after a successful city revolt,
almost every catapult will win against longbows. is this happening in your game?

Spy+catapult can make the whole stack of defence force into . .. .. .. ., then easily we take it by some drafted trash.
trebuchets works well against muskets also.

I have some questions:
1. does PRO trait affects sieage weapons? how?
2. what does city revolt do to a defender? I find it easier to kill Inside a city than Outside.

1. Nope!

2. I think a city revolt will take down all of a cities cultural defences (so not defence bonuses from things like walls, castles and chichen itza), and it will also cut the strength of any stationed defenders by 50%.

Or roughly 50%, I'm not sure.

A culturally induced revolt works like Nickzilla describes. One with a spy only removes the culture defense but does not injure the defenders.

It removes wall defenses too, nick.

I find it easier to kill Inside a city than Outside.
That's because City Raider subtracts from a unit's defensive bonus and can make it go below zero.

after a successful city revolt,
almost every catapult will win against longbows. is this happening in your game?

The first one or two catapults have moderate odds. But once all the defenders in a city are a bit damaged, all of your attacking units whether they be catapults, macemen, trebuchets or even longbows:eek: will win against the weakened defenders. This is more an observation of how important siege units are when taking cities because of their ability to deal collateral damage, than it is about any link between city revolts and catapults specifically.

Using spies or downing the defenses with bombardment is really the same - one just takes longer.

Hey Piece of Mind!
I'm joining your drill IV club after playing the MSVII game with Mao :). Really, when playing protective it does more sence to promote your archery/gunpowder units along the drill line then along the combat one. Say, C2D1 and D3 mech.inf. have the same odds against a gunship, but D3 one has more Exp and more average health upon winning.
(That's also a weird thing, if not a bug, in the game - Gunships do not really ignore Fs's, as stated)

Hey Piece of Mind!
I'm joining your drill IV club after playing the MSVII game with Mao :). Really, when playing protective it does more sence to promote your archery/gunpowder units along the drill line then along the combat one. Say, C2D1 and D3 mech.inf. have the same odds against a gunship, but D3 one has more Exp and more average health upon winning.
(That's also a weird thing, if not a bug, in the game - Gunships do not really ignore Fs's, as stated)

:D I'll always welcome people into the mysterious Drill IV club! I'm glad you too have seen how effective Drill IV units can be.

At the moment I'm trying my best to mathematically show why first strikes are more important when opponents are a bit injured - typically after using siege units. It's hard to argue the case for Drill IV with people who will not change their minds after seeing how crap Drill I is.

Yes, actually I saw somewhere a game who attacked with just trebuchets and longbows, it works.

Even catapults and longbows works.

Here is a good example of a situation where even just D2 will arguably beat D1/C3...

Things to note:
2XP is earned for the drill unit. Only 1XP for the combat unit. The Drill IV unit has only a 10% chance of being damaged, the C3/D1 unit has more than 50% chance of being damaged.

This example is a good one to demonstrate my general tip that when attacking injured units you should use drill units (preferably drill IV). However you should always make sure the value of R is at least 1. There are some exceptions but they are rare.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204291&d=1234975842

Yes, actually I saw somewhere a game who attacked with just trebuchets and longbows, it works.
That game would be here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806
On a side note, how do you show the link as a name rather than a web addy?

Even catapults and longbows works.

Here is a good example of a situation where even just D2 will arguably beat D1/C3...

Things to note:
2XP is earned for the drill unit. Only 1XP for the combat unit. The Drill IV unit has only a 10% chance of being damaged, the C3/D1 unit has more than 50% chance of being damaged.

This example is a good one to demonstrate my general tip that when attacking injured units you should use drill units (preferably drill IV). However you should always make sure the value of R is at least 1. There are some exceptions but they are rare.



My only problem with the drill line is that it works best when you have a strength advantage. D4 may be good for milking GG points, but vs full strength units that are attacking you the Combat line is much more effective.

That game would be here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806
On a side note, how do you show the link as a name rather than a web addy?



My only problem with the drill line is that it works best when you have a strength advantage. D4 may be good for milking GG points, but vs full strength units that are attacking you the Combat line is much more effective.

It doesn't take a strength advantage necessarily - only a ratio advantage. If you are being attacked, first ensure you are in a good position (on forests, or if longbows then on hills too). If you are in enemy territory and can't avoid being on flat ground then you will need to have combat promotion units paired in as well. I'm just putting forward that once you have your stack attacking the city, drill units in the stack should come after the siege. Against full strength units drill promotions are much more comparable to combat promotions and combat will often have the edge - but I think you will find this is only because without combat in these situations you'd be at an R disadvantage.

It's all about how you position your stack really. In any case, I entirely agree drill units should not be the only stack defenders in any situation. The reason I like drill is that they are pretty decent at attacking (after siege) and defending when they really need to. Combat promotions are better at defending when there are no other modifiers and also for attacking without siege or attacking full health units.

Drill units just cannot be used the same way as combat units. Each promotion line has different strengths which must be recognised.

That game would be here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806
On a side note, how do you show the link as a name rather than a web addy?


@ CivCorpse

To change it to a word/name, go to the advanced posting options. Highlight the desired name and then click on the 'Insert Link' button (looks like a globe with an infinity sign in front of it). Then enter the desired url link in the pop up box.

like this (http://http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806)

I modified the above link below by adding in _ so you can see the format of the link:

[_URL="http://[_url]http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806[/url]"]like this_[/URL]

EDIT:
Or refer to this topic discussing the vB Code (http://forums.civfanatics.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode) options

Most early units that can take drill are not the best attackers but gunpowder with it can be nasty. Anyone doubting the drill line might want to try zara and oromo abuse.

Most early units that can take drill are not the best attackers but gunpowder with it can be nasty. Anyone doubting the drill line might want to try zara and oromo abuse.

Oromos can achieve a number of first strikes unavailable to any other unit except navy seals. They also achieve DrillIV with 5xp. A non-protective leader would require 17xp. Or 13xp for a charasmatic leader.
The weakness of the drill line lies in the promotions leading up to DrillIV. Which makes it unattractive for non-protective/charasmatic leaders.

Oromos can achieve a number of first strikes unavailable to any other unit except navy seals. They also achieve DrillIV with 5xp. A non-protective leader would require 17xp. Or 13xp for a charasmatic leader.
The weakness of the drill line lies in the promotions leading up to DrillIV. Which makes it unattractive for non-protective/charasmatic leaders.

Yeah I only use non-pro drill line when I'm so far out in front that I just want to get from city to city with my super tech units as soon as possible.

Even catapults and longbows works.

Here is a good example of a situation where even just D2 will arguably beat D1/C3...

Things to note:
2XP is earned for the drill unit. Only 1XP for the combat unit. The Drill IV unit has only a 10% chance of being damaged, the C3/D1 unit has more than 50% chance of being damaged.

This example is a good one to demonstrate my general tip that when attacking injured units you should use drill units (preferably drill IV). However you should always make sure the value of R is at least 1. There are some exceptions but they are rare.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204291&d=1234975842

I really want that tool you made, if it wasn't for the fact that it's run as a mod...

Oromos can achieve a number of first strikes unavailable to any other unit except navy seals. They also achieve DrillIV with 5xp. A non-protective leader would require 17xp. Or 13xp for a charasmatic leader.
The weakness of the drill line lies in the promotions leading up to DrillIV. Which makes it unattractive for non-protective/charasmatic leaders.

I agree. Drill IV oromos are 4-7 first strikes, unlike Drill IV musketmen which are 3-6 first strikes. But note there are many units that can get 4-7 due to an inherent first strike/s (e.g. longbows, archers).

The real crazy units:
Samurais start with 2FS so they can get 5-8 :eek: An average of 6.5 first strikes is seriously crazy.
Skirmishers and Navy SEALs can get 4-8 due to getting an extra FS chance.

@Yesod, hopefully it will be in BUG before too long.;)

Yeah I only use non-pro drill line when I'm so far out in front that I just want to get from city to city with my super tech units as soon as possible.

If you are willing to invest 4 promotions for DriilIV in order to reduce healing time. Then I suggest C1C2C3 then March. With a Medic3 unit you never need to stop to heal. Suffer a little collateral damage along the way? Who cares it is healed before you know it. DrillIV reduces collateral by 60%. That leaves 40% you still suffer. Which means stopping to heal at some point. C3March just keeps on rolling.

Here is a good example of a situation where even just D2 will arguably beat D1/C3...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204291&d=1234975842

Hi Piece, nice calculator, if you have time, show us the same set of promotions, this time with 6.00 vs 6.00, 6.00 vs 7.00, 6.00 vs 8.00 and 6.00 vs 9.00 instead of 6.00 vs 3.60 :)

Hi Piece, nice calculator, if you have time, show us the same set of promotions, this time with 6.00 vs 6.00, 6.00 vs 7.00, 6.00 vs 8.00 and 6.00 vs 9.00 instead of 6.00 vs 3.60 :)

I will just repeat the point I made in that post: Drill units are better when attacking injured units. If you believed I was trying to say anything other than that the following may not be very useful to you.

I never advise using Drill troops for attack at a ratio less than 1. However, when defenders are reasonably injured, drill troops are even stronger and can be used for amazing odds even at a ratio disadvantage!

Since you asked politlely, I will provide the experiment you asked for. I'll only do the 6 v 6 and 6 v 9 battle. The ones in between you could interpolate sort of... ;)

6v6:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204702&stc=1&d=1235285766

Things to note:
Drill IV unit gets 4XP at 97.5% odds. 15% chance of getting injured.
Combat IV gets 2XP at 90.0% odds. 65% chance of getting injured.

6v9:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204703&stc=1&d=1235285766

Things to note:
Drill II beats Combat IV in this combat! :eek:
Drill IV: 6XP at 88.8% odds, 28% chance of injury.
Combat IV: 4XP at 66.2% odds, 77% chance of injury.


These examples perfectly illustrate how first strikes are very powerful when attacking injured units, even when at a ratio disadvantage!

Does this mean drill beats combat all the time? No, obviously. Drill has strengths that are not often recognised by most players, particularly in attack battles. The key is to injure units first when attacking (or just get an R advantage if full health defenders), and to gain a good defensive position when defending. If you don't do these things then you are not maximising the utility of first strikes.

If you are willing to invest 4 promotions for DriilIV in order to reduce healing time. Then I suggest C1C2C3 then March. With a Medic3 unit you never need to stop to heal. Suffer a little collateral damage along the way? Who cares it is healed before you know it. DrillIV reduces collateral by 60%. That leaves 40% you still suffer. Which means stopping to heal at some point. C3March just keeps on rolling.

I don't START with all 4 promos. If i want to nurse units enough to reliably get more than 1-4 to combat III/march, I'm stopping more than normal/desired in mopup situations. I DO keep some march units when I get to it, and you'll especially see this from the mounted line when I'm playing (you're not taking drill with mounted unless you mod or cheat). I'd rather just have drill so more of my units keep high xp after attacking miserable defenders so I can off the civ in one go.

Drill has strengths that are not often recognised by most players, particularly in attack battles. The key is to injure units first when attacking (or just get an R advantage if full health defenders)

I asked because I wasn't interested in the data from your first post, simply because it is sort of common knowledge.
For example, this guy has described the basic concept of the "clean-up crew" years ago, when you weren't even participating on this board.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tank_warfare.php

But you came up with a nice tool to analyze a wider range of possible situations.
If we are talking promotions, that's what is interesting, finding out the limits and correct field of application.
The data in the second test showing the performace against injured defenders with higher strength is therefore much more valuable.

I asked because I wasn't interested in the data from your first post, simply because it is sort of common knowledge.
For example, this guy has described the basic concept of the "clean-up crew" years ago, when you weren't even participating on this board.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tank_warfare.php


Honestly, I don't think the complete strengths of drill are common knowledge at all. A huge number of posters wouldn't have known how first strikes even work, let alone how they are best used.

I gave examples where they are the strongest promotions to take against injured units, but that is not the extent of their abilities, but you would know this. The linked article was posted well after I was reading these forums (I was a lurker for maybe a year) and I started posting when Civ4 came out). It hardly gives much detail at all about first strikes other than them being useful to clean up damaged units without taking damage. They actually have better XP, attack at better odds than Combat and sometimes even CR when they are used after siege but this wasn't really mentioned. I'm not saying drill tanks aren't useful but IMO units that also benefit from defense modifiers are the best drill units because they can be used in dual-roles.

I don't mean to question your understanding of the combat mechanics - it's just most people are skeptical of the uses for drill I rattle off.


But you came up with a nice tool to analyze a wider range of possible situations.
If we are talking promotions, that's what is interesting, finding out the limits and correct field of application.
The data in the second test showing the performace against injured defenders with higher strength is therefore much more valuable.

Cheers,
I agree the later information is more useful. The first post was really a quick demo without much thought.

More excellent information on the Drill line of promotions, PieceOfMind. Again you have changed my thinking - a rare thing on these boards :)

I have long advocated the strategy of intentionally attacking at moderate odds, say between 90% and 70%, with the intention of getting more exp, and hence more GG points. I often use a mixture of low promotions (like draft troops) and damaged troops to attack at these odds (getting 2 or 3 exp) even when I have other troops that have a 99.9% chance of a win (getting 1 exp). In some games the "limiting resource" is the availabilty of enemy troops to gain experience from. If these are squandered by attacking at high odds that can be wasted opportunity to generate more GGs. That strategy is particularly important for an Imperialistic leader and can produce enough GGs for an overwhelming force of highly promoted troops in the late game.

What your posts show is that it is advantageous to use Drill troops for that purpose. They have low apparent strength (and so get more exp) and at the same time get good odds against any troops that are not immune to FS or who have a lot of FS themselves. So they are a cost effective way of implementing this strategy. I will be adapting my strategy to accomadate this information :). Taking the two parts of the strategy together it is obvious that this is of particular benefit to any Imperialistic, Protective, or Charismatic leaders. This should be of great use to Charlemange, who is a much maligned leader, he should be able to generate Drill 4 troops fairly easily and then get double the GG point benefit in all combats.

it's just most people are skeptical of the uses for drill I rattle off.

I want to know where you find enemies with 20HP armies.

I want to know where you find enemies with 20HP armies.

Bombers, missiles, siege, stronger attack units, ... These are all things which could potentially hurt an enemy before another unit needs to be used. If you send in a destroyer to attack another destroyer, it's not uncommon for the other destroyer to come out with 20HP and you die. Then you can send in a measly privateer with a couple drill promotions to finish off the near-dead unit.

The 20HP situation is merely an example. You get similar results for any level of injury, but the results are most marked the more the unit is injured. At 60HP, combat 4 might be the same as roughly drill 3 rather than drill 2. It's a bit of a scale.

EDIT
By the way, usually when I attack cities upwards of 70% or so of the attacking battles I fight are against injured units. After sending in siege, it's extremely common to be fighting injured defenders. ;)