Right now, I think we could use a plan. A good plan.

I didn't want to consider much about which wonders to build since we don't have the resources to build them yet. But if we don't plan ahead, we'll definitely miss out. Plus, knowing where we want to head will affect our science queue, our militaristic plans, city placement, trading, and many other areas.

Here are some options I see:

Destination: Great Library
What do we need?
- Prebuild in a dedicated city.
- Literature (and techs up to).
- Avoiding a cascade from the Pyramids.

Destination: Great Lighthouse
What do we need?
- Prebuild in a dedicated coastal city.
- Map Making.
- Again, avoiding cascades.

Destination: Colossus or Pyramids
What do we need?
- Build in a dedicated city (coastal for colossus).
- Masonry for Pyramids
- Start building ASAP.

Destination: Monarchy and/or Hanging Gardens
- (HG) Later prebuild in a dedicated city.
- Monarchy.

Destination: Militaristic Dominance
- The Wheel, Horseback Riding, Iron Working (not necessarily in that order)

Perhaps some of the options can be combined. However, I have personally had a very very hard time building one wonder on Emperor level. I have very little confidence that we can build more than one since expanding early on takes a high priority. I might even suggest we build no wonders. This means we take no risk on losing shields via cascades. We could also use the 15 or so horses that we could have built instead of the wonder...

Of the options I have presented so far, I like the Monarchy route perhaps the best. I rarely see the Hanging Gardens a high priority for the AI and I rarely see it started until after other wonders are built, meaning it is not cascaded to as easily. We also may be on a different research path compared to the AI and might have something to trade. We also would be on the way to a better government than our current despotism and would be trying a different strategy than usual.

Please present your own strategy, if it differs or is comletely new. We are at an open stage now, and I hope we can put this to a vote in the near future.

I agree with the Monarchy route. By the time we're able to use Bavaria for Wonder Building, Monarchy will be showing up. We will definately need the benefits of the HG.

I agree. Bavaria will, early on, become a large city. We will need to keep her citizens happy.

I would advocate trying to get the Great Library at all costs. We need it to keep tech reseach up. The presence, and likely close proximity of the Aztecs means that we are probably on an island, with at least one other civ, which makes the GL more useful. It's culture benefit, also, is unmeasureable.

I also think we should shoot straight for the GL. Once we have it we could even consider winding back science to zero and relying on it, and trades, to keep us in the race. It's always SWEET to have the pyramids, but it may just not be possible. I think if we can get the GL and pull back the science rate it will free up commerce to use on money adn happiness and offset the 'loss' of other wonders like the HG.

its kinda a toss up, do we go for the pyramids and its city growth ability, great library for techs or hanging garden for future. HG for me is out cause that is forward planning that we cant count on (any good plan will find a spanner in the wrong cog and BAM there goes the plan out the window). so then it comes down to city growth or techs, whats more important early on, and later on for that fact..............my vote would be for the pyramids, it lasts, gives all of our cities a growth advantage (thus expansion advangtage) and frres us some gold that can be used elseware since we wont have to support graneries.

we shooting straight to the gl. iron working is a pit stop to kill *cough* Monty and his band of Jaguars (yeesh. Sounds like im at a MacUser conference). Any ways, should we find another civ on our island (England would be nice..) we should trade tech, then kill them.

I think our #1 wonder priority should be the Heroic Epic. Culturally it's quite impressive, although not quite on a par with the Great Library, and it would make it easier for us to pursue both a militarist and wonder building strategy. In my opinion the single best way to get wonders is via Great Leaders, as it does not involve gambling huge numbers of shields and always results in at least some kind of a gain. Even if we miss the wonder we were hoping for, we will have made territorial gains, weakened our rivals and strengthened our military - all of which are good things in their own right - and with the Heroic Epic our chances of missing at all are greatly reduced.

I honestly fail to see why so many people are quite so set on the idea of the Great Library. Effective warmongering can come very close to duplicating the tech grabbing effect, and when combined with the Heroic Epic can eclipse it culturally at this difficulty level, due to the number of future wonders that can be built using Great Leaders but which would have been impossible to snag otherwise. I'm not saying we should never build the GL, but I see no compelling reason for it being anywhere near the top of our list of priorities.

Originally posted by Stuck_As_a_Mac
we shooting straight to the gl. iron working is a pit stop to kill *cough* Monty and his band of Jaguars

As the Domestic Leader, I'm trying to help us come to a consensus of where we would like to head, as a nation, wrt wonder building. I hope we can work together to work for the goals our citizens want. If the citizens want to build the GLib, I hope to work closely with you to jump to Literature. If we choose something else, I hope we can work out some compromises.

Since Iron working will take a few rounds to research, I feel we still have time to make our path. However, I still hope we can put something to a vote in the near future.

I think we need to go the military dominance route and build what ever wonders we can with the extra leaders we generate.

I am not in favor of pinning all our hopes on the Great Library.

Once again I agree with Eklektikos. The Heroic Epic is worth more than the GL to a military oriented civ.

i think the pyramids should be our top priority. the saving of money from not having to maintain granaries is a great boost for the economy. we save a great deal of time in our city production queues by not having to build them. also, the fact that the growth of the cities qucikens greatly means that they can achieve the critical size for settler building and speed our expansion.

neutral leader is a good, responsible provincial governor

We shouldn't rely on it, though. We might not get the prerequisite for it for a little while.

There are 16 civs. Some of them are building the Pyramids right now.

I don't think that we have a chance at all at the Pyramids, but I think the benefits of the Great Library are worth trying to build it. Once we have access to knights and pikemen, we will at least be able to field a decent defensive force for the rest of the middle ages, and the great library will likely give us the technology to do this. If we don't get it, we may find ourselves attempting to fight knights with spearmen, archers and swordsmen, which will likely spell the end of our nation.

I'm sorry, I was refering to the Heroic Epic. It might be a while before we have a victorious amry.

I trust that our military will find a way to have a victorious army through intelligent use of elite combatants in the skirmishes to come. I agree that HE is slightly better than Great Library if we're going the military route.

if we're going the military route

Has it been decided if we are going to be the warlords or what.... i know war with the aztecs is enivetable...... but after that do we explore, expand and dominate or what......having a militeristic civ should mean we are slightly more military orientated.....but that dont mean we are going to just go out and slaughter everything we see........

this discussion comes down to the path our nation wants to follow, if its war then the heroic epic is probably our best bet... if war aint the only answer then maybe we should see what path we want to follow and then plan accordingly

just my 2 cents (or less when its converted to australian dollars) comments??

I think we are the chosen rulers of this world and should do everything in our power to fulfil our destiny.

Originally posted by Shaitan
Once again I agree with Eklektikos. The Heroic Epic is worth more than the GL to a military oriented civ.

The only way we can get a Heroic Epic is to get an Army Victory. And we need a Great Leader first :). (Now there is going to be a conflict wth rushing a wonder with it or create an Army ;). )

I agree with Shaitan. Its our Manifest Destiny to subdue the barbarian Aztecs and any other poor backwards nation that we discover, so that we can bring peace and civilization to the world. If that means spilling the blood of these barbarians, so be it, but I think that is the best route. Therefore, I'd say GL (to keep us up-to-date with military technology) and HE (to increase the strength of our armies, the fists of our nation.) Hail Shaitan! no.... wait...... nevermind......

Originally posted by Grandmaster
I agree with Shaitan. Its our Manifest Destiny to subdue the barbarian Aztecs and any other poor backwards nation that we discover, so that we can bring peace and civilization to the world. If that means spilling the blood of these barbarians, so be it, but I think that is the best route. Therefore, I'd say GL (to keep us up-to-date with military technology) and HE (to increase the strength of our armies, the fists of our nation.) Hail Shaitan! no.... wait...... nevermind......

Both Wonders as well as a military would be a dream. However, I'm not sure if it is possible to get all 3 let alone 2. If we focus on one, I think we have the best chance to achieve it on our difficulty level. My hope is to pick a course, stick with it, and be successful at that.

Well then I'd have to say a strong military and the GL. The HE would be an added bonus if we can get to it, but I think that with our Militaristic abilities we should have no trouble getting leaders on our own. Plus, if we don't get the library and fall behind in techs, the HE won't do us much good because no matter how liekly you are to get Leaders from a victory, trying to fight of anything above a Knight with pikeman is pretty damned difficult.

I'm still advocating the HE as our primary wonder building focus, since doing so will mean we are making the most of our Civ's natural strengths rather than diluting them with aspirations of builderhood - a course of action which will serve to weaken our position versus the Emperor level AI.
I've said this before, and I'm saying it again: the best way to get wonders is through warmongering and the great leaders it produces. The second best way is to capture them, and actually spending shields on the things trails a poor third. The best way to get Great Leaders is to build the HE, therefore building the HE means more wonders in the long term. If we've been beaten to the wonders we want at any given time, we can use Great Leaders to form armies to wrest them from our foes.
On the other hand, the Great Library merely allows us to (almost) keep up with the AI in tech terms until halfway through the Medieval era or indeed slightly less than halfway, given the speed with which the AI heads for Education. Additionally, via intelligent and persistent warmongering, we can come very close to reproducing the effects of the Great Library via lucrative one-sided peace negotiations.
Also, we should consider the relative costs of the two wonders: the HE requires only 200 shields to the Great Library's 400. That's half the cost and thus twice the speed, with no risk of being beaten to the punch and finding we've wasted 30 or so turns worth of production in the chosen city.

If after reading this any citizen still believes there is a compelling reason for us to build the Great Library instead of the Heroic Epic, I respectfully request that he or she step forward and post it here. I myself can think of none.

Point taken, Eklektikos. I would suggest allowing another civ (preferably one near us) build GL and then conquer the city its in, but I now remember that the AI doesn't put the GL as a priority. Thus I have to submit to your logic: enhance our advantage with the HE, then use the added Leaders to build the GL. Plus, we should remember, w/o an AI priority on it, the GL should be around long enough for us to get a Leader and rush it (if we fight some early wars.) Point conceeded.

I think the Great Library should be the main antiquity wonder. Hopefully, the Aztecs, or anyone else nearby builds the pyramids so we can take it. ;) That would free up room for archers and swordsmen... We could use a wonder to prebuild the GL (preferably, a new one) - if not, then a palace prebuild.

i think we should build the great lighthouse allows more expansion and stuff

Interesting debate. As an outsider I'd have to reccommend the first leader whenever it comes has to become an army. Even if you don't get it till the middle ages the extra GLs will make up for any wonder you miss.

I'm siding with Eklektikos and bbaws here. Great Leaders can be very hard to get sometimes. We should use them to our best advantage. With a good strategy applied to our elites, we should obtain a Great Leader, turn that into an army, get a single victory, and build the Heroic Epic. By enhancing our chances of getting more Great Leaders, we will be enhancing our chances of getting more Great Wonders, including the Great Library. And that would be Great! :)

We really shouldn't rely on the HE. First of all, our first offensive expedition would have to be pretty darn succesful. After that, the leader needs to make his way home safely, and wait for three units to be stuck in his army. After that, the army would have to go all the way back, by which time the war will be over, and the AI's would have units superior to those of the army!

The HE is a good idea, but one we shouldn't rely on.

I beleve we should focus our attention to the Great Wonders :). We can always build Small wonders anytime (Provided we get the tech or specal conditions for them ;) )

I think the main point here is that several other civs have already started the pyramids. Without a GL the only hope of getting free granaries is conquest. If you are sucking hind tit you have to revise your aims. War and GLs plural is the quickest catchup. The plurality arrives with HE.

Admittedly if you go down the HE route your Civ just got hijacked by the Hawks. As I said it's a very interesting debate, but I don't vote.

We hawks do not hijack things.... we have enough of our own weapons that we don't need to use other peoples stuff.....

Hawks are apt to get out of hand. As I say vaguely interested observer. A press corps perhaps?
Not being targetted by the doves.
yet

Out of hand? Out of hand?! Ok, sargeant, take 'im out back and shoot 'im!....... just kidding..... maybe.

I say go for the pyramids, IF we get a great leader. mass culrure and free graneries (that don't have to be produced).
-Lord Master Zarn of the Jedi Knights.

I'm casting my lot with the MMWW crowd.

(MMWW = Military Might Works Wonders)