OK, you guys on this site are great. I've learned a lot. I can do well on emperor but I've almost always done pangea maps and I have not had BTS all that long. So anyway I'm playing William on Arch map and I am 1 turn from lib in 1040. I can choose astronomy or Nat or delay a bit and maybe try to get something like rep parts on the way to the unique building at steam power. I doubt I can delay long enough to get steam power. I have 12 cities, all coastal, the GLH and Colossus.

My big question comes from the fact that in games played online people seem to act like its a given to take astro on this type of map, but it obsoletes the Colossus and I am working a ton of water squares. I could go around the world in a galley. I ran a test and took astro and my trade income barely changed. So I could take astro for the unique unit, but it will hurt my economy. So why do people automatically take astro on this map? Or am i wrong about that.


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I don't need trade fodder as I have the tech lead, so delaying and going for the dike looks best to me, but I'm so inexperienced on water maps. Which is why I am playing William. The game is on emporer.

I don't think astro is an automatic. You always have to consider the situation. If you don't have any pressing need for astro, then you can delay it. Are you getting overseas trades and trade routes already without astro? That can happen in some cases afaik. If so, then astro becomes much, much less appealing, especially if you have the colossus. If you can settle surrounding islands with galleys, astro also becomes much, much less appealing. If all of that is the case then astro only becomes necessary if you want to invade a neighbour. 4 units/ship is much better than 2/ship. Essentially halves the number of shuttles you need.

I've skipped astro as willem before(on watery maps) and use combustion instead if colossus is huge for income. That said sometimes you do need it for offense / defense. There really is a long way to combustion...

Not having to escort your shuttles until the appearance of enemy frigates is also nice.

Dikes are a gamebreaker on Arch maps.
Go for Astronomy when you are ready to expand or invade.

Welcome to the Forums Dwisetiger. :beer:

Dikes are a gamebreaker on Arch maps.
Go for Astronomy when you are ready to expand or invade.

Welcome to the Forums Dwisetiger. :beer:

Don't bring the BTS Disc. dike orgy over here :(. Well, you can, but I don't have to like it and it's been shown that they're useful but not game breaking. Oh well. Back on topic.

On Astro:

You don't want to avoid astro long. Sure, it obsoletes colossus, but it also gives you access to a 25% science multiplier with the same tech. For every 5-7 commerce (TOPS) you're losing for obsoleting the colossus, you get a 25% multiplier added back by building this. Do you want +50% of 50 or + 75% of say 44? That's pretty favorable in terms of the colossus by the way, and yet the colossus still comes out behind (very frequently you'd be working seafood and land tiles first, limiting the colossus effects although it is still very nice for FIN civs).

Now, in addition to that building, you get other important bonuses from astronomy. First of all, if someone else has it and you don't, your navy is toast. Frigates vs triremes/caravel/galley = no thanks. Even galleons will beat every ship you have most of the time. Astro is also one of the pre-reqs to scientific method, in case you want state property.

So while it doesn't necessarily help research GREATLY, it does help it. It also gives you an important power in your military. You can't pass it up forever.

Of course, there's the final consideration that some land bodies aren't accessible on archipelago without it, on many of those maps :). You might be able to circumnavigate, but can you reach EVERYTHING?

I think people underestimate observatories. You are looking at a decent bump in overall research once you can build them and they're fairly cheap. Additionally if you want to lib through astronomy then you can usually get a whole slew of free Great People from Physics, Communism, and Facism. Hell you might even be able to lib Physics and really turn on the late-game tech race early. All of that works fine with an Archipalego map.

Honestly most arch maps lends themselves more towards a non-domination victory anyhow so its worth considering that kind of a tech line.

Especially with Willem, if you're planning any invasions of other landmasses, you have access to your nice boats, to carry 4 troops, giving you a big edge. And with their extra strength, you can probably afford to go about 75%/25% transports/escorts instead of 50/50 like most other people would go for.

Thanks all. About the observatories, I did not ignore them but I had almost no production at all on most of my cities, so getting them up would take forever. I actually ended up delaying and taking steam power with lib. Things are looking good. I think I am going to found my first corps in this game, going with sid and mining.

Another option is to take Chemistry or Steel. Chemistry adds an extra hammer to your workshops, which is important in a low production environment like Archipelago, Steel allows Cannon, which can take on anything your opponents have, and Drydocks.

It always hurts taking astronomy when you have the colossus, but you have to bite that bullet sooner or later to get the techs it opens up.

Thanks all. About the observatories, I did not ignore them but I had almost no production at all on most of my cities, so getting them up would take forever. I actually ended up delaying and taking steam power with lib. Things are looking good. I think I am going to found my first corps in this game, going with sid and mining.

Dwisetiger,

Are you still running Slavery at this point in the game? If so, when you nab Astronomy, work an Observatory 1 turn, then whip it the rest of the way...you'll be whipping away those (now) worthless water tiles. This will easily make up for the loss in Commerce by seeing a bonus in Science in very few turns.

I don't think astro is an automatic. You always have to consider the situation. If you don't have any pressing need for astro, then you can delay it. Are you getting overseas trades and trade routes already without astro? That can happen in some cases afaik. If so, then astro becomes much, much less appealing, especially if you have the colossus. If you can settle surrounding islands with galleys, astro also becomes much, much less appealing. If all of that is the case then astro only becomes necessary if you want to invade a neighbour. 4 units/ship is much better than 2/ship. Essentially halves the number of shuttles you need.

I agree with this. If you are already in contact with some neighbours by means of coastal trade routes then the attractiveness of Astronomy is much reduced. On an archipelago map that is very often the case. Then Astronomy essentially gives :
a) galleons, which can carry 3 units (not 4 as futurehermit suggests) and move 4 tiles, very useful if you want to invade neighbours. Galleys upgrade to galleons.
b) observatories which boost research and are useful if you need something to build. I find I have far too many other things to build at this time for this to be a good reason to hurry to the tech.
c) allows the trading of resources and trade routes with other civs with open borders and who are not running mercantilism.

It is a useful tech but obsoleting Colossus and Stonehenge can be painful if you are relying on those wonders.

The OP is dutch, so futurehermit was correct, btw.

Observatories are good builds in science cities, and the best ones will probably benefit from them fast.

Astro tends to trade well - I've milked this trade on LHC games (although usually isolating someone from the trade loop, aka an intended target). It's valuable trade bait and for whatever reason, the AIs get it slowly...even on immortal?! Don't ask me why.

Winning the race to islands with decent to strong resources is a plus.

If you need military, you're gonna need them...and I'd have other things I'd prefer upgrading to galleys.

Astronomy isn't too crucial on Archipelago maps; with enough island cities even your domestic trade routes aren't too shabby and if you have a few regular trading partners it might not make enough of a difference to be worth prioritising.

I'd say it's a higher priority in Hemisphere and Continents maps.

I could make it to almost every island by galley. Astro did not help trade route wise at all. I thought getting steam power from lib was quite a coup beaker wise. It also let me whip dikes right away. Yes I was still in slavery, so whipping the observatories was an option, but isn't it better to whip the dikes and then be able to build whatever I want? Even without the colossus water tiles with a hammer and financial are pretty nice.

About trading astro, I had a solid techlead and nothing decent to trade for. Even after I went to steam power there was only one tech for me to trade for, and that was astro, which I got by packaging together some lesser non military techs.

Astro did let me get to an island with 2 gems on it that I could not reach. I was still able to get there first though. I suppose that was lucky because I need the happiness.

It's about 1520 in the game. I've got infantry and I think only 1 or 2 ais have rifleman. I am up to 20 cites. A few are young and I have happy cap problems so I am still using the whip some. I jsut founded sushi and will soon have mining inc. I think going space will be easier than domination. I'll stay in HR and put 3-4 infantry per city. Wish I could have unlocked heroic epic at some point. I'm pretty happy with taking steam power for dikes from lib but still open to to other ides for next time. My biggest problem empire wide was poor production.

I could make it to almost every island by galley. Astro did not help trade route wise at all. I thought getting steam power from lib was quite a coup beaker wise. It also let me whip dikes right away. Yes I was still in slavery, so whipping the observatories was an option, but isn't it better to whip the dikes and then be able to build whatever I want? Even without the colossus water tiles with a hammer and financial are pretty nice.

About trading astro, I had a solid techlead and nothing decent to trade for. Even after I went to steam power there was only one tech for me to trade for, and that was astro, which I got by packaging together some lesser non military techs.

Astro did let me get to an island with 2 gems on it that I could not reach. I was still able to get there first though. I suppose that was lucky because I need the happiness.

It's about 1520 in the game. I've got infantry and I think only 1 or 2 ais have rifleman. I am up to 20 cites. A few are young and I have happy cap problems so I am still using the whip some. I jsut founded sushi and will soon have mining inc. I think going space will be easier than domination. I'll stay in HR and put 3-4 infantry per city. Wish I could have unlocked heroic epic at some point. I'm pretty happy with taking steam power for dikes from lib but still open to to other ides for next time. My biggest problem empire wide was poor production.

If you want to unlock Heroic Epic on Archipelago, just build three Privateers. The AI will keep offering up Caravels for them to munch on for juicy experience.