Great People:

- Great Minstrel (Great Artist)
Culture Bomb
Bulb a Tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Artisan (Great Engineer)
Hurry Production of a Building
Bulb a Tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Loremaster (Great Scientist)
Sage's Library (Academy)
Bulb a Tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Trader (Great Merchant)
Trade Mission
Bulb a Tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Commander (Great General)
Command Post (Military Academy)
Recruitment (Recruit Units)
Attatch to a Unit


Removed:

- Great Prophet
- Great Spy

Yeah, Great Prophets aren't useful.

Great Generals should be a category apart from heroes. Heroes are units, generals can attach. Question is, how do we decide who's a general and who's a hero?

Drop prophets for sure. Others should be renamed. I'm personally not sure about merchants either, if only because we'll be having a hard time to come up with names for them ;), they should be in I guess.

Great Generals... not to sure about them, maybe we can drop them as well (FFH has great commander IIRC, haven't played a game far enough to actually get them so I had to look them up. As far as I can tell they are generated with GPP instead of experience. This would be nice to attach to some of the defensive buildings (Stronghold eg).

Proposal:
- Great Engineer
- Great Minstrel (Artist, FFH has Great Bard, but we have Bard as a leader, so I prefer Minstrel to avoid confusion)
- Great Merchant
- Great Commander (FFH style)
- Great Loremaster (scientist, FFH has Sage, but I like the sound of Loremaster better).

Open to suggestions as allways.

Good ideas all. To be honest I kind of forgot abouy having to come up with names. I'm sure we can do it however.

EDIT: Updated List in 1st Post

Agreed with all names (Loremaster does sound better somehow...)

AFAIK, Great Commanders in FFH work like GG's normally do. I got one once, but I was being all builder and never used him for anything.

And the naming is going to be challenging. Are we going to want to use the Civ-specific Great People mod for this, or just universal names that happen to pop up in the wrong place?

Can you link me the civ-specific Great People mod (just in case)?

I think that we will have a hard enough time to come up with names, so forcing us to get a list of names for the Easterlings and Haradrim is a bit much I think.

Well, I think I might have some old MERP stuff in storage. I might be able to get some names from that if all else fails. We should try to make them as Civ specific as possible if that is doable. Otherwise we should just remove the names and just have it say that you have recieve a Great "whatever".

I should have that lying around somewhere too. I had completely forgotten about that.

Those names should work fine, as long as they sound like they go with the civ noone'll notice.

Here's the mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199344

The BTS version looks halfway decent, but the list resets upon reload of the mod (and only then, if you start a new game without reloading the mod, you start halfway down the list).

There also is a minor problem with logging the birth of these GP, so atm I think it's more work then it's worth, so I'd vote no on this one (at the very least for now, there's a slight possibility that I get bored for a next release and whip something up myself, but don't count on it).

Yeah, this probably falls into the category of 'things we'll do after the first release'.

What we had were Great Sage (Loremaster is the best), Great Bard (Minstrel sounds better) and Great Artisan (Engineer is not apropriate). Also, the same goes for specialists.

Great Artisian does sound better. I am updating the first post appropriately.

A vote Yes for Artisan.

YES, I couldn't come up with anything for engineer, though I really didn't like the name. Artisan is better in so many ways.

So, unless we want to change the name of Great Merchant we have our Core list. Any ideas for a changed name for it? Or shoudl we leave that one as is?

Do we want to add any others from other Mods? Such as:

Healer
Diplomat
etc.

I wouldn't add others, and I still can't think of a better name for Great Merchant, so I'm fine with the list as is (if someone else can come up with a better name for GM, it would be more then welcome).

I like the names as we have them now. Great merchant is fine I think, I wouldn't know a better name at least. As for the Great Commander in FFH2: I think the biggest difference is that the Great Commander can be seperated from the unit. We have to see if we want that if we also already have captain national units, because it is pretty similar. Than I personally would go with the captain unit and leave out the Great Commander completely or have him not join units maybe. We have already heroes, king units, captain units and than also a commander? I think maybe a little much.

Comment on the civ specific GP: I like the idea, especially for such a mod as hours that you don't get an orc or isengard leader or something as gondor. But I agree with Sengir, maybe not for a first release. If I have some time I'll check through the mod to see how much effort it would be to integrate it into FFH2 framework.

Yeah, Great Commander might be a bit much, though FFH has a form of captains as well (Champoins/Immortals). They don't have king units though.

I think I agree. With Kings/Heroes/Captains, the Great Commander might be a bit much.

Should this one be removed? I think it might be a good idea.

Good point, attach a Great Commander to a Hero or King and that's a way overpowered unit.
We've got enough special military people, so we can get rid of it.

Well, it looks like most want the Great Commander want it out since we have so many other Special units allready. I am making that chagne in the first post.

Removed: Great Commander (Great General)

I agree for now to take it out. Although we have to see how the game mechanics for spawning a great general/commander from combat works so we can disable that. Otherwise we may get horrible crashes if it is to far embedded.

Elda King mentioned the Great Spy. I forgot about it. What do you think? Should we put one in?

Undecided about the spy. I don't the espionage system is going to work within the context of Arda, so we might want to leave it out.

FFH does not have the espionage system at all and I'm personnally also not a fan of it in the fantasy LotR context were building here. I think it won't fit.

I am also leaning towards leaving it out. We will see what a few others think before making a final decision however.

I agree that it doesn't really fit. I am a bit biased though, I always turn espionage off in normal Civ games anyway because I don't like having to think about that along with everything else.

Done then. I think we will just leave out the Great Spy and the espionage system. Perhaps one day we can come up with something special for it, but deffinately not in the first few releases. I am updating the firspost to reflect this decision.

There is a way we could have the Great Commander still, if we want it.

#1: Build a Military Academy (+15% Unit Production Speed, +5% City Defence (all of those recruits/trainees in the City).

#2: Become a Military Instructor (granting +1 or +2 XP to units built in that city, Limited to 1 per city).

#3: Attaches to a Unit but only grants +1 or +2 XP as the Military Instructor.

If it is a no, do we consider the list as Finalized except for specific Great Person names?

Maybe we could drop the xp's alltogether (or indeed only 1/2) and have it enable some specific Commander promotions (though captians would probably have access to these promotions as well, making the attaching more usefull earlier in the game.)

Probably drop the unattaching as well.

Okay sounds good.

That is an idea Sengir. I would recomend it being something the Captain does not get However. Perhpas it is only 1 Promotion that it offers though.

So:

#1: Build a Military Academy (+15% Unit Production Speed, +5% City Defence (all of those recruits/trainees in the City).

#2: Become a Military Instructor (granting +1 or +2 XP to units built in that city, Limited to 1 per city).

#3: Attaches to a Unit but only grants 1 Promotion.

I have a proposal. As far as I know, the mages were "The Great People" of the LOTR world.
Maybe have a great person like a great mage, resembling a lesser mage and not have mages buildable.
This is simply becouse in the LOTR world, mages are not that comon as in the FFH world.

That is possible I suppose. We are tending this towards an extremely "Magic Light" game though. Also, I think we are going to have a wonder buildable that would allow the Istari as special Hero/Istari Units. So, thoughts on this new suggestion by PPQ Purple?

Wonder/Project for Istari sounds better I think, since we are indeed going magic-light.

(The new Magic Lite! /commercial_parody)

#3: Attaches to a Unit but only grants 1 Promotion.


My specific idea for this line of thought is:

1 Promotion, but also, it is the only way to get that particular promotion. Perhaps it is the Leadership? one that gives the +100% XP to the unit? That would be the only promotion that the Great Commander gives. Which makes sence given its name.

So it is now decision time:

#1: Implement this idea of Great Commander in; or do not include the Great Commander.

#2: Consider adding in Great Mage as a Great Person as per PPQ Purple's suggestion?

Does anyone other than Maiar use technical 'magic' at all? If some did, then go with Great Mage, otherwise, leave him out.

Great Commander - I'm fine with having him in strictly for the military academy/Great Military Instructor (if we want to attach him to units we'd have to so underpower him that it would be a waste), though I also am fine with leaving him out entirely.

As to the Magic, yes, others used it. The Elves (who also taught some select stuff to some men), the Istari, and Sauron taught some out. The Nazgul, apparently the Mouth of Sauron was supposed to be quite the Sorcerer. Besides Elves however, I wouldn't say it was all that common.

I don't like the great mage concept. I'm not sure how to include it exactly but for UU and Hero/King units of the civs we can tweak and tune it per unit (Sauron, Witch-King, Mouth of Sauron, Elrond, ...) and for the Istari we really have to see what is the best way to include them. Since we have Isengard as a civ, Saruman is already there anyway. For Gandalf, Radagast and the blue wizards, maybe they can be events or something or maybe a quest you have to fullfill to get one of them (and you can never complete more than one quest so you can never get two wizards for your civ). Also maybe restrict Gandalf to good, Radagast to neutral and the blue wizards to neutral and evil? Or something to that effect.

About the Great mage: No. That would be to much magic IMHO. As Berenthor said, the UU's and hero/king units will be tweaked to have their magic, but regularly available units shouldn't have access to it.

About the commander, I don't like to limit it to one promotion, I would prefer a couple of promotions (some might be available to Captains as well, though not all, after thinking about it having it double as captian is a bit boring). Otherwise I'd restrict him to instructor/academy

Also, what will our Great Person be capable off?

The List:

- Great Minstrel (Great Artist)
Culture Bomb
Bulb a tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Artisian (Great Engineer)
Hurry production of a building
Bulb a tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Loremaster (Great Scientist)
Academy??? Does this fit? Other name perhaps?
Bulb a tech
Golden Age
Settling

- Great Merchant
Trade Mission
Bulb a tech
Golden Age
Settling



If we leave him in:
- Great Commander (Great General)
Military Academy (change name?)
Military Instructor (change name?)
attaching to a unit?

Agreed. I don't know a good other name for the academy or the commander things. I will think about it. The rest of the list is fine.

I agree. The Istari should be a Project you can build and get 1 based on the Alignment of the Civ. Only 4 Projects can be built (This way, not including Saruman).

Perhaps the Academy could be renamed Sage's Library.

Not sure about the Great Commander name changes.

I like the list Sengir, I will update the 1st post with it.

How about Recruitment Office instead of Military Academy? I allways thought it strange that an academy would turn out units faster instead of better.

That sounds good. Too modern though? or is it just fine as is?

Yeah, it feels a bit modern, I'll go through my (history) books a bit to see if I can come up with something with a more medieval feel.

We could eliminate the Attaching to a unit. If it does attach to a unit, I think it should have a least 1 promotion that only it can provide. I am fine with it being able to give more than 1 promotion. I was thinking that instead of granting XP, we could limit it in the way that it only Grants 1 Promotion, but you choose which 1 from a list.

I agree with the attaching giving at least one promotion not otherwise available and giving a promotion instead of xp.

If we want to attach them that's probably the best idea.

Agreed on the rest, I don't know what a period-appropriate equivalent to Recruitment Office would be. I like Sage's Library or some variation on Library instead of Academy (idea: a Vanyar UB should be a replacement to the Great Sage's building).

I will incorpate the Great Commander back into the main list. Updated Academy to the Sage's Library.

If we want to attach them that's probably the best idea.

Agreed on the rest, I don't know what a period-appropriate equivalent to Recruitment Office would be. I like Sage's Library or some variation on Library instead of Academy (idea: a Vanyar UB should be a replacement to the Great Sage's building).

I personnally don't like a UB that replaces a building that only a great person can build. This is way to limiting in my opinion (or it should only be one of the UB's).

I agree that a UB shouldn't replace the Academy (or whatever we have named it :crazyeye: )

I think the last things to be discussed on this topics are:

1) Name of Military Instructor & Military Academy

2) What should Attaching a Great Commander do?

And just because I finally thought of a different name for Great Merchant:

3) How about Great Peddler instead of Merchant?

My suggestions:
1) War Veteran (Military Instructor) & Recruit Lodgings (Military Academy) (not to happy with the last one)

2) Give Great Commander Promo (which opens up some promos available to Captains and some promos available to Great Commander units only) and 1 free promo (to be picked at the players leisure, no limits, other then meeting the prereqs).

3) Absolutely awesome, how wonderfull of you to think of this simply splendid name :D (I like it, as I don't think merchants really fit the setting, but if we keep merchant, that's fine with me as well).

1) War Vetern is good, not sure about the other

2) I would suggest a small list of promotions available to choose from. 1 Automatic Promotion, not XP

3) Not sure about Peddler

EDIT: Ninja'ed; Will update soon!

EDIT: Updated.

Also, Great Artisian should be Great Artisan

Fixed now.

Another suggestion for Great Merchant: Great Trader (I'm still not quite happy with Great Merchant. Somehow it feels anachronistic to the mod... ah well, probably just me.)

We could just call it: Trade Caravan

oooh, I like.
That would solve problems finding names for them as well (at least, we can get creative with them)

I like the ideas. Trade caravans is fine although I can also go with great merchant or great trader.

So, what are we going to name it then:

#1: Great Merchant
#2: Great Peddler
#3: Great Trader
#4: Trade Caravan
#5: Merchant Caravan

Post your vote!

After this, we go back to the Great Commander and finish off the incidentals and then we have a finalized Great Person list (minus the individual names)

My preference, from best to worst:

#3 Great Trader (Because it has the 'Great' in its name to avoid confusion)
#4 Trade Caravan (While I like this better, the lack of Great means that it might be confusing)
#2 Great Peddler (Sounds better to me then Merchant, which sounds anachronistic to me)
#1 Great Merchant (Familiar to all, and has Great in it)
#5 Merchant Caravan (not Great, and still merchant. Still, I rate it higher then Great Merchant if it wasn't for the convention of having great people start with Great).

Great Trader
Trade Caravan
Great Merchant
Merchant Caravan
Great Pebbler.

-Great Trader
-Trade Caravan (though it doesn't sound like a Great Person)
-Great Merchant
-Great Peddler (sounds... underwhelming)
-Merchant Caravan

Great Trader it is. Now, on to the Great Comanders abilities. Renaming of the Building and Isntructor type.

Please submit ideas. Also, I have now updated the Great Merchant to Great Trader. Also updating the Buildings list as appropriate.

Okay, we just need to finish the 2 things for the Great Commander and this is Finalized. If possible, it would be breat to get this done today.

So what we need are name changes for the following.

Military Academy
Military Instructor

I played some FFH last night and managed to get a Great Commander. He was able to build a "Command Post" (Mix of Mil Acad and Mil Instr.), recruit units (only once, number of units depending on city limit). I think there was something else but my head is hurting and I can't remember it.

I think that at least Command Post would be a usable name, even if we decide that we don't go with the recruiting thing.

Sounds good to me. I think the only other think the commander is able to do is attaching it to a unit.

Okay, so Command Post is in for the Name, I will change it now.

Are we taking out the Military Instructor/Settling option and replacing it with the Recruitment? Or are we keeping settling and adding Recruitment?

That depends on whether we go with few xp's as in BtS or high xp's as in FFH. If we go with high xp's (my favourite), i'd say settling won't be as usefull, as xp's can be gotten from many different sources, so keep it to recruitment only.

Recruitment sounds great, and yeah, if there is a lot of XP, settling does not do much.

I'd like to also here from Berenthor on this, but I don't have a problem with dropping the settling.

I agree with what is said above. I like the high xp's (if we have enough usefull promos) but when we provide it in different ways, settling is not really neccessary.
So the great commander does: recruitment, build command post and attaching (if I remember correctly)?

Sounds Good, I will update appropriately the 1st post.

1 last thing to decide now. For the 1st release, are we going to try and come up with specific names for the great people, or are we just going to have it pop up that a Great "whateveritis" has been born?

I think they names should wait until release 2 unless we can somehow come up with them. I would suggest (just a suggestion) to call the Great people Finalized, then if we can come up with enough names in time, we can upadte the list appropriately, but this way we are not forced to do it if it is too much trouble to get it done in time for the release.

I have no problem with leaving it at "whateveritis" for the first time around.

Agreed
(tenchars)

We will just wait and see what T_F thinks then.

A Great _____ has been born in ______! sounds fine to me. Let's leave the filler detail for later.

Okay then. I will add it to the finalized list.