View Full Version : Best UB for OCC?


Jaaboo
Mar 11, 2009, 12:43 PM
Reading the unrestricted leaders thread made me wonder about an OCC - if you were going to play an unrestricted OCC, which Civ would you choose, and would you choose based on the unique building?

Some that come to my mind:

* Salon - yeah I know, its an artist, but a specialist is a specialist and GPP is GPP. And you're going to build an Observatory anyway.
* Forum - more GPP, but a market isn't an common build in a OCC (it can be helpful in upgrading units, I guess).
* Baray - Not sure about this but an Aqueduct is on the build order anyway and more food = more specialists
* Research Institute - Comes so late though...

r_rolo1
Mar 11, 2009, 12:49 PM
The Korean UB may be helpful too. Extra 10% in research is quite useful.

Soirana
Mar 11, 2009, 12:49 PM
Garden? Two extra health.

TheMeInTeam
Mar 11, 2009, 12:52 PM
Possibly apothecary is worthwhile for health too but probably the baray is most consistently best?

nanomage
Mar 11, 2009, 01:12 PM
baray is 1/2 spec.
salon gives you 1 whole spec, and russian lab 2 specs.
they are later though.

BARBEERIAN
Mar 11, 2009, 01:17 PM
I'd go for the Korean UB too, since the extra research is nice. The Baray is a close second.

michmbk
Mar 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
Some of the ones mentioned earlier would make sense to me too. SOme other alternate thoughts:

Depending on your win condition - if going space, maybe the shale plant for production or a levee if you're working 5-6 water tiles?

If you're trying for a beat down and have horses, maybe ger for extra experience for horses (of course, I'm so partial to Mongolia in general for the joy I get playing them). I need to try an OCC with Mongolia with horse in the BFC to see if it works.

Jaaboo
Mar 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
I should have added a poll. I forgot about Korea's university. So... let's see if I have my numbers right in rough order of techs;

[Mathematics] Khmer Baray: +1 :food: (1/2 a specialist)
[Currency] Roman Forum: +25% :gp:
[Construction] Babylonian Garden: +2 :health:
[Education] Korean Seowon: +10% :science:
[Guilds] Persian Apothecary: +2 :health: (= +4 :food:?)
[Astronomy] French Salon: +3 :science: and +3? :gp:
[Superconductors] Russian Research Institute: +12 :science: and +6 :gp:

Of those, each of those buildings you'd normally build in an OCC except the Market and the Colosseum. The Lab comes veeerrry late in the game but probably at a point when every last :science: is appreciated trying to grind out a space ship.

I dunno looking at when these come in, the Apothecary and Garden look nice - health is a limiting factor - right up until you get Biology. I'd have to say the Seowon or the Salon are the winners. I suppose with a high food start and a leader like Peter of Persia you could forgo the Park.

JammerUno
Mar 11, 2009, 03:04 PM
10% extra science vs. 2 specialists until biology? Give me the health buildings any day.

The madrassa deserves consideration as well (as does the monument) since you can run 4 specialists from writing onward, and you're not forced to take CoL early. That in turn lets you take the aesthetics, lit, drama, music path earlier.

Joshua368
Mar 11, 2009, 03:06 PM
Why wouldn't you want to build a market in an OCC?

What, you never get Great Prophets?

michmbk
Mar 11, 2009, 03:13 PM
I was thinking the same as josh - at some point markets cost like 3-4 turns to build in an OCC, and I often have 1-2 settled prophets since I take more of a wonder approach in those. The extra gold helps for US rush buying later, which can be huge in an OCC under many victory conditions.

Matthew5117
Mar 11, 2009, 03:30 PM
What about the Dike? On water maps that would be ridiculous considering you can have 5 wonders of whom some of them can drastically factor your production.

popejubal
Mar 11, 2009, 03:40 PM
Sacrificial Altar.

Even in an OCC, I'm going to :whipped: when the time is right.

mirthadir
Mar 11, 2009, 03:57 PM
The Mint/Brokerage/Mall are all useful as well. An early shot at Confucianism can lead to a nice shrine. Mounds of gold come in useful for rushbuying things and for getting trades with the AIs.

My personal vote:
Seowon for the early game
Shale for the late

I like the NP/Nat Epic/Oxford shot for OCC so early game I'm not going to have stupendous amounts of spec slots required. Seowon gets me to Biology faster, this is good.

Shale let's me power sooner and have bonus hammers.

Jaaboo
Mar 11, 2009, 05:00 PM
Well the market isn't on the top of my list to build. I suppose that's pretty dumb because building it sooner means more upgrade cash later on.

pi-r8
Mar 11, 2009, 05:00 PM
i'd go with the health buildings... i always have trouble getting enough health in a OCC

mirthadir
Mar 11, 2009, 05:37 PM
i'd go with the health buildings... i always have trouble getting enough health in a OCC

That is the wonder of going NP in OCC. You get a metric ton of specs, you have no health worries between the NP itself and your masses of forests. Going Rep/Enviro gives you extremely good research. The only downsides are a slow early game, the loss of some of the IWs bonus, and the extra techs needed to power the place.

JammerUno
Mar 11, 2009, 05:57 PM
The shale plant doesn't require coal either, does it stll work when you have the NP in your city?

popejubal
Mar 11, 2009, 06:03 PM
The shale plant doesn't require coal either, does it stll work when you have the NP in your city?

It absolutely does. Shale + Factory + National Park = :love:

Being able to actually use all of your production because you're not being drowned in :yuck: is a wonderful thing.

Agramon
Mar 11, 2009, 07:03 PM
Why does the madrassa get so little votes? 2 GS + 2 GP for writing, isn't that supposed to be helpful?

pi-r8
Mar 11, 2009, 07:04 PM
That is the wonder of going NP in OCC. You get a metric ton of specs, you have no health worries between the NP itself and your masses of forests. Going Rep/Enviro gives you extremely good research. The only downsides are a slow early game, the loss of some of the IWs bonus, and the extra techs needed to power the place.

True, I don't think I've ever tried it with the NP. Giving up the ironworks is :sad:. And how on earth do you avoid chopping for the first, oh, 200 turns of the game?

JammerUno
Mar 11, 2009, 07:59 PM
You marvel at the health they are giving you. Work the 12 best tile in the BFC while you sprint to liberalism, and make sure there's plenty of food around.

Iranon
Mar 11, 2009, 09:14 PM
I'm quite partial to the Research Institute myself... OCC games typically last long enough that I'll get some decent use out of it (in regular games, I want something that gives me a head start to something gamebreaking like a Renaissance bloodbath or corporations).

Of the earlier non-situational buildings... maybe the forum. Happiness trouble can be solved for good soon enough, and the importance of health varies wildly from game to game.

CivCorpse
Mar 11, 2009, 11:21 PM
The Rathaus of course.

mirthadir
Mar 12, 2009, 12:10 AM
Why does the madrassa get so little votes? 2 GS + 2 GP for writing, isn't that supposed to be helpful?

Because it requires food for those slots; food I'd rather devote to cottages or to growing trees. Slots are worthless if you can't feed them.

True, I don't think I've ever tried it with the NP. Giving up the ironworks is . And how on earth do you avoid chopping for the first, oh, 200 turns of the game?
Depends on the setup. Two food resources just means lots of whip for everything but wonders, wonders get to work the best tiles out there. Resources do get used.

The big thing is diplomacy, either from religious meddling or sucking up. Keep the AI at each others throats. The other thing is that you can safely chop outside of the BFC; sure you don't get as many :hammers: but getting rid of pretty much all unhappiness and unhealthyness issues for the rest of the game is huge.

Also you can still use the IW, you just no longer get the bonus for coal. Running mass engineers/priests (preferably with AW) actually gives you a shot at a long enough nuke monopoly to irradiate the world. Then you can tech to space at leisure.

Gwynnja
Mar 12, 2009, 12:18 AM
If unrestricted leaders: Forum
if restricted leaders: Obelisk

Jabah
Mar 12, 2009, 12:25 PM
How do you rate the german "Assembly Plant" with its 4 possible Engineer Slots ?

popejubal
Mar 12, 2009, 01:34 PM
True, I don't think I've ever tried it with the NP. Giving up the ironworks is :sad:. And how on earth do you avoid chopping for the first, oh, 200 turns of the game?

Even with no forests at all left and without the benefit of Coal for the IronWorks, it's still a good deal with OCC. How often do you actually end up with coal in your available resources? With just 3-5 health resources at most, health is going to be an enormous problem. NP solves that very nicely (again, even without forests).

If you don't have coal, then you're not missing anything by losing power in your city anyway. If you're playing Japan, then you can actually get power back through the Shale Plant. I'll actually have to give that some props as the best UB for OCC just because Factories are so amazing with power and so very not-amazing when you don't have power.

If you do happen to have Forests left, then NP can even take care of enough of your :) needs that you might even be able to skip Globe Theatre too, but early chops are valuable enough to make dropping forests worthwhile even when you know it will cost you specialists later in the game.

assass1n
Mar 12, 2009, 01:37 PM
The Rathaus of course.

What's that gonna do in OCC ? :lol:
Forum/Ball Court
Baray/RI - IInd Tier

popejubal
Mar 12, 2009, 02:15 PM
What's that gonna do in OCC ? :lol:


That's because Civ Corpse is not using the latest patch, so he doesn't know that the Rathaus no longer gives the Rat resource.

Rat: +1:yuck: and +1:food: per city, extra +1:food: for dwarven Civs. All Dwarf units gain March when built in a city with Rat resource.

Jaaboo
Mar 12, 2009, 02:26 PM
Dwarf

So, Napoleon of the Holy Roman Empire then?


Edit: Maybe
Rat
would have been funnier.

UWHabs
Mar 12, 2009, 04:51 PM
The key in a OCC is that chopping really isn't that useful early on. You don't need to waste time building settlers or workers (save for 1, maybe 2). And really, except for probably the Pyramids, I don't think any of the early wonders are really essential for survival. If you miss out on them, so be it.

Plus, you're not going to be able to grow due to happy/healthiness past size 10-12 anyways for a long time, so it doesn't hurt to leave 10 or so forests in your BFC. Even if you only leave 6, that's still 14 other theoretically useful squares. Not worth chopping out many turns of free health and free specialists just to grab an extra few hammers.

Now, the forests outside of the BFC, that's another matter.