While reading Mad Scientist's RPC summary (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255397&page=29#563) I wondered which of the first level techs are really necessary in the long run, and what would happen if you didn't research one of them. By first level techs I mean Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism and Mining.

As it turns out missing either Hunting or Agriculture would not be the end of the world, however missing one of the others is going to block lots of techs. Hunting only blocks Archery, while having only one of Agriculture and Hunting is enough to get Animal Husbandry, and Pottery can be obtained with Fishing instead of Agriculture.

On the other hand, without Fishing you don't get Sailing, so no Compass, no Optics, no Astronomy, no Physics and then you're in trouble for a good part of the late game techs. Missing the Wheel means no Pottery, so no Metal Casting, no Machinery, no Printing Press, etc. Missing Mysticism might seem ok, until you get to Monarchy, Feudalism, Guilds, Banking, Replaceable Parts, etc. Missing Mining leads to the horror: no Bronze Working; no Iron Working, Metal Casting and so on to follow.

Well, if you've read so far you probably have an idea where this is going. How about a series of six games, and in each of them we'll have to skip one of those first level techs? Level, leaders and maps to be decided; they will of course vary based on which tech we skip.

I've done a SG skipping BW. This was back in warlords I think, I don't remember the difficulty any more - probably monarch. Skipping mining wouldn't be that different, I think.

Well, you wouldn't be able to build mines. ;) So you'd have really low production at first, since there's no mining, no chopping and no slavery. Of course you'll still be able to build forts to get the resources. Other than that it would be the same.

Playing a game with the intention of skipping agriculture is not wise, what if you have lots of farm resources in your area? It's pretty much a given that at some point you'll need agriculture or animal husbandry, because farm / animal resources will exist in your area. The need for these depends on the map.

That being said, if I don't start with mysticism, I've played games where I don't research it for a long time, like until 1 AD. That seems to be the only one you could optionally skip. Maybe fishing too, if it's a pangaea map. But then again, calendar resources often abound, so fishing eventually becomes necessary.

Archery and HNR spring to mind.

Play Spain on Settler level, you don't have to research any of them.

Playing a game with the intention of skipping agriculture is not wise, what if you have lots of farm resources in your area?

I'm not going for "wise", I'm going for fun. :)

Play Spain on Settler level, you don't have to research any of them.

That's a nice idea for another crazy SG game :mischief:... tx!

edit, OT: on a normal game, I can't live without them, exception of hunting which can be rather bad (HR =>warrior happiness is good for you :yumyum:)

While reading Mad Scientist's RPC summary (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255397&page=29#563) I wondered which of the first level techs are really necessary in the long run, and what would happen if you didn't research one of them. By first level techs I mean Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism and Mining.



Skip Mysticism if you don't want religion or stonehenge; Usually I only want stonehenge for Charismatic or for REXing without Creative.

Fishing is always situationally skippable; It's only regrettable if you have a single fish resource, and mediocre land food at start. I only priortize it for large inland seas and if there is 2-3 seafood at start.

Only an Idiot would skip Mining. Generally the same about Ag.

Wheel is frequently pointless if you don't need cottages right away (usually only need them right away for early religion footrace or if in a fat flood plains), or if you're on a river with riverside luxury.

AH is skippable if you don't have landanimal food, or don't care about horse units.

Hunting is a good alt to AH if you don't need Ag right away; Unless I have a very specific strategy, some early scouts are a good idea, so I don't usually skip hunting.

Sounds like masochism for a RPC.

Lots depend on difficulty level and resource you have at your bfc.
Immort and above, players should have no problem skipping, beeline and back trade with AI. Emp and below, prob need to research yourself, as AI don't tech as fast as you.

Lots depend on difficulty level and resource you have at your bfc.
Immort and above, players should have no problem skipping, beeline and back trade with AI. Emp and below, prob need to research yourself, as AI don't tech as fast as you.

Carl's point is skipping the tech for the entire game...

Carl's point is skipping the tech for the entire game...

Haha...my bad~

Did anyone actually do a game without mining? Would be interesting to see it done, non-AP victory.

Haha...my bad~

Did anyone actually do a game without mining? Would be interesting to see it done, non-AP victory.

Skipping mining would mean that the most powerful unit a civ would be able to build for the entire game would be longbows, and galleys for the navy. However I think you can build catapults so warfare wouldn't be too bad early on. The biggest handicap though would be not being able to improve forested terrain.

Crazy games!!! Love the idea. Get it going. I would like to play one but have way too little time to post long stories over here.

There was a question in the Civ quiz some time back asking for all the techs you can skip yet still get Future Tech. Some quite suprising ones. Doing that'd make an interesting game...:)

One word for skipping mining: Keshiks.

Just play GK on a marathon/epic pangea. Production wouldn't be great without mining, but some forested hills would hopefully be enough. You can easily have 4 or 5 capitals before longbows are a problem. And with that much land, you can afford a keshik/cat war of attrition.

I believe you only need the wheel, hunting and mysticism for this, skipping fishing, ag and mining. You could theoretically skip the wheel, but that means making keshiks only out of a city that you settle on horses. Although you could spam a lot of cats from other cities.

Neah, I'm gonna skip one tech at a time, I'm not that much of a masochist! :lol: Keshiks do seem a good choice for the no mining game. I'll start with this one tonight. Probably Epic speed, as Marathon is too slow for my tastes, and Normal will get me out of my "best units" era too fast. I usually play on Emperor/Immortal, so I'll drop to Monarch and see how it goes.

Neah, I'm gonna skip one tech at a time, I'm not that much of a masochist!

Tested Dave's idea last night... you can go until gunpowder/nationalism/construction and dominate with a muskets/cats SoD. The problem is that you are restricted to warriors before Gunpowder :D. I tryed it a noble, dunno if it can be higher (probably, but by skipping basic techs, you also ends up with zero improvement :cool:).

Other stuffs can be done in pangea with guys starting with fishing mining... like axe rushing your continent ...

Finally there is Rome which is as easy as always with those restrictions :goodjob:

Good luck with your game Carl! ;)

Finally there is Rome which is as easy as always with those restrictions

Except for mining. Rome without mining would be like a tiger without teeth! No mining, no ironworking; no ironworking, no Praetorians!

NPM

Hunting is one of if not the most important first tech.

Fact- Scout pops hut = tech = way ahead instead of going for bronzeworking

Fact- Only archers will stop bararians with a bit of certainty

Fact- Spear needed to stop a quick mounted against city attack

Fact- Hunting, the optimal tech for the superior player

Except for mining. Rome without mining would be like a tiger without teeth! No mining, no ironworking; no ironworking, no Praetorians!

Rome does start with mining ;) you want to tech BW -> IW -> sailing to connect the iron (need one resource riverside or coastal)...

Cheers

Skipping mining would mean that the most powerful unit a civ would be able to build for the entire game would be longbows, and galleys for the navy. However I think you can build catapults so warfare wouldn't be too bad early on. The biggest handicap though would be not being able to improve forested terrain.

Actually, you could still build Grenadiers and Cuirassiers, although you would want to play on Pangaea. You could also build Muskets, Elephants, Trebs and Cats.

@troytheface:

Fact-- warriors can also pop techs

Fact-- horse archers, axemen or swordsmen can stop barbs in the field

Fact-- Swords in cities can easily stop HAs attacking, if only making them withdraw, especially with the anti-mounted promotion.

Fact-- Stating three facts with faulty logic and then one opinion doesn't make the opinion fact.

Fact-- While you're building scouts to try to get the few huts that haven't been gotten, you could be building for a Settler or Warrior/Chariot/Axe/Sword/HA rush.

Well, it isn't really skipping, but I used to never research Hunting and Archery. I would always just beg an A.I. for them, because they usually give it at Pleased.

Actually, you could still build Grenadiers and Cuirassiers

I think you need engeenering for chemistry (and so machinery <- MC <- BW <- mining), so you would be limited to muskets :)

cuir's don't need engineering. You just need nationalism + music, neither of which come from the mining tree (interestingly enough).

I activly avoid hunting in a lot of games and seriously though this thread would about how bad hunting is, and how it is often worth delaying machinery if you skip hunting not only for the potential lib bulb but also for the ability to build more and more warriors. There are some other techs that obsolete useful stuff(economics, rifling(with protective)) comes to mind, and of course there are all the wonders...

cuir's don't need engineering. You just need nationalism + music, neither of which come from the mining tree (interestingly enough).

Yeah, was thinking at the grenies... for cuirassiers, you need to start with either hunting or agriculture :p

Actually, you could still build Grenadiers and Cuirassiers, although you would want to play on Pangaea. You could also build Muskets, Elephants, Trebs and Cats.

Oh yeah forgot you can get gunpowder through the education route which means Muskets and Cuirassiers. But still only cats as trebs and cannons require engineering and steel which have tech requirements in the bottom part of the tree.

Skipping mining would mean that the most powerful unit a civ would be able to build for the entire game would be longbows, and galleys for the navy. However I think you can build catapults so warfare wouldn't be too bad early on. The biggest handicap though would be not being able to improve forested terrain.

That's why no mining + no early victory conditions (ie AP) is going to be a fun game to play. Beeline to longbow and land grab all game long. Build def units and hopefully win peaceful way, until can out-tech AI and hold military advantage.

That's why no mining + no early victory conditions (ie AP) is going to be a fun game to play. Beeline to longbow and land grab all game long. Build def units and hopefully win peaceful way, until can out-tech AI and hold military advantage.

Taking someone like Sitting Bull could be good, to get protective super-powered longbows. Or Genghis or Kublai for Keshik rampaging.

The first game is up here: CC Skipper I: Mineless Khan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314955)

Playing a game with the intention of skipping agriculture is not wise, what if you have lots of farm resources in your area? It's pretty much a given that at some point you'll need agriculture or animal husbandry, because farm / animal resources will exist in your area. The need for these depends on the map.

That being said, if I don't start with mysticism, I've played games where I don't research it for a long time, like until 1 AD. That seems to be the only one you could optionally skip. Maybe fishing too, if it's a pangaea map. But then again, calendar resources often abound, so fishing eventually becomes necessary.

I read an article in my Archaeology class that this professer guy did, and he said that humans becoming sedentary (and thus developing agriculture) was the worst thing that could have happened to humanity since it spawned the 'plagues' of the upper class and the nobility, which in turn came with corruption etc etc.

He said that if we stayed a nomadic people, everything that eventually came (like art, science, etc) would have come anyways.

'Supposedly', he's a well known and well recieved professer..

lol.. civ 4 proves him wrong!

Sure, you don't NEED agriculture to get far in this game, but without it, thats alot of stuff thats wasted.. so many farmable lands.. hunting resources are much rarer (Sept on that one aboreal map).. but you still become sedentary!

That's a bold thing to say from your professor, considering that hunter-gatherer societies that have survived up to our times have not shown the same level of "sophistication" as those who "researched" agriculture. :)

Agriculture led to pottery for grain storage, which led to the need for writing and math to keep track of which pots in the common granary belonged to which person and if there were enough to last the winter.

Irrigation and marking the borders of fields led to construction and geometry.

Study of the seasons to determine when to plant crops (more specifically, when the Nile would flood) led to accurate calendars and astronomy, which led to optics, etc.

Plowing is massively hard work. Until the invention of the horse collar (and oxen yoke, same thing), beasts of burden did about the same work for the amount of food they ate as men. Once they could, instead of a horse doing the work of 8 men and eating 8 times the food, it did the work of 20 men, still on 8 times the food. More planting done for less labor.

Grinding and cooking grains led to mills, driven by oxen, and later by water. Baking bread and firing pottery led to high-temperature ovens that could smelt bronze.

It goes on and on.

What did hunting lead to? Archery? Not much else.

What did hunting lead to? Archery? Not much else.

Hunting lead to the invention of the snare.
A snare is a type of drum.
Drums are a critical component of the ear.
Ears, as you know, are used to listen to music.
And music is often written on sheets of paper.
Paper is used in printers.
Printers are people that produce newspapers.
Newspapers are a form of media.
So are floppy disks.
Rabbits have floppy ears.
They are commonly hunted.

And we're right back to Hunting.
That forms a circle.
Circles are often metaphors for God.
Clearly, Hunting leads to God.

-- excerpt from Attacko's Complete Guide to Research Priority, outlining the importance of the Hunting beeline.

Been following the thread with some amusement because lately for fun I have been mixing it up by strictly limiting myself to 0% Slider and no cottages (both for the whole game!), and protective and or aggressive AI's on Emperor or Immortal.

What did hunting lead to? Archery? Not much else.

Hunting and Archery led to better and more efficient ways to conduct war which has been the single most important activity that has shaped human history.

I highly doubt things like art and science would have come with humans being hunter- gathers. What agriculture did was allow for more free time to put our large brains to use. If we relied on killing things, we'd be constantly moving and tracking our next meal that there would be little time to dwell on the things that have so far improved our life.

A little of topic, but doesn't anybody wonder why you can always skip flight and still be able to build a space ship???? It would be far more logical to make it prerequisite to rocketry.

A little of topic, but doesn't anybody wonder why you can always skip flight and still be able to build a space ship???? It would be far more logical to make it prerequisite to rocketry.

Especially since the fins on a typical rocket use aerodynamics for control even though they are not used to generate lift.

If we relied on killing things, we'd be constantly moving and tracking our next meal that there would be little time to dwell on the things that have so far improved our life.I have read that hunter-gatherers only need spend a few hours a day getting food. Agriculture supported much larger populations but required far more work.

A little of topic, but doesn't anybody wonder why you can always skip flight and still be able to build a space ship???? It would be far more logical to make it prerequisite to rocketry.

Rocketry could be developed without flight, and the two are not all that well coupled in history. I think the CIV tree makes sense in that regard.

I thought it would be nice to go with this, while Carl is somewhere away doing real life business.

I thought picking easier thing skipping mysticism... Well, while it looks like just skipping border pops with monuments [unless you conquer Shenge that is] it kicks up later on.

First no Monarchy [as you can go in it via monotheism or priesthood both needing forbidden Mysticism] so no HR unless Mids...

Secondary no monarchy means no feudalism. Still not big deal itself just no vassals to ease conquest... No feudalsim menas no guilds, while i would not cry over knights this leads to no banking which results in no replacables... Which clearly means no rifles... no infantry... you got the point.

On another hand no meditation means no philosophy which means no freaking lib to win. And still bulbing education is wise as it is only path to gunpowder...

No philo and no DR means no nationalism. So no drafting, no Taj and no miltary tradition...

What we have left? Trebs, maces, grens, cannons and i believe artilery... More than enough to conquer world as long as I have enough production cities. Maybe GT whipping centre will be required...

As leader picks goes i definitely said no to creative, charisnmatic and portective. To ease myself i wanted spiritual, but that basically leaves me with Ramses. Alternatively i could pick ottomans for janissaries.

It would be emperor epic as i do not have balls to do this on immortal...

Did i miss anything in my planning?..

I like to travel to Alpha Centauri without computers, just using an abacus (powered by superconductors) to navigate.

i am afraid rocketry need rifling which back all way to mysticism... So no Appollo program...

Honestly i thought of going culture... even without these academies...

Go ahead and pick this up. I'm pretty busy right now, which is why I haven't played this or finished the Immortal Cookbook game. If anyone wants to continue that series too, feel free. I'm quite busy right now, and while I still play from time to time it's just for fun, no reports. :)

Actually I think that skipping agriculture might be the easiest of all since agriculture is not required for any techs.

The worst skip would be the wheel. :eek:

NPM

Why would skipping the wheel would be bad? Perfectly feasible in a pangea ( ok, nothing more advanced that cuiraseer and catapults, but who cares? )

Well, if there aren't many rivers it will be a pain finding city sites that can be connected to the trade network; and lack of mobility in your territory will significantly slow you down too. For quick conquest you can get by without cottages but no granaries is also a very harsh blow.
r_rolo is right that the tech tree ends basically the same as Mining since both wheel and mining are needed for metal casting.

And hunting is definitely easiest - like Ag it doesn't block anything except archery, which most is often skipped anyways, and farms >> camps.

Why would skipping the wheel would be bad? Perfectly feasible in a pangea ( ok, nothing more advanced that cuiraseer and catapults, but who cares? )

The problem with skipping the wheel is three-fold:

1) No cottages: No the wheel means no pottery and no cottages, thus trade will be somewhat hard to come by. This is not the worst problem however.

2a) No roads: This means you can't link up resources! You could only share resources if you had resources on rivers that flowed through costal towns. Then costal towns (only) could share the resources. This means extremely reduced happy and health caps compared to other skipper scenarios. Plus...

2b) No roads: This means defending your empire and moving troops around will be very difficult.

NPM

P.S. It could be much worse! If pottery were an automatic requirement for writing (instead of an optional one) then writing would also be lost without the wheel. That would close off the vast majority of the remaining tech tree!

The problem with skipping the wheel is three-fold:

1) No cottages: No the wheel means no pottery and no cottages, thus trade will be somewhat hard to come by. This is not the worst problem however.

2a) No roads: This means you can't link up resources! You could only share resources if you had resources on rivers that flowed through costal towns. Then costal towns (only) could share the resources. This means extremely reduced happy and health caps compared to other skipper scenarios. Plus...

2b) No roads: This means defending your empire and moving troops around will be very difficult.

NPM

P.S. It could be much worse! If pottery were an automatic requirement for writing (instead of an optional one) then writing would also be lost without the wheel. That would close off the vast majority of the remaining tech tree!

All the things you mentioned are not as bad as you stated. This is self-publicity, but I recently hosted a sucession game where, among other things, none of those were avaliable ....

And about roads: just because you can't do them: it doesn't mean that you don't have them :p

Hmmm....this got me thinking. If you have a city that isn't connected to your trade network, and you trade for a happiness resource from an AI, does that city get the benefit or not? I would assume not, but if it did then you'd be better off to trade all of you resources away for AI resources so you could get the benefit in every city.

I'm thinking without roads, you'd be better off conquering most of your cities, hoping that the AI already connected them for you. No cottages? Some people swear by it (here's lookin at you Obsolete.) The biggest disadvantage would be no granary, so whipping loses a lot of it's pizzazz. Holy cow I don't think I've ever typed that word before.