Premise
In our second installment of the Emperor Tutorial series we will be covering the fundamental tenets of the Cottage Economy. Our first game, The Pyramids based SE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=308986) went really well so the plan is to stick to that template. The focus here is going to be less on "best ball" practices and more on step by step analysis. I do encourage people to take each save and play along to see how they do but I will be playing something of a "control" game to try and keep on task and to clearly show the strategies and tactics in use. Hopefully it's not the only game being played (and hopefully better players than me feel like contributing as well) but it's alright if I end up doing this solo. My CE is not as strong as my SE so I am not anticipating a pre-industrialism win this time but you never know. Regardless I do intend to show a safe and strong path to a CE victory at this difficulty level.


Process
I see this being something of an iterative process. Each segment will take roughly 3-4 days to play and discuss as outlined below:

I'm going to play through some of the game and provide detailed analysis of my decisions along the way.
Other people can also play along and see how far they get. The newer (to Emperor) players can try and follow along and implement the strategy I outline and see how they do compared to me. People are welcome to wildly deviate and we can discuss the merits of such an approach but the goal of the series is to stick to one economic strategy per game.
We will compare/contrast/analyze the decisions made along the way. Just because I chose to do something doesn't make it "right".
We will decide on a path for the next segment and then off we go to implement it.
Rinse/Recycle




The basic premise of the CE is simple. Build cottages in capital, tech CS and turn on Bureaucracy to race to Liberalism and eventually Democracy, and win. We will not be looking for a Great Lighthouse for a TRE, nor the 'mids for Representation. Early war is not out of the question though if the opportunity is there but our real focus is going to be on the economy.


We will be playing Darius I
http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/info_center/leaders/Persia_Darius_I.jpg

You can't ask for a better/easier leader to learn CE with. Organized and Fin will take a load off when it comes to keeping a strong Rex going. His UU is in the "insanely strong" category as well. He starts with Hunting/Agriculture which is ok (I hate hunting, but Agg is good). The UB is about the only thing not worth jumping and cheering for but it's by no means weak and completely worth building everywhere once we get to it. The map is Standard/Epic. Larger and smaller maps have their charm but standard seems to fit most people's needs. Epic I find is simply more forgiving when learning.

The first segment will play from 4000BC->1000BC and we will be looking to start the next segment Thursday evening to be played over the weekend. Please keep any discussions beyond the opening and starting strategy/goals in spoiler tags for any late comers.

Immediate Game Goals (4000BC->1000BC):

Scout for a potential rush target.
Get either horses or metal by 2000BC for barb defense (need horses by 2500BC if rushing)
Start building cottages by 2000BC, sooner if possible. Prioritize river tiles.
Try to get a 10XP unit either fighting barbs or in the rush so we can build HE.
If we choose to rush we probably need to have already taken an enemy capital by 1000BC.
If we don't rush we should have at least 4 expansions and be blocking off territory from the AI to set up a solid Rex for the next segment.



Here's our map. I've attached the save game. I will say right now this is a favorable map that I hand-picked to facilitate the tutorial. Its a fractal map. No huts, no events. Yes the goal was to have favorable conditions since we are learning.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-4000BC.jpg

Nice, will start this when I'm done with the Mao game.

Amazing starting location for Darius, maybe too good. But hey, I'm not complaining.

Hahahaha. Irrigated corn, flood plains, and financial.

Settle on the hill or move off?

Hahahaha. Irrigated corn, flood plains, and financial.

I swear I didn't edit the map. :)
Again I didn't want the map working against us ... this is a tutorial series and the real lessons have less to do with the map and more to do with managing the empire through the middle ages.

Settle on the hill or move off?

1E. You get everything and the wine. Looks like you pickup an extra brown tile though(maybe 2 ... not sure what is SE) but you are trading a brown tile for it. I dunno. Might need the hill we're on for production. Just move the scout SE and see. I hate settling on green hills ... feels like such a waste.

Tech order?

I think AH, then mining. Then roads and pottery and writing?

Work in mysticism if you need border pops on city 2?

Would you use slavery to expand or create more troops?

I am not sure if I want to beeline pottery here or not. If not I'm probably going to go mining->BW->Wheel->pottery. I won't go AH unless I find some animals to work or a close neighbor. I hate going AH JUST for horses.

I have a feeling I'm probably asking something that has been answered many times in the past but...

When I tried to open the attached initial save, the game gave me a "Failed to uncompress data" error and crashed. Attempts to re-download the file produced the same results. Does anyone know how to fix this problem?

I have a feeling I'm probably asking something that has been answered many times in the past but...

When I tried to open the attached initial save, the game gave me a "Failed to uncompress data" error and crashed. Attempts to re-download the file produced the same results. Does anyone know how to fix this problem?
Oh really? hrm ... no one should be having this issue. Do you have the latest version of BTS?

Never mind, I've got everything squared away now. I just recently moved up to Emperor, and though I watched your previous game thread, I didn't play a game of my own. I've never participated in a game on these forums, and I'm looking forward to getting my feet wet. I'll try to play up to 1000 BC and post my effort sometime tomorrow. Hopefully I won't embarrass myself too badly:crazyeye:

moving east looks nice but loses two potential copper/horses tiles (I'm definitely expecting to see one of those pop up in one of those two tiles).

However, it also gains him an extra hill, a bunch more river tiles and the wine.


My suggestion is settle 1 east and settle your next city 1E of the sheep where it can shear the sheep and share the corn, and pick up whatever special resource pops (because I'm an optimist).
Your capital will probably not be working the corn all the time and it's too good a tile to not have overlap on.
It also lets your other city work two of the capitals hills mines when they're not in use (ie when re-growing the cap).
Popping resources from a worked mine is NOT to be under-estimated and is a strategy that pays off over the long term.

To 1000 BC:




mining - bw - masonry - wheel - mysticism - ah - pottery - fishing - writing


4000 - Scout reveals silk to the east, so I settle 1E, claiming TWO riverside silk tiles.

3175 - At this point I have explored a big chunk of land and still no rival AIs around. So I take a detour to masonry and the GW.

3150 - I find a wounded lion, so we are not isolated. But there is a lot of unsettled land anyway and I still head to the Great Wall.

3050 - First AI is Mansa.

2900 - Scout dead.

2625 - Pasargadae founded. Forgot the screen, it's on the NE coast to claim copper/fish/pigs/marble.

2175 - GWall done:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0000-74.jpg

1925 - Oh joy, the next AI is Shaka.

1775 - Susa:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0001-71.jpg

1125 - Last AI of this segment is Stalin.

Empire:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0002-71.jpg


About our goals.
- Rush target. No way. I still don't know where they are, but the first contact was super late. So they are miles away.

- Horse/copper. Both, and the Great Wall.

- Cottages. Delayed pottery to build the Great Wall. Not sure if it was really necessary, but I don't like to screw around with barbs on a map like this. Persepolis is working 2 cottages at this point.

- Unlock HE. Almost there. This immortal will get the laxt XP capturing a barb city:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0003-69.jpg

- 4 cities. Again, slow expansion to build the GW. 3 cities founded and that barb city will be captured very soon.

I don't know if the Great Wall was worth the delay, but better safe than sorry.
Monarchy is obviously a top priority with a capital like this.

First time at emperor....advice welcome!

To 1150BC:

Settled 1E.
Build: worker>war>settler>war>worker>immortal
Tech: mining>AH>Wheel>BW>Pot>Writing>Alpha

Teched AH as I saw several Ah resources that would likely be in a second city, plus I wanted to look for horsies. My second city (horses) is mediocre - woulda been better 1S but I wanted horses in first ring. Also might have been better to just go BW earlier and found one of those cities to the east. My third city probably should have been to the south for blocking purposes.

Dot map:
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/dualmaster333/Civ4ScreenShot0040.jpg
Comments on city locations/settle order very welcome.
Currently have a settler headed south to settle cyan(#1). This will help block land and can work cows immediately for growth. Yellow(#2) blocks and will be a sick commerce site eventually (all those gems!:drool:). Cities 3-5 will be powerful and closer to capital for less maint.

Techs: Just finished alpha...
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/dualmaster333/Civ4ScreenShot0041.jpg
Currently qued Currency to help with REx costs and open up CoL. Will need to trade for IW so yellow city can be productive (and connect gems).

Progress toward 1000BC goals (though it is only 1150BC for me):
- Had immortals well before barbs started invading
- Have two hamlets running in capital
- One immortal up to 8/10 xp, now hunting for barbs
- I'm a little behind on settling

Sure is a nice map for the move up to emp!

First time at emperor....advice welcome!


with respect to the dotmap, an alternative configuration to consider:

a city on the desert hill two north of the SE copper. Irrigate the floodplains and grassland to work 4 mines+grassland copper. This will be a great production city.

Move city #5 1 SW
Keep barb city instead of razing itr
Settle a city in the void opened up between Yusa, the barb city and your capital (NW of the cows looks perfect).
Settle a city 1E of the sheep in the north to make sure that the corn and mines hills in the BFC of your capital are always being worked.

That's 3 cities extra (and all very productive) you can fit into your empire without huge amounts of overlap =)

Those two unclaimed bananas, fish and rice to the south all look very tasty too but you've probably got enough to do just developing the land you've already drawn out =)

Glad to play your games feral, will be playin this map, thanks.

Here I am through 1000BC


Well first of all I'd like to say my CE is a lot shakier than my SE but with this leader and this land there should be little to worry about. My only real gripe is hunting. I could go on and on about how much hunting sucks. Not only does the tech very rarely come in useful (and you really don't want to live on the land where it IS useful), but scouts are horrible. That said somehow by 1000BC I managed to keep mine alive but I consider that a miracle. Anyhow lets see how things went.

I decided since the land was so good to go for the Pottery gambit. Honestly I am not sold on this being a solid strategy and doubt it works on Immortal but I've done it a couple of times now on Emperor so I decided to give it a shot. The idea is shoot wheel->pottery first before going mining->BW. This means we won't be able to find copper until the mid 2000s and can slow an initial expansion if we have super close AI's. Still as long as we are aware of these facts and account for them ... with good land ... its a hell of an opening for a CE. We just will have to dance with some barbs for a couple hundred years is all.

I settled 1 east and was honestly disappointed when I found the silk. I consider silk to be about the worst calendar resource ... at least for a CE. Still I guess 6 :commerce: improved will be nice whenever the hell it gets around to it but I don't see my capital working those tiles for a large chunk of the game. I improved the FPs first, then mined a hill, then turned to chopping. For 4000->2500BC my tech path was Wheel->Pottery->Mining->Bronze->Mysticism. I built Worker->Warrior->Settler->Warrior (a few turns to let city grow)->Settler.

I meet Willem very early so I know he's close and SW.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-3675BC-Willem.jpg

and meet Mansa right at the time limit
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-2525BC-Mansa.jpg

By 2500BC I was 1 turn from dropping my production city down to get some copper. I stubbornly settle for the optimum location but in retrospect probably should have settled 1 tile West of the copper ... this would have been much safer. As it was in the 2500-1000BC segment I really had some close calls with some barbs because I settled that copper outside of the BFC. This was a major mistake. Regardless here I am at 2500BC.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-2500BC-Resources.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-2500BC-Overview.jpg

From here I kind of took off pretty well. My goal was to cut off my peninsula which I got some help from some Barbs on. That said by 1000BC I really wasn't feeling any AI heat on my peninsula blocking cities so it was obvious we were very isolated up here. Lots of really nice land to expand all over. By 2025 I had down my first blocking city, settling on the hill between the gems, bananas, and rice. The barbs had already set up shop next door. I would not get a 4th city down by 1000BC, not even meeting my own goal. Neither would I get a 10XP unit. That said I would get way ahead of the AI's on tech. After finish up Mysticism I would go Fishing->AH->Writing->Alphabet->Aesthetics. Alphabet would land in 1175BC and then I would trade around for Sailing, Poly, and Masonry. I would come close to getting IW as well but no one wants to trade it ... and I still have a monopoly on Alphabet. I also would have a fairly large fogbust setup so no more barb worries.

Here's who I met along the way
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-2000BC-Stalin.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1175BC-Shaka.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1000BC-Monty.jpg

Not entirely excited about the last two but they are already falling behind Willem, Mansa, and myself. Willem is my only neighbor and he's relatively easy to keep happy. Plus I only really have to defend two cities. Should be a cinch.

Here's where I'm at 1000BC.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1000BC-UpperOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1000BC-LowerOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1000BC-Tech.jpg

I'm pretty much out in front techwise. I know this will fizzle out as soon as everyone gets their hands on alphabet but until then I have a lock on GLib at this point ... doubt I'll go for much of anything else wonderwise. I really need to get working on a GS soon too ... ideally I could have a GS for an academy soon, then one for Philosophy, then one for education. This is tough for a CE to pull off efficiently but we'll see. I already have the library down so it may happen but I need to push for it.


And here's the play by play through 1000BC

4000BC - Settle 1E, Research wheel. Start Worker
3675BC - Finish wheel, start Pottery. Meet Willem from southwest.
3425BC - Finish Worker, start warrior.
3400BC - Worker starts on Corn.
3325BC - Finish Pottery, start mining.
3200BC - Farm done, head to FP for Cottage.
3125BC - Starting to look like SW is only way out of here.
3050BC - Finish Mining, start on Bronze Working.
3000BC - Warrior finishes, start on settler. Not sure where to settle yet, maybe due south.
2975BC - One FP cottaged, going to 2nd one.
2925BC - Scout miracles his way to woods II ... he's almost not useless now.
2800BC - Scout confirms we are on our own peninsula.
2775BC - Finish cottage, head to green hills.
2675BC - Finish BW, start on Mysticism. Copper SE, first city settling on copper/fish/wheat.
2600BC - Finish mine, turning to the chop for settler X2 and a worker.
2550BC - Settler finishes, turn to warrior for 4 turns to let city grow to size 4.
2525BC - Mansa Musa makes an appearance. Also I can see Willem's tech so he must be splitting his EPs across a lot of people.
2475BC - Find Pasagarde on Copper/Fish/Wheat. Should be all set for copper online. Finish Mysticism, start on Fishing.
2450BC - Chop pushes out warrior and Persepolis grows to size 4, start on settler.
2350BC - Finish Fishing, start on AH.
2275BC - Barb city was founded near gems x3 city. Will send settler to gems/banana/rice city.
2200BC - Settler born, start worker.
2150BC - Worker complete's third chop, heading to Pasagarde to help with copper effort.
2125BC - Finish AH, start on Writing.
2075BC - Finish worker, start on warrior x2. Worker heads to chop to help.
2050BC - Whip out monument in Pasagarde, start on boat. Copper is going to come very late.
2025BC - Found Susa on Banana/Gems/Rice hill.
2000BC - Meet Stalin.
1975BC - Chop out 2nd warrior (garrison), start on worker.
1925BC - Finish chopping in Persepolis, build another cottage.
1825BC - Finish Writing, start on Alphabet.
1800BC - Chop out boat and half of barracks in Pasagarde.
1775BC - Worker is born, send to copper. Start on library.
1575BC - Copper hooked up, whip out barracks ... should finish an axe too. Chopping last forest to help the axe effort.
1500BC - Whip out an axe, chop should produce another.
1375BC - Whip out Library, start on settler.
1175BC - Get Alphabet, start Aesthetics. Meet Shaka ... lovely. Warrior born in susa, start granary. Capped at size 2 for unhealthiness. Trade writing for sailing to Mansa. Gift some minor techs to Shaka and Stalin for relations. They have IW I need.
1025BC - Settler born, headed down to settle rice/gems. Growing Persepolis 1 size then starting on worker.
1000BC - Still no one will give up IW. Meet Monty, trade him writing for poly. Trade Willem writing for masonry.

To 1000BC


204089

204090


Went a little different direction than the other two people who posted their saves.

I wanted to block off the AI ASAP and after founding my copper city, I made it my priority to get the two southern cities.

I currently only have two axeman, but just got a barracks built in my copper city. Planning on mining that city up for more axeman until my more efficient production cities are up and running.

Have three cottages at capital, one of which will be a village in 4 turns.

Researched Mining - BW - Myst - Wheel - Writing.
After writing I was unsure of the best next move. It was a toss up between IW, alpha, and even aesthetics. The only reason I thought about aethetics is because we used that for trade bait last game and because of all the marble around, which would make for a fast wonder. However, I was unsure as to which wonder would be needed and I'm hoping I can trade alpha/writing around for AH/Fishing/IW.

Have 4 workers. Monument built in South city. After granary built in South West city will whip a monument.

I hope to pop a level 4 unit from attacks on the two barb cities.

As far as the order and how many new cities there will be, I havent given much though.

204091

After pulling that all nighter to write those 3000 words a few days ago, I still wasn't feeling right yesterday so my shadows were slow and sluggish. I'll probably do a bit better tonight (time permitting) or tomorrow! This one looks pretty appealing.

I'm not happy with my city placement.


The more I think about it today the more its eating me up where I put my copper city. I hope people realize that the "right" place was 1W of the copper. I *barely* survived to get my axes out because I had to pop my border and get the mine up in time and I had archers and warriors flooding me. All of that would have been cleanly mitigated with a proper city placement.

I survived but it was too close and not appropriate for a tutorial game. I'm contemplating restarting although I'm not sure I have that in me.

Oh wow, what a start and with Darius too. My only concern is being production poor, so I would want to move 1 E to utilize the hill the settler is on (which appears to be the consensus).

An Aside for Feralminded: Why do you hate hunting as a starting tech? I ask because you're a MUCH better player than I and hunting is one of my favorites. It's a fav because I start with a scout instead of a warrior, and I can research Archery right away to build archers for defense. I don't waste any hammers on building relatively weak warriors. Without huts then the advantage of the scout vs. warrior may be a bit blunted but I'm not a fan of warriors. Granted if we had something to camp in the BFC then hunting is a lot more useful.

I have ZERO time to play civ at all right now, but I'll keep up if I can. This one looks very, very good.

Thanks again for hosting these. I learn a ton. :goodjob:

Heck, I've only played Darius once before. Think I'll give this ago when I get home tonight. I, too, will be settling 1E to pick up those extra river tiles and the guaranteed Grassland Hill. I don't like hoping I pop metal in the BFC only to be disappointed, and I definitely want more than two hills in my capital.

This is going to be one helluva good Cottage capital!

@dualmaster



First time at emperor....advice welcome!

To 1150BC:

Settled 1E.
Build: worker>war>settler>war>worker>immortal
Tech: mining>AH>Wheel>BW>Pot>Writing>Alpha


Yeah right there you need to pick a path and go for it. Unless you have a very compelling reason never go mining without following it up with BW. Chopping/slavery are so powerful just getting mining feels like a tease. Same with wheel and pottery. Since we're playing a CE and are FIN pottery is going to be huge for us. Those river tiles are 3 :commerce: / turn from the second you finish that cottage. That's a huge jump in research early on. Not that your tech path hurt you much but early optimization is both the easiest optimization to implement (fewer "what ifs") and has the longest ROI.


Teched AH as I saw several Ah resources that would likely be in a second city, plus I wanted to look for horsies. My second city (horses) is mediocre - woulda been better 1S but I wanted horses in first ring. Also might have been better to just go BW earlier and found one of those cities to the east. My third city probably should have been to the south for blocking purposes.

For a CE, even with a chariot UU I normally won't go AH early (before BW) unless I find a very close AI or if I have pigs/cows/sheep in my capital. Its a very expensive tech to get and pottery unlocks writing. Under SE's I often find myself delaying Pottery so I use AH to pick up writing. Ultimately the sooner we can get to writing the sooner we can get to Alphabet/Aesthetics and trade for everything we don't have. Still this isn't a bad way to go, just saying its possible to put off AH if you don't have an immediate use for it. As for your cities yeah that horse city is rough up there but its ok, got you what you needed. The third city is solid but yeah, you want to look to block. Also I think you needed to snag fishing before racing for alphabet. Sure you can backfill but thats a lot of turns for those two cities to sit there semi-starving.


Currently have a settler headed south to settle cyan(#1). This will help block land and can work cows immediately for growth. Yellow(#2) blocks and will be a sick commerce site eventually (all those gems!:drool:). Cities 3-5 will be powerful and closer to capital for less maint.


I personally would slide #1, 1W ... being on the ocean will do you no good for this city ... get close to that river and get more green tiles. I would move #2 south 2 and 1 W and pickup both bananas ... this allows you to build a superior city NE that can have horses, rice and marble (and cows if you want). Actually I ended up pushing #1 further south to get the rice in the BFC and make space, but your #1 isn't bad either for a tighter empire. Basically I made space there for a city between them all and that middle city with cows/horses/marble/rice is a monster production city for the early-mid game. The upkeep costs I did not find horrendous either on pushing down the peninsula some more.

Also do not neglect the site between the Capital and your #5. If you settle 2W of the copper you can work the silk when your capital isn't as well as help develop some the captial's cottages. Its almost always worth your while to pack in your capital in a CE to help grow cottages in the early-mid game. Those little cities become very helpful sources of :espionage: late game and are great for drafting as well. Not every city needs 20 tiles.

Oh wow, what a start and with Darius too. My only concern is being production poor, so I would want to move 1 E to utilize the hill the settler is on (which appears to be the consensus).

An Aside for Feralminded: Why do you hate hunting as a starting tech? I ask because you're a MUCH better player than I and hunting is one of my favorites. It's a fav because I start with a scout instead of a warrior, and I can research Archery right away to build archers for defense. I don't waste any hammers on building relatively weak warriors. Without huts then the advantage of the scout vs. warrior may be a bit blunted but I'm not a fan of warriors. Granted if we had something to camp in the BFC then hunting is a lot more useful.

I have ZERO time to play civ at all right now, but I'll keep up if I can. This one looks very, very good.

Thanks again for hosting these. I learn a ton. :goodjob:

Well I hate hunting for a lot of reasons, but I'll try to keep it down to a few.

#1. I hate scouts. On emperor if you can keep a scout alive until 2000BC you've found a miracle. I actually pulled that off and miracled my way to Woods II and still have a scout. That said this is indeed a miracle. A warrior can almost always survive to woods II and at that point he is basically immortal until either a very lucky archer or an axe comes along. This is key because scouting your territory is hugely important on determining where to expand AND your first unit is likely your best (and sometimes only) candidate to get 10xp to unlock the HE ... which is hugely important. Even a woods II scout cannot keep getting promotions once animals go away while a woods II warrior can eat archers and even spears when used right.

#2. I hate archers. At least on emperor whenever I HAVE to build archers I feel like I've lost in some way. Whenever humanly possible I get my hands on axes or chariots. But even if not I love warriors (so cheap and can stop anything pre-axes) and a solid fogbust works as well. I've won many emperor games without ever teching hunting or archery and as such I consider it a dead end tech until maybe I am looking for HAs ... and at that point its mega cheap. Its the whole the best defense is a good offense thing. When the AI is attacking me if I have a choice of a pile of archers or a couple catapults, a couple HAs, and some metal ... well the second option sends the AI home packing while the first just delays the inevitable. That said for my immortal jaunts I have started to use archery a bit more because the barbs just come so fast and furious there's sometimes little choice.

#3. The hunting resources are almost all crap. Elephants are the exception but they're rare. Deer suck because they're almost always on an inferior tile (would love them if they would ever land on a wooded plains hill). Fur REALLY sucks because its basically silk (which kind of sucks) ... except on horrible tiles. I would trade fur's 3 :commerce: in a second for 2:commerce:, 1 :food: any day. Anything to make suck tiles less suck. Unless you are playing an Ice Age map or something these resources just don't cut it.

#4. Agriculture is all but necessary, so hunting unlocking AH is basically useless. I mean that says it all. If agriculture didn't unlock AH I might find myself teching hunting more but since 80% of maps require agriculture immediately I end up unlocking AH that way.

1. I don't use them much either, but they're cheap builds. Once everyone is settled, I recommend building one and pressing "e". This is an inexpensive way to map every AI on your continent pre-paper, and may be quite useful to war plans.

2. Archers may be a necessity. They're not bad at all on any difficulty really, unless you have better alternatives (which isn't always). I like them alot vs early rusher type AIs, especially with hill cities where their bonus stacking gets ridiculous. Situational.

3. The alternative is not working the hunting resources, just to build warriors. Thing is, fur and ivory are important just for the :), while deer is food that gives you +2 over the citizen working it ---> a post bio farm with some hammers basically. And health. The hunting resource are generally better for their bonuses and trade value than to work though...but you definitely want to work deer.

4. It's nice to open AH instantly if you have livestock but not grain, otherwise not too useful here. Still, that's a decent % of my starts where I get pigs or cow/seafood and no grains.

Overall, it's not worth avoiding if you get a :) resource or start with deer. I'd much prefer most other starting techs though, especially since hunting is cheap anyway so I can get it easily should i want/need it.

Well the conclusion that I can draw is that I don't really know how to use warriors. I'll have to work on that. My warriors seem to get eaten by bears even if on a forested hill. :lol: Luck of the draw sometimes.

Yeah until you get woods I you basically run away from bears. Even with woods I you better be on a hill forest/jungle. Once you get Woods II you have better mobility and you should win nearly every time against a bear if you are on a forested hill. That said a warrior will nearly never lose to anything else if its in a flat forest whereas a scout needs Woods II to make the same claim.

As for handling your warriors you basically follow the rules of scouting. You prioritize forest hills->forests->hills->rivers->coast. Run from bears, be mindful of Jaguars, and stay at full health. Try to stay elevated though as this improves your sightlines and can keep you from moving adjacent to a bear.

As for barb archers/warriors ... well you should never lose a woods II because you can control the terrain you fight on thanks to your mobility and won't lose on your chosen terrain. Woods I still should win most of the time to an archer when he's on a hill. However by this point you should be looking to setup a fogbust such that the warrior won't need to fight much anyhow. If you peek at my 1000BC save for this game you can see I have something of a bust already setup. The warriors don't have to fight because the barbs simply can't spawn. I don't have it locked down by any means but its definitely under control. This is where the strength of the warrior is ... the :hammers: cost. You spread those warriors out and bust the fog and then bring them home once you tech HR and use them for happy cap. They end up far more :hammers: efficient than archers at that point and effectively kept barbs out of your hair.

I had set up a Darius game 3 weeks ago I had intended to be my first foray into emperor - but this one looks like an even better start than I had rolled, so I'll shadow this one along over the next few days.

Alright, played up to 1000 BC, here's my game.

In the interest of full disclosure, I had to do a reload once. I'm still not used to the faster attack speed of the barbs on Emperor; I ended up being too sluggish about getting my copper hooked up, and my third city was eaten alive by barb archers while I still had only Warriors. I reloaded from 2800 BC and played it from there. I tried to play as close to my first attempt as possible, with only slight adjustments to keep from having my city eaten alive. I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with where I am at the moment, city placement included, but I'm surviving for now. I'm teching far slower than you as well, not having managed to research Alphabet. Oh well. Any criticisms are welcome.

My plans for the immediate future are to send an Immortal south to scout around, and get my first Scientists up and running. I also need to get my peninsula blocked off, and I think I need to get Monarchy very soon to grow my cities. Suggestions?

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt254/Alrin_photo/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt254/Alrin_photo/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt254/Alrin_photo/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt254/Alrin_photo/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt254/Alrin_photo/Civ4ScreenShot0004-1.jpg

Well, I made it to 1000BC with only a couple of reloads (I'm really not used to barbs being so tough or turning up so soon!)


I teched Mining->BW->Pottery->AH->Writing->Alphabet [trade myst & masonry] ->fishing->IW
And built worker->warrior->warrior->setterx2 (I think - there may have been some bits of barracks in there somewhere)

I settled the SE iron first, going 1W as suggested, and followed that up with the site to the NE with copper/fish/marble/pigs. I figure this one will be good for a GP farm or a drafting/Globe theater city. I sent my fourth settler down to block off the peninsula as in Feral's game - a tactic I'm not really used to yet!

Overall, I'm enjoying this one more than the Ramesses game, but I have no idea why. I managed to do a lot more without reading any significant spoilers, which is good, but I was still surprised when the barbs turned up.

I think my next moves should be to build a stack of axes to take the barb cities within my desired borders, and then to connect up some gems for the :) and some horses for the :ar15:

Diplomatically I'm a bit lost :confused:. I'd normally trade techs with Mansa, but he is worst enemy with the other three civs he's met (not Stalin, who I think is on another land mass). 1000BC opens with Shaka asking for pottery and Mansa asking me to stop dealing with Monty (its not in the attached save, but in the auto save - I had to click through them to save it properly). As I share a land border with the Dutch, I figure I either need to befriend Willem, or annihilate him.

My lands:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204192&stc=1&d=1234911780

and my techs:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204194&stc=1&d=1234911780

First time ever playing above Noble, however the map looked conducive so what the hell. I'm jumping into the deep end. Harsh criticism desired. I also apologize for the wordiness but I want to be called out for being an idiot so I supply quite a bit of my thought process.

Up to 1000BC


Overall tech path for this period is Wheel> Pottery> Mining> BW> AH> Myst> Writing> Alpha >Aes > Lit > 1/2 Currency

Started by moving scout to see if there were more plains or just junk with the wine and saw more rivers and some silk. Start a worker. Get a 2nd worker.

2450BC - Finish exploring the area and chop out a settler. Explore around and sure enough this is a peninsula.

[img=http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5969/mypengp7.th.jpg] (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mypengp7.jpg)

Decide that my 2nd city will be 1N of the copper to the east in order to utilize the hills and floodplains to make something of a production city. Until levees this area looks rather deficient in production capabilities. Also at this point the higher difficulty barbs are truly scaring the beejesus out of me and I am wishing I had gone for the Great Wall or at least archery. Just hoping settling closer for quick copper link up and a few axemen will be sufficient. Would like to at least get to year 0.

[img=http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5972/2ndcityhk1.th.jpg] (http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2ndcityhk1.jpg)

Well my one scout and lone warrior hold off until I can whip out two axes to stop the archers waiting in line to pillage my maturing cottages. Also by 2400BC I have met Shaka, Willem, Musa, and Montezuma. Only Willem appears to be anywhere in my vicinity. Run out of things I want to produce in the copper city so I build SH for the sole purpose of losing the race and getting gold, which I do... badly.

1800BC I found Susa to my SW on the jungle's border on the hill that has access to horses, rice, gems, cows. Forgot to take a picture.

I get alphabet complete and much to my shock...

[img=http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4672/afteralphabetff7.th.jpg] (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afteralphabetff7.jpg)

The computer players are actually teching at a pretty pathetic pace. I was expecting to be left in the dust, especially with no GP out yet. I then look closer and realize why. Willem founded Buddhism. Shaka founded Judaism. Montezuma founded Hinduism. Musa is Jewish and Stalin is Buddhist. It's already one large holy war down there. I really need to pay more attention to wars even when I'm not involved.

In 1600BC Willem sends a missionary to my capitol and I very eagerly trade organized religion (Monotheism) from him and swap into that with a Buddhist twist. We are now best buddies and every chance I get I beg gold of him to pay for my researching.

1100BC I found Ecbatana (okay this name is hilarious) to the SE of Susa in order to block off my area once the borders pop. Not entirely however as there is a small space still up my west coast. Guess that will have to wait until later. I also put two scientists to work in the capitol as not having a GP even on the way yet is freaking me out.

The southern half of my kingdom in 1000BC

[img=http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6915/southerncities1000bcpc7.th.jpg] (http://img6.imageshack.us/my.php?image=southerncities1000bcpc7.jpg)

So lets see here... about those goals...

-Rush is not happening.
-Cottages worked early.
-HE is not even close.
-Block is forming in the south but definitely far from done as there is a corridor up the western coast still.

As a side note I'm also horribly deficient in workers. I have 3 :crazyeye:



Okay as my civilization was still alive and kicking I kept going. I would especially like some guidance from where to go from where I stopped in 940AD.


Going to keep this part more to the point. Managed to get 3 GS out of the capitol as well as build the Great Library there, mostly thanks to popping gold out of a mine in the copper city and subsequently building the Shwedegon Paya there and running Pacifism. The first one was an academy. The 2nd researched philosophy. The third I settled. I will have another in 10-20 turns. University of Sankore will also be up in that window.

The world remains mostly unchanged. Holy war in the south of my continent. In 900AD I met Victoria and Pericles. No clue from what direction as I never saw any units. Pericles is Hindu and Victoria founded Confucianism. She also built the AP and was just elected the leader. Thankfully Stalin and Shaka still do not have this religion... yet. Christianity and Islam went to Willem and I founded Taoism with the GS in 115AD.

The year is now 940AD and I just finished Liberalism and picked up Nationalism as the free tech. The following is my empire, the diplomacy situation, and the tech situation. Lots of backtrading I did not list, however as you can see I still do not have metal casting and therefore forges. I'm really starting to hate myself for this.

North half of empire
[img=http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3751/northcivot3.th.jpg] (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=northcivot3.jpg)

South half of empire
[img=http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7116/southcivwt9.th.jpg] (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=southcivwt9.jpg)

Diplomacy screen
[img=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4605/theworldhatesmemg2.th.jpg] (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theworldhatesmemg2.jpg)

Tech Trading screen
[img=http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/734/papaernationmonopolyca8.th.jpg] (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=papaernationmonopolyca8.jpg)

So I am kind of at a loss as to how I should proceed other than getting up 3-4 more cities to flesh out my area. I could easily tech a few lines deeper and rush Willem with Calvary, or Cannons, or really whatever I like. He can get Muskets soon and has a large army but nothing that really scares me. However, this would result in me killing off my only powerful ally on the continent and the other leaders outside of Stalin and Shaka are a straw away from dropping my Buddhist self from this game if I give them the opportunity. Killing off the guy protecting my borders and supplying me with already thousands of gold up to this point seems like just that opportunity.

How viable is a space victory for a new emperor player? Could I fill out my land, hunker back behind my Willem wall and shoot up a spaceship before the AI? I really expected at this point to either have lost out on Liberalism or just be a bloody pulp. So is drafting up an army with the intent of rubbing out my most powerful ally even worth the 3 holy cities and massive tracks of land I'd gain? If I were to go for domination he would surely have to fall.

Oh in terms of power there is Willem and then there is the rest... followed by me. He has by far the largest standing army and no one has dared declare war on him for a good century now.

Well I gave it a go up to 1000BC like the rest.

Lessons reaffirmed this game:


It's a dangerous world: My scout was eaten by a lion before making it even halfway around the first loop of my capital.
Barbs are dangerous: 7 straight losses, but I won when it counted (3 Archers vs. an Axeman defending my capital)
Scouting is key to good city placement (as opposed to what I did)

This game went poorly from the very start as you can see above. I saw the second Copper immediately after founding my second city, so my first city had to expand in the wrong direction. :( The barbs settled what I had picked as my third city location, forcing me to settle a subpar third city. I'm building a couple more axes so I can take it post-haste.

I chose to forgo the Great Wall this time as I've been relying on it too heavily. The first barb Warrior entered my territory in 2950 BC! I was hoping to have until 2500BC. Luckily he decided to dance in and out a few times, letting me move a Warrior to my second city, saving it from destruction by 1 turn! :eek:

There's surprisingly little food inland given how many resource markers there are. The Cows will help, but I resorted to clumping my dots around the main river for the floodlands. I'm afraid I don't like my dotmap at all. I think I still tend to maximize resources per city too much, reducing the number of cities I can pack into an area. Given that there's no hope to get the GLH, the coast will be pretty bare, save the places with seafood.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd275/EmperorFool/Games/feralminded%2001/DotMap.png
Logging by BUG Mod 3.5 (BtS 3.13-3.17)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 0/750 (4000 BC) [17-Feb-2009 15:59:53]
Persepolis founded
Persepolis begins: Warrior (22 turns)
Research begun: Mining (11 Turns)

Turn 7/750 (3825 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:01:23]

After End Turn:
Persepolis's borders expand

Turn 10/750 (3750 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:01:53]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mining
Persepolis grows to size 2

Turn 11/750 (3725 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:02:03]
Research begun: Bronze Working (20 Turns)
Persepolis begins: Worker (18 turns)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Persepolis, Scout loses to Barbarian Lion (0.24/2) (Prob Victory: 76.9%)

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Other Player Actions:
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 28/750 (3300 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:03:52]

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Worker

Turn 30/750 (3250 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:04:38]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Bronze Working

Turn 31/750 (3225 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:04:42]
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (15 Turns)

Turn 32/750 (3200 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:06:15]
Research begun: Fishing (8 Turns)

Other Player Actions:
Contact made: Zulu Empire

Turn 35/750 (3125 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:06:55]
A Mine was built near Persepolis

Turn 37/750 (3075 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:07:07]

After End Turn:
Persepolis grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Contact made: Aztec Empire

Turn 39/750 (3025 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:07:17]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Fishing

Turn 40/750 (3000 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:07:40]
Research begun: Mysticism (9 Turns)

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Turn 41/750 (2975 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:07:54]
Persepolis begins: Settler (22 turns)

Turn 43/750 (2925 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:08:13]
A Farm was built near Persepolis

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Persepolis, Warrior (1.66/2) defeats Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 78.7%)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Persepolis, Warrior (0.06/2) defeats Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 77.7%)

Turn 47/750 (2825 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:13:46]
Warrior promoted: Woodsman I

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Corrosion (Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Shaka(Zululand) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 48/750 (2800 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:14:05]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mysticism

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Corrosion (Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 49/750 (2775 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:14:27]
Research begun: The Wheel (11 Turns)

Turn 50/750 (2750 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:15:24]
A Mine was built near Persepolis

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Corrosion (Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 55/750 (2625 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:17:48]

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Settler

Turn 56/750 (2600 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:17:57]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (4 turns)

Turn 58/750 (2550 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:19:19]
Pasargadae founded
Pasargadae begins: Monument (45 turns)

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Turn 59/750 (2525 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:19:55]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (4 turns)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior loses to Barbarian Warrior (0.24/2) (Prob Victory: 74.9%)

Turn 61/750 (2475 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:20:38]

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Turn 62/750 (2450 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:20:44]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (4 turns)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior loses to Barbarian Archer (1.80/3) (Prob Victory: 43.2%)

Turn 63/750 (2425 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:20:58]

After End Turn:
Persepolis grows to size 4

Turn 64/750 (2400 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:21:02]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Turn 65/750 (2375 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:21:30]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (4 turns)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (9 Turns)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (9 Turns)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Persepolis, Warrior loses to Barbarian Archer (1.74/3) (Prob Victory: 65.7%)

Turn 66/750 (2350 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:22:14]

After End Turn:
Pasargadae finishes: Monument

Turn 67/750 (2325 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:22:26]
Pasargadae begins: Work Boat (45 turns)

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Other Player Actions:
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 68/750 (2300 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:22:36]
Persepolis begins: Barracks (11 turns)

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (1.68/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 90.1%)

Turn 70/750 (2250 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:22:55]
A Mine was built near Pasargadae

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Persepolis, Warrior (1.58/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 40.7%)
Attitude Change: Shaka (Zululand) towards Montezuma (Aztec), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Shaka (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 71/750 (2225 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:23:07]
Warrior promoted: Woodsman I

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Montezuma(Aztec) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 74/750 (2150 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:23:41]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry
Persepolis's borders expand

Turn 75/750 (2125 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:23:49]
Research begun: Pottery (9 Turns)

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Barracks

Turn 76/750 (2100 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:24:16]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Persepolis begins: Worker (8 turns)

After End Turn:
Persepolis grows to size 5
Pasargadae finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (1.60/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 53.9%)

Turn 77/750 (2075 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:24:45]
A Fishing Boats was built near Pasargadae
Pasargadae begins: Work Boat (45 turns)

After End Turn:
Pasargadae grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (0.56/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.7%)

Turn 78/750 (2050 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:26:08]
Warrior promoted: Woodsman I

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shaka (Zululand) towards Montezuma (Aztec), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Shaka (Zululand), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shaka (Zululand) towards Montezuma (Aztec), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Shaka (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 81/750 (1975 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:26:35]

After End Turn:
Pasargadae's borders expand

Turn 82/750 (1950 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:31:16]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shaka (Zululand) towards Montezuma (Aztec), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Shaka (Zululand), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 83/750 (1925 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:31:26]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (4 turns)
Warrior promoted: Combat I
Research begun: Masonry (7 Turns)

Turn 84/750 (1900 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:32:23]

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Warrior
Pasargadae finishes: Work Boat

Turn 85/750 (1875 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:32:34]
Pasargadae begins: Granary (90 turns)

Turn 86/750 (1850 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:33:17]

After End Turn:
Pasargadae grows to size 3

Turn 87/750 (1825 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:33:35]

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Persian territory at Pasargadae, Warrior (1.70/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 95.6%)

Turn 88/750 (1800 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:33:56]
Persepolis begins: Granary (9 turns)
A Mine was built near Pasargadae

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior loses to Barbarian Archer (0.60/3) (Prob Victory: 79.9%)

Turn 89/750 (1775 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:34:58]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Masonry

Turn 90/750 (1750 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:35:24]
Research begun: Writing (11 Turns)

Turn 95/750 (1625 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:37:30]
A Cottage was built near Persepolis

After End Turn:
Persepolis finishes: Granary

Turn 96/750 (1600 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:37:38]
Persepolis begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Persepolis begins: Settler (12 turns)

After End Turn:
Pasargadae finishes: Granary

Turn 97/750 (1575 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:40:37]
Pasargadae begins: Barracks (9 turns)

Turn 98/750 (1550 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:41:20]
Warrior promoted: Combat I
Persepolis begins: Axeman (8 turns)

After End Turn:
Pasargadae grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Shaka (Zululand) towards Montezuma (Aztec), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Montezuma (Aztec) towards Shaka (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Corrosion(Persia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 100/750 (1500 BC) [17-Feb-2009 16:43:19]

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Persepolis
Persepolis finishes: Axeman

Damn, I forgot to turn logging back on when I returned to the game. :(

Through 1000 AD:

Settled 1E, teched AH, Mining, BW, Wheel, Myst, Pottery, Masonry, Writing, and now Fishing, since my next few cities have seafood. Built a Worker, 3 Warriors, Settler, Barracks, Granary, Settler, Warrior, Worker, then Immortals. First 2 settlers went SW to cut off my "chunk" of land. Some VERY strong city spots on the fringe of that Jungle, making it a perfect place to "draw your line". The barbs were also kind enough to make me a city on one of my markers, but I dont have enough Immys yet, its on a hill and I will lose at least 2 trying to take it. Heres the pics of my empire:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpgMy plan from here is to just peacefully settle this HUGE chunk of land, build the GL, and maybe the MoM, take Steel from Lib, and run over the AIs with Cannons and Maces. Basic stuff, nothing fancy. As far as I can tell, the AIs are too far away to bother rushing, but Immortals are about the best Anti-Barb unit in the game, they can even handle a Spear if they are fortified on a hill with Combat I or II. I hope to have the Barbs build a pile of cities, which I will keep or raze as I can afford them.

To 1125 BC

Ok guys, this is my first shot at emperor, thought it was a good opportunity as i have been winning too easily on monarch as of late. I've played through to 1125 BC and think i've done ok, basically I've rexed hard to the south, cutting off the rest of the continent, leaving me room to settle around my capital later. I have the southern horses hooked up and a settler on his way to found the copper, banana, fish, 2 gems city. Right now I've got 2 plans, but not sure which way to go, I can research priesthood in 5, have marble hooked up in 6 or so turns and start the oracle in my capital straight away hoping to get COL for some cheap courthouses but i'm not sure if it's too late. Seeing as i dont yet have writing, and willem already has alpha, i'm thinking going aesthetics may also be a good plan. Overall I think i'm doing OK, maybe teching a bit slow but I'm gonna easily get 10 cities peacefully, i've got some cottages going and HE unlocked.

Also could someone tell me how to post pictures? I've never done it but would like to so help would be appreciated. Please feel free to criticise me as much as you want.

I survived but it was too close and not appropriate for a tutorial game. I'm contemplating restarting although I'm not sure I have that in me.

What better for a tutorial game than demonstrating how to recover from a mistake?

I did the same thing at the NW Copper site and whipped an Axe in my capital just in time to defend from 3 Archers in one battle. That was waaaaay too close, but now that I made it through that city will be very nice.

Got carried away and went all the way to 1000 AD. I was really aggressive with a city placement - did it pay off? Details in spoiler.



I was super aggressive with my third city placement, hoping it would block a TON of land. It did - will pay off later in this game I think.

First thoughts - wow – what a capital. Settle 1E to claim wine, and get silk too. Monarchy is going to be early priority anyway. Start on worker. Tech path: AH, no horses initially, so Mining next. Find the two horses, so go wheel to hook up horses. Will get to BW later. More flood plains – heavy cottages in at least 3 locations for sure. Everything looks great for 50 turns – tremendous scouting and super land to settle…and then turn 51:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

Well, that just made this interesting. Horses don’t mean squat against him. I meet him near a ridiculous gem site, so I have to beat him there for sure. Then turn 52:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

Here I was thinking I’d be a peaceful supertecher. Better block them off and make sure I can capably defend. Met Mansa as well. Second city here:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

Got my immortals hooked up quick. I then decided to try something after scouting – I settled my third city WAY down here:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

If I did this right (and I was not sure at the time I did), I just blocked a ridiculous amount of land with that city. I know it’ll need to be heavily defended, but I think this just blocked my entire peninsula. Costly in maintenance, but could be a ridiculous payoff if I’m right. By the way, I passed two barb cities already along the way in 1750 BC. One is a good location, the other is one away from where I’d settle, so it may get razed.
Pulled this sucker off to get my courthouses up.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Barb city taken which I should have realized earlier could be a great GP farm - was really lazy with that city this round - wasting an opportunity. I also settled another city by the copper to the east of Persepolis as well. Stole a worker from one of the barbs to help development.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

Built this wonder in my blocking city to help tech and to help beat back Willem’s culture borders.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

After this, rex, rex, rex. Barb city helped rexing…

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

I got two free settlers and four free workers from barbs, at the cost of 1 immortal and 2 swords (which is all I lost on the two cities). Other than beating up barb cities, I just produced a few libraries, a bunch of units, workers and settlers. My units aren’t super strong ones, but I have a lot of them for hereditary rule. Cut off 1 turn from lib, and now need to decide next steps. I haven’t really generated any great people of note yet – one prophet and one scientist. Pretty much have done all this with cottages and HR, paying no attention to diplomacy either. No wars yet for me, but everyone is either cautious or pleased with me, so I haven’t been cozying up to anyone yet. A lazy game really. I forgot about a GP farm, so I’ve finally started to set it up in 1000 AD - will likely focus on merchants as a result and upgrade my immortals. Empire:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

13 cities, 4 of which were settled in the last 10-15 turns, and I'm still in the black at 60% tech. I think I've got 3-4 more pretty good sites to settle as well. How is my bureaucracy capital you ask? Seems like it’s doing ok to me – thoughts?

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

That farm in the NE corner is needed for chain farming up to my production city NE of there. Tech situation – will improve once I get lib as I can backfill big time.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

Thinking about teching toward rifles to try to pull lib-rifling. Unfortunately, would have to manually tech guilds, gunpowder, print press and replaceable parts, since I can't trade education. Leaning a bit more toward nationalism-taj. Thoughts on the better approach? My thought is I'm too late with lib to be too aggressive, so nationalism can help me keep pressing my advantage . I can also trade edu around and backfill all techs plus take everyone's gold for possible upgrades or deficit research while beelining steel/rfiles.

AI has been in a bunch of wars - shaka and mansa musa have constantly been at war, so i could go after mansa first, especially since Willem has a vassal and might be a tougher fight.

First post on here. Im fairly comfortable at Prince, but really comfortable running a CE. I figure what the hell, start looks awesome skip Monarch and jump right into an Emperor game.

I had no intentions of posting this game so no screenshots and summary is totally from memory. But, after playing first round and reading the others I thought my start was rather odd.

All suggestions, thoughts and criticism welcome.

To 1000BC
I decide to move 1E for an extra hill to work and 2 river silk.
Build order: Worker>War x3>Worker>Settler>War>Settler>War>Worker>Oracle. I think thats right lol. I threw a few hammers into a granary at some point, and 3 chops in there.

I go with most of Budweiser's suggested tech opening. AH>Mining>Wheel>Pottery>BW>Myst>Masonry>Fishing>Poly>Priesthood>Writing>Sailing>Math>Metal Casting(Oracle)>part of Alphabet.

Very odd tech order for me. Go AH first and pray for horses in BFC to deal with Barbs. No luck. Mining>Wheel>Pottery lets the worker build corn>mine>cottage FP, in that order. BW delayed because none of these improvments needed forest chopped and no need for whipping yet. BW finished just as my settler was coming out and settle NE for copper, marble, fish, pig site.

Haven't seen this in any other game but I pop gold in one of the capital's mines. SWEET!!

I have scouted a bit and we are at the end of what appears to be a large penninsula with a great deal of room to expand, especially south. Have met no one yet around 2300 BC. Made it along the SE coast to where the continent turns E. Scout died. SW I can see even less, silk and horse are the only resourses. Warrior dies.

At this point I had the Oracle in mind since we APPEAR to be isolated, but have marble. Freakin' great, my first Emperor game and its ISOLATED:mad: Dunno if this was a good idea or not, but I figured I needed all the help I could get. Free MC sounded great. Also if Im isolated I can justify spending hammers on wonders rather than settlers.

Im extremely scared of barbs since its my first Emperor game. And what do I do? Build the GW? Tech Archery? Nope. Nothing! Im hoping my warriors can hold me over until axes. Unforunatly I needed a border pop for this. Got swomped by barbs about the time of my first axe. Suffered a couple of losses but no barb pillaging. Talk about cutting it close! Im rather proud of myself for avoiding archery on emperor given that its my first attempt.

Founded second city W to claim fish, cow, horse. Its close to 1000BC and I have two cities, three on the way. No rush targets. I got the Oracle in 1300BC and took MC. Didnt hit the 4 city mark, but didnt really try since isolated. Also did rather poor getting only a 4/10 xp unit. Most any unit that won fights eventually died saving my improvments and cities before I had copper hooked up. I did however get cottages started early in the capital and 2 are now villages plus the lucky gold I had pop. I have 2 sceintists running and expect a GS for an Academy in ~17 turns. Oddly enough I have not whipped yet lol.

Now the fun begins. I meet Willam just before 1000BC. OK! Great! Im not isolated. Where did his workboat come from!? Wha.Wha..What! A SCOUT! WTF!? A Scout? This sucks. Very poor exploration on my part. Im hoping he came from a distant continent connected by a small isthmus. But who the hell knows. I have done zero exploring since my initial scout and warrior died.

Now I am in a mad rush to figure out where Willam is and try to mash out some settlers for blocking.

Spoiler for me reading the other spoilers lol.
I find it just freakin' crazy I only met one other civ by 1000BC. Most everyone else met Willam, Shaka, Monty or Mansa and Stalin. Lol cant remember if its Monty or Mansa or both.

Spoiler for me reading the other spoilers lol.
I find it just freakin' crazy I only met one other civ by 1000BC.

Only Montezuma and Shaka sent scouts my way. I had to seek out all the others on my own. That is extremely rare, especially since the others were closer.

I've played a little further to 275BC, and I have done very poorly. I nabbed that barb city (high cost for a big distraction) and raised another to get a 10XP unit. However, Willem has now settled two cities near my side of the jungle.

This is unacceptable. I'm seriously considering a restart which I never do. I'd usually just start a new game if I had done this bad since half the fun for me is exploring. But I want to play along, and this is going to be one hell of an uphill battle. :(

I just found this thread. Glad to see you trying the CE side of things feralminded. I'll do my best to find some time to play this game out.

Personally I prefer not to rush in my games. I feel it's a bit cheesy and if I can only pass a difficulty by rushing then it would not satisfy me.

Darius should be an absolute monster here I think. For me, it's hard to say yet what my techpath will be - even the first tech.

Photobucket is under maintenance but I'll post an update tomorrow or something. I finished the game, although I ran into some snags while doing the usual attempt at super mass warmongering so my finish date is only in the 1700's :cry:. I thought I'd be doing good by ALREADY HAVING a decent stack of cavalry around 1300 AD. Oh well...at least I didn't find a way to TOTALLY screw myself.

Well I got antsy and finished the game in one of the most uneventful experiences in my life.


All my southern neighbors had massive power scores even after I whipped and drafted an army of around 30 units. More than enough for me on noble! Emperor had me concerned so I spent another 25 turns building up another similarly sized stack. Tell Willem to die and he throws his massive power at me! What seemed like 100 crossbows and 30 elephants.... really? Shaka at least had a stack of 30ish knights by the time I tried to make him capitulate and quickly supplemented these with grenadiers and musketmen.

Honestly figured I'd lose and didn't want to document that so I'm severely lacking pictures other than the very end when it dawned on me that I had actually won. Game was horribly uneventful and ground on as I started watching tv and never actually built infrastructure. Every city with only a few exceptions pumped a mounted unit or siege from about 1150 on. Not really proud of that but it was just hard to try and focus when I was running over longbows with cavalry from around 1300AD to 1750AD. Then I had to go up against the mighty grenadiers! Bleh.

The only picture I even bothered to take.
[img=http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/164/victory2cw8.th.jpg] (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=victory2cw8.jpg)

On the plus side this was partly possible due to just how great my capitol covered in cottages ended up performing. Ended up running Bureaucracy until 1800ish and the one city covered the costs of a sprawling empire without Wall Street or uh... even a bank :rolleyes: Think Darius is partly to thank for this heh.

Giving this a try to 1000 BC


tech path: wheel->pottery->mining->bw->ah->archery->math(partly)->myst->math->aesthetics
Built worker then warriors to happy cap.
Scout managed to find Mali and the Dutch.
Open borders with Dutch have mapped most of their land.
Barbs have settled two cities in jungle.
I really want that gem site.
I only have three cities.
Looking at everyone else my cities look underpowered but I wanted to expand towards the gems.
Teched archery and fog busted so have had no problems with barbs so far.
Teched math for better chops.
Unfortunately no one unit has collected a lot of xp.
Shaka declares on Mali.
Summary: crap start but slight hope I can get something out of this.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9751/darius1000bcscreenie000wv4.jpg

Initial tech.

Min, bw, myst, ah, whl, pot, fish, wrt, ast

Initial B/o's.

Capital; worker, warrior, warrior, StoneHenge, settler, settler, warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, immortal, settler. My Capital only had 1 Warrior fortified and never saw any action to good use of other fogbusting troops.

1st worker; farm, mine, mine, chop sh, chop sh, farm, road to city 2, road to horse, pasture, chop immortal, head to Capital to start cottages

1st city b/o; worker, immortal, immortal, granary. This city had 1 warrior fortified and 1 scout fogbusting and saw no action. My Scout had already encountered 1 bear and 3 lions and earned WII promotion.

1st city worker; help with pasture, chop immortal, mine

2nd city b/o; worker, worker.

2nd city worker; road to river for trade/connection, pasture, begin cottages. This city had 2 warriors fortified and defended against 2 barb warriors and 2 barb Archers. I saw the Archers coming and positioned myself on the other side of the river saving my butt.

3rd city b/o; worker. This city had 1 warrior fogbusting and never saw any action. This warrior fought off 2 warriors and 2 lions while fogbusting before the city was founded and also reached WII.
4th city b/o; worker. No action at anytime. Immortal is fogbusting.

4 screen shots.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

Final thoughts.

The layout of the land made it very easy to skimp on warriors or other anti barb units. The Capital, city 1, and city 3 have their boundaries not only touching but also against the coast. They have the perfect fogbusting cover. Makes things much easier when you plan ahead.

Next I'll plan to settle or conquer (barb) a lot more cities. My GP will be finished very soon and this helps. I'll time my next segment to coordinate with the completion of drama.

1000 BC

I have 4 cities settled among which a gem city to the far south-west. Capital is at size 7 and in full-out cottaging mode, growing as we speak. First satalite city built some axemen for defense, then switched to a library. It is currently working two cottaged floodplains and a scientist, to which another scientist will be added in 5 turns. The workforce is currently cutting down the jungles that are preventing us from harvesting the gemstones underneith them. We own the techs Monarchy, Iron Working and most of Mathematics (2 turns left). The plan is to tech Calendar next (via Fishing, Sailing) in order to exploit some of the resources in the capital BFC. From there on, it's straight to Civil Service. We have one grapevines tile that still needs improving in the capital BFC. Beaker per turn rate is around 50 and steadily rising.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8146/civ4screenshot0004le2.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0004le2.jpg)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5711/civ4screenshot0003kh8.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0003kh8.jpg)


10 AD

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5144/civ4screenshot0005uh5.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0005uh5.jpg)

Empire-wide break-even beaker/turn rate over 250. Owner of 6 cities with the 7th running about in Settler form. Philosophy, Code of Laws, Calendar, Civil Service and most of Paper are in. Founder of both Taoism and Confusionism. Currently teching towards Education so as to get the Oxford project running ASAP. Hope someone will trade me Stone or I'll be in for a drudge at the end of it.

Some thoughts on the mining/bw vs AH debate on initial tech path - in spoiler in case anyone hasn't played the first 50-100 turns:



It seems like a lot of people went mining/bw. I went AH, because with hunting and AG as initial techs, it was only 15 turns, not the usual 18-22 turns I usually see. Plus we have a chariot UU, so I would have thought hooking up horses would be a priority. Mining/BW is still 30+ turns, so it takes awhile to discover copper. I get that it opens slavery and chopping, but my thinking was hooking up those fast moving immortals early would help with barb busting and settler escort. In fact, it helped me immensely to quickly settle my superb blocking city way down south far away from my capital - any delay in that would have meant Willem would have gotten some of that land from me.

One big advantage I find from early AH is that a couple chariots really allow me to aggressively send my settlers off to block off land or to claim key resources like gold or gems. Time is of the essence in settling those key spots, and AH allows you to send a fast moving horse unit to accompany your settler and worker to the settling spot. I get it's not as useful if you're settling close to the capital as you don't need protection, but I like to aggressively block land when I can. Here it meant I only have to protect one border city - the AI can't even get to my other 12 cities unless they want to load up galleys.

In addition, having immortals early allowed me to delay BW a bit, since I didn't really want to use much slavery in this game - wanted to focus more on HR for large cities.

Well I got antsy and finished the game in one of the most uneventful experiences in my life.

I didnt read your spoiler, so I am not sure if this comment is an overlay to a "smooth, no surprises game" or a negative testimonial about playing with Random Events off, so I am assuming the later for the purposes of this response.

I am not a fan of no events. There, I said it. In fact, "not a fan" is too weak of a phrase. No-Huts . . . ok, I have read many threads about them, even started my own, and got a reasonable response. But No Events just makes a game that already gets rather rut-ridden and mundane at times into a snooze-fest.

IMHO, the biggest negative of No-Huts is the gold, without gold to deficit research, the slider drops the instant you found your 2nd city. Personally, I think the biggest negative of Yes-Huts is that the AI gets the vast majority and a string of Tech pops can mean insta-death on Immortal, and even Emp can be a struggle if Willem or Mansa suddenly comes to Open Borders at 2900 BC.

Speaking for myself, I have decided to leave both Huts and Events on, even if I ever become a Deity player (not bloody likely, since I dont even enjoy Immortal much). If I get a bad luck break, oh well, I can always restart, or play another game, but Huts and Events add too much flavor for me to stop using them.

Bleys...I'm pretty sure he's not talking about random events, but rather how the game felt in context to his life experience.

Um...I was able to upload to photobucket, so here goes the summary:

To 25 AD

Not much to say. Settled off the hill to be able to work it, went BW/pottery/worker tech/writing/monarchy/col/math/bureaucracy. The AIs get monarchy too slowly on emperor IMO. Obviously city 2 grabbed copper so I could skip archers.

I expanded like mad. Darius is unbelievably favorable to do this. We also have a lot of cottage heavy land. The AI also hates each other a lot so I pre-emptively closed a lot of borders to avoid too much diplo ire and keep hate focus elsewhere. This meant OB with shaka and stalin only I think. It also meant lots of wars for the AI but not for me.

Cottages are pretty strong:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

I grab the barb city early in the next segment with axes.

Bleys...I'm pretty sure he's not talking about random events, but rather how the game felt in context to his life experience.

I know bro, I just used to opening to soap-box for Events On in all the series games except the Cookbooks, since they actually do influence the voting in those (both ways) and thats sort of against the idea of those series'.

To 835 AD/lib

Here we are in 500 AD:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

The capitol:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Liberalism:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Other than that, it's just staying out of trouble. I kept some border axes, expanded, spammed archers for happiness, and let the cottages mature. I wound up with 4 hammer cities and the rest cottages, I got really lazy on great people after the library or I'd have probably gotten lib sooner. Second time I did that in this series...

To 1744 AD/Domination

Had some bad breaks, but it was ok.

After taking nationalism from lib, I went for military tradition, then guilds/gunpowder/chemistry, then rifles. While heading to rifles I was building knights then cuirassers from 4 workshop cities. The NE site with copper, the SE site with copper, the site along the south with iron, and the sheep site in the north. I hammered out quite a few pre cavalry, then produced more cavalry as I upgraded. The result was a decent/fast gunpowder strike force:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

But this map wouldn't be easy on me. Nope. Shaka is instantly bribed into the war, and because monty was willem's vassal and mansa shaka's, I faced basically the entire continent except a handful of cities belonging to stalin. Fun fun fun. So much for this being an easy one, but let's do it:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

HAHA! DIE!

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

They keep coming...

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

But I'm not so kind...

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

I finally pick willem off (I'd gone SP after rifling)

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

Monty actually wouldn't cap until I took a city. He was fine on his own? NOT.

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

Back to our neighbors who picked the wrong side:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

And once MM is gone will shaka cap?

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

Of course not. That would make too much effing sense wouldn't it. I hate this game's mechanics.

Anyway shaka had rifles by the time I got to the 2nd city of his he took. I hate magic rifles but whatever. I foresaw this and had spies/ep focus on him, and many of the cities I took had EP buildings, while I did also make some jails back home to deal with emancipation anger and WW back hom.

I'd long set up HE/WP during the other wars, as well as IW. Four cities had military academies too. Basically I had a LOT of cavalry per turn and always a fresh supply of some combat II/pinch guys, so shaka's rifles weren't scare with spies.

I beat shaka down a bit more and he caps for my domination win:

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

Holy crap ... a LOT of games. I will try to read through them all but I can't make any promises. Anyhow first of all on the no events, no huts. I normally play with both ... I LIKE both as well ... but for a tutorial series I turned them off. I would turn off resource popping from mines as well if I could. I'm just trying to eliminate as many random factors as I can for the purposes of instruction.

Now let me see about some feedback about the map. Since we're looking to play the next segment here starting tomorrow night its worth discussing the 2nd step of the CE process. First lets see what step #1 looked like.

Immediate Game Goals (4000BC->1000BC):

Scout for a potential rush target.
Get either horses or metal by 2000BC for barb defense (need horses by 2500BC if rushing)
Start building cottages by 2000BC, sooner if possible. Prioritize river tiles.
Try to get a 10XP unit either fighting barbs or in the rush so we can build HE.
If we choose to rush we probably need to have already taken an enemy capital by 1000BC.
If we don't rush we should have at least 4 expansions and be blocking off territory from the AI to set up a solid Rex for the next segment.


Now for the next steps in a CE we have a few pretty compelling ones.

#1. Start to grow our capital. This requires happiness and health resources as well as HR. If we do any whipping there it must be fairly calculated. A granary will be a big deal.

#2. Work our way towards Bureaucracy. To get Civil Service we will need Mathematics and Code of Laws. CoL most probably comes from Priesthood as well. We can trade for a lot of these techs.

#3. Land the Great Library if possible. While less compelling under CE than SE, the Glib is still a VERY nice source of Great Scientists. Ultimately that's the big win for us. We don't strictly have to build it in the capital if we don't want to though. If you have a decent GPfarm marked out already and you can drop it there in a reasonable amount of time go for it. That said this is NOT a strict requirement for a CE.

#4. What IS a strict requirement is we get ourselves at least 1 GS, but ideally 2-3. 1 for Academy capital, 2 for Education. If we can get 3 in time ... philosophy or even liberalism. All additional GS's should look into making academies in high commerce cities and we should look to build merchants and engineers from then on.

#5. Right our economy. While not technically tanked YET ... it will be soon. We are Fin/Org though so it won't be that bad and those cheap courthouses will come in handy. Still currency should be something of a priority and Calendar will come in handy as well since some of our food resources are Bananas. Tech trading will be a big factor here.

#6. Fill in our land. We have a gift of a parcel of land here and will need a small army of settlers and workers to make use of it. Don't fear building helper cities near the capital to grow cottages faster. I personally could see 2, possibly even 3 helper cities to help get the most out of those cottages. That said we have A LOT of other compelling sites to develop. We will need as many workers as possible here.

#7. Secure that front line. Most people will have the peninsula cut off shortly but we still must be mindful of other SoD's. We have two warmongers on our continent and while it shouldn't be too hard to keep them fighting each other we still must not neglect their appetite for a weak city. Catapults, HA's, and metal are the order of the day. Possibly even walls. Clear the trees adjacent to your frontline cities ... don't give them any advantage. You can neglect your military a bit if you can keep everyone else fighting but don't get lazy. You're only a turn away from Shaka making peace with whomever and turning on you.

I find it just freakin' crazy I only met one other civ by 1000BC. Most everyone else met Willam, Shaka, Monty or Mansa and Stalin. Lol cant remember if its Monty or Mansa or both.
My first city went close to Willem, and I got most of my contacts once I opened borders with him. Willem sort of blocks off many of the AIs, but he is often the first to Writing and tends to open borders quickly.

Hey feral if you can make diplo give roughly 0 war odds why would you advocate building defenses beyond HR garrisons?

Hey feral if you can make diplo give roughly 0 war odds why would you advocate building defenses beyond HR garrisons?

Because I know nothing about diplomacy. :) I'm all combat and empire management myself. That said I don't think its a bad thing for players to get used to building defensive forces at emperor level.

I will say this ... I'm pretty sure it will be easy to keep most of the AIs fighting each other endlessly. I think Shaka and Mansa actually have hidden negative modifiers against each other? I don't know the diplomacy too much. I just know Mansa is almost guaranteed to be friendly with us here, Monty almost guaranteed to hate us. Shaka and Stalin will be borderline but both attack with poor odds. Willem will just happily trade with us forever until we decide we want his land. I believe everyone here can and will declare at pleased though which is the only thing that semi-scares me.

Because I know nothing about diplomacy. :) I'm all combat and empire management myself. That said I don't think its a bad thing for players to get used to building defensive forces at emperor level.

I will say this ... I'm pretty sure it will be easy to keep most of the AIs fighting each other endlessly. I think Shaka and Mansa actually have hidden negative modifiers against each other? I don't know the diplomacy too much. I just know Mansa is almost guaranteed to be friendly with us here, Monty almost guaranteed to hate us. Shaka and Stalin will be borderline but both attack with poor odds. Willem will just happily trade with us forever until we decide we want his land. I believe everyone here can and will declare at pleased though which is the only thing that semi-scares me.

Yeah everyone you've met declares at pleased. There is a big peace weight variance between monty/shaka and MM, and somewhat less of one (but still there) between the two idiots and Willem. Stalin's weight is pretty low too so he's a lot like monty/shaka only tends to suck more.

Thing is, if willem has closed borders or is at war with them, they can't attack :p. Also, the odds of the AI going across another AI borders to make war with us when it has a border worst enemy are slim to none. The most threatening person to us on this map is actually willem for most of the early game, but it's a pretty marginal threat. He has other things to worry about, like monty and people he's below cautious with, which monty/shaka usually will be.

Building military is often a good thing but excluding more useful short term builds because the opportunity is there is frequently better. You just have to make sure you can protect yourself although things like WHEOOHRN and some minimal border garrisons/city on hill or whatever will do in most games.

well, its 100AD and the game is all but won. i have tons of land, and the second best leader in the game. space would be too easy, might try conquest or some such lark...

I didnt read your spoiler, so I am not sure if this comment is an overlay to a "smooth, no surprises game" or a negative testimonial about playing with Random Events off, so I am assuming the later for the purposes of this response.

Eh it was more of a "the AI was even dumber than normal and for jumping up difficulties I was hoping for more" comment. However, no random events was also quite boring and I most assuredly prefer to play with them on. I do not mind no huts however as popping 2-3 settlers as opposed to a few maps can really swing the difficulty level of the game and after quitting World of Warcraft the lower the RNG influence the happier I am.

Just meant failing to complete wonders for gold was actually part of my early game strategy. Actually had to stop building Stonehenge with 2 turns left as I wanted the gold more than I wanted the benefits at the time. That sounds dumber in writing then it did in my head.

I do not mind no huts however as popping 2-3 settlers as opposed to a few maps can really swing the difficulty level of the game . . .
As soon as you hit Noble, there will never be another Settler or Worker in any hut, for the Human or the AI.

My problem with Huts is that the AI starts with so many units it can cover the land and pop 3 times as many as I can. When they pop techs . . . its like a double-whammy, especially at higher levels where they already have huge bonuses. I have gotten Open Border requests in the 3000 BC area, and then watched as they ran away with the tech lead and dominated their neighbors. And the time it happened to me was Monarch, I cant imagine getting an OB request at 3100 BC on Immortal, I might just re-start rather than try to run through that brick wall.

As soon as you hit Noble, there will never be another Settler or Worker in any hut, for the Human or the AI.

Good to know. So many little points that I'm completely ignorant about. I see your point about AI tech rate though, as that would certainly be daunting.

To 1000 AD.http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/cseanny/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg
Some thoughts.I don't like the HR route because it's inflexible, makes you keep troops at home instead of wherever, not to mention, the biggest thing in the book, for me at least, WW. Of course, if your creative then it's a hammer saver too (perhaps regardless)Drama gives you free rain of the slider and lets you have the most room to maneuver. Besides, you will be able to trade for Monarchy and all those techs leading up to it at some point. Then you have slider + monarchy.

Continuing from the 1000 BC I finished Ast, Drama, Alp, traded for sailing, IW, Mat and COL at some point, then researched Cur, CS, bulbed Phil, researched Paper, bulbed half of Edu, then finished Lib in 890ish. Getting SH early cost me 1 GS but it was still worth it. I also traded for Feud, MC, Cal, and Cons. I couldn't get Machinery......rather, I got machinery, I couldn't get Engineering.

So, to date I have built SH, GL, Parth, and finished Lib in the late 800's and took Nation. I built the HE and NE in my GP Farm/Production city. I have started the Taj Mahal and plan to coordinate everything so I can run 3 golden ages back to back to back. In the 1st Gage I plan to switch to caste and pacifism while pulling in over 160 GPP per turn which will net me 3 great people in 10-12 turns because I have already planned ahead and my next GP will be finished almost immediately upoon completion of the Taj. The rest of my empire will be either researching wealth or building needed things for the first 2 golden ages which will accelerate my research to Democracy A LOT.

By the time I start my 3rd consecutive G age I will have PP and DEM and will then run my science slider at 0% while all cities focus on wealth. I'll be pulling in 700-900 gpt. 7-9,000 gold will let me rush buy about 36 maces and 15 cannons in about 8 turns. Game over =) Or at least leading to it by that point for sure..

Last note, always use Binary Research. It will save you 10-20 research turns a game, minimum.. 100 beakers at 100% nets you 125 with a library. 70% of 100 beakers is 70. 70 beakers + 25% for a library is about 94 beakers. The same holds even truer when using a SE. @ blocking off and initial tech preferences.
The southern part of this map is wide open making any blocking attempts harder and the only thing you might block is yourself from your city. Then again, with access to horses and one of the best UU in the game, there is no need to worry about it anyway.

I prefer to grow to size 5, or 4 with only 4 tiles improveable to 4production. This allows me 2 things. 1st, my research will be faster if I can work more tiles with commerce and because I will have no maintenance cost. 2nd, by the time my 1st settler is finished I will already have BW, AH, and the Whl.

I've accidentally deleted my save AGAIN, so I'm playing without intermediate steps.

To 1140 AD (late lib):



First: I need to start researching Monarchy earlier. I always wait FOREVER to trade for it. Result: my capital is size 11 at 1140. Bad.
Second: faster expansion. Did a better job than usual here, but I need to improve. I still worry about my economy, but when pottery and writing are done, there is no such thing as unrecoverable crash.


Tech path: mining - bw - masonry - mysticism - wheel - ah - pottery - fishing - writing - aesthetics - IW and meditation (Will) - poly, priesthood and sailing (Mansa) - literature - CoL - mathematics and archery (Will) - CS - monarchy, alpha, monotheism and calendar (Will) - currency and construction (Mansa) - paper - MC (Will) - edu - philo (bulb) - liberalism + nationalism - researching gunpowder


4000 - Settle 1E

3150 - First AI is Mansa.

2900 - Scout dead.

2625 - Pasargadae:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0000-75.jpg

2250 - Great Wall:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0001-72.jpg

1750 - Stalin.

1650 - Susa:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0002-72.jpg

1150 - Ecbatana:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0003-70.jpg

1025 - Finally met Will. He's my closest neighbor, but he never sent a scout this way.

675 - Montezuma.

455 - Tarsus:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0004-67.jpg

440 - Great Spy settled.

110 - Barb city razed:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0005-66.jpg

65 - Montezuma declares war vs Will.

25 AD - I join the war vs Monte. He can't reach me, there's Willem between us.
Gepid captured and an Immortal unlocks the Heroic Epic:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0006-67.jpg

70 AD - Gordium:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0007-66.jpg

325 - Great Library:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0008-61.jpg

400 - Crap. Montezuma capitulates to Willem. Should have bribed him out.

415 - GS finally builds an academy in Persepolis.

520 - Stalin declares war vs Mansa.

805 - Bactra:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0009-63.jpg

950 - Sardis:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0010-52.jpg

970 - Finally Shaka shows himself. He was one of the first AIs I met in my first game.

1000 - Meet Pericles and GS bulbs philo.

1050 - Crap II. Stalin capitulates to Mansa. So, to sum it up. Two warmongers (Monte and Stalin) declared war vs two peaceniks (Will and Mansa) and got completely owned, vassaled by said peaceniks.

1140 - I win lib:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0011-51.jpg

Empire:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0014-31.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0015-29.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0016-27.jpg

Techs. Will and Mansa already shared everything with their vassals:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0012-43.jpg

Luckily Will and Mansa don't like each others:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0013-38.jpg

So many little points that I'm completely ignorant about. I see your point about AI tech rate though, as that would certainly be daunting.
No worries mate. The very, very best advice I can give on how to play Civ IV is "Read the forums". You will pick up stuff like this as it starts to gain importance in your games.

Huts can be fun, especially at lower levels. At Noble and Prince, one "trick" is to start with another Scout or Warrior, then go for a Worker, JUST to go find more huts. I actually used to do that quite a bit, but its a very cheesy thing because as you go up in levels of difficulty, it will actually hurt you.

Personally, as I said, I enjoy huts and events. I have basically decided that I will keep huts on despite the danger of having the AI get out to a blazing start, because the gold/map/tech I get from the 2 or 3 I will find is worth it (to me). Others have different opinions and thats one of the biggest beauties of this game. There are no "absolutes" in Civ. There are usually a number of different "right answers", and while some may be more "right" than others, that doesnt make less perfect choices "wrong". The biggest key is to HAVE FUN. So if building the Mids every game, or turning off Huts, or WBing in Stone and Marble in your BFC at 4000 BC is fun, by all means, go for it.

Sorry for the off-topic derail feral, this is shaping up to be a fun series and I am looking forward to future rounds. I hope we do a TRE next, lots of great leaders for that one, Willy, Hannibal, Vicky, Washington, Mehmed, Ragnar, Joao, heck any leader with FIN (water tiles are stronger), IND (GLH helper), ORG (Courthouses and LHs), EXP (Granaries and Harbors) is very playable. Other good traits for that style of game are IMP (for REXing, since you likely will make your own settlers), CHA (mostly for the Happiness bonus, since you want bigger cities ASAP), CRE (again, the doubled buildings), and even PHI (SE tasctics can be really strong with this economic system, since you will have less cottagable land, and more food+commerce tiles, i.e. Fish instead of Corn, Clams instead of Wheat, which make an SE thrive). Its a fun system and not difficult to play at all. TRs arent really micro-manageable, they just happen, so you have more time to focus on other things like exploring and REXing (always get an extra Work Boat or 2 our early).

Oh, one other off-topic thing, for EmperorFool, is that dot-map you have from the stuff you're working on for BUG? Looks awesome mate, you guys deserve a credit on the Box, and BUG should be offered as an in-game choice of UI's.

Just a couple of questions/ thoughts about this game, 1. When is it too late to go after the Oracle with marble hooked up, I can start at 1000BC, is that too late? 2. I settled in place, now I've only got 1 resource in the capital's BFC, I don't care if it's got oil, coal, aluminium and uranium. 1 resource for 5000 years is never enough!!!!

Huts can be fun, especially at lower levels

If you're wondering how that settler 20 BC culture win got there...that's how.

1000 BC



http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8122/map0000lk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/map0000lk0.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img526/map0000lk0.jpg/1/)

Got peninsula secured with some great cottage cities in Susa and Phonecia. Self researched IW to insure I could get the jungles down. Should be able to get a unit promoted up soon by picking off a few more barbs with Immortals. Settler going to Fish Pig Cu Marble city NE of Persopolis which will be worker/settler pump initially and then possibly GP farm. Getting a good production city is an issue I have'nt worked out yet.

Haven't seen Ai lands yet but I got a message indicating Susa wanted to join Willie so he must be over there not too far. Have OB hoping that he'll spread Buddhism. Since met Mansa first, suppose he's close over there as well. Need to get a warrior scouting down there post haste.

Will finish Aesthetics, but not sure what will come next. So far no one has Alphabet. Although it means self researching a couple of religious techs I think I'll head for Monarchy and HR for increased happy caps since its on the way to CoL and even though we have a number of Calendar resources thats a lot farther to go on the tech tree. With marble can build GL fairly quickly maybe away from Persopolis. Just have to watch out for Stalin and get back to Literature in time to keep him off the GL.

EmperorFool, is that dot-map you have from the stuff you're working on for BUG? Looks awesome mate, you guys deserve a credit on the Box, and BUG should be offered as an in-game choice of UI's.

Thanks! Yes, the in-game dot-mapping tool is in our current development version. It works just like the sign tool (ALT + S), plus you can hide/show all the BFCs to see the map better. If all goes well, we'll release a new installer for BUG within a week.

When is it too late to go after the Oracle with marble hooked up, I can start at 1000BC

Yea, too late. For Emperor and Immortal you need to complete it no later than 1240 BC (AI's still complete it at 1500's and earlier sometime). If you still get the Oracle past that date you were simply lucky the AI's sucked because that is not the norm =).

That means with Industrious and no chops you typically start the Oracle at 1800 BC, or, if you are not Industrious, then 1700 BC + chops should be safe.

Correct. Most early wonders are a "get them by 1000BC or else" kind of affair. That's not to say they won't go very late ... but if your strategy requires them then aim for 1000BC. That said if you have spare hammers when you have a resource like this it can still be worth going for since you will get a 2:1 return on the :hammers: invested in :gold: ... which is awesome ... and worst case is you just get the wonder. Win-win really if you don't have anything better to do. That said on emperor there's ALWAYS something to be doing.

I kind of sleepwalked through some of this, but here is my report through 355 AD (played til 3 AM, heh, so bear with me):

First off, shortly into this set, Willy decided to drop a city in a spot that I didnt like. So I decided to do a shorty war with Will, raze the city, and get peace ASAP. I noticed the borders of my closest city were going to pop soon, so I hoped he wouldnt try to re-settle. He eventually did re-settle the area, but in a much better spot for me. I didnt want to try to compete with those cows with a CRE leader, thats for sure. I had built 8 or 9 Immys and a few Axes and Spears already, so I wasnt worried about retaliation, and sure enough, Willy made peace fast, straight up.

Heres the spot, check it out and let me know :

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpgDoes anyone know how the mechanics of AIs settling works? Is there some numbers as to how far from my culture, how many open tiles, etc, that goes into that decision? He originally settled on the hill with the Ruins, I razed it the turn it was made, and about 20 turns later he re-settled the spot 2S 1W of his original, because my borders had since popped to their current position.

I actually pulled a bit of a move, I traded my extra Copper to Vicky for Elephants, and built the SoZ in that city you see that borders Willy, heh. I am also trying to build MoM there now (I have played through 800 AD), for both the culture and the future of my Golden Ages. SoZ and MoM are both +10 culture Wonders, and with the resources and a few forests, its not to hard to whack em out. Willy can be hard to push back, he founded Confu in his border city, which I am in but he is not, since he also founded Buddhism and built the Shrine. Almost all his cities have Confu though, so my medium-term goal post-Lib is to vassalize him and use his land as a buffer from those whacko's on the other side (poor Mansa, heh).

Shaka actually DoWed on me the turn after I hit Willy, and would not take peace for many, many years. Finally a small stack of his showed up, I took out a couple of them, and he gave peace for some gold, but what a PITA. BTW, you see Willy in Confu in that pic, thats because I bribed him into it to try and get him to re-open borders with me. One of the problems with those quicky wars, especially since I razed a city. Still worth it though. He'll never out-culture me til he builds a Shrine in the Confu Holy City, and when he does, thats my cue to pull the trigger with whatever I have, so that culture wont be relevant.

So heres a few more pics of the status of my Empire. Lots of GG's being Born in Distant Lands, and I still have a few more cities to settle. I managed to get the GL pretty quickly, and now I am pushing the pop's up as quickly as I can.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpgWaiting for that Barb City in the NW to hit 2 pop so I dont waste a settler up there. I actually have 2 more settlers in queue now to start filling it out. Tech rate is still nice.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpgMachinery, hoping to get to Chemistry with beakers, and Lib with GS's, Steel will own this map I think.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpgHeres the sleepwalking part. I hadnt really noticed how far up the Lib line some AIs were already, and I didnt trade any of the techs. I missed Philo, though, built the Academy instead, and for some reason, Vicky teched through Paper and traded it around. At least the Koo Koo leaders arent up to speed, but still, Pericles can be dangerous. I am actually considering a long-term plan to use some Navy to hit Mansa from the north (now that I know the map in 800, but its pretty obvious just from what I have now. Roaming Impi got my mapping Scouts, heh)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Darius%20CE/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpgNot much of a shock, with 4 religions in play on a single landmass map. To say much more would actually be a spoiler, but of course, things may go differently in other games. Overall, I am enjoying the game. Its got plenty of Builder attitude, but the proximity of war makes it tense. Monty or Shaka could drop 50 units on me at any time, they have both been in WHEOOHs forever. I have a decent number of balanced troops though, including a few Cats despite no intention of a war before Trebs, and possibly Steel if I can, so if they come, I can fight. I have also been somewhat stingy with my forests, although I did chop out the SoZ and GL in their respective cities. I have my HE city founded (the common one SE of the cap, awesome Prod site) and Marble makes it even better. I always head up the Aesthetics line early anyway, and Marble is so strong as an "extra". I could have built the Parth, but the lame Barbs wouldnt found more than 2 keepable cities.

Played a little further to 575BC. Really hoping for some advice.

I was convinced I was isolated. Never came across this before in any game. Took almost 3000 yrs for a civ ~20 tiles away to find me. Granted, I should have found him first, but I didnt have a unit to spare after my 2 initial scouting units got killed. Was too busy fighting barbs before copper got hooked up. I just assumed if no one had found me by now I dont need to rush out settlers for blocking. I chose the Oracle instead.

Anyhow, first thing I do is send out a couple warriors to find Willem. My immediate plan is to build nothing but settlers/workers in the Capital and defense units in my other 2 cities. Just completely wreak my economy expanding.

Not sure on how to best block Willem. Ive attached the save. Im thinking settling the first city where my settler is now. Using this city claiming cows, spice, and gems and the barb city to block Willem.

Now I see a few options. Capture the barb city and try to battle Willem's culture(not fun). Plunk down a couple cities around the barb city then raze it. Basically Im unsure if I should try to keep the barb city and plan my cities around it, or ignore its location and plan on it being gone. One problem is if Willem captures it first he will have a stronghold on all the gems. So many options running through my head. Really not sure what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Im shocked at how slow the AI are teching. Im use to Prince, and even at that lvl Im usually further behind at this point. I plan to trade Math to Willem for IW before I end turn. Start teching Aes and gonna try for the GL. Im thinking of putting it in Pasargadae my GP farm rather than the Cap. Or perhaps I should go for currency to help with expansion cost. Or maybe Monarchy and raise the happy cap.

204378

1140 - 1820, end:



1190 - GS builds academy in my second best science city, Gepid.

1260 - Shaka comedy moment. He declares war vs Mansa and his vassal Stalin, losing a city in the very first turn of war. He's small, horribly backward and squeezed between Mansa and Stalin. Genius.

1280 - Taj:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0000-76.jpg

1400 - I don't want Mansa with two vassals. Stalin is enough:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0001-73.jpg

1410 - GS starts golden age.

1415 - I finally meet the last AI, Victoria.

1450 - I'm ready to declare war vs Will and I give him some distraction:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0002-73.jpg

1465 - DoW. Spies ready in pretty much every dutch city:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0003-71.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0004-68.jpg

1470 - Nijmegen caotured (Mausoleum).

1490 - Maastricht captured and Montezuma's little stack appears. Monte is Willem's vassal.

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0005-67.jpg

1500 - Tekedda captured. Small coastal malinese city culture-flipped by dutch culture.

1505 - Rotterdam captured (Shwedagon Paya).

1510 - Amsterdam:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0006-68.jpg

1535 - The Hague captured. Kremlin and Notre Dame.

1545 - Utrecht (SY and military academy).

1550 - Monte breaks free.

1555 - Middelburg captured. Monte moves in a bigger stack and I sign peace with him. Cuirassiers are kinda scattered around.

1565 - Leiden captured and Willem is out:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0007-67.jpg

1585 - Shaka declares war vs Vicky.

1610 - I declare vs Montezuma and wait for his stack.

1630 - Stack shows up as predicted:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0008-62.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0009-64.jpg

1645 - Tlateloco captured.

1660 - Mansa is researching assembly line at this point, but still doesn't have rifling.

1665 - Tenochtitlan captured. Hindu shrine and a couple wonders. Monte's willing to cap, but I want to get rid on his culture pressure on Tenochtitlan.

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0010-53.jpg

1675 - Teotihuacan captured and Montezuma is done:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0011-52.jpg

1675 - Mansa still doesn't have rifling. But he has researched assembly line and I fear I will end fighting infantry with cavalry. Not pretty, so I'll tech to infantry/cannons before attacking him.

1746 - A couple fillers:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0012-44.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0013-39.jpg

1754 - And the last city:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0014-32.jpg

1766 - Now I'm ready:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0015-30.jpg

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0016-28.jpg

1770 - Djenne captured and Mansa's main stack destroyed (over 30 units). Statue of Liberty inside.

1780 - Timbuktu:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0017-25.jpg

1782 - Secondary stack captures Adwaghost on the N coast. Mansa is willing to capitulate.

1792 - 2nd stack keep going on the coast and Gao is captured.

1798 - Kumbi Saleh captured by the main stack. Another nice shrine:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0018-24.jpg

1806 - Mansa is done, but I want a couple more cities. The secondary stack stays there to mop-up and I declare war vs Shaka with the main stack.

1810 - Walata (coast) captured by 2nd stack.

KwaDukuza captured and main Shaka's stack (30ish units) destroyed. Enough for the clown:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0019-22.jpg

1812 - Stalin breaks free. He still was Mansa's vassal.

1816 - Tadmekka captured by 2nd stack.

1818 - And a mini third stack captures Hsung-Nu down in the tundra.

1820 - I'm pushing on Stalin, but the game is over:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0020-18.jpg


World:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0021-17.jpg

Demographics:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0022-17.jpg

Power:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0023-15.jpg

Stats:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0024-16.jpg

Score:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0025-12.jpg

Techs:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0026-10.jpg

Capital:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/AiShizuka/Civ4ScreenShot0028-9.jpg



I really need to prioritize Monarchy. Could have easily won 100 years earlier. A capital like this should hit size 10 at 10AD, not 1000 AD.

And please, could someone explain me what's so . .. .. .. .ING hot about fishing boats. Really, it's one of the things I hate the most in this game. Getting completely owned, and they still keep razing those . .. .. .. .ing boats again and again. It's like they consider them the n.1 priority in any war.

Lets play the 2nd Segment
The next segment is from 1000BC->400AD.

I realize a lot of people have gone much further ahead but the pace of the tutorial is such that everyone is supposed to be able to keep up so that hopefully discussion can occur with each step. I apologize that I have not been able to keep up with every game here along the way ... compared to the SE tutorial this one has had MUCH higher participation and additionally work has been fairly overwhelming this week. Regardless its time to forge ahead and hopefully for the next section I can be a bit more responsive.

Immediate Game Goals (1000BC->400AD):

Grow our capital: The capital is the heart of a CE and we want to be able to work as much :commerce: as possible come Bureaucracy. The proper abuse of Bureaucracy is our key to an early Liberalism. This means a Granary, health and food resources, and likely Monarchy.
Civil Service: The other half of the equation is this key technology. It requires Code of Laws and Mathematics. The sooner we can make it to Bureaucracy the sooner our research can take off.
The Great Library: Nowhere near as important or strong as under an SE its still a very nice to have since it will provide us at least 1 Great Scientist and more if we work it. It does not have to be built in our capital if we have another likely site.
Economy: In order to properly continue our expansion we need to get our economy in order. Likely it hasn't hit rock bottom yet but with proper expansion it likely will. Cheap Courthouses and Currency should do the trick.
Expand: We have a lot of nice land and the sooner we can get it covered in productive cities the better we are. Ultimately this is the key to long term success.
Protect Ourselves: Either through diplomacy or defensive SoDs we need to ensure Shaka, Monty, and Stalin stay at arms length.


As for my specific game I believe I am going to make this game a peaceful victory which most likely means space (since I have no capacity for diplomatic victory and no stomach for cultural victory). I'm doing this for a couple of reasons ... first of all I am just VERY GOOD at warmonger victories so I don't think I'll be showing much that's interesting to a new player there. Second of all I think a new emperor player could afford to see how a mad-rush to space might look. I have a feeling the EASIEST path to victory in this game is going to be a very early lib into Cuirassers running over backwards civs who won't even have machinery at that point ... this map just lends itself to that style of win.

1000 AD to 1742 – domination. Land is power. Sorry - I know the follow along game is more paced, but I'm too impatient - besides, when the wife is out of town, I have to take advantage of maximum civ time.



Was 1 turn from lib at 1000, debating whether to delay for a better tech – I chose not to because I’m slightly concerned about my overall power especially with all the warmongers on the map. Figure lib-nationalism-Taj while beelining mil tradition and rifles makes sense to get power upgraded. I can get my immortals upgraded to cavalry and overrun the world, especially with my GP farm running merchants. So…lib:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

Building Taj and units to get ready…and sure enough, my concerns were right on. A sneak attack - 3 turns from Taj, and realistically, 3 turns from where I’m about to obscenely upgrade my army to devastate, he must have sensed it:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

I swear he was pleased with me a few turns back. I have about 20 units in my border city, but they’re mostly immortals, with a few maces – not yet upgraded. So, I enlist my tech pal and current BFF to help out:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

And here goes…My 20 turn run of bad luck continues, as I’m beaten to Taj by 1 turn apparently by Willem as well. Ugh – he gets the golden age and backstabs me. Crappy start to this round, but no worries - once all these cities grow, they will pay. At least I can upgrade 5 immortals to knights as a result of losing Taj - very helpful. I drop the slider to 0 for a few turns, upgrade my immortals to knights, and he suicides a bunch of units into my one city. Knights, maces, pikes and cats aren't taking a city with loads of flanking knights in it. It's also fantastic to only have to defend one city – no one can attack anywhere else unless they used galleys, so I have 25 units holed up in one city. Monty his vassal sends a few units, but not many. They’ve both been warring too much to have a huge army, so I just defend and wait until I hit cavalry for the counterstrike. I start my counterstrike when he leaves a city poorly defended:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

You pissed me off too much Willem - no capitulation for you. What's that Karate kid line - "an enemy deserves no mercy". Meanwhile everyone else is teching up toward democracy apparently. You all do that while I tech my beloved cavalry. This is why I HATE the auto-assigned spy:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0004-1.jpg

I was running merchants the whole time in that city – it should have been 100% chance of popping a merchant. Stupid game thinks I want a spy, and I don’t catch it in time…on 6% odds, a spy. Oh well – he’ll go infiltrate Mansa. My, how pretty Amsterdam of Persia looks.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0005-1.jpg

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg

And a bit later, he’s finished.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0007-1.jpg

Bad idea to backstab. Monty’s next. Mansa just DOWed Shaka, which is perfect for me – keep him busy while I obliterate Monty. I’ll be back for them. A GE is kind enough to pop on low odds – makes up for the spy BS. He finishes ironworks in my HE city - 1 cavalry per turn. Die Monty – nice war booty:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0008-1.jpg

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0009-1.jpg

I love shrined AI cities. Especially now that I’m in communism. Night night Monty.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0010-1.jpg

Here come my horses Shaka – first things first – we can’t have Mansa continue to beat you down and make you capitulate, so my merchant's trade mission to Mansa results in me sharing the wealth:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

And Shaka, you always kill my early game horses – good luck with these horsies - check out the experience - this is why I love horses - 9XP before settled generals:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

3 turns later, he had enough. And now time for Mansa – I don’t feel like attacking the other continent, even though they'd be easier - I've built like 3 naval units the whole game. Let’s see how fast this goes – city 1:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

He then launches a couple massive counterattacks, but flanking cavalry dominate all…especially when you have over 50 of them. After city 2, he and Stalin have had enough.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

And that’s enough for this:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

This screen to me is what was telling about my game.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

Look at what that third city placement did for me - the blue spot in the center - Susa in 1750 BC. It blocked an obscene amount of land, and as long as I could defend it, there was no chance of losing from this point forward. Just rex out the land, beeline lib, and dominate with ridiculous production the last 100 or so turns. My number 1 strategy out of the gate in every game is to try to find a blocking point like that. Score:

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii402/michmbk/emperor%20darius/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

My highest score yet – by about a thousand or two over several different games. Only my fourth emperor game though, so this one turned out pretty good. 3 out of 4 wins so far on emperor, although 2 were set up for success, so I almost don't count those. I accidentally missed printing the build screen, and i was too tired to go back to the last autosave, but I basically built about 120 cavalry, 25 immortals, a few cuirassiers, knights, cannons and infantry. That was about it - oh, and a boatload of workers built/stolen too - 28 in total. Barracks and Stables in just about every city. Flanking was the promotion of the game – I love those flanking horses in mass quantity. I'm already looking forward to the genghis game.

Feral can you post some tips and what you are planning to do in the next segment as you head towards space race?

Well I cant think about that just yet, right now I need to focus on GLib, and then Bureaucracy. Getting Bureaucracy and having a large enough capital to use it are key right now ... everything else is secondary.

Ok here's my game from 1000BC->400AD. I think next series I will screw with the segments a bit as this one is only 80 turns and definitely feels short.


Well my first task was filling out my land a bit. The Barbs had a nice city but I was pretty sure Willem would take them soon so they were kind of a priority. I also needed to setup that horse city north of my frontline as a secondary unit pump to Pasagarde as well as Marble for my Great Library.

I spend a lot of my BC's building workers and improving the land I have. I think around 300BC or so I conquered that barb city which was probably letting it go too long. I also settled the city NE of the capital in this time since it was just too enticing and set it up as my Great People farm and eventual Wall Street city. A part of me wanted to settle SE of the capital to get a city helping on cottages but these other sites were too enticing. By 10AD I was in good shape with an Academy on the way soon and the Great Library would be finished in a couple of turns.

Here's the situation at 10AD, me still in a commanding tech lead.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-10AD-UpperOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-10AD-LowerOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-10AD-TechScreen.jpg

And 55AD brings me
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-55AD-GreatLibrary.jpg

The next set of turns went by in a blur. Great Library, Academy, Currency, CS. By 400AD I am racing through paper with a GS on the way to finish Education up once I get there. I'm in really good shape for a fairly early liberalism which I am going to try and shoot for Scientific Method with or maybe even physics. Physics is the Rifling of the the space-race liberalism. Anyhow here's the 400AD situation ... again still in command of all the meaningful tech.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-400AD-UpperOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-400AD-LowerOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-400AD-Technology.jpg



And here's the play by play

950BC - Trade monty pottery for archery. Now I can build some cheap garrison units.
925BC - Found Ectabana between horses/marble/rice/cows. This will be another unit pump and get me some clydsedales. Start producing Galleys in Pasagarde, will make 2 to defend coast.
900BC - Get two workers heading to Ectabana to work on chopping out the monument and getting the marble hooked up for GLib.
750BC - Finish worker in Persepolis, start on settler and employ a scientist while working corn, 1x hills, and 2xFPs. Need that GS and need granary done quickly before GLib rush. May whip granary out right before Glib.
725BC - Finish Granary in Susa, start on library and begin working both cottages.
625BC - Chop out Monument in Ectabana, start on granary. Work on roads to and from Marble and horses. Nearly have all cities connected.
500BC - Finish Aesthetics, start on Lit.
425BC - 1 pop whip out Settler in Persepolis, start on granary. Finish 2nd galley in pasagarde, start on granary.
400BC - Change around Persepolis so working 2xFP, 1 hill, and scientist. Can't let it grow to size 5 for 15 turns.
380BC - Found Tarsus NE of capital. Start pre-chopping around Persepolis for Glib. All cities hooked up by roads.
350BC - Ectabana border pops, 2 workers start on marble.
320BC - Trade Aesthetics/Poly to Shaka for IW/Priesthood/Meditation. That trade pisses him off from pleased to cautious ... lol. Still have monopoly on alphabet, but next turn shooting for CoL and Monarchy so probably losing it. Whip out granary in Pasagarde, should finish immortal.
305BC - Ectabana finishes granary, starts on Axe. Going to be a 2nd unit pump. Change Persepolis from working hill to working corn. Will chop out granary when literature comes. Trade Aes/IW to Willem for monarchy. Revolt.
290BC - Trade mansa Monarchy/Aes for CoL. Still have monopoly on Alphabet. Go Buddhist, revolt.
275BC - Conquer Barb city before Willem moves on it. Willem is really pushing my border. Get a free worker.
245BC - Shaka DoWs on Mansa.
200BC - Finish Lit, start on Currency. Start on Glib in Persepolis. Pasagarde finishes 2nd Immortal, starts on courthouse.
155BC - Monty DoWs on Willem ... everyone is at war and no one has Alphabet yet!
140BC - Whip out barracks in Ectabana, start on Axe then courthouse. Trade Lit to willem for OR.
125BC - Aztecs take one of Willem's cities ... awesome. Willem is my only real rival on this map, die fool!
95BC - Whip out monument in Tarsus, start on Granary->Library (will be NE city).
20BC - Finish scout in Pasagarde, start on workboat for tarsus.
10AD - Whip out library in Susa, start on Buddhist Monastery (need to spread that religion).
40AD - Pasagarde finishes workboats, starts on settler x 2. Time to cover our land with joy. Whip out Glib in Persepolis, start on buddhist Monastery. Whip out Courthouse in Ectabana, start on Buddhist monastery.
55AD - Employ 2 scientists in Persepolis.
100AD - GS born in Persepolis, build academy. Employ only 1 scientist now to help growth.
115AD - Whip Buddhist monasteries in Susa and Ectabana. Susa has courthouse next, Ectabana Missionary x 2.
145AD - Finish Currency. Trade it to Willem for Math/OR/25 :gold:. Trade Currency/Lit to Mansa for MC + 110 :gold:. Revolt OR, start researching CS.
160AD - Trade Col/lit to willem for Calendar. My tech lead is basically erased now but I can boom my economy. Whip out settler in Pasagarde, start on forge. Whip out monk in ectabana, start on forge. Run 100% research slider to bang out CS fast.
205AD - Persepolis grows to size, employ 2nd scientist.
220AD - Trade crap techs to crap civs for some decent :gold:. Will be able to run 100% probably all the way through paper.
235AD - Finish Courthouse in Susa, start on walls. Whip out forge in Pasagarde, start on lighthouse to get in some growth.
250AD - Whip out forge in Ectabana, start on military units so that when these guys all stop killing each other they don't attack me.
295AD - Stalin Dow's on me with a chariot and an archer. I think he missed the memo where you're supposed to build offensive units to use on the attack.
325AD - Finish CS, start on Paper. Revolt to Bureaucracy.
385AD - Willem makes peace with Monty.
400AD - Stalin accepts peace for 5 :gold:. 2 turns from paper. 7 turns from a GS for education.

feralminded:

With all due respect, 8 cottages being worked in 400 AD is not much of a CE. :sad: Your tech progress to this point is impressive, but I'm thinking it's not due to an efficient CE, but more likely due to keeping costs low with a small empire and military, and major tech trading skill.

I have some disagreements with some of the CE concepts presented in this thread so I thought I'd point them out for anyone interested to consider.

Regarding the first round:

1. There seemed to be an emphasis on an early Pottery opening, and I think this could lead to some misunderstanding that this is an essential part of a CE (which it isn't IMO).

This strategy certainly leads to a fast early tech rate, but it does so at a significant cost: slowing early development. It trades :food:/:hammers: for :commerce:, and since you need :food:/:hammers: for things like workers, settlers and barb defense working early cottages is going to put you behind in those areas. If the map is favorable to this (as this map was) it can be a strong opening, but in many cases (probably most cases) that slow down in development is going to cost you in the end.

Also I would point out something that wasn't mentioned much (if at all), which is that it's rather significant that flood plains were available in the capital's BFC. Being able to work a 3:food: cottaged tile causes much less of a development slowdown than if only grassland tiles were available for cottaging.

I'm not saying that this strategy doesn't work, but there is a tradeoff that players should be aware of before they try it.

2. IMO the real key to a successful CE is volume. You need to work a lot of cottages, and do so as soon as you can manage it. This normally means a high priority on Monarchy for me. Frequently it's the first "expensive" tech I research in a CE game (almost always unless I have a lot of early :) available). This start was screaming for a high priority on Monarchy since it provides no early :) boost, but does have lots of :health: available, and lots of high cottage city sites available (including the capital obviously).

Prioritizing tech trading friendly techs can have a good pay off, but how can you be assured of trading for Monarchy in a timely fashion? How many turns are you prepared to live with low pop cities waiting for an AI to make it available?

In regards to some of the second round goals I have a different take on a couple of them:

Grow our capital: The capital is the heart of a CE and we want to be able to work as much :commerce: as possible come Bureaucracy.
I won't disagree with what you're explicitly stating here. Maximizing your Bureaucratic capital is obviously a good idea. And it is going to be your best city during this timeframe (usually by far).

But in a broader sense it seems like you're suggesting that a CE capital needs to be a super science city that's going to drive your economy for much of the game. This isn't my experience. In a good CE you should have a few highly cottaged cities and possibly several other with some cottages. The percentage of your overall science coming from your capital should be going down as the game progresses.

To accomplish that you can't just focus on developing your capital but need to think about the overall economy. Found your other high cottage cities as early as possible. Use HR to grow their populations ASAP so more cottages can be worked. Have enough workers to keep up with growing population (especially important for jungle cities).

This is the time of the game to lay the foundation for a strong mid-late game CE, and that means more than just the capital.


The Great Library: Nowhere near as important or strong as under an SE its still a very nice to have since it will provide us at least 1 Great Scientist and more if we work it. It does not have to be built in our capital if we have another likely site.

I actually think GL is more valuable to a CE than an SE. Sure you get more :science:/turn out of the free scientists when you're running Rep., but the real value of GL to a CE is in the extra scientist-flavored GPPs. A CE wants GSs for bulbing and academies, but they're hard to get with only 6 scientist GPPs per city.

Build GL in the city you've identified as your NE city. Follow up GL with NE. Run only the two library scientists along with the two free scientists. Avoid building other wonders and running other types of specialists for a while (even if you have the food). That gives 30 GPPs/turn, with a 93% chance of getting a GS. With reasonable luck you should be able to get a few GSs out of that city in a short time. Eventually you'll want to add other specialists and then just take your chances with what type of GP you get, but even then the GPPs from GL greatly increases the chances of getting more GSs.

The GL should not be built in your Bureaucratic capital however. You want to maximize the benefit of GL by building NE in that city and then running other scientists (and eventually other specialists). Your capital needs to work max cottages to benefit from Bureau, so you won't run specialists there for most of the game. Even after Bureau you won't want to ever build farms there to support more specialists so you're not going to get the max benefit from NE.


Finally, one rather significant omission from the round 2 goals: Found and start developing your HE city.

The HE city is rather important in a CE since you're not going to want to whip military in your developed cities. A strong HE city can take care of the bulk of your military needs, freeing up the lower :hammers: cities to concentrate on infrastructure builds.

In fact I consider a strong HE city so important that I'm usually thinking about where it's going to go when I'm creating my first dotmaps.

I think Validator brings up some good points. Im not a CE expert, but its all I ever run. Every SE game I try ends up transitioning into a CE. In fact, transition economy's tend to be some of my best games. CE's are really tough to get up and rollin' early. You build settlers/workers early combined with whipping, its hard to justify working a 2 food tile even if it has 3-4 commerce when you could work a resource, farm or mine.

Pottery early makes more sense in this game than most because of FP's in captial. Usually I wont tech pottery until I get all the worker techs and am heading for writing. I went AH>Mining>Wheel>Pottery in this game. Worker improved the corn, a mine, then built cottage. I did this mainly because Im trusting feralminded to guide me through my first emperor game lol. I think it can pay off.

A strong Bureaucracy capital can be important in both SE and CE. Although its not necessary in either. Honestly in this game the capital is too hammer poor for my taste. Maybe workshops can fix this(love me some Caste System workshops) but the danger of building an overpowering Buro cap is that you generally want to get into FS rather than Buro in a CE. I hate games where I find myself torn between FS and Buro. Though usually when this happens its because of the hammer bonus of Buro rather than the commerce bonus and Im hammering out late game wonders in my Cap. May not be a problem here.

Great Library. This is a weakness for me. A lot of times I end up putting it in my capital and then never running any other scientists. Bad move, but I fear losing it if I dont because often times my GP farm just cant get it built in time. I justify this by telling myself 'at least I denied it from the AI'. This game Im putting it in the marble, fish, pig, copper site to the NE if I can manage it and forcing it to be my GP farm weather it likes it or not.

HE city. Another weakness for me. Obviously a strong hammer city. I lean more towards the builder in me than the fighter. Ends up building infa/wonders more than units. I mean hell if I can build Hollywood in 8 turns or 4 infantry I almost always chose the wonder lol. My cities tend to be more hybrid. Barracks/stable most everywhere, science and gold multipliers almost everywhere. Switch between units everywhere or infra everywhere.

I dunno, maybe Im just a newbie and shouldnt be playing this. Probably a bit above my head. Never even tried Monarch yet. Im going to play it out though and looking forward to other people's games.

I'll give a brief recap of my experience, up to 430 AD. (Got a bit carried away) First off, I had to reload a couple of times, as the barbs were brutal. BTW they will definitely enter your borders once it hits 1700 BC.

I didn't keep a detailed log, something I will do in the future. Like everyone else, I soon realized we had tons of room, especially if I could block off Willem. I planned out my cities like so, (not including the 2 to seal the penninsula.)
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

The barbs of course had other plans, and I had to raze 3 of their cities, which ended up being handy for the money and a couple of workers. (man did I ever need workers, I usually never expand this much peacefully)
I built the heroic epic to the SE of the capital, one west of the copper. ( I originally planned to put that city where feral did, but after the barbs owned me I decided I wanted it in the inner ring.) I also was able to get the GL and NE built in the city with the flood plains and marble SW of the capital. I only popped to GS, first I used for academy in capital, and the second has bulbed most of education, which you can't see in the screenshots. One thing of note, Elizabeth is teching like crazy. As you can see in my shots, I still have a couple more cities to place, lots of infrastructure to build up as well. Not sure if I'm going diplomacy, space, or domination yet. Here are some shots.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Heres the capital, I put a decent effort into working those cottages.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg
And the tech situation.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z182/ajil112/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

@Validator
With all due respect, 8 cottages being worked in 400 AD is not much of a CE. :sad: Your tech progress to this point is impressive, but I'm thinking it's not due to an efficient CE, but more likely due to keeping costs low with a small empire and military, and major tech trading skill.
I freely admit I am not the strongest CE player. All but one of my immortal wins are under SEs and my closest Deity victory was with an SE. That said I do feel comfortable cleaning out a CE on Emperor but again ... I know its not my strongest playstyle. That said in this game I did pull a ~800AD lib which I don't think anyone can consider "weak". How I got there was indeed a lot of tech trading but also pulling several Great Scientists out of my capital along the way.



1. There seemed to be an emphasis on an early Pottery opening, and I think this could lead to some misunderstanding that this is an essential part of a CE (which it isn't IMO).

This strategy certainly leads to a fast early tech rate, but it does so at a significant cost: slowing early development. It trades :food:/:hammers: for :commerce:, and since you need :food:/:hammers: for things like workers, settlers and barb defense working early cottages is going to put you behind in those areas. If the map is favorable to this (as this map was) it can be a strong opening, but in many cases (probably most cases) that slow down in development is going to cost you in the end.

Also I would point out something that wasn't mentioned much (if at all), which is that it's rather significant that flood plains were available in the capital's BFC. Being able to work a 3:food: cottaged tile causes much less of a development slowdown than if only grassland tiles were available for cottaging.

Not to sound too defensive but I did say almost exactly what you said above:

I decided since the land was so good to go for the Pottery gambit. Honestly I am not sold on this being a solid strategy and doubt it works on Immortal but I've done it a couple of times now on Emperor so I decided to give it a shot. The idea is shoot wheel->pottery first before going mining->BW. This means we won't be able to find copper until the mid 2000s and can slow an initial expansion if we have super close AI's. Still as long as we are aware of these facts and account for them ... with good land ... its a hell of an opening for a CE. We just will have to dance with some barbs for a couple hundred years is all.

Now I probably could have gone into greater detail and its absolutely a fact I only did this because of the Flood Plains ... which is something I glossed over with my handwaving about "good land".


2. IMO the real key to a successful CE is volume. You need to work a lot of cottages, and do so as soon as you can manage it. This normally means a high priority on Monarchy for me. Frequently it's the first "expensive" tech I research in a CE game (almost always unless I have a lot of early :) available). This start was screaming for a high priority on Monarchy since it provides no early :) boost, but does have lots of :health: available, and lots of high cottage city sites available (including the capital obviously).

Prioritizing tech trading friendly techs can have a good pay off, but how can you be assured of trading for Monarchy in a timely fashion? How many turns are you prepared to live with low pop cities waiting for an AI to make it available?


I guess I am very comfortable tech trading and as a result never worry about what I'm going to get. Honestly even if I had prioritized Monarchy earlier I don't think I could have garrisoned up my capital much quicker without hurting the initial expansion. Ultimately with this quality of land my focus was on horizontal expansion as opposed to vertical expansion. I got Monarchy in 305BC this game ... I could have probably teched it myself maybe 30 turns earlier and certainly would have teched it myself within 30 turns if no one had it to trade but the AI always prioritizes it so there's rarely a need to tech it myself unless I'm pushing for a 1000BC HR ... which I only consider useful with less expandable land. I have played CEs where I get Bureaucracy up and running ultra early but I only do this when I am isolated or stuck with really poor land. In this case we are neither. The other thing is I whipped the hell out of my capital this game early to produce settlers and workers and whatnot which I would not have been doing if I was HR and trying to grow consistently. Its all a trade off. Grow up or out, hard to do both this early.



I won't disagree with what you're explicitly stating here. Maximizing your Bureaucratic capital is obviously a good idea. And it is going to be your best city during this timeframe (usually by far).

But in a broader sense it seems like you're suggesting that a CE capital needs to be a super science city that's going to drive your economy for much of the game. This isn't my experience. In a good CE you should have a few highly cottaged cities and possibly several other with some cottages. The percentage of your overall science coming from your capital should be going down as the game progresses.

What do you do with your capital in the end game? Do you pave it over with workshops? I think in many starts your CE capital will be a super science city until the day you win or lose. Not all starts, a brown capital does happen now and then, but in most green starts it only makes sense. Of course its percentage contribution goes down as time goes by but in green starts it is always guaranteed to have an academy + Oxford, and with a good start like this will more than likely have the most cottages and the most mature cottages. No other city can compare pre-emancipation. It's intuitively obvious that this capital on this map WILL be the best science city for the majority of the game even post Bureaucracy. I'm not trying to misdirect anyone, this is a fact. It cannot support our economy long term but it IS our economy for right now.


To accomplish that you can't just focus on developing your capital but need to think about the overall economy. Found your other high cottage cities as early as possible. Use HR to grow their populations ASAP so more cottages can be worked. Have enough workers to keep up with growing population (especially important for jungle cities).

This is the time of the game to lay the foundation for a strong mid-late game CE, and that means more than just the capital.


This is very important but not for THIS map in THIS timeframe. Perhaps if instead of the horses/marble city I had settled the FP city due south then this would be a relevant point but the simple fact is the jungle cities are too many worker turns away for HR to matter to them by 400AD. I mean in a way we ARE laying the foundation by cutting down those jungles and laying down cottages and whatnot but its still a long ways off. Now I won't deny that FP city due south should probably be developed sooner than I get around to it but again ... cutting off the AI was a bigger priority. Setting up the NE city was a bigger priority. The only thing I did that was questionable was setup shop on the horses/marble instead of that FP city and I did this mostly to get another strong production city down ... its debatable that this was useful compared to getting that FP city setup. I could see it either way really.

That said this period IS the weakest part of my CE. I get to Lib early enough and usually win with that and I'm sure that's good enough for Emperor but looking for Immortal/Deity I think you are on the right track here. I tend to focus too much on the liberalism race (because for emperor its more or less all that matters). In retrospect I didn't need that 2nd production city as TMIT already pointed out a clever diplomat could defend this entire game with virtually no army. Diplomacy though is my weakest trait. Yeah getting the 2nd FP city up, and getting it up early, would probably have pushed my tech rate over the edge and would likely start to pay off around 500-600AD.


I actually think GL is more valuable to a CE than an SE. Sure you get more :science:/turn out of the free scientists when you're running Rep., but the real value of GL to a CE is in the extra scientist-flavored GPPs. A CE wants GSs for bulbing and academies, but they're hard to get with only 6 scientist GPPs per city.

Build GL in the city you've identified as your NE city. Follow up GL with NE. Run only the two library scientists along with the two free scientists. Avoid building other wonders and running other types of specialists for a while (even if you have the food). That gives 30 GPPs/turn, with a 93% chance of getting a GS. With reasonable luck you should be able to get a few GSs out of that city in a short time. Eventually you'll want to add other specialists and then just take your chances with what type of GP you get, but even then the GPPs from GL greatly increases the chances of getting more GSs.

The GL should not be built in your Bureaucratic capital however. You want to maximize the benefit of GL by building NE in that city and then running other scientists (and eventually other specialists). Your capital needs to work max cottages to benefit from Bureau, so you won't run specialists there for most of the game. Even after Bureau you won't want to ever build farms there to support more specialists so you're not going to get the max benefit from NE.

Actually this is one I disagree with. I have finished this game already and it was a boon NOT to have the GL in my NE city because by the time the NE city comes online the age of GSs is usually over. Getting it out in your capital lets you focus on pure GS production (I got out 3 pre-liberalism) and get them done in time to matter. Then late game all I want is GEs and GMs anyhow so having the GS points polluting my NE city kind of sucks. Honestly the only wonder I want in my NE is the NE itself ... although late game I usually find myself turning the NE city into the Stock Market city which also works out fairly well.

That said its not a huge deal to me either way. Late game GS's make nice academies when they do come so its not a huge deal to me if I get them. I honestly considered building it in my NE city and threw out the idea when I thought about how the GS's would land. I wanted to maximize my bulbing effort so I opted for short term GS production from the capital.



Finally, one rather significant omission from the round 2 goals: Found and start developing your HE city.

The HE city is rather important in a CE since you're not going to want to whip military in your developed cities. A strong HE city can take care of the bulk of your military needs, freeing up the lower :hammers: cities to concentrate on infrastructure builds.

In fact I consider a strong HE city so important that I'm usually thinking about where it's going to go when I'm creating my first dotmaps.

I too consider the HE hugely important ... in fact its key in my SE strategy ... but without luck with the barbs or an early war many people won't have a 10xp unit at this point. I agree the HE should be on the list though ... but I know in my game (went space just for illustration purposes) I didn't actually build it until the 1500s when I pulled the GG from Facism. I don't want people confused or upset because they didn't get out an HE when the truth is ... at least on this map ... you don't necessarily need it.

The only thing I did that was questionable was setup shop on the horses/marble instead of that FP city and I did this mostly to get another strong production city down ... its debatable that this was useful compared to getting that FP city setup. I could see it either way really.


I don't see that as questionable at all, rather a downright necessity. Getting those ponies in my opinion is absolutely critical given this Civ's UU and the neighbors you're dealing with. To be honest I would have settled this city second or third and likely not blocked willem as effectively as you have.

I've made it to 415AD (I overshot a bit), but I don't think I'm doing as well as Feral. I'm way behind two of the AIs in tech still :( and my power score is abysmal (despite two cities building units most of the time).


This is my second try through this era; the first time I teched for CoL, but the game didn't really work out too well - I think I traded away too many techs to Willem and he got waaay ahead. This time I followed Validator's advice and went for Monarchy, then I went for Literature for GL. Things seem to be going better - I traded less with Willem, so the tech gap is smaller. I'm happier with my economy (just) as I'm working something like 14 cottages. Note: I don't mean to imply that I think Validator's approach is better than Feral's (or vice versa), I just think a) it suited my playstyle a bit better, and b) playing for the second time helped a lot in making fewer mistakes.

Progress wise, I have the HE, I'm 8 turns from GL, I have 1 1/4 cottage cities, one GPP city and one military city set up, with the 2 jungle cities nearing the point where I want to start putting down cottages. I've had only 1 GS which built an academy in the capital.

Can anyone suggest what I can do to catch up in technology? Or what I've been doing wrong/could do better?

Capital:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204567&stc=1&d=1235151955

GPP:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204568&stc=1&d=1235151955

Border area: Navajo and Circassian were both barb cities that I took.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204569&stc=1&d=1235151955

Techs:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204570&stc=1&d=1235151955

Thalur its really hard to tell without a play by play but that's a fairly late CoL ... you really want to under most circumstances be looking to get it by 0-200AD. Also thats a fairly late GLib ... I would not be surprised if someone doesn't steal it from you. I'd say overall your biggest issue right now is you are very short on workers ... and this might actually be your problem. I know it seems like its not a big deal but the sooner you can develop your land the sooner your cities evolve ... its really a silent accelerator of everything else. Also you will want to be looking to get Calendar soon because HR alone does not solve your problems. Getting that silk will help, not to mention those bananas and the ability to trade for some other resources.

Yeah if I had to put my finger on anything it would be workers. Also tech trading is very tricky. I don't know if you looked at my play by play but I negotiated some VERY shrewd trades in my game. Basically I brokered around techs every chance I got. I also traded with the more stingy AI's first and denied Willem every chance I could get.

400 AD


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6057/northmap400ad0000fh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/northmap400ad0000fh0.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img22/northmap400ad0000fh0.jpg/1/)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5715/southmap400ad0000ye0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/southmap400ad0000ye0.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img16/southmap400ad0000ye0.jpg/1/)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8850/400adtechs0000wr7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/400adtechs0000wr7.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img16/400adtechs0000wr7.jpg/1/)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/589/400adglance0000as8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/400adglance0000as8.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img207/400adglance0000as8.jpg/1/)

Looks like I'm a bit behind the curve. However, GL is finishing next turn and in the next 15 turns I'll be in Beuracracy and have Calendar. Once those bananas come on line Susa and Phonecia will be working lots of riverside cottages. Obviously short on workers.

Power level is low, but both Montie and Shaka hate Willie so hopefully that will keep me from getting munched.

In the next segment will get the GS's for the Liberalism race. Found 2 or 3 more cities and get out a bunch more workers to get cities up and running faster.

@feralminded: thanks for the tips, that's exactly the sort of thing I was after from thee threads. I'll have a look through your play-by-plays when I get home on Monday, and see if I can go through and improve. I've definately been feeling behind tech wise compared to my normal games (on prince), so hopefully more workers will help. I normally get about 1 per city on average, and I don't whip or chop as much as I think I could.
As for trading, I never seem to be able to get food deals from the AIs - I always feel like I've helped them more than me. Definately room for improvement, I think.
Sorry for any typos, writing this on my iPhone isn't the easiest thing.

Heya again, I'm back with the series after pretty much giving up on that last one. CE time though now, back to my strengths :D

I've played through to 1000BC... got the blocker city down like feral but I saved that one till quite late, so I've yet to see a border pop or even finish the monument there yet. Going by ferals report I think I'm about 4/5 turns behind him in tech (I believe you comment on hitting alphabet on 1125BC, I got it dead on 1000BC). I think I got by #2/3 cities down slightly quicker. Settled that bronze city with bronze in the first 8 tiles and that notably helps with the barbs, they're nothing to worry about now. I put my 3rd city down for the horses though in the NW, thats just building the pasture now with roads almost completly to hook it up. Seems stupid to have the Immortals and not use them, so they'll be my unit of choice for taking out the 2 barb cities that have popped up near me, and they'll probably form most of my pre-macemen mobile defence. Didn't want to go IW as then I'd be using Swords instead of Immortals, but I think I'll have to get my hand on it pretty quick anyway as the jungles need to be chopped at some point.

On a side note, I think I've got my workers perfect for this game, and generally I seem to be getting them right in most of my games at least up until the 1000BC point. I'm placing improvements down before I'm working un-improved tiles, but not making the easy mistake of overdoing it and having a size 5 capitals with 10 cottages around it! (easy once you've been told to build more workers and you do :P).

So far my games going well I think, but from here onwards I'll do a play-by-play and hopefully some advice can come my way when things start to fall apart. This next segment is probably a weakness of mine, as my economy almost always falls to a spectacularly low position and I spend 2/3rds of the game trying to recover it! I'm usually trying to recue the economy whilst getting an army online which hurts from the unit costs... and if i hold off the army a bit ofc a warmonger will be on my door :(

I freely admit I am not the strongest CE player. All but one of my immortal wins are under SEs and my closest Deity victory was with an SE. That said I do feel comfortable cleaning out a CE on Emperor but again ... I know its not my strongest playstyle. That said in this game I did pull a ~800AD lib which I don't think anyone can consider "weak". How I got there was indeed a lot of tech trading but also pulling several Great Scientists out of my capital along the way.

I don't think we need to keep "spoilering" a discussion of the state of your economy (not sure why I did it in the first place). I guess I was reacting to the fact that you put "Tutorial" and "Essential CE" in the title of your thread. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone reading that would think that the thread would contain an example of a first rate CE. And I don't think I'm going out on a limb to state that your economy falls short of that (at this point in the game at least).

Your tech progress to this point has been impressive, but I think your masterful tech trading is the primary reason, and that wasn't the point of the thread.

Now if you had titled your thread something like "Emperor Tutorial Series - Keeping up with the AI via Tech Trading while running a Weak CE" I wouldn't have said anything. ;)

Seriously I wasn't trying to offend, but the tech trading issue is a bit of a concern for me in demonstration type games like these. It's really easy for good tech traders to use superior trading to mask a weak economy. Then lesser players who read the thread try to copy the play of the "expert" and wonder what they're doing wrong with their economy when their tech rate doesn't keep up.


Not to sound too defensive but I did say almost exactly what you said above:

I decided since the land was so good to go for the Pottery gambit. Honestly I am not sold on this being a solid strategy and doubt it works on Immortal but I've done it a couple of times now on Emperor so I decided to give it a shot. The idea is shoot wheel->pottery first before going mining->BW. This means we won't be able to find copper until the mid 2000s and can slow an initial expansion if we have super close AI's. Still as long as we are aware of these facts and account for them ... with good land ... its a hell of an opening for a CE. We just will have to dance with some barbs for a couple hundred years is all.

Now I probably could have gone into greater detail and its absolutely a fact I only did this because of the Flood Plains ... which is something I glossed over with my handwaving about "good land".

Sorry about that. By the time I had read through a few first round reports and saw how frequently the Pottery opening was used I had forgotten about your disclaimer. :blush:

I don't think it hurts to reiterate the trade-offs involved here and the need for FPs should have been mentioned. Also I wanted to point out that this opening isn't really limited to a CE. Any type of economy can use it.

I guess I am very comfortable tech trading and as a result never worry about what I'm going to get. Honestly even if I had prioritized Monarchy earlier I don't think I could have garrisoned up my capital much quicker without hurting the initial expansion. Ultimately with this quality of land my focus was on horizontal expansion as opposed to vertical expansion. I got Monarchy in 305BC this game ... I could have probably teched it myself maybe 30 turns earlier and certainly would have teched it myself within 30 turns if no one had it to trade but the AI always prioritizes it so there's rarely a need to tech it myself unless I'm pushing for a 1000BC HR ... which I only consider useful with less expandable land. I have played CEs where I get Bureaucracy up and running ultra early but I only do this when I am isolated or stuck with really poor land. In this case we are neither.

Well I suppose a good tech trader could decide that they have a good chance of trading for a needed tech like Monarchy based on the AIs who had been met and knowledge of their tech preferences and trading practices. But there is always a bit of luck involved since you can't 100% accurately predict the availability of techs.

And what would you have done if the situation was different? Say you were on a continent with only 2 civs, or even 3?

The other thing is I whipped the hell out of my capital this game early to produce settlers and workers and whatnot which I would not have been doing if I was HR and trying to grow consistently. Its all a trade off. Grow up or out, hard to do both this early.

You bring up one of the key elements to the game: balancing horizontal growth with vertical growth (and doing both while maintaining military strength and a decent tech rate). I don't really see that you have to chose between them however. In fact I don't see how you can focus entirely on horizontal growth while ignoring vertical growth.

As I see it, the city maintenance system was designed into Civ4 to prevent REXing, so how fast you can expand your empire now doesn't depend on how fast you can build settlers, but instead on how fast you can build your economy to support new cities. For me vertical growth is the key there.

When you're talking about a cottage spammable capital location, any additional pop you can get in the capital can be assigned to work more cottages. Those cottages support more cities. Ideally I'd like to have another cottaged spammable location settled early, so this city can also grow vertically and take part of the economic growth burden.

Not all cities are going to benefit from HR to the same extent at this point. The capital will get the biggest boost, but other cities can benefit too. And not all cities need to go through an unrestricted growth phase. Your Pasargadae for instance has 6 good tiles to work. Station a couple of units there for HR :) and grow a couple of pop. Then let it pump out settlers and workers. Other production cities can also produce the workers, settlers and military needed.

So the capital grows and works more cottages while other cities that don't need to grow produce the settlers/workers. Vertical and horizontal growth occur at the same time.

What do you do with your capital in the end game? Do you pave it over with workshops? I think in many starts your CE capital will be a super science city until the day you win or lose. Not all starts, a brown capital does happen now and then, but in most green starts it only makes sense. Of course its percentage contribution goes down as time goes by but in green starts it is always guaranteed to have an academy + Oxford, and with a good start like this will more than likely have the most cottages and the most mature cottages. No other city can compare pre-emancipation. It's intuitively obvious that this capital on this map WILL be the best science city for the majority of the game even post Bureaucracy. I'm not trying to misdirect anyone, this is a fact. It cannot support our economy long term but it IS our economy for right now.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the capital isn't important or that it shouldn't be developed ASAP. (In fact as I stated above I actually think it should be developed earlier than you.) And I readily agree it will be the biggest :science: provider at this point and in fact through the whole game if Oxford is built there (or else it was a real bad choice for Oxford).

What I was trying to get at is that with other cottaged cities the percentage of the empire's :science: coming from the capital should not be great by the late stages. I looked at some old saves from late game CEs that I've run and on average I was probably getting about 400 :science:/turn from my capital, but that was for a empire getting 3000 :science:/turn. So the capital only accounts for about 15%.

The point I was trying to make is that the sooner you get the other cottage cities developed the sooner they can start contributing and boost the empire's :science: output.

I have finished this game already and it was a boon NOT to have the GL in my NE city because by the time the NE city comes online the age of GSs is usually over. Getting it out in your capital lets you focus on pure GS production (I got out 3 pre-liberalism) and get them done in time to matter. Then late game all I want is GEs and GMs anyhow so having the GS points polluting my NE city kind of sucks.

Well just to be clear you could have accomplished the same thing building the GL in a city other than your capital (Pasargadae for example). Just don't build NE there. The only advantage that you had building it in the capital is that you got the 50% academy bonus applied to the free scientists. But that only amounts to 3 extra final :science:/turn (which shouldn't make a noticeable difference to overall tech rate). In exchange you had to run scientists in your Bureau capital, which just seems to be sub-optimal since they don't benefit in any way from Bureaucracy.

I'm not sure what you have against late game GSs. What do you use your GEs and GMs for? Personally I want as many GSs as possible since I can always use another academy somewhere. For late game I'm going to use GPs to trigger Golden Ages, and there the type of GP doesn't matter (just as long as they're different).

I don't think we need to keep "spoilering" a discussion of the state of your economy (not sure why I did it in the first place). I guess I was reacting to the fact that you put "Tutorial" and "Essential CE" in the title of your thread. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone reading that would think that the thread would contain an example of a first rate CE. And I don't think I'm going out on a limb to state that your economy falls short of that (at this point in the game at least).

Your tech progress to this point has been impressive, but I think your masterful tech trading is the primary reason, and that wasn't the point of the thread.

Now if you had titled your thread something like "Emperor Tutorial Series - Keeping up with the AI via Tech Trading while running a Weak CE" I wouldn't have said anything. ;)

Unfortunately I think you might be right to a certain extent. Actually I made a lot of mistakes in the SE version of this (the first one) that I kind of covered up through shrewd tech trading. As much as I suck at diplomacy for purposes of starting/preventing wars, I'm fairly adept at tech trading. This very game ...

320BC - Trade Aesthetics/Poly to Shaka for IW/Priesthood/Meditation.
305BC - Trade Aes/IW to Willem for monarchy.
290BC - Trade mansa Monarchy/Aes for CoL.

So I started with Aes/Poly. In two turns I turned that into IW/Priesthood/Meditation/Monarchy/CoL. I think that was a huge turning point for me. To be fair I do try and write down every trade ... I do miss some of the lesser ones (mid-late game I continuously trade old techs to backwards AIs for 100 :gold: a pop and I don't always write these down). I consider tech brokering a key part of any Emperor+ strategy but you are right in your assertion that the point here isn't tech brokering but solid economic advise.


I don't think it hurts to reiterate the trade-offs involved here and the need for FPs should have been mentioned. Also I wanted to point out that this opening isn't really limited to a CE. Any type of economy can use it. Very true. As it is even with this opening the gambit almost got me into more trouble than I could handle. I ended up delaying BW until post 3000BC and since I laid down my 2nd city poorly (pasagarde) I got into barb trouble. With an earlier BW I could have settled that city sooner and not worried ... or had I chosen the stronger spot for the city I also would have landed ok but both mistakes nearly cost me everything.


Well I suppose a good tech trader could decide that they have a good chance of trading for a needed tech like Monarchy based on the AIs who had been met and knowledge of their tech preferences and trading practices. But there is always a bit of luck involved since you can't 100% accurately predict the availability of techs.

And what would you have done if the situation was different? Say you were on a continent with only 2 civs, or even 3? Well while I agree my tech rate may have been heavily augmented by my trading the fact is winning emperor without tech trading I think is less instructive, specially for new players. While I agree with you brokering makes the game easier ... I think for a new player every advantage they can get will be helpful. So what if they take advantage of friendly trading AI's ... its what any good player WILL do. I feel like what you are advocating is I concoct a tutorial for an isolated start. While this could in fact be instructive and indeed would focus on a "pure" economy I don't think this is very helpful for a brand new (to the difficulty level) player. I think what's best for them is to learn every dirty trick to help them on their way while learning the ropes of the fundamental economy.


You bring up one of the key elements to the game: balancing horizontal growth with vertical growth (and doing both while maintaining military strength and a decent tech rate). I don't really see that you have to chose between them however. In fact I don't see how you can focus entirely on horizontal growth while ignoring vertical growth.

As I see it, the city maintenance system was designed into Civ4 to prevent REXing, so how fast you can expand your empire now doesn't depend on how fast you can build settlers, but instead on how fast you can build your economy to support new cities. For me vertical growth is the key there.

Indeed, it is a balance of both ... but there's no easy way to tell what is optimal without setting some kind of line in the sand. Of course with factors like tech trading and GP-bulbing involved it becomes far more difficult to tell. One of the upcoming tutorials will be a PHI-SE without building 'mids. I hope to illustrate a truly blazing early tech rate on the backs of GP bulbing combined with serious tech trading. Compared to either the CE I ran here or the SE I ran in the previous tutorial the Phi-SE will definitely crush them to Liberalism ... so if that's your line in the sand ... Phi wins. But the dirty secret of Phi is that it falls off the world after that so its either abuse your advantage immediately or fail.


When you're talking about a cottage spammable capital location, any additional pop you can get in the capital can be assigned to work more cottages. Those cottages support more cities. Ideally I'd like to have another cottaged spammable location settled early, so this city can also grow vertically and take part of the economic growth burden.

Yeah but at least on this map we had other considerations I considered more important. My #2 city was copper for obvious reasons. My #3 city was blocking. My #4 was horses. My #5 was the NE. My #6 was the 2nd blocking city. I didn't have a clear opportunity to settle the obvious 2nd cottage location (due south of capital) until #7. I think I actually didn't settle it until #8 or #9 in retrospect ... but #7 was as soon as it "felt" ok to settle it. So while it would have been ideal to settle it #3 or 4 or whatever ... I really don't think it was ideal for this map.


What I was trying to get at is that with other cottaged cities the percentage of the empire's :science: coming from the capital should not be great by the late stages. I looked at some old saves from late game CEs that I've run and on average I was probably getting about 400 :science:/turn from my capital, but that was for a empire getting 3000 :science:/turn. So the capital only accounts for about 15%.
Just looked at my final save. When I launch the ship in the mid 1800s my capital is pushing 691 :science: out of 3459 :science:. That's just about 20% ... and at this point I am working on future tech and have about 20 cities. So even super late game its still a good chunk of the total. I mean I agree ... it isn't everything and early growth of secondary cottage cities is important ... I just don't think it was THAT important on this map. Those jungle cities became my #2/#3 cottage cities behind the capital ... outstripping even the FP city. The thing I don't think you're acknowledging is that while I didn't have heavily developed cottages in those cities by 400AD ... they were working gems which is what I focused on developing. As soon as I had IW I had workers breaking out those gems and they are HUGE. Again I am not denying your point, I'm saying this game situations were a little sub-optimal and we had to roll with it.


Well just to be clear you could have accomplished the same thing building the GL in a city other than your capital (Pasargadae for example). Just don't build NE there. The only advantage that you had building it in the capital is that you got the 50% academy bonus applied to the free scientists. But that only amounts to 3 extra final :science:/turn (which shouldn't make a noticeable difference to overall tech rate). In exchange you had to run scientists in your Bureau capital, which just seems to be sub-optimal since they don't benefit in any way from Bureaucracy.

The scientists didn't much hurt me and they were the ONLY way I was getting GS's that early. I believe I started working scientists in the capital in 750BC. Nowhere else even had a library at that point. By putting the Glib down there I was then able to employ 4 scientists and really punch out the GS's which assisted me greatly in getting the early liberalism. Yeah its slightly sub-optimal in terms of Bureaucracy but I don't believe its sub-optimal in terms of overall tech rate. GS's are the real deal, specially that early. I built the GLib in 55AD and had an academy down in 100AD. While I am skeptical I could have built the GLib in any other city any faster its a simple fact if I had waited for whatever city the Glib was in to produce me a GS to produce an academy with it was going to be another 50 turns before I got the academy down in the capital. So while indeed not working those cottages to employ those scientists starting in 750BC definitely hurt my tech rate somewhat for that period (although not by much ... a fully developed town at that point is only 5 :commerce: while the scientist is 3 :science: I'm sure the extra :science: I got out of the early academy more than made up for it.) ... I have little doubt it more than made up for it by getting the academy down that much sooner. As it is in retrospect I could not have been religiously working those scientists if I started in 750 and got my first in 100AD. But still the point is once the GLib is down now I can employ 4 scientists and get additional GS's that much quicker for useful things like bulbing Philosophy/Education/Liberalism/Printing Press. Sure if I had done it in Pasagarde I could have turned that into a GS farm for a bit but then I lose my primary unit pump.

I mean I agree with you, it's sub-optimal ... and I can't make a strong case why NOT to put it in the NE city beyond in this game that would have delayed the GLib and subsequent GS's by a non-trivial amount of time. Sometimes its worth sacrificing long-term growth for short-term gains.

I'm not sure what you have against late game GSs. What do you use your GEs and GMs for? Personally I want as many GSs as possible since I can always use another academy somewhere. For late game I'm going to use GPs to trigger Golden Ages, and there the type of GP doesn't matter (just as long as they're different). I use the GMs to run my Wallstreet city and facilitate a 90-100% slider as well as sushi. The GE's I use for Mining Inc and to build oxford. Everything else I use for GAs when building ship parts. I mean you're right ... there's nothing wrong with laying down Academies in every major Cottage hub ... but I prefer to get my slider up to as close to 100% as possible to really push out the :science: of my already established super cities.


I guess I should make it clear I don't disagree with your points. Indeed the pottery-gambit is just that ... a gamble. It pays off with good land and a little luck but its not a solid strategy. I agree with you tech brokering can change things dramatically ... but I don't see that as a bad thing. I also agree with you when possible I am not a huge fan of GLib in the capital of a CE ... just we don't always have another reasonable option. Also when Bureaucracy hits ... ideally ... we will be working every last cottage possible ... but sometimes you need a GS more than that extra :commerce: ... I mean in truth that early the conversion ratio of :gp: / :science: is still extremely compelling so its worth thinking about. I can't deny these things but the game isn't static and when you have opportunities you go for it. I feel I played a fairly solid game outside of the first 75 turns and if anything I felt like I wasn't expanding horizontally quite fast enough. I felt like I didn't take strong advantage of the ORG trait and those cheap courthouses. I'm tempted to do a tutorial on power-rexxing and play Shaka and see about getting 10 cities up by 0AD. I'm not sure if this game I had 5 or 6 ... but that's a fairly low number for an ORG leader. Perhaps it was the right choice, tanking our economy for the hell of it isn't necessarily the best course of action ... but its all one big trade off. I know I'm not good enough to see all of them or take advantage of all of them which is partly why I tried to stick to what I knew here.

Through to 970AD and i'm doing pretty well for my first shot at emperor, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

First of all I have to say that darius' economy rocks! I'm in a great position with lib in the bag and gunning to take steel as my free tech. Basically I have rexed and taken full advantage of the marble I built the GL in the capital which acted as a temporary GP farm giving me a few scientists to get me to lib. I was building the Parth, hoping to get gold from failing but ended up getting that too. I tried to rex hard but darius' rocking traits meant the slider didnt drop below 40%, then once COL and cheap courthouses came in I shot out of the gates, nabbing MoM (my favourite new wonder) despite being third to calendar by at least 10 turns and the free GA from music! I used the GA to launch a GA in which i switched to caste and bureau (a bit counterintuitive since my capital was then my GP farm but nevertheless effective) then to vassalage as i gear up to take on willem. I have been helped out a lot by the AI's as the backwards warlike vassals have been distracting the strong techers, Mansa vassaled to Shaka (as well as Stalin) and monty is softening up willem for me as well as distracting Peri and Vicky. Nevertheless I'm extremely pleased with the progress so far and am preparing to take down Willy before nabbing steel from lib, then getting grens, rifles and cavs and sweeping the continent. Please look at the save and give me feedback about what you think of my game (city placement, specialisation, diplo etc.) I really want to take this chance to improve my game and I'm stoked to be doing this well on Emperor!!

Both Validator and Feral are being civil and courteous but its obvious Validator doesnt agree with some of things Feral did to showcase a CE. My question to Validator is: why dont you take the 4000BC save and show us what you would do?

So what if you know the map and rival civs. This is a tutorial right. It can only lead to more optimal play, which I dont think is a bad thing. I just wanna learn, its not a "how to beat emperor thread". I think it would help me and other players in the Prince-Monarch range.

Both Validator and Feral are being civil and courteous but its obvious Validator doesnt agree with some of things Feral did to showcase a CE. My question to Validator is: why dont you take the 4000BC save and show us what you would do?

So what if you know the map and rival civs. This is a tutorial right. It can only lead to more optimal play, which I dont think is a bad thing. I just wanna learn, its not a "how to beat emperor thread". I think it would help me and other players in the Prince-Monarch range.

Actually I think we agree on many things but his points are well taken in that my path through this game was not textbook optimal and as a tutorial that was probably the path I *should* have taken even if it resulted in a weaker game overall. Perhaps my path was more effective but his point is trying to emulate the path I took on this map for this game on a less optimal map may in fact get people into trouble. In essence I think he's right but I'm not sure I agree that taking the less optimal, but more formally correct path is necessarily more instructive. I think beating emperor is more than just the perfect economy and lessons like how to expand or win a war or bulb through liberalism or broker technology are useful to anyone trying to take on this difficulty level for the first time. Honestly I think his points are less Emperor specific and more for the Immortal/Deity levels of play where it takes more than a strong liberalism race to win ... but I could be wrong.

@dorkynorky

400 AD

Looks like I'm a bit behind the curve. However, GL is finishing next turn and in the next 15 turns I'll be in Beuracracy and have Calendar. Once those bananas come on line Susa and Phonecia will be working lots of riverside cottages. Obviously short on workers.

Power level is low, but both Montie and Shaka hate Willie so hopefully that will keep me from getting munched.

In the next segment will get the GS's for the Liberalism race. Found 2 or 3 more cities and get out a bunch more workers to get cities up and running faster.


You're not behind the curve at all. A 500AD CS is fairly strong in most games ... remember you still have a realistic shot at liberalism in most games at 1200AD. Its the absolute limit and some games it will disappear far earlier but just because you don't get it by 1000AD or don't pull Rifling from it doesn't mean anything. Your empire looks strong at this point and the diplomatic situation is very favorable. You can sneak under the radar for a while longer while you quietly build up a force to annihilate everyone. That said I would take out monty before willem. He will be much easier and then you will have no one at your back. If you can induce a war between shaka and willem before wiping monty off the map all the better. You'll get important GG's and experience and tons of gold from conquest to fuel your economy with.

1335 AD What next?



http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7749/civ4screenshot0003.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/civ4screenshot0003.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img3/civ4screenshot0003.jpg/1/)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7774/civ4screenshot0002.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/civ4screenshot0002.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img16/civ4screenshot0002.jpg/1/)

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8198/civ4screenshot0005.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/civ4screenshot0005.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img210/civ4screenshot0005.jpg/1/)

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4006/civ4screenshot0004.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/civ4screenshot0004.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img22/civ4screenshot0004.jpg/1/)

Pericles and Vicki are both targeting me. However with a bit of a military buildup and a switch to FR, FS they could decide otherwise before they get a land or sea route to carry out their plans. I guess they could be looking at Shaka/Monty as well, but I doubt it.

Shaka was less than 10 turns out of a war with Willie when he went looking again. So he's either targeting me or Vicki/Pericles. Again, not too much to worry about with a bit of a military buildup.

Future? Feral had said he was going for a peaceful space and I could use some work on that. However, I'm not sure whether his plans include a bit of conquest first, if so then I'll be going Nationhood, FR before end of GA and build a bunch of trebs while heading toward Steel. Should get enough of a military together to take over Holland and keep a large enough military presence to keep Shaka and Monty at bay while building ship.


Feral, you had said in an earlier post that you were going for a peaceful space victory, which I could use work on. You also said that at the end you had 20 cities. It seems like maybe you did some limited conquest, but I guess you could have really packed in the filler cities. Would you let me know which one? I've only really won space victories after some conquest which is probably how I'd continue here, but if you did it with our original lands (which were pretty good) then I'll give that a try and look forward to your next updates.

Thanks

For the overall series, I'd like to see at least one game where the blocking isn't so easy. In both games so far, we've had 2/3 of our borders to sea and fairly easy blocking off of our peninsula. But in 70% of games you might only get 1 side on water, with 3+ bordering civs coming from all sides. I'd like to know how best to get my land in those games as thats something I often struggle with.

I'll post my game up to 400AD soon, it takes a lot longer when your writing the play by play!

Well it looks like this game is moving along faster than the last one ... so I guess I might as well put up the next segment. Previously (1000BC->400AD) we were focused on expanding and improving our land while getting to Bureaucracy to really accelerate our research. This would set us up nicely for a powerful and early liberalism. Now for the next section

Immediate Game Goals (400AD->1400AD):

Continue to grow our capital: While we should already be looking at a very strong capital the fact is in this segment its unlikely we will move away from Bureaucracy until very late which means every :commerce: here matters. Most of the land should be improved already but don't fall behind.
Finish our Expansion: We have a huge parcel of land but with Org it should be a non-issue to fill it out. Don't settle poor positions but there's enough strong sites that we can get new cities online fast.
Liberalism: Getting a GS to bulb education is pretty huge here, though not strictly necessary. What you take from liberalism is up to you but if you are going for nationhood aim early. If you want more just keep an eye on the rivals.
Grow other cities: Without a strong focus on overall economy we are going to fall behind post 1000AD. A single city just isn't enough. We have several solid cottage sites ... they need to be built up like the capital was built up in the previous segment.
Post Liberalism: The post liberalism section is a bit sketchy. If you think liberalism will take you home then it won't much matter as your tech path is clear (get to rifles/cannons and win) but otherwise we will want to make a pit stop to democracy. We don't necessarily have to tech it ourselves but don't underestimate the strength of emancipation to help your new cities grow. Around emancipation is around the time that Free Speech starts to make a lot of sense as well. If we intend to win without a liberalism war then a heavy focus on broad growth is important. We will need more and better cottage cities than the AI ... which we have the land to do.
Oxford: This will be an important part of our tech race post-liberalism. 6 universities need to find homes before its unlocked. Don't break your back to put them in your best tech cities (though this is ideal) because sometimes those cities have horrendous :hammers: output. Its not a big concession to build a couple in high production cities.



Now my game, as I already alluded to I went for a peaceful victory. A warmonger approach would have been quicker and easier but it had been a while since I've launched a space ship and with this much land this game was a good candidate for this win. Ultimately to win via space your goal is to simply keep the enemies at bay with diplomacy and deterrence while you secure yourself 5 solid production cities. The liberalism path is different as well as you typically want to shoot for either physics or democracy depending on what you think you need. The physics line nets to a handful of nice Great People as well as economic growth through quick Corporation and/or State Property while the democracy line can net you solid horizontal growth through emancipation.

Here's my playthrough from 400AD->1400AD.

As I said before I decided to go for a peaceful space race because I felt it could be instructive to others. Now I am by no means a pro at space races but I felt with this kind of land it could be a no-brainer kind of win. This mean I went from a warlike liberalism to a peaceful one. My goal was Physics through the Astronomy line which is good for trading purposes without low-impact (compass/optics/astronomy all trade well and don't particularly help the AI). That said along the way I met our final two AI's in 920AD.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-920AD-Vicky.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-920AD-Perry.jpg

Great more technophiles. Still they are both behind Willem so I can't complain too much. From there I continue on my way. I get circumnavigation which was arguably useless, but fun none the less. I also find a pretty neat surprise due west of us. Now I kind of knew that was there from when I settled the small island in 890AD because you could see the shore but it turned out to be a huge help landing me stone which will help with the eventual Kremlin. I really do spit out settlers during the period because my economy is strong and I want to ensure a powerful tech rate for the space race.

As for liberalism I end up having to settle for scientific method because Mansa decided to get his race on. What hurt me most this time was having to tech out Philosophy AND Liberalism. With better GS management I probably could have gotten a scientist to do liberalism for me but I got sloppy. Looking at my Play by Play I had a GS born in 910AD and I had completed lib in 860. Instead of completing lib if I had gone directly to Compass after finishing education in 910 I would have been able to bulb the majority of liberalism and would have easily made it to physics. That's the kind of GP management that's important but I got really lazy this game. I also went insane somewhere I teched out Printing Press along the way before I used liberalism. With proper GS management and no PP insanity I might have been able to bulb something beyond physics like electricity or something crazy. Oh well. I had to push out liberalism in 1240AD with pressure from Mansa.

I expanded everywhere and have most of my land filled in. I got my NE city running strong and it has already pushed out a lucky GE for me who will build me mining Inc. I also got a GM from economics which I was tempted to save for sushi but decided I could get another one before then. The GSpy from communism built me a nice SY city. The GS from physics built me a nice academy.

Anyhow I made it to 1400AD in tact. I ended up getting down physics and Communism for the free great people (not sure this was all that useful in retrospect), trade for constitution and push for Corporation. Looks like democracy is getting deferred for a while as I don't need Emancipation for now.

Here's the state of the state.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-EasternOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-NorthernOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-MiddleOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-SouthernOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-WesternOverview.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1400AD-TechOverview.jpg




And here's the play by play

430AD - Finish paper, start on education. GS will finish most of education in 3 turns. If I could pry out Phi from Willem I could lib at like 600AD.
475AD - Bulb education, drop slider to 60%. 5 turns to education. Stop working scientists. Whip courthouse in Tarsus, NE is next. Gordium whips granary, starts on courthouse.
490AD - Finish spear in ectabana, start on settler.
505AD - Finish archer in Pasagarde, start on settler. Finish archer in Susa, start on worker.
520AD - Whip settler in Ectabana, start on archer.
535AD - Trade Shaka lit for 210 :gold:
550AD - Finish Education, start philosophy. Go 100% slider ... 6 turns.
565AD - Found Bactra on Fish/Copper/Cow/Gems site on western shore. Whip out settler in Pasagarde, start on Trireme.
580AD - Whip out Monastery in Bantu, start on Courthouse. Whip worker in Susa, start on university.
595AD - Found Sardis due south of Persepolis on Southern shore desert tile. 6 FPs, Cottage city heaven. Trade crap around for another 140 :gold: to fund my Phi-rush.
640AD - Finish Phi, start on Lib. Trireme born in pasagarde, start on archer. Axe born in Ectabana, start on worker.
685AD - NE finished in Tarsus, employ 2 scientist ... need to get some merchants and engineers working. Start on lighthouse.
700AD - Pasagarde finishes archer, starts on settler. Worker finishes in Ectabana, start on missionary.
715AD - Gordium whips out courthouse, starts on forge. Whip courthouse in Bantu, start on forge.
730AD - Ecbatana finishes missionary, starts on worker. Whip settler out of Pasagarde. Finish lighthouse, start forge in Tarsus.
745AD - Trade paper for construction + 70 :gold: from mansa. Set EPs against Monty ... going to run him over with Cuirassers.
850AD - Whip University in Susa, start on forge. Whip forge in bantu, start on library.
860AD - Lib ready, start on Compass. Going for peaceful Lib.
890AD - Found Ergili on little island.
900AD - University done in Persepolis, started on Market. Whip library in Bantu, start on university.
910AD - GS born in Persepolis, sending him to academy up Susa.
920AD - Meet Vicky and Pericles. Trade Pericles Philosophy/CoL for Drama/Machinery/gold. Trade with vicky for ivory. Start on Optics.
930AD - Pasagarde finishes Workboat, starts on 2nd (sending to new city).
940AD - Ecbatana finishes worker, starts on missionary.
950AD - Trade compass/drama/gold for Feudalism. Need to get to guilds.
970AD - Finish Optics, start on printing press.
990AD - Stalin Vassals to Shaka ... lovely.
1000AD - Trade mansa philosophy/optics for guilds.
1020AD - Caravel finds land due west of my island. Looks decent sized.
1030AD - Persepolis finishes market, starts on much needed Apothecary. Tarsus finishes university (3 down), starts on harbor.
1060AD - Monty DoWs on Willem.
1090AD - Finish PP, back to Astronomy. Going for a Sci-method lib.
1110AD - Whip out University in Bantu (4/6), start on Apothecary.
1150AD - GE born in Tarsus, saving him for something interesting.
1160AD - Prove the world is round. Preparing to settle that island to my west.
1200AD - Buddhist AP built.
1210AD - Start Universities in Pasagarde and Ecbatana just to get them out.
1230AD - Finish Astronomy, switch to liberalism as Mansa is threatening. Was hoping for physics but it isn't happening. Convert Galley to Galleon. Have settler and monk ready for new island.
1240AD - Lib lands, get Scientific method. Start on Physics. Revolt to FR, waiting on FS for a bit.
1250AD - Trade Education to Willem for Banking/Music/160 :gold:
1255AD - Trade Education/Banking to Pericles for 230 :gold: and Nationalism.
1260AD - Switch to Economics for a shot at GM. 5 turns. Whip out University in Pasagarde 5/6, last in Gordium whippable in 5-10 turns. Whip settler in tarsus, will resume on market so it can work more merchants (been on 2 for a while).
1265AD - Found Zohak on island. Another settler on the way. May settle little 1 tile island east as well just cause. Trade routes alone make those worth it.
1285AD - Shaka/Stalin DoWs on Mansa ... need them to really hit up Monty/Willem.
1295AD - Win Economics, revolt FM. Settle merchant in Tarsus. Both Sushi and Mining Inc are mine.
1305AD - Trade Willem Nationalism for Engineering/HBR/280 :gold:
1310AD - Trade Mansa Engineering for Theo/380 :gold:. Whip 6th University in Gordium. Unlocked Oxford.
1315AD - Found Jin-Jan, my last mainland city (may play with a sheep city though) 1S of the NW horses.
1320AD - Finish Observatory in Persepolis, start on Oxford. 25 turns.
1330AD - Working on banks in Tarsus/Susa/Bantu. Forbidden Palace in Ecbatana.
1345AD - BorazJan founded on lonely island due east. Should probably statue this city and make it into a trade super center.
1355AD - Finish Physics, start on Communism. Sending GS to build Academy in Bantu.
1365AD - Zulu are quickly annihilating Mansa. This is fine, maybe they'll pick on willem next ... we just need to stay out of his way.
1395AD - Finish Communism, start on Constitution.
1400AD - Built Scotland Yard in Ecbatana. Trade Vicky PP/Astronomy for Constitution/Gunpowder.

For the overall series, I'd like to see at least one game where the blocking isn't so easy. In both games so far, we've had 2/3 of our borders to sea and fairly easy blocking off of our peninsula. But in 70% of games you might only get 1 side on water, with 3+ bordering civs coming from all sides. I'd like to know how best to get my land in those games as thats something I often struggle with.

I'll post my game up to 400AD soon, it takes a lot longer when your writing the play by play!

Yeah fair enough. I am not sure what will be next but I'd like to focus more on the economies than game play at least for now. There's still TRE, EE, HE, Phi-Se, and maybe RE out there ... although I am dubious about how much of an economy any of those are besides Phi-SE. TRE is really not so much an economy as a Rexxing method and RE is ... well ... I'm not sure what it is. EE and HE's are not so much economies, at least not early game ... but are really ways to morph your economy mid-game. Also I'm not qualified to lead an emperor game for either of them so we'll see. As for non-economy based games I was thinking of a early warmonger game, a true Rexx game, and maybe an isolated start game. Perhaps a "surrounded" game is also not a bad idea.

Ok I'm done up to 400AD. Not much point posting my full play by play as it would take ages to post up and be boring to read!

1000BC as I said I was about the same point as feral, about 5 turns behind in tech with a stronger army as I settled with the bronze in my inner circle. At 1000BC I'm just starting to tech Aesthetics and have already decided Pasargadae will get the GLib with 2 food sources there. Later game it will likely turn into more of a hammers city, but it does the job up to liberalism. Does mean it can build the GLib at a reasonable speed!

Horse connects up at around 800BC and I get 4-5 Immortals built across various cities to go with the 3/4 axeman from pre-1000BC that I got from early copper. The axes are fogbusting nicely, and the immortals start to make easy work of barb cities. 550BC I take Harrapan, a barb city on the floodplains south of the capitol. I lose 2 immortals as it was settled on a hill, but nothing too damaging. As soon as borders pop my workers are there cottaging all over it. Then I move onto Goth with is next to my blocker city on willem, and take that at 410BC losing just 1 Immortal this time (a couple of upgrades and no hill gave me some help). During this time I completed Aesthetics and started work on Literature. Traded Aesthetics to Willem for IW and Masonry. I hold a monopoly on Alphabet so nobody should shoot off in tech too soon.

440BC and Mansa Musa is looking like the world enemy. Willem is shooting off on score and pretty decent for tech to. I trade him Alphabet for Maths as he's started teching alphabet, he'd be at it soon and I want Math to chop the GLib more effectivly (and it also screws with my bulbing further on). 335BC and Literature is teched, get Priesthood to go either Monarchy or CoL next. The GLib starts in Pasargae.

250BC and the big tech trading starts. Priesthood finishes for me, I trade IW + Aes for CoL with Musa. Next turn I trade CoL and Literature to Willem for Monarchy, Meditation and Archery. At the same time, Musa turns buddist and suddenly he's got a couple of friends. He joins Willem and Shaka under that religion, and I decide I'd better join the group too. This leaves Monty as the lone and world hated hindu. I was happy giving Mansa such a nice trade and that military tech as he's been beaten so badly he's fallen behind a fair way anyway. I start teching Civil Service.

185BC and I meet an english boat from victoria, she's hindu, and on the same turn I notice Stalin has turned hindu. One civ left to find, but seems we have a 2 religion game in this one. Warmongering will be hard as I'm bordering buddist friends, its a treck to find some hindu enemies! Eco-wise, I'm building courthouses in the more distant cities, and Archers nearer the cap to get the most outta HR.

5BC - The Great Libriary is mine :D in a few turns I'll be working 2 scientists on top of that for some good GP production.

160AD - Civil Service is done, into buracracy and a few turns later i decide to take Caste System on to as I've stopped all my whipping, and Pasar has the food to work 4 scientist ontop of the 2 from GLib! Tech starts on paper.

190AD - Mansa Musa becomes a vassal of Willem! No war there just willem is so far ahead of the rest of us in score, mansa is so low (at this point willems score was 900 and mine 600 before taking the vassal. Now he's up to 1100!). A GS pops in parsa and philosiphy is bulbed.

325AD - A map trade with Victoria shows me her island. She's sharing with Alex who has a fair amount of land. Paper completes and I start Education.

400AD - End of segment. I'll attach my save onto this. Compared to Feral at this point I'm a little further along the Liberalism path, with a GS coming in about 5 turns to mostly finish Education. I'm not gonna trade anything from CS on the Liberalism path, so hopefully I can get hold of as good a liberalism slingshot as possible. I think I'm a liitle weak in horizontal expansion but vertically I've got some nice cities inc a size 10 capitol working 9 cottages, and a size 8 FP city below it working pure cottages. I'm wondering if it would be better to get the acadamy down in my cap or bulb education with the GS. My target for the immediate short term needs to be settling cities. Its held off a bit as I can't grow my cities whilst making settlers!

I think things are going ok. Any pointers on where I could be doing a little better?

I'm done up to 1475AD... lost count of the turns lol!

My big problem atm is probably the Great People. I need merchant fast to get Sushi, similar for Mining Inc. Tech wise I'm running away with it, many techs ahead and I did manage to get Physics from Liberalism as nobody seemed interested in beelining Lib themselves.

My main worry is the military game. Mine is nothing short of pathetic. At the moment I've got a Shaka at pleased romping over everyone. Musa is completly wiped off the map, Stalin quite likes Shaka and can't decide if he wants to be his vassal or not. Willem is in big trouble with Shaka who's romping over him. I'm probably 25% of Shaka's power, so I need to keep him interested on other targets so he doesn't come for me! Trying to get some units together to go on the border but hammers are hard to come by in this game.

I think my lack of a proper HE city has hurt me. I didn't decide until very late to just make Pasaragae the GP Farm, and its only working 3 tiles at a time. Out of Caste System now and I can't work a single merchant there that I need! Will have to add some infra there so I can make some. Also a bit slow on the banks for a wall street, which will probably be the FP city south of the capitol, Harrapan in my game I think its called. Although it might just be best to throw it into the capitol along with Oxford, which just completed.

Starting on the Kremlin now as I try to hook up stone. Will certainly need that to try and produce some hammers in some cities!

Any advice?

@miked1991


I'm done up to 1475AD... lost count of the turns lol!

My big problem atm is probably the Great People. I need merchant fast to get Sushi, similar for Mining Inc. Tech wise I'm running away with it, many techs ahead and I did manage to get Physics from Liberalism as nobody seemed interested in beelining Lib themselves.

My main worry is the military game. Mine is nothing short of pathetic. At the moment I've got a Shaka at pleased romping over everyone. Musa is completly wiped off the map, Stalin quite likes Shaka and can't decide if he wants to be his vassal or not. Willem is in big trouble with Shaka who's romping over him. I'm probably 25% of Shaka's power, so I need to keep him interested on other targets so he doesn't come for me! Trying to get some units together to go on the border but hammers are hard to come by in this game.

I think my lack of a proper HE city has hurt me. I didn't decide until very late to just make Pasaragae the GP Farm, and its only working 3 tiles at a time. Out of Caste System now and I can't work a single merchant there that I need! Will have to add some infra there so I can make some. Also a bit slow on the banks for a wall street, which will probably be the FP city south of the capitol, Harrapan in my game I think its called. Although it might just be best to throw it into the capitol along with Oxford, which just completed.

Starting on the Kremlin now as I try to hook up stone. Will certainly need that to try and produce some hammers in some cities!

Any advice?

You probably don't want to stock market your capital since the idea of a stock market city is to work a ton of merchants, not cottages so much. I personally dropped the NE and SM in the same city and while a little less than ideal, this isn't horrible. I'd say if you only have 1 good food city besides the capital NE/SM it up. If you have 2 then split them up. But yeah just leave the capital to its cottages.

you shouldn't need many GS for a CE. one for academy in capital, one for bulbing of education, perhaps one for philosophy. it isn't hard to get 3GS without GL, i never feel that it is necessary to build since it has been pushed back in bts.

you shouldn't need many GS for a CE. one for academy in capital, one for bulbing of education, perhaps one for philosophy. it isn't hard to get 3GS without GL, i never feel that it is necessary to build since it has been pushed back in bts.

That and the opportunity cost is slower bureaucracy, which is oh-so-favorable to a commerce-based capitol.

I might still do it with marble if I were expanding like mad and aesthetics were to be the only tech I could reliably trade to multiple AIs after wheezing to it. At that point lit is a tech away and assuming marble, opens up some useful national wonders that aren't extra pricey too. In this game, darius' trait combo was absolutely overpowering for me and I never ran into financial trouble even with fairly quick expansion, so I just skipped it and went to power the cap further.

Well, my space race vic came in 1898, quite a few turns later than Feral's.

I had to waste some time defending from Pericles. What a deal, we met in mid 1300s and he was upset for my trading with Monty. He went WHEOOHRN then. Even though we got to pleased, he stayed the course and went to war with me in the mid 1600's for 10 turns and then took peace and we eventually ended up with a defense pact. Got to love it.

Also had to waste some time focusing on defense as Willie went WHEOOHRN and moved his stack over to my border. Over the last 300 years of the game he was there and went in and out of WHEOOHRN but never declared. At the game's end he had the greatest power rating but had stopped teching to go culture. He was about 50 turns from it at the end. I wish that he would have decided to get after Shaka/Monty/Stalin who had already declared on him twice before, but I guess that my power rating never got high enough to counter their combined rating enough to make a difference.

I got the GM for Sushis, but I couldn't get the GE until late after beelining Fusion. In the end my game was probably prolonged some because I happened to get a GS and GA so I went for the 4 corp Wall St and spent some time spreading corps that could have been spent on parts or perhaps speeding up my tech rate a bit.

I'll be looking forward to seeing how Feral got his space victory faster so I can become better at that.

1605 ad domination victory, score:174168. Not bad for a first shot at emperor! :lol:

Basically my game was quite simple, Rexed hard, got 9 cities, laid down some cottages, snagging the Glib and using the capital as a GP farm, once i got COL the techrate exploded, thank you financial and organized! Got to lib so early i decided to take steel. Once lib was in the bag i went after my mainthreat willy, laying the smackdown on him and beat him there by ten turns. Mansa teched well but then got sallowed whole by shaka who was my only other threat but WAY backwards. Beat him and his three vassals solely with cannons, grens (never did bother with rifles or cavs, got too distracted:mischief: ). Pulled a dirty trick to eliminate shaka's SOD: took a city, left it unprotected, let him move in as i lay in wait, then used cannons grens and knights to beat him down, took two turns to halve his power. I think I played the CE quite well, my capital and floodplains cities are great examples, although i cheated a little by running a hybrid to get to lib, using my capital as a GP farm. I still think it's bogus that the capital only had 1 resource!!! Anyway check out the save if you'd like, or think that i'm lying...

Question for feralminded (or anyone, really):

In the play-by-play, when trading old techs for cash, I noticed you were trading some Lib path techs. If I'm going for an ambitious bulb like you were, I tend to worry about doing that. So you were more or less certain that the people you were trading Phil or Paper to weren't going to run at Lib? Monarch player here, FWIW.

Excellent series, by the way.

Question for feralminded (or anyone, really):

In the play-by-play, when trading old techs for cash, I noticed you were trading some Lib path techs. If I'm going for an ambitious bulb like you were, I tend to worry about doing that. So you were more or less certain that the people you were trading Phil or Paper to weren't going to run at Lib? Monarch player here, FWIW.

Excellent series, by the way.

The only trade last game I regretted was the Paper trade to Mansa for construction in 745AD. That one cost me Physics and was a mistake. The rest I'm not too concerned about but it largely is based on the date of the trades. Hard to make a hard/fast rule about this but in this specific game Willem and Mansa were the only threats and just keeping them just far enough behind is good enough.

The only trade last game I regretted was the Paper trade to Mansa for construction in 745AD. That one cost me Physics and was a mistake. The rest I'm not too concerned about but it largely is based on the date of the trades. Hard to make a hard/fast rule about this but in this specific game Willem and Mansa were the only threats and just keeping them just far enough behind is good enough.

Makes sense. I've had two recent games that were similar to this one in a lot of ways - pangaea-esque fractal, nice chokepoints leading to lots of land to fill out peacefully and cottage up - and I went for Lib->Steel both times. I rarely traded tech for cash, and looking at your approach, I would have had my Cannons much sooner that way. Good to know.

920AD - Meet Vicky and Pericles. Trade Pericles Philosophy/CoL for Drama/Machinery/gold. Trade with vicky for ivory. Start on Optics.

How are you meeting other far-reaching civs without caravels (Optics)?

I met both of them with a Work Boat before 1000BC, before meeting Stalin!

I met both of them with a Work Boat before 1000BC, before meeting Stalin!

I should have open the save before I asked but I am just having a short break from my C# programming duties :rolleyes:

Yeah this was one of those "almost pangea" fractal maps.

Spoiler 1000BC

Any comments are welcomed.

4000BC
Lovely looking start.
I really liked PaulisKhan's advice in post #12 so I moved the scout east to see what was there. Low and behold it's two silks that would both be in BFC if settled 1E. No-brainer now! :)
By the way, I thought a new colour scheme was in order :)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204923&stc=1&d=1235483873

3750BC
Guess what happened to my scout this turn? This slowed my exploration for a while but it's to be expected when you start with a useless scout.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204930&stc=1&d=1235484140

3725BC
Finish Mining. Onto BW. I can already see some nice sites.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204924&stc=1&d=1235483873

3425BC
Finish worker and start building warrior.

3175BC
Finally I meet someone. It's the Dutch. I finish BW and go Slavery right away while my worker builds the mine. Going for The Wheel.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204925&stc=1&d=1235483873

Due to the appearance of Copper I decided my Military Pump would go on the grass hill 3SE of the capital. Unless I spot a good site up NE or something. I'm worried about wasting the river tiles, and the pig could support a lot of mines by itself.

3000BC
Meet Montezuma. He appears to come from north west. Worker starts building second mine. First warrior is finished and is ready to explore again! :)
Start working on second worker, hoping to slave rush him.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204927&stc=1&d=1235483956

3875BC
Finish The Wheel. Start on Pottery, so I can build granaries while I grow my cities in between building workers/settlers. I rush the worker on this turn, and next turn let the overflow go into settler for 1 turn.

2725BC
Met Shaka

2550BC
Pottery discovered. Now researching AH to see if I find horse. About to build next city and start on copper mine.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204931&stc=1&d=1235484331

2250BC
Got AH. Now getting Writing

2050BC
OMFG I need a city between those gems! :yumyum:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204933&stc=1&d=1235484678

1925BC
Writing done. Onto IW because I just discovered a cluter of 3 gems down SW.

1850BC
Whoa Shaka and Monty both ask for OB on the same turn. I accept.

1525BC
Met Mansa Musa down south. I build the awesome gem city this turn. I have three workers down there to get the mine online asap.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204928&stc=1&d=1235483956

1450BC
Finally I get IW. Time to beeline Monarchy now.

1300BC
And I'm thinking I might even try for the Oracle.

1000BC
Sending my fourth settler down to block off Willem and secure a huge mass of land to myself.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204929&stc=1&d=1235483956

I'm a bit behind but better late than never eh?

By the way, have people already gotten lazy with spoilers? I'm still going here lol.

Yeah sorry about the spoilers ... it seemed like most people had finished so I know I myself got lazy. Regardless your game looks to be pretty much perfectly on track ... that was basically the same approach I took only you took the better spot for copper.

Is the next segment nearly ready?

Yeah I just have to write it up. The final segment has no real financial direction since at that point it's entirely based on your own game but I'll write up what I did. I ended up with a late 1800's space victory but I know I got sloppy there in between 1400 and 1800. Overall it only reinforced how much I hate peaceful victories because they take so long ... or maybe its just because of the epic speed ... but its still a valid tactic so that's why I wanted to illustrate it.

Yeah I just have to write it up. The final segment has no real financial direction since at that point it's entirely based on your own game but I'll write up what I did. I ended up with a late 1800's space victory but I know I got sloppy there in between 1400 and 1800. Overall it only reinforced how much I hate peaceful victories because they take so long ... or maybe its just because of the epic speed ... but its still a valid tactic so that's why I wanted to illustrate it.

I really need to learn more about the military victories. I can get to a point similar to in this game although not quite so strong, but I have great difficultly getting all the units built to win domination or conquest. Of course thats not the case in this game, and this one will follow more the line my games usually follow.

Yeah fair enough. I am not sure what will be next but I'd like to focus more on the economies than game play at least for now. There's still TRE, EE, HE, Phi-Se, and maybe RE out there ... although I am dubious about how much of an economy any of those are besides Phi-SE. TRE is really not so much an economy as a Rexxing method and RE is ... well ... I'm not sure what it is. EE and HE's are not so much economies, at least not early game ... but are really ways to morph your economy mid-game. Also I'm not qualified to lead an emperor game for either of them so we'll see. As for non-economy based games I was thinking of a early warmonger game, a true Rexx game, and maybe an isolated start game. Perhaps a "surrounded" game is also not a bad idea.

EE comes into play as early as alphabet, same with HE, which builds wealth/research after the hammer multipliers. To paraphrase a top notch deity player on HE:

"It's not exactly cutting edge, but it's good for players who overbuild wonders, buildings, or even units, because the tradeoff for research is so obvious".

Commerce capitol, GP farm, mass workshop hammer cities is a pretty effective means of working HE, because the wealth you build can still be put through strong multipliers, and you can instantly produce a lot of units or important buildings.

EE is a bit different. Its returns are quite high but you won't get a lead very easily using it. Gwall and abusive expansion seem the order of the day with it, to spam courthouses and latter jails/IA/SB, where just having those buildings themselves is a high beaker return in terms of stolen tech. Military victories are obviously easier than culture/space with EE, diplo is about the same...maybe slightly harder than in standard games since steering the UN is trickier. A commerce capitol with bureaucracy and SY can make it pretty effective early on.

Edit: Never viewed TRE as a separate economy, but I guess in extremely favorable trade route situations it can take over as the dominant form of commerce income. That's not always easily attained, however.

I ended up scoring a diplomatic victory in 1872, 5 turns from winning via spaceship. Elizabeth built it, and shaka was huge with 2 vassals. Shaka voted for me bc we were friendly, and we were both so huge population wise that was all it took.

Alright here's the final segment of my game. It took longer than I wanted but I got sloppy at the end ... I REALLY don't like space victories but its nice to get to the later techs ... I find my military victories make half of the tech tree irrelevant. Regardless here's how things played out.



I prioritized getting my hands on my corporations first which meant teching Corpororation and then up the Replaceable Part like through Railroad. This kind of deferred me from Artillery which I could have started on a bit sooner than I did. Of course after Rocketry then you go down the refrigeration line to get superconductors and setup fast parts. Once both corps landed it was really a slaughter and I probably could have won a domination victory at my leisure. No real threats along the way although Pericles decided to DoW on me fairly late. That was easily handled by spamming battleships for a few turns and all I ended up losing was some seafood that I quickly replaced. Also about 7 turns from victory Willem pulled to within striking distance culturally but instead of invading him with my huge pile of tanks I just sent a pile of spies and perma-revolt his 3rd city which was sitting at 45k. Nothing too sexy about this win.

Anyhow here's a couple of snapshots.

Anyone ever seen desert rice before? What does it taste like?
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1864AD-DesertRice.jpg

Shortly after the magical desert rice we complete our ship.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1867AD-CompleteShip.jpg

7 turns from victory they radio in: "Houston we have a problem"
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1875AD-WillemClose.jpg

And here's the semi-non-violent solution
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1875AD-WillemSolution.jpg

And finally we arrive on distant planets
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1882AD-Win1.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd99/feralminded/CETutorSeries1/CE-1882AD-Win2.jpg




Here's the play by play

1405AD - GM born in Tarsus, settle him ... next one is 35 turns which will make me Sushi.
1415AD - Shaka takes another Mansa city, Mansa Capitulates to him. A bored shaka is a scary shaka. Rifling as soon as corp is done.
1420AD - Shaka demands I cancel my deals with mansa, his vassal?
1425AD - Corporation lands, switch to RP ... 4 turns. Sustaining an 80% slider now and about 900 :science:. Pasagarde starts on the Kremlin, my island will have stone hooked up sooner than later which will help.
1435AD - Finish Oxford in Persepolis ... just shy of 1000 :science: / turn now. Start on Bank. Won't be able to build Wall Street for a bit since I won't have 6 banks for maybe 20 turns.
1445AD - Finish RP, start on Rifling.
1465AD - Finish Rifling, start on chemistry. A couple of turns from having 6 banks.
1480AD - Finish Chemistry, start on Steam Power. Get Shaka and his minions to quit trading with Willem. Probably pisses willem off but what is he going to do about it?
1500AD - Tarsus starts on Wallstreet.
1510AD - Finish Steam, start on Steel. Everyone is now officially WFYABTA.
1535AD - Steel done, start on Railroad. Cannot wait for Mining Inc.
1555AD - Finish Kremlin in Pasagarde, start on DryDock.
1580AD - Finish Railroad, GM born ... saving for Sushi. Start Democracy. Found Mining Inc in Tarsus, that will help with Wall Street.
1595AD - Pericles gives me 640 :gold: and Military Science for Rifling. I must be falling behind on the tech lead.
1600AD - Finish Democracy, Revolt to US/FS/FM/FR/Emancipation.
1645AD - Finish Biology, start on Medicine. Wall Street is born, time to start cranking out mining inc execs.
1675AD - Finish Medicine, found Sushi. Start on Assembly Line.
1704AD - Finish Assembly Line, start on Facism. Spreading corporations like mad.
1710AD - Finish Facism, get my first GG who I will use to promote a unit so I can build HE and westpoint.
1720AD - Finish Electricity, go Refrigeration.
1732AD - Finish Refrigeration, start on superconductors. Corps almost completely spread, have most of the infrastructure complete.
1742AD - Trade Pericles Facism/biology for a bunch of gold and Combustion.
1750AD - Finish Superconductors, start on Artillery.
1758AD - Finish Artillery, start on Rocketry.
1764AD - GS born, saving for GA.
1767AD - Rocketry finishes, start on Radio.
1768AD - GM born, saving for GA.
1774AD - UN built, lovely. Me vs Pericles ... me by a landslide. Interesting.
1780AD - Finish Radio, start on industrialism. Need that aluminum.
1782AD - Switch to gold production for a couple of turns to rush the Eiffel tower.
1788AD - Found city between oil and sheep. Will found another on east coast since corps make them viable.
1790AD - Pass +1 Trade Routes resolution.
1792AD - Finish Eiffel Tower with about 4000 :gold:. Last wonder I'll build besides Apollo which is a few turns away.
1794AD - Found city due east of capital on east coast.
1796AD - Finish INdustrialism and find a bunch of aluminum. Start on Plastics. Pericles is pushing for a Culture victory but I don't think he will beat me.
1800AD - Apollo complete, 5 thrusters Queued up.
1806AD - Finish Plastics, start on Ecology.
1812AD - Trade pericles Industrialism for Fission. Probably my last tech trade.
1814AD - Vicky Capitulates to Pericles ... wasn't aware they were fighting. Everyone has a vassal but me. :(
1816AD - Finish Ecology, start on Satellites.
1818AD - 2/5 Thrusters done, Life support started. GM born, start first GA.
1822AD - 5/5 Thrusters done.
1824AD - Pericles/Vicky DoW on me ... they are probably going to take my little island which is relatively defenseless ... wont change anything. Mainland has about 20 tanks roaming around. Satellites finish, start on Composites. Start on Docking bay.
1828AD - Life support done.
1834AD - Finish Composites. Handled Pericles/Vicky with mass battleship spam. Queue up 5 casings. Start on Genetics.
1838AD - 1GA ends, start 2nd one. Make UN stop this war for me. Managed to get a GG out of it and only lost 1 Battleship.
1840AD - UN vote fails?!?! Oh well, only issue right now is their subs.
1841AD - Genetics done, start on computers. Start on stasis.
1842AD - Docking bay done.
1843AD - GE born, start Creative Constructions in Susa just for fun, will spread it to Shaka and friends.
1844AD - 1/5 casings done.
1845AD - 3/5 Casings done. Spreading CreatCon disease. Finish Computers, start on Fiber Optics. Won't miss the kremlin much.
1847AD - 5/5 casings done.
1848AD - They accept peace.
1849AD - GA ends, Finish Fiber optics, start on Fusion (final tech needed). Start on cockpit.
1852AD - Stasis done.
1854AD - Fusion done, both engines worked on.
1857AD - Finish Cockpit. 10 turns to launch.
1865AD - Global Warming turns a rice patty into a desert patty? Never seen rice grow in a desert.
1869AD - Launch!
1870AD - Going to be really close with Willem. Instead of plowing him under I decide to just spy attack his last city ... permanent revolution. He's been a nice guy this whole game and I don't want to show him just how bad our tech disparity is.
1875AD - I bet this is super annoying.
1877AD - I learn the Future will be better tomorrow.
1882AD - I make it to Alpha Centauri.

Feral I could be wrong here, but on Epic legendary culture is 75k I believe. So really Willem's Cap wasnt even close with 7 turns left.

hah ... well that might be true ... I obviously wouldn't know. I guess I was harrassing him for nothing.

My game from 1000BC to 1000AD. Skipped the 400AD checkpoint since most are past it.

Here's my empire at 1000BC.
North
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

South http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

After meeting Willem in ~1200BC I immediately set out to find where he is and do my best job of blocking.

Like so:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

Take out the barb city and settle one more to complete block.
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Was extremely close taking out that barb city. Willem actually killed 2 of the defenders and injured another the turn before I got there. Then he headed directly for the barb city just south of my capital. Again barely beat him there as he attacked first. But barbs are now gone. Sadly this left one of the gems unclaimed by any city.

Here is the diplo at this point:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

Maybe I should make some friends right?

And techs:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

I cant trade with Mansa because it will screw diplo with Willem and Shaka for worst ememy bs. Leaves me kinda stuck. Willem is my only AI border. He and Shaka are Buddhists. Going to join them when possible. Seems like the obvious move since Mansa founded Judaism, Monty founded Hinduism. Stalin is undecided.

Willem and Shaka DOW Mansa, Monty DOW on Willem. I join a fake war with Mansa at Willem's request. I kinda like this situation. Willem has Monty in SW to deal with and Mansa in the E. So Mansa and Monty have to come through Willem to get to me. I pretty much deny all requests from Mansa and Monty at this point and focus on keeping Willem and Shaka happy with me. Gotta say my diplomacy and tech trading are waaay under par for Emperor, but this map seemed to be pretty straight forward to me. Time will tell.

Decide to build the Parthenon after a monument in one of my Willem blocking cites for a few reasons.
1. Got Aestetics way before the AI and couldnt effectively trade it so I figure might as well try for its wonders.
2. Gold if I fail.
3. Culture for a blocking city.
4. Had marble.
5. Help my GP farm.
6. Deny to AI.
Thought this wonder was more than worth a try even in a CE. I end up getting it and later glad I did.

After blocking Willem I continue to spam settlers and workers everywhere I can to try and fill out land. At this point you cant even say Im running a CE, only working like 5-6 cottages in the Cap. I expanded too slowly and have only very small cities.

Lay down the GL and NE in my GP farm. City NE of Cap(fish pig marble copper city). Got my first GS in this city in 380BC for an early Academy. End up getting 4 GS and 1 GA before 900AD. GS went to: Academy, bulb Philo, bulb Education, bulb Lib. Pop a Great Artist the same turn Paper was done grrrrr. Usually would use a GA for an early Golden Age or save him for a later one but decide to settle this one in a Willem blocking city. The Great Artist pop at 5% odds is why Im glad I built the Parthenon. Popped out a GS 14 turns later to bulb the end of Education rather than the beginning.

Empire at 430AD:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Diplo:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

Techs:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

As you can see Ive met Pericles and Vicky. Both Hindu's along with Monty. Need to try and keep them as happy as possible. Considering this is my first try at Emperor coming straight from Prince, I think Im doing alright so far.

I start to focus more heavily on vertical growth and raising my happy cap. And perhaps even working some cottages lol. The 430AD pictures are just after a major civics change. Currently running HR, Buro, CS, DS, OR.

No problem getting Liberalism. Trying to decide what to take. Thought about trying for Physics but that meant SM. I had the GL and Parthenon powering my GP farm and did not want to obsolete them. Decided to delay SM for as long as possible and get Steel with Liberalism. Make a sidetract to Nationalism hoping for the Taj. Given the tech situation I think I can still tech/trade to chemistry before I take Lberalism.

Techs:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0013.jpg

Diplo:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0012.jpg

And some Empire pics:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

City Screen:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

Capital:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg

GP Farm:
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/Moggy133/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg

I think the only reason Im in this right now is probably my best GP farm Ive ever had and the wonders Ive nabbed. Economy is far behind what it should be at this point. I settled a bunch of cities in questionable spots to try and max out hammers and cottages in each city. Hopefully this pays off later.

Have no army as of now and no plans to build one. Monty and Mansa hate Willem and war on and off. They also hate me but need to get through Willem first. Shaka is really quiet this game even though him and Mansa are both Annoyed at each other, he never declares. With so much war going on the tech rate is slow. Shouldnt be a problem to nab Steel for Liberalism.

@Mogur


Your position isn't bad at all but I suspect you only have 30 turns more at max to get liberalism out. If you want Steel you need to get up that line ASAP because you can bet willem is currently beelining it. That said otherwise you look ok although with Willem and Shaka friendly I believe Shaka can DOW on you if you look too weak so you will want to be building yourself some units now. Its ok as you'll need them to support the cannons anyhow.

hah ... well that might be true ... I obviously wouldn't know. I guess I was harrassing him for nothing.

Yep. It's true. I'm a cultural victory hound. 50K for normal speed, 75K for epic and 150K for marathon.

Well I won my game fairly convincingly :D Space Race victory in 1902AD, this tutorial must have done some good as I don't win many on Monarch the skill level I usually play on!

Was worried about Shaka going on in the game as he took out Mansa and then was going at Willem. He didn't seem too tempted to kill off Willem, think he quite liked him, but Pericles with the AP kept putting on votes for wars against him and pretty much everyone was agreeing to them! Finally he took Willem as a vassal and quickly went on to vassalise Monty very quickly. All game long Stalin couldn't make his mind up if he wanted to be Shaka's vassal or not, but whatever case they were good friends.

Not sure why, but despite being conquered Willem and Monty both seemed to like Shaka quite well (they also both hated me). So come the UN votes, Shaka had votes from Willem, Monty and Stalin... considering he held 44% of the world pop by himself, that was a big slice of the votes. Was about 50 from winning the diplomatic victory each time the vote came up, and in the end I decided to bribe Shaka to war against Stalin so he'd lose Stalin's vote (this was about the time I launched my ship, no worry of a domination win or anything of such for Shaka, and giving a tech up was no worry to start it off).

I had to work quite hard to keep my military up to a reasonable amount. Once factories came along though I was able to build them with Coal Planets and Levies, and along with the towns giving hammers from US most of my cities were good enough to spam units for the border cities. In the 15 turns it took my ship to travel I built about 30 Modern Armours, so I could probably go on after my victory for easy domination.

Weaknesses - I never got a proper GP Farm down. Producing the specialists was a pain and so I never got Sids Sushi or Mining Inc built. In the end I took the Oil company and spammed it worldwide as everyone had oil anyway, that got some cash in. And Create Constructions I made with a late engineer but was too late to bother spreading. Along similar lines, I ended up with Wall Street in my capitol only running 2 Merchants. Needed a city more apt with the food etc to make it work better. My military was generally very poor and had I not had such a nice peninsula with just 2 cities to have to defend, I'm sure I would have been attacked if not dogpiled. Got lucky that Willem was my only neighbour and was hurting from Shaka (I believe Shaka was killing Mansa early but Willem took him as a vassal. Shaka continued to kill Musa and then was at war with Willem so carried on).

Yeah a future tutorial I think will be the "Pit fight to the death" tutorial where you have some nasty neighbors and how to effectively handle them. This was VERY favorable land ... which is fine for a tutorial because again there's more to the game than opening and the late game lessons are just as important as the early ones.

Do you mind explaining what some of these "economies" are? I remember reading earlier in the thread you talking about EE's, HE's and TRE's that I can remember. I know EE is espionarge, but the other two I've no idea. Presumably HE is Hybrid, but how a hybrid economy works I've no idea, I thought that was just a city that did everything.

On conditions. I'd like to see a game played with average or even less than favourable conditions. Because although now I feel confident working a CE when I've got a peninsula I can easily block off, or perhaps even an isolated start, I've no idea what to do in a more "normal" starting position. When I looked at the run-through of that last game at the end, every other civ had a lot less space than us, so knowing how to run a game from one of those points of view would be very helpful!

HE is hammer economy, EE is espionage, RE is religious economy, TRE is trade route economy, WE or SSE is Wonder/Super specialist economy (although some people consider them separate), PHI-SE is bulb-fest specialist economy.

HE is hammer economy, EE is espionage, RE is religious economy, TRE is trade route economy, WE or SSE is Wonder/Super specialist economy (although some people consider them separate), PHI-SE is bulb-fest specialist economy.

So presumable Hammers is a warmongering approach. PHI-SE is the standard SE getting the specialists, WE is spamming wonders for their GP points. How does a RE work? Surely thats just a cottage but you found an early religion and spread it for the shrine letting you run 100% slider or as close as.

Control the AP for either a cheese win or just a modest :hammers: boost. Land University of Sankore and Spiral Minarette for modest bumps in :science: and :gold:. Pay for most of your economy from spreading a very early religion and landing the shrine. Bulb through theology to unlock paper crazy early. Its very fast to paper but tends to slow down from there. Its also not recommended on continents maps, mostly a pangea only kind of thing.

@Feral

About diplomacy in this game. When exactly will or will not an AI attack. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that all the AI's on our continent will declare at pleased. Not sure about Perciles or Vicky. But they need boats to reach us anyway. So they are not a problem until at least astronomy right?

Now in my game I dont have anyone to friendly yet unfortunately. Though Willem shouldnt be a problem once I go into FS. Everyone needs to go through Willem to get to me. Willem has a pissed off Monty in the SW and a pissed off Mansa across his entire E border. I cant imagine he wants to start a war with me and be getting it from all angles. But if my power numbers are low enough will he consider me too juicy and declare even if he has Monty and Mansa to worry about?

Monty and Mansa pretty much hate me because I stopped caving to demands centuries ago. I figured if they started to beat down Willem I would make an army and help out. But its mostly a stalemate between those 3. Shaka has also been at war with Mansa so he cant reach me either. I figured no way he will DOW on me with Mansa right there.

Stalin is kind of a concern since he's been back and forth between pleased and cautious toward me. But he doesnt have much land and kind of a non factor in this game. Mostly been ignoring him. Probably a mistake lol. Would he trek through Shaka, Mansa and Willem to get to me? If he does I think I should be able to spot him in time. Quick civic change to Nationhood, Slavery, and Theocracy should be able to fend him off.

My big question is what happens at Astronomy? Will the AI's on my continent build a navy and sail around the borders blocking them on land? How much does my power numbers play into the equation? For example Shaka. Will he build boats and sail over to me with his hated rival Mansa at home?

My guess is Im way more vunerable than I think and need to up my defense. I plan to do that regardless next round. Just hoping for a little insight here. Sorry for the long post.

@Mogur


About diplomacy in this game. When exactly will or will not an AI attack. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that all the AI's on our continent will declare at pleased. Not sure about Perciles or Vicky. But they need boats to reach us anyway. So they are not a problem until at least astronomy right?

Now in my game I dont have anyone to friendly yet unfortunately. Though Willem shouldnt be a problem once I go into FS. Everyone needs to go through Willem to get to me. Willem has a pissed off Monty in the SW and a pissed off Mansa across his entire E border. I cant imagine he wants to start a war with me and be getting it from all angles. But if my power numbers are low enough will he consider me too juicy and declare even if he has Monty and Mansa to worry about?

Monty and Mansa pretty much hate me because I stopped caving to demands centuries ago. I figured if they started to beat down Willem I would make an army and help out. But its mostly a stalemate between those 3. Shaka has also been at war with Mansa so he cant reach me either. I figured no way he will DOW on me with Mansa right there.

Stalin is kind of a concern since he's been back and forth between pleased and cautious toward me. But he doesnt have much land and kind of a non factor in this game. Mostly been ignoring him. Probably a mistake lol. Would he trek through Shaka, Mansa and Willem to get to me? If he does I think I should be able to spot him in time. Quick civic change to Nationhood, Slavery, and Theocracy should be able to fend him off.

My big question is what happens at Astronomy? Will the AI's on my continent build a navy and sail around the borders blocking them on land? How much does my power numbers play into the equation? For example Shaka. Will he build boats and sail over to me with his hated rival Mansa at home?

My guess is Im way more vunerable than I think and need to up my defense. I plan to do that regardless next round. Just hoping for a little insight here. Sorry for the long post.

I think its safe to say our diplomatic situation is extremely favorable. While I'm not as confident as TMIT in this regard I definitely was fairly lax on my military at certain points. Not completely lax, I always had 5-10 units in my 2 border cities ... but I was not prepared to receive a Shaka SoD. Willem's SoD would have been managable though with what I had. I actually had Stalin DoW on me this game but he sent like 3 units at me so it was worthless.

The AI does tend to suck at cross ocean attacks but I would still keep 2 good defenders per city on that east coast since that's how Stalin or Shaka would come, if they chose to. Willem can be kept at bay with a decent show of force down south. Vicky/Pericles both suck at war and if they came would likely hit your lower SW cities, one of which will be a willem border anyhow. Your entire northern arc is farily safe. That said Vicky/Pericles DID produce the biggest threat to me late game and DoWed shortly before I finished my rocket. The threat was about 4 transports worth of troops and a fairly impressive number of destroyers and subs. I had a very weak navy and they went for my little island cities. I managed to keep them at bay by spamming battleships and got all by 1 transport sunk. In the end it wasn't much of a threat but had I not been going to space I wouldn't have had that kind of production to spam out big ships like that it might have been a bit more harrowing. Of course I had little to fear once they landed as I had MGs and tanks everywhere but still ... it was a real threat.

I do not believe anyone will attack THROUGH Willem who isn't pleased with him.

Feral:

Not sure what you mean with east coast, but Shaka and Stalin would NEVER attack with boats on this map. They are on the same landmass, so the code forces them to attack on the ground. And if Will doesn't like them and keeps his border close, they can't do anything.

I think (not 100% sure) they can start preparing a war anyway, and then stay there when they realize there's no way to reach the target.

That's awesome AI ... did not know that.

Ok then Willem is the only one who can declare on me. Everyone else needs to cross an unfriendly civ or an ocean to get to me. Do Pericles or Vicky declare at pleased?

Vicky's a backstabbing . .. .. .. .. .. I'm pretty sure she is in the lowest tier for peaceprob at pleased. So yes, she can declare.
Pericles doesn't declare at pleased.

If some AI is in good terms with Will, they can cross his empire to attack you (open borders with Will is the key here). They tend to prioritize targets with shared borders but if they hate you enough/you are too weak, they can attack you.

Let's just say you have so screw it up pretty badly on this map to get declared by Shaka, Stalin or Monte.