I got the idea from Phlegmak here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7880090&postcount=131).

At first I didn't believe it, thinking it was the French and/or Italians. After some thought I came up with these categories:

Philosophy
Mathematics
Science
Art
Literature
Music

I am sure there are more, but those are just off of the top of my head. Sure the Italians had the Art category covered, but where is their contribution to Philosophy? The French surely had Literature, but I cannot think of a single French composer. While the Germans may not win every category, they are strong competitors in each.

This thread is not meant to glorify a single nation, but to provide a channel for a rational and thoughtful discussion on the contributors to Modern Western Culture. Please, feel free to discuss more categories than the six I have listed (after five minutes of thinking) and fill in major individual contributors.

As always, thanks ahead of time.

I would have to say, in an uninformed manner, that America has had the biggest impact on Western culture. This just comes from the fact that everywhere you look, there is something American. But I suppose something influenced America, and is also influential to modern western culture is less noticeable, or less visible, ways.

CHINA. They invented wheel, paper, gunpowder, printing press, modern economic theory, the Big Bang, philosophy, Industrial Revolution, science, food, silk, porcelain, factories, Confucianism, Smithian economic theory, Chewbacca, Socialism, rice balls, samurai, the free market, Buddhism, Human Rights, toilets, toilet paper, war, peace, taxation, modern civilization, corruption, guns, Zheng He, ships, water wheels, windmills, steam power, electricity, nuclear bombs, atomic theory, ironclads, Koreans, time travel, steel, and the kitchen sink. :D

Anyway, people should define what "contributor" means to them before posting, because things are going to be silly otherwise--but then again, some people just don't read (like Muhammad!).

Warned for trolling. - KD

Sure the Italians had the Art category covered, but where is their contribution to Philosophy?

Thomas Aquinas, for one. Not particularly modern, I suppose, but still extremely important.

If you were looking at the music category, it would be reasonable to say that Germany has had the most influence, IMO. If you look at the famous composers that formed the basis of modern music (polyphony?), then they are to a large extent German, or Austrian. Okay, so maybe Germanic nations instead of Germany.

Everyone is either Greek or wants to be Greek. Much of modern Western culture actually originated there in antiquity, like that whole democracy thing. I know you wanted modern nations, but it's next to impossible to overlook Greece.

Greeks, Jews and Arabs. Sometimes western European (Celts and Germanics) native, northern European (Vikings, Ugric-Finns), Eastern European (Slavs, note to our Polish posters, Poland IS Eastern European).

As categories would an Entertainment be appropriate? That would encompass mainly film, tv, with possibly some Literature overlap if one includes some popular fiction. Historyas a category, might that be worthwhile if one includes nonfiction texts on history, biography, economic analysis, sociological treatises,etc.? Basically items that are neither Entertainment nor Literature as generally thought of.

It seems to me that both categories (Entertainment and History) are both "Contributors to Modern Western Culture" -- if I'm understanding the OP correctly, he was talking mostly about current or near current contributors not the Ancients like Plato or Rome or Egypt or etc. -- and "Modern Western Culture" does make extensive use of Entertainment and does somewhat engage in self-analysis of itself, its beliefs, values, and history [History].

Just submitting for discussion...

Thomas Aquinas, for one. Not particularly modern, I suppose, but still extremely important.

Probably St. Augustine too. Wikipedia attributes 'original sin' and 'just war' concepts to him. 'Just war' at least persisted popularly. And extending Aristotle 'prime mover' concepts to the concept of God as the cause of the universe. Where'd Western Culture be without it's fundie heritage? A set of rump states of the Islamic Caliphate?

And then Erasmus and Martin Luther for seeding the path for controversial alternatives. Ultimately controversy (and related wars, drive for theological independence, then pluralism) must have helped with secularization of the modern states, no? Just looking back to admire humanist and pantheistic beliefs wouldn't trigger secularization, no?

Obviously he was a contrinutor, but definitely not Italian:

Augustine was of Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) descent.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#cite_note-9) He was born in A.D. 354 in Thagaste (present-day Souk Ahras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souk_Ahras), Algeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria)).

And to educate Godwynn about French composers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_composers.

Personally I think Desprez, Lully, Couperin, Berlioz, Gounod, Saint-Saens, Fauré, Debussy, Satie, Ravel, Messiaen and Boulex can't be missed.

As concerns Italian philosophers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_philosophers.

I personally did some reading on Giordano Bruno and Machiavelli, but there are definitely other not to be missed.

Hope that helps.;)

The French surely had Literature, but I cannot think of a single French composer. While the Germans may not win every category, they are strong competitors in each.

Per literature, I'm less then convinced of French dominance. I think one needs to take a more appraising look at the uncouth British. Shakespeare still dominates tragedy like no other writer before or since. I would be tempted to say Wilde has a similar affect on comedy. In terms of poetry Britain overflows: Blake, Burns, Tennyson, Kipling, Yeats, Keats, Owen spring immediately to mind. And let us not forget Milton's Paradise Lost. As for your novels, I'd give both countries props for jointly fathering Science Fiction (Verne/Wells). i think on a broarder scale British novelists easily hold their own, if not being in the ascendant. Dickens, Austen, Lewis Caroll, Tolkien, Jonathan Swift, Huxley, Orwell, Wyndham, Shelly, Lawrence and Hardy are at least equal to Voltaire, Camus, Hugo et al.
British literature is more distinguished then one would immediately assume.

I'd also argue in sub-category invention Brits have a clear lead. Mainly by dint of being first of the 'industrialisation' mark. Whether this can bring home the rest of science is another matter.

A thousand pardons, I was quite busy today and have returned!

I would have to say, in an uninformed manner, that America has had the biggest impact on Western culture. This just comes from the fact that everywhere you look, there is something American. But I suppose something influenced America, and is also influential to modern western culture is less noticeable, or less visible, ways.

I should have been more specific. Let's set an arbitrary time limit to the term "Modern." I would like to see this discussion start at the beginning of the Renaissance to the present.

As categories would an Entertainment be appropriate? That would encompass mainly film, tv, with possibly some Literature overlap if one includes some popular fiction. Historyas a category, might that be worthwhile if one includes nonfiction texts on history, biography, economic analysis, sociological treatises,etc.? Basically items that are neither Entertainment nor Literature as generally thought of.

It seems to me that both categories (Entertainment and History) are both "Contributors to Modern Western Culture" -- if I'm understanding the OP correctly, he was talking mostly about current or near current contributors not the Ancients like Plato or Rome or Egypt or etc. -- and "Modern Western Culture" does make extensive use of Entertainment and does somewhat engage in self-analysis of itself, its beliefs, values, and history [History].

Just submitting for discussion...

Indeed I was referring near current contributors. Well, moreso than the Greeks and Romans (who I think indisputably founded Western Culture?)

And then Erasmus and Martin Luther for seeding the path for controversial alternatives. Ultimately controversy (and related wars, drive for theological independence, then pluralism) must have helped with secularization of the modern states, no? Just looking back to admire humanist and pantheistic beliefs wouldn't trigger secularization, no?

A most marvelous post GoodGame. How could I have forgotten Martin Luther?! I am embarrassed. I believe he changed Western Culture more than anyone else since the beginning of the Renaissance (perhaps I am forgetting another obvious character?)

[/I]And to educate Godwynn about French composers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_composers.

Personally I think Desprez, Lully, Couperin, Berlioz, Gounod, Saint-Saens, Fauré, Debussy, Satie, Ravel, Messiaen and Boulex can't be missed.

As concerns Italian philosophers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_philosophers.

I personally did some reading on Giordano Bruno and Machiavelli, but there are definitely other not to be missed.

Hope that helps.;)

Indeed, it does help. Though I couldn't name any French composer off of the top of my head. How could I forget Machiavelli? Good Lord, I am slipping! Thank you for your response.

Per literature, I'm less then convinced of French dominance. I think one needs to take a more appraising look at the uncouth British. Shakespeare still dominates tragedy like no other writer before or since. I would be tempted to say Wilde has a similar affect on comedy. In terms of poetry Britain overflows: Blake, Burns, Tennyson, Kipling, Yeats, Keats, Owen spring immediately to mind. And let us not forget Milton's Paradise Lost. As for your novels, I'd give both countries props for jointly fathering Science Fiction (Verne/Wells). i think on a broarder scale British novelists easily hold their own, if not being in the ascendant. Dickens, Austen, Lewis Caroll, Tolkien, Jonathan Swift, Huxley, Orwell, Wyndham, Shelly, Lawrence and Hardy are at least equal to Voltaire, Camus, Hugo et al.
British literature is more distinguished then one would immediately assume.

I'd also argue in sub-category invention Brits have a clear lead. Mainly by dint of being first of the 'industrialisation' mark. Whether this can bring home the rest of science is another matter.

I did not mean that the French "win" if there can be such a thing, it was merely an example. I have taken an entire course on British Literature, and indeed, the British can hold their own in this regard.

What do you have in mind when it comes to invention? I think that would belong in a Science category. Newton and Turing are the first two to come to my mind. Perhaps this is only for us finance types, but the Anglo-American Shareholder Wealth Maximization Model of business deserves some recognition, for better or for worse.

I would now like to receive some recommendations for major individual contributors to Modern Western Culture. This isn't a "who is the best?" as I don't think there is an objective way to find the best. I will enjoy a moderate list of big movers and shakers within Western Culture. For example, I think Leonardo da Vinci, Martin Luther, and Immanuel Kant should be on the list.

What do you all think of: Galileo Galilei? Gottfried Leibniz? Thomas Jefferson? Isaac Newton?

If you have further suggestions on national achievements, please feel free to state them.

Thank you all.

Sure the Italians had the Art category covered, but where is their contribution to Philosophy?

..and because philosophy has already been covered, let me remind you all of Bellini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenzo_Bellini), Cherubini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Cherubini), Corelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcangelo_Corelli), Donizetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Donizetti), Frescobaldi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Frescobaldi), Monteverdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Monteverdi), Paganini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Paganini) Palestrina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Pierluigi_da_Palestrina), Puccini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Puccini), Rossini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gioacchino_Rossini), Scarlatti padre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Scarlatti) and figlio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Scarlatti), Verdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Verdi) and Vivaldi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vivaldi).
Also, Amati built the first modern violin and Cristofori the first pianoforte.

Yep, overall we come second to Germans, but still not that behind. :)

Ya, the germans have the world somwhat dominated in the philosophy department. There was an old quote by an author of a book called "a short history of philosohpy:" "The british rule the waves in their ships, the french rule the lands with their generals, and the germans rule the air with their epistomology and metaphysics."

A most marvelous post GoodGame. How could I have forgotten Martin Luther?! I am embarrassed. I believe he changed Western Culture more than anyone else since the beginning of the Renaissance (perhaps I am forgetting another obvious character?)



I'm not a historian, I'm just curious on it (so I apologize if I made a clever, semi-educated post :) ), what would be considered more important to getting Europe to culturally transition from a religious quasi-unity to increasingly secular states. Greco-Roman humanism is an important slap in the face to theocratic culture, but is it important enough on it's own? I think Protestantism is really important for stirring up popular controversy, and also gives the monarchs convenient excuses to pursuing their separate agendas from the quasi-unity of the latin Christendom. And then later on, the mixing of catholicism and protestantism in countries gives a cause for sharing power and limiting the importance of religion on politics, in the interest of internal stability. In my mind, it seems that's a solid path to valuing secularization of government.

I'm not a historian, I'm just curious on it (so I apologize if I made a clever, semi-educated post :) ), what would be considered more important to getting Europe to culturally transition from a religious quasi-unity to increasingly secular states. Greco-Roman humanism is an important slap in the face to theocratic culture, but is it important enough on it's own? I think Protestantism is really important for stirring up popular controversy, and also gives the monarchs convenient excuses to pursuing their separate agendas from the quasi-unity of the latin Christendom. And then later on, the mixing of catholicism and protestantism in countries gives a cause for sharing power and limiting the importance of religion on politics, in the interest of internal stability. In my mind, it seems that's a solid path to valuing secularization of government.
I'd say the Thirty Year War and the resulting Peace of Westphalia had a wee bit to do with it.

I am sure there are more, but those are just off of the top of my head. Sure the Italians had the Art category covered, but where is their contribution to Philosophy? The French surely had Literature, but I cannot think of a single French composer.

Surely you've heard of Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel, or George Bizet

I'd say the Thirty Year War and the resulting Peace of Westphalia had a wee bit to do with it.

Yes, but symptom or cause?

Probably St. Augustine too. Wikipedia attributes 'original sin' and 'just war' concepts to him. 'Just war' at least persisted popularly. And extending Aristotle 'prime mover' concepts to the concept of God as the cause of the universe. Where'd Western Culture be without it's fundie heritage? A set of rump states of the Islamic Caliphate?

I don't see how you could call Augustine of Hippo a fundamentalist (any more than you could call him an Italian!). And you obviously can't trust Wikipedia on theological matters; Augustine didn't invent the doctrine of original sin, and he wasn't an Aristotelian.

I'd like to point out that more books have been written about Martin Luther than about any other individual in history other than Jesus. I would certainly agree with his nomination as the most historically significant individual of modern times, in the given sense of "modern".

In philosophy, it seems that different countries dominate at different times. In the sixteenth century, Spanish philosophers dominated. In the seventeenth, it was the French. In the eighteenth, there was a bit of a mixture, but it was swinging towards the Germans, who took complete possession in the nineteenth. In the twentieth it was the British and the Americans and I think it still is.

Yes, but symptom or cause?
A little from column a and a little from column B. Seriously, the state system existed outside of the Holy Roman Empire in all-but-name by that point anyway, it just formalised it and extended it to everyone.

Monarchs were distancing themselves from the Papacy before Protestantism. King John of England is a great example, though he awesomely pledged England to the Papacy and was rewarded by being given it as a fief - meaning that England to this day may legally belong to the Pope, if one wants to make the claim - and having the Pope switch sides in the war he was fighting. Westphalia was the cherry on the sundae, the reformation the cream, and the monarchs' desire for power the substance.

DEFINE MODERN WESTERN CULTURE?

Modern Western Culture? I say it derives from the Amsterdam Stock Exchange

Firstly, when I say Western, I mean the collaborative cultures of the Imperial Great European Powers since the end of the Seven Years War to the 2nd World War, except for Russia. To be clear, the aristocratic cultures of Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, the USA and perhaps to a lesser extent Spain and the Netherlands

BEST CONTRIBUTOR TO MODERN WESTERN CULTURE?

Modern Western Culture can be best seen by it's ever present influence on the entire world. We have crude forms of Western Culture such as Dilbert comic strips and Rihanna Songs. And we have the epitome of the Various Western culture achieved in the interwar period. The Suit. The suit represents three things. Mass wealth, Mass Production (which is supported by Mass wealth) and overall Making a hell lot of money.

WHY THE SUIT REPRESENTING MONEY? WHY MONEY?

Today, Politicians, businessmen and perhaps Pastors, wear suits to their occasions, to their jobs. They have transcend all political and cultural boundaries. They are obviously Western in origins, the first suits coming from the end of the 18th century in the European courts of London to Berlin. It was then better define by the British in Regency Period and the beginning of the Victorian Era.

THE SUIT INFLUENCING POLICTICS

The Suit is the symbol of capitalism and business. Of making money. And ever since the Europeans begin to peer out of their continent for business opportunities, European culture, lifestyles and politics revolved around business, reaching State priorities in The Netherlands and Britain and later the Americans. Even in other countries, economics was King. Napoleon invaded Egypt to control routes to India for business (as well as scare Britain), France joined the American Revolution not only to extract revenge for the Seven Years war, but to also break British monopoly on American trade. Peter's Russia went to war with Sweden and Ottomans to secure a Port to connect with Europe politically as well as economically. Money was the agenda for various Anglo-Dutch wars.

THE SUIT INFLUENCING CULTURE
When there is money to be made, the wealthy investor invests in it, the investment, one way or the other results in the hiring of poor/wealth seeking workers. If the investment pays off, everyone prospers, even a little bit. The workers get paid, the investor gets richer. People get richer and begin to buy more luxuries. Luxuries may range from a salted food to a silk dress but the point is, people want more good things, entertainment, food, dressing, houses whatever. Industries for this are in demand. People produce these things, and in order to remain competitive, people produce new and more unique things.

For example, Mozart became famous because he was child prodigy, families with the money to buy tickets demand for him, courts invite him to play for pay. Mozart was in an environment where money spurs people to spur him to create grander displays of his musical genius. In the 1700's to 1850's the rich or those who got rich through the power of money hired bands of musicians to personally play for them. Beethoven was one such man, playing for the Elector of Cologne. He is to later rise, from his post to become a brilliant composer.

Now, there was rich people in the past and this would work then too. But it was only in the 1700's when the inflow of money towards the poorer people begin to increase in large amounts. As the industrial revolution came on, more and more people were able to gain wealth, which in turn spurred the production of the cultural entertainment.

Sure there were those people who contributed to culture not for money. But they are small compared to those who worked for money. I doubt Dickens wrote only for the sole joy of writing. The money itself itself must be at least a small motivation to write.

Lastly, other aspects of culture such as Tea-drinking, tobacco-smoking, silk wearing are quite obviously the products of money.

Capitalism is perhaps the greatest contributors to Modern Western Culture.

In philosophy, it seems that different countries dominate at different times. In the sixteenth century, Spanish philosophers dominated. In the seventeenth, it was the French. In the eighteenth, there was a bit of a mixture, but it was swinging towards the Germans, who took complete possession in the nineteenth. In the twentieth it was the British and the Americans and I think it still is.

Could you please give me some names of Spanish philosophers? I am about to give the Wikipedia servers a work-out.

DEFINE MODERN WESTERN CULTURE?

Modern Western Culture? I say it derives from the Amsterdam Stock Exchange

Firstly, when I say Western, I mean the collaborative cultures of the Imperial Great European Powers since the end of the Seven Years War to the 2nd World War, except for Russia. To be clear, the aristocratic cultures of Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, the USA and perhaps to a lesser extent Spain and the Netherlands

BEST CONTRIBUTOR TO MODERN WESTERN CULTURE?

Modern Western Culture can be best seen by it's ever present influence on the entire world. We have crude forms of Western Culture such as Dilbert comic strips and Rihanna Songs. And we have the epitome of the Various Western culture achieved in the interwar period. The Suit. The suit represents three things. Mass wealth, Mass Production (which is supported by Mass wealth) and overall Making a hell lot of money.

WHY THE SUIT REPRESENTING MONEY? WHY MONEY?

Today, Politicians, businessmen and perhaps Pastors, wear suits to their occasions, to their jobs. They have transcend all political and cultural boundaries. They are obviously Western in origins, the first suits coming from the end of the 18th century in the European courts of London to Berlin. It was then better define by the British in Regency Period and the beginning of the Victorian Era.

THE SUIT INFLUENCING POLICTICS

The Suit is the symbol of capitalism and business. Of making money. And ever since the Europeans begin to peer out of their continent for business opportunities, European culture, lifestyles and politics revolved around business, reaching State priorities in The Netherlands and Britain and later the Americans. Even in other countries, economics was King. Napoleon invaded Egypt to control routes to India for business (as well as scare Britain), France joined the American Revolution not only to extract revenge for the Seven Years war, but to also break British monopoly on American trade. Peter's Russia went to war with Sweden and Ottomans to secure a Port to connect with Europe politically as well as economically. Money was the agenda for various Anglo-Dutch wars.

THE SUIT INFLUENCING CULTURE
When there is money to be made, the wealthy investor invests in it, the investment, one way or the other results in the hiring of poor/wealth seeking workers. If the investment pays off, everyone prospers, even a little bit. The workers get paid, the investor gets richer. People get richer and begin to buy more luxuries. Luxuries may range from a salted food to a silk dress but the point is, people want more good things, entertainment, food, dressing, houses whatever. Industries for this are in demand. People produce these things, and in order to remain competitive, people produce new and more unique things.

For example, Mozart became famous because he was child prodigy, families with the money to buy tickets demand for him, courts invite him to play for pay. Mozart was in an environment where money spurs people to spur him to create grander displays of his musical genius. In the 1700's to 1850's the rich or those who got rich through the power of money hired bands of musicians to personally play for them. Beethoven was one such man, playing for the Elector of Cologne. He is to later rise, from his post to become a brilliant composer.

Now, there was rich people in the past and this would work then too. But it was only in the 1700's when the inflow of money towards the poorer people begin to increase in large amounts. As the industrial revolution came on, more and more people were able to gain wealth, which in turn spurred the production of the cultural entertainment.

Sure there were those people who contributed to culture not for money. But they are small compared to those who worked for money. I doubt Dickens wrote only for the sole joy of writing. The money itself itself must be at least a small motivation to write.

Lastly, other aspects of culture such as Tea-drinking, tobacco-smoking, silk wearing are quite obviously the products of money.

Capitalism is perhaps the greatest contributors to Modern Western Culture.

Interesting post arronax, perhaps we should add Marx and Smith to the list of influential members?

Could you please give me some names of Spanish philosophers? I am about to give the Wikipedia servers a work-out.

Francisco Suarez is the big one. Domingo Banez and Luis de Molina are obviously important too, and so is Bartholomew de Medina. These are just the ones I can think of off-hand now but I'm sure if you look into them you'll find more.

What do you have in mind when it comes to invention? I think that would belong in a Science category. Newton and Turing are the first two to come to my mind.

Yes certainly. Certain British Inventions have caused real sea-changes in western culture. I'd point to things like the World Wide Web, the computer, the typewriter, portable (and accurate) clocks, the television, the jet engine, the telephone, vaccinations, the toilet, the internal combustion engine, the steam engine, locomotion et al. I think all of those things can be said to border and define western culture. To whit, I'm currently browsing the world wide web on a computer whilst watching television and writing on something which resembles a typewriter very closely.

Interesting post arronax, perhaps we should add Marx and Smith to the list of influential members?

Smith yes, but Marx, Im not quite sure. His ideas was to result in a Soviet culture that produce uh... many rather witty jokes.

Yes certainly. Certain British Inventions have caused real sea-changes in western culture. I'd point to things like the World Wide Web, the computer, the typewriter, portable (and accurate) clocks, the television, the telephone, vaccinations, the toilet, the internal combustion engine, the steam engine, locomotion et al. I think all of those things can be said to border and define western culture. To whit, I'm currently browsing the world wide web on a computer whilst watching television and writing on something which resembles a typewriter very closely.

The invention of faster transports, such as planes have indeed increase the spread of modern Western Culture and itself causes many sub-cultures. For example, due to a lack of general culture in Singapore, the Singapore Girl from Singapore airlines becomes a cultural symbol of Singapore, which is while sad, proves that science, technology just spring board various cultures

Surely you've heard of Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel, or George Bizet

Indeed.

Godwynn, do you not know (and appreciate) Bizet's Carmen? Shame on you.:mischief:

On Spanish philosophers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_philosophers

Certainly, in addition to Plotinus' mention of Francisco Suarez, Ibn al-Kattani, Averroes and Ortega y Gasset can't be missed.

Smith yes, but Marx, Im not quite sure. His ideas was to result in a Soviet culture that produce uh... many rather witty jokes.

That was Lenin, not Marx. (In real life Marx was a social-democrat; he was a member of the SPD).

Francisco Suarez is the big one. Domingo Banez and Luis de Molina are obviously important too, and so is Bartholomew de Medina. These are just the ones I can think of off-hand now but I'm sure if you look into them you'll find more.

Don't forget Ortega y Gasset and Miguel de Unamuno, to name some more recent fellas.

When I think of contributers of modern western culture, I think of the enlightenment era thinkers such as Voltaire and John Locke and when I think of contributing nations I think mostly of France and Britain.

Everyone is either Greek or wants to be Greek. Much of modern Western culture actually originated there in antiquity, like that whole democracy thing. I know you wanted modern nations, but it's next to impossible to overlook Greece.

I personally think that Greece's influence is overstated. Sure Greece had (a form of) early democracy but I don't really see modern western representative governments as being descendant from that. I think pretty much all old-world western nations natively had some sort of very limited representative government and as the centuries rolled by they became more and more inclusive and all new-world governments are derivatives of the old-world ones.

It depends where you locate Western culture, of course (I've decided to consider Russia as a factor even though it probably isn't what you were thinking of when you refer to the modern West), but I'll consider America, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Russia as contenders. By category, without much justification, and of course arbitrarily and poncily, I award three points for 'most influential country', two points for two runners-up, and one point for honourable mentions.

Philosophy: I give 3 to Germany for Martin Luther, the Kant-Hegel conversation, romanticism, and Nietzsche. 2 to Britain for the social contract, empiricism and the analytic tradition. 2 to Italy for Aquinas and Macchiavelli. 1 to France for Descartes and Rousseau. 1 to Spain for Loyola.

Mathematics: I'm on much shakier ground here, and I ascribe it less importance as a category, so I'll just award 1 each to Britain, Germany, and America.

Science: 3 to Britain for empiricism and the Industrial Revolution, 2 to Italy for the Renaissance, 2 to America for the nuclear/computer age, and 1 to Russia for the same.

Art: 3 to Italy for inventing art as we understand it, 2 to France for Norman cathedrals, the architecture of absolutism, Impressionism, and brutalism; 2 to Spain for Goya and Picasso, and 1 to America because of New York.

Literature: 3 to Britain for Shakespeare and Jane Austen, 2 to Russia for modernism, 2 to America for T.S. Eliot, beat poetry, and the contemporary novel; 1 to Spain for its indirect contribution to postmodernism through Latin America; 1 to Germany for romanticism.

Music: 3 to Germany, no question, for Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, and Mendelssohn; 2 to Russia for Stravinsky and Rimsky-Korsakoff (and Shostakovich, I should have said), 2 to America for jazz and blues; 1 to Italy for opera.

The highly scientific tally:
America 8
Britain 9
France 3
Germany 8
Italy 8
Russia 5
Spain 4

I disqualify America from consideration because I've most likely exaggerated its importance due to present dominance; and my conclusion is that the answer would be Britain and either Italy or Germany, depending on what you value and how you look at the problem.

All things considered, I'd clearly vote for Italy and/or Germany. If we include the Roman Empire as part of the Italian group, then Italy wins definitely and by far, for me.

Greece, France, Spain, Britain were also pretty damn important.

[Taliesin] Pretty good analysis, although I don't know why you've counted Luther as a philosopher, and France should definitely get a higher philosophy ranking, if only because most of the important philosophy done between Descartes and Rousseau was also French.

I considered making a separate category for religion, but couldn't think of anybody except Luther who would be worth including purely for religious influence, so I included him in philosophy. I guess maybe I should refer to the category more loosely as 'thought', though.

I suppose I didn't give France enough credit for Descartes, so raise them to a 2 and a 4 overall.

(If I wanted to be cheeky, I could give Switzerland 2 for Calvin, Rousseau, and the pike-and-musket infantry formation, and dethrone Britain by considering Scotland independently. I think that would leave Italy at the top of the pile.)

Science: 3 to Britain for empiricism and the Industrial Revolution
Empiricim fair enough, but what the dickens does the Ind Rev have to do with science?:scan:

You might as well give France a point or two for rationalism in this category too.:)

Art: 3 to Italy for inventing art as we understand it, 2 to France for Norman cathedrals, the architecture of absolutism, Impressionism, and brutalism; 2 to Spain for Goya and Picasso, and 1 to America because of New York.

You are underestimating the French contributions to art. I would say
Monet, Cézanne, Degas, Renoir, Gauguin, Manet, Seurat, Matisse, Toulouse-Lautrec, Delacroix, David, Poussin, Watteau, Caillebotte, Rodin, Braque, Duchamp to name just a few warrant a 3. Not to mention Picasso and Van Gogh, who despite not being French spent the majority of their careers in Paris.
With no disrespect to the Italian Renaissance it is my opionion that France wins in the visual arts category. Also 2 points to the Netherlands for Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Vermeer, and Brueghel.

All things considered, I'd clearly vote for Italy and/or Germany. If we include the Roman Empire as part of the Italian group, then Italy wins definitely and by far, for me.

Greece, France, Spain, Britain were also pretty damn important.

I'd say that Western culture was formed long before there was any Germany, Spain, Greece or France ;)

Fair enough quibbles, though I'm still comfortable ranking Italy above France: for the development of perspective and transmission of classical achievements alone, I think Italy registers in a higher class of importance, personal preference aside. I guess you could give the Netherlands two points, one for Rembrandt's self-portraits and one for banking (as noted somewhere previously).

Verbose-- I threw science and tech together, as with the Luther anomaly Plotinus pointed out. And I already gave France an extra point for Descartes, what more do you want? ;)

EDIT Although I considered adding a French point for positivism, and I did credit Britain twice for empiricism, so you can have your way. 5 for France. :p

I'd detract a point from France though, because, well, they're French.

Does anyone else find the idea of a points system for culture ridiculous?

I'd detract a point from France though, because, well, they're French.
You mean in addition to the extra-points "les Anglosaxons" in their typically self-congratulatory fashion always award themselves?:p

But seriously (:lol:), a couple to the French for their city-building skills. Anything the Anglos have come up with is butt-uggly by comparison, possibly vibrant and interesting at their best, but still butt-ugly.;)
Does anyone else find the idea of a points system for culture ridiculous?
Yes.

Fair enough quibbles, though I'm still comfortable ranking Italy above France: for the development of perspective and transmission of classical achievements alone, I think Italy registers in a higher class of importance, personal preference aside. I guess you could give the Netherlands two points, one for Rembrandt's self-portraits and one for banking (as noted somewhere previously).

Verbose-- I threw science and tech together, as with the Luther anomaly Plotinus pointed out. And I already gave France an extra point for Descartes, what more do you want? ;)

EDIT Although I considered adding a French point for positivism, and I did credit Britain twice for empiricism, so you can have your way. 5 for France. :p
I'm happy with the Italians ahead of the French for sure.:goodjob:

This just leaves us with the perennial problem of "Anglo Big Head Syndrome".;)

You mean in addition to the extra-points "les Anglosaxons" in their typically self-congratulatory fashion always award themselves?:p

But seriously (:lol:), a couple to the French for their city-building skills. Anything the Anglos have come up with is butt-uggly by comparison, possibly vibrant and interesting at their best, but still butt-ugly.;)

Yes.
Pff, you get to take points off us when your own countries earn the moniker "Great." it's not like we named ourselves that. And look where the centre of the world is on a map. Britain. What system of timekeeping is in use worldwide? Greenwich Mean Time. Greenwich is in "Great" Britain. We're so awesome. Anglo-Saxons ftw.

Does anyone else find the idea of a points system for culture ridiculous?
Yes, but also brilliant enough that we Anglo-Saxons deserve another point for having come up with it. :smug:

Yes, but also brilliant enough that we Anglo-Saxons deserve another point for having come up with it. :smug:
:lol: :goodjob:
Let's give ourselves another one for also pointing out its flaws.

Ashkenazi Jews

I'd say that Western culture was formed long before there was any Germany, Spain, Greece or France ;)

Or Italy, keep in mind it was unified quite late too... I don't mean the modern nation-states but the zones influenced by their culture, language, ideas, personalities, etc.

Philosophy
Mathematics
Science
Art
Literature
Music

I would say that Germans dominate modern philosophy (Leibniz, Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Marx, Nietzsche), though post-Aristotelian philosophy began in France with Descartes.

Math and science definitely goes to Britain. They gave us modern physics (Newton), biology (Darwin), and the majority of the inventions from the industrial revolution.

Art I would give to Italy, though I'm not an expert on 20th century art.

Literature... that's a tough one. I'm leaning towards Britain because of Shakespeare, but I'm going to pass on this.

Music; depends. Austro-Germans dominate classical music, but the British gave us so much 20th century rock, especially the Beatles, the Who, the Clash, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, and so on.

But most of what those British bands were playing was based on music that was originally American. In my view, modern music is one cultural area where America absolutely dominates and everyone else is just tagging along. Blues, jazz, and rock and roll - what other country can equal that? Let's just not mention country and western.

Let's just not mention country and western.
Tastes are subjective...http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/rolleye0012.gif

But most of what those British bands were playing was based on music that was originally American. In my view, modern music is one cultural area where America absolutely dominates and everyone else is just tagging along. Blues, jazz, and rock and roll - what other country can equal that? Let's just not mention country and western.

Just a small correction - you probably mean modern popular music. :)

Although my favorite kinds of music are not among those you mentioned (well, jazz can be amazing though), I see what you mean.

But most of what those British bands were playing was based on music that was originally American. In my view, modern music is one cultural area where America absolutely dominates and everyone else is just tagging along. Blues, jazz, and rock and roll - what other country can equal that? Let's just not mention country and western.

This is only if you view all 'Rock and Roll' as a single genre. I.e, you deny that its offshoots (Punk, Metal) are original on their own grounds. Or if you view further refinement of a musical form (tagging along?) as artistically unmeritorious.

I got the idea from Phlegmak here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7880090&postcount=131).

At first I didn't believe it, thinking it was the French and/or Italians. After some thought I came up with these categories:

Philosophy- Greece
Mathematics- Greece
Science- Greece, England, Germany, Russia, France
Art- France
Literature- Greece
Music- Germany

I am sure there are more, but those are just off of the top of my head. Sure the Italians had the Art category covered, but where is their contribution to Philosophy? The French surely had Literature, but I cannot think of a single French composer. While the Germans may not win every category, they are strong competitors in each.

This thread is not meant to glorify a single nation, but to provide a channel for a rational and thoughtful discussion on the contributors to Modern Western Culture. Please, feel free to discuss more categories than the six I have listed (after five minutes of thinking) and fill in major individual contributors.

As always, thanks ahead of time.

Greece wins :p.

Greece wins :p.
In the end, we always do. :D

Greece wins :p.

In modern Western Culture?

Whoops. Sorry.

Philosophy- France
Mathematics- Germany
Science- England
Art- France
Literature- France
Music- Germany

France wins 3-2-1.

In modern Western Culture?

Indeed.

Philosophy might not have been such a hit if those ancient Greeks hadn't invented it in the first place. (The rest of the ancient world remained stuck in theology; even the exception of Buddha got reverted right back to religion and confucianism - which is also close to a religion - never covered the same range of topic as ancient Greek philosophy.) Without their Greek precursors Arab philosophy might also never have flourished. Furthermore, without breaking free from religion, science as such might never have developed. So yeah, the Greeks win - by a mile. (And I haven't even mentioned poetry yet.)

This is only if you view all 'Rock and Roll' as a single genre. I.e, you deny that its offshoots (Punk, Metal) are original on their own grounds. Or if you view further refinement of a musical form (tagging along?) as artistically unmeritorious.

Punk, metal etc were really offshoots of rock, which itself was influenced by genres other than rock and roll proper (such as Chicago blues). But of course I would regard these things as distinct genres - what I said before doesn't commit me to the view that they all form a single genre. And of course they have artistic merit. But I don't think they represent such great originality and importance. Just as one might say that (say) German philosophy is an important and major tradition, but still represents less of a contribution than Greek philosophy, which paved the way for it.

Philosophy: I give 3 to Germany for Martin Luther, the Kant-Hegel conversation, romanticism, and Nietzsche. 2 to Britain for the social contract, empiricism and the analytic tradition. 2 to Italy for Aquinas and Macchiavelli. 1 to France for Descartes and Rousseau. 1 to Spain for Loyola.

Forgot many.. Sartre, Tocqueville, Montesquieu, Voltaire...
French and Germany 3 here. Britain 2.5.


Mathematics: I'm on much shakier ground here, and I ascribe it less importance as a category, so I'll just award 1 each to Britain, Germany, and America.

Pascal, Descartes, Fermat, Fourier...
Germany is first without contest, but I don't see how you can give 1 to America, and 0to France..


Science: 3 to Britain for empiricism and the Industrial Revolution, 2 to Italy for the Renaissance, 2 to America for the nuclear/computer age, and 1 to Russia for the same.

Pasteur, Curie, Cugnot, Buffon... You cannot give 0 to France. We are at least on par with Italy.


Literature: 3 to Britain for Shakespeare and Jane Austen, 2 to Russia for modernism, 2 to America for T.S. Eliot, beat poetry, and the contemporary novel; 1 to Spain for its indirect contribution to postmodernism through Latin America; 1 to Germany for romanticism.

And 0 to France?? :lol:

BTW, if you look at number of Nobel price:

USA: 309
UK: 113
Germany: 102
France : 57

And some other considerations:
- Civil law vs Common law:: France wins by a fair margin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/LegalSystemsOfTheWorldMap.png/800px-LegalSystemsOfTheWorldMap.png

- Metric system : no comment...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Metric_system_adoption_map.svg/800px-Metric_system_adoption_map.svg.png

So, I thin the western word has been mostly influenced by a mix of French, German and British.