This is the Buildings thread. It is for the Standard (Non Unique) Buildings for the MOD.

- Palisade (+5% city defense)
- Walls (+10% city defense)
- Castle (+15% city defense)
- Fortress (+20% city defense) +1 artisan slot
- Stronghold (+25% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness) (Gondor only)
- Fortified Wall (+15% city defense) (Numenor/Gondor/Arnor only)
- Wooden Tower (+5% defense)
- Stone Tower (+10% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)
- Watch Tower: (+15% City Defence, See invisible units?, +1 or +2 Tile Visiblity from city radius?) (Arnor only)


(These will give either a free promo &/or be required to built related units at all)
- Training Field
- Archery Range
- Stables
- Siege Workshop
- Docks (for building ships)

- Town Hall (-50% maintenace costs in the city)
- Market (+50% commerce in the city, +1 happiness from trade goods) +1 trader slot
- Tavern (+1 happiness, +1 happiness from Wine) +1 trader slot
- Trading Post (-10% (distance?) maintaince, +50% Foreign Trade Commerce, (only buildable in coastal cities) +1 trader slot
- Inn (+1 trade route in the city, +1 happiness, +1 Health) +1 minstrel slot
- Well (+1 Health)
- Apothecary (+1 Health, +1 with Athelas/Spices)
- Infirmary (+2 Health)
- Smoke House (+1 health from livestock stores 10% on city growth)
- Granary (stores half of the food when the city grows, +1 health from food resources)
- Lighthouse (+1 food in water tiles)
- Harbor (+1 trade route, +50% trade-commerce, +1 health/sea resouce you have access to (limited to +1 for each type))
- Archives (+3 Beakers (Science), +10% Research, +1 Culture) +1 loremaster slot
- Library (+2 Beakers (Science), +15% Research, +1 Culture) +1 loremaster slot
- Houses Of Lore (+4 Beakers (Science), +25% Research, +4 Culture) +2 loremaster slot
- Guild of Artists (+20% culture in the city, +1 happiness for each 20% of gold going to culture) +1 minstrel slot
- Guild of Minstrels (+2 culture, +1 happiness, +1 happiness/10% slider) +2 minstrel slot
- Forge (+50% production in the city, -2 health, +1 happiness for acces to Copper, +1 happiness for access to Iron, +1 happiness to access to Mithril) +1 artisan slot
- Armory (free armor promo for relevant units)
- Blacksmith (+2xp, +1 production in the city, -1 health)
- Post Office (+1 Beaker (Science), -10% war weariness, +25% trade-commerce) +1 trader slot
- Guard's House (-15% War Weariness, free City Garrison I)
- Stockade (-50% war weariness, -1 happiness)
- Statue (+1 culture)

Most of those seem good. Are we going to implement FFH's buildings-required-to-build-units concept? If so, then we need the Siege Workshop definitely.

Rest of the maybes are definite maybes.

I'd vote no to all the maybe's except the siege workshop.

Besides that, here is the list from previous attempts:


Palisade: +5% city defense, requires Wood Working, costs 40 hammers
Walls: +10% city defense, requires the Stone Working tech, costs 100 hammers, halved cost with stone, doesn't stack with Palisade
Castle: +15% city defense, requires the Siege Warfare tech, costs 150 hammers, halved cost with stone, requires Walls
Fortress: +25% city defense, requires the Fortresses tech, costs 250 hammers, requires stone, requires Castle
Stronghold: +35% city defense, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness, requires the Engineering tech, costs 400 hammers, requires stone, requires Fortress, limit of 2 per civ
Fortified Wall: +20% city defense, requires the Improved Siege Warfare tech, costs 180 hammers, requires stone, requires Walls
Wooden Tower: +10% defense, costs 100 hammers, requires Palisade, requires the Fortification tech
Tower: +30% city defense, free promo to units built in the city, requires the Fortification tech, costs 300 hammers, requires stone, requires Walls, limit of 5 per civ
Barracks: +2 XP to units built in the city, costs 60 hammers
Training Field: free promo to Melee units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Infantry Tatics tech
Archery Field: free promo to Ranged units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Sharpshooting tech
Stables: free promo to Mounted units built in the city, costs 85 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Cavalry Tatics tech
Siege Weapons Workshop: free promo to Siege units built in the city, costs 125 hammers, requires Barracks, requires the Improved Siege Warfare tech
Havens: +2 XP to units built in the city, costs 100 hammers, requires the Ship Building tech
Drydocks: free promo to Naval units built in the city, costs 130 hammers, requires Havens, requires the Naval Warfare tech
Market: +50% commerce in the city, +1 happiness from trade goods, 2 Merchants, costs 150 hammers, requires the Commerce tech
Grocer: +25% commerce, + 1 health from food resources, 1 Merchant, costs 115 hammers, requires the Trade tech
Town Hall: -50% maintenace costs in the city, costs 170 hammers, requires the The Court tech
Tavern: +1 happiness, +1 happiness from Wine, 1 Merchant, costs 115 hammers, requires the Monarchy tech
Inn: +1 trade route in the city, +1 happiness, +1 Health, costs 200 hammers, requires the Great Trade Routes tech
Well: +1 Health, costs 80 hammers
Houses of Cure +2 Health, free promo (Medic I?) to units built in the city, costs 300 hammers, requires the Healing tech, limit of 5
Granary: stores half of the food when the city grows, +1 health from food resources, costs 80 hammers, requires the Farming tech
Docks: +1 food in water tiles, costs 90 hammers, requires the Sailing tech
Harbor: +1 trade route, +25% commerce, +1 happiness from sea food resources, costs 150 hammers, requires the Navigation tech
Archives: +25% research, +1 culture, +1 happiness for each 20% of gold going to culture, 1 Loremaster, costs 110 hammers, requires the Tradition Keeping tech
Library: +25% research, +1 culture, +1 happiness, 1 Loremaster, costs 160 hammers, requires the Literature tech, requires Archives
Houses of Lore: +50% research, +2 culture, +1 happiness, 2 Loremasters, costs 250 hammers, requires the History tech, requires Library
Guild of Artists: +20% culture in the city, costs 115 hammers, requires the Poetry tech
Guild of Minstrels: +2 culture, +1 happiness, costs 115 hammers, requires the Music tech
Forge: +50% production in the city, -1 health, costs 65 hammers, requires the Bronze Working tech
Armory: +5% (?) unit production, free promo to ranged units (Extra Ammonition), costs 115 hammers, requires the Weaponry tech
Armorsmith: free promo to units built in the city, costs 100 hammers, requires the Chain Mail tech, requires Iron
Blacksmith: free promo to units built in the city, +25 production in the city, costs 125 hammers, requires the Smithing tech, requires Iron
Weaponsmith: free promo to units built in the city, costs 200 hammers, requires the Weapon Mastery tech, requires Iron, requires Blacksmith
Post Office: -50% war weariness, costs 100 hammers, requires the Trade Posts tech
Guard's House: -25% War Weariness, free promo, costs 110 hammers, requires the Vassalage tech
Jail: -25% war weariness, costs 50 hammers, requires the Diplomacy tech
Town Square: +1 happiness, costs 80 hammers (perhaps add a "Urbanization" tech?)


I really like the upgrading city defenses by buildings idea.

My list (shamelessly ripping from the other two):

Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+25% city defense)
Stronghold (+35% city defense, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness)
Fortified Wall (+20% city defense)
Wooden Tower (+10% defense)
Stone Tower (+30% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)

(These will give either a free promo or be required to built related units at all)
Training Field
Archery Range
Stables
Siege Workshop
Drydocks

Town Hall (-50% maintenace costs in the city)
Market (+50% commerce in the city, +1 happiness from trade goods)
Tavern (+1 happiness, +1 happiness from Wine)
Inn (+1 trade route in the city, +1 happiness, +1 Health)
Well (+1 Health)
Infirmary (+2 Health)
Smoke House (+1 health from livestock stores 10% on city growth)
Granary (stores half of the food when the city grows, +1 health from food resources)
Lighthouse (+1 food in water tiles)
Harbor (1 trade route, +50% trade-commerce)
Archives (+25% research, +1 culture)
Library (+25% research, +1 culture)
Houses of Lore (+50% research, +2 culture)
Guild of Artists (+20% culture in the city, +1 happiness for each 20% of gold going to culture)
Guild of Minstrels (+2 culture, +1 happiness)
Forge (+50% production in the city, -3 health)
Armory (free armor promo for relevant units)
Blacksmith (2xp)
Post Office (-10% war weariness, +25% trade-commerce)
Guard's House (-15% War Weariness, free City Garrison I)
Jail (-50% war weariness, -1 happiness)
Statue (+1 culture)

Above looks good. Some more info on what they do would be good.

Basically the same as they do in the other list... will edit it in though.

Ok, I edited my list, and changed some things from the original list. I think it makes more sense now. I haven't added the specialists yet.

Definitely looks good.

It is a good list. I think we might need to add 1 or 2 more buildings regarding Health though.

Perhaps rename Monument to Statue as well.

Good idea about the statue, about health, let's see, I've dropped the grocer, that can be added back in, Infirmary (hospital replacement) can be added as well. Well can be upped to two as well. I suddenly remember Smoke House from FFH (extra health from livestock).

EDIT: I added Infirmary, Smoke House and changed monument to statue. Didn't add grocer as I don't like the name.

Good job. I replaced my list with yours. I was wondering. Are we not going to have any religious buildings? If not, that is fine as I don't really remember any being mentioned that were not really considered Wonders.

I wouldn't do any religious buildings, don't think they make sense for Arda (barring some wonders).

As you've replaced your list with mine, I'll stop editing mine.

Perhaps Jail could be renamed. maybe call it Dungeons or something like that.

Jail can indeed be renamed, but I don't think dungeons is a good fit, it has different associations in a fantasy mod, but maybe 'Prison' will do?

Prison might be alright.

Pits for Holding Scum & Villainy sounds good to. ;)

Prison works, Infirmary is also a good idea. We might want to keep an Aqueduct or equivalent too, FFH at least has both.

And yeah, no real religious buildings fit.

I was thinking that maybe the Stronghold could also reduce the amount of collateral damage a small amount, say 5% or 10% (This will be an expensive building).

Good thinking, that makes a lot of sense (and we don't have anything in this regard yet)

So, do you think it should be 5 or 10 percent? I am also updating the list by changing Jail to Prison for now.

I would go for 10, 5 will be to small to really notice it and you will want something noticeable to build such a building with a lot of prereqs and high cost. We might want to add some more incentives to have people build the defensive buildings, as we wouldn't want them to stay unused.

Good idea. I will add in the 10% reduction of collateral damage.

As for the others. Make them as prerequisites. You can't have walls without the Pallisade, You need walls for, etc.. If the Stronghold will be the ultimate building, then perhaps it will require the city to have Walls, Towers and Fortress already built before upgrading. I don't think we should have any buildings become obsolete in this particular MOD.

Everyone else should way in too.

Is that a reduce collateral damage by 10%, or take 10% off the collateral damage (as in 20% damage - 10% = 10%)?

Agreed on Stronghold requiring everything.

I think it is as your example:

20% -10% = 10% Collateral Damage.

That's good I think, makes it a lot more potent.

They should indeed be prerequisites, but will anybody build all of them? Ah well, only time will tell.

I will, but then, I am a Builder in the game.

jessiecat has created some fantastic looking forts which could be used for our strongholds.

Images:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7887661&postcount=354

Download:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7887709&postcount=356

I have some other possible names for:

Infirmary:

Apothecary

Prison:

Stockade

Why not both Infirmary and Apothecary? I agree with Stockade instead Prison.

Sounds good.

Apothecary: +1 Health Perhaps?

I will add it in and change prison to stockade.

And another with Spices/Athelas

I will add that in now.

EDIT: Done!

Yeah, Apothecary should get an extra +health with Athelas.

Like.

The list looks good. I only am wondering about two things: nothing gives beakers only percentage bonus for research (maybe make archive only beakers). Also, isn't this a lot of research in the buildings (three percentage bonusses). A last thing about the first list of city defenses: This is a lot of extra defense. Why so many? Or will one obsolete the other? Because now stacked, this is a lot of defense bonus. Combine this with archers with city garrison (which is also provided free by a normal building) and cities become untakable. Also remember that the FFH2 system does not have ranged bombardment in it as Dale's Combat Mod has. You can only reduce city defences (and inflict collatoral damage with units while attacking) but you can't bombard units from outside.

I think perhaps that the better version should obsolete the older one, but that you should be required to build the older one first.

You are right on the science area. I'll try to think of something.

That seems like a better idea to do that. Maybe move the houses of lore to be the great sage building and make the archive 2 or 3 beakers instead of the percentage bonus (or both but reduce the percentage bonus).

Also, if I look at the list for fortifications, than maybe we can have two buildings: tower and walls and you can upgrade both (obsoleting the other). It might also be easiest to just reduce the percentage the buildings give and then the old ones don't need to be obsoleted, they accumulatively give the higher value if you count them all up. Also they can still require the other walls or towers to be build first.

What is the "Great Sage" building? Is it a renamed Great Library?

Archives: +3 Beakers, +10% Research, +1 Culture
Library: +2 Beakers, +15% Research, +1 Culture
Houses Of Lore: +4 Beakers, +25% Research, +4 Culture (I believe this was a replacement for the University).

Also, if I look at the list for fortifications, than maybe we can have two buildings: tower and walls and you can upgrade both (obsoleting the other). It might also be easiest to just reduce the percentage the buildings give and then the old ones don't need to be obsoleted, they accumulatively give the higher value if you count them all up. Also they can still require the other walls or towers to be build first.

I will work on this next.

That seems like a better idea to do that. Maybe move the houses of lore to be the great sage building and make the archive 2 or 3 beakers instead of the percentage bonus (or both but reduce the percentage bonus).
Yeah, % bonus should probably max out at 50% total, beakers instead of % works for me.
I think Berenthor means the Academy with the Great Sage building.

Also, if I look at the list for fortifications, than maybe we can have two buildings: tower and walls and you can upgrade both (obsoleting the other).
I like this.
It might also be easiest to just reduce the percentage the buildings give and then the old ones don't need to be obsoleted, they accumulatively give the higher value if you count them all up. Also they can still require the other walls or towers to be build first.
That would be a lot clearer probably.

Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+20% city defense)
Stronghold (+25% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness)
Fortified Wall (+15% city defense)
Wooden Tower (+5% defense)
Stone Tower (+10% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)

That becomes a total of +105% from Buildings. It was 150%, so i was able to drop it 45%. Is that good, or would you like it lowered more?

I think Berenthor means the Academy with the Great Sage building.


We renamed the Academy the "Sage's Library" earlier. Did you want me to rename it agian?

Another Idea:

Post Office (+1 or +2 Beakers, -10% war weariness, +25% trade-commerce)

I added the 1/2 Beakers to the Post Office, because you would be able to spread out and share the knowledge more quickly, easier to keep up on research happening elsewehere type of thing.

Also, do we like the name "Drydocks" or should it be shomething else, like "Shipyard" or some other name?

I like the name shipyards or docks better. It shounds better for the mod context than drydock. I actually posted something like a shipyard as a building only the shipmaster civs (Teleri & Numenor) should get so maybe call the original one docks and than shipyards for these two civs as a better building that adds something (but not an upgrade for the original one). To get back to the fortifications, the total is good now I think. I don't even know what it is in FFH or BtS in total. Maybe we can make this into three paths for defenses for a city:

pallisade --> walls --> fortified walls
castle --> fortress --> stronghold (castle still needs walls)
wooden tower --> stone tower (--> watch tower)

We could also say that some things are only available through the Numenor and Gondor advanced construction tech (maybe stronghold and fortified walls) and then we add for Arnor the watchtower tech that gives you access to the watchtower as an upgrade for the stone tower. This way for normal civs the max defense bonus is lower for the cities but for certain civs it is higher like for Numenor and for Gondor and Arnor (although maybe we can increase line of sight too with the watchtower or something).

Training Field
Archery Range
Stables
Siege Workshop
Drydocks

We still have to decide what to do with the above Buildings. It was suggested that they be required to build certain units (I agree) and that they possible give a free promotion to those units (I like this idea instead of giving said units Bonus XP).

I like the name shipyards or docks better. It shounds better for the mod context than drydock. I actually posted something like a shipyard as a building only the shipmaster civs (Teleri & Numenor) should get so maybe call the original one docks and than shipyards for these two civs as a better building that adds something (but not an upgrade for the original one). To get back to the fortifications, the total is good now I think. I don't even know what it is in FFH or BtS in total. Maybe we can make this into three paths for defenses for a city:

pallisade --> walls --> fortified walls
castle --> fortress --> stronghold (castle still needs walls)
wooden tower --> stone tower (--> watch tower)

We could also say that some things are only available through the Numenor and Gondor advanced construction tech (maybe stronghold and fortified walls) and then we add for Arnor the watchtower tech that gives you access to the watchtower as an upgrade for the stone tower. This way for normal civs the max defense bonus is lower for the cities but for certain civs it is higher like for Numenor and for Gondor and Arnor (although maybe we can increase line of sight too with the watchtower or something).


I like these ideas. I also like that the Stonghold & Fortified Walls are only Buildable with those Civs with Advanced Contruction and the Watchtower by Arnor. It makes them more like the Books.

I don't like the free promo idea, I think xp would work better (balance wise, but maybe that is just me). I think we can keep them to be required to be able to produce the units. I would really rename the drydock to docks. It sounds more middle earthy (or medieval) and we can use the shipyard for something more specific for these seafaring civs (Teleri and Numenor).

I don't like the free promo idea, I think xp would work better (balance wise, but maybe that is just me). I think we can keep them to be required to be able to produce the units. I would really rename the drydock to docks. It sounds more middle earthy (or medieval) and we can use the shipyard for something more specific for these seafaring civs (Teleri and Numenor).

I will rename the Drydocks to Docks now. I am fine with just giving +2 XP to each building in respect to what they can build.

I'm also not really sure though. If we make them prerequisite to building certain units like in FFH, than maybe the xp bonus is not even needed. You have to build them anyway. But I'm not sure about this aspect. We can also only give XP without having it as prerequisite to building units or we can do both.

I am also adding in the Watch Tower. What did you think of my bonuses however.

That will change now with the new WSatch Tower it will look like this:


Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+20% city defense)
Stronghold (+25% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness) (Gondor only)
Fortified Wall (+15% city defense) (Numenor/Gondor/Arnor only)
Wooden Tower (+5% defense)
Stone Tower (+10% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)
Watch Tower: (+15% City Defence, See invisible units?, +1 or +2 Tile Visiblity from city radius?) (Arnor only)

Total City Defence: Numenor: +80% / Gondor: +105% / Arnor: +95% / Everyone Else: +65%

What do you think?

We don't have to allow XP from Military Buildings. Perhaps we only give XP with the buildings for Unique Units? To make them more special, but the standard buildings don't give it.

I like it (maybe remove the 120 to avoid confusion :) I had to count myself to see what you meant by that). I actually for the watchtower meant that the city itself maybe has a larger line of sight and maybe can see hidden or invisible units (depending if we have them) but this might also be a possibility although not really related (units in the field don't see more only because they are build in a city with a watchtower). Maybe to make Arnor also a little more beefed add the fortified wall for them as well? But than we might have to give them the first construction tech to. I'm not sure. Maybe limit the stronghold only to Gondor because Numenor has the ships already?

Updated with your Suggestions!

We renamed the Academy the "Sage's Library" earlier. Did you want me to rename it agian?
No, please don't. My mistake

Another Idea:

Post Office (+1 or +2 Beakers, -10% war weariness, +25% trade-commerce)

I added the 1/2 Beakers to the Post Office, because you would be able to spread out and share the knowledge more quickly, easier to keep up on research happening elsewehere type of thing.

Also, do we like the name "Drydocks" or should it be shomething else, like "Shipyard" or some other name?
Beakers for Post Office makes sense. Please rename Drydocks to Docks, it's more accurate. As Berenthor said, Shipyard can be used for seafaring civs.
To get back to the fortifications, the total is good now I think. I don't even know what it is in FFH or BtS in total. Maybe we can make this into three paths for defenses for a city:

pallisade --> walls --> fortified walls
castle --> fortress --> stronghold (castle still needs walls)
wooden tower --> stone tower (--> watch tower)

We could also say that some things are only available through the Numenor and Gondor advanced construction tech (maybe stronghold and fortified walls) and then we add for Arnor the watchtower tech that gives you access to the watchtower as an upgrade for the stone tower. This way for normal civs the max defense bonus is lower for the cities but for certain civs it is higher like for Numenor and for Gondor and Arnor (although maybe we can increase line of sight too with the watchtower or something).
:goodjob:
Training Field
Archery Range
Stables
Siege Workshop
Drydocks

We still have to decide what to do with the above Buildings. It was suggested that they be required to build certain units (I agree) and that they possible give a free promotion to those units (I like this idea instead of giving said units Bonus XP).
I'm also not really sure though. If we make them prerequisite to building certain units like in FFH, than maybe the xp bonus is not even needed. You have to build them anyway. But I'm not sure about this aspect. We can also only give XP without having it as prerequisite to building units or we can do both.
I would have them as a prereq for building the units, without adding xp (xp can be gained plentyfull through other ways).
I am also adding in the Watch Tower. What did you think of my bonuses however.

That will change now with the new WSatch Tower it will look like this:


Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+20% city defense)
Stronghold (+25% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness) (Gondor only)
Fortified Wall (+15% city defense) (Numenor/Gondor/Arnor only)
Wooden Tower (+5% defense)
Stone Tower (+10% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)
Watch Tower: (+15% City Defence, See invisible units?, +1 or +2 Tile Visiblity from city radius?) (Arnor only)

Total City Defence: Numenor: +80% / Gondor: +105% / Arnor: +95% / Everyone Else: +65%

What do you think?
Looks good. Keep in mind though that Isengard needs it defenses beefed up as well, but that might be done through other ways.

The Orthanc Wonder that only Isengard can build say, would be able to give a pretty good City Defence Bonus as Well. Perhaps a National Wonder for them as well called the "Ring Of Isengard" to represent the walls. We can deffinately come up with stuff.

I like the ring of Isengard the best for walls. Maybe Orthanc just as the palace instead of a wonder which already provides defense? Or would this be overpowered for the early game?
I think were pretty far now on the building list like this. Good updates, that is exactly as I meant it. Definetly keep the post office in :).

As long as the "Orthanc Palace" doesn't go overboard with the bonus then it would be good. This way it gives Isengard a slightly better chance of surviving into the later game. Perhaps the "Orthanc Palace" grants a +10% City Defence Bonus.

Also, another thing to consider is, perhaps making the Palace a Building that you do not start off with for free (this would apply to everyone). You have to build it.

That might be a nice idea indeed. But maybe in the early time, it will take a long time to build it or we have to make sure it is not to expensive.

We could also give the King unit an ability that say doubles the Production Speed of a Palace if it is currently in the City (sort of like a resource).

That is a nice idea. This way you have to choose between staying and building your palace or going off with your king unit to conquer or scout or something. We have to see how easy this is to do however.

I like the ring of Isengard the best for walls. Maybe Orthanc just as the palace instead of a wonder which already provides defense? Or would this be overpowered for the early game?
I think were pretty far now on the building list like this. Good updates, that is exactly as I meant it. Definetly keep the post office in :).
Indeed, Ring of Isengard for walls and the Palace as extra defense.

Also, another thing to consider is, perhaps making the Palace a Building that you do not start off with for free (this would apply to everyone). You have to build it.
We could also give the King unit an ability that say doubles the Production Speed of a Palace if it is currently in the City (sort of like a resource).
I like this, but it will slow down early research enormously.
It also raises some questions: When can you build the palace? With Stoneworking?
I would have the king unit triple the production speed, maybe even quadrupple it. Is it possible for a civ not to have a capital? I think it is at least possible not to have a palace (can be disabled in the xml, but I would have to check whether the tag has a minOccurence).


Maybe have a palace to start with and have the possibility to replace it with a better one? Not sure whether that is possible without modding (you can have only the palace or the upgraded one, not both)

The Ring of Isengard then as a national wonder which has to be build in the capital maybe? I agree that we have to make it three or four times the speed with the king unit. I'm also not sure, I think civ uses the palace to determine the capital, but I'm not sure.

The Ring of Isengard then as a national wonder which has to be build in the capital maybe? I agree that we have to make it three or four times the speed with the king unit. I'm also not sure, I think civ uses the palace to determine the capital, but I'm not sure.

As Isengard will have only one city, that would not require extra coding.

Oh yeah of course, sorry.

Good ideas. I think I like Stoneworking for the Palace.

As we are mostly agreed on the Great Persons, maybe its time to add their lesser variants to buildings.

I copied the list from the first post, but there is some ongoing discussion about a couple of things, so be carefull with copy/pasting this list.
Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+25% city defense)
Stronghold (+35% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness)+1 artisan slot
Fortified Wall (+20% city defense)
Wooden Tower (+10% defense)
Stone Tower (+30% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)

(These will give either a free promo or be required to built related units at all)
Training Field
Archery Range
Stables
Siege Workshop
Docks (for building ships)

Town Hall (-50% maintenace costs in the city)
Market (+50% commerce in the city, +1 happiness from trade goods)+1 merchant slot
Tavern (+1 happiness, +1 happiness from Wine)+1 merchant slot
Inn (+1 trade route in the city, +1 happiness, +1 Health)+1 minstrel slot
Well (+1 Health)
Apothecary (+1 Health, +1 with Athelas/Spices)
Infirmary (+2 Health)
Smoke House (+1 health from livestock stores 10% on city growth)
Granary (stores half of the food when the city grows, +1 health from food resources)
Lighthouse (+1 food in water tiles)
Harbor (1 trade route, +50% trade-commerce)
Archives (+25% research, +1 culture)+1 loremaster slot
Library (+25% research, +1 culture)+1 loremaster slot
Houses of Lore (+50% research, +2 culture)+2 loremaster slot
Guild of Artists (+20% culture in the city, +1 happiness for each 20% of gold going to culture)+1 minstrel slot
Guild of Minstrels (+2 culture, +1 happiness)+2 minstrel slot
Forge (+50% production in the city, -3 health)+1 artisan slot
Armory (free armor promo for relevant units)
Blacksmith (2xp)
Post Office (-10% war weariness, +25% trade-commerce)+1 merchant slot
Guard's House (-15% War Weariness, free City Garrison I)
Stockade (-50% war weariness, -1 happiness)
Statue (+1 culture)

Looks good, don't forget to update these buildings though:

Palisade (+5% city defense)
Walls (+10% city defense)
Castle (+15% city defense)
Fortress (+20% city defense)
Stronghold (+25% city defense, -10% collateral damage, -10% city maintenance cost, -1 War Weariness) (Gondor only)
Fortified Wall (+15% city defense) (Numenor/Gondor/Arnor only)
Wooden Tower (+5% defense)
Stone Tower (+10% city defense, defense bonus for ranged units.)
Watch Tower: (+15% City Defence, See invisible units?, +1 or +2 Tile Visiblity from city radius?) (Arnor only)

Total City Defence: Numenor: +80% / Gondor: +105% / Arnor: +95% / Everyone Else: +65%
Also, will the Great Commander ONLY come from Combat then? Do we want an even amount for each? If so, I can suggest a few things.

As said, I just copied the list in your post, and because I'm lazy, I'm expecting you to keep that list up to date :lol:

I also noticed that you hadn't changed the research buildings. Didn't we reach a verdict on that?

Wasn't sure that we had formally decided. Only 3 people weighed in I think. I will update the 1st post now and the Scientific Buildings too.

EDIT: Update now done. You can redo your list now, sorry.

Forgot my additional comments:

I'm not sure about the workings of the Great Commander in FFH. I suppose that we could have him as a regular specialist as well, but what would he give? I think that only generating him by xp would be best.

We list is quite balanced at the moment (4 minstrels, 4 loremasters, 3 merchants, 2 artisans), but I can go either way. What are your suggestions? No need to keep to my list if you have other ideas simply because I post it first.

No, I just wasn't sure about the balance is all. I didn't know if we wanted to have 4 of each or balance it in the you have. The great Artisan is quite useful/powerful after all.

Maybe the Artisan from stronghold should be moved to Fortress as only Gondor can build Strongholds (or give both an Artisan slot).

Perhaps moving it down to Fortress would be best for balance reasons. We can always give one of the UB for each civ a bonus 1 depending on what the Civ represents.

Also:
Do we want a trading post building? We do have a tech called Trading posts, so I was thinking that it should enable a namesake building.
How about this:
Trading Post (-10% (distance?) maintaince, +50% Foreign Trade Commerce, (only buildable in coastal cities??), +1 merchant slot)

Sounds good. I'll add it to the list.

EDIT: I have also included your Great People bonuses in the 1st post.

Removed because of not being relevant.

The Great Artisan IS the Great Engineer!

Oh yeah, sorry got confused with the artist (which is minstrell). Forget my previous post. I'm okay with the list as is.

So, once we have the Units finalized we can come back to this and fill in any discrepancies.

I think there should be an Elven Unique Building that lets you 'Harvest' a forest tile for half hammer at 2/3 time without taking it away. You can do it three times an age per tile. :) Harvesting means taking fungi, medicines ect.

Interesting Idea. You should repost that in the Unique Buildings Thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=282270

Hi there gang, I hope you don’t mind my coming in late to the party with a few ideas here. I have some concerns about the buildings here mostly from a game play standpoint, as opposed to an Arda representation view. I think these building will change the game quite a bit – if that is intended, it is great. Otherwise, you may want to think about their impact.

Fortification

Fortifications will have a major impact on play especially with the AI. Firaxis and modders have had trouble making the balance between city defense and siege warfare proper. With too much defense, taking cities can become extremely problematic, and warfare becomes dominated by raids. Conversely, with siege ability too great, defenses become worthless as a build.

The critical problem with forts in any Civ IV system is that once a side gets conventional warfare hegemony, any fort size can be taken down with siege weapons simply by taking their time. In regular BtS, I don’t think most human players build defenses because the siege weapons are really good, defenses don’t help against pillaging, so defending by building more troops or your own siege weapons is usually preferable; if you are behind in strength, they will simply eventually get through any defense. In FfH, the system is rather brilliant and has been balanced between spells, super-powerful units and heroes, and siege weapons.

Note that in ‘real life’, in medieval warfare or later the equation was different. Battle losses were small relative to disease and starvation. Therefore, a defender holding out in a fort or castle was holding on for the attacker to give out. (Mobile warfare was slightly easier since the invading army would steal the food from the countryside, but in a siege the local food is used up quickly.) Even more important, the cost of fielding an army to take a castle could cost half of the invading army’s annual income. But these factors aren’t present in Civ IV.

Balancing it for human play is really tough, you want to have the different levels of fortification worth the cost and time. But I suspect that dealing with the AI will be frustrating. We usually find that the AI either builds too many or too few of these fortifications or has very poor judgment of where they are appropriate. With the fort levels you have in play, you could find Mordor building forts all over instead of troops, Morgoth building them instead of balrogs or dragons. Or, they won’t build any forts, it is really hard to get the AI to build the ‘right’ number.


Best wishes,

Breunor

PS I'll have other comments soon if that is OK.

That is something we will have to consider.

Also, always share your thoughts. They are welcome.

That is indeed something to consider. One of the reasons we actually didn't want DCM in is to avoid just blasting an enemy into oblivion from the outside. We toned down the defense of all civs (except a few special ones) to help balance this out but I'm not sure if it is enough or to much. I think the best way would be to try and see what happens. I actually in my games sometimes use them (especially in the beginning) when I have to hold a city with reletaively few units (mostly archers of course) against an overwhelming numer (like swarmes of barbarians in FFH when your close to the Acheron city). Especially early game this can help. Later on I'm not sure.

While I agree with you that it might be hard to get the AI to behave, there's really no way to tell other then to try it out. Only way to get this right is trial and error.

That is indeed something to consider. One of the reasons we actually didn't want DCM in is to avoid just blasting an enemy into oblivion from the outside. We toned down the defense of all civs (except a few special ones) to help balance this out but I'm not sure if it is enough or to much. I think the best way would be to try and see what happens. I actually in my games sometimes use them (especially in the beginning) when I have to hold a city with reletaively few units (mostly archers of course) against an overwhelming numer (like swarmes of barbarians in FFH when your close to the Acheron city). Especially early game this can help. Later on I'm not sure.

I also think fortifications can help, and I do build them, sometimes, but the human player knwos where and when to build them. But I think you will agree that the AI on this is rather poor. In BtS they (AI) build too many for defense. I think they are a little more valuable in FfH since the AI doesn't build as much artillery as they do in BtS (and in FfH take cities in wave attacks).

One idea that may help here to make the fort builds more wothwhile is to reduce the culture defense. Kael did this in somewhat FfH, joking that a wall should provide more defense than a theater. With cultural defenses so high anyway, the forts mean less. Why build forts when libraries provide science, culture, and defense?!

Best wishes,

Breunor

Happiness and Health

Happiness

I think that happiness and health will constrain city size more than it does in BtS or in FfH. I not making a qualitative judgment here, this doesn’t make it ‘bad’. I just want to make sure that everyone is aware of consequences. I haven’t spent a lot of time looking at resources, wonders, and civics that may impact here, but I will talk about the buildings. I think that happiness is a little more constrained than health so will likely have a greater proportional impact.


Clearly, the lack of religious buildings can be felt. In Arda, it looks like we have a market that gives a = +1 with trade goods, a tavern (+1 with wine), inn (+1), guild of artists (+1 fur, +1/20% culture), and a guild of minstrels (+1). Clearly there are a lot more happiness buildings in BtS, with all of the temples, the forge that gives a +1 for each of three metals, a market that gives +1 for 4 different resources, a theater (similar to guild of artists), the cathedral which can give up to 2 or three, and a colosseum gives 1. The late game wonders also add to happiness. Civics can also have a big impact on happiness (representation).

FfH also has a lot of happiness buildings, far more than Arda although the comparison is complicated, for instance FfH doesn’t have silver. Public baths give +3 happiness, gambling houses give +1 slider on commerce which can be substantial. Carnivals give +1 and allow captured animals to give +1 /species. Forges allow +1 with gold and hunting lodges give +1 for fur. Temples will give +1 if the religion civic is run and 1 for incense. Theaters also give a +1 for dye + 1 for each 10% to the culture slider. Conversely there are a few buildings (tax collector, asylum) which subtract from happiness.

Health

Directly comparing BtS to Arda, the granaries are the same. The smokehouse is similar to the supermarket but apparently is available sooner. The infirmary is less beneficial than the hospital. Arda has the well which is +1, and the apothecary +1 and an additional +1 for athelas). However, you no longer have the aqueduct (+2), the harbor (some health for coastal cities in BtS, yours has no health benefits) and the grocer. Therefore, all together I think health will be tighter.

However, it is worse in Arda once we add the forge, -3 health. It has the same production as the forge and a factory in BtS which have -2 health together. But in BtS you later get the recycling center, and public transit. In BtS a player can run environmentalism to supercharge health.

Comparing Arda health to FfH, I also think health is tighter in Arda. For health, the granaries and the smokehouses are the same, and the infirmary is one health worse in Arda. Arda has the well and the apothecary against FfH’s aqueduct and herbalist (and for some Civ’s the Temple of Leaves). Again, the biggest difference will be with the forge, the -3 for the powerful 50% production will be a very major hit.

The health abilities are probably OK if the happiness buildings don't change since I think in Arda you will run ourt of happiness first. But if you want to balance to have simialr city sizes as we have in FfH or BtS, I would opt for one more health building perhaps (like the cemetery in The Ancient Mediterranean), maybe restoring the infirmary to +3, and reducing the forge hit to -2 or making some other late health improvement building. Alternatively, you can have more health resources.

Best wishes,

Breunor

PS I'll have one more post on culture and relative value.

Very good points all around. We will defiantely take this into consideration. Buildings have NOT been finalized so your suggestions can be more easily inorporated.

Once again, I thank you for your input once again. Keep up the great work.

I actually didn't even notice that some things were missing. Maybe we should add the harbor in again and reduce the -3 health of the forge to -2. We could add some small production bonus to the blacksmith for example, with a -1 health.

Are we going to add some +1 happiness/health bonusses for some resources to the buildings? I think we disregarded most up till now because resource list was not yet finalized.

Looks like I missed some stuff writing the list.

- Harbor should still have health bonus.
- Forge should indeed be -2 health and have a bonus for metal happiness.
- Guild of minstrels should have +1 happy/10% slider as well.

Other happiness buildings might have to be added, but I'd have to check have much we have in total now for that to be certain. Suggestions of which buildings to add are more then welcome. Also, some buildings might grant happiness/health depending on civics.

Updated the list with suggestions.

Don't forget that the Unique Buildings will give their own bonuses as well. Wonders will also have bonuses. I believe we probably do need to rethink things in regard to bonuses from resources. Keep the suggestions coming and I will continue to update as necessary.

Looks like I missed some stuff writing the list.

- Harbor should still have health bonus.
- Forge should indeed be -2 health and have a bonus for metal happiness.
- Guild of minstrels should have +1 happy/10% slider as well.

Other happiness buildings might have to be added, but I'd have to check have much we have in total now for that to be certain. Suggestions of which buildings to add are more then welcome. Also, some buildings might grant happiness/health depending on civics.

I think adding these would help.

For the first post, I assume you mean to treat harbors liek they are in BtS (+ one health per sea resource) and forges as + one happiness /metal?

Best wishes,

Breunor

Implemented further updates for the Forge & Blacksmith.

@ Breunor:

Possible good ideas there. Lets see what the others think.

Sounds good to me for the harbor and the forge.

I think adding these would help.

For the first post, I assume you mean to treat harbors liek they are in BtS (+ one health per sea resource) and forges as + one happiness /metal?

Best wishes,

Breunor

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Updating list as appropriate. Please go over it to make sure I haven't forgoten anything.

What's next? Adding them to the tech tree or adding the hammer cost first?

We should finalized the basic list before moving on. We can add more in later if we wish or have forgotten anything.

Then I would recommend figuring out the hammer cost. Once the BUildings are completed we can then add them into the Tech Tree. I believe I created an empty version that I have to update with out latest change. I will repost it in the Tech Tree thread so people don't have to go to all the trouble of doing it themselves.

Culture

Here again the loss of temples, monasteries, and cathedrals will be felt. I guess the guild of minstrels becomes the key building besides the statue, does it plays the role the theater ‘normally’ plays. A lot of culture seems to be generated by the science buildings. Is this intentional?

Building Balance

Building balance refers to the player/choice dynamic. Building balance refers to the trade-off of some buildings vs other buildings or other builds like military units. If some buildings are just superior, they reduce building balance since all solid players will build them. This result isn’t necessarily bad. In BtS the granary and courthouse are really good building, the forge is also very strong.

FfH is a brilliant mod which has better overall balance; sometimes people look at the ‘big thing’s about FfH, like heroes, religions, spells, etc. but the mod just has outright improved the game in every way. In FfH, building balance is also very well done. If you run ‘city states’, you may forego the courthouse, or build it in select cities. Granaries are good building but not the powerhouses they are in BtS. Indeed, there are very few ‘automatic’ buildings in FfH.

It is hard to talk about building balance without cost. So, I can only speculate for now.

Like BtS, for Arda the granary is really a good building, 50% food with up to three health. The smokehouse is much worse unless you just happen to have lots of livestock and little grain, it is 10% food and up to three health. In contrast, in FfH both buildings provide 20% food storage and similar health benefits; note the building balance in FfH! Town halls are just better courthouses, I guess the idea is that everyone builds them, unless like Ff H you have an equivalent to the city-states civic.

Libraries seem to be very good also. Since they provide a point of culture and a lot of science, will you bother to build the statue? Archives and libraries seem to be a little similar for my taste – I would separate them a little more. I’m guessing the house of lore is a pretty expensive later building. But I think that these buildings will be high priorities since they provide both culture and a lot of science.

I really like the blacksmith, armory, and forge, I think these give the kinds of trade-offs that make the game fun, if the effects are well done, this is ‘good’ building balance.

So, as it stands, depending on cost (I'm assuming 'normal' type of cost) and other features like civics, I think granaries, libraries, and courthouses become almost 'must' buildings.

Military


I see you have pretty much the ‘standard’ troop buildings although as I said I like the blacksmith and armory. One point to consider is the relative strength of the military unit types. Specifically, I worry about cavalry. My reading of LoTR and even the Silmarillion is that Tolkien was (realistically) a believer that cavalry was quite powerful. I’m sure you will have special buildings or units for Rohan, but it may go beyond Rohan.

Not only was (in my opinion) cavalry realistically strong in Middle –Earth, you have to deal with incarnations in Civ IV and even FfH are dominated by city fighting, probably too much so. If you include some of the advanced fortification buildings you are discussing, siege and city warfare will be even more pronounced. Therefore, you may want to think about some kind of advance cavalry building or even wonder for cavalry or they may lose relevance. In FfH, this was partially addressed by a powerhouse wonder that make cavalry into killing machines (Ride of 9 Kings) or some other type of building/wonder/unit.

Best wishes,

Breunor

Great ideas. We are indeed looking at having a fair number of Unique Buildings, we are not limiting it to only 1 per civ. The Ideas for Wonders afecting Units as well is good. Also, we are thinking along the lines of specific Race and Civ promotions to help out with that.

One of the things we don't want is to have culture be the end all and be all of the game. That is one reason why we don't have as many culture related buildings. Wonders will be able to give nice bonuses. Also, we are considering removing the ability for cities to flip culturally. It just doesn't feel right for this Mod.

Granary should indeed be toned down and share it's role with Smokehouse.

About the culture on science buildings: I still think it feels right, though I agree that it will mean that people won't be building a lot of statues. Still it is not that different from BtS.
It all depends on hammers though. If the statue is cheap then it will be preferable to a library for early culture. It will also be earlier available in most cases. Too cheap and it will put the creative trait out of use, so we've got to be carefull here. We can also consider an additional benefit on the statue (-10% war weariness?).

I think the Library and archives ain't too bad. They will not be cheap to build, so should provide a good benefit.

Town Hall is a bit too much indeed. I'd rather stay away from 50% buildings and have it split over more buildings. Maybe have it as 30% and have some other buildings add 5% or 10% in addition to their current benefits (Post Office instead of War Weariness, Stockade lower War weariness discount).

Thanks for the input. Want a place in the team :D? We're hiring, though not paying :lol:

Thanks for the input. Want a place in the team :D? We're hiring, though not paying :lol:

Hey, that is my line, now their is no point in me PM'ing him!

Write out a formal list of changes and I will see about implementing them in the main post.

X-men510,

Thanks for the offer! I'm not sure what being on the team entails so it is a little hard to know if I should. My ability to commit time will be very variable. I'll help however I can either way. Anyway, I like the pay. :-)

Before I make a formal list of recommendations, though, I want to scour through the other threads in the mod. That is, it is hard to talk about buildings without seeing how the whole mod fits together. As an example, I may say that there aren't enough health buildings, but if the design intent is intentionally to limit city growth, then there should be limited happiness buildings.
Your comment about culture is a good point. If you disallow culture flipping, it changes the way we look at culture. I do agree that in dealing with the different races, disallowing culture flipping seems to make sense in a LoTR world.

I think if Sauron had captured Lothlorian during the War of the Ring, you wouldn't have had a city with a tremendous amount of elven culture occupied by orcs; rather, you would probably have had a lot of dead elves. This would leave me to recommend either: 1. Eliminate culture flipping, the orcs settling the city aren't moving out and they aren't asking to join the Noldor. or 2. Have the AI 'know' it should burn the city. (At least for Sauron/Morgoth, it may make sense to have a rule where units/orcs can be turned into city population. I can see the orcs burning a city, and quickly setlling it with thousands. ) The reason I say perhaps they should burn them is that with the Civ system, there will be 'elves' in the city for happiness purposes which probably makes little sense.


Two warnings of not having culture buildings, though -- even without culture flipping, the few culture buildings may make it hard for a conqueror to hold territory if another race has established culture. With few culture buildings, the wonders may be establishing a lot of culture that will be hard to contest. So, the conquerer may find itself holding only the city square and having trouble competing for surrounding squares. Will culture bombing be allowed? If so, the impacts of somebody else culture bombing will be hard to offset.

You also will have to make sure that the great artists (sorry, I forgot what they will be called) can be balanced and that there isn't an artist war.

Btw, can Sauron and Morgoth get 'artists'? I would think the shadow itself promotes some sort of 'culture' in Civ terms but I don't really see an orc or troll version of Raphael.

Anyway, these are some of my random thoughts.

Best wishes,

Breunor

A lot of good ideas.

I will send you a PM very soon regarding some of the issues with getting caught up, so you don't waste a lot of time. I would deffinately recommend getting caught up and then posting the comments in the related threads. I'll get that PM to you as soon as possible.

Suggestion to the suggestion: Maybe when a Shadow civ takes a city, the culture accumulation and all cultural buildings are erased. Shadow culture is an odd idea indeed, perhaps we could just have the borders slowly expand at a set rate and eliminate culture altogether for the Shadow.

Suggestion to the suggestion: Maybe when a Shadow civ takes a city, the culture accumulation and all cultural buildings are erased. Shadow culture is an odd idea indeed, perhaps we could just have the borders slowly expand at a set rate and eliminate culture altogether for the Shadow.

TF, I was kinda thinking on the same line. I was thinking shadow spread comes from the shadow itself, not from cultural buildings we think of in a normal Civ or even FfH setting. I almost think of the shadow emanating from Morgoth or Sauron directly. As others have said, we could use something like the spread of hell terrain in FfH.


Best wishes,

Breunor