I've made a quick draft of the techtree, based mostly on this list:
AGE OF THE STARS
Mining, Copper Working, Bronze Working, Jewelry, Wood Working, Fishing, Sailing, The Runes, Farming, Domestication, Hunting, Fortification
FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
Archery, Iron Working, Steel Working, Masonry, Chain Mail, Weaponry, Professional Armies, Mounted Combat, Siege Warfare, Tradition Keeping, Poetry, Music, Monarchy, Trade, Heraldry, Diplomacy, The Court, Infantry Tactics, Horseback Riding, Stone Working, Cavalry Tactics, Smithing, Ship Building
SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Chivalry, Pole Weapons, Navigation, Naval Warfare, Construction, Mithril Working, Sharpshooting, Strategy, Composed Armies, Outposts, Trade Posts, Healing, Vassalage, Migration, Long Swords, Battle Axes, Fortresses, Improved Warfare, Literature, Commerce, Treaties, Council of Wises, Improved Smithing
THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Advanced Smithing, War Hammers, Weapon Mastery, Longbows, Superior Pole Weapons, Swordsmanship, Advanced Siege Warfare, Ballistics, Engineering, Military Training, Horsemanship, Naval Tatics, Signal Fires, Exploration, Alliances, History, Great Trade Routes, Currency, The Wizards, The White Council, Stewardship, Total War
FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN
Crossbows, Trebuchets, Plate Armor, Machines, Feudalism, The Peace, Age of Men (Future Tech)

Warning: big
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree.png
Second Attempt:
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree2.png

Third Attempt:
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree3.png
Links:
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree.pdf
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree.odg (I made it with OpenOffice Draw)

One note: I dropped most of the weapons in the list, as I don't think they are technologies, but are what is enabled by a technology.
Please comment and feel free to offer suggestion or try it for yourself.

I like the list so far. The division in ages looks good to me. Maybe a good idea is to get a list of units going as well, this way we can fit the tech tree on that. I like the two lists in the other thread although I wouldn't seperate sword and spear mounted. I added a thread which gives a first indication of a unit list.

That will be the next step yes. If only I had thought of that before and left room to add them, now I have to modify every item to make space for buildings, units, wonders etc.... not so smart :(. Still, I think this works better to create an overview than simply starting to hack away at the xml-files.

I agree completely with you there. Just starting without a clear plan is useless. Structure is everything, especially if you try to do a lot and have to divide between people. As for putting things to techs: lets do that for units in the unit list and for other things, make a bulleted list like the civ and unit list and add it there.

Good tech tree. Perhaps Council of Wises could be renamed "Council of the Wise" or "Wise Council" though. I also noticed that Roads are not on there. Is that something "ALL" civs would start with then? Also Pottery (for cottage building - unless another tech would be used).

I'm also unsure about Council of Wises, and not only about the name. I think it should be a project/wonder (maybe like Overcouncil in FFH?? That's only available to 'Good' civs right?) and enabled by another Tech, but I couldn't think of a name for it, so I left it in as placeholder.

About Roads:
I think they would need a tech to enable them, but I could go either way.

Pottery:
Not sure. We could have a separate tech, of have them enabled with trade, though that would be relatively late on the tree. Other suggestions?

Pottery: I'm not sure about the cottages either. Could be in another tech although indeed trade may be a bit late. You would want them earlier I think. Roads can be added to any kind of early tech or make "the wheel" as a early tech. I think I would lean towards the last but no particular reasoning.

As for the councils: in FFH2 indeed this is a system that is based on allignment but is part of the civics options. It works very well. Overcouncil is available to good and neutral leaders and the undercouncil to evil and neutral leaders (but only if they have a specific religion in one of their cities). This can be adopted I think any way we want it, maybe even expanding it to other councils, depending on what we want or come up with.

PS: Sengir, maybe you already found it but there is a manual of FFH2 available here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8635. It is very helpfull in providing the diversity of the civs and a glimps at the traits that are available and some of the game mechanics.

Yeah, I found that allready. I haven't read it completely yet, just paged through it quickly.

We could add Pottery between Farming and Trade. The wheel could be a stand-alone (as in BtS), but required for trade)

Sounds like a good idea.

Roads could be activated with Stone-Working. I think that seems like a good fit.

Cottages could be with Woodworking - i.e. Building houses.

I like it so far. I think Alliances is a bit late in the game though.

I don't think you should need Stoneworking for roads, they should either be activated by The Wheel (or Woodworking), or just immediately available.

And I like the councils idea.

I only made those suggestions in the case that more Techs were not wanted to be added.

I don't have a problem with more techs, though I think we shouldn't get a techtree as unwielding as the FFH tree. Now problem adding a few more though.

I also had another idea on the Techs. I hope I make this very clear and not ramble it.

Each age sould be its own tech as well. Before anything else, you would have to research:

Stage 1: AGE OF THE STARS tech: Grants you Roads, Pottery, etc. Perhaps a bonus happiness or health or 1 gold/turn, etc.

Stage 2: You must research everything within that age of the world before advancing to the next age.

Stage 3: Research: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN tech: Grants you Calendar, 1 happiness, 1 health, etc.

Stage 4: repeat stage 2 for this age

etc., etc., etc.

I hope I made that clear for everyone. (I haven't slept in a few days, so I am very tired and abit :confused: to be honest. :lol:).

This is just an idea that came to me that I thought would be interesting. By including certain techs with the age techs, you sort of eliminate have to expand the Tech Tree to any degree. Grant 1 or 2 techs and maybe something else for each age and our issue with when we grant a tech for some of teh basic ones desiappears.

So there's a specific tech that you have to research to go on, but once you research the last one you have to work up towards the next one? I like it. It makes some nice and clear Age boundaries, which Middle-Earth definitely had. I just suggest making everybody start with the Age of Stars tech since otherwise slow-researching civs get a major setback initially.

That is a good idea for allowing AGE OF THE STARS as a free tech to all Civs.

It would come in handy to make Elven units progressively expensive (that is they start with a normal price, but becoming more expensive every age, to show the diminishing numbers of elves in Middle-Earth)

Yeah, but then playing an Elven civ becomes pretty hard by the end of the game. Not that that's historically inaccurate, but it's unbalanced gameplay.

They shouldn't be that expensive ;). But I agree, we will have to balance that if we are going to put that in to give the elves a fair chance in the later ages.

I agree that this will really be a balancing issue although I like the idea of differentiating the elves this way :)

Maybe Elven units should progress from normal-powered and normal-priced units to expensive-but-comparatively-strong units. That way there are less Elven units (and Elven civs will likely shrink due to it being harder to defend far-flung cities), but they won't be any weaker overall. Maybe make it so that Elves should have fewer cities through bonuses somehow given to the cities of smaller Elf civs.

Attempt at more coherent rephrase: As elves approach the late-game, their units get more powerful relative to everyone else, but also more expensive. They also get bonuses for having a few cities instead of a lot, and the few cities are economically and scientifically powerful enough to balance out everybody else having bigger empires.
Maybe as an extension: Some civs (like Elves) get bonuses for having a small number of cities, others get bonuses for having a medium number, and some civs (like say Númenor) get bonuses for having a lot of cities. Maybe the bonuses increase the later it is in the game (or start later in the game), so you still get the phenomenon of Elf nations being big and then substantially shrinking.
EDIT: I have NO idea how to pull this off.

How to make it possible... probably with civics restricted to race, traits, or UB's. For the elves it can be as simple as giving the elves trait some rampaging maintaince after X cities. There are multiple solutions to this suggestion.

That said, while I'm open to the idea of keeping the elves reduced in the number of cities, I'm not so sure about limiting other civs, apart from normal maintainance at least, not more then normally in civ (that is, organized helps to create larger empires, so leaders that have ruled large empires have a reasonable claim on that trait, also depending on what other traits they should have).

Perhaps after Armored Cavalry we could add:

Subjugation of Fell-Beasts (For Flying Nazgul Units)

- Only researchable by Evil Civs
- Grants ability to build Fell Beasts/Nazgul Units

Alliance with Great Eagles (For Great Eagle Units)

- Only researchable by Neutral & Good Civs
- Grants ability to build Great Eagle Units

I named them that way to also show the difference in Alignment.

The problem I have with those names (the same as for example 'Council of the Wise') is that it doesn't sound like a tech/innovation/etc. but as an action/building/project. I'm also not sure about whether a tech can grant a resource (without modifying the code that is). I like the place of the techs though.

Check out rise of mankind. They have resource appearance on the map linked with researching certain techs.

Also, they are the same as say Horseback Riding - just named different for Flavor purposes. If someone else can come up with a better name, don't worry, it won't offend me.

On second thought:

I will edit the post. It will just say that you are now able to build those units. We were talking about removing resources as requirements for certain units anyway after all.

On third thought ;):

Subjugation of Fell-Beasts does fit your discription. It is an innovation like Horseback Riding (Fell Beast Riding).

Alliance with Great Eagles does as well. It is the same as Alliances.

Perhaps both types of units, limited by Alignment could become available with Alliances. Rather late in the game due to their greater strength.

Limit both to 8 Units + 1 Hero:

8 Nazgul + The Witch King.
8 Great Eagles + Gwaihir or Thorondor (From: The Hobbit).

It's not the same for me ;) For example Alliances is some new innovation at some point in the techtree, Alliance with Great Eagles is one specific Alliance. I think I like technames to be more global/overarching, but that's a matter of preference. We will use yours, unless someone comes up with something that fits better.

Techs can be limited to allignment so you can only research something depending on the alignment. This will help to avoid the problem I think. Furthermore I would say that 8 eagles is quite a lot. Especially because they did not really play a big role, at least not in the later ages. If I remember my LotR correctly there weren't that many eagles involved.

There was a whole army of them at The Battle of Five Armies. There were quite a few at the Battle at The Black Gates at the end of the LOTR as well. They only reduced the number for the movie (CG expense and all).

Maybe you could have Alliance with the Eagles / Fell Beasts (or whatever) be one of those projects like FFH's Pact of the Nilhorn. You can limit projects by alignment too.

You know T F. That is a good idea. Fell-Beats (and thus Flying Nazgul) could become available upon the building of a Project if you have the other prerequisits. The same with gaining the Eagles.

A very good idea there.

Are we calling the Tech Tree finalized, or are we still discussing it. It would probably be easier for those modding to have a completed picture of what they are working with. This way they are not wasting their time on things that will get thrown out.

I realize we still have yet to assign units, bonuses, resources, etc. to them. We could start new threads for these topics.

I think we need to start specializing the threads for easier navigation. We're starting to go all over the place with our overflow of ideas. Not a bad thing, It'll just be easier with some organization for the Modders.

I could also start on some writing when we have things finalized if you want.

I think the tech tree needs to remain in discussion as long as we are discussing units, resources, wonders, etc. Everything is intertwined enough that you can't really mess with one thing without messing with the rest.

We do need to reorganize threads, yes.

Yeah thread specialization is a bit of a mess right now.

About the Techtree. I haven't completely figured out how to add the ages as techs without making the tree ugly as hell. Will try to have it up this weekend.

Thanks for the hard work Sengir. You are probably right T F.

Ok, so I made a liar out of myself and went ahead today.
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree2.png

The idea is that in order to advance to the next color you have to tech to the next age (bottom row) first. Note that not all techs of the previous era are required for advancing to the next age. I think more should be dropped and only the techs we feel really necessary for ending that era should be required.


Edit: Also, please comment on what tech you would place in what age. I held myself mostly to the list in the first post, but don't think it is set in stone.

It looks good to me. The only problem I have is still that pesky Council of Wises thing. Is that even a word?

I'm not trying to be offensive, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Perhaps you could explain the tech to me and I'll get a better understanding of it.

I haven't changed the others techs at all, just added the colours and the age-techs.

That said, I simply picked the tech from the list. I have no idea what we are going to do with it and think the name doesn't work well at all for a tech. I'll try to think of a better name/different tech at that place/drop it alltogether.

Ok, my suggestion regarding Council of Wises: drop the tech. We have a White Council wonder allready and I don't think this tech adds anything.

If it is causing that much of a problem for you, then I agree that it should be dropped.

It's not so much trouble, as that I can't think of anything that would fit (I assume the tech is meant to enable The White Council, but that can be done with treaties as well). It is a dead end tech atm, so it can be dropped without a problem (and brought back in later if necessary as well).

About the tech required to advance an age:
First age
- The Runes
- Jewelry
- Bronzeworking
- Fortification

Second age
- Diplomacy
- The Court
- Steel Weaponry

Third age
- Trade posts
- Fortress building
- History
- Professional Armies

Fourth age
- Machines
- Alliances
- Military Training

This is a more minimalist-list for advancing through the ages, which I like better as it leaves freedom to not research some techs

Also I noticed that we have the White Council as a tech as well, that should be dropped in my opinion, maybe signal fires as well and instead add a 'Long distance communications'-tech (though with a shorter name :p )

Going through the list again, I think I want a different name for Armored Cavalry as well, the rest is ok (armored cavalry is the name of the unit, not the name of the tech that would enable it)

Also I noticed that we have the White Council as a tech as well, that should be dropped in my opinion, maybe signal fires as well and instead add a 'Long distance communications'-tech (though with a shorter name )

Maybe call it "Beacon Hills"?

Good idea that.

As for the Armored Cavalry, how about:

Knighthood

This is what we have thus far:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Fishing:
- Requries: AGE OF THE STARS
Sailing:
- Requires: Fishing
Farming:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Hunting:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Domestication:
- Requires:: Farming or Hunting
Woodworking:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Stoneworking:
- Requires: Woodworking
Mining:
- Requires: Woodworking
Fortification:
- Requires: Domestication or Stoneworking & Woodworking
Alphabet:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Copperworking:
- Requires: Mining
Jewlery:
- Requires: Copperworking
Bronzeworking:
- Requires: Copperworking

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Sailing, Domestication, Fortification, Stoneworking, Alphabet, Jewelry & Bronzeworking)

Horseback Riding:
- Requries: Domestication
Trade:
- Requires: Sailing, Alphabet &/or Farming or Horseback Riding
Stirrup:
- Requires: Horseback Riding
Archery:
- Requires: Fortification
Masonry:
- Requires: Fortification or Stoneworking
Tradition Keeping:
- Requries: Alphabet
Shipbuilding:
- Requires: Woodworking, Sailing &/or Trade
Diplomacy:
- Requires: The Court
Mounted Combat:
- Requires: Stirrup
Bowyers:
- Requires: Archery
Construction:
- Requires: Masonry
Monarchy:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping
Poetry:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Jewelry
Smithing:
- Requires: Bronzeworking
Ironworking:
- Requries: Bronzeworking
The Court:
- Requires: Masonry &/or Monarchy
Healing:
- Requires: Monarchy
Music:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Poetry
Armor:
- Requires: Smithing
Steel Weaponry:
- Requries: Smithing &/or Ironworking

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Shipbuilding, Diplomacy, The Court, Music, Healing, Armor & Steel Weaponry)

Navigation:
- Requires: Shipguilding
Treaties:
- Requries: Diplomacy
Naval Warfare:
- Requries: Navigation
Commerce:
- Requires: Navigation & Diplomacy or Treaties
Cavalry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Sharpshooting:
- Requires: Bowyers
Heraldry:
- Requries: The Court, Healing &/or Music
Trade Posts:
- Requires: Commerce
Chivalry:
- Requries: Cavalry Tactics & The Court
Marksmanship:
- Requires: Sharpshooting
Engineering:
- Requries: Construction
Literature:
- Requires: Poetry
Professional Armies:
- Requires: The Court, Heraldry & Armor or Steel Weapons
Mithril Working:
- Requries: Iron Working & Smithing
Outposts:
- Requries: Naval Warfare &/or Trade Posts
Fortress Building:
- Requries: Engineering
History:
- Requires: Literature &/or Heraldry
Seige Warfare:
- Requires: Construction & Professional Armies
Infantry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Naval Warfare, Outposts, Fortress Building, History & Professional Armies)

Naval Tactics:
- Requries: Strategy & Naval Warfare
Great Trade Routes:
- Requries: Outposts &/or Trade Posts
Ballistics:
- Requires: Seige Warfare & Marksmanship or Fortress Building
Strategy:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Advanced Weaponry:
- Requires: Mithril Working &/or Infantry Tactics
Machines:
- Requries: Specialized Smithing & Great Trade Routes
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
- Requires: Heraldry, Chivalry & Military Training
Vassalage:
- Requires: Fortress Building &/or Strategy
Stewardship:
- Requires: History, Monarchy & Vassalage
Alliances:
- Requires: Vassalage
Military Training:
- Requires: Vassalage &/or Composed Armies
Composed Armies:
- Requires: Strategy &/or Advanced Weaponry
Weapon Mastery:
- Requires: Heraldry, Military Training & Advanced Weaponry
*Signal Fires (Strategic Communication):
- Requries: Alliances
*The White Council:
- Requires: Alliances
Total War:
- Requires: Alliances & Military Training or Weapon Mastery

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Machines, *Signal Fires (Strategic Communication) & Total War)

Specialized Smithing:
- Requires: Weapon Mastery
The Peace:
- Requires: The White Council or Total War
Age Of Men:
- Requries: Machines & Specialized Smithing

------------------------------------------------------------------

* Name Change Pending, or Possible Removal

Armored Cavalry now renamed - Mastery Of Mounted Warfare - as discussed

Council Of Wises removed - as discussed


Now we need to put in what each requires and what each provides in the way of Bonuses, Resources and Units.

The arrows denotate or-requirements, not and-requirements (those are listed in brackets beneath). So Domestication needs either Farming or Hunting, but Fortification needs Domestication or Stoneworking AND woodworking. Also, as I've outlined above, I would like to keep the required techs for advancing an age as low as possible to give players freedom to beeline and not tech parts of the tree.

About Beacon Hills, I don't think I like that name. It's still more of a building than an advancement. I was thinking more along the lines of 'Strategic Communication' or something similar. It's requirements would be Alliances OR Military Training and it would be a AND requirement for the Fourth Age.

I noticed I made a mistake and fixed it. I'll redo the requirements later.

I suppose Strategic Communication could work. I'll make a note in the list.

Hmm, misssed the suggestion for Armored Cavalry. Knighthood is good in principal, but isn't it a bit too synonimous with Chivalry? :dunno:

Yeah, I was thinking that myself. It was the only thing I could come up with at the time.

Maybe:

Cavalry Mastery

Mastery of Mounted Warfare

Mounted Warfare Mastery

Since we have weapon mastery, the mastery suggestion makes sense. Now which one to pick:

Cavalry Mastery: short is good, but it sounds a bit convoluted.
Mastery of Mounted Warfare: A bit long, but I like this the best of the three. It says exactly what it should be and sounds good.
Mounted Warfare Mastery: Mastery of Mounted Warfare has a better ring to it IMHO.

Maybe
Mastery of Horses: no, they have mastered horses a long time ago, this is quite some levels above that.
Mounted Mastery: well it's shorter, but ehm, it sounds stupid.

I like Mastery of Mounted Warfare, let succinctness be damned.

Alrighty then. I'll make the change in the list. I am glad you like it. That one was especially hard to come up with for some reason.

Agreed with all above.

I think 'The Runes' needs to be changed to 'Writing', since neither the Sarati (first script ever) nor the Tengwar technically counted as 'runes'.

You're right about that. Didn't remember that and looked it up; it's definately an alphabet, not runes. Maybe change The Runes to Writing (or Alphabet) and add The Runes somewhere else (or drop it alltogether, but I think I would like them in)

I'll put in The Runes as Alphabet, since we have Literature, Poetry and Music later on.

Can we please discuss which techs are needed for advancing an age?
About the tech required to advance an age:
First age
- The Runes
- Jewelry
- Bronzeworking
- Fortification

Second age
- Diplomacy
- The Court
- Steel Weaponry

Third age
- Trade posts
- Fortress building
- History
- Professional Armies

Fourth age
- Machines
- Alliances
- Military Training
- Strategic Communications

This is a more minimalist-list for advancing through the ages, which I like better as it leaves freedom to not research some techs

I'll put in The Runes as Alphabet, since we have Literature, Poetry and Music later on.

Still don't like it really, since Tengwar is not technically an alphabet. [/langnerd]

I kind of think we need more necessary techs, otherwise you can just research a few and have a lot of unreasearched techs left when you advance (unless there's a lot of prerequisites and stuff).

I have yet to finish putting in the prerequisites based on what Sengir has mentioned. I got caught up in the city lists. I'll get back to it, I promise. Personally, I like the thought of having all techs before advancing, but I like the list.

Unless we want to have a large amount of Techs, then we are not going to be able to continuously add techs and some of us are going to be disappointed. We need to decide how large of a Tech Tree we really want here.

I only checked Sarati which is the first and a alphabet, if I understood that text right.


About the techs: you won't be able to leave everything behind, but some military techs can be postponed for a long time if we use the suggestions I made (for example, the horses line can be skipped altogether, or the archery line. It can make sense for some civs, but for others there will be incentive enough to follow that line anyway).

I wouldn't mind some more techs, as long as we can think of proper names for them and not simply add techs for the sake of adding techs.

EDIT: See below post.

I finished puting in all the requirements.

It now stands as thus:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Fishing:
- Requries: AGE OF THE STARS
Sailing:
- Requires: Fishing
Farming:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Hunting:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Domestication:
- Requires:: Farming or Hunting
Woodworking:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Stoneworking:
- Requires: Woodworking
Mining:
- Requires: Woodworking
Fortification:
- Requires: Domestication or Stoneworking & Woodworking
Alphabet:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Copperworking:
- Requires: Mining
Jewlery:
- Requires: Copperworking
Bronzeworking:
- Requires: Copperworking

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Sailing, Domestication, Fortification, Stoneworking, Alphabet, Jewelry & Bronzeworking)

Horseback Riding:
- Requries: Domestication
Trade:
- Requires: Sailing, Alphabet &/or Farming or Horseback Riding
Stirrup:
- Requires: Horseback Riding
Archery:
- Requires: Fortification
Masonry:
- Requires: Fortification or Stoneworking
Tradition Keeping:
- Requries: Alphabet
Shipbuilding:
- Requires: Woodworking, Sailing &/or Trade
Diplomacy:
- Requires: The Court
Mounted Combat:
- Requires: Stirrup
Bowyers:
- Requires: Archery
Construction:
- Requires: Masonry
Monarchy:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping
Poetry:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Jewelry
Smithing:
- Requires: Bronzeworking
Ironworking:
- Requries: Bronzeworking
The Court:
- Requires: Masonry &/or Monarchy
Healing:
- Requires: Monarchy
Music:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Poetry
Armor:
- Requires: Smithing
Steel Weaponry:
- Requries: Smithing &/or Ironworking

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Shipbuilding, Diplomacy, The Court, Music, Healing, Armor & Steel Weaponry)

Navigation:
- Requires: Shipguilding
Treaties:
- Requries: Diplomacy
Naval Warfare:
- Requries: Navigation
Commerce:
- Requires: Navigation & Diplomacy or Treaties
Cavalry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Sharpshooting:
- Requires: Bowyers
Heraldry:
- Requries: The Court, Healing &/or Music
Trade Posts:
- Requires: Commerce
Chivalry:
- Requries: Cavalry Tactics & The Court
Marksmanship:
- Requires: Sharpshooting
Engineering:
- Requries: Construction
Literature:
- Requires: Poetry
Professional Armies:
- Requires: The Court, Heraldry & Armor or Steel Weapons
Mithril Working:
- Requries: Iron Working & Smithing
Outposts:
- Requries: Naval Warfare &/or Trade Posts
Fortress Building:
- Requries: Engineering
History:
- Requires: Literature &/or Heraldry
Seige Warfare:
- Requires: Construction & Professional Armies
Infantry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Naval Warfare, Outposts, Fortress Building, History & Professional Armies)

Naval Tactics:
- Requries: Strategy & Naval Warfare
Great Trade Routes:
- Requries: Outposts &/or Trade Posts
Ballistics:
- Requires: Seige Warfare & Marksmanship or Fortress Building
Strategy:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Advanced Weaponry:
- Requires: Mithril Working &/or Infantry Tactics
Machines:
- Requries: Specialized Smithing & Great Trade Routes
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
- Requires: Heraldry, Chivalry & Military Training
Vassalage:
- Requires: Fortress Building &/or Strategy
Stewardship:
- Requires: History, Monarchy & Vassalage
Alliances:
- Requires: Vassalage
Military Training:
- Requires: Vassalage &/or Composed Armies
Composed Armies:
- Requires: Strategy &/or Advanced Weaponry
Weapon Mastery:
- Requires: Heraldry, Military Training & Advanced Weaponry
*Signal Fires (Strategic Communication):
- Requries: Alliances
*The White Council:
- Requires: Alliances
Total War:
- Requires: Alliances & Military Training or Weapon Mastery

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: Machines, *Signal Fires (Strategic Communication) & Total War)

Specialized Smithing:
- Requires: Weapon Mastery
The Peace:
- Requires: The White Council or Total War
Age Of Men:
- Requries: Machines & Specialized Smithing


We still have to make decisions on:

The White Council: Leave In or Remove
Signal Fires (Strategic Communication): Which are we using?
Alphabet has now replaced The Runes.

Well, we could do:

Runes
Alphabet
Writing

In regards to keeping The Runes or Runes. Runes in AGE OF THE STARS, Alphabet in AGE OF THE STARS - with RUNES as a prerequisite, Writing in SECOND AGE OF THE SUN with alphabet as a prerequisite - Leads to POETRY.

The first techs of an age should require the applicable age (at least I thought so). I know it's not in my schema, but I was a bit lazy ;)

Decisions (well, at least my opinions):
Remove 'The White Council', it should be a wonder/project not a tech.
Signal Fires <> Strategic Communications: I like Strategic Communications better as I've outlined elsewhere.
Alphabet and related techs: :dunno: this is T_F's pet peeve, so let him decide :D


Do you want me to whip up another image xmen? I will at least wait with it until we have a decision about Alphabet.


Also if someone has another tech-suggestion: now would be a really good time to mention it ;)

If you want to go ahead with an image of what we have, then that is great. I would suggest waiting until we get a final decision regarding the Alphabet dilema first however (less work for you then).

I will update the Tech tree with the Removal of The White Council and renaming of Signal fires to Strategic Communications immediately after I post this.

As I mentioned before. The only things that really concern me is what abilities civs will start with:

such as the ability to create roads, etc., since that is not on the list. Also remember that we can always up date the Tech Tree with further releases down the road.

History now stands as Thus:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Fishing:
- Requries: AGE OF THE STARS
Sailing:
- Requires: Fishing
Farming:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Hunting:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Domestication:
- Requires:: Farming or Hunting
Woodworking:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Stoneworking:
- Requires: Woodworking
Mining:
- Requires: Woodworking
Fortification:
- Requires: Domestication or Stoneworking & Woodworking
Writing:
- Requires: Stoneworking
Copperworking:
- Requires: Mining
Jewlery:
- Requires: Copperworking &/or Writing
Bronzeworking:
- Requires: Copperworking

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS, Sailing, Domestication, Fortification, Stoneworking, Writing, Jewelry & Bronzeworking

Horseback Riding:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Domestication
Trade:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Sailing, Writing &/or Farming or Horseback Riding
Stirrup:
- Requires: Horseback Riding
Archery:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Fortification
Masonry:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Fortification or Stoneworking
Tradition Keeping:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Writing
Shipbuilding:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Woodworking, Sailing &/or Trade
Diplomacy:
- Requires: The Court
Mounted Combat:
- Requires: Stirrup
Bowyers:
- Requires: Archery
Construction:
- Requires: Masonry
Monarchy:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping
Poetry:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Tradition Keeping &/or Jewelry
Smithing:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Bronzeworking
Ironworking:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Bronzeworking
The Court:
- Requires: Masonry &/or Monarchy
Healing:
- Requires: Monarchy
Music:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Poetry
Armor:
- Requires: Smithing
Steel Weaponry:
- Requries: Smithing &/or Ironworking

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Shipbuilding, Diplomacy, The Court, Music, Healing, Armor & Steel Weaponry

Navigation:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Shipguilding
Treaties:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Diplomacy
Naval Warfare:
- Requries: Navigation
Commerce:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Navigation & Diplomacy or Treaties
Cavalry Tactics:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Professional Armies
Sharpshooting:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Bowyers
Heraldry:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, The Court, Healing &/or Music
Trade Posts:
- Requires: Commerce
Chivalry:
- Requries: Cavalry Tactics & The Court
Marksmanship:
- Requires: Sharpshooting
Engineering:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Construction
Literature:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Poetry
Professional Armies:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, The Court, Heraldry & Armor or Steel Weapons
Mithril Working:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Iron Working & Smithing
Outposts:
- Requries: Naval Warfare &/or Trade Posts
Fortress Building:
- Requries: Engineering
History:
- Requires: Literature &/or Heraldry
Seige Warfare:
- Requires: Construction & Professional Armies
Infantry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Council Of Wises:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Literacy

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Naval Warfare, Outposts, Council Of Wises, Fortress Building, History & Professional Armies

Naval Tactics:
- Requries: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Strategy & Naval Warfare
Great Trade Routes:
- Requries: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Outposts or Trade Posts
Ballistics:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Seige Warfare & Marksmanship or Fortress Building
Strategy:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Professional Armies
Advanced Weaponry:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Mithril Working or Infantry Tactics
Machines:
- Requries: Specialized Smithing & Great Trade Routes
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Heraldry, Chivalry & Military Training
Vassalage:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Fortress Building or Strategy
Stewardship:
- Requires: Vassalage & History or Monarchy
Alliances:
- Requires: Vassalage
Military Training:
- Requires: Vassalage &/or Composed Armies
Composed Armies:
- Requires: Strategy &/or Advanced Weaponry
Weapon Mastery:
- Requires: Heraldry, Military Training & Advanced Weaponry
Strategic Communication:
- Requries: Alliances
Total War:
- Requires: Alliances & Military Training or Weapon Mastery

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Machines, Strategic Communication & Total War

Specialized Smithing:
- Requires: FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN & Weapon Mastery
The Peace:
- Requires: FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN & Total War
Age Of Men:
- Requries: Machines & Specialized Smithing

I don't think I disagree on anything in the list (except the alphabet thing), though an image would help me make sure ^_^

About the whole alphabet thing, in linguist-speak both Tengwar and Sarati are abjads, i.e. systems with full letters for consonants and symbols that go next to or above or below the letters to indicate vowels. (They're like Arabic, except Arabic generally leaves the vowels out.) Alphabets are technically systems with vowel and consonant symbols that don't have any fundamental difference.

I'd prefer it to be called Writing, for that reason and because having a specific tech Alphabet as an improvement to just Writing is kind of Western-centric. Most non-alphabets work perfectly fine for whatever language they're used with - Arabic works fine for Arabic, the Chinese character system actually slightly improves its intelligibility (though by a tiny amount), and the kana for Japanese work perfectly. That's always annoyed me about Civ4. [/rant]

^^ didn't know that. Explained that way, writing does make more sense as name. What do you think about Runes? Should that be put in as a seperate tech or should Writing be meant for all forms of writing?

I like the tree as it stands now.

As do I. Unless you want to put in a specific Tech for each races differnent version of writing and communication then I don't think it needs to be tweaked too much.

3 Ideas:

- Let the list stand as is.

- Add Writing for after Alphabet.

- Replace Alphabet and have Writing right from the start.

I think T_F is the most qualified to decide this and I will follow his lead in this.

I'm not against the "Age Techs". But I'd make specific techs for each "race". For example, humans should get good ones, but elves only regular ones.

About the elven units, in the start we could not have different graphic sets for each unit, so we were going to have different units for all civs. The elven units were allways more powerful, but they were also very expensive - so you'd have few, but they would be powerful yet. When we started to use generic units with different graphics, my best idea was to use promos and civics: for example, each race has a unique promo that makes it's units unique, and humans get civics that later on give them faster unit building (and the unit costs increase drastically). The age techs could help with it...

I think we should have Writing instead of Alphabet, and continue it into the various writing-related techs. Writing I think covers both Runes and Tengwar.

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about, Elda King. So you have the sort of Race promotion on generic units that mess with its stats? Wouldn't it be easier to just have a bunch of UUs than to try to get a promotion that changes enough? Plus UUs let you have better names for units available.

Having one UU for every unit is not the ideal, but it's weird having some elves that aren't... well, elven. All elves should be different from their human counterparts. Also, you could have better names for some units if they were UUs, but not all - you'd end up with Elven Spearmen and such.

Post #63 is now updated with newest changes.

* newest changes = Replaced Alphabet with Writing throughout the Tech Tree.

I will try to get the new image out sometime tomorrow.

I'm not sure about specific techs for specific races, as it can also be solved by the same techs providing different benefits for different races.

The first techs of an age should require the applicable age (at least I thought so). I know it's not in my schema, but I was a bit lazy ;)

:blush: Fixed! (I think I got what you meant. I may have misinterpreted though).

I'm not sure about specific techs for specific races, as it can also be solved by the same techs providing different benefits for different races.

That seems like it would work fine. Maybe one or two alignment-specific techs would be good though.

The different techs could be an interesting idea. Sengir also has a good point however.

:blush: Fixed! (I think I got what you meant. I may have misinterpreted though).

It's not completely what I meant, but I'll put a picture up sometime soon (it being clearer then a thousand words, especially words of mine)

I thought you might mean somethung else. Darn it. Befor making anymore tweaks to my list, I'll wait and see what your image looks like.

Ok, here's another one:
http://zenodesign.nl/ardamod/techtree3.png

I changed The Runes to writing, dropped The White Council, changed Signal Fires to Strategic Communications, added Age-tech requirement for the first techs of each age (civs cannot proceed researching for techs for the next age if they haven't got the required age-tech, this was probably allready known by all (I think) but it needs to be spelled out in the techtree to avoid mistakes.)


Also, I haven't changed the requirements for the age-techs to my suggested minimalist approach for two reasons: We haven't discussed it quite yet, and I'm not certain of it myself. One part of me wants to leave as much freedom as possible, the other part says that a lot of things are really essential to have before advancing to the next age.

:goodjob:

Great list. More work for me :D. I'll have to make the moddifications to my Text list this afternoon however as I have to leave now.

Thanks Sengir.

Good work! Like it. Now we figure out what all the techs do exactly.

Oh... do we have to do that as well... :D

I noticed that you still have Council of Wises in there. I thought you were taking that out. I put it back in my list though for you. Also, you still have Armored Cavalry - I believe we renamed it Mastery Of Mounted Warfare, I could be wrong though. You also have Signal Fires still listed as a requirement for the FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN (though it is corrected in the Tree itself).

Text List updated: Page 4, Post #63.

I thought that Council of Wises would be renamed to something like councels or pacts or something and that that would be the tech to enable the white council or the shadow council (but I might remember it wrong, don't want to read to far back :))

Crap, I thought I had it all fixed. No Council of the wises should be out or renamed and Armored Cavalry should indeed be Mastery of Mounted Warfare. Signal Fires should indeed be fixed as well. Will put up a new version tomorrow morning for correctness sake.

I f you could explain what Council of Wises actually is to represent, then perhaps we could come up with another name for it so you can keep it in.

I'm not sure what Council of Wises is meant to represent, as I simply picked it from Elda Kings list. I think however it is meant to represent the coming of the wizards to Middle Earth. I'm not even sure that this should be implemented by a tech, (actually I think it shouldn't but maybe the wonder/heroes should be enabled by the tech.).

If it represents the wizards coming to Middle Earth, what was the reason they were sent? I can't remember it from the top of my head and haven't got my books with me atm. That might be a source for a better name.

They were sent to help advise and guide the people of Middle-Earth against Sauron.

If that is what it is, perhaps it could be renamed to:

Guidance Of The Istari

That is what they were called, the 5 that came:

1 White: Head of the Order - Saruman - Later Falls.

1 Grey: Gandalf (Mithrandir) - Later becomes White.

1 Brown: Radagast - Loses his Path, but doesn not become corrupt by the shadow.

2 Blue: They went East and South and were never heard from again as far as I have found out.

I can try and find out their real names if people are interested.

Yeah, Istari was the name I was looking for, but Guidance of the Istari isn't something one can tech right? It's more something one can get (from events? wonder/project?). I'm still kinda struggling with technames as you can see. I like Guidance of the Istari much better then Council of Wises, but still isn't as abstract as I would like to see. It's probably just me though...

Unrelated note, I always liked Olorin best of the names Gandalf had.

IDK if it should be a tech, probably shouldn't. Would it be a wonder or project or something? 'Grant top 5 good civs 1 Istari unit each' or something?

And agreed on Olorin. (Go maiar!)

Well, technologies are an accumulation of Knowledge, correct? That is what the Guidance is. However, I am in no way against renaming or removing it. First, we need to actually decide what it represents however. :crazyeye:

:goodjob:

Here comes xmen510 with an "All-New, All-Different" Tech Tree list. Yes, xmen510 does indeed love his lists!

This time we have the Tech Tree List with No Prerequisites. A Blank Tech Tree. I have done this so that we can start assigning Bonuses. Units, Buildings, etc., once we are ready. Some will be easy, some, not so easy, especially at the start.

So here we go. Where there is a hyphen, we need to add something. If you want, we can start with only 1 type of things at first. Appearance of resource, Bonus it grants, Unit assigned, etc., just let me know. If you want, I can start it, or we can wait until things are finalized to make it easier. I would suggest the waiting. I just did this list to make it easier on us later on.

Once we have finished on set of Bonuses, I can then add this list to the Tech Prerequisite List, and so on, and so on. Until it is finished.

AGE OF THE STARS:
-

Fishing:
-
Sailing:
-
Farming:
-
Hunting:
-
Domestication:
-
Woodworking:
-
Stoneworking:
-
Mining:
-
Fortification:
-
Writing:
-
Copperworking:
-
Jewlery:
-
Bronzeworking:
-

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Horseback Riding:
-
Trade:
-
Stirrup:
-
Archery:
-
Masonry:
-
Tradition Keeping:
-
Shipbuilding:
-
Diplomacy:
-
Mounted Combat:
-
Bowyers:
-
Construction:
-
Monarchy:
-
Poetry:
-
Smithing:
-
Ironworking:
-
The Court:
-
Healing:
-
Music:
-
Armor:
-
Steel Weaponry:
-

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Navigation:
-
Treaties:
-
Naval Warfare:
-
Commerce:
-
Cavalry Tactics:
-
Sharpshooting:
-
Heraldry:
-
Trade Posts:
-
Chivalry:
-
Marksmanship:
-
Engineering:
-
Literature:
-
Professional Armies:
-
Mithril Working:
-
Outposts:
-
Fortress Building:
-
History:
-
Seige Warfare:
-
Infantry Tactics:
-
Council Of Wises:
-

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Naval Tactics:
-
Great Trade Routes:
-
Ballistics:
-
Strategy:
-
Advanced Weaponry:
-
Machines:
-
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
-
Vassalage:
-
Stewardship:
-
Alliances:
-
Military Training:
-
Composed Armies:
-
Weapon Mastery:
-
Strategic Communication:
-
Total War:
-

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Specialized Smithing:
-
The Peace:
-
Age Of Men:
-

I'm not sure about specific techs for specific races, as it can also be solved by the same techs providing different benefits for different races.
I think that sometimes it simply makes more sense. For example, Dwarves could go further on mining techs (gaining greater bonuses, but not for free), and Númenor could have more naval and exploration techs. Some techs don't make sense at all for some civs - like Council of Wises for the shadow. Civs like Númenor would have way too many ships for a single tech, and having a lot of naval techs that do nothing for anyone but they could research would simply mess the AI.

About Council of Wises: actually, it was intended for enabling one civic... It represented the benevolent ruling as that of Rivendell or such, and would also allow the White Council wonder. If I recall well, there was one "Wizards" tech for the coming of the Istari (but then, we didn't have events at that time).

I still prefer the name Runes. It gives a more ME-feeling...

One thing: remember that the Men didn't exist until the First Age, but the Elves were already far advanced at the Age of Stars (they had lived in Valinor for a long while). The Age of Stars was simply a name for the "pre-history", an age full of free techs for elves (remember, they had more expensive units) and things that differentiated all civs (the Noldor were great jewelcrafters but poor shipbuilders, and the Teleri were the inverse).

Lots of good ideas there Elda. We should take a lot of Elda said under serious consideration there. It makes a lot of sense. Perhaps we could take a look at what we have done and see about some of this. I like the idea of certain races going further in certain techs. Such as Men could go further in construction.

I think the Coming of the Istari should deffinately be a Project. Council of Wises allowing you to build the White Council would be good to have. Also limit it to "Good" Aligned Civ only.

Lots of ideas there. Perhaps if the Map is large enough for Arda and or Random we could make sure all Eldar Civs start on the "New World" (Arda) continent and the other Civs start on the "Old World" (Middle-Earth). This way the Elves could start with all Age of the Stars Techs without influencing the other Civs to begin with. Perhaps those ideas are good for scenarios too.

Runes could be a Swarven specific Tech.

Lots of great ideas there.

For Council of Wises or whatever we could diversify it into just Councils, and could allow some evil-versioned council civic (in the vein of Undercouncil, but not necessarily a UN-type thing) to Evil people.

I like Elda King's ideas for civ-specific techs. So Dwarves (and quite possibly Noldor) would get mining stuff, Numenor and the Teleri get ship stuff (likely different ship stuff, but it might be interesting if they got just a separate Seafaring branch with the same basic stuff), um... Sindar get forest bonus stuff, Rohan gets horsemanship stuff... what about Arnor and Gondor and the rest of the Men?

For the Age of Stars, we may have to just overlook that (like plain Civ4 does on a normal random map game). We could do an RFC thing where all men civs appear later than everybody else, but that doesn't seem like it would be easy pull off in a balanced way.

If we do have all the Elves start in Valinor, it makes it WAY harder to get them to interact with anyone other than each other. You would have to make abandoning all cities on a continent and getting a bunch of ships with settlers possible, and it would be pretty hard to get the AI to do that. Which is a bit of a shame since it be an awesome game-altering event, but still...

For Runes (here we go again), AFAIK the Sindar actually invented them. I still think Writing is the best choice (and even if we split it into Tengwar and Runes, that's two techs you have to research, and what about Men?). Yes it does feel more ME-y, but it's not fully representative of what it intends to represent.
On second thought, splitting it is an interesting idea. It would represent a civ's choice of official script (once you research one you can't get the other), and each would have different bonuses attached. Hmm, that might be really interesting.

I think that sometimes it simply makes more sense. For example, Dwarves could go further on mining techs (gaining greater bonuses, but not for free), and Númenor could have more naval and exploration techs. Some techs don't make sense at all for some civs - like Council of Wises for the shadow. Civs like Númenor would have way too many ships for a single tech, and having a lot of naval techs that do nothing for anyone but they could research would simply mess the AI.

I don't have any problem with a civ-specific tech, my point was that it is unnecessary to have two variants on the same tech, one for good, one for evil, with the only reason to split them being that it would enable some evil/good things (especially when there can be a neutrally named tech that can do either depending on alignment). It also provides problems if civs fall from grace (good to evil), which would cause them to have to research some techs again, to get the evil equivalent of what they could allready do when they were still good (I would argue that the turning to evil allowed them to use the same tech in an evil way, whereas they used it for good before. Other arguments can be made as well though. It would also cause unnecessary clutter on the techtree.
However having techs that can only be researched by specific civs will give a lot of uniques to those civs and will enhance replay value, so I'm in favor of those.

I hope this rambling makes sense, I wanted to try to clear up my position, but I might have made it a bit harder to understand in the progress :crazyeye:

For Council of Wises or whatever we could diversify it into just Councils, and could allow some evil-versioned council civic (in the vein of Undercouncil, but not necessarily a UN-type thing) to Evil people.
I suppose that would work.

I like Elda King's ideas for civ-specific techs. So Dwarves (and quite possibly Noldor) would get mining stuff, Numenor and the Teleri get ship stuff (likely different ship stuff, but it might be interesting if they got just a separate Seafaring branch with the same basic stuff), um... Sindar get forest bonus stuff, Rohan gets horsemanship stuff... what about Arnor and Gondor and the rest of the Men?
I agree, though we don't need a civ-specific tech for everyone (and some civs might get more then one)

For the Age of Stars, we may have to just overlook that (like plain Civ4 does on a normal random map game). We could do an RFC thing where all men civs appear later than everybody else, but that doesn't seem like it would be easy pull off in a balanced way.
I agree, though for scenarios we might/will come back to this idea.


On second thought, splitting it is an interesting idea. It would represent a civ's choice of official script (once you research one you can't get the other), and each would have different bonuses attached. Hmm, that might be really interesting.
Splitting might work and will add a new element to the game (for example: techtrading only enabled for civs with the same writing-tech, have a wonder that enables a civ to communicate as if it had both techs, etc.), but will require a lot of discussion and balancing. If we are going this way, we should open a discussion thread for this specifically. We should also consider putting this of untill a later release.

I think that would be great for a later release. Remember, lets focus on getting this thing working and out for playtesting.

Yeah, it does sound like a later release idea.

For Dwarves you could have:

Mithril Weapons: adds bonus to all units attack values if you then build a Mithril Weaponsmith.

Mithril Armor: add bonus to all units defence values if you then build a Mithril Armorer.

Expert Mining: build a greater forge or increases the output of mines.

Just a few examples.

I would do Mithril Smithing, as weapons and armor are a commodity instead. However I don't think we should limit Mithril to the dwarves. Or are you suggesting that Mithril (whatever) allows bonuses on top of the Mithril bonus?

I like Expert Mining, maybe Tunneling as well

I would do Mithril Smithing, as weapons and armor are a commodity instead. However I don't think we should limit Mithril to the dwarves. Or are you suggesting that Mithril (whatever) allows bonuses on top of the Mithril bonus


Mithril Working would perhaps only allow the Mining ability (bigger production bonus then Iron), but not give the bonuses / or maybe give smaller bonuses to units.

Then Mithril Smithing (Which sounds better by the way :goodjob:), would add extra Bonuses for the Dwarves. They were the Mithril experts after all.

I think I would have Mithril Smithing allow a Mithril Weaponsmith (or similar) building, which would give a free promo. That way we can have the 'regular' Mithril promo for everybody and an advanced mithril promo for the Dwarves (but only if they have built the building. I saw in the list with variables that it is also possible to have a building give a promo if a unit moves into a city with that building, making it not necessary to have that building in all your cities.)

Oh! That sounds like a great idea. It could allow 2 Expensive (National Wonders, this way you can only have 1 of each) Buildings to be built. 1 For a Defence Bonus and 1 For an Attack Bonus:

Mithril Weaponsmith (Building / National Wonder)
Mithril Armorer (Building / National Wonder)

Just a few more ideas!

Elves:

Forest Preservation (don't like the name): Allows only elves to build the Forest Preserve Improvemnt.

Elven Jewel Crafting: Jeweler Building; +25% Commerce, +1 Production (something like that)

Isengard:

Industry: Saruman's Industry (National Wonder); +25% Production in the City it is built, +1 Unhealthyness.

Uruk Breeding: Uruk Units: +10% attack vs. Rohirrim units

Mordor/Angband/Angmar: Elven Corruption: Required to build Orc Units. All Orc Units have +10% attack vs. Elves (Quenya).

I like a lot of these ideas, especially the unique techs for civs or groups of civs. I will see if I can find out if this is already possible in the FFH2 framework or if we have to do it another way. I know techs can be restricted to allignment but per civ I'lll try to find out.
The extra bonus with mithril with a national wonder is great :goodjob:. The other ideas from xmen510: I like them although for the elves we have to see if we want this because if we also go for the FFH2 version of the elves (they can build improvements in forests without chopping them e.a. mine in a forest or cottage etc) than maybe this is already a big enough bonus.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that ability of the Elves. Thanks for the reminder Berenthor!

The jewelcrafting building should be a Noldor (maybe just Fëanorian) UB I think, not for all Elves. And we can test it, but being able to build and leave forests may be quite an advantage.

And you can restrict techs by alignment I think, but I know you can restrict them by at least state religion - FFH does.

That would be good to. Perhaps 1 or 2 for each Religion.

You can restrict techs by religion and allignment in FFH2 for sure. I have to see if by civ or group of civs is also possible. I think it is possible since the Lanun have an extra tech to start with that the rest can not research, but I'm not sure how this is implemented. I have a feeling this only works because it is given at startup and that the tech is just non-researchable. This is not what we want. I'll look into this as soon as I can.

You can restrict techs by religion and allignment in FFH2 for sure. I have to see if by civ or group of civs is also possible. I think it is possible since the Lanun have an extra tech to start with that the rest can not research, but I'm not sure how this is implemented. I have a feeling this only works because it is given at startup and that the tech is just non-researchable. This is not what we want. I'll look into this as soon as I can.

If nothing else, it can be made to work as we want, just have a civ-specific tech given to each civ at the start of the game which is required for researching the other civ-specific techs. Not the best solution, but it will work.

Yeah that is true. Maybe not the most elegant solution but definetely a good one. On the other hand this may actually be the best and fastest solution to try. Some techs can than also be given to more civs.

Indeed. We can always make a better system for a later release.

I also found this little gem in the xml files. It's not in use atm as far as I can tell, but we can use it to disable techs for some civs and leave them open for others (at least that's what I think it does, it isn't from FFH however, but from BtS, so I could find it in the modders guide. I'm reasonably sure about it though).


<DisableTechs>
</DisableTechs>

Cool, I didn't know that was there. That should make life sooooo much easier. Great find :goodjob:.

Alright. Lets try to organize this a bit. Everyone go back over your recent posts regarding the inclusion of Racial/Civ based and Alignment based Techs. After you have done this, then organize your suggestions like so:

Core Tech Tree:

-
-
-

Race/Civ Techs:

- Dwarven: Longbeards: Shaft Mining, Mithril Smithing
- Dwarven: Broadbeams & Firebeards: Expert Mining
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Feanor: Gem Cutting
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Fingolfin: Leadership
- Quendi: Vanyar: Ancient Lore (the only universities available?)
- Quendi: Teleri: Great Travels
- Quendi: Sindarin: Nature Empathy
- Angband: Elven Corruption
- Mordor: Desert Survival
- Angmar: Coruption of the Dead (Barrow-Wights)
- Isengard: Industry, Uruk Breeding
- Rohirrim: Culture of Horses/Horseback Culture
- Dunlendings: Survival
- Haradrim: Mumakil Training, Pirating?
- Easterling: Charioteering
- Numenor: Mariner Traditions
- Gondor: Advanced Construction
- Arnor: Watchtower Fortification
- Northmen:

Alignment Techs:

- Evil: Slavery
- Neutral: Cultural Tolerance
- Good:

Religious Techs: - requires correct Alignment/Race/Civ

- Good: Light of Aman
- Dwarves: Teachings of Aulë
- Neutral: Guidance of the Valar
- Shadow: Corruption of Melkor

This way we can start going over suggestions and start figuring out where in the Tech Tree we will have to implement this stuff. We have the Core Tech Tree fairly done now, however, if you have further suggestions then apply as above.

We will then make a finalized version of the Tech Tree and start applying the Bonuses, Units, Buildings, etc. to them.

Thanks.

I have included the Dwarven: Mithril Smithing Tech discussed earlier and my own suggestions as examples.

EDIT: forgot the word techs for religious.

My suggestions:

Core Tech Tree: fine as it stands

Race/Civ Techs:

- Khuzdul: Longbeards: something with mining, agreed on needing mithril-working
- Khuzdul: Broadbeams & Firebeards: some mining thing, but enough to be equal to the Longbeards
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Feanor: something jewel-making, or maybe metalworking
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Fingolfin: something involving metalworking
- Quendi: Vanyar: some sort of tech either scientific or magic-y
- Quendi: Teleri: something involving improved ships
- Quendi: Sindarin: something involving forests - improved yields from forest tiles?
- Angband: corrupting the Elves sounds OK, though something else might present itself as equally relevant (possibly something with orc-spawning)
- Mordor: something to improve the usefulness of Hell-equivalent tiles (or whatever), though Angband could use that too
- Angmar: ?
- Isengard: something with industry definitely, uruks could also easily be a separate late-game tech
- Rohirrim: improved horsemen
- Dunlendings: ?
- Haradrim: either improved (or enabled) Mûmakil or improved desert yields
- Easterling: ?
- Numenor: something involving seafaring also, quite possibly identical or very similar to the Telerin one
- Gondor: construction sounds good
- Arnor: something with archery/rangers? something totally different?
- Northmen: ?

Alignment Techs:

- Evil: Slavery, maybe some other stuff involving improved relations/coordination with Angband/Mordor
- Neutral: --------------- (don't have anything, we want polarization)
- Good: Alliance against Morgoth? (i.e. something that lets good civs act like a team when it comes to fighting evil civs, or something to that effect)

Religious: - requires correct Alignment/Race/Civ

- Good: Light of Aman or something
- Dwarves: Teachings of Aulë or something, Light of Aman should also be possible
- Neutral: --------- (once again, shouldn't have anything)
- Evil Men: Worship of Morgoth
- Shadow: ? (seems like it should be different from the Men one somehow)

I edited the post of mine by adding teh word Techs to the religious category. Good ideas you have T F.

I would go either Shift/Slope/Shaft mining for Longbeards (depending on which type of mining we deem more appropriate for Mithril minig); keep Mithril Smithing. Expert mining for other dwarves is fine.

For Fëanor, maybe Gemcutting is more appropriate (I some how dislike the 'elven' part in a tech name, and Jewelry Crafting might be to close to Jewelry)
I like Leadership for Fingolfin, other Quendi are good as well.

Maybe change Industry for Isengard to Industrialisation? That might sound a bit to modern though

We might want a naval tech for Haradrim as well, them having corsairs and all that.
The rest looks good, can't think of anything else atm.

Darn. It didn't take.

Again. I agree with your "Elven" comment. I updated Feanor with Gemcutting. Not sure what we could rename Industry (agree wthat Industralization sounds too modern).

I put down Pirating for Haradrim. Maybe it gives them a "Corasir Unit" that is slightly faster than other ships, but has the First stike promotion.

I am not all that familiar with mining techniques. The Rise of Mankind Mod has implemented a Shaft Mine. I think a regular mine automatically uprades after a while like a town. Perhaps we could use this for Dwarves/Longbeards.

Looks good right now I think. I liked the ranger suggestion for arnor but the watchtower thing is also pretty cool.

Perhaps a "Pass Without Trace" Tech that will allow "Dunedain Ranger Units".

Somehow I was pretty sure that I posted in this thread but it seems to have disappeared.

I also like something Rangery for Arnor, but that doesn't mean we can't have Watchtower fortification for them as well.

Also, I think shaft mining is what speaks most to the imagination/is the best known, so I think we should go for that. The Endless Stairs should qualify as a shaft I'd presume :D

Also, I think shaft mining is what speaks most to the imagination/is the best known, so I think we should go for that.

3 minute later double post. Interesting. I am also having problems of my posts not actually posting. So now, before posting I copy my post, so I don't have to remember and rewrite everything again.

Also, would the Shaft Mines be something else of an Improvement to build, or would they just upgrade regular mines like villages-to-towns do?

The double post is especially weird because I did it from two different computer :crazyeye: (my laptop connection went down, so I checked whether the message came through, and as it didn't show, I retyped it from my regular computer. Apparently the laptop, which I shut down immediately after losing connection, was still able to get the message through...)

I think that we should keep Shaft Mining as a tech only, making it give hammers extra output (+1 hammer for example, maybe +1 hammer +1 commerce) and not having an extra improvement to implement.

Just wondering because the Rise of Mankind Mod has a Shaft Mine procedure that sound interesting, except for the unhappiness it causes. Also, updating the name to Shaft Mining.

What I currently have:

Core Tech Tree:

Race/Civ Techs:

- Khazad: Longbeards: Shaft Mining, Mithril Smithing
- Khazad: Broadbeams & Firebeards: Expert Mining
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Feanor: Gem Cutting
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Fingolfin: Leadership
- Quendi: Vanyar: Ancient Lore (the only universities available?)
- Quendi: Teleri: Great Travels
- Quendi: Sindarin: Nature Empathy
- Angband: Elven Corruption
- Mordor: Desert Survival
- Angmar: Coruption of the Dead (Barrow-Wights)
- Isengard: Industry, Uruk Breeding
- Rohirrim: Culture of Horses/Horseback Culture
- Dunlendings: Survival
- Haradrim: Mumakil Training, Pirating?
- Easterling: Charioteering
- Numenor: Mariner Traditions, Advanced Construction
- Gondor: Advanced Construction
- Arnor: Pass Without Trace (Dunedain Rangers), Watchtower Fortification
- Northmen:

Alignment Techs:

- Evil: Slavery
- Neutral: Cultural Tolerance
- Good:

Religious Techs: - requires correct Alignment/Race/Civ

- Good: Light of Aman
- Dwarves: Teachings of Aulë
- Neutral: Guidance of the Valar
- Shadow: Corruption of Melkor

T F had some good ideas as well. Think up some names and we can modify my list as appropriate. Also, depending on how Religion discussion goes, those might just tie into the Alignment Techs.

On the topic of a Good Alignment Tech, we still need something there.

I like it as it stands now. Maybe we should make advanced construction also for Gondor. Are these all single techs or maybe some are more (like 2 or 3?). That would also be cool.

I wasn't considering the possibility of more. It never occured to me. That is an idea we could discuss. That would indeed be cool.

On Advanced Construction: It already is for Gondor. Did you mean Arnor and Numenor? That would make sence if we did.

Oh sorry, I meant Numenor. Arnor is not necessary I think because they have the watchtower and rangery tech. I think especially for the ships, it should be a path of research so we can have more ships in there while not having to put them all in one tech. Maybe this can also work for the others, but I'm not sure.

Okay, I added Advanced Contruction to Numenor. This page, post #128.

Agreed on ships, there should be a fairly good-sized path (2-4 techs probably) for them available to the Teleri and Númenor - each tech would grant each civ an individual unique unit.
Perhaps we should expand the idea elsewhere - Khuzdul civs get a good Mining/Smithing path, Noldor get Metalworking, Sindar get some kinda forest thing, Gondor should get a longer Construction path (since Númenor gets ships), Rohan (and maybe the Easterlings with their chariots) should get more horse-unit techs, Isengard should probably get some sort of Industrial path, maybe Arnor and the Northmen get something about archery... have I left anything out?

If we are going to add so many more techs, then we need to get another tech tree up and going, if Sengir wouldn't mind. Also, we need to get some deffinative names going.

Yeah, but some names first, otherwise we keep changing things.

Okay. So we have a few decisions to make. Are we going to make every CIV even with the number of extra Techs they get or, can some have more and others less. Then we need to decide what each Civ gets. We will do this by going at it, 1 Civ at a time (although we may decide to move some stuff around as well go). We then do the Alignments Techs and then the Religious ones. We will work on this in that order, so if you have ideas regarding 1 of these, write them down.

So here goes, Decision #1:

#1: Equality in the number of Techs.

#2: Differences in the number of Techs to show more specializing.

I would not go for equality in techs, in fact, I think we might go overboard with the number of civ-specific techs we have now. Not every civ needs a tech for it's own and if we add a civ-specific tech, it should enable something really good, as there is a big price to be paid (you have to research the tech and will never be able to trade it). Also, I think that a lot of units (including UU) can be placed on the tech allready, without adding a civ-specific tech. Otherwise I'm going to call these techs UT's from now on :D

There is an Idea! Great work Sengir. Perhaps we have all of the Unique Units only available through Unique Techs.

I wouldn't do it for all of them, as some are really replacements for regular units. It should work for units that are not replacements though.

Verywellthen! :(

I suppose you are right there. Just getting a bit too complicated with that idea! :lol:

Good point. We don't want to unbalance the game by having some civs get unique techs and others not, but we might be able to fix this by making the UTs expensive enough that their bonus is compensated by the inability to research anything else for a while.

I don't think equal techs for every civ is necessary. We can also just combine some techs for groups of civs:

construction available to Gondor and the first or first two are also available to Numenor
Shaft mining/expert mining for both Khazad races, but only mithril smithing for Longbeards (maybe something else for the others or not)
Rohirrim & Haradrim & Easterlings get all the first special horse tech (Horse mastery maybe) and then the Rohirrim receive 2 more horse related techs, the Haradrim only get this one and a Mumakil one and a piracy one and the easterlings only get the first one and the second one for the chariots maybe. Chariots can also be done in multiple units (chariot with one horse, better version with two horses called war chariot or something like that).
Maybe combine some of the techs for ships for Numenor and Teleri (but providing different UUs).

The idea of doing it like this is that we limit the amount of techs we add because we cluster it to groups of civs, while still making them feel unique, by combining them or even having some special ones for really one civ. I think really trying to give a equal number to all is not neccessary if we balance this properly with how long it takes to research them and where they are in the tech tree and what they actually give as benefits.

I think I get what you mean and it sounds good, but I am not entirely sure I understand your "grouping" idea.

Do you mean that different Civs get the same Tech, but it provides different bonuses/units?

Yes that is exactly what I mean. I will try to give an example: say we have a tech called advanced sailling. It is something available to both Teleri and Numenor. It can unlock things for both, maybe something like a shipyard and maybe some common unit, but the tech can also be required to build two UUs like for example a swan sailship (UU for Teleri) and a heavy warship (UU for Numenor). This way it is one tech and common thinks can be here but even different things can be made available also through this tech. That will limit the techs we have to add to the tree.
Hopefully this clears it up?

I don't think equal techs for every civ is necessary. We can also just combine some techs for groups of civs:

construction available to Gondor and the first or first two are also available to Numenor
Shaft mining/expert mining for both Khazad races, but only mithril smithing for Longbeards (maybe something else for the others or not)
Rohirrim & Haradrim & Easterlings get all the first special horse tech (Horse mastery maybe) and then the Rohirrim receive 2 more horse related techs, the Haradrim only get this one and a Mumakil one and a piracy one and the easterlings only get the first one and the second one for the chariots maybe. Chariots can also be done in multiple units (chariot with one horse, better version with two horses called war chariot or something like that).
Maybe combine some of the techs for ships for Numenor and Teleri (but providing different UUs).

The idea of doing it like this is that we limit the amount of techs we add because we cluster it to groups of civs, while still making them feel unique, by combining them or even having some special ones for really one civ. I think really trying to give a equal number to all is not neccessary if we balance this properly with how long it takes to research them and where they are in the tech tree and what they actually give as benefits.

This is what I had in mind as well.

Ah, that sounds good. I like it. Now we just have to come up with those techs.

Okay some names and in what order:

Stoneworking/?? --> Advanced Constuctions --> Multilevel Construction
Advanced Sailing/Great travels --> Shipcrafting --> Expeditianary Force/Mariner Tradition(only Numenor?) (also has prerequisites from the normal sea techs)
Shaft mining --> expert mining -->mithril working (only Longbeards?) (also has prerequisites from the normal mining techs)

Looking at the latest tech tree (third attempt in the main post) a lot of these more advanced techs are already there as normal techs. Do we want to keep these all as normal techs or can we move some to the civ specific techs?

Not sure. I thought we left those there and now we are coming up with extras. What does everyone think?

Contruction --> Advanced Contruction --> Watchtower Construction
Mithril Working --> Mithril Smithing
Mining --> Expert Mining --> Shaft Mining

Something along those lines I figured.

I'm a bit at a loss as to what we're trying to do now. What is the list of techs that need to be added and who will be able to research which techs? Adding them in the techtree will probably follow quite naturally from that (and the names).

I think we are still trying to come up with Civ Specific Techs, but it is starting to get confused I think. We need to sort that out.

My Idea was to have Specific Civ Techs only available to that particular Civ. Also for Alignments & Religions.

Berenthor seems to want to add more Techs to the Core Tree that activate certain Buildings/Units & add Civ Specific Techs (Correct me if I am wrong here Berenthor).

Yes that was my idea as well but instead of having one tech for each civ specific, I would make a group of techs that can be researched only by a group of civs. The techs you just named are they normal techs for everyone or only the first is normal and the others are civ specific? What I was saying in my post was to have those as groups of techs. Say for example Gondor and Numenor get some techs for their superior construction. Than they would get access to Advanced Constuctions --> Multilevel Construction and maybe something else were we can put the units/buildings we want only them to be able to research. We can also say that Numenor and Arnor and Gondor can do advanced construction for the fortified wall and then Gondor can as an extra do the Multilevel Construction and maybe something else as well, Arnor can do the Watchtower construction and Numenor has some extra seafaring techs. This way we can really combine them without adding to many extra techs. Also not every civ has to have equally many. I'll post this in the new thread as well.

As for the techs you listed, are they standard techs or civ/group specific?

Construction, Mithril Working & Mining are already in the Core List. The others would then split off into the Civ Specific List.

Construction: Everyone
-Leads to
Advanced Contruction: Numenor/Arnor/Gondor (Fortified Walls)
-Leads to
Multilevel Construction: Gondor (Stronghold)
Watchtower Construction: Arnor (Watchtower)

That kind of thing.

Yes exactly, if I would have just explained it this way it would have been fine the first time :(

Are we then calling the "Core Tech Tree" finalized then?

If so, we just need to finalize the Civ/Race, Alignment & Religion Trees before starting to assign Units, Buildings, Promotions, etc..

I think the core is pretty much done.

Core looks good to me to.

Pariah brought up a good point in another thread. Should Bronze Working come before Archery? I am not sure if we want to change things around or not, but it is an interesting choice. If we leave it, I am fine. I can also understand switching them perhaps.

we could simply move Archery to Age of the Stars, which would solve that problem (maybe move BW to First Age?)

That is what I was thinking, just switch them and change the required tech for the age, if we do this.

Sounds good to me. I would say you can have archery before bronze working (using stone arrows) but this is just a thought. Maybe in LotR they had bronze before having archers? I'm not sure.

Allright, I will switch the two techs and replace the requirements for the ages with those techs.

History now stands as Thus:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Fishing:
- Requries: AGE OF THE STARS
Sailing:
- Requires: Fishing
Farming:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Hunting:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Domestication:
- Requires:: Farming or Hunting
Woodworking:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS
Stoneworking:
- Requires: Woodworking
Mining:
- Requires: Woodworking
Fortification:
- Requires: Domestication or Stoneworking & Woodworking
Writing:
- Requires: Stoneworking
Copperworking:
- Requires: Mining
Jewlery:
- Requires: Copperworking &/or Writing
Archery:
- Requires: Stoneworking & Woodworking

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS, Sailing, Domestication, Fortification, Stoneworking, Writing & Jewelry

Horseback Riding:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Domestication
Trade:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Sailing, Writing &/or Farming or Horseback Riding
Stirrup:
- Requires: Horseback Riding
Bronzeworking:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Copperworking
Masonry:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Fortification or Stoneworking
Tradition Keeping:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Writing
Shipbuilding:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Woodworking, Sailing &/or Trade
Diplomacy:
- Requires: The Court
Mounted Combat:
- Requires: Stirrup
Bowyers:
- Requires: Archery
Construction:
- Requires: Masonry
Monarchy:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping
Poetry:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Tradition Keeping &/or Jewelry
Smithing:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Bronzeworking
Ironworking:
- Requries: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Bronzeworking
The Court:
- Requires: Masonry &/or Monarchy
Healing:
- Requires: Monarchy
Music:
- Requires: Tradition Keeping &/or Poetry
Armor:
- Requires: Smithing
Steel Weaponry:
- Requries: Smithing &/or Ironworking

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN, Shipbuilding, Diplomacy, The Court, Music, Healing, Armor & Steel Weaponry

Navigation:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Shipguilding
Treaties:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Diplomacy
Naval Warfare:
- Requries: Navigation
Commerce:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Navigation & Diplomacy or Treaties
Cavalry Tactics:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Professional Armies
Sharpshooting:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Bowyers
Heraldry:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, The Court, Healing &/or Music
Trade Posts:
- Requires: Commerce
Chivalry:
- Requries: Cavalry Tactics & The Court
Marksmanship:
- Requires: Sharpshooting
Engineering:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Construction
Literature:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Poetry
Professional Armies:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, The Court, Heraldry & Armor or Steel Weapons
Mithril Working:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Iron Working & Smithing
Outposts:
- Requries: Naval Warfare &/or Trade Posts
Fortress Building:
- Requries: Engineering
History:
- Requires: Literature &/or Heraldry
Seige Warfare:
- Requires: Construction & Professional Armies
Infantry Tactics:
- Requires: Professional Armies
Council Of Wises:
- Requries: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN & Literacy

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: SECOND AGE OF THE SUN, Naval Warfare, Outposts, Council Of Wises, Fortress Building, History & Professional Armies

Naval Tactics:
- Requries: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Strategy & Naval Warfare
Great Trade Routes:
- Requries: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Outposts or Trade Posts
Ballistics:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Seige Warfare & Marksmanship or Fortress Building
Strategy:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Professional Armies
Advanced Weaponry:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Mithril Working or Infantry Tactics
Machines:
- Requries: Specialized Smithing & Great Trade Routes
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Heraldry, Chivalry & Military Training
Vassalage:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN & Fortress Building or Strategy
Stewardship:
- Requires: Vassalage & History or Monarchy
Alliances:
- Requires: Vassalage
Military Training:
- Requires: Vassalage &/or Composed Armies
Composed Armies:
- Requires: Strategy &/or Advanced Weaponry
Weapon Mastery:
- Requires: Heraldry, Military Training & Advanced Weaponry
Strategic Communication:
- Requries: Alliances
Total War:
- Requires: Alliances & Military Training or Weapon Mastery

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: THIRD AGE OF THE SUN, Machines, Strategic Communication & Total War
Specialized Smithing:
- Requires: FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN & Weapon Mastery
The Peace:
- Requires: FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN & Total War
Age Of Men:
- Requries: Machines & Specialized Smithing


Rewritten ones are these:

Archery:
- Requires: Stoneworking & Woodworking

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
- Requires: AGE OF THE STARS, Sailing, Domestication, Fortification, Stoneworking, Writing & Jewelry

Bronzeworking:
- Requires: FIRST AGE OF THE SUN & Copperworking

What do you think?

Looks great :goodjob:. Done as far as I'm concerned.

I call it done.

All right. The Core Tech Tree is now finalized.

Empty Tech Tree to use for bonuses, promotions, building, units, improvements, etc.

AGE OF THE STARS:
-

Fishing:
-
Sailing:
-
Farming:
-
Hunting:
-
Domestication:
-
Woodworking:
-
Stoneworking:
-
Mining:
-
Fortification:
-
Writing:
-
Copperworking:
-
Jewlery:
-
Archery:
-

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Horseback Riding:
-
Trade:
-
Stirrup:
-
Bronzeworking:
-
Masonry:
-
Tradition Keeping:
-
Shipbuilding:
-
Diplomacy:
-
Mounted Combat:
-
Bowyers:
-
Construction:
-
Monarchy:
-
Poetry:
-
Smithing:
-
Ironworking:
-
The Court:
-
Healing:
-
Music:
-
Armor:
-
Steel Weaponry:
-

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Navigation:
-
Treaties:
-
Naval Warfare:
-
Commerce:
-
Cavalry Tactics:
-
Sharpshooting:
-
Heraldry:
-
Trade Posts:
-
Chivalry:
-
Marksmanship:
-
Engineering:
-
Literature:
-
Professional Armies:
-
Mithril Working:
-
Outposts:
-
Fortress Building:
-
History:
-
Seige Warfare:
-
Infantry Tactics:
-
Council Of Wises:
-

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Naval Tactics:
-
Great Trade Routes:
-
Ballistics:
-
Strategy:
-
Advanced Weaponry:
-
Machines:
-
Mastery Of Mounted Warfare:
-
Vassalage:
-
Stewardship:
-
Alliances:
-
Military Training:
-
Composed Armies:
-
Weapon Mastery:
-
Strategic Communication:
-
Total War:
-

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
-

Specialized Smithing:
-
The Peace:
-
Age Of Men:
-