Current as of: March 15, 2010

To those coming here for the first time. The following threads are out of date:

Arda Mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213380
Debug: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213388
Status: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237209
Timeline (Progress Reports): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=245802
This is for Discussion Status.

* Note: This does not mean that Modding is not taking place. It just means that the discussions are not Finalized. Modding is underway.

* Note: We are using FFH2, Patch .40z as a Base for this Mod.

*Note: Unless the thread has been posted in this year, it is not considered current and may not be part of our discussions.

* Note: These discussions are not Finalized.

Discussions:

Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313835

Buildings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314357

Unique Buildings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282270

Unique Units: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=312822

Barbarians & Animals: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=316495

Alignment/Religion Tech Tree: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315700

Wonders/Projects: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313430

Unique Powers/Traits/Civics: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313223

Events:

Promotions: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7951173#post7951173

Maps: * Arda Maps are under consideration for a first release.

Scenarios: * They are under consideration for a first release.

Top Secret: * You'll find out at release or just prior to release. Some stuff planned for later releases. Let your imaginations go wild!

Maybe add links for the discussions that are currently being held? That might be handy for reference.

Done!

Once we have one finalized we should stop using that thread (post a note in it to state it is no longer being used) and start a new thread about the new topic.

Sounds like a good idea. I would actually like to know who we have in the project as modders. I can do xml and python and SDK I have never done, but I know how the language etc works so I should be able to familiarize myself if needed later on. I think the start of the project is mostly xml.

I can do xml and python, SDK if necessary (have some experience with C++ but not too much). Most things will be done at xml/python level however (looking at FFH, a lot can be done that way).

I have absolutely no experience modding. I am truly sorry about that.

Well, you are at least capable of structuring the stuff for us modders which is a great help if I say so myself.

I appreciate that. Organizing things and coming up with Ideas is something I have always been good at.

Something to keep in mind perhaps:

We sould probably avoid trying to make this project too ambitious to begin with. We should keep it fairly simple for the first release and then start adding to it with updates and new releases as we go along.

This way we can also test it out a bit more and make sure everything is working fairly early on. We also won't have to make people wait so much longer that way.

Yeah, but civs, leaders, techs, units, buildings, (easy to do) wonders are the least we should aim for. They are pretty much intertwined as well, so leaving one out will cause troubles for the others (except for wonders)

Yeah, I'm talking about advanced stuff, like Terrain changing, Equipment, Upgradable Captains, that should probably be release 2. Or sooner if it is possible.

I am just thinking about all the people that would love to see this. There are been a couple of false starts due to loss of Data (no ones fault there) and Life issues cropping up (again, no ones fault). These things happen. That is why I was just suggesting getting something out as soon as possible, without sacrificing quality. That is one of the things I hope we will be very strict on, is the quality.

City-names should be added to your list as well. Probably traits as well.

Doh! :blush:

I should have thought of the City list a LONG time ago. I'll get started on one as soon as I can.

When you say traits, do you mean Unique Powers of the Civ? I put that together with the Civics thread. I can divide that thread out however if it would be easier.

Some cities to get you started:
http://www.tuckborough.net/towns.html
Includes Illustrations :).

Thanks vdex34.

Unfortunately, my XML skillz are just good enough for me to maybe mod in a civ with a lot of work.

We need a Leaders/Heroes thread(s) next I think. Maybe also a UU/UB thread(s).

Hey guys, let me know if I am doing too much or going to fast (or not enough ;). I am doing my best to get this out quickly and accurately. I hope you like what I ahve produced in this thread and the others thus far.

Any and all comments on what I have been able to put together are more than welcome.

T F:

There is a Unique Building thread below that Sifaous started if you want to look over it and then post your thoughts. There is also one for Heroes and Equipment.

My Brain is starting to melt for tonight I think, so I am going to be calling it a night. See you guys soon, hopefully tomorrow. Have a good night! :)

No, I meant traits as in Creative/Organized. etc. It partly falls together with leader discussion, but it might be an idea to discuss traits we want to add first, and only then start assigning them to leaders.

Yes, that is what I meant for Unique Powers, sorry about that.

Ah, ok, well in that case we meant the same thing ;)

Yep, I just thought about making them more unique and specific for Middle-Earth flavour.

I've thought of something the non-coders can do: find music and art. That will be pretty time-consuming and not necessary right away, but if you someone has some sparetime, it will be gone quickly (the sparetime that is :D)

Well, we could use Music from the Movies. Art wise, I could try getting some stuff. Are we looking at using a mix of Art and Live images from the Movies (i.e. Art for Cirdan, image of Viggo as Aragorn from the movies, or just all art).

I think I would prefer all art.

Allright. I'll take a look into it if I can.

I have done a major update on the City Lists and Tech Tree. Updated Tech Tree and put in newest post.

I have the whole Complete Soundtracks to all the movies (as in every single second of music from the entire thing, including extended edition), so if you need movie music, I've got it. I can probably find it too, I've listened to a lot of it a lot. However, as things are right now I can't post any sound files, I don't know where to upload them.
We had a discussion a long time ago about diplo music, I can find it and post a list if you want. (EDIT: NVM, I have no idea where it is.)

I think all art for stuff that pops up a lot like leaderheads and stuff, but some of the wonder movies might need movie clips.

I've made an ftp-account for this mod, it can handle 3g storage, 50g monthly (roughly). Drop me a pm with your e-mail-adress if you need access to it.

Old music thread is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239711

Old sound thread for good measure:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256839

Should we start up a music thread, or combine it with a (needed) Leaders/Heroes thread?

And PMing now.

Things are starting to become quite hectic around here. I think we need a Mod Leader. Someone who can make final decisions, really no matter what anyone else thinks (though, of course concensus would be preferable).

There are at least 7 of us and we all really seem to have our own ideas on how this mod should be progressing. We need to have a final arbitrator.

We really have no finalized sections again now, except for Alignment as far as I can tell.

I personally feel that we need to have certain things sort of cast in stone to be able to proceed or a lot of Modding time will get taken up on things that will just get thrown out.

So, what do you guys think?

EDIT: I have also backed up all current lists, just in case something happens and we lose the information.

Agreed. (10chars)

Agreed.

I'm not at home tonight, but will go through the threads a bit more thorough tonight, and post my thoughts on the situation.

Agreed. We have been opening up discussions which were, in my opinion, already closed and dealt with. The vote idea is a good one to sort things out. Furthermore I would suggest maybe to make a list of exactly who can do what for the mod (programming, ideas, art, etc.) because to me that is not completely clear. Also we have to make sure we restrict the first batch of modding to a managable level, e.a. civilizations, leaders, UUs, UBs, unitlist and tech tree.

That is what I was talking about. Make it relatively simple first. Let's get the working and going. Then we start adding in further developments and upgrades/tweaks, etc. It doesn't have to be "FFH-Middle Earth" right from the get go, it can "The Arda Mod". We can just make sure to do further releases and updates as we get things done.

Yes I agree. Let's try to get the programming thing sorted out: I can do modding (xml, python and SDK should be possible). I also have some experience in setting up a project, maybe that will help. From the discussion I know Sengir can also do the modding (xml, python and SDK). The rest, I'm honestly not that sure. Please post this here, so we can get a feeling of who can do what (and ideas, art, etc. are also very important).

Agreed with all above.

I can't do much programming or art, I can do some very minor XML but not much more. I can provide music and maybe SFX, and I know the source material pretty well (I used to be totally obsessed with it).
Basically, I can contribute much more to discussion than construction, except I have music.

Ok, let's get this out.

I do agree that some kind of leader is needed. This leader should only have the final vote in case of a tie, otherwise the majority counts. After a vote, only a 2/3 majority will be enough to bring something back under vote, otherwise we'll keep voting for ever. The voting should be stuctured. While I liked the sudden voting thread, I think it's better to have a set day of the week on which votes will be held, with a timeframe of 48h, so as to give everyone the opportunity to vote (no people can say that they didn't know there was going to be a vote). The leader should be the one to put the vote up, but I think he should check with at least one other person to make sure the questions are clear (this should probably be done by pm/im).
Also, being a leader takes responsibility: the leader should be online pretty often, more then once a week. The leader should want to be a leader as well, so even though I a couple of candidates in my head, I'm not going to name them: they should put themselves forward. It is useless to have a leader who doesn't want to be a leader. That said, please don't be shy, and put yourselve forward if you think yourselve capable of it.

As we haven't got any structured voting going yet, I propose that people can put themselves up as candidate for some amount of time (48h), after which a vote will be held. I'm not sure what the best way to handle this is, some form of anonymous voting might be needed, though it might not.

(also, it should be possible to get rid of the leader :D, I propose unanimity-1)




Now for the other question:
As Berenthor mentioned, I can do xml, python and SDK, but we might want to set up a different thread for this list, and only this list.

One more thing (tm)
I'm not proposing myself as leader. I'm doing this as a way getting frustration out of my system and am not willing to be the deciding factor in discussions at the moment, that will only end up in me being more frustrated (not good, trust me on this one). Besides that, I might be moving house not to long from now (not sure yet, but I hope so), which would violate one of the rules I outlined above. Even if we decide to drop the rule, I'm going to keep it for myself ;)

The Vote thread will now be for this vote. Then it should be deleted.

I would suggest that we can put names up until Tuesday at 8pm. EST. Then the Vote will be held from 8pm EST Tuesday until 8pm EST Thursday. That gives us approximately 52 hours to submit your name. Then it gives 48 hours for the Vote.

I will leave this open for debate before Putting up the vote around 8pm EST tonight to let people have their say as to whether or not to do this.

Ok, fair enough.

One of the things that the leader should do is managing the threads: getting things stickied and keeping the discussion in the proper threads. Despite valiant efforts we seem to be getting all over the place again :D

I think Thomas is needed for that since this is his Forum (for The Arda Mod)I believe. He and Elda King were the originators of this idea.

Are you guys still interested in running the show? Or would you rather pass it on to others?

Vote thread is now updated with the VOTE! If, however, people do as Thomas has done and everyone votes before the deadline, we can call it done if everyone agrees.

GREAT NEWS!

Zerver has informed me he would love to be part of this project once again.

So, everybody. Welcome the new team member!

Zerver

Welcome Aboard! :king: :goodjob:

Well! I just figured out how stupid I am. :mad:

I finally figured out where Sengir and Berenthor were getting all of their information. Some of it mine that I couldn't find! :eek:

I only had it show the lists from the last year and not from the biginning. There is a lot of great stuff back there!

Stupid xmen510!:mad:

Now I know, and knowing is half the Battle!

Hopefully I learn from this mistake!

:blush:

Wait, what did you do wrong?

And sweet, welcome Zerver!

Look for the differences in the pictures:

http://zenodesign.nl/civsg/snapshot2.png
http://zenodesign.nl/civsg/snapshot3.png
That's the reason he couldn't find some old threads.


And welcome Zerver!

Indeed. Sometimes we green personalities overanalyze and miss the obvious.

Allright. There are a few things that need to get done before some of the others. I would like to finish off the discussion on Civs first.

What Civs, how many, more than 1 shadow, etc. We can do this in the Civ Thread.

Then:

City List (If it needs to be changed)

Units
Unique Units

Buildings
Unique Buildings

Leaders/Kings/Heroes

Tech Tree

-------

That is the order I think is best. We can still work on the other stuff, but these need to get finalized as quickly as possible.

Lets get the Civs done. Then we can move on to the Tech Tree and all of its glorious mass confusion :crazyeye:!

Another thing. I believe I mentioned this in the Civ thread, but here goes again in a clearer manner:

We should get this Mod up and working on Random Maps (as soon as possible without sacrificing quality).

Then we should start on the creation of specific Arda based scenarios where we could have the different civs and Specific Maps (i.e., Beleriand, Valinor, Arda, Middle-Earth, Numenor, etc.).

First get the Mod working, then worry about the Maps and Scenarios.

I have noticed an upsurge in people checking out this Forum. Because of this, I have posted a small note at the end of all 4 Original Sticky Threads stating that the info in them is out of date and to check out the threads dated 2009 for the most recent information.

I have also contacted Padma and she agreed to sticky the Discussion Thread and the Arda Mod Team Members Thread. This way you don't have to look all over the place. Everything that gets updated will get posted here in the end anyway, so this will be much easier for everyone. It will also be easier for the new people coming in to check us out to see who is involved.

Just thought I would share this update with everyone.

Maybe you can ask to unsticky the others so that they fall from the first page by themselves? Besides that: good work on the stickies :D

I found this in the FAQ of the FFH Forum. We now don't need to worry about using it. We just need to make sure we give proper credit where it is due. Thanks to Berenthor for reminding me to check to see if this would be alright.

Q: What is the developers' stance on usage of the artwork and modifications from FfH2 in other mods? I'm at the very start of a mod, and several of the FfH2 modifications but also artwork would fit very well there. With proper credits of course.

A: Not only is it allowed, it is encouraged! The more good mods the better. We just ask that you please credit the member that made the resource you are using.

I have still formally asked for permission however and am awaiting a reply.

Also, once we have a few things finalized we can start assigning Coding tasks.

So my preference would be to get the Civs & Alignments Finalized. The Civs are going to be quite a bit of work.

Things to do:

Which Civs are Included: Almost Done (1 Shadow or 2 Shadow Civs?)
Assign Alignments: Almost Done
City Lists: Almost Done (Depends on # of Shadow Civs)
Leaders:
King Units: Based on Leader Chosen?
Heroes:
Unique Units:
Unique Buildings:
Starting Techs:

This is what we need to get done.

After Civs and Alignments are Finalized. We then move on to the Units (+Unique) & Buildings (+Unique).

We also need to finish the Tech Tree. We need to decide on Alignment Techs & Race/Civ Techs. Then we need to assign everthing to the Techs.

We have a lot of work to do!

I have now heard back from Kael. He has given us his official blessing to use whatever we want to make this Mod work. So great news and a big shout out to:

Kael and the FFH2 Team!

Thanks for the support!

:woohoo:

:worship:
(Kael that is, not you xmen, not quite yet :D)

:woohoo:

:worship:
(Kael that is, not you xmen, not quite yet :D)

You don't have to rub it in with a double post. :( That is just cruel man. :cry:

:D you know. We really need a Dancing Banana Smilie!

:D

Eight minutes apart no less. Kinda strange.

A dancing banana you can get though:
:banana:

Nice Banana!

Has anyone else noticed this site taking up 100% of your computer resources lately? It has been horrible for me the last few days! Very long load times quite often. That could be why your post was double posted.

I hope he doesn't mind me sharing it, but here is some great advice from Elda King:

The first thing we were doing was the civs, but we messed up a bit when we made a few UUs, buildings and other things. I sugest focusing a lot, and dividing the files among everyone instead of many people editing the same file. Oh, and one of the hardest parts of civ design is the diplo files; it can crack the whole mod and requires a lot of work. I sugest using regular diplo from the game (for example, make each leader use diplo from one vanilla leader - this way is good because later you can only use Find->Replace All to change all references at once), and then replace it as you make it.
About the comps, they probably should wait a little; they are not crucial. The quest is somewhat simpler if we are using itens from FFH, I believe - it's just a matter of making one event to create them, and giving them one ability like those of Great People (build something, give culture, etc). The "selective invisibility" could be hard, but if there are no Great Spies we could use this system.
The avatars predate the idea of king units, but they really work well together. It's great because it could be used for other units as well, like Gandalf or Glorfindel. It's also probably very simple to make - simply create a counter, and then spawn a unit.

The first thing we were doing was the civs, but we messed up a bit when we made a few UUs, buildings and other things. I sugest focusing a lot, and dividing the files among everyone instead of many people editing the same file. Oh, and one of the hardest parts of civ design is the diplo files; it can crack the whole mod and requires a lot of work. I sugest using regular diplo from the game (for example, make each leader use diplo from one vanilla leader - this way is good because later you can only use Find->Replace All to change all references at once), and then replace it as you make it.


I've been thinking about this as well and seeing that this is a group effort I think a Version Control System might be called for, so that we can always access and work from up-to-date files.
The ones I know from the top of my hat are:
Subversion (subversion.tigris.org): Good, with a lot of graphical tools for the commandline challenged. The problem is however that my webhost doesn't provide the HTTP-webdav module, so I can't provide hosting myself, but there are multiple possibities for free hosting.

Bazaar (http://bazaar-vcs.org/) the vcs I'm used to work with. I should be able to get the repository on my webhost, but otherwise (or maybe even preferably) there's free hosting available at http://launchpad.net. I think there's a graphical interface available, but I haven't used it, so can't really comment on it.

And of course CVS (http://www.nongnu.org/cvs/) itself. I haven't worked with it, and don't know what is required for hosting the repository.



I'm open to other suggestions as well (even to not using it, though I think it will help us a lot).

I am going to leave these decisions of what is best to use to you who are doing the coding. I have pretty much no skill to speak of, so I am going to leave this to the more experienced among us.

I think it is a good idea to have a repository. I know CVS and SVN, they both use good graphical toolsets (I'm prefer that personnally, never really cared for all those commandline things if I could avoid it :mischief:). For the webhosting I don't know. I know it is possible, but how exactly I don't know. I have not set such a system up before.

Ok, will try to get a SVN up and running sometime this week.

I updated the Discussion Status list. It reflects the now Finalized City Lists and Civ Lists name changes.

Updated 1st post once again.

I have removed the Finalized Lists and put them in their own dedicated thread. 2 Lists Finalized in a matter of minutes, we are off to a good start today! :goodjob:

Great Job everyone. We now have 12 Finalized sections with more coming up very soon. In a matter of 3 days we were able to Finalize 5 Lists.

:goodjob:

Just 19 left to go, we are just about half way there!

Lets keep up the great work!

Updated the 1st post to reflect that the Unit list is now Finalized.

Updated 1st post with link to the Promotions Discussion.

1st post updated with a number of minor changes to reflect current status.

I hope i'm putting this in the right section but anyway, it may be worthwhile to look into the sourcebooks and the likes of Games Workshop's Lord of the Rings and War of the Ring line. Plenty of material for heroes, names of varying things and units.
The armies tend to be quite homogenous and factions like the Easterlings for instance will gain a lot from using it as a source.

That is an idea we could look at. Thanks!

Np.
If i stick to say the Easterling idea.
They based it on the appearance of the movie but expanded their background and look.
Easterlings there have archers and heavy in infantry in gorgeous golden armor (like in the movies) and Cataphracts. So basically they're a subfaction of heavy but slow troops. One of the few 'elite' factions serving Sauron. They also have some heroes. Including a new one that came out. Named and with background.

Also the Nazgul have been elaborated upon. With different powers and traits depending on their background.

Isengard, Gondor, Rohan etc all have similar treatments. The army roster is expanded visually but all suits the overall look and background of the setting.

Orcs and Goblins got some more 'heroes' too. Which may be well worth checking out.

In any case www.gamesworkshop.com should have some info. As do the sourcebooks and all. Should be possible to obtain those without too much expenditures though of course for obvious reasons i'm not going to say 'how'. We all know the answer...

Indeed, that does look good. I don't have any problem with going outside of canon as long as it's homogeneous enough.

Indeed. Plus a lot is canon or mentioned just not described visually and the likes...

Well, FFH has been patched to BTS 3.19, are we waiting for anything else?

Not sure, we will have to wait and see what Sengir and Berenthor have to say!

Well, I'll be moving house, starting about a week (planning was that we moved the end of august, but apparently somebody didn't get that notice.), so I won't be doing a lot on this mod for a while. I hope Berenthor has time, otherwise you'll have to wait for my return to get the dll up and running.

Sorry about all the delay. I have been working on some other projects in the mean time. I have been maintaining my own personal mod (for another mod as base) for about a year now, and I decided to release it here as an add-on to Legends of Revolution. Therefore I've been busy with that. I would definatly like to get the project underway again.

My proposal is actually to not include the broader allignment because it is quite some work. All the C++, python and xml has to be merged and I don't have the time for that. I propose to take the latest patch of FFH2 and merge the appropriate flavourmod version into this. We then just start changing xml so at least we have a first version. We can merge "broader allignment" into it later on when we have a first version ready.

This means we really need some people to do some work. Some people need to do xml work and some people need to deliver graphics (dds files of leaders and civilization flags). I can do the leaders and civilizations in the xml. Can someone do the buildings and someone else the units? This way we don't work in overlapping files.

Waiting on broader alignment is probably a good thing, at least to get a first version out.

I can try doing some flags, but I suck at image editing programs. Wish me luck!

I actually meant not waiting on broader allignment since I don't have the time for it. We can always merge it in later. At least we could get the xml going. That is easier for me to do in between and in parallel with other people. Otherwise we're stuck until I have it done. Just a suggestion.

Plh, I think I could have been more clear - not waiting to do anything until we get broader alignments in, but waiting to do broader alignments and instead doing other stuff.