Wonders:

- Rammas Echor (Wall of the Pelennor) (Great Wall)
- Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +5% Gold in that city
- Durin's Tower (at the top of the Moria, where Gandalf fought the Balrog)
- The Great Fountains (of Gondolin, one great elven city)
- The Last March of the Ents (make hostile Ents randomly spawn at the map)
- The Noldolant (National Epic)
- The Gate of the Noldor (the Gate of the Elves, a secret passage to their city)
- The Arkenstone (a very valuable gem of the dwarves)
- Henneth Annun (a refuge and outpost of Gondor)
- Palantiri (allows to build the Palantir national unit)
- The Seven Beacons
- Forge of Ãol (one great elven-smith)
- Dagorlad
- Cirith Ungol (allows to make Laracna) - personal note: not sure what this is
- The Silmarils
- Grand Leaguer (ie the siege of Angband)
- Ultimate Hoard
- Voyage of Earendil
- Saruman's Industry
- Great Armament (Ar-Pharazon's force, intended to attack Valinor)
- The Argonath
- The Houses of Healing
- Tower of Meneldur
- Mindon Eldalieva - personal note: not sure what this is
- The Seats of Amon Hen & Amon Lhaw: Removes Fog of War
- The Nine Rings of Power (National Wonder) (Required to build Mounted Nazgul Units)
- The One Ring
- Dol Guldur
- Barad-Dur
- Thangorodhrim (Towers of the evil capital in the first age)
- The White Council
- Dwarven Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +15% Gold in that city
- The Seven Dwarven Rings (National Wonder)
- The Three Elven Rings (the same, but doesn't get controled by sauron - they removed the rings before he could do so)
- Elven Flet: +10% Defence in all Cities (or Unique Building as suggested by Berenthor)
- Statue of Manwe
- Trees of the Valar
- Orthanc (Tower of Isengard)
- Lake City (Esgaroth)
- The Hornburg (Helm's Deep)
- The White Tree (National)
- The Shire (National, allows to make Hobbits)
- Silverdome Temple (of Numenor, as previously mentioned)
- The Lay of Luthian (Heroic Epic)

Alignment Wonders: (Only buidable by the required Alignment)

Civilization Wonders: (Only buildable by the required Civilization) - note: Every Civ should have at least one of these (or more) or some other bonus to compensate.

National Wonders: (Buildable by Anyone)

World Wonders: (Buildable by Anyone)

Projects:

Search for the Entives: Ents are no longer Hostile. You may now build Ents (National Unit: 3). Requires: Last March of the Ents to have been built. (Other Bonuses to be determined).

I will move/add/remove wonders as discussion develops. We can also then add/remove bonuses as seen fit.

Besides your three wonder categories there should also be a alignment category.

The list is pretty good, the Noldolant is a poem about the fall of the Noldor (attack on the Teleri) IIRC

Ah, I thought it sounded familiar, but I just couldn't place it.

Added Alignment Wonder category, as suggested by Sengir.

I like them although some shouldn't be national wonders (like the white tree or something). I think they are to specific. I like the list in general. Maybe we should see how the ring concept could work.

All need to be discussed, so that we can get bonuses for them. Most of those are from the older lists from the first run at this and from the Updated list Sengir made in the Features thread.

I made some hard decisions and modified the list. Let me know what you think. This is really hard unless we want to make all but a very few buildable only by the originals in Tolkiens' work.

Otherwise only a very few would get access to certain ones such as:

Shadow type Wonders only buildable by Shadow Civs.
Dwarves get the Dwarven Mithril Mine

We could go another route as well:

If we want only Evil Civs to have Ringwraiths/Nazgul - link it to a tech and alignment.
Same with the Great Eagles.

Other than that, let any civ Build any wonder. Even if it means they get both Mithril Resources or Gondor builds Barad-Dur. Just give each wonder generic bonuses and don't link Units to Wonders.

I am thinking this might be the best route to go. An open game where only very few things are limited by Alignment. Otherwise we will have to make up a huge amount of Wonders to make it fairly balanced for each Civ.

So, let me know what you think.

Option #1: Just have National and World Wonders.

Option #2: Have many Wonders specifically divided out by Alignment and Civ.

My suggestions:
Some of these really count more as Projects than Wonders, but I'm too lazy to indicate it individually.

- Durin's Tower: either some sort of recon or production bonus
- The Great Fountains: +Culture, +Happy (maybe +Health)
- The Last March of the Ents: GOOD ONLY: Your civ gets a couple Ent units
- The Noldolant: NOLDOR ONLY: National Epic equivalent (have others for other civs)
- The Gate of the Noldor: allows entrance to the city from 1 other tile instead of up to 8, only the possessor knows which tile it is
- The Arkenstone: DWARVES ONLY: Maybe should be an item, if not: Reqs Gems, +Happiness or Culture or Something
- Henneth Annun: Better Rangers
- Palantiri: Either 1. No Fog-of-war 2. Increased LOS for everything or 3. Every X number of turns you get to reveal a small section of the map
- The Seven Beacons (is this Beacons of Gondor?): Grants you a small army of your most friendly ally's (or chosen ally's) unique unit
- Forge of Eöl: ELVES ONLY (maybe SINDAR ONLY): Either EPIC production bonus or major upgrades for units built in the city
- Dagorlad: EVIL ONLY: The equivalent of Hell terrain is more useful
- Cirith Ungol: WHEN GOOD OWNS: Defense bonus in all cities, WHEN EVIL OWNS: Allows you to get either Spider units or Shelob Hero unit
- The Silmarils: Major culture bonus, IDK what else (needs to be pretty good though), Diplo penalty from all civs
- Grand Leaguer (ie the siege of Angband): GOOD ONLY: IDK if this is such a good idea, but still: All Good civs get a bunch of extra units and a major temporary diplo penalty against Evil (maybe just all Good civs declare war on the Shadow)
- Ultimate Hoard: Is this like Smaug's or Glaurung's? then: EVIL ONLY: Major Culture and Commerce bonuses
- Voyage of Earendil: We had this as a victory condition like Space Race once, IDK if that's still there. If not: GOOD ONLY: Large amount of very powerful Maia and Vala units with temporary duration -- Should be REALLY EXPENSIVE
- Saruman's Industry (maybe better as Orthanc?)
--If 'Saruman's Industry': EVIL ONLY: Big production bonuses, maybe some unit upgrades
--If 'Orthanc': WHEN GOOD OWNS: Defense bonus to all cities, WHEN EVIL OWNS: Acts like above
- Great Armament: NÚMENOR AS EVIL ONLY: Bunch of powerful sea units (maybe with some land units on board), major diplo penalty with Good civs -- Should be REALLY EXPENSIVE, especially if it gives you a whole free army and navy
- The Argonath: +Culture, maybe some bonuses involving rivers
- The Houses of Healing: GOOD ONLY: Increased heal rat
- Tower of Meneldur (do you mean Meneltarma? there was no 'Tower of Meneldur' according to Encyclopedia of Arda): GOOD ONLY: +Culture, maybe something involving religion
- Mindon Eldaliéva (tower of Ingwë in Tirion): ELVES ONLY: +Culture, +Happiness
- The Seats of Amon Hen & Amon Lhaw (combine with Argonath?): Removes Fog of War as long as the Palantíri don't

I added Projects.

You have some good ideas T F.

We really have to decide if this is going to be pretty much a mirror image of the LOTR universe when it comes to Wonder & Project Building (who can build what) or a game that can take on its own life (very few restricted Wonders & Projects).

I would like to put down as few limits as possible, but I like the idea of different effects of wonders depending on alignment.

I think we should try to make most wonders available to all (or a complete alignment) and only have a few select ones be limited to specific civs.

All right then. I'll take out all wonders and put them back in the main list. We can then discuss what should be where. Then we can go back to the topic of effects.

EDIT: Orignal Posts now reflects my statement.

I'm fine with a lot of general wonders, we'll just have to make sure they make sense (so the Elves can't build the Great Armament and the Shadow can't build the Mindon Eldaliéva). We should probably restrict more often by alignment than by civ. I would definitely like it to be way open-ended.
The Noldolantë in there gave me an idea - I think we should have some Unique National Wonders, at least by alignment if not by civ.

And do we still have the Voyage of Eärendil victory condition, or did we get rid of that?

I believe the Voyage is still in. I agree that there should be a few expensive National Wonders based on Race/Civ. We just shouldn't go overboard on the number.

I added Wall of the Pelennor (to replace the Great Wall) (It is the first on the list to easily find for you). I hope you guys like the idea.

It's a cool list, but don't make the Orthanc a wonder, make it the palace for Isengard.

Wasn't it just called the Pelennor, or maybe the Pelennor Wall? (Or wait, it might be that 'Pelennor' means 'walled' or something in Sindarin...)

And Orthanc - agreed. That's probably better than the Isengard civ not having it.

Rammas Echor was the wall surrounding the Pellenor Fields. I had it in the list of UU building for Gondor, but I like this idea better. Will the great wall have the same function as in BtS because due to the bigger concentration and amount of barbs in FFH2, it might give a civ a more distinct advantage than in BtS.

Have we actually already discussed victory conditions? I thought we hadn't even touched those, but maybe I missed it.

Victorys were barely touched on in the previous discussions before the restart.

I will change the name to Rammas Echor.

nevermind!

Stop editing your posts, your confusing me :crazyeye: :p

I put up the Machu Picchu Wonder link thinking it would be a good Racial Wonder for Dwarves, but the file no longer exists. I'll have to try and find which mod it is in again. Sorry about that. That was why it turned into a Nevermind! post, as I removed it after realizing you couldn't actually get the file.

It adds +1 Food, +1 Commerce and +2 Production to each mountian in the City Radius. It adds +1 Food and +1 Commerce to all (controlled at the time of the wonders building) Peaks within cultural borders. It also adds +1 Food and +6 Commerce to 1 Tiles in the wonder city.

I hope I remember it correctly.

I noticed it's included with his mini-mod collection so I'm downloading it right now. I think it will help us out getting the dwarves up on the mountains.

Links:
Thread about Machu Picchu mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5901624
Mini-Mod collection:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=263916

Yes, It could go along quite well with the Useable Peaks Mod I put in the feature list section.

So we are definetly going to go with a national wonder for each civ? I think that would really be cool and give flavor. But not for the very first release I think.

If it is possible, I would like to change the colour of this Wonder to White, to better represent the Wall from the Books that it represents.

- Rammas Echor (Wall of the Pelennor) (Great Wall)

I agree. I think that would actually be a fairly easy thing to do. Maybe I'll give it a shot if I have the time this weekend.

Great. Thanks for that Berenthor. I wasn't sure how difficult it would be.

I tried to make the great wall more white. This is only the first version but what do you think:

Looking good. It would be nice to get it Pure White, but I'm not too picky. :D

Still trying to make it more white but the trick is to keep the contrast of the bricks intact :). If I have an update, I'll post it.

Thanks for trying. If this works it will look great. If you can't get it pure white, that is fine. I just think that if it looks too much like the Great Wall (colour wise), then it might pull peopole out of the feel of the game. What you have done so far look good though, so don't fret too much over it.

Looks good.

Definitely looks good. I would agree that it should be more white, but hey, whatever works.

This is a version I made last night. It is a lot more white, but I think it still keeps the texture of the wall intact (brigs, etc). What do you think?

Impressive. Looks like we've got ourselves Rammas Echor :goodjob:

That's pretty good. I agree with the above post ^_^

Very, very nice work Berenthor. It looks perfect. It's a Keeper!

Rammas Echor is Finailzed!

:goodjob:

I'll post it on the ftp when I can.

What do you guys think of this national Wonder? It is called the Strategic Grain reserve.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7936953#post7936953

Looks pretty cool, but is it neccessary or fitting in LotR? I'm not sure. Also, with the bonusses it provides, it is more of a world wonder I would say.

That's way overpowered for a national wonder (no one would need granaries anymore). Even for a wonder it is a bit strong. Not too sure about it fitting Arda either.

It is fine if we don't use it. I just thought it was quite interesting. I also agree that it would be a World Wonder as it is on the scale of the Pyramids. That gave a free granary in every city to begin with didn't it?

Pyramids is all government civics are enabled. I think you mean Stonehenge which gives a free monument in every city (but that is it for bonus). I wouldn't include it in my opinion, even as a World wonder.

Pyramids gave a free granary in civ3.

Ah I did not know that, never played civ3 :blush:.

Ah, Civ3, I guess I was mistaken. I don't mind not putting it in. If we feel it is unbalanced for what we want that is fine. I only decided to show it, because I thought it was cool, so don't worry about me. :D

Core Wonders:

- Rammas Echor (Wall of the Pelennor) (Great Wall)
- Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +5% Gold in that city
- Durin's Tower (at the top of the Moria, where Gandalf fought the Balrog)
- The Great Fountains (of Gondolin, one great elven city)
- The Last March of the Ents (make hostile Ents randomly spawn at the map)
- The Noldolant (National Epic)
- The Gate of the Noldor (the Gate of the Elves, a secret passage to their city)
- The Arkenstone (a very valuable gem of the dwarves)
- Henneth Annun (a refuge and outpost of Gondor)
- Palantiri (allows to build the Palantir national unit)
- The Seven Beacons
- Forge of Ãol (one great elven-smith)
- Dagorlad
- Cirith Ungol (allows to make Laracna) - personal note: not sure what this is
- The Silmarils
- Grand Leaguer (ie the siege of Angband)
- Ultimate Hoard
- Voyage of Earendil
- Saruman's Industry
- Great Armament (Ar-Pharazon's force, intended to attack Valinor)
- The Argonath
- The Houses of Healing
- Tower of Meneldur
- Mindon Eldalieva - personal note: not sure what this is
- The Seats of Amon Hen & Amon Lhaw: Removes Fog of War
- The Nine Rings of Power (National Wonder) (Required to build Mounted Nazgul Units)
- The One Ring
- Dol Guldur
- Barad-Dur
- Thangorodhrim (Towers of the evil capital in the first age)
- The White Council
- Dwarven Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +15% Gold in that city
- The Seven Dwarven Rings (National Wonder)
- The Three Elven Rings (the same, but doesn't get controled by sauron - they removed the rings before he could do so)
- Elven Flet: +10% Defence in all Cities (or Unique Building as suggested by Berenthor)
- Statue of Manwe
- Trees of the Valar
- Orthanc (Tower of Isengard)
- Lake City (Esgaroth)
- The Hornburg (Helm's Deep)
- The White Tree (National)
- The Shire (National, allows to make Hobbits)
- Silverdome Temple (of Numenor, as previously mentioned)
- The Lay of Luthian (Heroic Epic)
- The Grey Havens
- Ring of Isengard
- The Barrow Downs
Suggestions for Civ/Race Wonders: - Some are not filled in as I am not sure what to give them.

Quendi:
- The Three Elven Rings (the same, but doesn't get controled by sauron - they removed the rings before he could do so)
- Great Fountains of Noldolin
- The Noldolant (National Epic)

Noldor: House Of Fingolfin:
- The Gate of the Noldor (the Gate of the Elves, a secret passage to their city)

Noldor: House Of Finwe:
- Forge of Ãol (one great elven-smith)

Teleri:
- The Grey Havens

Sindar:
- Elven Flet: +10% Defence in all Cities (or Unique Building as suggested by Berenthor)

Vanyar:
- Trees of the Valar

Men:

Numenor:
- Great Armament (Ar-Pharazon's force, intended to attack Valinor)

Arnor:
- The Shire (National, allows to make Hobbits)

Gondor:
- The White Tree (National)
- The Seven Beacons

Edain:
- The Lay of Luthian (Heroic Epic)

Rohirrim:
- The Hornburg (Helm's Deep)
- The Seven Beacons

Northmen:
- Lake City (Esgaroth)

Dunlendings:
-

Isengard:
- Ring of Isengard
- Orthanc (Tower of Isengard)
- Saruman's Industry

Haradrim:
- Citadel Of Umbar

Easterling:
-

Angmar:
- The Barrow Downs
- The Coming Of The Witch-King

Shadow:

Mordor:
- Barad-Dur
- The Nine Rings of Power (National Wonder) (Required to build Mounted Nazgul Units)
- The One Ring

Angband:
- Thangorodhrim (Towers of the evil capital in the first age)

Khazad:
- The Seven Dwarven Rings (National Wonder)
- Durin's Tower (at the top of the Moria, where Gandalf fought the Balrog)

Longbeards:
- Dwarven Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +15% Gold in that city

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
- Dwarven Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +15% Gold in that city
Evil Wonders:

- Dol Guldur
- Cirith Ungol

Good Wonders:

- Last March of the Ents
- The White Council
- Silmarils
- Statue of Manwe
- Voyage of Earendil

Open Wonders:

- Rammas Echor (Wall of the Pelennor) (Great Wall)
- Palantiri
- Mithril Mine: 1 Mithril Resource, +5% Gold in that city
- Henneth Annun (a refuge and outpost of Gondor)
- Dagorlad
- Grand Leaguer (ie the siege of Angband)
- Ultimate Hoard
- The Argonath
- The Houses of Healing
- Tower of Meneldur
- Mindon Eldalieva - personal note: not sure what this is
- The Seats of Amon Hen & Amon Lhaw: Removes Fog of War
- Statue of Manwe
- Silverdome Temple (of Numenor, as previously mentioned)

For the haradrim maybe the Citadel of Umbar or the Haven of Umbar as a national wonder. Can only be build in a coast city. Also, the one ring and nine rings of power would be a wonder for Mordor and Coming of the Witch-King would be a wonder for Angmar. The seven dwarven rings should be limited to the dwarves if we are going to put them in. The elven rings only for the elves.

We might also want to limit some wonders to good and evil to seperate them even further. Although looking at the list, a lot might really be better as national wonders such as Silverdome Temple or the arkenstone.
Good:
Last March of the Ents
Palantiri
Silmarils
White Council
Statue of Manwe
Voyage of Earendil
Great Fountains of Noldolin

Evil:
Dol Goldur
Cirith Ungol

I would suggest to have four types of wonders:
- Civ specific wonders
- Groups of civ specific wonders (i.e. Rohan and Gondor can both build the Beacons or all quendi can build the great fountains)
- Allignment specific wonders
- Open wonders

Updated my aove lists with your suggestion Berenthor. Good Work.

Are we going to differentiate between Projects and Wonders (even just in name)? There are some things up there that sound more like they should be called Projects than Wonders (like Last March of the Ents, etc).

I agree. I haven't differentiated anything in that list as of yet however. If you would like to come up with some suggestions go right ahead. I believe the Rings would all be projects myself. Of course the Ent ones as well.

I'm not sure what these wonders cost and what they do, but it seems like a nice list. Are there too many? I guess if a lot of these are national or restircted to certain powers, it isn't too bad, but if therea re too many 'great wonders' they lose some of their appeal.

Why are the palantiri good only? Sorry, maybe I just don't know the lore well enough but it didn;t seem to me to be anything about their nature that requires them to be 'good'.

Best wishes,

Breunor

No, good points made. The Palantiri are good I suppose because they were brought out of Numenor by Elendil. I think we might have something special planned for them anyway in the other Forum.

AFAIK, the Palantíri were gifts from the Valar to Númenor. The Master Palantír was at Tol Eressëa.

I'll see if I can get a projects/wonders list up tomorrow sometime.

AFAIK, the Palantíri were gifts from the Valar to Númenor. The Master Palantír was at Tol Eressëa.

I'll see if I can get a projects/wonders list up tomorrow sometime.

I don't think so, I think the Palantir's were created by the Nolder while in Valinor, I think by Feanor? They were given to the Numenoreans (by Gil-Galad). Therefore, I think they are a function of Feanor's crafting skill, not of 'good'. Their impact on Pippin would also indicate they aren't necessarily 'good'.

Ok, I looked it up, here is a reference:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Palantir


Best wishes,

Breunor

Ah, you're right then. I agree maybe they shouldn't be 'good', though they were intended to be used for good they were apparently easily used to corrupt.

Ah forgot about that, than maybe we should move the palantiri to the open wonders section so everyone can build them. Maybe we should move the siege of angband to the good civs. Also, I would like some more evil wonders to balance them a little. If you look at the list of open wonders, some really don't fit for both good and evil in my opinion like the healing houses for example. But moving to many will give us almost no open wonders. What are you're ideas?

Palantiri moved to Open Wonders.

What about the siege of Angband? Should we move more of the more specific wonders to their respective civs or allignment? Do you still have ideas about evil wonders?

I'm really not sure. If we restrict Wonders and such too much, then people might not like it as much. We might be going too far. I just can't say.

I agree with what your saying. The only problem is that some really don't fit for some civs like the Siege of Angband for evil/shadow civs is very wierd. I don't know. Otherwise just leave them as is.

Perhaps, instead of so many specific Civ Wonders, we have more Alingment based Wonders. Maybe only 1 Wonder per CIV, then a few Open ones, then a bunch of Alingment based ones. Except for Isengard. Being a single city civ, they could have the three specific for them already discussed. That is an idea or we could divide them up more.

We could also leav it completely open for a truly random game expect for just a very few, like The Seige of Angband and the Rings Projects, Dwarven Mithril Mines, etc.

Perhaps 'Restrict Wonders by Alignment' could be a game option on the Custom Game screen which would be automatically checked.

I'm not sure if this would be a 'wonder', but are we doing anything for the Dead Men of Duharrow? They were neat in the books, and fore poeple who learned LoTR from the movies, they are even more prominant. Could they be a 'Aragorn only' type wonder?

Best wishes,

Breunor

I have thought about this. Not sure how it would be implemented though.

I think the oathbreakers would really be cool to have in the mod but like xmen said it would be tricky to limit it. We could make it something for Gondor and Arnor though (since the oad could be summoned by a descendant of Isildur which all leaders from Gondor and Arnor in this mod are). The question would be what would the oathbreakers do because I would like something more limited that they won't stay forever. Maybe they can only be summoned ones and die after a number of turns. Another possibility is to do something with a civ specific event which randomly chooses if they fight for you now (and answer the call while they are still human) or that they refuse and you can curse them and at a later point call upon them (in the way a word spell works for example but than only activated after a certain while). Maybe even add another option with benefits if you do not curse them if they refuse.

All good ideas, Berethor!

I was thinking they could be used by the Aragorn leader if possible; otherwise, it is Gondor or Arnor liek yous ay. They would be a late game ritual or wonder. Ideally, they would be triggered by something bad in the past, but I think this idea is too hard to make work in practice.

My idea was similar to your first one, that they are a powerhouse unit that are only around a few turns; or possibly, that they are (from a programming standpoint) a one use item like the healing salve in FfH. I was thinking their ability would be to be a stack attack (from a programming standpoint, like a crown of command or pillar of fire from Chalid in FfH) but more powerful as a one use item.

I don't think it is hard to incorporate them. I think the harder part is balance, if Aragorn or Gondor can get it, what do other players get to compensate?

Best wishes,

Breunor

Maybe it could be a project that lets you remove one, maybe 2 units from the game (to make it significant enough perhaps the unit has to have strength over a certain level) and after a certain number of turns (say 100) you could bring them back with another project. They would exist until the turn they fight a battle, and they can fight up to say 3 times on that turn. Every fight for them would be a guaranteed victory. At the end of the turn they would vanish forever.

I think you shouldn't limit it to Aragorn, it should be available to all Arnor or Gondor leaders (and should be a World Project).

That would be interesting. I think we should exempt Hero & King Units from the autovictory though. But that is just me.

Agreed, that would be a bit more than fair.

Maybe it could be a project that lets you remove one, maybe 2 units from the game (to make it significant enough perhaps the unit has to have strength over a certain level) and after a certain number of turns (say 100) you could bring them back with another project. They would exist until the turn they fight a battle, and they can fight up to say 3 times on that turn. Every fight for them would be a guaranteed victory. At the end of the turn they would vanish forever.

I think you shouldn't limit it to Aragorn, it should be available to all Arnor or Gondor leaders (and should be a World Project).

This sounds very interesting!

Best wishes,

Breunor

Hello, everyone.

Just an LotR enthusiast suggestion:

I'm not sure if it was mentioned or not, but it would be nice and fitting to have famous Dwarven smiths's forges or mines as their National Wonders. I'd have to go look for them in the lore, but I'm almost certain there was a great Dwarven smith that taught Ëol some stuff.

Anyway just a thought.

That might be a good idea.

Indeed. Perhaps that for one Dwarf civ, and a Dwarven Hoard for the other.