View Full Version : Bee Line Metal Casting


budweiser
Mar 06, 2009, 07:52 AM
I'd like to get some thoughts on this strategy. I think it has potential for seafood starts, especially Carthage (fishing & mining) and possibly some IND civs.

Metal Casting only requires BW & pottery. On some starts it's possible to research pottery after the wheel and then go BW to MC. However, it may be better to do BW first to see if bronze is revealed, then get pottery and or a 2nd city.

It's a long way to MC it cost 450 beakers. But to help you get there you have water tile bonus and cottages from pottery. You have things to build like granary, workers, maybe boats as scouts, settlers, maybe axemen.

I played a few starts to try this out and was getting MC around 1500BC on normal maps. Once you get it, you can get a bonus to production, possible happy increases if you have precious metals, maturing cottages, and a really strong tech for trading.

MkLh
Mar 06, 2009, 08:15 AM
You can get MC by 1500BC with Oracle. I don't know if it is worth it to beeline it manually and delay crucial techs like Writing.

budweiser
Mar 06, 2009, 08:23 AM
You can get MC by 1500BC with Oracle. I don't know if it is worth it to beeline it manually and delay crucial techs like Writing.

Mathematically speaking, it may come out faster if you 'delay' it by grabbing writng in 10 turns or so and putting in a lib and then finishing it off.

Those early religious techs are really pretty cheap once you get some economy going. You may be able to catch up and still get the Oracle. It usually goes around 1200 and 1500 to MC was just a few sub optimal runs I tried.

Joshua368
Mar 06, 2009, 08:42 AM
Early metal casting can be useful, expecially for industrious civs, but it seems silly to go research it manually when you can take the oracle slingshot so easily.

oyzar
Mar 06, 2009, 09:07 AM
Metalcasting is far overrated, especially with non-industrious civs. Colossus is good when you want to work a lot of coastal tiles, but that is not going to happen until you have a decent amount of cities that are working pretty much all their other tiles(meaning you need at least monarchy as well). It certainly isn't worth what those beakers could get you otherwise. Forges are not something you want to build early game. They are expensive and takes quite a long time to pay off in small cities. Early game you have so much other things to spend hammers on.. It just isn't worth it to get it for something you don't even really want to build.

Bleys
Mar 06, 2009, 09:19 AM
I am with oyz, there are a lot more effective lines of play. If I am IND and plan the Oracle, then absolutely, its a strong tech that opens a cheap Wonder (IND + Copper = a whip and a chop, especially since you need a Forge first). But if I am not IND, I dont even build the Oracle anymore, because I need other things more urgently. About the only time I build the Oracle if I am not IND is if I can settle my 2nd city ON Marble because there is another important resource there, like Copper or Horses. If I have to build a Quarry, forget it, the Oracle just goes too early.

madscientist
Mar 06, 2009, 09:32 AM
I disagree, Metal Casting early is very valuable although I would only do the Oracle slingshot. What you get

1) Forges which boost production.

2) Happiness from forges if you have silver/gold/gems. Monarchy and calendar can be greatly delayed.

3) Triemes: With Barb Galleys these are pretty handy. They also allow blockading of AI coastal cities to cripple them during wars.

4) Potential getting an early Great Engineer by early access to an engineer specialist. I believe a GE can bulb Machinery real early.

5) First crack at the Colossus which is one of those the earlier the better wonders.

Is it worth skipping so many early techs??? not sure about that. Nor am I sure it's better to pursue the relisous techs to slingshot it. Good post though, something to think about.

EDIT

6) One of the best trade bait early techs!

Bleys
Mar 06, 2009, 10:06 AM
4) Potential getting an early Great Engineer by early access to an engineer specialist. I believe a GE can bulb Machinery real early.
This is one of the better reasons, whether you want the GE for a tech or a big Wonder like the Mids or GL. Its a very strong tactic with Qin, especially if you pre-chop and get that Forge up fast to run the Engineer. He can get to Chu's very fast like this, but its sort of level-dependent how effective it is. Someone was running some good looking theory test games about this, was a good thread.

budweiser
Mar 06, 2009, 10:19 AM
This is one of the better reasons, whether you want the GE for a tech or a big Wonder like the Mids or GL. Its a very strong tactic with Qin, especially if you pre-chop and get that Forge up fast to run the Engineer. He can get to Chu's very fast like this, but its sort of level-dependent how effective it is. Someone was running some good looking theory test games about this, was a good thread.


More like 2 plus engineers if you can get 1 each established in 2+ cites. You would get an Eng in 30, then another in 30. You could build the mids, or HG for more Eng points. Consider this as either Greek.

brianb1974
Mar 06, 2009, 10:53 AM
I fail to see why you would ever actually beeline and hard-research MC rather than building oracle for it.

Bostock
Mar 06, 2009, 10:58 AM
You're Qin and you're feeling reeeeally lucky?

madscientist
Mar 06, 2009, 11:06 AM
I fail to see why you would ever actually beeline and hard-research MC rather than building oracle for it.

Because you can be building axes or settlers in the capital rather than the Oracle. Also you would have had to tech at least mysticism/meditation/priesthood then build the thing.

The idea here I think is to tech BW and Pottery, good enough for military and the economy, then hit MC.

Any early wonder comes at a certain price, sometimes it's not prudent such as when you have a war-monger like SHaka/Monty/Khan nearby or an easy sap like Gandhi/Liz/Fred.

One thing though, I would definitely take writing first as those extra ascientists from libraries would certainly speed MC along.

Duckweed
Mar 06, 2009, 11:18 AM
Agree on most of madscientist's opinion. In high level, you just can't get oracle without early commercial resource in BFC. AI beats you to get it through Oracle. However it is still one of the available and valuable tech for you to trade around early on. Ind leader should prioritize it.

GoodGame
Mar 06, 2009, 11:33 AM
I have to go with Iron Working > Metal Casting if you aren't industrious. And the Oracle is lucky shot or a crutch. Exception would be if your situation makes Triremes > Swords.

TheMeInTeam
Mar 06, 2009, 11:37 AM
I hate when barb galleys get in my face, but even in games like LHC MC is usually a suboptimal route. I mean, maybe if you got at least 2 of the resources for which forges add :) (although your position would obviously be strong then regardless), but otherwise it's too important to be able to get a GS, grow cities, etc. rather than build triremes and forges. IND moves MC slightly higher in my priority. Obviously it's not a bad oracle tech either since it's expensive and if had early it will trade pretty well. A beeline though? On MOST starts, it slows you down an awful lot...

Grey Fox
Mar 06, 2009, 11:41 AM
You can also bulb it if you get an early great merchant, like if you build the Great Lighthouse early.

Earthling
Mar 06, 2009, 11:49 AM
Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 :food: 4:commerce: water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

madscientist
Mar 06, 2009, 11:57 AM
Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 :food: 4:commerce: water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

At emperor I will usually trade it maybe three times. Once for alphabet and extras, a second time for Math and/or ironworking with a weaker religious techs, third CoL or currency, maybe also monarchy. What I get in return can frequently be offered for missing techs. Since there is nothing larger in beakers until Fuedalism the AI will be rather generous. Obviously if your the tech leader it's a moot point.

Duckweed
Mar 06, 2009, 01:20 PM
Metal Casting actually has a very poor trade value too... at the higher levels a lot of AI will get it even before they get alphabet (at best, it varies game to game, it is nowhere near as consistently useful as other techs). Obviously on any water heavy map Colussus is high priority, and with financial civs a 2 :food: 4:commerce: water tile is basically as good as cottages (especially if rivers are rare). These maps also can see lots of semi-isolation situations so that's a further leg up. But most games you're sacrificing land expansion/military/other tech paths, and it's just not worth it unless as mentioned it's just what you could take with the Oracle.

Actually if one AI get it from Oracle (very often this is the case), other AIs tend to ignore for a long time.

JammerUno
Mar 06, 2009, 01:35 PM
MC for industious leaders is great, extra happiness coupled to extra production and a cheap wonder that obsoletes at astro, which is far, far away when you finish it. The colossus is good economic value if you're working a good amount of decent water tiles. Freshwater lakes with the colossus are good, seafood gets better.

If you see an oppertunity to grab the oracle, and your get cheap forges, MC is as good a choice as aesthetics.

Nissin
Mar 06, 2009, 02:08 PM
Only at a low level or with an Industrious civilization via Oracle slingshot.

MadmanAtW
Mar 06, 2009, 02:27 PM
Don't forget that forges also increase the power of slavery. If I have an extremely high food map (and no marble) I am actually more inclined to get MC sooner than later because so much of my production is from whips.

Which on reflection doesn't make any sense, since if my production isn't from whips, it's from hammers which also get the forge bonus, and yet that's still how I think of it. :) Still, it would be a rare game (sea-based Civ, maybe, with a deep and abiding need for the Colossus) where I would shoot for MC the long way before getting Writing.

Krill
Mar 06, 2009, 06:29 PM
:shifty: You guys sure have some interesting opinions...

Tatran
Mar 06, 2009, 08:32 PM
You can also bulb it if you get an early great merchant, like if you build the Great Lighthouse early.
And pick Machinery as free tech from the Oracle.

mirthadir
Mar 06, 2009, 09:15 PM
MC is quite good in a few scenarios:
1. If you have high food, rep, and gold/gems/silver. If you lack religion your first increase in :) cap is at currency otherwise and that is harder to snag and takes forever to build.
2. GLH games really reward early optics/astro; beelining MC is the fastest way there. Give me an isolated coastal start and watch me try for GLH/Oracle to MC; paritcularly if I start with myst or pop it out of a hut.
3. Naval chokes. Park 3 triremes in front of an AI's cap and blockade him in. Eventually he will manage to kill all three, but not before utterly nerfing his production and likely feeding you a GG. If you get a one way cultural bridge to some jackass AI, like say Toko or wrong religion Izzy you can make vast swathes of XP and money just by raiding his coast repetitively. Sink, burn, block ... lather, rinse, repeat.
4. Guilds/engineering beelines. Early Catas vs archers and spears; wickedly fun with a good MC slingshot. Trebs before the enemy has maces or knights? Most definately. A few CRII(III) trebs and a few barrage allow you go wild with swords or pike and a few expendapults. It is far easier to trade for the construction line than for the machinery line.

troytheface
Mar 07, 2009, 10:13 AM
Use this strategy alot.

since 99 percent of the time most cities are on the coast Collossus is the superior.

workboat over wrkr sailing over wheel

SnowlyWhite
Mar 07, 2009, 10:29 AM
mad playing on marathon will value MC pretty high(barb. galleys on marathon are a total joke).

on normal, beside it's trade value when I take it from oracle, the tech is pretty dubious. Forge in small cities is meh(you need to whip 16 people to just break even - so around 12-13 given you'll produce some hammers too), colossus is pretty meh too unless a quick one with bronze for denial reason.

with industrious I agree it can be a good opening; but this blends better imho with oracle which is halfway decent chance to get as industrious even on deity(commerce and not production will be the bottleneck on oracle in most cases if you want to get a tech involving writing, otherwise, probably production will be the bottleneck and here we're talking about pottery, not writing)

Krill
Mar 07, 2009, 10:44 AM
Well, if Oracle is beelined, it can fall before Henge. Then the decision between Henge and a Forge becomes quite interesting, particularly if you want an early prophet or just plain for the denial purposes.

Not a point specific to MC, but it is valid to the idea of beelining, especially in a game dominated by civs that don't wonderwhore.

Skallagrimson
Mar 09, 2009, 01:01 PM
I tend to try tempting fate with trades of aesthetics or literature for MC as I'm usually gunning for a GL build, get a half dozen turns done toward it before the trade. Then with GL built if I couldn't get the trade at least I can "hard research" toward it faster.

DaveMurray
Mar 09, 2009, 10:59 PM
Well, if Oracle is beelined, it can fall before Henge. Then the decision between Henge and a Forge becomes quite interesting, particularly if you want an early prophet or just plain for the denial purposes.

Not a point specific to MC, but it is valid to the idea of beelining, especially in a game dominated by civs that don't wonderwhore.

If you want a realistic shot at either wonder Monarch or higher, you will need BW for chops and a food tech to run a few mines which in that case SH will be built long before oracle. If you're going to chop both wonders, you will need an optimal start with tons of trees.

Often times I find that Monarch for early HR provides a bigger advantage over the AI then having MC to trade around. Monarchy itself trades reasonably well and the happiness benefits are immediate and resource independent. You whip one archer you get one happy, pretty cool how that works. Much better then building an early forge with hammers that should be going towards libraries, barracks, courthouses, and units. Also, you'll have bigger cities then they AI in most cases which can lessen the gap between AI tech and production rates vs. your own in the very important classical era.

javidbing
Mar 10, 2009, 01:44 AM
just build heaps of scouts and hope for it to pop from a hut!! 2eze

Iranon
Mar 10, 2009, 04:39 AM
I wholeheartedly support the Oracle slingshot.

Mysticism - 50:science:
Polytheism - 100:science:
Priesthood - 60:science:
Oracle - 150:hammers:

Total investment: 150:hammers:210:science: (190 if we teched Meditation instead of Polytheism). This compares quite favourably to the 450:science: we need for regular teching, considering we get a bunch of religious techs and a GPP source thrown in - and the comparison becomes better if we are Industrious, have access to marble, or start with Mysticism.

The conversion rate is favourable; the main reason to avoid building the Oracle is having something more important to do in the tight time frame... like beating a high-level AI to good city spots, securing a higher priority wonder (Great Lighthouse on many maps) or gearing up for war.

Skallagrimson
Mar 10, 2009, 08:53 AM
Great Prophet with no religion. I suppose you can "start" a Wall Street city, or keep him forever to settle him in a conquered shrine, but... kinda displaces the GS points I prefer to accumulate instead.

Joshua368
Mar 10, 2009, 09:04 AM
Great Prophet with no religion. I suppose you can "start" a Wall Street city, or keep him forever to settle him in a conquered shrine, but... kinda displaces the GS points I prefer to accumulate instead.

Settled great prophets are pretty great in the early game, but if that's not your style then bulbing Theology is a pretty solid use for an early GP. (expecially since after the oracle route you'd just need meditation/polytheism and monotheism to do so)

erkki
Mar 10, 2009, 09:47 AM
I can get MC most of my games wiht HC if I'm playning monarch. On emperor it seems to be impossible for me. I'm usually playing on large maps with 11-13 AIs, so the map size and the number of opponents is very important thing here. People many times forget to mention these things...