Is it possible??? Discuss your opinions.

No. Next question.

I really really hate the "China did or was capable of doing everything before the rest of the world did/was" circle jerk.

I don't have time for a long answer, but the simple answer is: no. One of the things that allowed the Industrial Revolution to get off the ground in Europe and the US when it did was the Agricultural Revolution before it, that created a large surplus of unemployed people who flocked to the cities looking for work. They lost their jobs because primitive automation of agriculture made it possible to harvest more with less people. It is considerably more difficult to machinize rice cultivation, because it is so markedly different from, say, wheat or corn cultivation. This is still a huge problem today, as much of East Asia is still growing rice the exact same way it has for two thousand years.

You asked the wrong question. The Chinese were moving towards industrialization during the Song Dynasty, which was ended in the 13th century by the Mongol conquest. The economy of the Song Dynasty was vibrant enough to have many parallels to a nascent industrialized society. Later Chinese dynasties focused more on defense of their borders from outsiders.

Just a speculation thread.

Ming had already recovered/expanded on Song's economics. Check economy of the Ming dynasty and economy of the Song dynasty on wikipedia.

This is still a huge problem today, as much of East Asia is still growing rice the exact same way it has for two thousand years.

The "Agricultural Revolution" already happened during Ming. 30% of the Ming population was urban, a very high rate.

That's really really ignorant. Just proves why I have to work on the economic history of China article.

Infraction for flaming. - KD

The point to remember is that in the 1500s or so, China started to close itself up and isolate itself, in such a way that it only looked upon its former achievements and more or less, stuck to older methods of economic, political, and military thought and techniques. This is the main reason why China had an extremely poor economy overall compared to the Western World until after the 1950s.

Oh and, I'm also Chinese, so I know what I'm talking about. ;)

That is a common misconception that China stagnated during Ming.

China during the Ming(1368-1644) developed heavily. In fact 1578-1644 was one of the golden ages of Chinese culture and economic development. Trade in this time amounted to 300 million taels, which is a huge amount(Ming government only took in 27 million taels in a year, and Ming CHina was largest economy.)

What is like, another Ming revisionist?

People probably don't know the trend, but I just hint:
those who are Ming revisionist and using "barbarian dynasties" to describe Mongol and Manchu dynasties, are those who comparing People's Republic of China as Manchu dynasty.

So, not historical, just pure political bashing.

Manchcity would have conquered them instead.

das wrote a timeline (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5141014&postcount=1077) (somewhat scattered through thread, first post is linked) about this. Not an Industrial Revolution, but naval commercial expansion.
Manchcity would have conquered them instead.
:lol:

If Manchu did not conquer China, Industrial revolution 1700???

No, we discussed this in all the other Chinese threads, the Manchu's could not of conquered the Ming because who ever the Ming general was he would of been on the top 10 generals of all time list and with 50 Chinese soldiers with their steel weapons and superior economy & agriculture could defeat a Panzer division.

The "Agricultural Revolution" already happened during Ming. 30% of the Ming population was urban, a very high rate.

Citation?

That's really really ignorant. Just proves why I have to work on the economic history of China article.

Don't be a dickhead out of the blue.

Infraction for flaming back. - KD

Citation?



Don't be a dickhead out of the blue.
He won't have a reasonable one, and if you'd been following his threads, you'd know it wasn't out of the blue.

The Ming dynasty did not have the capabilities of an industrial revolution. The first industrial revolution happened in Britain as a result of the agricultural revolution freeing up a massive work force, as Cheezy mentioned, whereas the Ming simply didn't have that. Also, there really wasn't any way of doing it. Rice is an inherently un-machinable crop. Now, the Ming had every capability of turning capitalist, but that in itself is very unlikely.

Also, China's sheer size precluded a revolutionary change. You'll note the so-called "Second Industrial Revolution" in the US only happened after the construction of railroads skyrocketed. China did not have railroads in 1700AD, and no real need or desire for such a transportation system. "Necessity is the mother of invention," as they say. Railroads came about in Britain due to a need to transport products around the country quickly, and innovations in their design and use came from the US, where the food supply was greatly separated from the population centres.

In China this simply wasn't the case; the staple food was rice, and it was available almost everywhere. Not only that, but rice doesn't spoil as quickly as most grains, and is much lighter. China's goods were well-dispersed, there really wasn't any need to, say, transport iron from one region to another quickly, as quite a few regions had their own mines, and those that didn't just had to wait awhile.

The Ming had nowhere near the capacity for industrial expansion of the sort that occured in Europe. Feel free to call me ignorant and quote nonsensical sources and flame me though.

Fools you have no clue what your talking about at all. Non-conquered China would've made it to the moon on the shoulders of Zheng He with his famous, legendary, and not very well known 8th voyage.

Fools you have no clue what your talking about at all. Non-conquered China would've made it to the moon on the shoulders of Zheng He with his famous, legendary, and not very well known 8th voyage.
Don't be ridiculous. Zheng He was already living in a city on the moon at the time.

Don't be ridiculous. Zheng He was already living in a city on the moon at the time.

I heard thats where they filmed the fraud moon landing.

I heard thats where they filmed the fraud moon landing.

Actually, the moon landings were all staged on Mars.

I heard thats where they filmed the fraud moon landing.
They filmed the fake moon landing... On the moon? :confused: :goodjob:

You just made my day. I guarantee that will be used by conspiracy theorists at some point.

That's really really ignorant. Just proves why I have to work on the economic history of China article.

Maybe you need to learn economics before you start.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=310279

Maybe you need to learn economics before you start.
And history, debating, the forum rules, respect for others, humility...

Wish I could read that essay, my Adobe aint that good.

Discussion just about ended.

Thread closed.

Guys, pls stop spamming in history. You can choose to ignore/report the posts instead.