a 55% chance of succeeding. This is a very annoying aspect of the espionage game. That many failed missions in a row is simply stupid.

So since flight is not that important anyway, we stopped trying to steal it a kept espionage against KK

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20017.jpg

BECAUSE!!!!!!!!!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIH20018.jpg

Going for the culture win! Right now I am stock piling spies in KK's #3 city to send it into continual revolt. Also KK "Has Enough on HIs Hands" so he's going after someone. Even if he left us alone (we are the only close on in power) he likely has enough power to get a domination win on his own.

Well, there you have it. We are trying for an espionage space race with a powerful and cultural Khan at our borders!

I love this thread and the previous EE one with Mao, madscientist. You inspired me to try running an espionage economy in my current game which is totally different from my usual style and is helping me get more out of Civ 4 - thanks :)

Have you considered building the Manhattan Project and using a combination of nukes, fall-out and spies causing cities to become unhappy and unhealthy?

No idea if you can build the first yet, but it might one hell of a way to kick Kublai in the nuts. Otherwise a simple stack of 20 tanks with barrage and city raider might be able to raze those important cities of his.

Agreed on the possible need to exterminate a city or two of Khan's at some point. Does not have to be pretty, and the forces you send do not need to come back.

If the three cities are too deep to reach with tanks without the fear of your stack becoming mincemeat on the way, you can consider taking one if it is coastal with transports/marines. Usually it's possible to set up your ships so you can declare and attack on the same turn.

I know you cannot bombard from sea with siege, so the best you can do is take down the culture defense. Easily done with the spies, which means you don't have to have a huge cadre of warships involved.

Don't even know if any of the cities are coastal - will have to check out the screen shots.

Upon Edit: The only screen shot I could find with the cities was on page 2. Of course Karakorum and New Sari are inland. Can't tell about Beshbalik. And the closest city by land seems to be New Sari - and it's not that close....

bomb the poop outta KK! =]

Great thread Mad really enjoying this one:goodjob:

Probability of the 5 straight failed missions at 55% success rate about 2% or 1 in 50 campaigns. Three in a row would be about 10%. (If i got my maths right ;) )

Shouldn't happen more than once in a game.

Three in a row: 16.6%

Five in a row: 5.03%.

x in a row: .55^x*100

Just to let everyone know, I believe this last segment will be very very long or very very fast. I decided to run EE to the max and currently I am sending KK's third culture city repeatedly into revolt which seams to be working. The problem is he is cautious now with -8 diplo penalty to caught spies :eek:

The problem is he is cautious now with -8 diplo penalty to caught spies :eek:

Hmmm, that may be a slight problem:lol:

Hmmm, that may be a slight problem:lol:

Actually at the moment it's -17! But on the bright side I did just get a +1 diplo modifier for letting Kublai recover a crashed airliner!

Return of the Russian Spy: Part IX

The game is NOT over yet as this segment just got too damned long to finish in one night, so here's a rather short update to keep everyone up to date.

I decided to go the pure SPY route as it is more in line with the RPC. Forget about invading Kublai I simply relied on

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0000.jpg

Yep, I kept spies planted in his #3 culture city and kept sending it into revolt. He has gone from pleased to furious by the end of the segment but so far no attack yet. Probably because our power numbers have surpassed his!

Powe rnumbers greater, but why?? Well, he's NOT teching and we are stealing things like

Genetics-Zara
Computers-Zara
Fission-Isabella
Ecology-Zara
Satellites- well wait and see.

we got tired of trying to steal flight from Kublai so we simply got it in a trade

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0001.jpg

Oh yeah, did I forget a tech we stole

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0002.jpg

Yep, that get's us mechanized infantry. Good enough to repel tanks which we are not is short supply of ourselves since KK is still trading us oil even at the save, even with a -26 diplo penalty for spy action!

And more because I wanted to say I have as many techs as I can get

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0003.jpg

Then a stronge thing occurred, Isabella has fission and noone else did (well GW ad it but was not trading it). So

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0004.jpg

But is the long run this was a waste of eps because....

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0007.jpg

Well it gave us satellites for free which was nice considering the stupid techs Zara keep going after (advanced flight, come on man can't you see what I need to steal!).

We also built the 3 gorges Dam which got us power to all cities!.

But even as things went so well we still felt the need to cave in like a craven

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0008.jpg

All part of the espionage thing!


I finally decided to take this from Zara

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0010.jpg

I have littel concern from KK, and if he attacks we have some mega defenses in those border cities.

We saved here.

The tech situation

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0011.jpg

And espionage

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0012.jpg

And victory conditions

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIII0013.jpg

Note how poorly KK has gotten culture from that last city. One slight problem is that several space ship parts of ours has been destroyed, so we ran some counter-espionage measures!

So how is this espionage game going!

If only you could use spies to steal space ship parts...

If only you could use spies to steal space ship parts...

Airport security: Sir would you please open your bag
Spy: Ahh... sure....

Airport security: hmm, what is this?
Spy: Oh that? that's just an.. um... bird feeder... ?

Airport security: A bird feeder? I have to say it looks suspiciously like a docking bay for a large interstellar vessel

Spy: Oh no, definitely a bird feeder, for my mother you see
Airport security: Really? Interesting. Very well, move along, travel safe.

Three in a row: 16.6%

Five in a row: 5.03%.

x in a row: .55^x*100

that would be the prob of successfull attempts in a row :p
not failures.

Airport security: Sir would you please open your bag
Spy: Ahh... sure....

Airport security: hmm, what is this?
Spy: Oh that? that's just an.. um... bird feeder... ?

Airport security: A bird feeder? I have to say it looks suspiciously like a docking bay for a large interstellar vessel

Spy: Oh no, definitely a bird feeder, for my mother you see
Airport security: Really? Interesting. Very well, move along, travel safe.

:lol::lol::lol::crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye::lol: :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

Why is it that you have the Internet but there's still a tech it won't pick up?

Why is it that you have the Internet but there's still a tech it won't pick up?

Another civilization needs to get Advanced Flight.

The internet was always confusing to me until maybe a year ago. I used to think it meant

"You can get free techs from 2 random civilizations"

What it really means is

" You get a free tech if ANY two civilizations know it"

Thus in my Mao RPC I deliberately avoided the internet so I would not automatically get the techs monotheism/theology/divine right.

Why is it that you have the Internet but there's still a tech it won't pick up?

Tech needs to be owned by two civilizations before Internet picks it up. Guess the google doesn't find it otherwise...

that would be the prob of successfull attempts in a row :p
not failures.

Oh shoot.

3 failures in a row: 9.11%

5 failures in a row: 1.8%

x failures in a row: (1-.55)*x

Another civilization needs to get Advanced Flight.

The internet was always confusing to me until maybe a year ago. I used to think it meant

"You can get free techs from 2 random civilizations"

What it really means is

" You get a free tech if ANY two civilizations know it"

Thus in my Mao RPC I deliberately avoided the internet so I would not automatically get the techs monotheism/theology/divine right.


Ahhh, ok that explains it. I was wondering why whenever I had Internet it would popup a new tech every once in a while.

For the record, the game is still going. I have a -55 diplo penalty to KK, had several of my own space parts sabatoged, and have built my 370th spy. Frankly, I am ready to blow my brains out :suicide:

Return of the Russian Spy: Finale

What a wild ride! Not many screenshots but I can tell you a very long and tedious segment. I bascially spent every turn sending Kublai's thrid culture city into revolt while stealing all techs from Zara.

For starters my biggest concern was seeing this UN vote

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0000.jpg

But KK does not like Zara enough for a diplo win.

And once we cracked over 100,000 eps towards Zara I decided to start replenishing those against Kublai

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0001.jpg

Now at first New sari was the problem city, then

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0002.jpg

Followed by 2 other cities. So at times I was sending three Mongol cities into revolt on the same turn!!!:crazyeye:

FINALLY, Kublai got smart and stopped trading us oil, however

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0003.jpg

Considering at one point we faced a game with no oil and no coal I think we faired pretty damned well!

Finally after watching Zara tech off things like laser and stealth we stole

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0004.jpg

Zara was pretty slow getting Apollo built which gave us a very large head start. I also planned for this by saving a pair of GPs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0005.jpg

Yep, for a golden age to out build Zara. I never had to sabotage any Ethiopian space parts although I did the docking bay, just because I could.

We also popped several more Great Spies which we really could not use at all!!!

Kublai came arround with some more demands after we researched those late game military techs

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0006.jpg

You bet, 10 turns of peace. Just enough time to finish the stasis chamber which got sabotaged TWICE by the AI

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0007.jpg

And looking at victory conditions

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0008.jpg

We made it, barely against Kublai. All that continual revolt of those Mongol cities payed off.

Two turns before landing I heard the war horns but

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0010.jpg

We stayed save, even with a -56 diplo penalty against Kublai!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0011.jpg

Yes, that's one mightily irate Mongol warlord to have on our borders the entire game!

Soon after

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0012.jpg

A space race win using only stolen techs! WOW, does the EE game rock or what!

Not our best score

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0013.jpg

But we did get slowed down quite a bit.

And a look at the number of spies we used/abused.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/MSguy_photo/Peter%20III/PeterIIIJ0014.jpg

Yes, many lost spies were sent to Mongol and Ethiopian dungeons, but that was a sacrifice Peter was willing to make!

So who would have thought that an EE could get a Space Race win? I certainly had my doubts before the RPC started but no more!

Recap on the Espionage Economy to follow.

REcap on teh Espionage Economy:

Holy Smokes, does this economy rock!!! Don't get me wrong, a strong cottage game helps this along, and Philosophical Peter made it much easier. But damned, stealing the entire tech tree from Code of Laws onward!?

Frankly I never missed the science slider much except at the end when I screamed "Just tech Fiber Optics Moron!". Stealing a monopoly tech very early and then trading it arround Like Mansa Musa at a used car convention is very important here.

Next, the nationalism/constitution/democracy/communism group of techs are a killer in this EE game, and there is not much the AI can do stop you aside from war.

Which brings me to: D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y!!!!!!!!! I stayed completely out of wars (except that late dogpile of Isabella) and managed to keep everyone happy with us. Cementing the bonds with tech leaders Zara by swapping to his religion and favorite civic. Also bribing Isabella into attacking Kublai starting a centuries long war was a big plus.

Great Spies! WE certainly got ALOT of them and built a scotland yard in every city (again except for those token former spanish cities), ran a few infiltration missions late, used one in a Golden Age and still had 2 with nothing to do!

I hope everyone enjoyed this RPC and were patient to see a replay of an RPC I failed twice before! Third time is a charm, stealing my way into a space race win!

Thanks for following!

I have to say, great game Mad! This is probably one of the most inspiring and educational games you've played so far!

I think the biggest lesson learned here is its a lot less trouble to just raze the dang culture city. ;)

but winning in considerable style instead is much better, great game!
It looks like the EE actually can be pretty good after all!

391 spies :lol:

Amazing game, I always see espionage as a support to "standard" research, but stealing almost the entire tech tree, just wow. Poor Kubilai was a little pissed at the end :lol:

I'm going to try this on my next game. As I love the ability to steal techs! Why research them yourself when you can just take it from someone else

Great game! This one gets in my top 5 favorite!

Great Game!

In terms of total commerce cost, Espionage points appear to be much more valuable than beakers in the sense that they allow you to get techs for a fraction of the total beaker cost!

I wanted to ask a single question to Mad.

I know that your RPC rules stated clearly NOT to tech anything via slider or Scientists..
Why haven't you BUILD research in production cities? Post assembly line and with a factory, a workshop under SP gives you more reaserch with a powered factory than a cottage at 100slider with Lib/Uni/Observ...

I wanted to ask a single question to Mad.

I know that your RPC rules stated clearly NOT to tech anything via slider or Scientists..
Why haven't you BUILD research in production cities? Post assembly line and with a factory, a workshop under SP gives you more reaserch with a powered factory than a cottage at 100slider with Lib/Uni/Observ...

Simple. Part of the RPC angle. I really wanted to see if I could steal the entire tech tree post CoL!

Can your spies destroy completed enemy security bureaus? Or maybe the +50% culture buildings?

Can your spies destroy completed enemy security bureaus? Or maybe the +50% culture buildings?

Yes they can. The enemy is pretty fast at rebuilding it near the end though.

Since you were Phi, and when you noticed you had no easy means to get oil after the unfortunate capitulation of Issabella, why did you not focus your GP farm, or a secondary / tiertary city on producing a Great Scientist to found the <Ethenol Corporation name>? Or did you simply trade for the oil to improve the diplomatic relations?

Did you found any corporations to help your economy along? Mining Inc? Not that you really needed the extra money I guess as you were probably running so rich with such low commerce demands.

Since you were Phi, and when you noticed you had no easy means to get oil after the unfortunate capitulation of Issabella, why did you not focus your GP farm, or a secondary / tiertary city on producing a Great Scientist to found the <Ethenol Corporation name>? Or did you simply trade for the oil to improve the diplomatic relations?

Did you found any corporations to help your economy along? Mining Inc? Not that you really needed the extra money I guess as you were probably running so rich with such low commerce demands.

It has been a while since I played the game, but I think I can answer

1) As it was an RPC I decided to avoid all scientists and stuck with it. Only spy specialists weer allowed! The trade for oil sort of worked for the best as it seamed to be the only thing keeping Kublai from declaring war after all those caught spies.

2) I do not recall the civics but my guess is that state property was more powerful for the fast space part construction, plus as mentioned earlier no other specialists were allowed.

EDIT: Actually I see I did pop a Great Scientist from the National Park city but apparently we were already in a state property game and they can be real hard to change out of.

bad post