Team Cav have made contact with the Mad Scientists!

Dear Brothers in Kazakhstan,

we have most interesting news! We have met a warrior who claims to
hail from the Mad Scientists, sounds like a strange place to be from
but that's what he says. We have yet to get anything useful out of him
{no communication yet}, he seemed quite tired and weary. We will
return to you with more information once we have it, we just wanted
you to know. Will you please hold the save when it comes around, so
that we have time to discuss, both with them and among each other?

Best regards from your brothers and allies,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros

Ok, now we know they met these guys far northwest. Then we can safely assume we either meet the Dutch (Sancta) or Persia (Saturn) with our workboat.

Someone should ask Cav to ask MS if they have met anyone else.

Now that we have met Mad Scientists, should we start making plans to complete the trifecta... Or do folks want to wait for us to make contact? Surely someone else has entered into an alliance by now.

Now that we have met Mad Scientists, should we start making plans to complete the trifecta... Or do folks want to wait for us to make contact? Surely someone else has entered into an alliance by now.

I'm not sure others will have made contact. But the main thing is we have a found a suitable partner right now. Barring the fact they may be painfully slow throughout the game and communication with them may be tedious, strategically I think they are our best partner. Especially as they are west of Team Cav

I agree. I also think a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We currently have three civs in contact. It seems like Team Cav is already in favor of making MS the third partner. MS are clearly the weakest team. All the factors point towards making MS third ally. Why wait until MS (or somebody else have met up and allied with each other?

Does anyone object to us just urging Cav to include MS in our alliance? the sooner we can start directing their tech choices the better. they have polytheism and may be going for PH which would be a waste.

Yeah we might as well go with MS. With Cav in the middle we can hit them from 2 sides when we are down to 3 teams. We need to insist that Cav gives us contact with MS as soon as possible so we can talk to them directly.

How can they (team Cav) give us contact with MS? Can we gain contact with MS without sending a unit to their territory?:confused:

Well I guess we can't interact with them in game until we physically meet. What about through email though? Do the rules allow us to contact them through "sealed dispatches delivered by Team Cav" (emailing directly)?

We can't communicate directly but Team Cav will have to pass on our messages

Do we even know what they are discussing? Is there a proposed plan? Have they send us their communications?

If not I would send them a message requesting an update on the discusions, what exactly is being discussed and what info they reveiled.

The latest informal news is that MS are open to trade but don't know about us yet, I have suggested we write a formal letter of introduction to MS that Cav can pass on to them for us. Donsig can you craft one up please?

MS have pottery, AH, Agr, Fish, TW, Myst, Poly and are reasearching Hunting (tbc). The suggestion is that they go for sailing/IW next.

Which do we prefer?

The latest informal news is that MS are open to trade but don't know about us yet, I have suggested we write a formal letter of introduction to MS that Cav can pass on to them for us. Donsig can you craft one up please?

MS have pottery, AH, Agr, Fish, TW, Myst, Poly and are reasearching Hunting (tbc). The suggestion is that they go for sailing/IW next.

Which do we prefer?

sounds good, sailing first would be better to get the trade routes with cavaleiros and get a lighthouse in capital.

MS have pottery, AH, Agr, Fish, TW, Myst, Poly and are reasearching Hunting (tbc). The suggestion is that they go for sailing/IW next.

Which do we prefer? Iron Working, Iron Working, Iron Working Iron Working... Pleeease Iron Working. Does that count as 5 votes?:D

We need to see where the iron is to decide where to build city 5. If it is in the hub we should prob move NW with city 5. If it is close (or better yet, already in our borders), we can just get the gold with city 5.

In order to take advantage of the trade route bonus from Sailing, we have to had LOCATED a rival. That seems way off. In fact... we have traveled so far in our scout boat at this point we should consider the possibility that we have actually sailed past an inland rival. If you look at the wb's progress, you will see that it passed a SECOND MOUNTAIN RANGE.

This might mean we already passed somebody's lands, and are headed into another team's territory. If they are inland as well, we could conceivably travel all the way to MS territory without meeting Saturn or SANCTA.

Initially, we won't gain as much from Sailing as Cav will as they will have :traderoute: with both us and MS (btw we should send a wb out to cav somtime soon!). Later on though we will gain more from trade than Cav because of the greater distance with MS. The lighthouse in Haz will also be handy but it's just +1:food: for us.

One point against sailing though is that if the 3 of us have it then barb galleys can appear... although of course building galleys of our own will be nice, especially if there is decent settling ground north of the Altai mountains.

But knowing where Iron is for city placement is a good point to make, especially for Cav as they don't even have copper...

Initially, we won't gain as much from Sailing as Cav will as they will have :traderoute: with both us and MS (btw we should send a wb out to cav somtime soon!). Later on though we will gain more from trade than Cav because of the greater distance with MS. The lighthouse in Haz will also be handy but it's just +1:food: for us.

One point against sailing though is that if the 3 of us have it then barb galleys can appear... although of course building galleys of our own will be nice, especially if there is decent settling ground north of the Altai mountains.

But knowing where Iron is for city placement is a good point to make, especially for Cav as they don't even have copper...

We will surelly meet someone in the north soon, so sailing will enable trade routes with them as well. Also having traderoutes among the alliance will help things. For barb galleys to appear, there must be a barb city ny the coast and barbs must know sailing...this wil not happen before turn 90-100.

IW is not of much use to us now..no jungle to chop and we will get that copper....but we will need it eventually I guess.

IW isn't of much use to us, but with MS being further north they may have jungle, we'll need to find that out. And true, we should be able to trade with whoever is to our north east, but do we want to? I suppose we do even though they are an 'enemy'

I didn't say so in my previous post, but my preference is for Sailing first from MS, and I think this is also the same for Cav.

MS have pottery, AH, Agr, Fish, TW, Myst, Poly and are reasearching Hunting (tbc). The suggestion is that they go for sailing/IW next.

Which do we prefer?

This reminds me our our sheep versus horse city debate. We want them both now so I think we ask for one and then the other right after that.

The latest informal news is that MS are open to trade but don't know about us yet, I have suggested we write a formal letter of introduction to MS that Cav can pass on to them for us. Donsig can you craft one up please?

I'm not quite sure what we want to say to them at this point. Here's a quick try though:


Greetings Mad Scientists!

Our good friends the Cavaleiros have brought word to us of their meeting with you. We look forward to the day when we can communicate directly but for now our Cavaleiros friends have agreed to handle communications between us. Please send any replies you have through them.

We do hope to be friends with you and that you will be friends with the Cavaleiros. There is much to be gained by the three of us cooperating, especially in the area of knowledge and information. We hope to be able to discuss specifics soon.

Regards,
donsig
Kazakhstan Foreign Minister

The question is, is this against our rule set? :dunno: Maybe we should ask someone?

I'm sure there is no problem with sending a message via Cav. Donsig - do you mind also writing a message for Cav to ask for an official update on their conversations with MS and the latest info on what tech trades might be arranged? We can send the message above as an appendix to that

I just wanted to mention that we met Cavalieros on January 14 (turn 43) and we did not have a treaty with them until January 27 (turn 50). So are we thinking that reaching a treaty with MS will take 7 in-game turns and 2 real-life weeks? :eek: We learned about MS on February 1 (for reference), and we have not opened negotiations with them yet...

Again, I favor getting Iron Working from MS first (Sailing next) for the reasons I have already stated.

It depends on how hard individual team members will make this negotiation sommerswerd, so we will see how long it takes...

It depends on how hard individual team members will make this negotiation sommerswerd, so we will see how long it takes...
Is that a barb? I don't care either way... I think that since we already have a template for a treaty(CavKaz treaty), we should use that formula to move the alliance forward instead of re-inventing the wheel. Hopefully, this will allow us to reach an agreement much faster.

MS did 0% last turn, apparently they are keen to go for Iron Working first (so Sommers will get her wish after all!) as they need it domestically. presumably they have jungles that need chopping!

MS did 0% last turn, apparently they are keen to go for Iron Working first ...

Is this an educated guess on your part or have you heard from Team Cav about what The Mad Ones want?

Just got an update, MS are going for IW now and do have jungles they need to chop. They'll get it in 11 turns at their current rate.

Just got an update, MS are going for IW now and do have jungles they need to chop. They'll get it in 11 turns at their current rate.

Swwweeeeet!;) :woohoo:

Is the expectation that MS will gift IW to us when they finish it? They should... especially considering all the juicy techs we are giving them for basically nothing.

What exactly have we decided to trade with them anyways?

sorry double post

What exactly have we decided to trade with them anyways? My thinking is that Cavalieros are expecting a tech sharing alliance where each partner gifts techs as they are discovered. So theoretically, we would give MS all the techs we have that they don't. Not certain yet with whether I agree with following this policy... ;) Especially since they missed Oracle... But it is certainly what Cavalieros are expecting.

Well that benefits Cav of course. They can't compete with us tech wise so they want to maintain tech parity through a "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" deal. Screw that.

Well that benefits Cav of course. They can't compete with us tech wise so they want to maintain tech parity through a "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" deal. Screw that.
I'm all for the Marxism... as long as we reduce our tech rate and let the two of them (MS and Cavalieros) carry the water to fund our REXing, unit upgrades, etc. We don't have to max tech, in fact as soon as MS enter alliance / we get Alpha, I think we should talk about cutting tech in favor of REX.

I don't want to give Cavalieros Alphabet before we have a deal with MS. Is there some way to convey to Cavalieros that they need to apply more pressure to MS to enter alliance, without backing out of our alliance/going back on our word?.:confused:

I'm afraid this situation is very much like the scenario many European (or Israeli!) governing parties find themselves in just after an election!

When you have a couple of main rivals that aren't powerful enough on their own to come out on top of their rivals, this often means thay have to form a coalition with a smaller party to get a governable majority.

Naturally this smaller party finds itself in a 'kingmaker' position and can allow itself to be courted by either side for their allegiance.

What normally results in eventually is the coalition party being given more power (interms of ministerial positions) than it's actual share of the vote really deserves!

In our game, MS hold this kingmaker position. I have no doubt that S&S would gladly shower gifts on MS if it meant they joined their pact.

I also have no doubt that once S&S realise what's happened with our 3-way pact they will know their best course of action will be to target the weakest link in the pact: MS.

They may try doing this through military means, but far more likely they will try using diplomacy to seduce them away from us.

The carrot always works better than the stick. So we need to keep MS sweet. We can deal with them later, right now our priority is to get ahead of our main rivals: SANCTA

Good news team!

MS have agreed to join the CavKaz alliance! Our little 'hello' note helped swing them across to our camp.

We will work on a proposed treaty together with Cav and then send it to MS for approval.

MS should get IW 10/11 turns from now and Cav should get Monarchy 7/8 turns from now.

I've suggested to Niklas we call ourselves "The Real Triple Alliance"

Good news indeed. It will be nice to get iron working, too, so we can see if there is iron near by.

What is the trading schedule once we get alphabet? I'm not sure what can be traded when.

We send hunting Team Cav for meditation.
We send animal husbandry to Team Cav for priesthood.
We send alphabet to Team Cav.

Three turns, or can we make the trade all at once?

Good news indeed. It will be nice to get iron working, too, so we can see if there is iron near by.

What is the trading schedule once we get alphabet? I'm not sure what can be traded when.

We send hunting Team Cav for meditation.
We send animal husbandry to Team Cav for priesthood.
We send alphabet to Team Cav.

Three turns, or can we make the trade all at once?

We send hunting and writting Team Cav for meditation.
They send send us (same turn) priesthood for animal husbandry.
We send alphabet for monarchy.

so only 1 turn delay in starting CoL

Are we working on a way to official meet MS? Don't we have to meet with them in order to trade with them? Or can Cav broker the techs?

Good news team!

MS have agreed to join the CavKaz alliance! "The Real Triple Alliance" Awww shucks...:( I liked "Cavkazms" or "MadCavKaz"... As I have said before... We are Awesome diplomats:D

We send hunting and writting Team Cav for meditation.
They send send us (same turn) priesthood for animal husbandry.
We send alphabet for monarchy.

so only 1 turn delay in starting CoL

We don't need to give Cav Hunting, let MS give them that.

I also have no problem giving them writing and AH on turn 1 in exchange for just Med and then getting PH next turn for nothing.

If we wait until Cav get Monarchy before giving them Alpha that will also delay us getting Poly back, but it's no use to us now anyway.

In my view anything that helps our allies now helps us, so I think we should just give our techs as soon as we get them. And they give us their techs as soon as they get theirs.

And p.s. It should only be 1 turn delay before we can start on CoL and we should start CoL same turn the library is complete. Sweet :D

We don't need to give Cav Hunting, let MS give them that.

I also have no problem giving them writing and AH on turn 1 in exchange for just Med and then getting PH next turn for nothing.

If we wait until Cav get Monarchy before giving them Alpha that will also delay us getting Poly back, but it's no use to us now anyway.

In my view anything that helps our allies now helps us, so I think we should just give our techs as soon as we get them. And they give us their techs as soon as they get theirs.

Well I think we should give them Hunting as this is in our treaty. Plus, the more stuff WE give them the more they are in OUR debt (the more leverage we have in any shape or form the better).

I'm alright with giving techs early as long as there is a specific agreement (like the current treaty) for us to get something of equal value in return down the road. Our communications with Cav and MS should constantly emphasize friendly relations and cooperation and fairness.

We aren't in a permanent alliance after all. Think Yalta.

So they become our es?

So they become our es?

Better them than us. [pimp]

BTW, Kaleb - there was no note from the Mad Ones in your post above. Did it get lost in transmission?

I forgot to reply to this before. Their papyruspostcard is one of the spoilers in the Cav message but I must have messed up the link.

Here it is again (attached).

Cav have finally passed on their correspondence with MS:

Here's our email conversations with MS:


Quote:
Dear Mad Ones,

we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
of Kazakhstan.

In friendship,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros

Greetings Mad Scientists!

Our good friends the Cavaleiros have brought word to us of their
meeting with you. We look forward to the day when we can communicate
directly but for now our Cavaleiros friends have agreed to handle
communications between us. Please send any replies you have through
them.

We do hope to be friends with you and that you will be friends with
the Cavaleiros. There is much to be gained by the three of us
cooperating, especially in the area of knowledge and information. We
hope to be able to discuss specifics soon.

Regards,
donsig
Kazakhstan Foreign Minister

Principe Perfeito, we share your vision for the Future! We Mad Scientists are ready to join The Cause, enriching the Three Noble Nations: Mad Scientists, Kazakhstan, and Os Cavaleiros. We will do our part to bring a much-needed boost to our combined status in the world. Is there a formal document we should affix our seal to?... if so, please send it on over We are still discussing the utility of IW compared to Sailing - but we will certainly choose one or the other to research next. We'll let you know as soon as we've made a decision. One last thing: In order to speed exploration and contact, please describe best route for us to meet Kazakhstan - by sea or by land? Glad to be aboard! Peter Grimes, Diplomat The Mad Scientists

p.s. - please forward this postcard to Kazakhstan. Thanks!

Dear Mad Ones,

Please accept our apologies for the delay in getting the suggested
formal treaty to you for signature, we certainly haven't forgotten our
northern cousins, but our carrier pigeons certainly do take their time
delivering these stone tablets. Maybe we need to train stronger
pigeons, you think? Though our friends in Kazakhstan tell us they have
a secret on how to make stone tablets that are much thinner and
lighter, sounds intriguing. If only they knew how to tell us this
secret, but they claim it will not be long now {turn 63 they get
Alphabet}.

Attached is the treaty we propose that our three people sign. If you
have any amendments to propose, we will be happy to hear them. Also
note that the same proposal has been sent to Kazakhstan, and suggested
amendments may come from that direction too. We hope there will not be
much need for changes though, and we are very happy with the proposal
we can now finally give you.

With friendship from your southern brothers,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros

The Treaty of the True Triple Alliance (TTA):

§0. Treaty Duration and cancellation terms

* This treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be canceled by
written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the treaty can not be given before the year
500 AD (turn 135).


§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
take no hostile action of any kind towards members of the alliance.


§2. Open Borders

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and
merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on all
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* This will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement when
possible, once Writing is commonly known within the alliance. If
passage is needed before that time, it will be handled through a phony
state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
form an Exclusive Tech Alliance (ETA). No member of the ETA will buy,
sell or trade technologies with a civ/team outside the ETA without the
consent of the other two ETA members.

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree to
cooperate on the advancement of knowledge, initially to achieve the
following technology goals and trades as soon as possible:
- Team Mad Scientists to give Sailing, Iron Working and Polytheism
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Priesthood and Monarchy
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing and Alphabet

* Members agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan at any point in time may be given
in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If any member of the alliance wishes to invoke such an exception, it
must notify the other two alliance members of its intent and reasons
for the deviation.
* Upon completion of any technology goal by any people, the technology
will be traded to the other two peoples as quickly as possible, after
Alphabet is common knowledge.

* All members agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate technology goals, but
that plans for the future technology goals are to be negotiated
continuously at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* All members agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.


§4. Resources

* The peoples of Cavaleiros, Kazakhstan and Mad Scientists agree that
in the case that any alliance member has a spare resource to trade,
they will first try to negotiate a trade with the one of the other
peoples of this treaty.
Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that
resource to another people.


§5. Religion

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists recognize the wishes
and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree
to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that
leads to a religion, until they have managed to found one.

Greetings! The Mad Scientists have analyzed the possibilities this treaty enables, and we are very happy to announce that we agree to all points, as written. We are [7] turns from Iron Working, which we will send on as soon as possible. To The Future! Peter Grimes of The Mad Scientists

So MS have signed the treaty! :D

IW is estimated on T69.

We should gift Team Cav Alphabet and then they'll trade techs with MS and get Polytheism back.

Cav will then gift us Monarchy on T68 and we'll get IW on T70.

I think it's like Methos said, MS don't want to spill the beans just yet about being part of the TTA. They will want the techs soon enough. The fact that they passed on iron working shows their good intentions. What could be MS's motivation for concealing the alliance? Are they fearing retaliation from another team? Or trying to broker another deal? The whole thing just seems a little strange...

SANCTA's score seems awfully high to not be tech trading with anyone... Is it possible that they got IW from MS through some brokering by Saturn (the same way we got IW) It is just a little wierd that everyone is getting IW at the same time.

I think MS is bluffing us, and the way they changed their ways, shows they are dealing right and left across. I expect Saturn to be the middle broker on their side, as we are the middle broker on our side, having alphabet. We need a way to handle MS, and how to maneuver around Saturn, who seems to bridge MS and Sancta the same way we try to do.

Have we had direct any conversations with MS? For all we know it could be CAV playing us (I don't think this is the case but it should be considered).

Niklas just told me that Sancta had indeed researched IW, so we can still trust MS.

Yeah, I said SANCTA had teched IW already :(

MS have apparently made contact with SANCTA last turn. Which would explain why the want to keep their techs hidden.

SANCTA now have :espionage: points from 3 civs all targetted against them

Some more dialogue:

By the way, did MS say how they met SANCTA? Did SANCTA meet them via sea? Or was it a land based encounter. If by sea then SANCTA must have met Saturn already for sure.

MS met SANCTA by land. They stumbled across one of their wandering axes.

I think we should go along Sailing for Writing, then we suddenly change our mind due to some technicality. As far as I know, no one in our alliance got sailing. This would keep the motivated to think cooperation, and disrupt their military planning. I also was supporting this approach but then I thought. Dosen't it seem fishy to anyone that SANCTA has TWICE offered to trade us the EXACT SAME TECH as what MS are teching? If MS are giving SANCTA tech, asking them to tech Sailing for us would not delay them at all... because they are not teching it... MS are. I still think MS and SANCTA getting IW one turn apart was very suspicious. I know that folks are confident about their demographics reading skills so I am not trying to offend but you have to admit at least that these are two wierd coincidences...

This is the new proposed SANCTA treaty for reference:
The Path of Daytime Home Shopping
We agree to an Open Borders deal and a trade of knowledge. Along with you lopsided benefit from Open Borders, we also offer Sailing, Masonry and Monotheism, (447 ) – and we’ll trade these with you for only two easy payments of Writing (less than 100 value now) and Polytheism (149 )!
We’d exchange technology with you as follows:
Sailing for Writing
Masonry for Polytheism
Monotheism for Free! (as soon as we discover it, coming up soon)
But you must act fast! All technologies are individually hand crafted and come with a beautiful certificate of authenticity. Unfortunately this is a limited time offer. BTW whenever I see this used car salesman language "limited time only!!" I smell a rat.:nono:

I still think MS and SANCTA getting IW one turn apart was very suspicious.

Neither SANCTA nor MS have Alphabet so the fact the got IW one turn apart indicate they are not cooperating on techs, as why would they go for the same tech?

Originally Posted by Methos
MS met SANCTA by land. They stumbled across one of their wandering axes. :lol: By "stumbled across", they mean that a SANCTA goon squad came to their border and extorted them... "If you know what's good for you you will give us whatever tech you have... otherwise our 'wandering axes' will start 'chopping wood' in your territory":lol:

MS don't have Alphabet yet remember...

Neither SANCTA nor MS have Alphabet so the fact the got IW one turn apart indicate they are not cooperating on techs, as why would they go for the same tech? My thought is that MS gifted/traded to Saturn who in turn gifted/traded to SANCTA

MS don't have Alphabet yet remember... Yes of course you are right :king: but what about Saturn? Are you saying that Saturn do not have Alpha either? If Saturn has Alpha then they and Sancta could extort MS for tech whether MS has Alpha or not right? SANCTA tells MS "Give up tech or die." MS says "But you dont have Alpha." SANCTA says "give the tech to Saturn" then Saturn gives to SANCTA... simple. If Saturn does not have Alpha, then I would agree that this is not possible.

Saturn also don't have Alphabet... I thought they might have been teching it now but they were teching CoL.

If MS gave IW to Saturn then SANCTA won't have been able to get it from Saturn until the turn after that. And Saturn's score would have had to go up on the same turn and it didn't.

Saturn also don't have Alphabet... I thought they might have been teching it now but they were teching CoL. Fair enough... So my suspicions were unfounded... that is actually a relief now that I think about it. I guess MS were really just trying to conceal alliance. Good for them.:goodjob:

One last question, how do we know that Saturn does not have Alpha? From SANCTA folks, Cavalieros, or MS?

From watching their score. CoL is the first Classical era tech they've researched. (classical era techs are +12 points, whereas ancient era are +6 points)

PM from MS to Cav:

we are trying to feel SANCTA out on their willingness to trade MC after all yes, we've had a few talks with MS, though I haven't personally been involved.

We just received a letter from them offering a peace treaty. It's a fine deal - basically a non-aggression pact until 1ad. They are hoping it will open the door to tech trades. We, of course, want them to think that we are not in league with you and KAZ. Therefore we are thinking of 'stringing them along'. . .

General_W has requested a chat with me, but we haven't worked out a time. I don't want him to find out that we sort of know KAZ, but I don't think I should lie about you guys: The question is, how little can I say that will still be misleading without outright lies? I'd like him to fill in the blanks and reach his own [incorrect] conclusions.

No surprises here... SANCTA are trying to woo MS. Nothing like a non-aggression pact has been offered to us or Cav

Who is the Mad One that the General wants to chat with? Is it peter grimes?

Yes, I believe so. He seems to be handling their diplo. What do you know about him?

Well, like Niklas, General_W and myself, peter_grimes is on the same team in the [c3c] MTDG. We've all been together for over two years now in that game and gotten to know each other quite well. I'd be wary of a chat between any of us succeeding in withholding information without the other knowing something was being held back.

Also, in that game, General_W has been one of the prime movers of our diplomatic efforts. That's another reason I find it difficult to believe SANCTA has not put much thought into diplomacy.

Are they teching archery after sailing?

I think that's the plan, but not sure if it's been decided yet. Really need an ETA asap on Sailing

Hey guess what, we've just met MS's workboat in Saturn's territory :D

I've immediately sent them a proposal for trading Masonry with Sailing and OB. If we can get OB with SANCTA this turn we'll be able to get :traderoute: before ending turn for commerce bonus.

Husch (MS) , their turnplayer, left this message in in-game chat:

He wants us to give Monarchy or Monotheism ? (he wrote Mona...) as a deal before its their turn. Could he mean Masonry???

Kaleb, try to send him a note, to ask specifially what he wants.

they wanted Masonry I thought...

They should really have sent us a pm about this!!

Husch is not a great linguist, a German mathematician, so I guess he is meaning Masonry.

I sent Husch this PM (cc donsig and cav scout)

Hi there, did you get the tech you wanted on your turn? Are there any other techs you need?

btw if you want a tech to be given it's probably best that you send a pm to myself and cav scout

Are we going to say a more formal hello to MS?? we should start talking with Peter Grimes.

I'm happy to do this but surely someone else can help? donsig, what are your thoughts? you now PG a bit already right?

Proposed note to the Mad Ones:

Hello Mad Scientists

It is a pleasure to be able to communicate with you directly now! We have much to talk about, like what the next tech goals of our three way alliance should be. Any thoughts on this? There is also the possibility of a trade with SANCTA for metal casting. Both ourselves and Team Cav are pursuing negotiations in this regard. As a member of the TTA you will of course also benefit from any such trade.

We have met Saturn and you will also if your exploring vessel continues on it's current path. There is now the possibility of trading with Saturn as well. We are currently exploring the prospects of an archery (from Saturn) for masonry (from us) deal. Any thoughts on this deal or on Saturn? We do not think Saturn has allied with SANCTA. If this is true then we (the TTA) have a golden opportunity to further isolate SANCTA by maintaining friendly relations with Saturn. What do you think?

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan.

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

Proposed note to the Mad Ones:

Hello Mad Scientists

It is a pleasure to be able to communicate with you directly now! We have much to talk about, like what the next tech goals of our three way alliance should be. Any thoughts on this? There is also the possibility of a trade with SANCTA for metal casting. Both ourselves and Team Cav are pursuing negotiations in this regard. As a member of the TTA you will of course also benefit from any such trade.

We have met Saturn and you will also if your exploring vessel continues on it's current path. There is now the possibility of trading with Saturn as well. We are currently exploring the prospects of an archery (from Saturn) for masonry (from us) deal. Any thoughts on this deal or on Saturn? We do not think Saturn has allied with SANCTA. If this is true then we (the TTA) have a golden opportunity to further isolate SANCTA by maintaining friendly relations with Saturn. What do you think?

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan.

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

OK..maybe we should tell them that sankta have not met saturn yet...and not say we are not sure.

I also like the idea of archery for masonry

This note is fine. I say send it... Only I would put a deadline on it, saying...
"If we dont hear from you about this by next turn, in one day, two days, whatever... we will assume you are OK with the trade."

OK..maybe we should tell them that sankta have not met saturn yet...and not say we are not sure.

We're not saying anything about whether they have met - we're only talking about them being allied. Anyone else think we should just tell MS that S &S have not met? I'd rather keep that from Team Cav if we can. Telling MS may be the same as telling team Cav.

Only I would put a deadline on it, saying...
"If we dont hear from you about this by next turn, in one day, two days, whatever... we will assume you are OK with the trade."

What's the hurry? I doubt we'll be ready in a couple days to make a trade and if we make deadlines we invite MS to make deadlines when they write to us. If we really want to take down Team Cav after SANCTA we need the Mad Ones to be very good friends of ours. Let's not be so pushy.

I would take out the part about isolating Sancta.

Our team has internal debates about how much we want to coperate with Saturn as it is.

Also while isolating Sancta is important to us it may not be for MS. We don't want it to look like we are using the alliance only to take out one team which is primarily beneficial to us.

This note is fine. I say send it... Only I would put a deadline on it, saying...
"If we dont hear from you about this by next turn, in one day, two days, whatever... we will assume you are OK with the trade."

That goes completely against the language of the treaty. We need active consent for trades with non-alliance teams.

Sommers- if you want to break the treaty with CAV and MS just come out and say so.

Breaking the CavKaZMS alliance is a pretty big deal and should be decided upon by the team with free, fair and transparent debate.

I agree with damnrunner. We should leave out note about SANCTA and just talk about trade with Saturn. It will be a while before MS meet SAN anyway.

We met the MS workboat in Saturn territorial water so they know Saturn.

And MS met SANCTA a long time ago (SANCTA Axeman). MS knows that Saturn and SANCTA don't have contact. The only team that might not know this is CAV.

What's the hurry? Let's not be so pushy. yes you are right Don... I guess there really is no pressure on the trade with MS... sorry:( I would like for us to be a little more forceful with our allies in general though... as Cavalieros have been with us.

Sommers- if you want to break the treaty with CAV and MS just come out and say so. No I don't want to break the treaty... yet.

Doh, of course they've met ages ago. :hammer2:


Anyway, my suggestion still stands :mischief:

Revised proposal which limited our talk of Saturn to just the trades we are proposing to them:

Hello Mad Scientists

It is a pleasure to be able to communicate with you directly now! We have much to talk about, like what the next tech goals of our three way alliance should be. Any thoughts on this? There is also the possibility of a trade with SANCTA for metal casting. Both ourselves and Team Cav are pursuing negotiations in this regard. As a member of the TTA you will of course also benefit from any such trade.

We have met Saturn and are currently exploring the prospects of an archery (from Saturn) for masonry (from us) deal as well as a future trade where we give them iron working for something to be determined later. Any thoughts on these deals or on Saturn?

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan.

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc. If there is agreement on this version feel free to send it out via our team email. I'll send it in the morning (12 hours from now) if it isn't sent before then.

Like it as is. I think we should send.

Ok, I don't know the MS email address and I'm rushed this morning so I cannot send the message out. Feel free to send it - I'll be offline most of the day.

I'll ask grimey for a team email address and send it to that

EDIT: I've sent this:

Hi guys,

We use a team email account for sending official messages to other teams.

kazakhstan.civ4@googlemail.com

What's email address do you use and who is your primary spokesperson?

Ours is donsig

Their Reply:

Helo
our main diplo is peter grimes.
And our mail account:
Team.Mad.Scientists@gmail.com
ciao
HUSch

I've sent donsig's message via email and sent a PM to grimey so he knows.

There was an in-game chat from HUSch wanting us to do the tech trade during their turn. I guess they are trying to conceal the trade from SANCTA. What techs did we agree to give them by the way?

And what are they researching right now and what is their progress?

I know they want to go for Theology but they need Monotheism from us to do that. Do they have an estimate on when they can get Theology?

I don't think they are sim testing like us, so I don't know how accurate any estimate they could give now will be.

I'm fine with passing on Monotheism to them, we don't want them to have any reason for giving in to SANCTA's charms.

AND LMAO! I've just read your strapline :lol:

So what has MS been teching these last few turns (since they got Sailing)? Did they put beakers towards anything while waiting for us to give them Monotheism?

Im fine with passing Monotheism on also- if we can get them to agree to another round of tech trading.

I wonder if they are doing archery. Saturn has offered to do archery for us if we give them sailing. I will pm peter grimes to ask what they are teching now.

EDIT: Sent this pm to peter grimes:

Hi peter grimes,

We in Kazakhstan are trying to formulate our alliance's next tech goals. We understand you want to tech theology but we're not sure what you are researching now. Would you please reply to this pm or send a note to our team email telling us what you are currently researching and when you expect to finish it?

Thanks,
donsig of Kazakhstan

Let's send a few PMs to them, they seem to really suck at communication in general. Is there some way we can say to them that we expect a better level of communication from them? Peter Grimes hasn't said a single word to us yet.

Do they need Monotheism this turn? If so I think we should just give it to them. Hopefully they aren't after Archery now.

MS have 9 hours left to tell us what they want to do, who should we chase for an answer about tech?

I think we can offer them Mono now. If they want it now they can take it if not they can refuse.

Since we are ok with giving it now if they ask - I see no difference in just offering it without them asking.

Ok, I'll log in and make the offer

EDIT: MS have been offered Masonry. We can't trade Monotheism yet anyway as we only teched it this turn

We still don't know what MS are teching?!?:( Maybe they have slider at 0% while waiting for us to gift Monotheism. I will repeat that if they continue to ignore our questions, maybe we should consider putting time pressure language in some of our communiques to MS like, "if we dont hear from you in X days we will assume that you are OK with this trade we are making." Let them answer us back and say "No according to the treaty you have to wait for our permission." If they don't complain, what is the harm?

I just don't like it that MS is holding up our tech trades. This time, I am mostly OK with waiting, but not every time if they are going to just ignore us...

Here's the latest proposal combining combining cav scout's beaker tallies with my wording (from the Team Cav embassy thread). I've made some style changes to cav scout's table, included reminders about trades we're attempting and also reworked the message so it can be sent to both Team Cav and the Mad Ones. It's quite long so it's in the spoiler.
Dear Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists,

We are trying to put together some formal tech goals for our alliance. We would like to get literature, Team Cav has said they want civil service, and the Mad Scientists want theology. We'd like to work towards these goals and also try to bring the contributed beakers into better balance.

So here is a recap of of the tech trades within the TTA:
(beaker cost is from the generic tech table to keep it simple)

KAZ-
40 Hunting (still to be given)
80 Masonry (given in advance, not part of any trade)
100 Animal Husbandry
120 Writing
300 Alphabet
640:science: Total

CAV-
60 Priesthood
80 Meditation
300 Monarchy
440:science: Total

MS-
100 Sailing
100 Polytheism
200 Iron Working
400:science: Total

We propose the following:

KAZ-
120 Monotheism
350 Code of Laws
300 Aesthetics
770:science: Total

CAV-
250 Mathematics
800 Civil Service
1050:science: Total

MS-
500 Theology
450 Metal Casting
950:science: Total

Techs will be gifted as soon as they are discovered.

We think this is a fair deal because the total contributed by each team is:
KAZ- 1410:science: Total
CAV- 1490:science: Total
MS- 1350:science: Total

Does this plan sound reasonable to Team Cav and the Mad Scientists? If either Team Cav or Kaz complete a trade with SANCTA for metal casting we'll have to substitute something for MS - maybe currency? Also, we are pursuing the possibility of obtaining archery and horseback riding from Saturn. We realize any tech trades need the approval of all three TTA members and we fully expext any of these techs gained through trade to be shared with all TTA members.

donsig of Kazakhstan

PS - Here's the note we're sending to Saturn. We need approval from you for these trades!Hi Team Saturn,

We have a specific tech trade proposal for you:

We gift Sailing (100:science:) once the deal is signed.
You tech Archery (60:science:) and gift it to us the turn after you finish it.
You tech Horseback Riding (250:science:) and trade it with us for Iron Working (200:science:).

Total: 300 :science: Kaz, 310 :science: Saturn
You get sailing immediately from us for the price of 10 extra beakers at the conclusion of the deal. We'd want you to beeline your techs at the best possible tech rate.

donsig of KazakhstanAny objections to sending this to Team Cav and MS?

@Sommerswerd: If MS continues to be uncommunicative we can talk to Team Cav about appropriate action within TTA.

I would say send it...

However, see my comments in the Saturn and Cavalieros threads about beaker costs...:)

Just a minor correction-> the tech name is Literature not Literacy.

Just a minor correction-> the tech name is Literature not Literacy.

Fixed that.

Message sent to MS team email:Dear Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists,

We are trying to put together some formal tech goals for our alliance. We would like to get literature, Team Cav has said they want civil service, and the Mad Scientists want theology. We'd like to work towards these goals and also try to bring the contributed beakers into better balance.

So here is a recap of of the tech trades within the TTA:
(beaker cost is from the generic tech table to keep it simple)

KAZ-
40 Hunting (still to be given)
80 Masonry (given in advance, not part of any trade)
100 Animal Husbandry
120 Writing
300 Alphabet
640:science: Total

CAV-
60 Priesthood
80 Meditation
300 Monarchy
440:science: Total

MS-
100 Sailing
100 Polytheism
200 Iron Working
400:science: Total

We propose the following:

KAZ-
120 Monotheism
350 Code of Laws
300 Aesthetics
770:science: Total

CAV-
250 Mathematics
800 Civil Service
1050:science: Total

MS-
500 Theology
450 Metal Casting
950:science: Total

Techs will be gifted as soon as they are discovered.

We think this is a fair deal because the total contributed by each team is:
KAZ- 1410:science: Total
CAV- 1490:science: Total
MS- 1350:science: Total

Does this plan sound reasonable to Team Cav and the Mad Scientists? If either Team Cav or Kaz complete a trade with SANCTA for metal casting we'll have to substitute something for MS - maybe currency? Also, we are pursuing the possibility of obtaining archery and horseback riding from Saturn. We realize any tech trades need the approval of all three TTA members and we fully expext any of these techs gained through trade to be shared with all TTA members.

donsig of Kazakhstan

PS - Here's a note we're sending to Saturn. We need your approval for these trades.Hi Team Saturn,

We have a specific tech trade proposal for you:

We gift Sailing (100:science:) once the deal is signed.
You tech Archery (60:science:) and gift it to us the turn after you finish it.
You tech Horseback Riding (250:science:) and trade it with us for Iron Working (200:science:).

Total: 300 :science: Kaz, 310 :science: Saturn
You get sailing immediately from us for the price of 10 extra beakers at the conclusion of the deal. We'd want you to beeline your techs at the best possible tech rate.

donsig of Kazakhstan

EDIT: I heard from peter grimes and he's been very busy lately. He suggested we use DaveShack or topas as contact points for now.

I followed peter grimes's advice and sent the following pm to DaveShack and topos:

Hi,

I represent Team Kazakhstan in the BtS MTDG. I had a note from peter grimes (the Mad Scientists main diplomat) that he has been busy and I should try contacting you two.

We recently sent a message to your team's email but I wanted try to get a contact with someone on your team in case quicker communications were ever needed. Are either of you active on your team?

We (and Team Cav, too) really would like to know what you are currently researching. We're trying to establish tech goals for our alliance and also engineer a couple tech trades with SANCTA and Saturn. We need your teams' input and consent on these.

looking forward to hearing from you soon.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Man, these guys are muppets, look what we just received from them:

Greetings to the Cavalieros and Kazakhs,

The Mad Scientists have begun research of Aesthetics.
We realize this may prompt an adjustment to the just-received proposal on research.
Our department heads are discussing our input on various ways the fields of study may be divided.

Regards,
DaveShack, Mad Scientist

Bah...well they are going for great library as well I guess....no matter we will get there faster :)

That's quite silly on their part, they'll be teching something they could get from us... oh well, their loss!!

MS level of communication is really poor though. If we were to try and wriggle out of a pact with them, and go with Saturn instead, what would be the consequences?

Option 1: breaking treaty, just ditching them ASAP
Option 2: waiting till treaty expires and then not renewing it with them and brining Saturn on board

On a comedy note, how frustrated are SANCTA going to be if the only ally they are left with are MS??

They could be TATH (The Alliance of the Tortoise and the Hare)

This was my original proposal, give me credit for that, to marry the beauty and the beast into a wedlock of unmitigated disaster. namely the Sancta MS alliance. This way, MS could be the military target of Cav, not us, and we could gobble up Sancta with the help of Saturn.

I'd rather incorporate Saturn and isolate SANCTA.

Well, if you recall, I was also quite keen on having Saturn as an ally but geography just determined that they would be the last civ we would make contact with. I'm sure I've also previously joked about the mismatch in styles of MS and SANCTA.

Having MS on board now hasn't been all bad as they've been in touch with SANCTA for a while and had they not been in an alliance with us they would already be collaborating with SANCTA.

And Provo, I've given you plenty of bashing when you've come out with a whopper so to balance things out I think I should point out the following:
I warned against MS from day one.
I think with Husch, in many ways inept as the Mad Scientists leader, we would be better off without working hard to cooperate technology plans and so on with them. I foresee massive coordination problems with the aptly named Mad Scientists. We need to consider between Sancta and Saturn, depending on strategic positioning.

:)

MS is doing aesthetics because Team Cav suggested it to them because Kaleb suggested that to Team Cav. We need to get a message off to MS fast and we must also decide whether we will continue researching it or we want MS to do it.

I have send this to their team email and as a pm to DaveShack:

Greeting Mad Scientists,

There has been a mix-up in communications and now we are both working on aesthetics. :( We apologize for this since we played a hand it. We would like to decide quickly which of us will actually finish this tech so the other can move on to something else. Would you please tell us how much you've invested in this tech already and how soon you would finish it? Also, are their any other techs you'd rather be researching? We know you want theology but we've heard rumors that you'd like calendar as well.

Please get back to us as soon as possible.

Thanks,
donsig of Kazakhstan

I wish MS could tell us these things!!

IIRC I did speak with Niklas about MS doing Aest but we needed an ETA from them. It was in no way a proposal.

And that was ages ago too, when we first told Cav we were thinking of Aest.

I don't mind MS doing Aest, but how long will they take?? This lack of communication from them won't do.

I got a tech we can trade to MS : "Lobotomy" for "Aesthetics", how is that for a trade?

I got a tech we can trade to MS : "Lobotomy" for "Aesthetics", how is that for a trade?

That's not fair to them Provo. They are doing aesthetics because we (indirectly) asked them to. We got this note in our team email:

I'm almost late for a meeting so this will have to be a quick note.
We have invested 58 beakers, with approximately 11 turns to go.
How much do you have invested?

Regards, DaveShack of the Mad Scientists

Well then, should we go ahead with Civil Service?

Hmm, we'll have both Aesthetics and Literature quicker than they get Aesthetics even though they've already done more than 10% of it.

Why couldn't they have said any of this to us earlier :cry:

Lets tell them we can get Aesthetics much faster and ask them to tech something else. If they say no then to H@## with them. Let's just tech it ourselves since :king: says we can get Lit faster than they can get Aesthetics.

It sucks but what else can we do? Wait for them to get Aesthetics? They will take too long... AND what do we tech then?:(

I say we tech Aesthetics if we can get both it and lit before they can get Aesthetics.

What should we recommend that they tech. I would say Metal Casting - but as we are still negotiating that issue maybe currency would be better. It will take them forever but will still be useful.

Ok, so how's this for a reply to MS:

Hi Mad Scientists,

Thanks for getting back to us so quickly with the aesthetics numbers. We can finish aesthetics in 5 turns so we'd like to go ahead and finish it. We apologize for our part in the lack of communication that led to this and hope you'll forgive us, but would you please research something else? We've sent along a previous proposal though it has not yet been ratified. Currency or calender may benefit the alliance more than metal casting since there is a distinct possibility our alliance will acquire metal casting from SANCTA for alphabet. This is not a done deal yet since neither of our teams has sanctioned it yet. Team Cav proposed the deal so we assume they approve of it. Do the Mad Scientists approve of an alphabet (from Team Cav) for metal casting (from SANCTA) deal? Team Cav would then share metal casting with both our teams.

We've also proposed trading sailing and iron working to Saturn for archery and harse back riding. We would of course turn archery and horseback riding over to you and Team Cav. Do you approve of this deal? Team Cav has okayed it so we're just waiting on word from you.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

I think that works

I think that's good too.

They should probably go for calendar for their own benefit if what cav say about their land is true.

Sent the proposed message to the MS team email:Hi Mad Scientists,

Thanks for getting back to us so quickly with the aesthetics numbers. We can complete aesthetics in 5 turns so we'd like to go ahead and finish it. We apologize for our part in the lack of communication that led to this and hope you'll forgive us, but would you please research something else? We've sent along a previous proposal though it has not yet been ratified. Currency or calender may benefit the alliance more than metal casting since there is a distinct possibility our alliance will acquire metal casting from SANCTA for alphabet. This is not a done deal yet since neither of our teams has sanctioned it yet. Team Cav proposed the deal so we assume they approve of it. Do the Mad Scientists approve of an alphabet (from Team Cav) for metal casting (from SANCTA) deal? Team Cav would then share metal casting with both our teams.

We've also proposed trading sailing and iron working to Saturn for archery and horse back riding. We would of course turn archery and horseback riding over to you and Team Cav. Do you approve of this deal? Team Cav has okayed it so we're just waiting on word from you.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Well, I think it's time to write to the Mad Ones again.

Dear Mad Scientists,

We assume you've been barricaded in your laboratories working feverishly on your new inventions. We have proposed the following tech trades and would like your consent (per our treaty) to move ahead with them. They are:

Alphabet (from Kaz or Cav) to SANCTA for metal casting.

Iron working and sailing from Kaz to Saturn for archery and horseback riding.
Polytheism and monarchy from Kaz to Saturn for compass.

Any techs gained from these trades would be shared with your team and Team Cav. We would also like to know where your research stands. We are trying to negotiate tech goals for our alliance (per our treaty) but we have lost track of what you are researching now and your future plans. Team Cav is researching civil service. We are doing aesthetics and literature. After that we may do currency but we need some input from you and Team Cav.

Given the prospective trades and what we are working on now, what research path is best for you to follow?

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

Sent this note to the Mad Ones about the SANCTA proposal:

Greetings Mad Scientists,

We've not heard from you in ages. You guys really should get out of the lab once in a while!

We have heard back from SANCTA. The Ninjas want to trade metal casting to us for alphabet and either polytheism or masonry. We would have to agree not to trade MC away until turn 100 and also agree not to build the Colossus. If we included polytheism in the deal SANCTA would agree not to trade it away or build the Great Library or Parthenon until turn 100. My team hasn't discussed the SANCTA proposal yet but I thought it would be prudent to get your team considering the deal since we'd like your consent as a TTA partner.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Hmm, we haven't said anything to MS about the Saturn deal have we??

No we haven't. I composed the last message to MS right in gmail and copied it here. If I had come here first I would have included stuff from the message I had proposed earlier (which no one commented on).

I'm happy for you to go ahead and pass messages to MS.

Where is the signed version of our treaty with MS? We should update that into the stickied foreign treaties thread.

We have received anote from the Mad Ones:

Hello

sry for delay. Thx for mono.
We 've now researched calendar. can we get CoL and Alpha from you
I'm not uptodate with our understanding about the tech-trade-treaty: can you give me the understanding and your momentary research-goal.


sincerely
HUSch MS

Shoud we write back and tell them we're not up to dat eon the tech part of the treaty., too? :mischief:

Can we give them CoL and alpha? I suggest we do. We can tell them we are researching currency and Team Cav is doing civil service. We should also tell them we have literature and aesthetics. What do we want them to research?

I think that all makes sense.

Our team's second preference was for construction - so that would be a sensible ask.

Yea lets give them the techs take Calendar and ask for construction next..

I'm fine with that too

Sent this to their team gmail:

Greetings Mad Scientists,

We are in the dark about our current tech goals, too, since Team Cav has stopped negotiating a formal addendum to our treaty. We are a bit dismayed at this but we carry on. We do know they are researching civil service.

We are currently researching currency.

We'd like to suggest you research construction. Please let us knows if this fits in with your plans.

We will send CoL and alphabet for calender as you request.

Thanks,
donsig of Kazakhstan

Should we send a copy of this to Team Cav? Oh, and would the turn player please send the techs or offer the trade. I'll put a reminder in the tactics and strategy thread.

Gifted CoL and Alphabet to MS, asked them to gift us Calendar.

They informed us in game that they are now allocating espionage points against us to see our demographics.... hmmmmmm :huh:

I think we should offer to tell them our respective demographic figures each turn in exchange for theirs. This way they don't have to waste any espy points on one of their good "Allies." Lets remove the demographics pretext and see if they still want to allocate points against us.

So they are spying on us.

Yes, let's share demographics with them. Are we still putting these into a spreadsheet to share with Team Cav?

MS gave us Calendar. They are still putting full espy points against us... can we get them to lay off?

No, it helps add to a pretext for ditching our alliance with them later :)

They said they just wanted to view our demographics - that is not a huge problem. If they do not reallocate in a few turn then we have a problem.

Team MS are researching Construction and will have it ready around T98-99

Proposed note to the Mad Ones:

Dear Mad Scientists,

We are in urgent need of construction and we believe you are researching it now. When will you have this tech? We have had to stop our researches into currency in order to pursue metal casting. We will share MC with you per our treaty.

We are having some difficulties with SANCTA and any intel you can give us on them would be appreciated. Also, will you be lowering your espionage points against us once you can see our demographics?

donsig of Kazakhstan

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

Ok by me :)

Sounds ok.

They've already told us lately that they are doing Const with an ETA of T98. Perhaps we could rephrase slightly to ask for their latest ETA??

They've already told us lately that they are doing Const with an ETA of T98. Perhaps we could rephrase slightly to ask for their latest ETA??

When did they tell us? Our last note from them (May 15) told us they finished calender. It didn't have an ETA for construction. :confused:

Proposed note to the Mad Ones:

Dear Mad Scientists,

We are in urgent need of construction and Kaleb tells us you will have this tech on turn 98. Is this correct or do you have an update? We have had to stop our researches into currency in order to pursue metal casting. We will share MC with you per our treaty.

We are having some difficulties with SANCTA and any intel you can give us on them would be appreciated. Also, will you be lowering your espionage points against us once you can see our demographics?

donsig of Kazakhstan

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

Message in previous post has been sent to Mad Scientists' gmail.

This was in our mail

Dear ally Kazakhstan

1. Now is the beginning of turn 500 BC and we need 2 turns for construction, that is you can get it 450 BC.

2. Another question, you 've trouble with SAN and they 've declared war against our ally Cav. I don't understand that.

3. We 'll stop collect Esp Points against you, when we see the demo-pictures.

HUSch a mad scientist

Can we get confirmation that SANCTA and Team Cav are at war?

No they are not at war, I don't know what MS are on about.

Well, we didn't say anything to give them that idea. Should we send a copy of this on to Team Cav?

Well, they are mad after all...

Very good they are getting Construction. giving Saturn are turning out to be dodgy I think we need to try and build up a friendship with Husch and co.

MS proved quite reliable this time and have given us Construction (woohoo!)

I've sent this note to Husch:

Greetings Mad Scientist,

Thank you for sending us Construction. It will be very helpful for us.

We are researching Metal Casting and should have it on turn 102. Let us know when you want it from us.

Have you already decided what you want to tech next?

Please talk with us before you make a final decision, we would like to coordinate our plans with you.

We should say we are also invested in currency and that we plan to pick that up next. It would be pointless for them to start it as we will likely still be able to finish it before them.

I believe Cav also have some beakers invested in Currency.

Update: it's on 19 beakers

Little note: MS have Ivory in their territory :D

Would they be willing to trade ivory for gold? That could be useful!

MS is probably best off going 100% gold for a few turns. Until we finish MC and Cav get CS.

Any idea what MS is up to?

Little note: MS have Ivory in their territory :D

This is note a little note this is game changing event :D

One more reason to go HBR asap and of course ask them to give us that ivory for a while...

I sent a message to MS and got a reply:

Hi gents,

We haven't heard back from you yet about what your next will be (ie what you're doing now).

We would really love it if you could go for HBR as SANCTA are researching it and we'd like to be able to get HAs of our own.

We are teching Metal Casting and Cav are teching Currency.

Our ETA on MC is T101/102 - would you like to receive it straight away?

Just checked: HBR est'd completion in 5 turns (from 425BC)

Copied from the Team Cav embassy thread.Proposed note to Team Cav and MS:

Greetings Team Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists,

We are dismayed that Saturn has rejected our in game offer of math for feudalism per our original agreement with them but we're also happy that SANCTA will not be getting math from us (via Saturn).

We'd like to propose that the next tech goals for our alliance be machinery, feudalism and paper. We're not sure who should tech what so if you are in agreement with the three techs please give us some suggestions as to who should research what. If either of you prefer different tech goals please advise so we can discuss and resolve the matter.

We are quite interested in researching music soon in order to get the Great Artist, which we feel we will need to help us with our little SANCTA problem. Neither S&S have aesthetics yet so there is no rush, but once S&S have aesthetics we'd like your consent to begin music right away.

Please reply soon so we can solidify the next round of tech goals.

donsig of Kazakstan

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc.

Good. I would just add that we have Metal Casting so they can just ask it from is whenever they want it.

I would not like to include paper in our tech goals. We are at war, why research paper now? We should be beelining to guilds to gain the military advantage.

paper = trade routes = a much faster tech pace.

We cannot start on guilds until we have machinery. So while we tech machinery what can we do to speed our tech pace? Getting trade routes vip map trading seems pretty sensible to me.

Also map trading will greatly facilitate any military aid.

From the Team Cav embassy thread:
OK, so we're split on whether to include music or not. We've decided we want to tech machinery and have one of the others do feudalism. Sommers wants to through out paper but doesn't suggest what to replace it with. We need three tech goals because we have three teams researching. So I'll leave paper in. Kaleb wants us to tell them we have metal casting. Here's the revised proposed note:

Greetings Team Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists,

We are dismayed that Saturn has rejected our in game offer of math for feudalism per our original agreement with them but we're also happy that SANCTA will not be getting math from us (via Saturn).

We have metal casting and are prepared to pass it (and any other techs not already given) whenever you want them. Just ask and ye shall recieve. We'd like to propose that the next tech goals for our alliance be machinery, feudalism and paper. We would like to research machinery. If either of you prefer different tech goals please advise so we can discuss and resolve the matter. If these are acceptable them will one of you research paper (so we can trade maps and open trade routes) and the other feudalism? We're not sure who should do which and we're hoping to hear your views soon.

We are quite interested in researching music soon in order to get the Great Artist, which we feel we will need to help us with our little SANCTA problem. Neither S&S have aesthetics yet so there is no rush, but once S&S have aesthetics we'd like your consent to begin music right away.

We are growing quite concerned regarding the ninja wonder building program and hope the three of us can counter it.

Please reply soon so we can solidify the next round of tech goals.

donsig of Kazakstan

I considered adding something about the Saturn note but decided against it as we need to focus on the techs goals first. I must work today so if this note is acceptable someone can feel free to gmail it to both Team Cav and the Mad Ones.

Throw out Paper... not "through" out Paper... Sommers wants to throw out Paper. At any rate, I don't neccesarily want to throw out paper, I just don't want us to research it. We need to research a military tech... prefferably Machinery... OK?

Whenever you're threw throwing out the paper let us know Sommers.

Ok this was sent to both Team Cav and MS:Greetings Team Cavaleiros and Mad Scientists,

We are dismayed that Saturn has rejected our in game offer of math for feudalism per our original agreement with them but we're also happy that SANCTA will not be getting math from us (via Saturn).

We have metal casting and are prepared to pass it (and any other techs not already given) whenever you want them. Just ask and ye shall recieve. We'd like to propose that the next tech goals for our alliance be machinery, feudalism and paper. We would like to research machinery. If either of you prefer different tech goals please advise so we can discuss and resolve the matter. If these are acceptable them will one of you research paper (so we can trade maps and open trade routes) and the other feudalism? We're not sure who should do which and we're hoping to hear your views soon.

We are quite interested in researching music soon in order to get the Great Artist, which we feel we will need to help us with our little SANCTA problem. Neither S&S have aesthetics yet so there is no rush, but once S&S have aesthetics we'd like your consent to begin music right away.

We are growing quite concerned regarding the ninja wonder building program and hope the three of us can counter it.

Please reply soon so we can solidify the next round of tech goals.

donsig of Kazakstan

I think you forgot the :sarcasm: Don ;)

Darn, I'd thought I'd get a better come back from you on that one Sommers. And drat, I forgot to remove the line about the wonders from those messages I sent. Sorry guys. My only excuse is I was up till 4 am playing :bts: so I was quite tired.

I thought you didn't have :bts:... How's that for a comeback?

One thing me may want to suggest to MS is for them to build Statue of Zeus.

It will be good to prevent SANCTA from having it as they have ivory and if later on Cav make war with MS it will also slow them up...

One thing me may want to suggest to MS is for them to build Statue of Zeus.

It will be good to prevent SANCTA from having it as they have ivory and if later on Cav make war with MS it will also slow them up...

Good idea! We could suggest it to them together with a deal to swap Aesthetics for HBR.

We got this message from MS:

Greetings Teams Kazakhstan and Cavalieros,

It looks like Saturn got math on their own, or they traded with SANCTA.

What about having MS trade with Saturn? We give CS, they give Feudalism & Archery.
To make a trade of that nature we'd need your approval. We'll probably approach them now
to find out if they have an interest. If you don't approve we can arrange for talks to break down. ;)

If we manage to get Feudalism via trade then that would click the tech goal to the right.

Have we previously discussed the remaining religion techs? Theology and Philosophy are available.

Regards,
DaveShack the Mad Scientist

I think I'd rather not have Feudalism than for S&S to have Civil Service :eek:

I think I'd rather not have Feudalism than for S&S to have Civil Service :eek:

Agreed. It would be a big mistake to allow S&S Civil Service. We need to maintain that advantage over them for as long as possible.

Proposed reply:

Greetings DaveShack The Mad Scientist,

Hello old friend. I always suspected you were a bit Mad. :lol: We are happy to hear from you and your team. We would prefer it if you did not trade civil service to S&S (and from this point on we should think of Saturn and SANCTA as one team) as it would only help the ninja war effort. We prefer that either your team or Cavaleiros tech feudalism and make S&S work for their own techs. This is where we will realize the true advantage of the TTA. With three teams teching together against two we will prevail. Once our alliance has paper we can trade maps and open trade routes which will increase our tech margin over S&S even more! So we kindly ask that you not trade with S&S but research either paper or feudalism. (We haven't heard back from Cavaleiros about any of this yet.)

We've not given much thought to theology or philosophy yet though we have no designs on either right now. If you are considering researching one of these techs to obtain a religion we have an alternate suggestion. Once we have paper and consolidated maps we should be able to send you a missionary. An alternate idea is for you to send a boat to us (going in a counter-clockwise route). This would not only open trade routes we could load a missionary on it for you.

Our team would like to suggest that your team build the Statue of Zeus. We would rather you have the benefits of that wonder than SANCTA. Also, would it be possible some time in the future to borrow your ivory if we need to train elephants for our war effort?

Finally, we will be sending archery to you at the first opportunity. I am not sure why it hasn't been sent to you already. Perhaps we were still trying to disguise the depth of our trading relationship? There is no need for that now.

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan

I went out on a limb here and made some suggestions we haven't discussed yet. So, now's a good time to discuss them. Please also suggest edits and revisions to the proposed note.

One quick question...

Are MS researching HBR? If not, they should.

Good note - all would add is to ask what MS's current tech progress is.

Also I think Team Cav may want Zeus - the free monuments from Stonehenge will help with that. For that reason I would rather that MS get Zeus as it will better balance the teams.

MS are teching HBR. We need to tell Cav that we are already teching Machinery btw so they know what to tech next.

Also I think Team Cav may want Zeus - the free monuments from Stonehenge will help with that. For that reason I would rather that MS get Zeus as it will better balance the teams.

Yes, you are right on the money regard the Zeus wonder. And MS should appreciate the fact we are looking out for them. :)

Proposed reply:

Greetings DaveShack The Mad Scientist,

Hello old friend. I always suspected you were a bit Mad. :lol: We are happy to hear from you and your team. We would prefer it if you did not trade civil service to S&S (and from this point on we should think of Saturn and SANCTA as one team) as it would only help the ninja war effort. We prefer that either your team or Cavaleiros tech feudalism and make S&S work for their own techs. This is where we will realize the true advantage of the TTA. With three teams teching together against two we will prevail. Once our alliance has paper we can trade maps and open trade routes which will increase our tech margin over S&S even more! So we kindly ask that you not trade with S&S but research either paper or feudalism. (We haven't heard back from Cavaleiros about any of this yet.)

We've not given much thought to theology or philosophy yet though we have no designs on either right now.

Our team would like to suggest that your team build the Statue of Zeus. We would rather you have the benefits of that wonder than SANCTA, who also have Ivory. We will of course send you Aesthetics when you want to make a start on this wonder.

Also, would it be possible some time in the future to borrow your ivory if we need to train elephants for our war effort?

Finally, we will be sending archery to you at the first opportunity. I am not sure why it hasn't been sent to you already. Perhaps we were still trying to disguise the depth of our trading relationship? There is no need for that now.

Regards,
donsig of KazakhstanThey already have hinduism btw - they are interested in founding Christianity or Taoism for shrine benefits I presume.

We should also ask for the latest ETA on HBR.

I suggest we tell them that it is OK to tech philosophy (on the path to liberialism)....that will make them happy and give them a religion. Can we get Cav to get feudalism?

Let's hold off on agreeing to them doing philosophy. We can do that in the next round of talks if need be. I'll sent the latest Kaleb edited proposal today unless someone objects in the next few hours.

Denying religions to SANCTA and Saturn would be good. I would support MS going for Philosophy soon. We can also offer them gold for ivory (if CAV is ok with this).

Ivory is what we need most not feudalism...if going for philosophy will make them happy, then lets make them happy and lets get our ivory so we can start building elephants!

If we add a line saying they should go for philosophy if they want then we're giving that up without first getting them to agree to letting us have ivory. Shoudl we add in a concrete proposal of gold for ivory along with our consent that they bo philosophy?

Shoudl we add in a concrete proposal of gold for ivory along with our consent that they bo philosophy? I would be in favor of that. Maybe even suggest that we were thinking of getting Philo to pressure them to offer Ivory for Gold, instead of declaring "we have no designs on it". Why should they offer us ivory for not teching Philo, when we were not going to tech it anyway? This would not even be dishonest (saying that we were considering teching Philo) since we really were after Philo at one point.

...the only small problem of course being that we can't trade resources with MS at the moment!

Paper would fix that.

Paper would fix that.

True but we need Machinery!

True but we need Machinery!

We need ivory more than machinery, that is why maybe team Cav going for paper if MS agree to give us ivory is propably best.

Btw: Cav are going for Paper

Sent this to MS. Made some changes according to the comments made in this thread.Greetings DaveShack The Mad Scientist,

Hello old friend. I always suspected you were a bit Mad. :lol: We are happy to hear from you and your team. We would prefer it if you did not trade civil service to S&S (and from this point on we should think of Saturn and SANCTA as one team) as it would only help the ninja war effort. We prefer that a TTA member tech feudalism and make S&S work for their own techs. This is where we will realize the true advantage of the TTA. With three teams teching together against two we will prevail. Once our alliance has paper we can trade maps and open trade routes which will increase our tech margin over S&S even more! So we kindly ask that you not trade with S&S but think about researching feudalism. We are teching machinery and Team Cav is resreaching paper. While we are on the subject of Saturn, do you htink it is worthwhile trying to entice them away from SANCTA and into the TTA?

We've not given much thought to theology or philosophy yet though we have no designs on either right now. If you are considering researching one of these techs to obtain a religion of your own we would just caution you that SANCTA might be trying to get to philosophy.

Our team would like to suggest that your team build the Statue of Zeus. We would rather you have the benefits of that wonder than SANCTA or anyone else. Also, would it be possible some time in the future to borrow your ivory if we need to train elephants for our war effort? Once Team Cav shares paper with us we should be able to trade maps and then resources.

Finally, we will be sending archery to you at the first opportunity. I am not sure why it hasn't been sent to you already. Perhaps we were still trying to disguise the depth of our trading relationship? There is no need for that now.

Regards,
donsig of Kazakhstan

Edit: Also sending this note to DaveShack as a pm.

btw MS have teched HBR and I've sent a trade proposal of Archery for HBR

shall I sent them a note saying sorry for not giving Archery sooner (I couldn't log in before)

do we need HBR this turn? shall I wait until they give it to us before ending turn?

Only reason to wait would be if we want to build a Horse Archer or stable in Aktau?

I don't think they would do a trade on OUR turn (unless we pre-arranged a trade with them through chat or something like that). Whoever logs in will prob reject the trade until conferring with rest of the team... So I would say we need to wait for their turn before they will transfer HBR to us.

well if that's the case, our turn is done - it can turn roll if I can't get into it tomorrow

they are planning on giving HBR to us though

I ended the turn. Did not do anything else... Except I did notify UN that our turn was done and next team was up.:D

eh? I was waiting to get HBR from MS so we could start on an HA, we've started on a chariot now instead then. guess we need them too

I was saying "if it's the case that we decide we don't want HBR this turn we can end turn now..."

got to login now to take screenshots...

I ended the turn. Did not do anything else... Except I did notify UN that our turn was done and next team was up.:D

Can you please not do turns?

If the turn player cannot make it he should post and then someone else can do it,

Can you please not do turns?

If the turn player cannot make it he should post and then someone else can do it, Uhhh, Thank you for your offer, but I decline to accept.:) Futhermore, I consider that issue closed.:D Thanks again for asking, and especially for saying please! :lol:

Almost for got the :sarcasm:

Hi there, you have OB with SANCTA and Saturn. Have either of these two mapped out a sea-route to you?

If they do then they will be benefitting more from the OB (especially SANCTA) than you are. Please can you close borders with SANCTA if this is the case. They have Great Lighthouse now but Saturn only have 4 cities, so they won't be benefitting much from this wonder if they are the only civ they can trade with.

And do you have plans to build Statue of Zeus? If not please let us know, but we would prefer it if you were the civ to get this.I've sent this by PM to MS to clarify their position on trade.

Should we ask the Mad Ones about the rumor Memphus is spreading about an MS attack on Saturn?

Got a pm from Husch:

MS are 7 turns from Feudalism and aren't interested in Stat of Zeus - they also have no monuments.

Sent this to MS via PM:

Dear Mad Scientists,

Sancta have a big advantage over us in land and production capabilities, we feel that the only way to release this situation is by taking or razing Angle (the barb city they captured and is boxing us in).

To do that we have to act quicly before they start getting elephants and catapults.

We feel that with your support (in gold) we can have a stack of 8 maces, 4 catas and 4-5 mounted units ready to invade in 10 turns.

We think this will be enough force to capture or raze angle.

To do this we will need about 5-600 gold from both you and MS in the next 9 turns.

We need 130 gold in the next 2 turns (to complete Machinery) and about 450 gold in the next 7 turns.

Please consider seriously to help us do some damage to Sancta as we feel this will be the only chance we will have for a long time to come.

Sommerswerd

"from both you and MS" :p

(thanks for sending the note btw :goodjob:)

I've sent a chase up message to MS as we need to hear back from them:

Hello Scientists!

We haven't heard back from you about our request for Gold. We do need Feudalism, but not urgently. What is more urgent is the chance to take a key city off from SANCTA.

If you can help us with Gold we will:

a) be able to research Machinery faster (and of course give this tech to you)

b) be able to upgrade units quickly

We've already received 60:gold: from Team Cav, can you send us a similar amount this turn please?

We will of course not forget any such gestures and also want to remind both of our allies that so far we have contributed the most technology to the alliance.

Once Cav discover Paper and we are able to trade with each other, what resources are you most in need of? Could we have your ivory in exchange for something else?

Regards,

Kaleb

We have trade routes with MS now...can we send a gold for ivory deal in game?

I already pm'd them to ask what they needed in exchange for Ivory, not heard back

What do we have that we can give them? I thought we sent our extra gold resource to Team Cav?

MS haven't said what they want yet! :(

The latest from the great communicators:

Hello Scientists!

We haven't heard back from you about our request for Gold. We do need Feudalism, but not urgently. What is more urgent is the chance to take a key city off from SANCTA.

If you can help us with Gold we will:

a) be able to research Machinery faster (and of course give this tech to you)

b) be able to upgrade units quickly

We've already received 60? from Team Cav, can you send us a similar amount this turn please?

We will of course not forget any such gestures and also want to remind both of our allies that so far we have contributed the most technology to the alliance.

Once Cav discover Paper and we are able to trade with each other, what resources are you most in need of? Could we have your ivory in exchange for something else?

Regards,

Kaleb

Hello
I haven't get a PN from you about money, the last was a question about oB with SAN.

Btw
We haven't enough money now,

Regards

HUSch/MS

Send them an in game trade screen...ivory for gold....saying can we borrow for 10 turns to build some elephants since we are at war?

I'll keep pestering Husch until he says what they want for it. If we have Ivory we may as well get Stat of Zeus in Haz as well. That will be basically +200% on production

Statue gives artist points...do we want that?

It would be nice to have....but not in capital IMO. maybe Pavlodar after forge.

I think building it in Haz would be OK. It will dilute our GP pool a bit but will also increase overall GP production. And it will build much faster there.

But either way we should hold off on building it until we feel that we have a strong enough military.

the sooner we build it thought the sooner SANCTA get double war weariness. especially useful if we are actually killing some of their units!

btw I got this pm from Husch:

Hello
1. We need for at least 2 turns the luck (ie happiness) of ivory, so I 'll give you ivory for wine.
2. We 'll reduce our research and have some money for you in your turn.

I 'll play in 4 hours and look here again in 12-13 hours, so you can give an answer and we can deal.

HUSch

Great! Should mean we can get our first elephant on our coming turn with the chop :)

That sounds great - ivory for wine is good.

How quick could we build the Statue of Zeus in Haz?

Messages sent and received by Husch:

Hello Kaleb/cav scout

Do you need some money this turn, then replies so.
We can send 55 this turn. I 'll look here in 15 hours.

we see your 2 ships like cats near Phoenix, but our warrior Ana sees no way to you. Is there a way from us to you or need we go across SAN-territory?

HUSch mad Scientist

My reply:

Thank you for the offer of help with money. We've gotten the gold we need from Team Cav this turn but we'll need 63 from you next turn if that's ok?

Team Cav will get Paper in 2 turns so your workboat won't need to explore any more as we will give you all of our maps. Could you instead send your workboat East to lookout for any SANCTA ships coming along the coast?

What's your latest estimate on when you think you can get Feudalism? After that would you be willing to run at 0% as we will soon have 2 academies and we can tech faster. We will of course need to talk more closely with you to make sure we are researching techs that you need to as we would be researching for both of us.

Sounds good to me.

Got another PM from MS:

Hello
For your intelligence

Your enemy SAN makes a tech-proposal to us.

Aesthetics and Literature (448 + 299 ) for HBR (373) or 130 .

We will decline, that isn't the question. I'm surprised about the value of for them. 130 for HBR.

btw there is real no way to you, we (warrior Anaxagoras) are near the SAN-town in the north of the mountains near your land.

Good luck
HUSch

This is cool - they have a warrior north of the mountain pass. We should encourage him to explore SANCTA lands for us get with Paper

Interesting - I wonder how much of this is an actual attempt by Sancta to trade for tech vs. an attempt to spread misinformation about their intentions.

They are pretty good on the misinformation front. What do you want to bet they are after HBR now?

I chatted with Husch a bit and they'll use their warrior to map out SANCTA lands. He also told me SANCTA have 4 cities along the coast.

Only 4 coastal cities - that is good. With the G lighthouse they get a big boost for coastal cities. It also means their ability to spam a navy is less than it could be.

Sancta may declare war on MS to kill the warrior and gain xp. Just a thought.

Message from Husch:

Then we will go at drama, I think, one of you has Music so there is no need to make it fast. we can reseach with low rate, but we train a scientist, so there is some research to do.

Ana is at the moment in Ti kuan Yin, I 'll send a picture to your email at the eot. In the moment there is a barbwarrior at nw of town and round some SAN-units, but no unit in the town.

HUSch I think Drama is fine.

Great they have a warrior on TKY! the city is undefended and there is a barb warrior lurking around...

MS is in pretty bad shape. Maybe seeing Team Cav empire will encourage them to grow.

Got this from Husch:

Hello
SAN has closed borders last turn and open again to repelled Ana from TKY to west frontier. He can now goes with permission at their north frontier. So we can give you no infos.

btw
we have til the moment no answer to our proposal of map trade to SAN and Sat.
HUSch

We should ask MS to try and move clockwise around Sancta's territory. If sancta only has the one road (near dragon tears) it would be a great one to cut.

I don't think we should trade our only source of furs to MS for gems.

I would rather we get gems from CAV as soon as they hook them up. They have multiple sources of gems and we are giving them gold for free right now (and trading gold to MS so we have none for ourselves right now). We should keep the furs for ourselves.

I don't think we should trade our only source of furs to MS for gems.

I would rather we get gems from CAV as soon as they hook them up. They have multiple sources of gems and we are giving them gold for free right now (and trading gold to MS so we have none for ourselves right now). We should keep the furs for ourselves.
I agree. If Cavalieros have a happy resource, they should gift it to us.

I send a message to KCD_Swede member of MS to ask for a chat and he basically told me that MS is run solo by Husch for a long time now and that for the last month he is not even reporting back in forum what is happening, so basically their forum is dead and husch is playing solo.

Does anyone know husch? I fear that if we go talk to him about a seperate alliance from Cav that he might be loyal to Cav?

lol... that was funny for some reason.

Good information to know. I don't know him. If no one else does then it would be good if one of us gets to know him.

I seem to get along alright with him in PMs - so I'll try and find a time to chat with him.

How does this sounds as a draft note to MS.

Dear Mad friends

We have not had much direct communications with you, a situation we hope to remedy as the game progresses. As you are probably aware, Team Cav and the Kazakhs have been planning on a military assault against sancta.

We are curious if you have any military intelligence on Saturn and if you have any capacity to strike out against them? While a combined Kazakh Cavaleiros war machine would be quite powerful – it may be more wise to strike our enemy’s weakest partner – Saturn.

Might be a good idea to invite them to join the war party. The thought of Kaz/Cav building a war machine while they don't might make the Mad Ones even crazier.

My thought was that a mixed Cav/MS attack on Saturn might be very useful in hampering Sancta's tech progress.

Proposed message for MS. See text for Team Cav email 1st for context.

Proposed text:

General update. We get Oxford and tech econ next turn. Our plan is to revolt to Theo and Free Markets. Depending on a number of factors we will use the GM for either a golden age or a trade mission. We plan on running 100% tech and going for RP and Rifling. At 100% science this will take about 10 of turns. With a golden age it would take about 7 of turns.

We want to confirm that you will continue to send us gold to maintain our 100% tech rate.

We are also requesting that you send us a large lump sum of gold (I think 1000 gold is a reasonable ask - but how much do they have in reserve right now?). We intend on upgrading our armies and are requesting gold from both you and Team Cav. As you have received a sizable tech benefit from your relatively small turn-by-turn gold gifts thus far - we feel this is a very reasonable request. Also it is more efficient for us to use the GM for a Golden age than for a trade mission. But if we cannot get a sizable amount of gold from you and Team Cav - we will be forced to use the GM for a trade mission.

I would try to phrase the lump sum request and justification a bit differently. How about presenting both plans (golden age with lump sum and fast research versus trade mission with slower research) and ask our allies which they think would be better for the alliance? If they can't make the lump sum contribution then the golden age idea is moot, isn't it?

MS doesn't have any cash for a lump sum. Here is what I sent HUSch:

I am writing to update you on our plans. We get Oxford and tech econ next turn. Our plan is to revolt to Theocracy and Free Markets. Depending on a number of factors we will use the Great Merchant for either a golden age or a trade mission. We plan on running 100% tech and going for Replaceable Parts and Rifling. At 100% science this will take about 10 turns. With a golden age it would take about 7 turns.

We appreciate how you have sent us enough gold to maintain our tech rate at 100%. We would like to ask you now for the maximum amount of gold you can send each turn for the next 10 turns.

We intend on upgrading our armies and are requesting gold from both you and Team Cav. It is more efficient and beneficial for the alliance for us to use the Great Merchant for a Golden age than for a trade mission.

If we can get enough gold from you we can do the golden age. But if we cannot get a sizable amount of gold from you we will be forced to use the GM for a trade mission.

How much gold can you send each turn?

How much gold will ne need now that we have steel and won't have loads of catapults to upgrade?

Response from HUSch:

Hello
We can send money, but we need the civic-techs.

But what is the idea with upgrading of units, this is only of interest? If you 've a fixed war-time with special war-plans. That is the important question.
Cav will play at war from now, you plan war at ... ? War is not the goal of the game, you must have a war-plan first.
When will you make war with what kind of units? Do you plan to win the game with rifles? One must be clear, if you want to upgrade units, you don't research anymore. There is no sense in upgrading and researching new techs for better units. So the Oxford is for nothing, I think. My opinion is, we are better than they, also have we no interest in war.
SAN and Sat have in the moment no real interest in war, perhaps some combats at the frontier.
HUSch ms

I think we send this response.

We are boxed in and in the long term sancta will greatly out produce and out research us. Team Cav can match Sancta in the long term, but unless we expand we will become a marginal team.

We have the opportunity to use superior technology (cannons) to attack and take several Sancta cities. If we wait, Sancta will get rifles and attacking them will be much harder. we have the potential to gain 2-4 cities before Sancta can research and build better defensive units.

We are cooperating with Team Cav on this plan and we are working out the specifics of a battle plan.

Sent this to HUSch:

We can longer make new cities and in the long term sancta will greatly out produce and out research us. Team Cav can match Sancta in the long term, but unless we expand we will become a marginal team.

We have the opportunity to use superior technology (cannons) to attack and take several Sancta cities now. If we wait, Sancta will get rifles and attacking them will be much harder. We have the potential to gain 2-4 cities before Sancta can research and build better defensive units.

We are cooperating with Team Cav on this plan and we are working out the specifics of a battle plan.

Please request any tech you need from us at any time. We have both benefited greatly from the gold you have sent us. If you continue to send the maximum amount of gold we will continue to run at 100% science for everyone's benefit. How much gold can you make per turn running 0% science? And how is your own research going?

Reply from HUSch:

Ok you use the tech gap to SAN for make occupations, Then do it. I don't know much about wars, but this I know, if you make war you must make it totally; especially if you fight against a big enemy.
Our research to music needs ~5-6 turns, we 've request economics for custom houses and change of civics to free market. After music we will request theo and div rights for researching nationalism with a good factor. We can give money 100-150 a turn additional to the 75 you get now.

Btw There is a message in the game log about SAn has many knights, I don't know the importancy about.
You should read it yourself.

We are exploring SAN's east coast with a cara and our warrior and work boat ist there also
HUSch

Seems like they are on board. Share techs as needed.

That is useful that they can send gold - but will that $ need to go to Team Cav to finance their teching towards Nationalism. If yes it should go to Team Cav. If not it should go to us.

Lets work this out with Team Cav - they have a better grasp of English so it will be easier.

CAV won't need any gold from MS. They are saving up for two more turns and then will get Nationalism in 3 turns running 100% science. After that they will be able to give us a decent amount of gold each turn for upgrades.

Got this back from HUSch:

Generally I prefer Steam and railroad (~9.600 netto :science:) as best way to better the innerstate communication, also for more production; the other way to science and oil is not so good for your Bib and it's a long way. We will finish next turn music I think and then we can generate +200 cash/turn for you, we are seeing a barb-town and want to found 2 more cities.

Random idea for a message to MS.

Thanks for the update.

We also wanted to briefly mention one other point - naval exploration. We have been surprised by the lack of Stone and Marble resources on the map and some on our team suspect that an island might contain more resources. Discovering and controlling this island could be critical if late game resources (coal, oil, uranium) are also located off the main continent.

Our navy is pretty tied up at the moment - but if you have extra exploration capacity, please keep us up to date on any discoveries.

I doubt either of our allies would tell us if they discovered a hidden resource island. I certainly wouldn't tell them if we did ;)

I think a better tact would be to offer map trades periodically. If they decline then we know they are hiding something.

Very good point.