Currently there's only a few heroes for hired at the beginning of the scenarios. So which new heroes would you like to see in future releases?
:king:

For me, I want to see Huang Gai for Wu and perhaps some of the later heroes such as Deng Ai or Jiang Wei or Lu Xun who played significant parts near the end of the Three Kingdoms era.

Those heroes come pretty late so in current scenario when they are ready to debut you probably have won:lol:

Adding heroes are not the hard part, the hard part is to brain storm a few proper promotions for them and actually implement those promotions.

What I'd like to have is some late heroes who offer their help to a civ through an event. Say some small civ under heavy attack would receive a heroe with a ready made legion. The trigger would depend on power ratio of a civ to the aggressor.

I don't think I understand what you mean by "I want to see Huang Gai for Wu".

As far as I can tell there is no Wu, Wei, or Shu, only leaders.... This was originally a source of confusion the first time I loaded up and saw Cao Cao/Cao Cao, when I was thinking WTF!?!? shouldn't that say Cao Cao/ Cao Wei? or just Wei...

But yea, I can't even think of all their names, but this is still definitely missing at least half of the characters from Dynasty Warriors. It would be nice to have all of them.

Yeah, having some help for small civs would help. (E.g. Ma Teng gets some heroic sons--Ma Chao and Ma Tai)

I think you should add in Taishi Ci and Huang Gai. :)

Taishi Ci is already in.

Maybe we can allow some of the later characters to be born a little earlier (e.g. Lu Xun, Jiang Wei, Zhong Hui and Deng Ai)?

I agree with AP. There is no harm in heroes being around a little out of their exact historical life-time. Also if the new modifications for slowing down research and military build-up work well there will still be a need for such heroes in the middle of the game. I am playing Liu Zhang who starts with one hero. I am around the middle of the effective game time and all heroes are hired. I defeated a couple of them but wasn't able to capture any. So it would be nice if new heroes emerge from time to time and be available for hiring.

I agree with pretty much everyone else. More heros=better! Especially for the small disadvantaged civs.
On the other hand, are there any plans to add Lu Bu as a hero? I see a Flying General promotion in the Pedia, (forgive me if anyone else is known as the Flying General) which seems odd without a hero to use it.

I think there are still a few Cao Cao Generals missing. Yue Jin is there and two others but I think Yu Jin and one other General is missing.

Firstly have to say, I downloaded recently and am very much enjoying this mod. It's been my first foray away from FFH since I first downloaded that early last year.

Anyhow, a particular favouite TV programme from my youth was the Water Margin....so I was a tad dissapointed to see that the timing for this was sometime after the HotK. It did get me wondering though whether it could perhaps be the inspiration to have Barbarian Heroes that would occasionally go around causing a bit of havoc of their own?

In particular, perhaps they could have a unique promotion which would give a chance that defeated opponents (perhaps not units that are part of a Legion/lead by a Champion), could be converted to their cause rather than be destroyed?

Firstly have to say, I downloaded recently and am very much enjoying this mod. It's been my first foray away from FFH since I first downloaded that early last year.

Anyhow, a particular favouite TV programme from my youth was the Water Margin....so I was a tad dissapointed to see that the timing for this was sometime after the HotK. It did get me wondering though whether it could perhaps be the inspiration to have Barbarian Heroes that would occasionally go around causing a bit of havoc of their own?

In particular, perhaps they could have a unique promotion which would give a chance that defeated opponents (perhaps not units that are part of a Legion/lead by a Champion), could be converted to their cause rather than be destroyed?

You know Barbarian heroes would be interesting. Alot of the heroes in Romance of the Three Kingdoms started as bandits or pirates. For example, Gan Ning right now who can be recruited used to be a pirate and so was Zhou Tai. It would be interesting instead of hiring Gan Ning from the get go, he can be a pirate causing mayham and can be captured for use.

Y not have hero built by players as in it takes a enormus amount of shields to build and its capability determine by you as they gain exp in this case all civ is more balance in terms of hero

Hey all.
Been a big fan of this mod for a while now and was immensely disappointed when it hit delays (but totally understanding- I've had exactly the same thing happen in different games).
Though now that Smartin released the Patch A, I figured I may as well post an idea in here. I don't know if he intends to do much more upgrading, but figured give it a try anyway.

I'd like to see some heroes who didn't traditionally do too much fighting operate as domestic heroes. They cannot join a legion (or even allow them to do this, but offer little/no benefits) but they have other advantages. They could have abilities such as, any city they are in has x% increase in military unit production, or non-wonder buildings etc. Or the city produces x% more taxes, or science or culture.

Once they are in a city they gain a small amount of XP every turn, rather than having to fight.
So they get a constant steam of experience, allowing them to level up over the course of the game.



Also, to help the smaller factions out what about something like a generic, 'Captain' hero. They are significantly less powerful than a normal hero, but allow legions to be formed and a few increases in capability.
Perhaps not give them any Captains to start with, but have the opportunity to acquire them (for a price) as the game goes on.

That way, for the bigger nations its not worth it, as they are just minor heroes not worth the cost. But for the lesser nations, it gives them a boost to their army and a chance to acquire some better heroes from somewhere else.

This is an excellent idea. They could even be the basis for the Advisor addition to the mod. Zhuge Liang can give, for example, 10% more espionage, 10% gold and 10% science, while Zhao Yu would only give 5% of each.

We are doing something again right now, although slowly. In next release, I plan to pick Hero Allegiance as the main focus. Since it's still in design phase, it could change. If I found that advisors should go first, then next release will be about advisors.

The generic captain idea is great, I'll certainly consider it. Thanks!

I really like the generic captain idea as well, and it's great to hear that the advisors and heroes are being worked on!

You know to build on that about domestic advisors gaining xp. Wouldn't it be interesting if that domestic advisor gained enough xp then they can build roads or farms faster, almost like a super worker, or be able to build unique structures like the Zhege Liang's maze or Zhou Yu's naval training base or something like that.

Would like to actually see legions, that's more than 1 to 3 troops. Maybe a scenario with higher leading capicity and cheaper to build troops that cost much less upkeep?

bye Myri

Would like to actually see legions, that's more than 1 to 3 troops. Maybe a scenario with higher leading capicity and cheaper to build troops that cost much less upkeep?

bye Myri

I'm testing the following changes:

1. weaken the unit combat promotions
2. remove the hero level prerequisite for heroes to gain certain unit combat level
3. grant AI bonuses about unit maintenance
4. balance other promotions to make them more in line with unit combat promotion

In this way you will be able to lead 4 or 5 units quite early if you choose to. However, choosing which promotion to gain will be a tough decision. Also AI should be able to mass produce units like they always do.

When you say unit combat promotions, you mean ones that correspond to the hero's aptitude in that class right?
Either way, a nice rebalancing of the legion promotions would be great to see. Right now the only really powerful promotions are the Attack line and the Vigour line. The attack line is nicely balanced though, since it carries the huge defencive penalty. I think the vigour line should be kept as is, since it's what gives all the other promotions their power.
So, with that in mind, I think the other legion promotions should be buffed rather than bringing everything down a level (except for the hero combat level promotions of course).

Sounds great. I really like you want to weaken combat promotions, that helps the ai a lot, because only humans have strong core troops while the ai only knows how to mass produce and harakiri.

bye Myri

Sounds great. I really like you want to weaken combat promotions, that helps the ai a lot, because only humans have strong core troops while the ai only knows how to mass produce and harakiri.

bye Myri

I think I have to disagree with this. Though the AI is hurt by its lack of high leveled troops, I just don't think bringing down the human player to its level is not the answer. If the combat promotions are weakened, then it becomes a spamfest of whoever can produce the most units in a given timeframe. Though it may make the game more balanced, it would lead to excessive micromanagement and a loss of the "ohh, look at my elite units!" feeling. Of course, that's just my opinion, and it does appear that the approach has been used in other mods such as TAM for quite some time.

That being said, perhaps it would be possible to give the AI free unit experience a-la-FfH so it would be producing troops of good quality right off the bat. That should help bring the AI up more to the humans level of troops quality without taking anything away from gameplay.

By unit combat promotions I mean promotions a legion unit gained according to it's hero's corresponding unit combat level. I think those promotions used to be too powerful, player would always want to choose those promotions first. We have to introduce artificial limitations such as hero level prerequisites to limit access to those promotions. That does not feel right.

So I adjusted all promotions in the released Patch A. You can all see the effect and tell me if something went too far.

wu an guo of kong rong, he solo lu bu to 30 rounds in the book

wu an guo of kong rong, he solo lu bu to 30 rounds in the book

Are you sure? Please double check this one.:lol:

yah he did if i remember correctly in hu lao pass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hulao_Pass

The poor maceman only lasted 10 rounds...:(

ok my bad my mistake haha.

so, do you think you can enlighten us on which 40 heroes you've added in the next release? :please:
I just noticed that little post in the main thread... looks exciting!

Patience my friend. A friend of us who is an expert in history is making up the list. Most of the famous heroes will get on stage this time. However, if we try to adhere to our quality standard, which we always do, it will take more time than a week. :D

I don't mind waiting, especially given the great quality that's practically been the trademark of this mod! Great to see though that most of famous guys will be in this time, Wu has been a lonely place of late.

Regarding heroes and legions, I'd like to point out that "generals" actually did not play that big of a part when it came to commanding troops as much as marshals and stratigists. At that era, the stratigists would lay out the formations and such before the battle, and once the battle is joined, it's basically mass chaos. A battalion led by Guan Yu isn't that much more affective than a battalion led by Liu Hua, except for the fact that Guan Yu is killing a few hundred men by himself and boosting the moral of his soldiers, while the latter is hiding behind a wall of shields.

I love the existing legion system, but if you want to emphasize the powers of the "big 3" grand commanders (ZL, Sima Yi, and Zhou Yu), then have 2 classes of heroes. GENERALS only command 1 unit, making it a super unit (like the BtS Great General), and COMMANDERS can form legions with special abilities, like the HoTK legions.

For example, ZL could command, say, 5 units in his legion (can we say, 5 tiger generals?), and his special ability would be negating terrain disadvantages, and automatically hitting the units most vulnerable to the attacking type (like how Ballista Elephants hit mounted units first). Sima Yi would command 4 units, and his special ability would be, say, all archery units get to inflict collateral damage when one of the units attack, since part of Wei's tactics is to blanket the enemy with a hail of arrows.

We will emphasize the superior importance of Zhuge Liang, Zhou Yu and Sima Yi, but it seems our legion system works quite right, so I doubt it's good to nerf them and make Guan Yu command only 1 unit.

Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu are no different in regard to their leading troops and deciding the outcome of combat. They are both No.1 in charge, for example, Guan Yu is the one leading Jing Zhou army to fight with Cao Cao and Lu Meng, and Zhuge Liang is the one leading Shu army to fight with Sima Yi. They both make strategies, except perhaps Zhuge Liang's strategies are better. And of course, Guan Yu is a great warrior while Zhuge Liang is a great politician. That means their promotions and abilities will be different.

We will emphasize the superior importance of Zhuge Liang, Zhou Yu and Sima Yi, but it seems our legion system works quite right, so I doubt it's good to nerf them and make Guan Yu command only 1 unit.

I agree. As I said, I love the existing legion system. At least until I get bored of it after winning with all 3 factions multipul times with different methods.

Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu are no different in regard to their leading troops and deciding the outcome of combat. They are both No.1 in charge, for example, Guan Yu is the one leading Jing Zhou army to fight with Cao Cao and Lu Meng, and Zhuge Liang is the one leading Shu army to fight with Sima Yi. They both make strategies, except perhaps Zhuge Liang's strategies are better. And of course, Guan Yu is a great warrior while Zhuge Liang is a great politician. That means their promotions and abilities will be different.

I have to disagree on that. Guan Yu and other generals did act autonomously when commissioned with an army, and some were even appointed as governors and what not, with supreme powers. But in grand campaigns, even the tiger generals had to answer to ZL and Zhou Yu, and there were several cases where the "warriors" were not happy in having to serve under those "philosophers."

But if you look at the accounts of the battle, whenever a "hero" entered the battle, it's him with a weapon, leading the charge. Once engaged, the main form of command is for the men to follow his battle standard. If it went forward, go forward, and vice versa. Very rarely does Guan Yu stop in the middle of hacking through the enemy, turn to the lance corporal, pick through the command flags, and waive the flags to the other legions to signal commands. It's ZL, SY, or Zhou Yu sitting on top of the hill in some ornate alter with the smoke, fire, and flag signals.

Like when Zhou Yun saved Gongsun Zan's a$$ against Yuan Shou at the River Pan bridge. He didn't arrange the troop formations like Braveheart at the Battle of Stirling Bridge. No, he ran on the bridge himself and pwned Yuan Shou's army by himself. He couldn't have cared less if he had a legion behind him, or a single schmuck with a chopstick.

I'm going to have to side with stmartin on this one. It is true that when "heroes" enter battle they rarely seem to stop fighting, but you have to realize their legion consists of several different units, each with it's own deputy/officer. That can account for the fact that in game, having Guan Yu lead the charge doesn't mean that the rest of his legion suicides on the other defenders. You can also chalk that up to planning before the battle.

As for strategies and such, you have to concede that Guan Yu and most other "heroes" were all at least competent generals too (from a historical standpoint along with the novel view). Zhao Yun did utilize ploys and ambushes on several occasions as well, showing that they relied on more than thier own strength. The more advanced strategies can be, as stmartin said, implemented with more advanced promotions.

Finally, on the large campaign scale, I believe that grand strategies are beyond the scope of units. Pretend that you are ZL, SY or Zhou Yu when you plan you campaigns, because essentially their campaign plans are how you choose to move your units. So in a sense, the game already has them reporting directly to you!

As for winning easily as all three factions (here I assume you were using Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Ce) it can be easily done without legions, as it was in the first release. They simply have the best position, the best resources and the best traits. Remeber, if you nerf the "heroes" everyone suffers. Except Wei, Wu and Shu, who would gain great strategists, rendering the change useless from a gameplay perspective.

Finally, on the large campaign scale, I believe that grand strategies are beyond the scope of units. Pretend that you are ZL, SY or Zhou Yu when you plan you campaigns, because essentially their campaign plans are how you choose to move your units. So in a sense, the game already has them reporting directly to you!


That's true, the player does make all the exec decisions. Liu Bei and Sun Quan were mostly figureheads, with their respective grand stratigists making the critical decisions (maybe the US govt can learn something there...leave the general-ing to the generals). And Sima Yi was the defacto ruler of Wei, and ended up being the emperor.

It goes back to the discussion of "who the heck AM I?" The human player is like some sort of immortal spirit that can transend 6000 years of human history to lead a race through the ages, with godlike powers to smite whole cities with the pressing of Ctrl-W. But that's an off-off-off topic discussion.

As for winning easily as all three factions (here I assume you were using Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Ce) it can be easily done without legions, as it was in the first release. They simply have the best position, the best resources and the best traits. Remeber, if you nerf the "heroes" everyone suffers. Except Wei, Wu and Shu, who would gain great strategists, rendering the change useless from a gameplay perspective.

Would you say the Big 3 are the easiest to play? It seems like Liu Biao and Yuan Shao has equal, of not better, starting positions. Yuan Shao starts with quite a bit of resources and infrastructure at his disposal, though with several warmongers around him. Liu Biao has the luxury of being centralized with opportunity to expand, yet has very few threats (well, ONE major threat, the Sun family who hates his guts). And you know how those Lius band together! Not likely for Liu Zhang to backstab him.

Hmm... I'd say the big three are probably the easiest, though Yuan Shao and Liu Biao come really close.

Yuan Shao's weakness in is the military department, not because the lack of generals, but from the long time it takes to turn the Northern Plains into a millitary machine. Too many plains and hills mean very little early troop production compared to say Cao Cao. Not to mention, they have to go through Guan Du, which can mean a very bloody battle early on if Cao Cao makes it to Elite Archers before you attack. He comes close to pushing Liu Bei off the list, but Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are worth more than all of the generals he has combined. Zhang He may be awesome, but he betrays easily to Cao Cao... your first major rival. Happened to me more than once. Lose the 95% city attack, then next turn he's sallying out of the city laying waste to my army.

Liu Biao does win the posistion comparison, but the Jing Province cities lack production. Most of the game therefore is spent constructing buildings and teching. Given that there is no viable peaceful victory except time in this game, Liu Biao lack a good way to win. Sure he gets Huang Zhong and Wen Pin, but Archer Generals are quite weak against Cao Cao's Cavalry and Sun Ce's Danyang Armies. Not to say it isn't possible to build up troops and roll over everyone, but it's harder than the other three.

I'd rank the top three as:
1.) Sun Ce - River Harbors, Seawalls, Charismatic and a few good generals make for total win.
2.) Cao Cao - Great land, great generals, weak neighbors... what not to want?
3.) Liu Bei - Iron Willed, Benevolent, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei makes for very fast expansion once the ball gets rolling.


Finally, to keep the thread on topic... Hopefully Ma Dai is added in the next release, because Ma Teng really needs either a big millitary boost to make them a decent faction, or a large research boost!

Liu Biao does win the posistion comparison, but the Jing Province cities lack production. Most of the game therefore is spent constructing buildings and teching. Given that there is no viable peaceful victory except time in this game


I disagree. In fact cultural victory is very possible for nearly all the civs, as long you are able to maintain peace after getting a sufficiently large empire. (in fact the original thread has a whole series done by me on cultural victory). Liu Biao with his UP is the ne plus ultra for getting quick cultural victories.
(Also, production is never far away after Jianan literature and lots of farms around).

Oops, I totally forgot about cultural :lol:
Liu Biao should have no problem with that victory!

just a quick note about the generic captains idea, I think it would be great if the player could somehow name them, or if they could get a name generated by faction. Also, I am excited to see how you implement the grand strategists like ZhugeLiang!

@the1sean

Take a look at this post if you haven't already : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8351966&postcount=454

The random heroes will have random names.

I'd like to see Heroines, like Da Qiao, Xiao Qiao, Zhen Luo ecc., that could have a support role for heroes, with promotions like Siren, Gladden heart (i don't remember exactly the name) from ROTK XI

Heroines would work better as spy units (maybe to decrease a general's promotions, lower their loyalty or even make them defect altogether). I miss the days when you could convert enemy units.

@ AnotherPacifist
Well, I think that defection could apply only to few women, like Zhen Luo (aka Zhen Ji) and the Siren power in Rotk is similar to what you've told. I really can't image Da Qiao in the role of the seducer... she is too innocent, like her sister.

Hehe, they will definitely debut in the Mod someday. Absolutely.

ooh, now this is going to be good. Now all we need is a Diao Chan, a Dong Zhuo scenario, and a nice assasination event and we can have some real fun with intrigue.

Well hopefully this forum picks up again, so here's my contribution to the hero wishlist: Jiang Wei and Deng Ai.

If those two are included, it would make for some nice endgame fun and also allow the creation of interesting late scenarios.

Well hopefully this forum picks up again, so here's my contribution to the hero wishlist: Jiang Wei and Deng Ai.

If those two are included, it would make for some nice endgame fun and also allow the creation of interesting late scenarios.

Hey no need to push too hard friend, if we have more players (which needs some more advertising than just CFC in my opinion, because we have used every possible way of marketing we can here :crazyeye:) we will have more discussions.

As for Jiang Wei and Deng Ai, I believe they will eventually in the game. V2.5 is out of the question though. We are trying very hard just not to delete features in the V2.5 plan.

Speaking of late game scenarios, I once played an iteration of the ROTK Nintendo games (in my college days) where I had united the country a long time ago (first under Cao, then the Simas), and tried to delay the death of everybody until there was just poor/generic/mediocre governors standing. Then they started dying and there was no one to replace them, so I lost territories until there was no one standing! :lol: It was like the heat death of the universe.

If something like that could prolong my interest in this mod I would be glad. :D

@AP

Oh my. That definitely sounds like a great 'goal' to play a game:)

I have a few suggestions for characters you can add. If more information is required or input needed on possible promotions, I would be happy to help with that. For now it's kind of late and I just thought I'd jot down some ideas for fleshing out some of the lesser factions. I realize that balance may be an issue here. I'm not sure how well some of these characters would work out in light of this.

Yan Xing (Han Sui loyal): According to Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's A Biographical Dictionary of the Later-Han to the Three Kingdoms (from now on simply called "Rafe's tome"), he was a strong officer of Han Sui's. When Han Sui and Ma Teng had a falling out, Yan Xing dueled with, injured and nearly killed Ma Chao in AD 197. Yan Xing urged Han Sui to engage in diplomatic arrangements in Cao Cao, advice that Han Sui indeed followed until joining with Ma Chao in opposition. Later Yan Xing betrayed Han Sui in a surprise attack, but was ultimately forced back. He served Cao Cao thereafter. Crespigny cites Sanguozhi as his source. Perhaps he could have high cavalry potential like Han Sui, since that seems to be that force's focus.

Gongsun Du himself (Gongsun Du): Gongsun Du was actually called Gongsun Du The Warlike (even in the novel, where he is only very briefly mentioned) because of his talent in warfare. When I played him, the faction only had Liu Yi as an officer, however. Again keeping with the focus of that force's strengths, I'd say he should be a largely naval officer, but perhaps with skill in leading melee troops as well so as to compliment Liu Yi's abilities. Navies are kinda meh in civ 4, but Gongsun Du's position in Qing (oddly), Northeastern China and Korea emphasize a lot of naval transport and sometimes even combat.

Zhai Rong (Tao Qian or Liu Yao or even both: Liu Yao is favorable since that faction has an in-game Buddhist focus): Zhai Rong is one of the most bizarre figures of the period. According to Rafe's tome, he was a Buddhist man (somewhat rare for the time) who joined Tao Qian. Under Tao Qian's service he embezzled supplies and used them to build a Buddhist temple with several thousand followers. Later he fled Tao Qian's lands, killed the Administrator Zhao Yu, and joined Liu Yao. He fought Sun Ce under Liu Yao's service, was defeated, and then ended up betraying Liu Yao. Briefly he took over some other land. Eventually he was killed after incurring defeats against Liu Yao. He'd probably work as a melee officer. Maybe could have some skills in siege since there aren't too many of those.

Xu Rong (Pass-West): Xu Rong is one of the most underrated officers of the period. He was essentially Dong Zhuo's best officer after Dong Zhuo came to power. According to Rafe's tome, he was responsible for defeating Cao Cao at Rongyang as well as inflicting a defeat upon Sun Jian. I believe this defeat was the same one where Zu Lang saved Sun Jian's life, but I'm not 100% on this. The problem with Xu Rong in the context of this mod is that he resisted Li Jue and was killed fighting Li Jue's party before the main scenarios of the game (he died in 192). Given that I can see how it might be difficult to incorporate him. However I have another suggestion as well.

Fan Chou (Pass-West): Fan Chou was a pretty significant general of Dong Zhuo's and Li Jue's. He was instrumental in beating back Ma Teng's invasion of Chang'an. However he fell out of favor with Li Jue and was executed. Sometimes Li Jue's faction is considered a triumvirate with Fan Chou being the third wheel aside from Li Jue and Guo Si. Both Fan Chou and Xu Rong I think would work best as dominantly melee officers with an archery sub-focus.

Some other information that may or may not be useful:

Gongsun Du called his state in Northeast China/Korea Ping (平).

Yuan Shu called his kingdom Zhong. I don't have the hanzi for this though. Sometimes it is mistakenly called Cheng, apparently.