Maybe a good idea is to get a list of units going as well, this way we can fit the tech tree on that. I like the two lists in the other thread although I wouldn't seperate sword and spear mounted. I think maybe three tiers of units. Maybe a very rough division in units, using those two lists as base:

Worker
Slave
Settler
Warrior
Melee

Swordsman
Axeman
Swordsmaster
Long Swordsman
Infantry (axeman and swordsman both go here)
(only evil) Berserker (does collatoral damage during attack, attack is higher than defense)

Spears

Spearman
Phalanx
Pikeman

Archers

Bowman
Archer
Longbowman
Marksman
Crossbowman

Recon

Scout
Hunter
Ranger

Siege

Ram
Catapult
Trebuchet
Siege Tower
(UU Isengard maybe) Ballista

Mounted

Horsearchers

Mounted archer
(UU Rohan) Horse archer

Horseman

(UU Easterlings) Chariot
Horseman
Knight
Cavalry


Ships

Transports

Ship/Galley
Transport/Galleon

Warships

Warship
Siegeship/Quinquereme/Penteres
Great ship/Man'O'War/Ship of the Line

Misc

Workboat


National Units

Captain of the Guard (3 allowed) --> Tower Guards, Eorlingas Royal Guard, Black Riders, etc.



PS: attack and defense values for units are seperate in FFH2, this may be nice (archers better defense but poorer attack, etc)

I like the list, would add Marksman instead of Elite Archer, and probably some sort of heavy Cavalry. Also, the ranger should be either invisible (but able to attack) or hidden nationality.

Another point: I like the idea of captians and such as a national unit with limited availability (should be mostly foot units, though the unique version for the Rohirrim for example should be mounted)

I added the suggestions to the list. I actually think that the ranger could still be in there although we could make it a national unit as well. In FFH2 they have given certain recon units the ability to carry a bird (which works like a plane, with rebase etc. but without an attack). These birds have a range and are used for scouting. This may also be a nice addition to a recon line or an ability to give only to rangers. Another possibility is to make rangers invisible to most units except a certain kind of unit. But we have to balance this well. I personnally don't like the hidden nationality for a ranger.

Will have a look at the FFH birds. That might work as well. Are recon-units per definition disallowed from attacking? In that case we should make the unique rangers able to attack (or make rangers unique hunters).

If I remember correctly from modding BtS, it is a setting that you can set in XML per unit, and not per unitclass. This should allow us to manually set this for each unit that we want not to be able to attack. Although actually depending on how we implement it, we might want hunters or scouts to be able to attack.

Those are good ideas. you should also include the Elephant for Haradrim Civ.

Under the Mounted list you could have two types of Elephant mounts.

Mumakil
Ballista Mumakil

------------------------

On the idea of the attacking Recon, perhaps that ability should only be for the Ranger unit (the last/most powerful of the unit tree). (Sorry saw that sengir already mentioned this in a way). I think that the Cannon idea should be left out however. It just seems a bit "too" advanced.

Also, what about ships? Should we allow up to Galleons? or Ship of the Line? Anything further would be too advanced IMO. Perhaps the animation could be changed for those two to show arrows instead of cannons being used (if that isn't too hard of course).

There was a ships list somewhere too. Will see if I can dig it out so that we can reuse it.

Edit:
Here it is:
Oh, good point, we have to think about the ships... There will be no combat ships until the second age. Many of the naval units would be UUs, like the Swan Ships (a weaker transport ship, but cheaper and available earlier) for the Teleri, the Corsairs for the Haradrim, and several boats for Númenor. A sketch, without any values (but they should be expensive, in ME we didn't have many ships):
Work Boat: normal, available to all
Swan Ship: only ship available in the Age of Stars, only to the Teleri (transport ship)
Ship: first transport, no attack, available to all
Transport: better transport, not completely defenseless, available to all
Warship: first military naval unit, available to all
Siege Ship: can bombard cities, good against transports, slow, weak against warships, available to all
Scout ship: weak, but fast, good to exploration, available to all
High Ship: best naval unit, hybrid between Warship and Transport, only to Númenor (maybe Gondor/Arnor)
Fast Ship: best explorer ship, only to Númenor
Great ship: late game siege ship, available to all
Quick ship: late game warship, available to all
Corsair: ???, only to Harad

So that would make:

Transports

Ship
Transport

Warships

Warship
Siegeship
Great ship
Quick ship

Misc

Workboat
Scoutship


The rest as UU's

While I like the list in general, I'm not too fond about the names. It's a bit boring really. Will have to look around for other names.

I like the list, especially the list of UU's. Numenor should also have UU ships because they were also shipbuilders. Some ships, like the quick ship feel maybe not needed. I agree with limiting the ships because there are not that many in ME, but than why so many categories? I tried to improve the names. See the first list for improvements.

Good work on the names of the ships, let's use those (unless someone finds an awesome in one of Tolkiens books that's generic enough to not be a UU). I would drop the quick ship as well, it sounds like it should be a scout ship, but we've got a scoutship allready.

I agree as well.

I find Man'o'war a quite bad name for ships in ME. Quinquirreme is not actually very good, but can be used, as Galleon. Frigates would be usable, and more generic names would be best - specially for non-UUs.
Crossbows I'd use in the very end of the mod, in the 4th Age. There's no mention of Ballistas, but we may suppose they existed in ME, but no cannons. Berserker should only be available for a few civs - elven or dwarven berserkers, or even edain, would be a shame. Rangers should not have birds, but Radagast or some heroes should.
I really loved the idea of the Captains... thought I don't know in what age they would be. Perhaps there should be some kind of advancement for them.
Oh, chariots are definitely UUs. Only the easterlings ever used any, and this was very weird for anyone else.

Having played around with FFH a bit, I think the captains should be units that can only be upgraded from units with level X (probably 5 or so), that, and needing a tech to enable them (probably late 2nd/early 3th age)

The captains should indeed be upgradable units instead of producable. If I remember correctly Quinquirremes were siege ships of the Romans so the name sounds apt for this. As for Man'O'War, I think we could also call it Ship of the Line or something like that.

It's greek originally, but quinquirreme is the Roman name. We can call it Penteres if you like the sound of that better.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinquereme)

Like captains, like the upgrade idea. As a general suggestion, civs should get WAY more than one unique unit, I don't see even 10 or more as a problem.

For Rangers, they should be pretty good archers as well as recon. Hidden nationality and can attack without declaring war. If you can get them to only stealth in forest that'd be great, if not, general stealth is fine.

IDK about chariots, nobody in canon used chariots. Also I don't think the dwarven cannon is a good idea either, no gunpowder.
Berserker should be an Isengard UU of some kind. Maybe substitute it as their Captain unit or something.

The Teleri should probably get work boats before everyone else too, maybe they can work water tiles earlier also. They should probably get better ships than anyone else except Númenor throughout the game instead of just being able to use water sooner.
You could have the Teleri and Númenor as counterpart sea powers, maybe the Teleri have faster (and maybe cheaper) ships than everyone else and the Númenoreans have stronger ships.

Maybe we should only allow berserkers to Orc type units. To so their barbarity in a way. I also like the upgradable captains idea.

Berserk or Captains as promotions? that'de be interesting...

How about upgradeable Captains for everybody, and you can choose to make Orcs or Uruk-hai Berserkers instead of Captains (both choices available at the same time always)?

...Was there ever anything that counted as an Orc Berserker, or is that only an Uruk thing?

There is indeed no gunpowder. Dwarven cannon was mostly a cool name for their UU catapult or something :). I think everybody should get upgradable captains. Not sure about the berserkers. Maybe if we give them another name, we can use it for all civs. Just a unit that has higher attack than defense, something like that.

Rangers I would really see as recon units, not archers. They may use bows but should not be better than regular archers, otherwise what's the point in having those. They should not have hidden nationality I think, especially not if they are also invisisble. Way to unbalanced imho.

Chariots should indeed be UUs for Haradrim. In the civs thread I added space to add UU's for the civs and already some suggestions. If you have suggestions, place them there as well.

I agree with everyone being able to have the Upgradeable Captains/Berserkers idea. That would be really cool.

Dwarves definitely need a UU Catapult, but you can't call it a cannon since by definition all cannons use gunpowder.
I think a catapult with stronger city bombard damage is a good Dwarf UU. (Name?)

I think everybody should get upgradable captains. Not sure about the berserkers. Maybe if we give them another name, we can use it for all civs. Just a unit that has higher attack than defense, something like that.
Give them a strong-ish offense, but make the main selling point a catapult-esque collateral damage ability. Make them kind of like living catapults that can't bombard, and I think you get the basic idea behind berserkers.
I think that the idea of 'berserker' is a uniquely Evil concept (sending in guys that are guaranteed to die isn't something any respectable good guy would do), so I don't think we need to change the name.

Rangers I would really see as recon units, not archers. They may use bows but should not be better than regular archers, otherwise what's the point in having those. They should not have hidden nationality I think, especially not if they are also invisisble. Way to unbalanced imho.
Yeah, on second thought that really is overpowered.

I think a catapult with stronger city bombard damage is a good Dwarf UU. (Name?)


Gully Dwarf Slinger! :crazyeye:

Like, it actually fires dwarves?
*ftong* AAAAAAAAAAA-

DragonLance referrence there.

In any of the battles I have read about the dwarves thus far, siege engines have never been mentioned as far as I can tell. It wouldn't hurt to let them have them, but perhaps we could give them say;

Sappers: They have the Ranged Bombardment that archers can have in other mods. Make them a Seige unit, but style them as a Dwarven Axemen Type Unit. This way it would deffinately be a "Unique" Unit for them.

Berserkers should indeed require evil (that is, IMHO neutral men can also build them if they have turned to evil).

Gunpowder (or anything related) is a big no in my book, only exception is the 'bomb' Saruman created. If we put that in, it should be a world-unit (there can be only one, ever).

I agree on the berserker type of unit although a unit which has a higher attack and does collatoral damage while attacking can be for every civ (but I don't know about the name).
I like the dwarven sapper idea. But I agree, no gunpowder at all. I would maybe even keep the "bomb" of Saruman out completely.

Yeah, the bomb is still an 'if' for me.

Didn't notice the sappers before, guess I simply read over them. How does ranged bombardment work? Got a link. I like the sound of them though.

The ranged bombardment is in the DCM mod for normal BtS. It will be a lot of work to integrate that so I'm not sure about them. Maybe we should keep that out for now (merging that with FFH2 will be a pain I think).

Sappers and their ranged bombardment are great, but you can't call it 'ranged bombardment' because it isn't. Should we give them some kind of collateral damage ability, or does that just not make sense?

I kinda like the idea of the bomb being a world unit, but IDC if we leave it out completely.

Berenthor said:

I like that idea. As far as the flying is concerned: don't make them airplane like. This will make it very limited to "air missions". In FFH2 they have dragons and griffon units which just move over impassable terrain (although we should think about oceans) and ignore movement costs. These thinks should really be balanced properly but this will work quite well I think. "Flying" or "Winged" could be a promotion which gives these properties to a unit maybe or just make it racial (dragons have it or something).

It is a good idea. Have flying units just the same as all others except give them (and only them, don't let others get it with promotions) a special "Winged" promotion that allows them to pass over both Water and Impassable Terrain.

Yeup, that's a good idea and easy to implement (I think, would have to look at the code to know for sure). Will have to think about movement on water though. I don't know whether the AI will handle that properly..... I have seen griffons in FFH move on water though so it should work if we want them to fly across water.

Yeah, that'll work. Just make sure the unit graphics aren't in contact with the ground - in FFH gryphons look like they're standing on water.

We should make it so that the only units the Shadow can actually build are Orc, Uruk, Troll, Seige, and the Ringwraiths. The other (Men) units only came from subjugation of other lands.

T_F

Sappers and their ranged bombardment are great, but you can't call it 'ranged bombardment' because it isn't. Should we give them some kind of collateral damage ability, or does that just not make sense?

That is a good point. Perhaps a collateral damage ability would be better for the Sapper unit.

OR:

Have them only able to reduce defenses and then at the end (only after there is no defense bonus left fot the city) they could have a chance with each attack to destroy City Walls, High Walls (if they are put in), Castles, Fortresses etc. (going from walls up). A small chance for each attack, but each attack of that sort causes damage to the unit at that point.

We should make it so that the only units the Shadow can actually build are Orc, Uruk, Troll, Seige, and the Ringwraiths. The other (Men) units only came from subjugation of other lands.
That's probably good. Maybe the Shadow can by some process extract other units from other Evil-aligned civs?
Maybe all Evil-aligned civs somehow count as partial vassals to the Shadow, and there's some system that lets the Shadow request units from them. Either that, or the Shadow gains some of the build options of each other Evil civ (so most, if not all, other civs start Good or Neutral).

OR:

Have them only able to reduce defenses and then at the end (only after there is no defense bonus left fot the city) they could have a chance with each attack to destroy City Walls, High Walls (if they are put in), Castles, Fortresses etc. (going from walls up). A small chance for each attack, but each attack of that sort causes damage to the unit at that point.
I like it. I think it should go from top down, because otherwise you have a building that requires Walls without actually having Walls.
Plus it makes the unit unique instead of being an improved catapult analog.

I chose the way I did to represent that the Walls would be the first destroyed. You would then need to rebuild the walls if you want to build anything else.

Ah, that makes sense.

For the colateral damage after defenses are gone, that is not in standard BtS or FFH2. It is in the Dales Combat Mod which makes all these kind of things possible, but I wouldn't start with merging another mod into this one, definetly not in the beginning. I would make sappers cause collatoral damage or be able to reduce defenses or both.

I like the idea about the shadow. Another possibility is that we give the shadow access to civs which have this partial vassalship with it. Mechanic wise I'm not sure how to do this now.

We could always just give them a majorly upgraded Axmen or something. It doesn't have to be a seige weapon, which they didn't really use on the stories anyway.

Everything is great, except the Saruman's bomb. It's not a real bomb in the book, only an "exploding fire", a spell of Saruman.

Sappers are great. After all, there are no cannons in canon. Rangers really should not be archers, and stealth in forests would be great (thought there should be versions for other terrains, like hills - the Rangers of the North did very well outside forests, while the Rangers of Ithilien were focused in forests and fields).

Maybe when you build a Ranger you get a promotion option for Forest Stealth or Hill Stealth.

Depending on the civ, you could also get a different promotion (that we make it civ dependant if it is forest or hill or ice/tundra, or whatever). I think Elda King is right about the bomb. Maybe just leave it out and when we go with the King Units (an idea I really like) we can give Saruman some kind of spell to this effect.

IDK about the civ-specific promotions for rangers - we don't want a civ with great forest rangers to start in a desert.

Saruman should have some sort of epic destruction spell, especially if Isengard goes Evil. WAIT - IDEA: King units get two major abilities. King units for Neutral nations should have one permanent spell, and one that changes based on alignment - one option for Good and one for Evil. (None for Neutral since we pretty much want everybody polarized as far as I can tell, though it might be an option.)

That IS a good idea, I like it and think it's not that hard to implement (though we might decide some stuff is going to wait until a second release)

That is an interesting idea.

I like that idea. Actually, there is a mod component for FFH2 which is called flavourstart and gives preferences for civs to be placed on the map: elves near/in forests, dwarves near hills etc. I haven't checked out how it actually works and if it is SDK changes (I think so) but it is something to keep in mind for a later release.

That'll be really great.

Perhaps Elves could have the Forest Defence Bonus for free. Then it would be quicker for them to upgrade the movement too.

Also, although it may seem obvious, you should probably add to your list:

Worker
Settler

Added it to the list, forgot about those :). As for the bonus: you can give a promotion per civilization in FFH2 if I remember correctly. I think also the racial promotion for elves might incorporate this movement bonus and then this racial promotion is given to all elven civs (it is just a promotion called Elf which means the unit is an elve and gives some bonusses or disadvantages. There are also others like demon, undead, dwarf, dragon, etc.) This works quite well, we don't have to do anything for that, except maybe add some or remove some or edit them.

Sounds great. It is good that we decided to go with FFH2 as a base after all. It seems to have taken a lot of the work out of this for you guys.

Yup. So should we now focus on what racial promotions we need and what they do?
Lemme think...

Human? They always seem left out somehow...
Elf - forest defense, forest movement, -something
Dwarf - hills defense, hills movement, -something
Maia - ? +Holy damage? (do we want such a thing?)
Vala? - ? +Major Holy damage? (do we even want Vala units ever?)
Orc - ? susceptible to Holy damage?
Troll - ?
Ent - more susceptible to fire damage, ?
Balrog - +Fire damage?
Uruk? (Different from Orc?) - ?
Anything else?

Are we doing this as a general broad Racial Bonus or are we doing this as a Civ Bonus?

I don't think that Maiar and Valar unit will be in, at least in the core game. Maybe in scenarios. I like a lot of your suggestions though.

I was thinking about "Evil" Civs. I think maybe they should lose access to the Worker Unit and instead gain a Slave unit that is slower to produce (Build improvements), and perhaps gets used up after it builds an improvement other than roads. They should be cheaper to produce however. What do you think?

Orcs and Uruks like to swarm, so maybe they could have the Flanking promotion.

Ents should be weak against Fire and Axes. Trolls perhaps could be stronger within their own cultural borders and weaker without to show their weakness in sunlight, but stronger in the darkness.

I think that Humans should get a City defence bonus.

Maybe Trolls get a version of the Elohim's Homeland promo.

Flanking seems fine, though that seems like more of a cavalry promo.

Slaves - cheap, slow workers that you have a chance to gain from combat, maybe? Like the idea.
Maybe it's a side bonus of the Slavery civic, which the Shadow starts with and is only available to Evil-aligned civs. Shadow is disallowed worker but gets to start off with two slaves.

Good ideas. I just updated the post with the idea that they get used up after building improvements other than roads.

I like the slaves idea, but we need to make sure to balance it properly (especially if they are used up after building anything but a road).

I wouldn't make slaves be used up, but maybe just let them work 25% or 50% slower (like in FFH2). I also wouldn't let them gain anything in combat. Just make them cheaper but slower, should be balanced enough I think. For the promotions: Ents for example can get forest bonusses but weakness against fire. Look at the racial promos from FFH2 and see if things there are usefull. I'll try to find them when I have the time and put them here.

O.K. No permanent use of Slaves for improvements. Glad you like the concept of Slaves overall though. Perhaps that could be added to the Units list then.

We also still have a few Units on the list in question:

Heavy Cavalry
Fireship
Ballista
Chariot

My Opinion on them:

Heavy Cavalry: Just have it as a Stronger version of the Cavalry Unit.
Fireship: Remove this one.
Ballista: Perhaps limit it, like a National Unit.
Chariot: Remove this one.

Heavy Cav > I think we need some form of this, but we might want to change the name.
Fireship > No
Ballista > :dunno:
Chariot > UU for some civ, not as basic unit

I don't remember chariots anywhere in Tolkien, so who would get them?
Fireship is fine as gone
Heavy Cav - maybe also a UU?
Ballista - I'm fine with National Unit, it could also be an Isengard UU instead of Catapult

Promo suggestions again:
Elf - forest defense, forest movement, -cave defense?
Dwarf - hills defense, hills movement, -something
Orc - Hell-terrain-equivalent defense, something (something like Flanking was suggested)
Troll - something like the Elohim's Homeland, maybe with some mountain/cave defense
Ent - more susceptible to fire damage (and ax damage if that's possible), forest defense and attack
Balrog - +Fire damage, some balrog-specific thing like we were talking about earlier
Uruk? (Different from Orc?) - +attack towards some specific class? +attack versus Humans?

I seem to remember the Easterlings as having chariots, but I'm not quite sure.

I thought I remembered that as well. The Haradrim used the Mumakil and the Easterlings Chariots.

In regards to getting slaves. I believe it is the Mesoamerican Scenario/Mod that came with the 3.17 update that has a feature for the Aztecs that gives them a chance of getting slaves/workers from defeated units. That would take a lot of the work out for implementing that kind of scenario.

Ah, I didn't know that about chariots.

Would you be able to add that component for slaves in easily?

FFH has a slave system in place allready (they can be bought at a slave ring or captured in combat). They work at 50% speed of normal workers. So the only thing we would have to change is making them buildable for evil civs as well.

Sounds good. A lot of work done then. We are DEFFINATELY going to have to give a lot of credit to the FFH team!

Nah, why bother, it's not like their mod is popular or something. Nobody will notice :mischief:

:lol: Absolutely Hilarious! :lol:

You my friend are the :king: of sarcasm!

:P

Yeah, they get a lot of credit for this.

Yes chariots were in use by the haradrim together with Mumakils. They were rohan of the east so to speak :) horselords all the way. This would actually be a nice balance to have two horse based civs in. I agree with the fireships, leave them out. Also the ballista, I'm wondering if it is from the book or only something from the movies that isengard uses them. Definetly not as a normal unit, maybe UU.

I like the promo suggestions, but my idea would be to keep them FFH2 for now. We can change that easily afterwards.

Oh, I thought it was the Easterlings. My bad.

When you have a chance Berenthor, add the Slave Unit to your list if you could, please.

From a discussion in the Civs thread, that xmen510 suggested goes better here (and it does):

...obsoletion implemented on a much wider scale would be interesting. That way battles in the First Age wouldn't be involving anything significantly weaker than Third Age units, and keeping First Age units alive throughout the game might be worth something (which is an odd - and unique - game dynamic). Since technically the First Age involved similarly strong if not significantly stronger units than the Third Age, it would be fairly accurate as well.

Thoughts?

That would be an interesting dynamic.

I like it as well. It also creates a dynamic because you have to chose between advancing to the next age and getting newer buildings/civics etc. or stay in the first to keep building those units.

Do we have a UU list?

Not really, we have been trying to finalize the regular units first. We also decided to concentrate on the Civs and get them out of the way. However, if you want to take a crack at it, let me know and I will start a Thread for you. This way I can keep the 1st post regularly updated.

We already have some ideas we want to put in. However, by all means, share your ideas have we are about 90% away from settling on anything in the UU regard.

I would prefer a separate thread for them however, so again, if you want that, either post here or PM me and I'll set it up immediately.

UUs:

Easterlings: they were skilled swordsmen, so some time of swordsmen.

Feanor aka Gnomes: the children of Feabor went bezerk over recovering the silmarils, so some bezerker.

I see that we have already decided on some based on the civ list

I will start a new thread then. However, Bersekers we are thinking of limiting to the Shadow CIV's for Orcs. There are some suggestions for UU's in this thread if you want to skim through it. Just give me a moment and I will set up the thread for you.

EDIT: The ones in the Civ list are just ideas, not finalized as of yet.

Oh, so I will have to come up with stats for them. I might as well get the UUs our of the way because we have to do them eventually.

Correct, we have not done any Specifics, we are just finalizing the Ideas, then we will work on the Specifics. However, if you would like to get a start on that, you are free to do so, just remember that anything you come up with will have to be considered by the Team.

Other than that, have Fun!

What stats were we thinking of for the infantry unit? Also, what is this fuss about the racial promotions?

We haven't gotten to stating things out yet. you are welcome to give it a shot if you like. I am not sure what you mean about the Racial Promotions though. What fuss are we talking about?

These are the stats I came up with for the infantry:
strength: 5
movement: 1
cost: 40
+10% City Attack
+25% vs. Melee Units

I skimmed through this thread and found a discussion about racial promotions (ex: Elf- forest defense, forest movement, -something).

That sounds pretty good to me. Basically +1 Strength on up the line. I like it. We'll have to see what the others think.

Ah, yes. When you said "Fuss" I thought you meant some kind of disagreement.

Yes, we are thinking of having certain Bonus promotions available by Race. Also, perhaps certain Races will have certain Promotions right off the bat, such as:

When the Khazad build there Taining Grounds and then build an Axeman, it Would automatically have the Hills Defence I Promotion to represent the Khazad being better able in Mountainous and Hill Terrain. It isn't something finalized as yet, it is still up for discussion.

Are we agreed on this list? If so, it might be time to put some numbers to them, so that we will have more to compare the UUs with. If not, what are the points of discussion?

I think we pretty much are. Did we decide to remove the fireship?

Also, are Orcs then going to be considered UU? If so, then all of Angbands units and most/all of Mordors will be UU. That doesn't bother me though. Orcs would be cheaper weaker units anyway. Or will they still be the same as men, but just use different looks, like Veritas(sp?)?

yeah, fireship should be out.

Could go either way on the orcs. Much depends on the stats I suppose. If we want to have them cheaper (+weaker) then having them as UUs would probably be best.

Fireship out, I will remove it from the list (thougth I already did :)). For the orcs, I would make them UU I think. I agree that Angband and Mordor have mostly UU units but for me that is not a problem if balanced correctly (which is doable).

Some units which are still open for discussion from the first list:

Berserker as normal unit or UU for shadow/evil civs?
Marksman yes or no?
Ballista as normal unit? I would say no, maybe as UU for Isengard although I think it is only in the movies
Horse archers as normal units or as UU for Rohan?
Chariots only as UU and not as normal unit right?
Heavy cavalry neccessary or do we have enough mounted?
The list of ships for all civs is not to long?
Scoutship neccessary?

#1: Berserker: Normal for Shadow/Evil
#2: Marksman: Yes
#3: Ballista: UU for Isengard
#4: Horse Archers: UU for Rohan
#5: Chariots: UU for Easterlings
#6: Heavy Cavalry: Necessary or remove a Tech or Heavy Cavalry activates more Promotions and Perhaps upgrades to Mounted Units in the Way of Defense and Attack (Maybe +1 to each)
#7: List of Ships too long: Not sure, Perhaps some of the Techs can give upgrades.
#8 Scoutship Necessary: I don't believe so

1) Berserker: evil only (not just shadow, everyone with evil alignment can build them, maybe we need a good equivalent? Immune to collateral or something?
2) Marksman: Yes
3) Ballista: UU for Isengard
4) Horse Archer: UU for Rohan (it is pretty damn hard to shoot a bow from a horse)
5) Chariots: UU for Easterlings (preferably in two variants as Berenthor suggested, with 1 horse and with 2)
6) Heavy Cavalry: drop the unit, we can have it as a promo (enabled by a tech). I don't want to go Mounted heavy, as it doesn't fit Arda (footsoldiers were a lot more common I think). This way we have three basic horse-units + mounted archer (and UUs for the horsemen-civs).
7) I can't think of anything to add (or do you want to take away?). I think the list is long enough. As xmen said, we can differentiate further with promotions.
8) Scoutship: I think we can drop it as I doubt it will see much use.

I can agree on this, but then the berserker is not a normal (everybody can build it) unit anymore. Also, Ballista and horse archer will be removed from the normal units list and also the scoutship will be removed. Chariots also not a normal unit and also remove heavy cavalry.

Sounds good.

yeup. The normal unit list will be rather small, but all civs will have a couple of unique units (some of which are shared with other civs).

Certain Civs will be all UU as well. Angband & Mordor.

That sounds good. Makes civs more unique in my opinion which I really like. Updated the first post with all the suggestions (kept the UUs there with a reference that they are UU so we don't forget them).

This is looking more and more refined with every round. It looks good. I think we may nearing the point on deciding finalization or not.

Yeah I think so to. Than we can start putting stats on them and then the UUs can be filled in.

sandman730 has been doing an excellent job with the UU to this point. I am sure he will do excellent work with these as well.

So this is what the Unit list will look like without the UU in it. Also, I removed the National units as they should be a separate topic.


Worker
Slave
Settler
Warrior
Melee

Swordsman
Axeman
Swordsmaster
Long Swordsman
Infantry (axeman and swordsman both go here)
(only evil) Berserker (does collatoral damage during attack, attack is higher than defense)

Spears

Spearman
Phalanx
Pikeman

Archers

Bowman
Archer
Longbowman
Marksman
Crossbowman

Recon

Scout
Hunter
(only good) Ranger

Siege

Ram
Catapult
Trebuchet
Siege Tower

Mounted

Horsearchers

Mounted archer

Horseman

Horseman
Knight
Cavalry


Ships

Transports

Ship/Galley
Transport/Galleon

Warships

Warship
Siegeship/Quinquereme/Penteres
Great ship/Man'O'War/Ship of the Line

Misc

Workboat





PS: attack and defense values for units are seperate in FFH2, this may be nice (archers better defense but poorer attack, etc)

Looks good.

Sounds good to me. I think for the first tier of units (warrior, scout, axeman) we can look at the stats from FFH I think they are pretty descent (a little higher than normal BtS due to the fact that there are more barbarians and animals in FFH at the beginning).

Example:

Warrior: 3 strength, 1 movement
Scout: 2 strength, can attack, 2 movement
Axeman: 4 strength, 1 movement, +50 vs melee
Spearman: 3 strength, 1 movement, +100 vs mounted

Don't forget that spme units can use metal weapons (thus receiving bonusses) and others not. (in your list, Warrior and scout should not be able to use metal weapons, while Axeman and Spearman should).

True that.

Yeah definetly. Axeman and Swordsman and Spearman should only use bronze (maybe iron) and warrior and scout none. I think therefore 4 and 3 respectively for axeman and spearman should be high enough and still better than the warrior. The higher units go, the more metals they can use (we have three I believe: bronze, iron and mithril).

Oh, I have it down as Copper in my list. Should I change it then to Bronze?

No no copper is correct as the resource but the weapons carried should be bronze :). They did not make copper weapons but used copper to make bronze. At least that is what happened in our prehistory :).

Okay! I get it.

Nice list. I don't have anything I would change on it.

Now, are we allowing all units to be built regardless of resource (except Mounted Units) and the resource only giving bonuses?

Such as:

Copper: +1 Attack/Defence
Iron: +2 Attack/Defence
Mithril: +3 Attack/Defence

Or are we thinking along the lines of something else?

What you outlined is pretty much what I had in mind. Perhaps I would give Mithril more of a bonus, but that might be too much.

Copper: +1 Attack/Defence
Iron: +2 Attack/Defence
Mithril: +4 Attack/Defence

Perhaps like that? Also, the Mithril Smithing Tech for the Longbeards will give a bonus because of the Buildings, so, yeah, we don't want it too high.

I think Heavy Cavalry should have Shock Promotion or maybe 'Shatter'

Shatter can be...
(If you win decisivly, collat damage to wounded units)(Like flanking, except this means reaching the back of an army and breaking through)
(Or if a unit hit twice in combat, you get a third free hit before the next combat roll)(harder to code)

Shock is the easy way out. Shatter represents their heavy status at breaking enemy lines and as decisive cavalry.

Sounds interesting.

Interesting concept. Not too sure of the name, but it could work.

Sounds good although we set we would remove heavy cavalry (and maybe make it a UU for Rohan or something). The idea for the promo is good.

About the bonusses: This is pretty much what I had in mind. Maybe do +3 instead of +4 for mithril and have the building give an extra one (via a promo or something).

About Mithril: yeah, going more then +3 might be a bit much. I was thinking about +3 and +10% defense myself, to signify the specialty of Mithril

Copper: +1 Attack/Defence
Iron: +2 Attack/Defence
Mithril: +3 Attack/Defence

I am not sure about you +10% defence comment as it already gives +3, unless you meant:

Copper: +1 Attack/Defence
Iron: +2 Attack/Defence
Mithril: +3 Attack/Defence, +10% More Defence.

That's what I meant indeed.

Well, instead of:

Mithril: +3 Attack & Defence, +10% Defence

we could go with:

Mithril: +3 Attack & +4 Defence.

That's possible as well.

I like the higher defense than attack :).

Agreed on higher defense.

If we do that though we'll have to specify that it's armor, so we'll have to say 'unit upgraded to mithril equipment' instead of 'mithril weapons'.

Agreed.
tenchar

Yeah good point. I like it.

We have agreed that certain later on Techs will not grant new units but just make them more powerful versions and grant more Promotion options if I remember correctly.

Are we calling the current list finalized then?

What do you mean by this?

I like the list. Finalized as far as I'm concerned.

Finalized for me as well.

What do you mean by this?

I take it you mean this statement:

We have agreed that certain later on Techs will not grant new units but just make them more powerful versions and grant more Promotion options if I remember correctly.

If so, I mentioned it because we don not have enough Units to actually fill out the Techs Tree. We have more Techs than Units, especially for the Mounted Ones. Thus, later Techs will grant further attack and defence bonuses as well as new promotions but will not actually provide new units. Am I wrong on this?

No that is true, but not al techs need to provide a unit. Maybe for each domain of units (mounted, melee, archers) we can have one per age (except the first who only has warriors and scouts?). Just a thought.

Sounds good, but archers are now available in the AGE OF THE STARS because of the switch we just made.

Oh yeah forgot about that. Still not a problem I think. Maybe we should check the list to see if we have one for each age approximatly.

I think we have enough units applied to each of the ages except for the Fourth Age, but that is alright I think.

That's fine for me.

I am moving the Unit List to the finalized thread then.