SGOTM 09 - Misfits [Archive] - Page 4 - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 11:31 AM

I just think we can run Enviro with NP in JH, and then use Biology-boosted farms and Rep/Caste specialists in other cities to get at least equivalent results, and quite possibly better results.

Downside of Bio-farms + Scientists is
1) 6 beakers of the Scientist vs 1 hammer/7 commerce of a Town...
2) Happy, work the farm 1 pop, specialist 2nd pop. We would need (much) more happy to be able to work equivalent # of scientists.

Upside:
Loads of GPP = More GS... But their use is somewhat limited beyond 3/4 maybe bulbable towards Fission/Computers and their GPP cost go WAY up fast! thus quickly deminishing results.

If we do go with Specialists, Pacifism and Confu IMHO is a MUST to max out them GPP.

And having Opis taken early would be helpful to us in several ways.
But no need to have Opis taken before either or...
1) 20 turns from now to stop CiB from starving.
Alternative? Build a worker in CiB to stop it from starving, While building workers/settlers cities dont starve, I think...

2) Dur K. comes out of revolt.
Dur K. will be under severe presure from Opis with that HUGE (bombed) culture. Removing the culture will allow Dur K. to work the tiles and NOT starve...
Also allows any workers, once borders popped, to start improving the tiles safely like we want them... Hopefully using some (cheap) mace/xbow/Catapult to pillage any improvement we dont want before Dur K. -or any captured- comes out of revolt.
Netting us some (usefull) gold before we build the right improvements.

I am concerned about leaving Taj all the way to the "danger limit" -- maybe do only 5 paras from JH and then the Taj?
Well no risk no gain... Anything over the 4 turns he needs to research Nationalism is a risk... we risk him popping a (low odds) GE and popping Taj that way so to be 100% save we need to start building Taj NOW.
Each turn he doesnt get a GP, next turn the risk is slightly higher of him popping a GP and possibly a low odds GE.
As of turn say 9/10 from now, we run the risk of HC chopping a forest and having big overflow from his previous build, possibly whipping Cuzco HARD to finish it...

Both are unlikely and to 16 seems save, without whipping/chopping or him picking up Marble someplace... Yet each turn he has Nationalism and we dont finish Taj is a turn at risk!

If we do not get some value from Radio, then taking it with Lib was a mistake.
Well non-building Eifel for a longer time is value allready... At some point we want to build Eifel in JH, after finishing RnR... Building Eifel to within 1 turn of completion in JH then starting RnR in JH to finish eifel the turn after.... for instant +2 happy.
Meanwhile stocking gold in the non-build of Eifel elsewhere should get us a looooong way to space at 100%

Beeline Democracy
1602 Printing Press
2804 Democracy
Total 4406 beakers / 120% for research bonus = 3671 beakers
157 beakers per turn from SoL at 20 cities
1602 / 120% = 1335 / 157 = 8.5 (9) turns.

we could also instead of Research PP > Demo, go all out to Assembly Line, hoping for HC to come up with PP in the mean time.
If he comes up with it within 9 turns we just about even out on the beakers lost from SoL but get Levee(s)/Factory(s) up faster.
As we will not have 20 cities for a while yet, maybe even 10/11/12 turns before we need it to break even -on beakers-
Ofcourse GPP are lost... at what price?

Just one more turnthing
Perhaps we should send along a settler with the GM, settle a good city near HC and gift it to HC (liberating it) for +Diplo
Possibly sending him to Friendly sooner? Ofcourse the cost is 65 hammers... so may not be worth the trouble.
In particular if HC isnt far from friendly anyway, 12 turns to get the GM to HC... = 12 turns to get the Settler to HC.
need say 4 turns travel more to get to a solid spot, assuming limited/no barbs... Total of 16 turns, with lots of resource trades/gifts we should reach +2 diplo = Friendly by then?

Plans ahead
As I see them as a result of the ongoing discussion
1) Dont settle any new cities, they take to long to pay off
2) Research Economics > Biology > Coorporation > Democracy, assuming we can trade for Engineering from HC
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
4) Pick up all the lose gold out there selling techs (barring WK)
4.1) cancel fish deal with Shaka, gift Currency resell fish for more GPT
4.2) Pick up all the GPT out there (barring WK)
5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
6) Any other cities but Sleeps and JH should be building +Research +Commerce buildings while LM builds missionaries.
7) Build to a total of 5/6/7 Troopers while sitting out the 'no war period' with Hammi and GO GO GO, = dead hammy

Is the Taj non-build in IT a smart thing?
Building it for 4 turns delays Lab > Airport > Harbor all 4 turns.
4 turns delay of the lab 4 * 10 = 40 beakers
4 turns on the Harbor 4 * 6 = 24 beakers
4 turns on the Airport 4 * 8 = 28 beakers
Total beaker loss: 40 + 24 + 28 = 92 beakers
To gain 4 * 30 - 4 * 16 = 120 - 64 = 56 gold

Lose 92 beakers to gain 56 gold, doesnt seem like a good tradeoff to me :( Forget about the Taj non-build in IT.
The build queue Lab > Harbor > Airport should take 11 + 3 + 11 = 25, with some added hammers from growing and/or overflow 24 turns. "Well" inside the 27 turn limit of the GM gold and IT is all done, baring ofcourse the possiblity of a Customs house and Factory/Coal plant.
Factory and Coal plant though are totaly optional, highly desired ofcourse, but optional for now and IT can spend time building gold to support our empire. Need to make some calculations to figure out if a Customs house and/or Factory and/or Coal Plant is/are worth building or not...

Then again, we can also adopt US just before building the SS-parts, and keep Rep while teching towards them, instead of adopting it right after our cotages turn to towns ...
Wow all those hammers lost! Hammers can be used to build gold or at worse research or research buildings.
Wasting all those hammers doesnt seem like a good plan to me?? Also losing out on the Buro bonus to addopt Free Speech but not have our capitol be Cottaged...
Still wouldnt be worse (preserve + enviro + Rep-Scientist) than a Town....

Yet half and half... Dont really see this as an option.

All is correct, but you forgot our Colossus-gold we will get someday; still, we need to find more gold
Sorry Chris but Hammy completed Colossus some turns ago during my turnset on turn 117, we already cashed the Colossus builds for 268 gold.

Even worse, Fur (Combustion) and Whale (Plastics) will go obsolete someday,
Which is why I didnt count them. I am assuming on picking up an other Market resource for the 2 happy with a market, the same way I am hoping we can trade some gold/gem/silver from someone for the 2 happy at the forge. If we can pick up 2 forge resources, the market wouldnt be needed.
But yes we will lose the 1 happy of the fur as well as the trades and the happy from the not yet Netted Whales
This is why.... if we dont need the whale for Whaling town OR for the (temp) happy I would rather not "waste" the 20 hammers on a workboat.
If we DO need it offcourse build it, if we dont we save ourselves 20 gold/40 beakers.

Perhaps? Joao will be kind enough to send Taoist missionaries to ALL our cities? Adding a happy to each with FR and a possible temple too.

Soon we will be in the building the spaceship phase of the game, where beakers / gold will not matter as much.
"Soon" how soon is Soon??
By my approximation we are going to need atleast 80 turns from "here and now" to the last spaceship tech... Untill we have that last tech surely (every) gold/beakers counts!
I agree it is a bulk load of worker turns we have to invest to transpose everything to cottages.
I agree we need hammers to build the (last and/or expensive) parts
I agree cottage in JH vs NP in JH is less strong...
I agree all that... But I so strongly disagree about Cottages all over beeing worse than staying in Enviromentalism and NP in JH. Only 6 US/FS towns offset (by my calculations) the loss of NP in JH.
With every 1 extra cottage elsewhere (and we can run 30+ easy I think, even without Joao land) will be in favour of US/FS.
Working a preserve at 1 hammer/2 commerce how is that better than a US/FS town at 1 hammer/7 commerce??

Windmills ultimatly are and remain stopgaps, halfway measures... Nice at everything and surely early on strong but ultimately great for nothing.
+1 food vs +2 on a farm (OK not possible on a hill... but still)
+1 hammer vs +3 on a railroaded mine
+4 commerce vs +7 of a FS town. (No cottages on Plains hills offcourse)

Preserves have been basicaly OK, because they add happyness... Due to the +1 happy you allow a second preserve to be worked.
So eventhough the preserve itself is "only" 1 hammer, 2 commerce, you basicaly allow infinate (20) hammers/ (40) commerce on a all grass forest land. This is what they are strong at with Enviromentalism WHILE tows are also only worth 4 commerce / 0 hammers, beeing beat by the 2 hammer/4 commerce preserves.
We are going into the stage where we have the resources to get the happy, replacing the Preserve by either MP or Resource + Building.
Trading for 1 gold resource will allow for 2 happy = 2 preserves down = +10 commerce in the city.

At 1100+ beakers per turn ON AVERAGE we have 80-ish turns left, we are at turn 118 which means we are just at 60% of the game... 60%! How soon is soon?
And how soon do we need to start building parts -for real- to get them finished JIT for them to coincide with the final part beeing done?

Even if we (ultimatly) finish at turn 180, we are only at 65% of the game... We still have a long way to go before we can start thinking about optimizing cities for Spaceparts.
If we dont get Emancipation for ~12 turns we still have 60 left, of which 40 will all be towns = 40 turns no hammers from US... Atleast 40 or so towns not getting hammers = 40 * 40 = 1600 hammers lost.
Even if they dont all grow to Towns in the same turn lets say we lose out on ~1000 hammers because we are not running US... That is a bucket load of hammers/gold/beakers.

Those are my gut feelings.
I suggest you put your gut feelings into figures and show me how 'no cottaging' is better than cottaging.
How running Rep + Enviro for 1 hammer/2 commerce preserves (and one happy) will beat out 1 hammer/7 commerce towns? Even if we lose 1 happy, 2 hammers/4 commerce from 2 preserves is easily beat out by a 1 hammer/7 commerce town??
How does your gut feeling make up for 120 beakers per turn we are not getting from the 30 towns vs the preserves??
How will the 1 food and 4 commerce (6 beaker) from the windmill send us to space faster than a 7 commerce (10.5 beaker) town??

I am sorry kind sir, but guts... show me some hard figures/facts how Rep/Buro/CoL/Enviro/FR (RBCEF) will beat US/FS/Eman/SP/FR (UFESF), I will believe the figures but not your guts.
Guts are good at soft mushy stuff, less good for cold hard facts... Or alternatively show me the error in my figures!?

My figures seem to tell me that even if the last of 40 towns goes to town 8 turns before the last beaker on the last tech is done... UFESF beats out RBCEF

We should be able to take down several of Hammi's cities during my turnset.
This has nothing to do with your beeing good or bad at war... Troopers vs LBs should be pretty easy going...

Given your excelling at war, how about your input on the order that cities should fall and why?
Dur K. > Babylon and then what? and why?

haphazard1

May 05, 2009, 11:34 AM

Sorry to hear of your troubles, Mastiff. Take care of yourself and your family. We will still be around once things are better again.

JH, that would put you UP for the next turnset, preparing our army and (depending on how many turns you play) launching the assault on Hammi.

Sorry for the lack of comments the last day or so; I will try to respond to Kale's well-put points when I can. My company sprung a last-minute training assignment on me, so I am spending 8+ hours a day in training and then trying to keep up with my normal duties as well. :( Things are more than a bit busy here right now. :lol:

I like the proposed tech path as calculated by Kale -- very nice work.

On the trade route gold, I think the difference is that the value of the trade route to our capital must have an integer value and gets rounded down. So the 8.96 becomes just 8. :cry: Growing JH one more pop to get a 2.0 base instead of 1.9 might be worthwhile, pushing the TR value above 9.0 for another 134 gold.

Note that I am not certain if the 1.9 factor is coming from JH being size 19 or Cuzco being size 19 -- if it is Cuzco, then we obviously can not control that. And have to hope HC does not decide to whip something large before our merchant gets there.

I am very concerned about the happiness impact of cottaging our preserves. Chris is correct that fur and whale will both obsolete, and with markets that is 4 happy faces lost. :( Getting enough happiness to keep JH fully functional is very important. Our other cities are not as large, at least right now, but most will continue growing especially once we finish Biology.

On Kale's queue of buildings, I think we have to include a courthouse. Remember our calcs for the filler cities, and how large maintenance gets for a size 10 city without a courthouse.

State Property...I am not convinced it is that valuable, at least for controlling costs. For a mass workshop hammers push on the SS parts, we may want it. But distance maintenance should not be a big issue, especially if we build FP for Babylon (and something for Joao if we conquer him) and have courthouses. Low vs Medium for Enviro adds a bit more savings. But I still think we may be better off with Enviro and farms/Rep specialists everywhere. Happiness problems would be a non-issue in most cities (SdL, a few others do not have forests) due to preserves, lots of health for once we industrialize == many fewer hammers into odeons, temples, aquaducts, hospitals == more gold (or whatever else we need). Huge savings in worker turns, which can be spent on farms, roads/rails, and whatever else we need. Biology-boosted farms mean lots of food for fast growth, lots of Rep specialists under Caste. (We would lose a few happiness back to Emancipation.) A Caste/Rep scientist produces 6 beakers + whatever bonus the city has -- not bad compared to 7 commerce from a town, and even without a granary grows a lot faster than 23 turns.

If I find time (hah!) I will take a look at potential farming boosts per city, and how many additional specialists we might be able to run if we keep preserves and farm available flatland.

JerichoHill

May 05, 2009, 11:58 AM

I may have to take a skip. My 16 year old ran away last night, and I have to be dealing with that. Even if resolves soon, my head is out of the game at the moment... no way I could concentrate enough to play well. Sorry guys.

MF

I am very sorry for you and your family. This last bit of time has not been nice to the misfits.

haphazard1

May 05, 2009, 11:59 AM

I will recheck my numbers, posted previously. But I have to strongly disagree that 4 non-JH towns make up for losing Enviro and cottaging in JH.

I assume that keeping Enviro means NP in JH; moving NP to CiB only makes sense if the JH preserves will no longer exist. So each forest preserve under Bur and Enviro is producing 1.5H, 3C, and a specialist for (presumably) 6 beakers. Add the +250% beakers bonus and that is 31.5 bpt per preserve.

A non-Bur, FS, US town in place of that preserve will produce 1H, 7C. With +250% that is 24.5 bpt, a loss of 7 bpt and 0.5 hpt (and happiness and health, of course). Plus 23 turns of growing time during which we pile up a lot of lost beakers and hammers.

Each non-JH town will produce 5C more than a preserve, or somewhere from 6.5 to 10 bpt more than a preserve depending on local beaker bonus.

With JH having 12 preserves, we need at least 10 non-JH towns just to equal the per turn loss. Given the loss of all the beakers and hammers during the 23 growing turns at JH, we need a bunch more non-JH towns to earn back that deficit. Then we need still more non-JH towns to actually make a profit.

NP in CiB will earn some beakers back. But with a much lower beaker bonus, only four scientist slots once obs/lab built, and no Rep bonus (if running US for town hammers), it does not actually gain back very much: 4 sci at 3 bpt * +100% = 24 bpt. OK, you need 2.5 - 3 fewer non-JH cottages because of NP in CiB.

I will recheck my earlier calcs, but I think it was clear that we need at least 30 non-JH towns to have any chance of an overall gain. And with not all towns reaching full size exactly as we switch to US, FS, and out of Bur, it is probably more like 35 or 40 to really do better than sticking with Enviro.

And none of this includes happiness (which will have to be made up for by spending hammers on buildings), health (ditto), and worker turns required (hard to value these exactly, but they do have value).

Anyway, that's my thoughts (and numbers!) on it. My lunch break is ending -- back to the slides and lecture. :lol:

JerichoHill

May 05, 2009, 12:27 PM

Okay, it seems like the best idea is to move us into position to Attack Hammi. That will be where my turnset concludes, unless I feel like capturing a city

Cities:
SdL - Finish Moaui > Barracks > Paratroops
CiB - ?
LM - Missionairy
IT - Lab> WB Whales
JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops
BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge
GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)

Fearless - Finish farm > Farm 1SW
Thorrez - Finish farm > Farm 1N > Watermill 1N
DeLorean - Finish pigs > Roads and preserves for FH
namliaM - Finish windmill > Preserve
Jules Verne - MOve 2 SE, WM, SE, Road FP, WM TR
Emmett&Einy - Finish farm > Farm 2W
Dubya - Finish watermill > Preserve NNW of BT > Continue to work south to FH
AG - Pre Watermill, Road Tiles
Obama - Preserves around CiB
Biff - Move 1W and start road > Camp furs

Research:

Trades:

Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
HC - Gift him Copper

Ham & Joao - Compass for 40g each
HC - Has 10g. Not worth a trade IMO.
Try n get other gold, always

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army

NOTES:

1) Hire an Engineer in SdL next turn.

2) Finish Granary in Bear town and FH. Galleon in BT to stop galleys

3) Worker north of IT:
- Start roading that last fur, to be followed by a camp
- Chop them western forests
- Cottage them grass

My suggestion is to move 1W, start road, then camp the other furs. IT will pop borders next turn. Useful for trade.

4) Leave no gold untapped in trade screen

5) Move the second zeppelin up north down to whack the barbs.

6) Stop the worker south of LM. That's AG... see my plan.

7) Running Merchants - 2 in FH after Happy Cap hit.

Team needs to decide
1) Do we cottage and lose all those worker turns? And get hit with Happy issues, DURING a war? Makes no sense to me.

2) Approve research path Economics > Biology > Corp > Demo

Kale To Do List
2) Research Economics > Biology > Coorporation > Democracy, assuming we can trade for Engineering from HC
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
4) Pick up all the lose gold out there selling techs (barring WK)
4.1) cancel fish deal with Shaka, gift Currency resell fish for more GPT
4.2) Pick up all the GPT out there (barring WK)
5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
6) Any other cities but Sleeps and JH should be building +Research +Commerce buildings while LM builds missionaries.

PS: I am against Cottaging at this time because I share Hap's concern about Happiness

Plan to play Friday.

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 12:53 PM

I am very concerned about the happiness impact of cottaging our preserves. Chris is correct that fur and whale will both obsolete, and with markets that is 4 happy faces lost. :( Getting enough happiness to keep JH fully functional is very important. Our other cities are not as large, at least right now, but most will continue growing especially once we finish Biology.
1) We dont even have a market in JH
2) Only have fur, no whales yet....
3) Who cares with Calander resources becoming available from the AI?

Also IF for some reason JH cannot fill all the cottages to be worked, LM can make them grow while we get more happies, one way or another...

On Kale's queue of buildings, I think we have to include a courthouse. Remember our calcs for the filler cities, and how large maintenance gets for a size 10 city without a courthouse.
Maybe courthouse too, but not a priority as long as we can pay for the cities and sticking on 100% reseach. While we are on 100% research +commerce and +research is most important... Then Courthouse/Factory etc impoving cities yet further/reducing cost/ increasing gold is a nice added value.

Happiness problems would be a non-issue in most cities (SdL, a few others do not have forests) due to preserves, lots of health for once we industrialize == many fewer hammers into odeons, temples, aquaducts, hospitals == more gold (or whatever else we need). Huge savings in worker turns, which can be spent on farms, roads/rails, and whatever else we need. Biology-boosted farms mean lots of food for fast growth, lots of Rep specialists under Caste. (We would lose a few happiness back to Emancipation.) A Caste/Rep scientist produces 6 beakers + whatever bonus the city has -- not bad compared to 7 commerce from a town, and even without a granary grows a lot faster than 23 turns.

You worry about health and Happy for chopping forests/preserves... Yet... You have no problem with building a farm to create 2 citizens to "work" 1 on the farm and 1 scientist. These 2 citizens are replaced by 1 town needing half the happy, half the health required... :crazyeye:

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 01:15 PM

I assume that keeping Enviro means NP in JH; moving NP to CiB only makes sense if the JH preserves will no longer exist. So each forest preserve under Bur and Enviro is producing 1.5H, 3C, and a specialist for (presumably) 6 beakers. Add the +250% beakers bonus and that is 31.5 bpt per preserve.
Yes 31.5 bpt good

A non-Bur, FS, US town in place of that preserve will produce 1H, 7C. With +250% that is 24.5 bpt, a loss of 7 bpt and 0.5 hpt (and happiness and health, of course). Plus 23 turns of growing time during which we pile up a lot of lost beakers and hammers.
24.5 bpt at -7 bpt yes good...

Each non-JH town will produce 5C more than a preserve, or somewhere from 6.5 to 10 bpt more than a preserve depending on local beaker bonus.
6.25 to 10 actually

What you are failing to compensate is the NP specialists now in CiB.
These have 4 non-rep scientist = 12 beakers + 100% = 24
2 Engineers = 4 hammers = 4 gold = 8 beakers
2 Merchant = 6 gold = 12 beakers
44 beakers per turn

12 * -7 = -84 bpt + 44 from CiB's NP = -40 bpt

+ 4 windmills => Towns = 4 * + 3 bpt = 12 bpt + 250% = 42 bpt

-40 + 42 = +2 bpt ! on "move NP to CiB and cottage up JH, while running UFESF"

We dont even need the stinking cottages in any other cities to break even! What is wrong with this math??
OK maybe... we should exchange the hammers/gold from the NP specialists in CiB to beakers.

Still that leaves 20 less beakers leaving +2 - 20 = -18 bpt which could be as many as 3 non-JH towns... What am I doing wrong??

And none of this includes happiness (which will have to be made up for by spending hammers on buildings), health (ditto), and worker turns required (hard to value these exactly, but they do have value).

Worker turns sure ... something to consider... but how much work is there left to do? Maybe add a worker or two?

I dont understand... you are quite happy (in other cities) to farm up and run scientists instead of cottages = 2 x the citizens = 2x the health and happy required.

Lets see about happies in JH... In JH we have 3 happyness surplus, 1 from fur 1 from MP, both will disappear. Leaving 1 surplus.

+2 happy Odeon (33 hammers)
+1 Theatre (from dye we already have) (33 hammers)
+3 Hit Singles (we dont have yet) Odeon/Single/Broadcast tower
+2 Hit Musicals (we dont have yet) Musical/Broadcast tower
+1 Silk (without market)
+2 Gold/Gem/Silver (gems from Shaka or gold from Stalin)
+1 Sugar (from HC hopefully soon)
==
Without much doing or adding buildings we wouldnt otherwize build 12 happy with the 1 spare = 13.
12 happyness preserves to be droped leaving still 1 surplus... Not a lot, but surplus!

JerichoHill

May 05, 2009, 01:27 PM

And WW hitting bad b/c of Hammi's Zeus moment?

I mean, we are going to absolutely roll over Hammi, but it will take a few turns..

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 01:51 PM

Cities:
SdL - Finish Moaui > Barracks > Paratroops
OK thats a possibility.... where are we going to find gold though?? We want/need to cover some turns inbetween our current gold and the GM gold...

Also what about a galleon?

CiB - ?
The obs that is in queue?

LM - Missionairy
IT - Lab> WB Whales
IF we need the WB... IF...

JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops
BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge

Galleon to block Atlantis?? Perhaps wait for a Frigate?

GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)
What no build ideas for Two Rivers?

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)
Dont understand the comment about riversides??

Fearless - Finish farm > Farm 1SW
Thorrez - Finish farm > Farm 1N > Watermill 1N
I think we should make TR a production city exactly like SdL, mine the hills.

DeLorean - Finish pigs > Roads and preserves for FH
namliaM - Finish windmill > Preserve
Preserves, why? FH is going to be running Merchants => Slow growing, I would probably build a Windmill 1 west of the pigs, road it and 1 S of the pigs.
Then maybe worry about preserves (if needed)

GV still 5 under the cap but will hopefully shoot up... Preserve is still tentative though, I am totaly not convinced about the long term usefullness of Enviromentalism... Perhaps cottaging the Grass forest 1 north of GV would be better. We will -regardless of Enviro yes/no- cottage that anyway.

Jules Verne - MOve 2 SE, WM, SE, Road FP, WM TR Or mine TR???

Emmett&Einy - Finish farm > Farm 2W Be carefull to not have them near the border when the war starts.

Also I would split them up... Those farms are no where near as important as the farming project. Instead pre-farm maybe... To still allow forest to grow? and to not allow Hammi to pillage them should he get ideas?? Or move out towards the east first and farm there?

Also perhaps move them to SdL to "specialize" to production?
Or Move to JH for pre-WhatEvering?
Or Move to BT for Cottaging (regardless of whatever we do, BT should get cottages right?)
Or Move to GV for Cottaging (again this is regardless of the ongoing discussion I think?)

Dubya - Finish watermill > Preserve NNW of BT > Continue to work south to FH
Dubya?? = new worker??
Watermill ?? we cannot build no water mill near BT?? You mean preserve? Or Cottage?

AG - Pre Watermill, Road Tiles
Or pre-cottage ;)

Obama - Preserves around CiB
Well if we are going to stick NP in JH, no preserves needed here.... up for discussion still.
Biff - Move 1W and start road > Camp furs
Cool :cool: something to agree :)

Trades:

Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Cancel fish <> 1 GPT, gift sell Currency for 70g, renew fish for more GPT

Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
Get his 30 gold for Calander, to allow Stalin to connect his Silks and give one of them to us :lol:

HC - Gift him CopperWheat and Corn too

Ham & Joao - Compass for 40g each
Sell FUR to Hamm for his 5gpt
Nothing to sell Joao, but may not even be worth his 1 gpt.

7) Running Merchants - 2 in FH after Happy Cap hit.
As many as FH will hold...

Team needs to decide
1) Do we cottage and lose use all those worker turns? And get hit with Happy issues, DURING a war? Makes no sense to me.
We would be using not Losing... also we wouldnt finish a single cottage > wouldnt lose a single happy untill we addopt Emancipation (= Democracy = War should be as good as over anyway)

5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
HOW do we do this?? What are good suggestions to get gold to bridge the 5 turn gap between turn 7 (out of gold) and turn 12 (GM traderoute complete) ???

Suggestions??

Plan to play Friday.
I wouldnt play unless we can agree on what we are going forward with...

ChrisFromLux

May 05, 2009, 03:23 PM

ChrisFromLux

May 05, 2009, 03:31 PM

And for the rest of the posts ... that is a bit too much to read for tonight :D

That will have to wait til tomorrow morning (without the save again, but well :crazyeye:)

haphazard1

May 05, 2009, 07:26 PM

1) We dont even have a market in JH
2) Only have fur, no whales yet....
3) Who cares with Calander resources becoming available from the AI?

Also IF for some reason JH cannot fill all the cottages to be worked, LM can make them grow while we get more happies, one way or another...

I dislike relying on AI resources for happiness, in case war ever breaks out. And we need to get enough available. But it is probably possible.

Maybe courthouse too, but not a priority as long as we can pay for the cities and sticking on 100% reseach. While we are on 100% research +commerce and +research is most important... Then Courthouse/Factory etc impoving cities yet further/reducing cost/ increasing gold is a nice added value.

Since we can be pretty certain we will have to build gold (unless all our future GP turn out to be GM), courthouses become another means of building gold. You just get the payoff a bit later, but in more total gold over time. For any city with maintenance over about 8 gpt, I think a courthouse will turn out to be at least as good a deal as an airport.

You worry about health and Happy for chopping forests/preserves... Yet... You have no problem with building a farm to create 2 citizens to "work" 1 on the farm and 1 scientist. These 2 citizens are replaced by 1 town needing half the happy, half the health required... :crazyeye:

Because with Enviro (+6 health) and preserves (+1 happy, +0.4 health), there will not be significant happy/health issues even with more pop. It is true that some cities do not have (m)any forests to preserve, but they will need other sources of happy and health whatever we do.

Yes 31.5 bpt good

24.5 bpt at -7 bpt yes good...

6.25 to 10 actually

What you are failing to compensate is the NP specialists now in CiB.
These have 4 non-rep scientist = 12 beakers + 100% = 24
2 Engineers = 4 hammers = 4 gold = 8 beakers
2 Merchant = 6 gold = 12 beakers
44 beakers per turn

12 * -7 = -84 bpt + 44 from CiB's NP = -40 bpt

Will 1:2 still apply for gold, with the reduction in JH's total contribution to our beaker production? Our overall ratio may shift.

+ 4 windmills => Towns = 4 * + 3 bpt = 12 bpt + 250% = 42 bpt

Enviro windmills under Bur give 6C per turn, the town 7 -- so this is only 4 bpt + 250% for 14 bpt.

-40 + 42 = +2 bpt ! on "move NP to CiB and cottage up JH, while running UFESF"

We dont even need the stinking cottages in any other cities to break even! What is wrong with this math??

-40 + 14 = -26 bpt. So for +7.5 bpt (guessing at average bonus again, of course) per non-JH cottage, we need about 3.5 more.

OK maybe... we should exchange the hammers/gold from the NP specialists in CiB to beakers.

Still that leaves 20 less beakers leaving +2 - 20 = -18 bpt which could be as many as 3 non-JH towns... What am I doing wrong??

OK, so we have the original 4 non-JH, 3.5 more for the windmills thing, and then maybe these 3 more for the gold/beakers in CiB...there are my 10 non-JH towns to offset. :)

We also lose 4 food from the windmills. That is two specialists less, for 6 +250% or 21 bpt more. Add another 3 or so non-JH towns.

These 10 (or 13) non-JH towns are just to equal the per-turn output. During the 23 turns those 16 cottages take to grow at JH, a BIG deficit gets created, which is why a bunch more non-JH towns are needed to pay that deficit back before we finally pull ahead overall from the cottage plan.

I am certainly not arguing that we can not do better with cottages, as long as we build enough of them. I just think that the number we need is rather large...16 at JH and then at least 30 non-JH...if we are going to see total benefit. We could manage enough within our and Hammi's land if we cottage absolutely every tile possible. Adding Joao's lands (which actually have some cottages) and cottaging heavily in ours and Hammi's would be enough to gain signficantly.

Wait a minute.... (sudden realization)

This is really just a scheme to make conquering Joao look good, isn't it? :lol: :crazyeye: :lol:

Worker turns sure ... something to consider... but how much work is there left to do? Maybe add a worker or two?

We need more roads, and eventually rails. There is still a good bit to do around Sleeps, BT, GV, TR, and FH. Plus however much is needed in Hammi's lands, although we should be able to "find" :satan: some workers for those tasks.

I worry about timing the transition from Bur to FS, and from Rep to US. Depending on how many cottages we have fully grown, there could be some significant losses compared to my original numbers. I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed the growing cottages at JH would get full Bur benefit right to the last turn; not getting that could easily cost us hundreds of beakers. Not having the non-JH cottages fully grown to towns could also add hundreds more beakers lost. :( We need to pre-cottage massively at JH, and have lots of non-JH cottages ready to start growing (or already be growing) the turn we revolt to Emancipation.

I dont understand... you are quite happy (in other cities) to farm up and run scientists instead of cottages = 2 x the citizens = 2x the health and happy required.

As noted above -- Enviro + forest preserves == lots of health and happy.

Lets see about happies in JH... In JH we have 3 happyness surplus, 1 from fur 1 from MP, both will disappear. Leaving 1 surplus.

+2 happy Odeon (33 hammers)
+1 Theatre (from dye we already have) (33 hammers)
+3 Hit Singles (we dont have yet) Odeon/Single/Broadcast tower
+2 Hit Musicals (we dont have yet) Musical/Broadcast tower
+1 Silk (without market)
+2 Gold/Gem/Silver (gems from Shaka or gold from Stalin)
+1 Sugar (from HC hopefully soon)
==
Without much doing or adding buildings we wouldnt otherwize build 12 happy with the 1 spare = 13.
12 happyness preserves to be droped leaving still 1 surplus... Not a lot, but surplus!

That is a lot of hammers, unless we can get the AI to get busy and build Broadway and R&R for us. We can probably manage -- we have the fur and whale (we need that WB!) and maybe even a market for a while to bridge the gap until singles and musicals are available. Let's hope the AI get their plantations (and precious resource mining) built.

If we are going to cottage, then we need to go absolutely INSANE spamming cottages. Otherwise it will not pay off.

haphazard1

May 05, 2009, 08:07 PM

Okay, it seems like the best idea is to move us into position to Attack Hammi. That will be where my turnset concludes, unless I feel like capturing a city

Your call, JH. Six turns (the mandatory peace) is a fairly short turnset, but attacking will probably add minimum 2 turns and maybe 3 to get Dur-Kur to fall.

Cities:
SdL - Finish Moaui > Barracks > Paratroops

We need a galleon here to transport the Economics free GM to Cuzco. After Moai? Not sure we need paras from here -- maybe gold after the galleon? We have to find some from somewhere.

CiB - ?

Finish the obs, I think. Do we want a lab here now? Or maybe an additional missionary or two? If we are sending a galleon with the GM to Cuzco, maybe stick a missionary or two on board?

Wait, scratch that. Would get HC into the AP voting game. Although, it might induce him to start building Confu missionaries himself for AP boost, meaning more cash for our shrine.

LM - Missionairy

Do we want to consider a grocer here once we finish Guilds? Or maybe wait and then a bank -- bigger gold payoff per hammer invested?

IT - Lab> WB Whales

Definitely lab. I think we should build the WB -- we will need the happiness to resist WW, and later we can trade it if we do not need it. We will need something to trade for gold, sugar, silk, etc. from overseas. And maybe also for musicals or singles, if we do not find the hundreds of hammers to build Broadway or R&R.

JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops

Good to have one simple choice, isn't it? :lol:

BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge

Not sure on the galleon, since we need one in the west to reach Cuzco. It we do want one, maybe build it in IT after the lab? We need BT to finish some of this basic infra.

GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)

These look good. But where is TR?

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)

Which riversides? :confused: Is this for farms? Watermills? Other?

AG - Pre Watermill, Road Tiles

Road tiles, yes. Whatever we choose, I think the watermills are out. Pre-cottage once roads are done, I guess. Kale is persistent and is wearing me down! :lol:

Research:

Nothing listed, although I think we pretty much agreed on this one earlier.

Trades:

Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
HC - Gift him Copper

Get Currency to Shaka, cancel the current deal (if we can, not sure on the turn count there), then see what he has available. The extra TRs may give him more free cash, although it might now show up for 1 turn.

And I think we need to gift HC as many resources as we can, once we finish taking everyone else's available gpt. We want that second resources +diplo point ASAP. Along with the next fave civic, he should reach +9 -- so keep an eye on him each turn in case he becomes friendly.

Ham & Joao - Compass for 40g each
HC - Has 10g. Not worth a trade IMO.
Try n get other gold, always

I would not trade Compass to Hammi. Instead, gift him Electricity this turn, and see if he will reach Friendly. If he does, we can trade for Theo + whatever gold he has, and then try the following turn to get Divine Right.

Maybe trade some small stuff to Shaka and Stalin as well, for any cash they have and to encourage them to build useful things?

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army

Do we want to launch from SdL or from Sleepy? Not sure it makes a difference.

3) Worker north of IT:
- Start roading that last fur, to be followed by a camp
- Chop them western forests
- Cottage them grass

Chop the forests, yes. Not sure on the cottages -- we are not sure whether we will found that filler city. It will not get an SoL free specialist, but will eventually get another trade route from Corporation. May want to bring the worker back to help pre-cottage JH instead.

4) Leave no gold untapped in trade screen

I would grab all the non-WK gold per turn, certainly. I would not trade every time someone has 10 gold available, though; not unless we were going to trade (really give) something to them anyway. Try to grab slightly larger chunks of cash.

And keep an eye on HC for becoming friendly! We might get lucky and have that penalty fade, and suddenly be able to trade techs.

5) Move the second zeppelin up north down to whack the barbs.

Do we want another zep or two for the war with Hammi? CiB could produce one, maybe. Or IT?

Team needs to decide
1) Do we cottage and lose all those worker turns? And get hit with Happy issues, DURING a war? Makes no sense to me.

Worker turns are made to be expended. I would start pre-cottaging in JH, being very careful not to actually finish any yet. We have a while before we tech Democracy, and can use that time to prepare. Enviro for now, and for a while yet.

2) Approve research path Economics > Biology > Corp > Demo

Looks good to me. Hopefully Engineering becomes tradable very soon; if we are ridiculously lucky Printing Press would become available in time.

If we can get techs along the top of the tree (Drama, Music) I assume we grab them?

PS: I am against Cottaging at this time because I share Hap's concern about Happiness

Appreciate the support, JH, but I am starting to come around to Kale's point of view. :lol: It is going to take a ton of careful MM to make it work...and probably conquering Joao...but it should work. And anything that gets us to space faster is good.

Plan to play Friday.

Sounds good. We need to discuss and finalize things anyway.

Edit: OK, did not see Kale's latest before posting this. Lots of great minds thinking alike again. :lol:

On gold to bridge the gap:

- More merchants? We lose some beakers per turn, but keep the overall slider up longer. And if we get a GM, lots and lots more gold to keep the slider up.

- Build gold. Possible candidates are CiB, SdL, IT -- could amount to a decent number of coins.

- Conquest! We should start taking cities about T8 (Dur-Kur) and T12 (Babylon). A bit late to really help much, though.

- Trade resources for gpt, trade techs for small cash. Every bit helps.

- If still not enough, build more gold: LM, Sleeps. Leave JH to carry the military load.

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 11:04 PM

Since we can be pretty certain we will have to build gold (unless all our future GP turn out to be GM), courthouses become another means of building gold. You just get the payoff a bit later, but in more total gold over time. For any city with maintenance over about 8 gpt, I think a courthouse will turn out to be at least as good a deal as an airport.
Courthouse can be a nice addition, but #1 goal is beakers, beakers and more beakers...

Will 1:2 still apply for gold, with the reduction in JH's total contribution to our beaker production? Our overall ratio may shift.
Currently we make 296 gold into 660 beakers: 1:2.22
With more +research buildings going up, Obs/Lab this will only increase overall even with JH beeing the upside of the 2.22 could calculate an exact figure...

But even if we overall drop 1:2.22 to 1:1.5 and go from 720 beakers (total now at 100%) to 1720 beakers per turn, I dont care!

Enviro windmills under Bur give 6C per turn, the town 7 -- so this is only 4 bpt + 250% for 14 bpt.
Ah so it is :) good catch

-40 + 14 = -26 bpt. So for +7.5 bpt (guessing at average bonus again, of course) per non-JH cottage, we need about 3.5 more.
Resembles my earlier 4?

OK, so we have the original 4 non-JH, 3.5 more for the windmills thing, and then maybe these 3 more for the gold/beakers in CiB...there are my 10 non-JH towns to offset.
Yes we lose out on 4 * 2 commerce for CiB + 100% = 16 beakers.

At 7.5 beakers per Town over Preserve = 2 more towns for a total of 6 non-JH towns to offset?? Not 10?
Even if 10? That is not that much?? BT and GV together will be good for atleast 15 already... probably more...

We also lose 4 food from the windmills. That is two specialists less, for 6 +250% or 21 bpt more. Add another 3 or so non-JH towns.
That would be 2 Rep scientists right? So 6 + 250% = 21 bpt PER SCIENTIST
BUUUUT.... We arent running specialists of the food though...
Well... we are kindoff, as JH will need to take back the corn from LM to stay at max pop. But that at best would be 6 + 100% = 12 beakers per scientist = 24 total = +3 non-JH towns. OK... +9 non-JH towns... still well under the easy 15.

This is really just a scheme to make conquering Joao look good, isn't it? :lol: :crazyeye: :lol:
No it isnt, however I am still seriously considering taking out Joao. At say 20 turns to Hammies death leaving 60 turns to game end... Taking out Joao WILL add to our beaker output I think.

That is a lot of hammers, unless we can get the AI to get busy and build Broadway and R&R for us. We can probably manage -- we have the fur and whale (we need that WB!) and maybe even a market for a while to bridge the gap until singles and musicals are available. Let's hope the AI get their plantations (and precious resource mining) built.

If we are going to cottage, then we need to go absolutely INSANE spamming cottages. Otherwise it will not pay off.

R&R and Broadway are not even IF we build them but when even in Enviro to gift/sell to the AI for GPT. A good chunk of hammers yes.... definatly.

KaleLambiek

May 05, 2009, 11:48 PM

Your call, JH. Six turns (the mandatory peace) is a fairly short turnset, but attacking will probably add minimum 2 turns and maybe 3 to get Dur-Kur to fall.
Only if Dur K. has more than 6/7 units... OR gets increadably lucky!
Finish the obs, I think. Do we want a lab here now? Or maybe an additional missionary or two? If we are sending a galleon with the GM to Cuzco, maybe stick a missionary or two on board?

Wait, scratch that. Would get HC into the AP voting game. Although, it might induce him to start building Confu missionaries himself for AP boost, meaning more cash for our shrine.
Missionary to Cuzco for more "stop the war" votes??

+Beakers rulez everywhere anywhere (baring sleeps) except if it is needed to build gold to stay at 100%... Unless we can prove the x turns delay in +beakers will be much bigger than the loss in beakers for running < 100%.

Getting a missionary or 2 abroad to Shaka/HC/WK might be indicated at some point...

Do we want to consider a grocer here once we finish Guilds? Or maybe wait and then a bank -- bigger gold payoff per hammer invested?
Definatly Missionaries when we can we will not be in OR for ever...

Definitely lab. I think we should build the WB -- we will need the happiness to resist WW, and later we can trade it if we do not need it. We will need something to trade for gold, sugar, silk, etc. from overseas.
Resist what WW?? We arent experiencing any yet... why combat it??
We will get some but enough to warent a wb?

Road tiles, yes. Whatever we choose, I think the watermills are out. Pre-cottage once roads are done, I guess. Kale is persistent and is wearing me down!
I dont want to wear anyone down, I am just trying to get the best results all over... If NP in JH is better and we get to space faster... Please show me how?!
GPP wize CiB and JH are just about equal... So we wont get less GP. Though we get mixed GP instead of focused GSs.
GS would bulb Fission for us, but different GP can get us a GA (or two maybe 3) near the end to make good some of the lost beakers from the bulbs and get mundo more hammers at a time when we hare hammer limited.

One strategy I could think of, maybe, that MAY help space... Keep all forests around now to chop down into Parts. (this is possible right?) At +150% Forge/Factory/Power/Burocracy in JH each forest is 50 hammers, that is 600 hammers total and 60% of the engine... Still that leaves a lot of hammers to be got...
Building parts we are probably better off running Workshops, right??

I am not stubburn or convinced of my own way... I can be wrong, but I need more than a "gut feeling" to be able to support not going with Cottages... The numbers seem to support swapping to cottages with Emancipation/FS.

I would not trade Compass to Hammi. Instead, gift him Electricity this turn, and see if he will reach Friendly. If he does, we can trade for Theo + whatever gold he has, and then try the following turn to get Divine Right.
Would be very nice to net DR :)

Do we want to launch from SdL or from Sleepy? Not sure it makes a difference.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213290&stc=1&d=1241631478
Doesnt make MUCH difference, but SdL can reach 3 good points of attack landing on a total of 5 and moving to one of the three.
Sleeps can only reach 2 with three landing tiles.

Chop the forests, yes. Not sure on the cottages -- we are not sure whether we will found that filler city. It will not get an SoL free specialist, but will eventually get another trade route from Corporation. May want to bring the worker back to help pre-cottage JH instead.
Cottage the grass = Cottage the open grasses that IT would be working??

I thought we calculated a bit back that settling that filler city wasnt worth the hammers/gold/beakers invested?

I would grab all the non-WK gold per turn, certainly. I would not trade every time someone has 10 gold available, though; not unless we were going to trade (really give) something to them anyway. Try to grab slightly larger chunks of cash.
Yes no need to pick up every 10... no need to even look hard I think we can pick up cash next turnset too... Point to look for though is if any wonders finish (are any left out there??) to pick up cash.

Do we want another zep or two for the war with Hammi? CiB could produce one, maybe. Or IT?
We want 3 I think per stack of Troopers to damage the top 2 defenders good like (or possbily top 3?)

More would not be needed. But we want the Troopers first consider Zeps later.

If we can get techs along the top of the tree (Drama, Music) I assume we grab them?
We can probably take them on change for selling Education or something high beaker to HC for his 50/60 gold.

Getting lit for NE/HE would be nice
Drama for Theatres...

On gold to bridge the gap:

- More merchants? We lose some beakers per turn, but keep the overall slider up longer. And if we get a GM, lots and lots more gold to keep the slider up.
Where though??
5 in LM? for 15 gpt
3 or 4 in FH for sure, but 9/12 GPT wont save the day

- Build gold. Possible candidates are CiB, SdL, IT -- could amount to a decent number of coins.
Problem beeing they need +Beaker and +Commerce buildings still

- Conquest! We should start taking cities about T8 (Dur-Kur) and T12 (Babylon). A bit late to really help much, though.
War on T6, land
T7 Dur K. falls
T8 Move into Dur K.
T9 Drop to Babylon
T10 Babylon falls

Semi optimistic... but worth 200 gold if it works... Lets count on 100 gold or so from taking Dur K if we get Babylon too thats bonus.

- Trade resources for gpt, trade techs for small cash. Every bit helps.
GPT is 14 out there, maybe 15 with Currency to Shaka. Leaves -83 gpt. Save a 150 gpt if we keep the average at 85 vs 100 for 10 turns.

- If still not enough, build more gold: LM, Sleeps. Leave JH to carry the military load.
Sleeps needs to carry the Military while JH builds us Taj!
LM should be more concerned about future gold, missionaries/Bank/Grocer (in that order) if not concerned with +Beakers or +Commerce buildings.

Lets assume a real -95 gpt over the next 12 turns
1140 needed
100 Dur K conquest
443 we have now
180 we pick up now (baring HC's 10)
50 we pick up on a random tech sale someplace to someone.
===
Leaves 367 to be found

If we get 150 gold from Dur K, 317 gold needed
If we get additional 100 from Babylon in time 267 gold needed
If both Babylon and Dur K give 150, 167 gold needed

Perhaps our evil military genious can shine a light on the gold plunder from capturing cities? And tell us how likely we can get Babylon Turn 10?

JerichoHill

May 06, 2009, 10:04 AM

Okay, it seems like the best idea is to move us into position to Attack Hammi, take Dur-Kur turn 7, take Baby turn 10.

Cities:
SdL- Finish Moaui > Galleon > Barracks > Paratroops
CiB- Obs -> Lab -> Zep!
LM - Missionairy
IT - Lab> WB Whales > Zep!
JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops
BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge
GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)
TR - ???

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)

Fearless - Finish farm > Farm 1SW
Thorrez - Finish farm > Farm 1N > Watermill 1N
DeLorean - Finish pigs > Roads, WM 1 West of pigs, 1 S of Pigs
namliaM - Finish windmill > Preserve
Jules Verne - Move 2 SE, WM, SE, Road FP, Mine TR Hills
Emmett&Einy - Finish farm > Farm 2W
Dubya - Finish watermill > Preserve NNW of BT > Continue to work south to FH
AG - Pre Cottage JH, Road Tiles
Obama - ???
Biff - Move 1W and start road > Camp furs

Research:
Economics > Biology > Coorporation > Democracy,

Trades:

trade for Engineering from HC if possible
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
Joao - Compass for 40g each
HC - Has 10g. Not worth a trade IMO.
Currency to Shaka
Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
HC - Gift him Copper
Try and get other gold, always
Do not trade-Bang with Wang

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army

NOTES:

1) Hire an Engineer in SdL next turn.

2) Finish Granary in Bear town and FH. Galleon in BT to stop galleys

3) Worker north of IT:
- Start roading that last fur, to be followed by a camp
- Chop them western forests
- Cottage them grass

My suggestion is to move 1W, start road, then camp the other furs. IT will pop borders next turn. Useful for trade.

4) Leave no gold untapped in trade screen

5) Move the second zeppelin up north down to whack the barbs.

6) Stop the worker south of LM. That's AG... see my plan.

7) Running Merchants - As many as possible in FH after Happy Cap hit.

Team needs to decide
1) Do we cottage and lose all those worker turns? And get hit with Happy issues, DURING a war? Makes no sense to me.

2) Approve research path Economics > Biology > Corp > Demo

Kale To Do List
5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
6) Any other cities but Sleeps and JH should be building +Research +Commerce buildings while LM builds missionaries.

7) If I can, pre-cottage JH

Likelihood of taking Baby turn 10 --- Dude, you're talking to Mr. JerichoHill here. It's as good as done. Set up troops turn 5, attack turn 6 Dur Kur, capture turn 6, 2 or 3 turns walking (can't see if river crossing makes that two or three from picture), capture Baby turn 9 or 10. Simple.

With exams and my neuro-testing still going on and general dealing with crap issues, I cant really help out with the calculations, so I will accept whatever you and Hap decide upon. I will handily enjoy playing, however.

KaleLambiek

May 06, 2009, 11:20 AM

Likelihood of taking Baby turn 10 --- Dude, you're talking to Mr. JerichoHill here. It's as good as done. Set up troops turn 5, attack turn 6 Dur Kur, capture turn 6, 2 or 3 turns walking (can't see if river crossing makes that two or three from picture), capture Baby turn 9 or 10. Simple.

ERM HELLO !!! WALKING???!!!! :eek:

Mr. JerichoHill is he IN THE HOUSE??? or out in the STATE someplace???

Walk with Paratroopers!!!! You GOT TO BE KIDDING!

PLUS, there is NO WAY to capture Dur K. on turn 6!!!!

Sorry, that was a bit harsch,didnt have the best of days...

I wont delete the exact text, if someone gets an email or something of it then ... well... So its all here for everyone to read... I appologize if its a bit overboard.

But walk?? We are using Paratroopers, have you ever used Paratroopers?? Few people ever have, if you havent... I suggest you try it in a test game first...
They FLY or more exactly DROP from any city, and drop 5 tiles away. Then they can move exactly 1 tile (on road/rails/flat land/hills/crossing rivers/Jumping mountains it all doesnt matter).
Requirement for Dropping is the target tile must be visible (Zeppelin flight)
Requirement for moving, they cannot attack => No killing on turn 6, no capturing workers.

JerichoHill

May 06, 2009, 12:35 PM

Walk, Fly, You know what I meant. I wasn't thinking of the unit type specifically. Sorry.

Remember, I found out last week that I have birth defect in my brain that may need surgery at some point.

KaleLambiek

May 06, 2009, 01:46 PM

Well flying is 1 turn, not 2 or 3... Which is what threw me off... Babylonian culture would make river crossings null and void... 1 tile movement (if not flying) everywhere...

Best you could do is take Dur K turn 7 and move all Troopers in at turn 8, more than 8 turns for a turnset?? Dont know..

As for workers... I would focus them on cottaging and/or farming BT/GV for the moment... Buy us some more turns to decide on Cottages/Preserves in JH.

JerichoHill

May 06, 2009, 01:55 PM

8 turns sounds good for a turnset. Good solid finish goal.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 06, 2009, 02:05 PM

Don't forget the Taj! It'd be sad to lose it...

ChrisFromLux

May 06, 2009, 02:18 PM

Don't forget the Taj! It'd be sad to lose it...

We don't forget the Taj; according to Kale's calculation 'somewhere', we still have 16 turns to complete it (except if HC should get a low-odds-GE), and we only need 4 turns to build it ...

We should be able to delay it until the next turnset ... should also allow us to switch Civics in that Golden Age ...

ChrisFromLux

May 06, 2009, 02:43 PM

TR - ???

Forge ...

(Note: Keep riversides clear)

We still don't know what this means :(

Currency to Shaka
Shaka - 5gpt for Fur

Cancel that Fish <--> 1:gold: deal and wait for 1 turn after gifting Currency to see if his available gold raises, then only sell him Fur (like Kale and Hap suggested earlier :rolleyes:)

1) Do we cottage and lose all those worker turns? And get hit with Happy issues, DURING a war? Makes no sense to me.

Kale has shown us that Cottages are better ... we still need to figure out the timing though, but I guess we are all convinced?!?

Galleon in BT to stop galleys

I support that idea. After our first Paratroopers have their extra XP, those annoying barbs should stop bothering us. No need to wait for a Frigate here, normally (hoping the Barbs don't get lucky with the RNG again!)

so I will accept whatever you and Hap decide upon. I will handily enjoy playing, however.

I controlled his calculations, but I cannot add anything else. I'm convinced!

And to come back to my no-US-idea: for some reason, I thought we would still be able to run quite some specialists/scientists, beside the cottages, and that +3:science: from Rep (+ better multipliers) could outweight +1:hammers: for ~40 towns, with only a Forge to multiply atm.

Took another look at the save ... I was wrong, most (or all) specialists will work the towns; and am now convinced of US as well ;)

And the rest of the plan looks good for me!

JerichoHill

May 06, 2009, 04:52 PM

We don't forget the Taj; according to Kale's calculation 'somewhere', we still have 16 turns to complete it (except if HC should get a low-odds-GE), and we only need 4 turns to build it ...

We should be able to delay it until the next turnset ... should also allow us to switch Civics in that Golden Age ...

Right. Since I am planning on an 8 turn set, the Taj will be built in the next turnset

JerichoHill

May 06, 2009, 04:57 PM

Okay, it seems like the best idea is to move us into position to Attack Hammi, take Dur-Kur turn 7, take Baby turn 10.

Cities:
SdL- Finish Moaui > Galleon > Barracks > Paratroops
CiB- Obs -> Lab -> Zep!
LM - Missionairy
IT - Lab> WB Whales > Zep!
JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops
BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge
GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)
TR - Forge

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)

Fearless - Finish farm > Farm 1SW
Thorrez - Finish farm > Farm 1N > Watermill 1N
DeLorean - Finish pigs > Roads, WM 1 West of pigs, 1 S of Pigs
namliaM - Finish windmill > Preserve
Jules Verne - Move 2 SE, WM, SE, Road FP, Mine TR Hills
Emmett&Einy - Finish farm > Farm 2W
Dubya - Finish watermill > Preserve NNW of BT > Continue to work south to FH
AG - Pre Cottage JH, Road Tiles
Obama - ???
Biff - Move 1W and start road > Camp furs

Research:
Economics > Biology > Corporation > Democracy,

Trades:

trade for Engineering from HC if possible
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
Joao - Compass for 40g each
HC - Has 10g. Not worth a trade IMO.
Currency to Shaka
Cancel fish to Shaka, see whats shaking next turnset
Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
HC - Gift him Copper
Try and get other gold, always
Do not trade-Bang with Wang

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army

NOTES:

1) Hire an Engineer in SdL next turn.

2) Finish Granary in Bear town and FH. Galleon in BT to stop galleys

3) Worker north of IT:
- Start roading that last fur, to be followed by a camp
- Chop them western forests
- Cottage them grass

My suggestion is to move 1W, start road, then camp the other furs. IT will pop borders next turn. Useful for trade.

4) Leave no gold untapped in trade screen

5) Move the second zeppelin up north down to whack the barbs.

6) Stop the worker south of LM. That's AG... see my plan.

7) Running Merchants - As many as possible in FH after Happy Cap hit.

Kale To Do List
5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
6) Any other cities but Sleeps and JH should be building +Research +Commerce buildings while LM builds missionaries.

7) If I can, pre-cottage JH

attack turn 7 Dur Kur, capture turn 8.

KaleLambiek

May 06, 2009, 11:04 PM

Cancel that Fish <--> 1:gold: deal and wait for 1 turn after gifting Currency to see if his available gold raises, then only sell him Fur (like Kale and Hap suggested earlier :rolleyes:)
His GPT should change immediatly...

Kale has shown us that Cottages are better ... we still need to figure out the timing though, but I guess we are all convinced?!?
I dont know... You guys arent really trying hard for the NP in JH.
Downsides we havent even touched...
- NP in JH is 3 turns vs 13 turns in CiB (10 turns of otherwize nice beakers lost, atleast additional 500 or so)
- NP in JH gets the NE someplace else for more GPP overall
- CiB needs to build NE for a 5 turn build to get the same GPP as JH would
- CiB still needs to build Obs > Lab > Harbor > Airport
Though the Obs will be finished before NP can start delaying the others costs Beakers, not much but still costs beakers
Lab per turn 8 beakers, Harbor 6 beakers, Airport 8 beakers
22 beakers per turn lost, 13 turns for the NP + 5 turns NE = 18 turns = 396 beakers lost...

I dont think we have fully explored ALL the option(s) and/or ALL the considerations yet...

Also if I recall correctly most calculations of SoL were based upon running Rep instead of anything else for 6 beakers per added specialist... Not running rep will make that totaly different and make us not want to research demo at all, no demo, no Emancipation, no Eman, no fast cottage growth, no fast growth more commerce loss.

KaleLambiek

May 06, 2009, 11:24 PM

Cities:
SdL- Finish Moaui > Galleon > Barracks > Paratroops
Do we need/want these additional Troopers??
If so do they need the 3xp?

CiB- Obs -> Lab -> Zep!
Can we wait that long for more Zep(s), also we may be planning NP here.
Obs is 8 turn to build, so that should be good for your turnset atleast... but waiting for the lab to finish (another 8 turns) is going to be a long time for us to wait on a Zeppelin

LM - Missionairy
IT - Lab> WB Whales > Zep!
11 turns for the Lab to finish... need to consider if we even need the WB for the whales IMHO

JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. ParatroopsUnless we want to grow JH to pop 20, suggest we starve JH a bit more for 3 turns

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear)
What is this "keep riversides clear"?? At FH I presume?

DeLorean - Finish pigs > Roads, WM 1 West of pigs, 1 S of Pigs
NO need to road the pigs themselves! But I think you mean Move 1 west, Road,WM..

namliaM - Finish windmill > Preserve
Forget the preserves for now, make a Cottage 1N of GV instead..
1) The happy isnt needed right now *JIT*
2) The preserves may not work anymore at the time they start to matter.

Emmett&Einy - Finish farm > Farm 2W
I would prefer not to farm towards Hammi if we are going to war soon... Rather have 1 of these farm a little due east of Sleeps, while the other joins the cottaging effort down by GV/BT.

Dubya - Finish watermill > Preserve NNW of BT > Continue to work south to FH

What watermill (I repeat, WHAT WATERMILL)??????

Again be carefull about Preserves, BT is in no happy trouble, build cottages first.

AG - Pre Cottage JH, Road Tiles
Obama - ???
If we want to play friday not not lose worker turns while we are not sure of what to do NP/Enviro/Rep vs US/Eman/Cottage etc... Maybe move both of these down to GV/BT to do some usefull work there??

Research:
Economics > Biology > Corporation > Democracy,

Needs some pre-req's but OK...

Do we want to go Biology if we cannot trade for Engineering?

Trades:

trade for Engineering from HC if possible
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
Which means (at some point) we may be able to sink some golden hammers into it.

Currency to Shaka
Cancel fish to Shaka, see whats shaking next turnset
Shaka - 5gpt for Fur
Why our precious fur everyone wants?? Why not simply resell the fish for 5 or 6 instead of 1 gpt it used to be???

HC - Gift him Copper
And all other resources he is willing to take!

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army
On a non-Trooper hopefully... Do we want to send back the C1 Mace from SdL to try and get him to Medic as well?

Before we play on, we need SOME PLAN to cover the turn 7-turn 12 gold gap...
If we dont anticipate now, we may get stuck later on... Dropping the slider is NOT an alternative! IMHO.

ChrisFromLux

May 07, 2009, 01:07 AM

His GPT should change immediatly...

Well, yes, it will (probably) change immediately ... but it can very well go to 0gpt, and then only raise the next turn ... I have that very often (last time was yesterday evening; canceled 2 trades because of the same reason, for 1 Civ, gpt immediately raised like expected, the other Civ went down to 0 for 1 turn ;))

I dont know... You guys arent really trying hard for the NP in JH.

Because Hap and you calculated that ~35 cottages/towns over the whole empire, including JH, outbeat NP in JH!?

NP in JH gets the NE someplace else for more GPP overall

What will that help? Maybe 1 extra GPerson in the end? If we get very lucky, 1 more GPerson could mean 1 more Golden Age ... but normally, 1 late bulb will net less beakers than we research anyway every turn ...

- CiB needs to build NE for a 5 turn build to get the same GPP as JH would
- CiB still needs to build Obs > Lab > Harbor > Airport
Though the Obs will be finished before NP can start delaying the others costs Beakers, not much but still costs beakers
Lab per turn 8 beakers, Harbor 6 beakers, Airport 8 beakers
22 beakers per turn lost, 13 turns for the NP + 5 turns NE = 18 turns = 396 beakers lost...

Well, in any case, we will build the NE 'somewhere' (not in JH) ... whereever we build it, we will delay other buildings or gold-/research-building for some turns ... in every situation, there are some beakers which are 'lost'!

Also if I recall correctly most calculations of SoL were based upon running Rep instead of anything else for 6 beakers per added specialist... Not running rep will make that totaly different and make us not want to research demo at all, no demo, no Emancipation, no Eman, no fast cottage growth, no fast growth more commerce loss.

All calculations were based on running Rep, yes. I looked up this calculation by Hap:
Now, let's look at the Statue of Liberty -- do we want it? How long will it take to pay off?

The SoL costs 1000 hammers, but we get +100% since we have copper. If we build it in JH, that means we save 4/11 (+275% instead of +175%), for 637 total hammers invested. Using our usual 1:2 ratio on gold:beakers, that represents 1274 beakers.

Assume we run Rep. Then JH gets a free scientist for 6 * +250% = 21 bpt. All other cities run a merchant for 3 gpt (or 6 bpt given our 1:2 ratio) + 3 bpt at +50% (guess at an average bonus). Total is then 10.5 bpt.

Assume we have 20 on-continent cities after conquering Hammi. That gives us 21 + 19 * 10.5 = 220.5 bpt. Payback time for the SoL is only 6 turns! :eek:

Wow...that seems very short. And Rep is key, obviously. But it is clear we want the SoL.

If we redo that without Rep, that is:
JH's free scientist: 3 * +250% = 10bpt. All other cities still running merchants for 3gpt (= 6 bpt with the same ratio).

With the same 20 on-continent cities, this is 10 + 19 * 6 = 124 bpt.

1274 / 124 is still only 10 turns to pay back, even without Rep! Still worth it, no?

And researching Demo is still a given to run Emancipation and build those fast, better cottages!

ChrisFromLux

May 07, 2009, 01:14 AM

Do we want to go Biology if we cannot trade for Engineering?

No, we should not ... we should start beelining Corp until it is available:
Based on your (correct) calculations, I agree on Economics > Biology > Corp > Demo!

Engineering should be available via trade by then :please: (8 turns from now), and if not, we can always start beelining Corp until it finally is available.
Losses would be maximum (4277 - 3527 =) 750 beakers, if we had to go the whole way to Corp before going for Biology, but that is still less than the cost of researching Engineering ourselves!

Why our precious fur everyone wants?? Why not simply resell the fish for 5 or 6 instead of 1 gpt it used to be???

Of course :goodjob:

KaleLambiek

May 07, 2009, 11:30 AM

SoL without Rep
If we build SoL without running rep... Lets see.
Assume 15 cities each running a merchant. 45 gpt.
Investment in SoL: 1000 gold (if we would otherwize not build it)

1000 gold / 45 = 22 turns to get back the gold and start profiting... Ofcourse we get the 45gpt somewhat slower vs outright gold building... But at 45 gpt for say 50 turns = 2250 for 1000 gold that is a good exchange rate!

This doesnt even account for the additional beakers we get from other cities (like JH) running a Scientist or Engineer or does it take into account the (small) extra GPP.

So... IMHO... Rep or no rep, SoL we want, thus Demo we want... 45 gpt will pay for half our current costs :)
But with Hammies cities lets assume that pays for 30% of our cost (total going up to 150 gpt) still very very nice.

If we are going after NP in CiB and Emancipation/cottage to space... lets try and get a feel for worker turns that are required.
Worker priorities should be (I think):
- Have Preserves up around CiB
JIT when NP is about to finish, this means
10 turns researching Economics > Biology
11 turns to build NP
===
Only 21 turns to get all the preserves up, this is NOT a lot of time.
We will need some more workers up near CiB at some point to get this done ASAP, while keeping in mind that CiB... untill Opis falls... is right on the front line. So workers are at high risk untill that point.
With 6 preserves still to build I think that something like a 100 worker turns, less with Steam power...

Another incentive to go: Dur K. > Babylon > Opis

- MASS transpose JH to Cottages at the right time (2 turns of 6 workers ?? Or 3 turns of 4 workers?? To chop all that forest?)
21 turns to biology
5 turns Constitution > Corportation
5 turns PP > Demo (assuming we dont get lucky and have HC research PP for us)
==
31 turns to get a cottaging

With ~15/16 turns to our Taj GA and civics changes (rep?) ... we will NOT be in GA at that time... so building Christo is NOT optional to save us a turn of revolt going to Emancipation (from CoL)

OF ULTRA IMPORTANCE
Where do we find GOLD, we need 1200 gold to survive the next 12 turns at 100%.
Turn 7 Dur K. has fallen
Turn 11 Babylon gone, this may be to late to affect turn 11 though, also if Hammi stacks units in babylon we may run out of Troopers to take it fast (enough)

So 100 conquest gold, 767 we have = 867. Leaves 333 gold needed from someplace...
Assuming we run -92gpt (not -100gpt) on average, leaves 237. Where do we get this 333 to 237 gold??
I think we need to set SdL to gold production (post Moaui), or are there other suggestions??

JerichoHill

May 07, 2009, 11:33 AM

Bet on about 50-100 gold from trades I pull off extra
..So yeah, need SdL to produce gold.

JerichoHill

May 07, 2009, 06:09 PM

Okay, it seems like the best idea is to move us into position to Attack Hammi, take Dur-Kur turn 8. End set

Cities:
SdL- Finish Moaui > Galleon for Econ GM > GOLD (HAPPY!!!!!!)
CiB- Obs
LM - Missionary or gold if needed
IT - Lab or gold if needed> WB Whales
JH - Lake to LM. Corn to JH. Paratroops
BT - Worker > Galleon > Granary > Forge
GV - Forge
FH - Lighthouse (Net clam with WB 3 north of them)
TR - Forge

Workers: (Note: Keep riversides clear for watermills or cottaging)

Fearless - Finish farm > Farm 1SW
Thorrez - Finish farm > Farm 1N > Watermill 1N
DeLorean - Finish pigs > Move 1 West, Road, WM
namliaM - Finish windmill > cottage 1n of GV
Jules Verne - Move 2 SE, WM, SE, Road FP, Mine TR Hills
Emmett&Einy - 1 Farms Sleeps East> 1 Cottages GV/BT
Dubya - Cottage BT
AG - Pre Cottage JH, Road Tiles
Obama - Cottage BT
Biff - Move 1W and start road > Camp furs

Research:
Economics > Biology > Corporation > Democracy,
(switch Corp/Bio if Eng not available)

Trades:

trade for Engineering from HC if possible
3) Gift Electricity to Hammi, hoping to get him Friendly and pick up Theo this turn and Devine Right next turn or atleast before we DoW him.
3.1) Gift Devine Right to Joao in the hopes of him building Versailles (which is a Marble wonder by the way!)
Joao - Compass for 40g each
HC - Has 10g. Not worth a trade IMO.
Currency to Shaka
Cancel fish to Shaka, see whats shaking next turnset
Stalin - 3gpt for Fish
HC - Gift him Copper and othter crud
Try and get other gold, always
Do not trade-Bang with Wang

Troops:

Slaughter the barbs and get a medic promotion, then send the troops to SdL and prepare invasion army

NOTES:

1) Hire an Engineer in SdL next turn.

2) Finish Granary in Bear town and FH. Galleon in BT to stop galleys

3) Worker north of IT:
- Start roading that last fur, to be followed by a camp
- Chop them western forests
- Cottage them grass

My suggestion is to move 1W, start road, then camp the other furs. IT will pop borders next turn. Useful for trade.

4) Leave no gold untapped in trade screen

5) Move the second zeppelin up north down to whack the barbs.

6) Stop the worker south of LM. That's AG... see my plan.

7) Running Merchants - As many as possible in FH after Happy Cap hit.

Kale To Do List
5) Pick up more gold to cover the post-7-turn-pre-GM-gold period, possibly setting SdL to gold building
6) Any other cities but Sleeps and JH should be building +Research +Commerce buildings while LM builds missionaries.

7) If I can, pre-cottage JH

attack turn 7 Dur Kur, capture turn 8.

haphazard1

May 07, 2009, 06:58 PM

Plan looks pretty good to me, JH.

Admittedly, I have not had time to more than skim the most recent posts, due to many hours in training this week. I have had so many new terms and acronyms and little bits of info stuffed into my head, it is probably dribbling out my ears. :crazyeye: Things will hopefully get back to normal for me over the weekend.

One comment:

Cities:
SdL- Finish Moaui > GOLD (HAPPY!!!!!!)

We still need a galleon on the west coast to transport our Econ free GM to Cuzco.

It can not wait very long, if at all, without delaying the desperately needed trade mission gold.

If we still need more gold to bridge the gap, I suggest building gold in:

- LM (missionaries are nice for increased future gold, but not at the expense of dropping the slider now)
- IT (lab also nice in future, but again not at the expense of the slider now)
- CiB (ditto for obs).

Pretty much in that order.

Good luck with the set, JH!

KaleLambiek

May 07, 2009, 10:50 PM

We still need a galleon on the west coast to transport our Econ free GM to Cuzco.

:goodjob: I wanted to say exactly the same

Good luck JH

ChrisFromLux

May 08, 2009, 12:25 AM

Good luck JH

Yep, nothing to add from me!

Good Luck, JH, kick some A** ;)

JerichoHill

May 08, 2009, 09:31 AM

Okay, it appears we are all agreed, correct?

Ill either play today or tomorrow.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 08, 2009, 10:32 AM

Go JH, Go! :)

JerichoHill

May 08, 2009, 01:50 PM

Okay, prolly not today, too much studying needed still to do

Umm, Mast, your 16 year old came back right?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 08, 2009, 04:59 PM

Umm, Mast, your 16 year old came back right?

No, not yet. :(

I know where he is (mostly at his older brothers house), he's been going to school, and this town is very small and remote. Since the police work for me, they're keeping an eye out, too. Oddly, in Oregon, it's not illegal for a kid to run away. Instead of dragging him home and having it just happen again and again, I'm going to let him see what it's like to be on your own at 16. I was when I was 15... and it sucked, so I'm hoping if I give him space, he'll figure out home isn't such a bad place.

Thanks for asking.

JerichoHill

May 08, 2009, 08:16 PM

KaleLambiek

May 09, 2009, 12:05 AM

Okay Mast. Its good to know you at least know where he is and that he's safe. I think everyone has a time around the age of 16 where really stupid decisions are made, but I think you've got the right approach. At the very least alot of cooling off will occur.
I never was 16... Went right from 8 to 18 due to circumstances... So I cannot say I can relate...

I wish you all the good Mastiff, may your son be wizer than his age and contact his parents again.

And yes, looks like tomorrow I will take the turnset.
Again Good luck, Get that GM heading towards Cuzco! and Sink Dur K.

ChrisFromLux

May 09, 2009, 01:49 PM

I know where he is (mostly at his older brothers house), he's been going to school, and this town is very small and remote. Since the police work for me, they're keeping an eye out, too. Oddly, in Oregon, it's not illegal for a kid to run away. Instead of dragging him home and having it just happen again and again, I'm going to let him see what it's like to be on your own at 16. I was when I was 15... and it sucked, so I'm hoping if I give him space, he'll figure out home isn't such a bad place.

Hmmm, those are at least sort of good news! Good luck again!

JerichoHill

May 09, 2009, 03:02 PM

Sup Team.

My final was 3 hours long, not 2. That, and studying, and lawn work, left me no time to complete the turnset before heading off to to a celebration of our neighbor's marriage.

If we get back early enough, I'll play tonight. Otherwise I will use the turnset as a study break tomorrow. No worries, I am NOT hurrying this set!

JerichoHill

May 09, 2009, 07:26 PM

Downloading Save. Playing tonight for a bit. Maybe I get done, maybe I don't, I don't know.

haphazard1

May 09, 2009, 07:34 PM

No problems, JH. Life has to come first, always.

We are well ahead of any of the other teams, so we can afford some extra time here and there. The key is to avoid every turnset taking a week, because then we would be horribly rushed at the end, making mistakes and not having fun due to stress.

We have been playing for not quite 1.5 months, and have just over 2.5 months left before AlanH's stated deadline. If we hit our goals of finishing the required techs around T195, launching a short time later, flight time...maybe T210 finished? We are at T118 now -- more than halfway in turns, but with early game turns being short and late game turns being longer, I think we are probably playing at about the right pace.

Some of the teams who are still well back in the BC years, around T60 or so...they are going to have to step things up to meet the deadline. Unless they somehow launch by T150 or so, anyway. If they can, they deserve the laurels. :lol:

Just checked the progress graphs...several teams are getting into the AD years now. X-Team is looking very strong on score -- went for earlier conquest of Hammi or Joao, maybe? Land, pop, techs, wonders -- more land and pop seems likeliest. The Russian teams are further back in turns played, but also showing a jump.

JerichoHill

May 09, 2009, 07:49 PM

I loaded up the Save, queued my build orders, looked at the workers.

Houston, we have a problem with our tech order.

We cannot research Economics at the moment, because we do not have guilds or banking, the prereqs.

Please advise me of the new tech order you guys would like. Bio? Cons? Or Guilds->Banking-> Economics

EDIT: Nevermind, the original plan by Kale was to research Guilds -> Banking -> Economics -> Biology

Understood. Back to playing.

JerichoHill

May 09, 2009, 08:27 PM

Okay, I am tired and feel like playing a shooting game.

I did play through about 5 turns + inherited. I have 6 paratroopers and 3 blimps ready to attack Hammi. We have decimated the Barbs as they landed 6 CR3 maces and they all died. And yes, we still have the cows

We accomplished all our goals in trade, and I also got Aesthetics to boot. Current LM and IT are producing gold to stave off any issues, but we still have about 470 in the bank.

Our workers are also precottaging.

Left for me to do tomorrow is to attack Hammi. That's it. Oh yeah, we got a GM, and he is ready to board his Galleon.

haphazard1

May 09, 2009, 11:31 PM

Sounds good, JH! :goodjob:

Barbs smashed, next up -- Hammi! :devil:

Was the GM the free one from Economics? Or did we pop another GP? I had forgotten to check when our next GP was due to spawn.

ChrisFromLux

May 10, 2009, 01:29 AM

Sounds good, JH! :goodjob:

Yes, sounds good, JH. Kick Ham's a** :king:

Was the GM the free one from Economics? Or did we pop another GP? I had forgotten to check when our next GP was due to spawn.

Should be the one from Economics. Guilds > Banking > Economics was a 5-turn-research.

Next 'normal' GPerson should come in 1 or 2 turns, from LM, but is supposed to be a GScientist!

JerichoHill

May 10, 2009, 06:15 AM

Hey Hap, Chris. The GM was from economics. No other GP yet

ChrisFromLux

May 10, 2009, 12:34 PM

Hey Hap, Chris. The GM was from economics. No other GP yet

That's what I supposed ... a new GPerson should be born in LM soon, though, 1 or 2 turns after Economics ...

JerichoHill

May 10, 2009, 12:41 PM

Okay y'all.

I traded with Hammy a good bit this turnset...but only useless techs to him, majorly backfilled us. Our GM is on route to Capac and will get there BEFORE we run out of gold at 100% science, so Kale, you can thank me later for pulling off getting a ton of extra gold this turnset. WOOT!

My military may seem weird with the paras. We needed a military presence @ CiB just in case, so there is one Para around there. He was protecting a worker. There is another Para that just dropped in to say high to a fortified forty xbow of Hammy's. That should die next turn.

We attacked DurKur with 4 Paras against 4 defenders, with lowest odds at 95% or something. We won all 4 battles, and then I dropped a new Para into DurKur to bolster. Hammy has 3 military units but they are wounded by our airships.

Workers mainly did their thing, but I screwed up in pre-cottaging JH as I let a cottage actually build, thus losing a preserve. My apologies. That's I think the worst mess up

I did not trade with WK

Capac build Angor Wat

Anyways, we're clear through 100% gold for awhile now. Whoever is next, you get to capture Babylon. Hammy has NO military to speak of.

If it was in the turnset plan, it happened. Word.

haphazard1

May 10, 2009, 02:26 PM

Looks pretty good, JH! :thumbsup:

The early cottage is a minor error -- we do not actually have NP in JH, so we lose 1 hammer and 1 commerce per turn (until it grows to a hamlet, then we are even on commerce). We have enough happiness for now, so not a big deal.

Dur-Kur has a hospital (foolish Hammi, wasting hammers!) and a courthouse (yes!). Hammi does have one mace hanging around, but it will die quickly.

I think we should build more paras, although JH will need to build Taj sometime very soon. Showing as a 6 turn build right now...let's not leave it too late!

We will need to bring the northern paras back into the fight -- with enough paras we can form two attack groups, saving time in finishing Hammi.

Our next GP is due next turn from LM, with the following odds:

GS - 82%
GE - 10%
GP - 8%

Anything but a GP.... :please: GS can settle or bulb, GE can build Cristo (or R&R, or SoL, or whatever).

Angkor Wat...HC is welcome to it. :lol:

ChrisFromLux is now UP! to capture Babylon and keep smashing Hammi. :ar15::run:
haphazard1 is on deck.

I will update the roster and turnset report posts shortly. [Edit: Done.]

Nice work, JH! :goodjob:

JerichoHill

May 10, 2009, 02:35 PM

Yes, the two northern paras can be merged with newly built paras to be a northern attack force. Hammy had several units in the area when I attack so I had to push a para over there because CiB had just a Phalanx.

ChrisFromLux

May 10, 2009, 02:54 PM

If it was in the turnset plan, it happened. Word.

I haven't looked at the save yet, but everything sounds fine, JH :goodjob:

ChrisFromLux is now UP! to capture Babylon and keep smashing Hammi. :ar15::run:
haphazard1 is on deck.

Me again?

OK, I will study the save tomorrow, and suggest a first version of the plan tomorrow evening, about 24 hours from now ...

I will use my first Paratroopers :mischief:
(but I know how they work; don't worry ;))

haphazard1

May 10, 2009, 07:09 PM

Me again?

OK, I will study the save tomorrow, and suggest a first version of the plan tomorrow evening, about 24 hours from now ...

I will use my first Paratroopers :mischief:
(but I know how they work; don't worry ;))

Chris, yes, we have rotated around again. With Mastiff busy dealing with his situation, and Sleepless on vacation, we have only four active players. So things cycle pretty quickly.

KaleLambiek

May 10, 2009, 11:22 PM

Comments on the save:
- Maintenance
bumbed to -130gpt :eek:

- Market in JH??
I think we need to start Taj now right? Actually its overdue

- Bank in GV??
Not a hammer in yet, but still a bank?? WHY?

- LM
The one place that should NOT Be building gold is building gold :(
Bank> Grocer! Yes delayed gold but much more efficient than gold building
Maybe even Temple (+2/3 hammers, which will pay back itself within the next to builds) > Bank > Grocer

- Hammi bowman
Look out for Hammies bowman down south

- Units / Promotions
LittleJohn, Did we upgrade some unit to a RIFFLE?? :eek: That is a good chunk of cash...
Why was this not discussed??? Also, no Medic, I thought we specificaly discussed getting a medic?? We do have a 7xp C1 Xbow that can be made a Medic.. but I would have hoped him at the front, not back at BT.

- EPs
We have lost sight of HC's research... we need to compensate that!

- Troopers
I can understand the (feeling) of needing protection in CiB and Sleeps, eventhough like I said we have not had any counter movement what so ever...
But what is a fortified Trooper doing 3 south of CiB?
I think he dropped there to take out the XBow there... But do we really care about that XBow?

JerichoHill

May 11, 2009, 12:10 PM

Kale

Yes, we should build Taj in JH.
I just put a building in Queue at GV. I did not care which
We did mention LM building gold!
I had to upgrade a unit to a rifle because 4 Barb CR3 Maces showed up at once. I was not going to risk BT on a bad RNG. Plus, I had just gotten an extra 100 gold free from Japan by asking nicely, so that paid for the upgrade, so no loss to us.

I did see offensive units in that area during my turnset. Again, we didn't NEED all our paras. 1 group of 6 should be enough to take out Babylon.

PS: and Kale, 1 TURN EARLY! Where's the love?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 11, 2009, 12:21 PM

ChrisFromLux

May 11, 2009, 01:37 PM

Chris, yes, we have rotated around again. With Mastiff busy dealing with his situation, and Sleepless on vacation, we have only four active players. So things cycle pretty quickly.

No problem ... just wasn't aware of it ;)

The Pre-Play-Plan is about ready; will be posted tomorrow morning. I'm out of time tonight :)

haphazard1

May 11, 2009, 03:25 PM

I might can play soon. Doesn't look like he's coming back anytime soon, so I can't just let it bother me forever. I love him, but he needs to figure that out on his own. Just slide me in somewhere...

Hope things improve soon, Mastiff.

If you like, you can be the on-deck player (after Chris, before me), or we can slot you back in after me. Either is fine for me, just let me know which you prefer.

haphazard1

May 11, 2009, 03:34 PM

We do need to be careful around CiB until Opis gets taken -- the close borders allow Hammi to hit us quickly with little warning. And I do think we want that fort unit gone -- he is too close to our marble for my peace of mind. Losing the bonus to the Taj could be very costly.

I think JH is right that a couple more paras against Babylon will make little difference. That gives us a couple turns to finish off the fort unit and get the northern paras (or at least one of them, depending) in position to join in the conquest.

The Taj was showing as a 6 turn build -- am I mis-remembering that it was a 4 turn build? :confused: Either way, yes we need to get it started. Are we ready for the civic changes we want once we start the golden age? Or do we hold as we are and change at the end of the golden age?

KaleLambiek

May 11, 2009, 10:55 PM

I traded with Hammy a good bit this turnset...but only useless techs to him, majorly backfilled us.
I need to check our progress on techs, but doubt we have gained ground yet... We should gain some 'real' ground with our upcomming GA.

In fact bumping costs to 130 and inflation on the rize to 33% already, a bit earlier than I had anticipated/hoped for.
Of this 130 we are paying some 12 for units (one way or another) + 4 for inflation = 16... So losing a unit or two, or getting pop up should save us some costs.
Ofcourse growing cities and/or capturing them has its own costs...

Your report is lacking a bit in details IMHO. Some details on:
How much did capturing Dur K. Cost us (in gpt)?
How much gold/plunder did we get from that capture?
How many turns of revolt did we get (total)?
Having these little bits will allow us to plan in more detail for future captures.

Who did you trade Engineering from?? (assuming you did, from someone?)
Who did you leech what GPT from for what resource??

We attacked DurKur with 4 Paras against 4 defenders, with lowest odds at 95% or something.
Not so good :( I think we were quite lucky to pull this off.
I would prefer we have # of defenders + 1 (atleast). This allows for losing a battle at low odds of losing without compromising progress of capturing cities.

Workers mainly did their thing, but I screwed up in pre-cottaging JH as I let a cottage actually build, thus losing a preserve.
Thusly losing us 1 hammer/turn and 2 hammer/turn in the Upcomming GA (assuming HC dont beat us to Taj, like he did MoM).

How about we turn that cottage into a watermill?? Do we want to do that? Or do we just let it grow now? Losing out on some commerce now, gaining later. But losing out on a good load of hammers?

Anyways, we're clear through 100% gold for awhile now.
4 turns without any city building gold is not a while... that is some turns... ;)

It will however carry us long enough to get the GM to Cuzco... right?? I think 5 turn (from now) for the GM to arrive.
4 turns of cash in the bank, should work

Plus we have some good gold to get from the AI.

Also we may now deside we can do some non-building of I.e. Taj or Versailles, we have quite some turns ~4 now + ~10 from the GM + ~4 from gold we pick up from the AI (trade or plunder/pillage) before we need more gold to be build.
So getting some non-builds going for future cash(ing) is going to be important... In particular since we are running out of marble wonders...

LittleJohn, Did we upgrade some unit to a RIFFLE??
Assuming we upgraded a unit to a Riffle... I really really think this is really really bad... We need beakers right now, thus gold... and we spend gold on upgrades?
Now a Riffle does secure BT from any barb attack for a long while, but I think -feeling not fact- that we would have been better of building a fresh riffle (or even Trooper) to secure BT vs Barbs than upgrading a XBow/Mace to a Riffle...

Was the GM the free one from Economics?
I think we want to get another GM from FH, getting the 12/15 gpt off 4/5 merchants will help pay our maintenance for a bit and the GM will do the rest.

am I mis-remembering that it was a 4 turn build?
I think I calculated it as a 4 turn + some hammer build.. I probably made a mistake using overflow or something...

@JH
Japan?? LOL

Ofcourse I didnt note all the good things that happened... Getting all the gold and stuff is a good thing. Capturing Dur K. as per plan, nicely done.
Only 'strange things' go noticed while the 'normal/good' things hardly ever get recognized.

ChrisFromLux

May 12, 2009, 02:05 AM

Here is v1.0 of the plan, and I should be able to play every day of the week, except maybe on friday evening. Will depend on when we reach consensus.
I plan to play 8 turns.

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment. (Does anybody remember/know when we last begged for money?)
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- I forgot to check if better ressource-trades are available :blush:

Civics
- no changes: Emancipation won't be accessible during my turnset, but very shortly after

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is settled in LM

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -117:gold: = -351:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Market (2) or Trooper (2) or Cristo (?), depending on the war and LM's GPerson
- LM: Temple (4) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Lab
- SdL: Lab (5) > Odeon (1) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
- IT: Lab
- BT: Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Courthouse (8)
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- @JH: are there any tiles that are already precottaged? There are no signs :(
- why is there a 'Farm'-sign 2S of GV? Not needed there, that tile will be cottaged!
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, cottage grass-tiles
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then cottage the open grass in LM
- Fearless / GV: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, ...???)
- Thorrez / TR: mine and road both plain-hills in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then join AG in JH
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then road the last tile to FH

Military
- @JH: can you give me some info on what units Hammurabi had and where they are? Maybe some screenshots? It's a bit hard to plan this war when I only know the 2 defenders in Opis and that 1 mace SW of Dur-K; Airships can't move either this turn, so I can't take a look before hitting the red button :(

- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then moves to the front
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops

- I hope to get more info from JH before playing, but after Babylon, I could imagine going after Opis, to get rid of that culture that hurts CIB and Dur-K, as well as our unit-movement (except airlifts and drops), and then move around clockwise or counter-clockwise through the other cities

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now

ChrisFromLux

May 12, 2009, 03:33 AM

We do need to be careful around CiB until Opis gets taken -- the close borders allow Hammi to hit us quickly with little warning.

I agree. That culture-bomb hurts us: lost tiles in CIB, not many tiles to work for Dur-K, no usable roads, Hammi can attack CIB easily and fast (though he should be busy defending, but you never know).

That's why I suggest taking Opis after Babylon, if Hammurabi's troops allow this. How many units will we need to defend Babylon and Dur-K, JH? What does Hammurabi have?

And I do think we want that fort unit gone -- he is too close to our marble for my peace of mind. Losing the bonus to the Taj could be very costly.

Agree, and it's planned!

I think JH is right that a couple more paras against Babylon will make little difference. That gives us a couple turns to finish off the fort unit and get the northern paras (or at least one of them, depending) in position to join in the conquest.

Ahem, what northern Paras? We only have 1 Para near that fort; another one is in SS, and the rest is in or outside Dur-K?!

But leaving the most-hurt Trooper behind in Dur-K to garrison and heal, should still give us 6 Troopers to attack Babylon (adding the new one that will airlift from SS)!

Either way, yes we need to get it started. Are we ready for the civic changes we want once we start the golden age? Or do we hold as we are and change at the end of the golden age?

JH will start it immediately, but we won't be ready for Civic-changes at the start.

I suggest we switch to Free Religion and Emancipation once we learn Democracy = towards the end of that Golden Age, and then switch to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage once our cottages mature into towns ...

How about we turn that cottage into a watermill?? Do we want to do that? Or do we just let it grow now? Losing out on some commerce now, gaining later. But losing out on a good load of hammers?

We are about to cottage our tiles. No need to spend worker-turns now to destroy the cottage, and then rebuild it in some turns. Let it grow ...

It will however carry us long enough to get the GM to Cuzco... right?? I think 5 turn (from now) for the GM to arrive.
4 turns of cash in the bank, should work

4 turns until the GM executes the trademission (2 turns on Galleon and 1 turn to unboard). You cannot trust what the game tells you for Galleon-travel, because it cannot correctly handle the Fog we have to trespass ;)

Also we may now deside we can do some non-building of I.e. Taj or Versailles, we have quite some turns ~4 now + ~10 from the GM + ~4 from gold we pick up from the AI (trade or plunder/pillage) before we need more gold to be build.
So getting some non-builds going for future cash(ing) is going to be important... In particular since we are running out of marble wonders...

Ahem, non-building Taj ... when would you want to do that? We have to build and complete it now, in order to not lose it!

Versailles is OK, but it's not planned yet.Ppreview that in SdL once we cannot build any more missionaries (= next turnset)?!

JerichoHill

May 12, 2009, 07:14 AM

JerichoHill

May 12, 2009, 07:24 AM

How much did capturing Dur K. Cost?
(I dont know, sorry)

How much golddid we get from that capture?
(about 100)

Who did you trade Engineering from?
Should be in the turn log
Who did you leech what GPT from for what resource??
I more so leached Gold.

Not so good :( I think we were quite lucky to pull this off.
I would prefer we have # of defenders + 1 (atleast). This allows for losing a battle at low odds of losing without compromising progress of capturing cities.
I disagree. I had 1 extra paratrooper that could not attack. I was assured of getting 3/4 that turn, with good chance at 4/4, and with little visible reinforcement potential. It was a strong gamble.

It will however carry us long enough to get the GM to Cuzco... right?? I think 5 turn (from now) for the GM to arrive.
4 turns of cash in the bank, should work
That was my point.

Also we may now deside we can do some non-building of I.e. Taj

Now a Riffle does secure BT from any barb attack for a long while, but I think -feeling not fact- that we would have been better of building a fresh riffle (or even Trooper) to secure BT vs Barbs than upgrading a XBow/Mace to a Riffle.
If I had that luxury, I would have, but again, 4 CR3 Maces showed up in 1 turn. They would have crushed anything but paras, and I had one there at the time. Absolutely a must there.

JerichoHill

May 12, 2009, 07:26 AM

On units,

Hammi has approximately 3-4 defenders in each city in the south, 2-3 in the north. I counted about 8 roving units, mostly in the south, but one roving mace to the north.

He doesn't have many troops.

ChrisFromLux

May 12, 2009, 08:58 AM

He doesn't have many troops.

We don't either ;)

JerichoHill

May 12, 2009, 09:48 AM

We don't either ;)

We have uber troops

KaleLambiek

May 12, 2009, 10:04 AM

Does anybody remember/know when we last begged for money?
I moched money of Joao and (less importantly) Hammi at the start of my turnset now 14/15 turns ago?

JH seems to have gotten money of Japan (HC?) during his turnset...

I forgot to check if better ressource-trades are available
I have to check as well, I seem to remember there is some GPT to be had...

Emancipation won't be accessible during my turnset
We will want to time Taj so we can revolt to Emancipation by the end of the GA I think?

Revolt to Free Religion ASAP? Or keep stamping out Missionaries while we can untill we go to FR/Emancipation?

- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
Let these cities grow to their happy cap I think?? Running specilists only if we
- Dont have viable tiles to work (2 food or more)
- Run into the happy cap early

I think we want to grow as much as possible preparing for the GA and then maybe starve a little running a few extra specialists?
Do we need/want those cottages now due west of LM??

- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns.
?? I thought we were at -130 without any gold building?? Did you forget to stop one city from building gold??
I also thought the Merchant was 4 turns from Cuzco, but I may be wrong about that...
Still 3 * 130 = 390 or 4 * 130 = 520, should still be enough (barely, but enough)

We can also count on some plunder money from Babylon :)

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Market (2) or Trooper (2) or Cristo (?), depending on the war and LM's GPerson
Market?? Why a market? If for happyness, a Odeon is much better and much cheaper.
If for gold, we dont need the market if we are running 100%.

I would try to setup a overflow cascade using Aquaduct, Hospital among others to build to within 1 turn.
We are going to need some health boosters with those forests gone, the cascading overflow can either go towards building gold from an Odeon.
Or go towards Cristo or SoL ultimatly.

- CIB: Obs (1)> Lab
Setup CiB for the NP build??
3 turns to biology ... Missionary > Obs > NP ?? Or maybe Obs > Missionary > NP will work too?

- SdL: Lab (5) > Odeon (1) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
Why a happy building in a city where we are plannnig Globe? Its needed yes... but hopefully we can pickup Drama, spam a couple of Theatres for +1 happy in JH among others.
Then Start Globe here.

Globe is not as cheap as an Odeon, but having our Moaui city huge working all them hammered water tiles will pay off :D I think.

- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
Going for production, right...

- GV: Courthouse (8)
With some chops comming in right? Should speed up considerably...
Lib > Uni > +Beakers > +Commerce ??

- @JH: are there any tiles that are already precottaged?
I think the one tile we had pre-cottaged has actually been turned into a cottage already.

I think we want to precottage all the (roaded) riversides of JH, to turn them all into cottages just proir to the revolt to Emancipation.

- why is there a 'Farm'-sign 2S of GV?
I put this sign there, I caught a discussion some time back (if I remember correctly by one of the Misfit team members, namliaM) where they showed that building a good number of farms in a cottage city.
Prior to running cottages was more fruitfull than cottaging from the start.
So I thought we would farm the grasses first, to get the food/growth going. Then cottage the plains and back cottage the grass untill we run on 0 food working all the tiles.
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
Add any captured workers to aid Obama, or send them to JH to help the pre-cottage project.

We can build additional workers if we need them in former Babylonian cities as they run out of (properly) improved tiles to work.
I have not checked out Babylon in detail, but Dur K. looked bad after we captured it...

- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides
We need to much around BT to be pre-cottaging I think... Leave the Watermills for now, BT can use the production to build us a Pirate or two as well as all the +Beakers +Commerce buildings that will be needed.
We can cottage the watermills later when Atlantis is less of a threat and we can have more control over protecting the worker.
Cottage the non-coastal-riverside, yes... but others... I would leave and cottage BT to the gills otherwize.

- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, ...???)
We may want to build some Windmills for FH and/or some JUNGLE preserves for some added happyness for FH while we remain in Enviromentalism. Allowing FH to run more merchants.

- Thorrez / TR: de mijne en weg zowel platte-heuvels in het westen
We are setting up TR for production, but maybe as long as we are in enviromentalism, maybe working the uber windmill(s) is better. We will keep Enviro a while yet and +1 food +4 commerce is way better than +1 hammer.
We can come back to mine later... Meanwhile we are adding 4.4 beakers (FR) per hill and we may want Obs>Lab for the spacepart bonus anyway.... For 2 additional beakers as well...

It's a bit hard to plan this war when I only know the 2 defenders in Opis and that 1 mace SW of Dur-K; Airships can't move either this turn, so I can't take a look before hitting the red button
Check the screenshots from me and my turnset, Hammy aint got nothing (much)... What you see is what he has I think...
Prior to the red button you cannot do much anyways, and next turn you will need to move into Dur K. anyway so you can rebase the other airships to Dur K. Then end turn (and all you can do at Dur K. is (basicaly) defend)
Only then can you do something in attacking, but you will need to do a recon mission with an Airship over Babylon (perhaps the southern mountain range?) anyway to be able to land the Troopers.
- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
I havent checked in game, but do we have a "near medic" someplace that can go take this out? Maybe pick up the Medic promotion and be "usefull" again...???

move around clockwise or counter-clockwise through the other cities
The southern and western (coastal) cities are most usefull, Babylon > Opis > Clockwize makes most sense to me.
Problem may be that Opis is "out of the way" putting our troopers in a BAD position. Then ending the war on the istmus all the way west puts them out of position for heading for Joao, assuming we want that.
So perhaps the better part of valor is to bite the bullit on Opis and leave it be. Go clockwize all the way around Babylon, ending on Opis.
This however means we DONT want CiB to grow just yet, because we will need more than 10 turns to take down Opis this way... So we would need to hire an Engineer there for the time beeing to prevent it from growing... Taking a citizen of the Coast at -1 food -2 commerce, but +6gpp (less important) and +2 hammers. We should do this 5 or so turns, maybe the whole of your turnset taking away 8 food.
Then growing again at +1 food for 8 turns to work the final windmill when Opis is removed ~16-20 turns from now... Or if we can have a better estimate of the war progress??

Per city:
1 turn land
1 turn attack
1 turn Move into city
1 turn heal

4 turns per city at Opis beeing city #6 = 24 turns?? => With some more paratroopers and/or Zepelins, 20 turns?

Stop Criteria
- Joao DoWs us (highly unlikely, but still)

Ahem, what northern Paras?
The one 1 south of CiB covering the worker.

I suggest we switch to Free Religion and Emancipation once we learn Democracy = towards the end of that Golden Age, and then switch to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage once our cottages mature into towns ...
Dont know about Free Religion, +10% beakers = +10% beakers.
Perhaps we should switch at any given time in the first 2 turns of the GA for +5 turns of +10% research. It isnt much... but every little bit counts right? This would depend upon how many if any # of missionaries we want to build....

Revolting to FR in the first 2 turns of the GA allows us to swap to Emancipation on the last turn (right?? Or do we only have the first turn of the GA?)
I would also like to see confirmed if we have got a good enough chance to get Democracy inside the GA or not?? Per your plan we would need Democracy in 4 turns after finishing Corporation... Should be doable, but still lets make sure.

Ahem, non-building Taj ...
I am not sure we have to build it NOW. Building it NOW presumes that HC will have started the Taj build the very turn he researched nationalism, odds are it is atleast 1 or 2 turns delayed.
The risk though increases with every turn we delay... But every turn we non-build Taj is $$$ = more turns at 100%

At 32 base hammers or 88 "Taj hammers" we are in 5 turns time 27 taj hammer short = 9.8 base hammers short... I dont understand how Taj is a 6 turn build when we have 10 base hammer overflow??

I went back to find my post... about the Taj build...
At 469 hammers
....
At 33 base hammers + 175%, JH can build 90 hammers/turn into Taj and build it in 4 turns (with some overflow)
I dont understand how 469 hammers @90 hammers/turn = 4 turns?? It is 5 turns + something. Must have been a typo or something.

Also from that same post
Cuzco has 16 base hammers, HC dont have Marble. Even with Burocracy, OR, and forge and Monarch AI bonus that is going to be what 35-40 hammer per turn?? At 469 hammers its going to take him atleast 12 turns to build
This is rather liberal on the Monarch AI bonus, I dont think they get that much bonus on building wonders do they??
at 16 base hammers +50 Buro + 25 Forge + 25% OR (not sure he has OR or Forge, pretty sure he has Buro) = 32 base hammers.
469 / 32 hammers per turn = 14.65 turn build
469 / 34 hammers per turn = 13.79 turn build
469 / 37 hammers per turn = 12.67 turn build
469 / 40 hammers per turn = 11.72 turn build

<<
<< What is the bonus Monarch AI get on building a wonder?? >>
<<

As JH played 7 turns all together (right???)
So from my turnset on we have ATLEAST 4 to research Nationalism + 12 turns to build it = 16 up to (depending on the exact bonus) 19 turns all together.
Which is somewhere from 9-12 turns from now, plenty of time I would say.... And that is assuming HC will have started it on the turn he discovered Nationalism...

If all this is right... (please check someone) we have turns to non-build Taj a bit... Downside of delaying Taj is the loss of turns on Free Religion for +10% beakers. So it is a consideration if we want to delay it or not... can we delay it or not... or must we delay it to be able to addopt Emancipation at the end of the GA?
Do we go Corporation > Demo = Start SoL/Emancipation ASAP?
Or go Corporation > Steam power > Demo

We would build a Levee in JH thus maybe we dont even lose time on the SoL Build while gaining worker turns (needs considering/calculating)
+6 base hammers (or more with the GA extra base hammer on the cottage(s) ) from the riversides + some more forests chopped towards SoL ... A somewhat later Emancipation, but more cottages to profit directly/faster from it...

What is best??

What about Corporation > Assembly Line > Demo (hoping to trade for PP)...
Probably delays to much...

How much did capturing Dur K. Cost?
I dont know, sorry
Chris, please note this type of information if you capture cities... This will help greatly in planning the future...
How much did we plunder?
How much does the new city cost?

Who did you trade Engineering from?
Should be in the turn log
What log?? Thats my point...

If I had that luxury, I would have, but again, 4 CR3 Maces showed up in 1 turn
LOL 4 CR3 Macemen :)

Oops... Well keeping the city is probably more important than any gold ;)
I wonder how many of our companion teams have settled a city near BT and lost it?? Cannot wait to go and read....
>> Just making sure: <<
We cannot read right?? Eventhough we are centuries ahead of the other teams??

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO You may not read until you finish the game, so, NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

haphazard1

May 12, 2009, 03:13 PM

Some thoughts on the plan. Looks pretty good overall, Chris. :thumbsup:

Civics
- no changes: Emancipation won't be accessible during my turnset, but very shortly after

Presumably all civic changes need to be coordinated with the Taj golden age. More on timing that below. But where is the mention of Rep? :confused: People have mentioned the eventual change to US once our cottages are grown, but in the meantime we want Rep! Free SoL specialists, FH, LM, settled GP -- more beakers. I think we should change to Rep on the first golden age turn, whatever else we change.

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is settled in LM

If we get (yet another) prophet, do we want to consider possible Taoist or Islamic shrines? Islam is probably out, since it will not spread much without missionaries and we are not really planning to stay in OR much longer. How far has Joao spread Taoism?

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -117:gold: = -351:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Market (2) or Trooper (2) or Cristo (?), depending on the war and LM's GPerson

If we do get a GE, I think Cristo could be powerful -- pop into OR when we need some missionaries, or Pacifism for some GPP. Quick slavery swaps for whipping, then back to Emacipation.

How many hammers does a GE provide at quick speed, this size map, etc.? Could it be worth spending on SoL, to get it near-instantly and get those free specialists?

- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front

Take advantage of Sleeps airport on a non-para turn to airlift him to (probably) Babylon once it falls.

- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then moves to the front

And the other para, next to CiB. It may be fastest to move them into CiB and have them drop, not sure.

- I hope to get more info from JH before playing, but after Babylon, I could imagine going after Opis, to get rid of that culture that hurts CIB and Dur-K, as well as our unit-movement (except airlifts and drops), and then move around clockwise or counter-clockwise through the other cities

Since we have two paras up north, maybe add a couple in a fresh drop from Sleeps and hit Opis? While the Dur-Kur/Babylon stack hits the southern cities?

I suggest we switch to Free Religion and Emancipation once we learn Democracy = towards the end of that Golden Age, and then switch to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage once our cottages mature into towns ...

Do we plan many more missionaries? I am thinking Rep + FR on the first turn of the golden age, to get more beakers (and some happiness). Not sure if we can also get Democracy in time for Emancipation on the last turn of the golden age?

Maybe if we get another prophet, we should hold onto him for a golden age to cover the US + FS revolt? Avoiding turns of anarchy may be worth a lot more than a couple hammers and 5 gpt.

We are about to cottage our tiles. No need to spend worker-turns now to destroy the cottage, and then rebuild it in some turns. Let it grow ...

:agree: Unfortunate to get it early, but pretty minor overall. We lose some hammers, but will pretty quickly be getting more commerce. And we have enough to do that spare worker turns are rather scarce.

We will want to time Taj so we can revolt to Emancipation by the end of the GA I think?

Revolt to Free Religion ASAP? Or keep stamping out Missionaries while we can untill we go to FR/Emancipation?

Again, where is the Rep? I agree on getting Emancipation by the end of the golden age if we can time that without risking loss of the Taj.

Market?? Why a market? If for happyness, a Odeon is much better and much cheaper.
If for gold, we dont need the market if we are running 100%.

I would try to setup a overflow cascade using Aquaduct, Hospital among others to build to within 1 turn.
We are going to need some health boosters with those forests gone, the cascading overflow can either go towards building gold from an Odeon.
Or go towards Cristo or SoL ultimatly.

If JH is not going to start the Taj right away, I think this has to be more paras. We do not have enough yet for a two-stack assault, and I think we want that. If we really intend to attack Joao later, we will need them for that as well.

Setup CiB for the NP build??
3 turns to biology ... Missionary > Obs > NP ?? Or maybe Obs > Missionary > NP will work too?

Definitely get this going as soon as we can. We want all the benefit we can get from the NP, and also need to get NE here ASAP (do we have Lit yet? Can not open the save right now).

Why a happy building in a city where we are plannnig Globe? Its needed yes... but hopefully we can pickup Drama, spam a couple of Theatres for +1 happy in JH among others.
Then Start Globe here.

Globe is not as cheap as an Odeon, but having our Moaui city huge working all them hammered water tiles will pay off :D I think.

Globe takes a LONG time to build, though. Will we have enough happiness in the meantime?

I put this sign there, I caught a discussion some time back (if I remember correctly by one of the Misfit team members, namliaM) where they showed that building a good number of farms in a cottage city.
Prior to running cottages was more fruitfull than cottaging from the start.
So I thought we would farm the grasses first, to get the food/growth going. Then cottage the plains and back cottage the grass untill we run on 0 food working all the tiles.

I remember that discussion, and yes our former member (anyone heard anything?) namliaM was a main participant. The farm idea does work, if you have both enough happiness to make the rapid growth worthwhile and plenty of worker turns available.

With JH needing a lot of work soon, plus Hammi's cities to convert, do we have the worker turns for it?

Add any captured workers to aid Obama, or send them to JH to help the pre-cottage project.

We can build additional workers if we need them in former Babylonian cities as they run out of (properly) improved tiles to work.
I have not checked out Babylon in detail, but Dur K. looked bad after we captured it...

If we can keep them safe, starting on captured cities may be better than walking workers all the way back east, then building more out west. But that depends on a lot of factors, obviously.

We need to much around BT to be pre-cottaging I think... Leave the Watermills for now, BT can use the production to build us a Pirate or two as well as all the +Beakers +Commerce buildings that will be needed.
We can cottage the watermills later when Atlantis is less of a threat and we can have more control over protecting the worker.
Cottage the non-coastal-riverside, yes... but others... I would leave and cottage BT to the gills otherwize.

Sounds good to me.

We may want to build some Windmills for FH and/or some JUNGLE preserves for some added happyness for FH while we remain in Enviromentalism. Allowing FH to run more merchants.

We are setting up TR for production, but maybe as long as we are in enviromentalism, maybe working the uber windmill(s) is better. We will keep Enviro a while yet and +1 food +4 commerce is way better than +1 hammer.
We can come back to mine later... Meanwhile we are adding 4.4 beakers (FR) per hill and we may want Obs>Lab for the spacepart bonus anyway.... For 2 additional beakers as well...

:agree: with all this as well.

The southern and western (coastal) cities are most usefull, Babylon > Opis > Clockwize makes most sense to me.
Problem may be that Opis is "out of the way" putting our troopers in a BAD position. Then ending the war on the istmus all the way west puts them out of position for heading for Joao, assuming we want that.
So perhaps the better part of valor is to bite the bullit on Opis and leave it be. Go clockwize all the way around Babylon, ending on Opis.

I do not think positioning for later war with Joao is all that critical -- worst case they can do a couple of drops to chain their way back east in about 3 turns. This is a pretty minor concern I think. Getting rid of Opis earlier will simplify our lives quite a bit.

Or if we can have a better estimate of the war progress??

Per city:
1 turn land
1 turn attack
1 turn Move into city
1 turn heal

4 turns per city at Opis beeing city #6 = 24 turns?? => With some more paratroopers and/or Zepelins, 20 turns?

20+ turns...ouch. :( This is why I want to manage a 2-stack attack -- we could cut 8 turns off the timing for finishing Hammi. Cities coming out of revolt sooner, ready to go after Joao earlier (if we do that)...lots of gains all around.

Dont know about Free Religion, +10% beakers = +10% beakers.
Perhaps we should switch at any given time in the first 2 turns of the GA for +5 turns of +10% research. It isnt much... but every little bit counts right? This would depend upon how many if any # of missionaries we want to build....

I think we want FR on the first GA turn -- +10% research, plus much lower costs than OR to save some gpt. Unless we still really need missionaries, I think FR is an obvious move. (Plus Rep, as I have already said. :))

Revolting to FR in the first 2 turns of the GA allows us to swap to Emancipation on the last turn (right?? Or do we only have the first turn of the GA?)

I think we have only the first turn of the GA, plus the last. 5 turn gap between revolts.

I would also like to see confirmed if we have got a good enough chance to get Democracy inside the GA or not?? Per your plan we would need Democracy in 4 turns after finishing Corporation... Should be doable, but still lets make sure.

Yes, the timing needs to be worked out carefully.

I am not sure we have to build it NOW. Building it NOW presumes that HC will have started the Taj build the very turn he researched nationalism, odds are it is atleast 1 or 2 turns delayed.
The risk though increases with every turn we delay... But every turn we non-build Taj is $$$ = more turns at 100%

Losing the Taj would be a HUGE disaster, though. Lost GA, turns of anarchy for our civic swaps, lost productivity and GPP...just too ugly to contemplate. :( We should not push the edge on this.

Also from that same post

This is rather liberal on the Monarch AI bonus, I dont think they get that much bonus on building wonders do they??
at 16 base hammers +50 Buro + 25 Forge + 25% OR (not sure he has OR or Forge, pretty sure he has Buro) = 32 base hammers.

+50% for Industrious. And industrious gets cheap forges, so I think it is nearly certain he has that as well. We can check if he is in OR.

16 base +50% Bur +50% industrious +25% forge = 36, 40 if he runs OR.

Can we see his tiles yet? Since his capital is coastal, could he have Moai in Cuzco? Our base hammer estimate could be low.

469 / 32 hammers per turn = 14.65 turn build
469 / 34 hammers per turn = 13.79 turn build
469 / 37 hammers per turn = 12.67 turn build
469 / 40 hammers per turn = 11.72 turn build

<<
<< What is the bonus Monarch AI get on building a wonder?? >>
<<

We know he just finished Angor Wat during JH's set -- was this in Cuzco? If so, then maybe we have a bit more margin?

As JH played 7 turns all together (right???)
So from my turnset on we have ATLEAST 4 to research Nationalism + 12 turns to build it = 16 up to (depending on the exact bonus) 19 turns all together.
Which is somewhere from 9-12 turns from now, plenty of time I would say.... And that is assuming HC will have started it on the turn he discovered Nationalism...

If all this is right... (please check someone) we have turns to non-build Taj a bit... Downside of delaying Taj is the loss of turns on Free Religion for +10% beakers. So it is a consideration if we want to delay it or not... can we delay it or not... or must we delay it to be able to addopt Emancipation at the end of the GA?
Do we go Corporation > Demo = Start SoL/Emancipation ASAP?
Or go Corporation > Steam power > Demo

As above, losing Taj would be a disaster. So I think we need to keep a few turns margin even on the "worst" case. If we want to do some marble gold building, we can use Versailles, or (with Lit) NE and HE (which are under our full control). Plus the FR beakers....

Let's just build the darn thing, however fits our schedule for our planned civic swaps. I doubt we can afford a delay for Steam Power. And if we want all these cottages to pay off, the sooner we can start growing them with Emancipation the better.

We would build a Levee in JH thus maybe we dont even lose time on the SoL Build while gaining worker turns (needs considering/calculating)
+6 base hammers (or more with the GA extra base hammer on the cottage(s) ) from the riversides + some more forests chopped towards SoL ... A somewhat later Emancipation, but more cottages to profit directly/faster from it...

"Extra base hammer on the cottages"? :confused: What base hammer? We certainly are not going to have full grown towns with US for the golden age.

What is best??

What about Corporation > Assembly Line > Demo (hoping to trade for PP)...
Probably delays to much...

Delays way too much, I think.

Chris, please note this type of information if you capture cities... This will help greatly in planning the future...
How much did we plunder?
How much does the new city cost?

:agree: We need this info to decide whether going after Joao is really worthwhile.

LOL 4 CR3 Macemen :)

Oops... Well keeping the city is probably more important than any gold ;)
I wonder how many of our companion teams have settled a city near BT and lost it??

CR3 macemen seem pretty quaint when we are fielding paras, don't they? :) Nonetheless, CR3 maces are pretty nasty against pre-gunpowder units defending a city. No city razing, so it could be retaken, but even a temporary loss would be messy. Lots of building destroyed, etc.. And we might see the barbs using that airport in Atlantis for quick reinforcements.

Cannot wait to go and read....
>> Just making sure: <<
We cannot read right?? Eventhough we are centuries ahead of the other teams??

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO You may not read until you finish the game, so, NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Correct. No reading at all until our game is finished and submitted, and we are officially notified by AlanH that we can.

Still a ways off, that. :lol:

So what do we need to settle for Chris to play his turnset? The timing of Taj seems about the largest issue, with some smaller issues to clean up in builds, worker turns, etc.

It would be good to settle the plan and manage more than one turnset a week. We are tracking well against the schedule, but we might need extra time later for any number of possible reasons.

JerichoHill

May 12, 2009, 06:55 PM

We definitely want Taj sooner rather than later.

I dont look at Joao as a target. Look at what maintenance is going with just capturing Dur Kur!

KaleLambiek

May 12, 2009, 11:23 PM

I think we should change to Rep on the first golden age turn, whatever else we change.Hmz, Rep, forgot about that one :)

If we get (yet another) prophet, do we want to consider possible Taoist or Islamic shrines? Islam is probably out, since it will not spread much without missionaries and we are not really planning to stay in OR much longer. How far has Joao spread Taoism?
6 cities with Taoism, 2 Islamic cities. Not worth the shrine in either case IMHO unless we spread it forther.

How many hammers does a GE provide at quick speed, this size map, etc.? Could it be worth spending on SoL, to get it near-instantly and get those free specialists?
I would prefer to use a GE on a non-bonus wonder like Cristo or R&R

Maybe if we get another prophet, we should hold onto him for a golden age to cover the US + FS revolt? Avoiding turns of anarchy may be worth a lot more than a couple hammers and 5 gpt.
That is another option :)

Again, where is the Rep? I agree on getting Emancipation by the end of the golden age if we can time that without risking loss of the Taj.
I think (if someone can check) we have space still under the "risk limit" of losing Taj

If JH is not going to start the Taj right away, I think this has to be more paras. We do not have enough yet for a two-stack assault, and I think we want that. If we really intend to attack Joao later, we will need them for that as well.
Yep, we are at war... unless other pressing matters (like upcomming WW) Paras is Prio #1.
Theatre and Odeon are the best ways to fight the WW.

Definitely get this going as soon as we can. We want all the benefit we can get from the NP, and also need to get NE here ASAP (do we have Lit yet? Can not open the save right now).
We have Lit and Drama

Globe takes a LONG time to build, though. Will we have enough happiness in the meantime?
Long = 4 turns?? I dont think that is long??
1 turn theatre (33) + need 5 more theatres elsewhere
4 turns Globe (201 @ 58 hammers per turn)

If we can keep them safe, starting on captured cities may be better than walking workers all the way back east, then building more out west. But that depends on a lot of factors, obviously.
Our core cities though have the +Beaker buildings to multiply any cottage build and the cottage growing. Getting our core cottaged/improved is MUCH more cost effective... Instead of having +2 commerce we get +2 commerce +100% ...

I think we want FR on the first GA turn -- +10% research, plus much lower costs than OR to save some gpt. Unless we still really need missionaries, I think FR is an obvious move. (Plus Rep, as I have already said. :))
Rep, yes probably. I forgot that... :)
FR gives -10GPT right now, while Rep is +5gpt in cost.

+50% for Industrious. And industrious gets cheap forges, so I think it is nearly certain he has that as well. We can check if he is in OR.

16 base +50% Bur +50% industrious +25% forge = 36, 40 if he runs OR.

Can we see his tiles yet? Since his capital is coastal, could he have Moai in Cuzco? Our base hammer estimate could be low.
I recounted myself, 17.. Probably forgot the CC.
Unless he has seriously been mining since we updated his map.... but the GM will confirm that.

I can also confirm he is in OR.... So 40 per turn = 12 turn build.

We know he just finished Angor Wat during JH's set -- was this in Cuzco? If so, then maybe we have a bit more margin?
Yes Cuzco... 20 years ago... = 1 turn ago... So at best he is building it 1 turn now leaves us 10 turns ...

"Extra base hammer on the cottages"? :confused: What base hammer? We certainly are not going to have full grown towns with US for the golden age.
Levee = Riverside hammers = riverside cottages for hammers...

Delays way too much, I think.
I think I agree, but consider the option of building factories while in GA??

KaleLambiek

May 12, 2009, 11:25 PM

We definitely want Taj sooner rather than later.

I dont look at Joao as a target. Look at what maintenance is going with just capturing Dur Kur!

Not that bad IMHO. With Dur K. not even out of revolt and all cities building wealth we are at +51 gpt.

And we still have to build the FP in Babylon AND SP to addopt.... I think taking Joao is a given.

ChrisFromLux

May 13, 2009, 12:55 AM

I have to check as well, I seem to remember there is some GPT to be had...

There is more gold available:

4gold from HC ... I will stop gifting him rice, and sell it instead.

2gold from Joao ... I will renew our Fur <--> Gold deal.

1gold from Shaka ... I will renew that gold-deal as well, but it takes 3 turns before I can cancel it. Maybe, by then, he has more gold available :)

We will want to time Taj so we can revolt to Emancipation by the end of the GA I think?

I rechecked this; the first plan doesn't work out. On quick, a Golden Age is 6 turns! (right?)

6 turns to build Taj Mahal + 6 turns in Golden Age = 12 turns.
But, 'my techs' take 8 turns to research + another 4 turns for Democracy = 12 turns as well.

And looking at those different tech-costs, I don't think the Golden Age would shave a turn off of those next techs.

Result: we could not switch to Emancipation during the GA anymore. New plan: delay the Taj Mahal in JH for 2 turns, allowing JH to build a new Trooper and SdL to invest some hammers into the Taj, and then build it in 6 turns in JH.
This allows to switch to Emancipation on the last turn and we should complete it before HC. And another Trooper isn't bad either!

Revolt to Free Religion ASAP? Or keep stamping out Missionaries while we can untill we go to FR/Emancipation?

I would go to Free Religion ASAP. Those +10% are worth more than a few missionaries.

?? I thought we were at -130 without any gold building?? Did you forget to stop one city from building gold??
I also thought the Merchant was 4 turns from Cuzco, but I may be wrong about that...

No, I think I am right ;)

I stopped building wealth in LM, and we went to -117.

And about the Merchant: if you move the Galleon-cursor to Cuzco, it tells you it needs 3 or 4 more turns. But that is because your planned way goes through some unrevealed tiles. For every move into an unrevealed tile, CIV calculates a whole turn.

Market?? Why a market? If for happyness, a Odeon is much better and much cheaper.

True ... forget the market.

Setup CiB for the NP build??
3 turns to biology ... Missionary > Obs > NP ?? Or maybe Obs > Missionary > NP will work too?

You're right. I planned the Lab because we need that Scientist-slot once we leave Caste System. But we should build it after NP and NE!

For the order, there's no difference, though?! We get no bonuses for either build, no extra-multipliers for overflow, ...?

I think the one tile we had pre-cottaged has actually been turned into a cottage already.

JH, can you confirm this?

We are setting up TR for production, but maybe as long as we are in enviromentalism, maybe working the uber windmill(s) is better.

OK.

I havent checked in game, but do we have a "near medic" someplace that can go take this out? Maybe pick up the Medic promotion and be "usefull" again...???

Nope ... we have some units in BT, and 1 XBow and 2 Phalanxes in SdL. All other cities only have 1 garrison-unit.

Don't you like the BT-XBow being our Medic?

The southern and western (coastal) cities are most usefull, Babylon > Opis > Clockwize makes most sense to me.
Problem may be that Opis is "out of the way" putting our troopers in a BAD position.

OK, so we could use our Babylon-stack to go around clock-wise (once Babylon is captured), and use a new stack to take out Opis. That new stack could be the northern Trooper, the Fort-Trooper, the new guy from JH before it builds Taj Mahal and the new one from SS. 4 Troopers should be more than enough, while the other Troopers take the other cities.
From Opis, this new stack could then join the other stack using 2 drops (1 to Babylon, 1 to the stack), if needed, or start taking the northern cities counter-clock-wise, depending on how the war goes?! Going north is desired, of course!

Joao DoWs us (highly unlikely, but still)

Impossible!

Joao doesn't declare war when he is pleased (and he doesn't have enough on his hands yet), and he can't be bribed either when he is pleased.

Chris, please note this type of information if you capture cities... This will help greatly in planning the future...
How much did we plunder?
How much does the new city cost?

I always note this type of information in my reports ;-)

But where is the mention of Rep?

True ... it won't be for long, but in the meantime, it pays off, of course!

So, on the 1st turn of the Golden Age, we switch to Free Religion and Representation, and on the last turn, we'll switch to Emancipation.

Could it be worth spending on SoL

No, because the GE's-output is fix, and not multiplied (by Copper in this case).

It's better to use GEs on non-resource-wonders like Cristo, and build SoL ourselves, using the Copper-bonus!

Take advantage of Sleeps airport on a non-para turn to airlift him to (probably) Babylon once it falls.
[...]
And the other para, next to CiB. It may be fastest to move them into CiB and have them drop, not sure.

Yep, that's about the plan, but I will decide that in the game while I play ...

our former member (anyone heard anything?) namliaM

No :(

So what do we need to settle for Chris to play his turnset? The timing of Taj seems about the largest issue, with some smaller issues to clean up in builds, worker turns, etc.

It would be good to settle the plan and manage more than one turnset a week. We are tracking well against the schedule, but we might need extra time later for any number of possible reasons.

Yes, Taj Mahal-timing is the most important. If my plan above is correct, it should allow us to change the civics like planned while allowing us to complete it before HC!?

I propose to let you comment on this reply, as well as on the other posts.
Then, tomorrow morning (~24 hours from now), I will update the plan to take into consideration everything that has already been discussed and will still follow, and on Friday evening (~70 hours from now), I will play my turnset. This should give you all enough time to confirm the last version of the plan and to make sure I didn't forgot anything!

6 cities with Taoism, 2 Islamic cities. Not worth the shrine in either case IMHO unless we spread it forther.

:agree:

Using him for another Golden Age instead of settling him in LM could pay off, though!

I think I like that idea :D

KaleLambiek

May 13, 2009, 01:13 AM

We now need 1130 beakers per turn to finish teching at turn 195, down from 1155 beakers per turn prior to the turnset largely due to the trade for Feudalism and the Lib bulb offcourse.
1155 at turn 113
1130 at turn 118
1140 at turn 123 (discovery of Chemistry)

To finish teching on turn 195, current beakers per turn 753
+ 11 * 4.5 = 49.5 Corporation Traderoutes
+ 10 Lab in SdL
+ 8 Obs in CiB

Total 820 beakers per turn (soon), still some 300!! Beakers short!!!!

WE NEED BEAKERS !!!!

KaleLambiek

May 13, 2009, 01:24 AM

There is more gold available:

4gold from HC ... I will stop gifting him rice, and sell it instead.

2gold from Joao ... I will renew our Fur <--> Gold deal.

1gold from Shaka ... I will renew that gold-deal as well, but it takes 3 turns before I can cancel it. Maybe, by then, he has more gold available
Problem with joao is your cancelling a Happy resource, which will drop his available GPT....

I rechecked this; the first plan doesn't work out. On quick, a Golden Age is 6 turns! (right?)
Right

Result: we could not switch to Emancipation during the GA anymore. New plan: delay the Taj Mahal in JH for 2 turns, allowing JH to build a new Trooper and SdL to invest some hammers into the Taj, and then build it in 6 turns in JH.
This allows to switch to Emancipation on the last turn and we should complete it before HC. And another Trooper isn't bad either!
How about building Taj for 5 turns first, allowing SdL to finish the Lab... Then swap builds and swap back?

No, I think I am right ;)

I stopped building wealth in LM, and we went to -117.
We are building gold in IT as well for 20 gold and LM for 13 gold.
I think you stopped IT, but didnt stop LM. -130 I just checked!

For the order, there's no difference, though?! We get no bonuses for either build, no extra-multipliers for overflow, ...?
True but I was concerned about the overflow from Obs, 8 hammers overflow could upset the order...
Nope ... we have some units in BT, and 1 XBow and 2 Phalanxes in SdL. All other cities only have 1 garrison-unit.

Don't you like the BT-XBow being our Medic?
Well if we are going for 2 stacks we might want 2 medics ?? Or am I beeing overly cautious?

ChrisFromLux

May 13, 2009, 08:38 AM

How about building Taj for 5 turns first, allowing SdL to finish the Lab... Then swap builds and swap back?

That's also a good possibility; but I think I prefer an extra Trooper. Could mean faster conquest = more cities out of revolt faster ... could outweight the delaying of the Lab for 2 turns?!

We are building gold in IT as well for 20 gold and LM for 13 gold.
I think you stopped IT, but didnt stop LM. -130 I just checked!

Didn't I see that? OK, but it won't change ... it will still work out :)

Sleepless

May 13, 2009, 08:53 AM

I'm back with internet/civ access and have managed to read through most of what I missed. Not sure how much went in though. :)

Just a short point about HC building the Taj. Remember with the AI era build bonus he will be able to build it quicker than you think. I'm not sure what the extra is without going into some of the threads I read a while back but it will be quicker than just working from the OR + Indus + Forge bonus by how much though :dunno:.

haphazard1

May 13, 2009, 11:11 AM

Good to hear from you again, Sleepless. I hope you have been having a great time on your vacation. :goodjob:

I like Chris' idea of building one more para out of JH, then the Taj to completion. That should take 8 turns, which should get it done before HC could finish it even with some AI building bonus.

Globe takes how long in SdL? :confused: 58 hammers per turn from SdL? Did someone build a factory and power plant there when I was not looking? I am confused. :confused:

Edit: Forgot to ask. Sleepless, when would you like to be added back to the roster? I am still waiting on a reply from Mastiff as well. Currently Chris is up and I am on deck; should I add you after me? Or if you want to be the on-deck player, just let me know. Whatever fits your schedule -- I know things are often frantically busy for a couple days after getting back from vacation.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 13, 2009, 12:08 PM

Just slot me in anywhere, Hap...

And I am worried about getting beat to the Taj. It would be a MAJOR setback... moreso than have a 1 turn revolt for emancipation. I'm simply not in favor of waiting any longer.

MF

KaleLambiek

May 13, 2009, 12:46 PM

Settled GS vs Academy vs Bulbing
9 + 250% = 31.5 for a settled rep-GS, but at some point we lose Rep, reducing it to 21 beakers per turn.

Would it be smarter to get an Academy in BT/GV where we are going to cottage everything...
10 cottages in BT = 70 commerce + 12 traderoutes + 3 riverside + 4 coastal + Harbor? = 90 commerce easy +50% = 45 beakers over the 21 (or 31) for a settled GS.
There is a tradeoff offcourse in, we dont get the 1 hammer AND BT/GV is not yet at 70 commerce. We would want it at 21 / 50% = 42 total commerce to break even with a non-rep-settled-GS.
Or 31 / 50% = 62 commerce to break even with a rep-settled-GS

Also a settled GS vs Bulbing ~1250 beakers, non-rep 59 turns, rep 39 turns. We are getting close to the point (turn ~150) where settling just will not pay of anymore.

I think we are still good on this GS beeing settled, but we need to make this consideration for each GS we get.

National wonders
Heroic Epic
Will to in Sleeps (I think), do we want it at all? Or? Should pay off quickly...
In particular if we are going to add some tanks at some point to keep getting gold plunder from attacking backwards WK and taking out Cuzco (owning MoM) to start our 9-turn-end-game-GA-s
HE is a marble wonder and we could maybe decide we delay it a few turns to stick in a few turns build into it at SdL/JH before sending it to Sleeps
NOTE: We have Literature, but lack a 10xp unit to build it

National Epic
CiB, we need to consider timing on this I think?
Would be nice to get some non-build gold from this. Timing it so that we dont waste to many GPP at the end of the game.
Would be a shame to have 900 gpp accumulated in any City when the game ends. Then to need 1000 gpp for the next GPP to be born.
We might as well have delayed NE (if this is CiB) some turns and get marbelized-gold from non-building NE all over the place.

National Park
CiB will get it, getting it up and getting the preserves ready JIT. Atleast we will want 5 preserves up I think at the time it finishes....
1 Engineer
3 Scientists
1 Priest

Westpoint
We dont need, I think? With Troopers fighting LBs, Tanks fighting Muskets... who cares about a few XP?

Hermitage
We dont need, I think? Baring potential Marbelized-gold building. We will have to get atleast 2 full non-builds to make this profitable!

Globe Theatre
Perhaps in SdL, we need to think about GT in SdL vs putting Ironworks there...

Ironworks
This needs heavy considering, where do we put this? SdL for a nice bonus there, but this means no Globe.
Other alternative is to stick it in Sleeps for an Ultra unit pump and still have a strong space-part-production-city.
What are Ironworks worthy cities? Just of the top of my mind...
- Babylon
- Dur K.
- JH
- Sleeps
- SdL

I am not considering any Joao cities eventhough I am pretty sure we want to assimilate them. Getting them out of revolt and building Ironworks is going to take to long I think.

Rushmore
If we want to keep waring for the plunder a given to build it someplace at some point.
No particular place but anywhere that has surplus hammers, possibly in conjunction with IW?

Shooting GPs
Lets try and take a shot at how many GPs we are going to be generating.
Lets assume we will have a constant of 5 specialists in LM and are aiming for 3 GAs, 1 six turn Taj GA and 2 nine turn-near-end-game-MoM-enhanced GAs
At 30gpp per turn and 45 gpp per turn during GAs LM will generate 2190 gpp by turn 190, using this GP to be born at turn 190 to start a GA.
Running 5 specialists, this will add 420gpp by turn 200.

With 2 settled GP, a shrine, 2 settled GS and an academy we are working on GP #7, which needs 469 GPP.
Assume we start a GA 8 turns from now (2 turns delayed as per Chris' suggestion)
We finish NP on turn 140 (not done detailed looking at this) and get 5 free GPP-specialists in CiB, then up it to 6 by turn 160, Build NE 170 (very late). Then up to 7 on turn 180.

Now if we try to generate a GM from FH, we do this by running 4 Merchants from turn 128. After growing 2 more pop.
We would have to run 4 merchants up to turn 155, i.e. keep CoL and not addopt Emancipation. We would have to run 9 merchants from turn 128 thru turn 137 to get a GM in time before swapping out of CoL = Undoable.
So if we want a merchant we have to build a Market and Grocer there to keep running 4 merchants.

As things stand as per above we will get
1 GP turn 125 from LM (this one)
1 GP turn 137 out of JH (the next)
1 GP turn 142 LM
1 GP turn 158 CiB
1 GP turn 169 LM
1 GP turn 178 CiB
1 GP turn 191 CiB << 1 turn short of 190>>
1 GP turn 200 LM
==
8 GPs, counting the one on turn 200 which should be to late.
LM we cannot do much, but we have some spare room to delay the GPP there a little. CiB we need to push to get some more GPP somehow (earlier NP, NE and/or more specialists slots sooner).

Not counting the last 2 GPs (totaling 6) and if we want 2 Golden ages (3GPs) we have 3 GPs to spare, to do as we see fit... Or triger another golden age...

Note:
JH gets close-ish to generating a (random) GP sometimes... Like:
682/938 on 178
923/1072 on 191
While I didnt add any more GPP beyond the Taj, adding in SoL (turn 150, which is late) will have JH spawn a GP turn 188, delaying the CiB GP from 191 to 192.
Seeing as we will probably add more wonders like Holywood, R&R, Eifel, Gorge to JH it is likely this GP will happen for a 'bonus' GP.
Babylon has quite a few wonders too, but I didnt add that as it is hard/impossible to gage at this time when it will come out of revolt.

Please find the Excel I made for these calculations attached and please check if I made any mistakes, there are bound to be :(

Some MM stuff about the save/ suggestions for Chris
LM
Do we want the extra engineer?? We have some room on LM to let it grow now (and work the to be build/finished cottages, as well as some coast?) without causing problems on the GPs beeing born... Assuming turn 200 is to late anyways
We are currently NOT running this engineer, in fact if we just run 4 all the rest of the game we still get the total of 7 GPs but in a different order.
Actually getting #7 from CiB on turn 189, instead of 191.

Sleeps
We have a farm to work, should we work the farm over the Plains preserve?
Also do we want a worker around Sleeps to farm a bit to stay ahead of the growth?? Didnt check the planning for a worker near Sleeps... so it may already be in the planning.

SdL
We need to fire the engineer it is running.

BT
Work the plains farm instead of the plains forest... Once the cottage finishes... maybe we swap back?

TR
With advent of Biology swap the lakes to the farms if the farms are not worked yet. Swapping commerce for food = more commerce but delayed a little.

GV
Work the Grass cottage over the Grass forest
On builds of GV, a 80h courthouse for 4gpt saved (including inflation) or a 30h library for +3 beakers (soon to be more).

Dur K.
Change the Artists to Merchants, dont know if this really matters?

On workers
Einstein and Emmet are building cottages... We may want some (short term) happyness... Do we need a preserve or a cottage?

namliaM
Road on the hill to FH first then to TR, save a worker turn with nothing lost.

Thorrez
What about windmilling the Grass (jungle) hill?? Riverside plains hill goes first ofcourse, but then the Grass hill I think?

Just a short point about HC building the Taj. Remember with the AI era build bonus he will be able to build it quicker than you think.

I know the AI get bonuses, considerable bonuses at that for building units/buildings. I also know that the same bonus DOESN’T apply to wonders. They do get a bonus, but this bonus on wonders is much lower.

At 17 base hammers, +Buro + OR + Forge + Industrious = +50 + 25 + 25 + 50 = 42 hammers a turn
+10%? Monarch/era bonus? 46 hammers a turn is still 10+ turns
469 / 46 = 10.19 or 10 turns 9 hammers
We know he can only be building it 1 turn maximum! Due to him finishing Kwatz, so at 10 turns – 1 leaves us 9 turns to build it.
2 turns Para + 6 turns build = 8 turns, i.e. we have 1 turn still to spare!

@Chris
The start the Taj now is also to ensure the Taj… If the GM does find that HC has been mining heavily he is getting more base hammers = gets Taj done earlier… Getting some turns in already ensures we can “stay ahead of the curve” if we need to be.
Then again we “need” to delay the Taj 2 turns to get what we want too…. But I didn’t check that (yet)

We will get 18 base commerce in JH alone at +250% is 63 beakers * 120% = 75 extra beakers per turn (GA)
Also we get +14 beakers (FR, 10% of 120 commerce * 120%) from JH alone for a total of (easy) 89 beakers extra per turn over 6 turns is almost an extra turn of research alone from JH.

Globe takes how long in SdL? :confused: 58 hammers per turn from SdL? Did someone build a factory and power plant there when I was not looking? I am confused. :confused:
LOL

Nope no power plant, no factory, but MARBLE is the magic you forget
26 base hammers or 25 if we retire the Engineer...
26 + 125% = 58
25 + 125% = 56

And Globe at only 201 hammers, thats 4 turns... Ofcourse we need 5 other theatres... which will need to be build/planned for... But Globe itself is not the problem
Theatres are cheap builds and good for 1 happy, so why not build them... There is just the question of, do we want Globe here... or IW or ??? See above.

And I am worried about getting beat to the Taj. It would be a MAJOR setback... moreso than have a 1 turn revolt for emancipation. I'm simply not in favor of waiting any longer.

:crazyeye: why worry? See above

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 13, 2009, 01:23 PM

:crazyeye: why worry? See above

I'm just like that...

Oh, and in my Wang Kon GOTM, I lost a 2nd religion by 1 turn, missed the GLib by 1 turn, and just got beat to Rock&Roll AND the SoL by 2 turns to the SAME AI! :mad:

I may be a bit jaded.

haphazard1

May 13, 2009, 07:35 PM

I will look over the GP numbers in more detail -- some interesting work there, Kale. :thumbsup:

Also a very good point about starting Taj, so that if our merchant arrives in Cuzco and sees more base hammers than we expected, we are still OK. Delays the para a bit, but that should be a very minor issue.

On Globe again...marble? :confused: Globe does not benefit from marble.

haphazard1

May 13, 2009, 09:52 PM

OK, quick organizational note: I have updated the roster at the start of the thread.

I have added Mastiff back into the rotation after me, and then Sleepless after Mastiff. So right now we have:

T125 - 1300 AD BC

ChrisFromLux - UP! to continue conquering Hammi
haphazard1 - on deck
Mastiff_of_Ar
Sleepless
KaleLambiek
JerichoHil - Smashed some barbs and began the Babylonian conquest

If anyone has any concerns, scheduling issues, etc., just let me know and I will adjust things as needed.

KaleLambiek

May 13, 2009, 10:50 PM

On Globe again...marble? :confused: Globe does not benefit from marble.

Erm... Ooooops, I allways have thought it was??!! :confused:

OK So that makes it a little longer at 8 turns LOL

KaleLambiek

May 13, 2009, 11:32 PM

LOL OK it seems my 10% guestimate was pretty good....
Made a game added HC Monarch difficulty gave him Nationalism Electricity.

Worldbuildered some Great Spies and settled them in his capitol for the spy points.
XXX = his cost
YYY = our cost
XXX YYY
150 167 Colossus
120 134 Great Lighthouse
092 100 Oracle
301 335 Itza
603 670 Cristo
482 536 Rock and Roll / Broadway

There seems to be a pretty consistant 10% discount in that... Though he was reluctant to build Taj for some reason?? ultimatly he did or tried to in a size 2 city with all 3 hammers per turn :lol:
It complies at 422 hammer cost

That makes it 422 / 40 = 10.55 or 10 turns + 22 hammers

Edit:
Also in my spreadsheet I have NP (guestimated) finishing on turn 139 to enable the specialists turn 140.
This is 11 turns after we get Biology or 14 turns from now. 201 / 16 = 12.56 turns or 12 turns 9 hammers.
So we are going to have to chop a little (out side of the BFC) to be able to make that target.
We will get the 9 hammers from overflow from the Observatory and Missionary builds, so we have to chop 16 hammers = 2 forests (I think)

National epic though I have finishing VERY late, turn 170. While it is a 6 turn build, this is a Marble wonder right?? Right!

Also I am running only 5 specialists as I dont know exactly when we will get more specialist slots.
Theatre and Odeon both allow for 2 artists
Market/Grocer for 2 Merchants.

Then, I counted 5 slots, Priest, 3 Scientists, Engineer. But we can also get a Spy going at 6, not 5. So if we run full specialists, we are going to get some more GPP as well as the earlier NE.

All this though shouldnt have to dramatic an effect, but pull the GPs forward a little. In fact if you play with the spreadsheet a little you find that adding Specialists/gpp.
In fact if we have 8 specialists at turn 140 (the max), the effect is minimal in GPs. The biggest change is pulling the CiB GPs forward, while delaying the JH GP by 1 GP to turn 193. Which will move forwards a little due to us adding some more wonders in JH.

ChrisFromLux

May 14, 2009, 01:54 AM

Here is v1.1 of the pre-play-plan.
I plan to play 8 turns on friday evening ...

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- cancel Rice-gift to HC, and sell it instead
- try to renew the Fur-trade with Joao, to get his 2gold
- try to renew the deal with Shaka, once we can cancel it

Civics
- switch to Free Religion and Representation on the first turn of the Taj-Mahal-Golden-Age

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is kept for launching another Golden Age later

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -130:gold: = -390:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Trooper (2) (no delaying the Taj Mahal, see below!)
- LM: Temple (4) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Missionary > NP
- SdL: Lab (5) > Theatre (?) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
- IT: Lab
- BT: Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Courthouse (8 - chops) > Lib > Uni
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- Worker-movement supposes no tiles are precottaged
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, cottage grass-tiles
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides (but not the watermills)
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then cottage the open grass in LM
- Fearless / GV: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, preserve FH's jungles, ...???)
- Thorrez / TR: windmill and road the plain-hill and the grass-hill in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then farm around SS
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then road the last tile to FH

Military
- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then captures Opis, helped by the northern Trooper and the 2 new Troopers from JH and SS
- Babylon-Troopers will move South > West
- Opis-Troopers will move North > West, except if the Babylon-Troopers should encounter difficulties and need help

Taj Mahal
- According to Kale's calculation, with his 17 base hammers + 150% = 42 hammers, +10% Monarch-bonus = 46 hammers/turn, Cuzco could complete it in 10 turns. We complete it in 8 turns, if inserting a Trooper, so this leaves a 2 turn margin (we play before HC; on the same turn = fast enough)
- But, what base-hammers would HC need to complete it himself in 8 turns, thus being faster than us?
469 / 8 = 59 hammers/turn needed. Taking away his Monarch-bonus, this is 54 modified hammers needed, which is only 22 base-hammers!!! :eek:
- That is only 5 more base-hammers needed!!! Imagine a settled GProphet, or an engineer, or a chop, or some overflow, or a whip, or a little error in our calculations, ... do we really want to risk our free Golden Age for 2 turns of building gold? I say NO!

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now

Here is v1.0 of the plan, and I should be able to play every day of the week, except maybe on friday evening. Will depend on when we reach consensus.
I plan to play 8 turns.

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment. (Does anybody remember/know when we last begged for money?)
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- I forgot to check if better ressource-trades are available :blush:

Civics
- no changes: Emancipation won't be accessible during my turnset, but very shortly after

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is settled in LM

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -117:gold: = -351:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Market (2) or Trooper (2) or Cristo (?), depending on the war and LM's GPerson
- LM: Temple (4) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Lab
- SdL: Lab (5) > Odeon (1) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
- IT: Lab
- BT: Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Courthouse (8)
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- @JH: are there any tiles that are already precottaged? There are no signs :(
- why is there a 'Farm'-sign 2S of GV? Not needed there, that tile will be cottaged!
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, cottage grass-tiles
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then cottage the open grass in LM
- Fearless / GV: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, ...???)
- Thorrez / TR: mine and road both plain-hills in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then join AG in JH
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then road the last tile to FH

Military
- @JH: can you give me some info on what units Hammurabi had and where they are? Maybe some screenshots? It's a bit hard to plan this war when I only know the 2 defenders in Opis and that 1 mace SW of Dur-K; Airships can't move either this turn, so I can't take a look before hitting the red button :(

- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then moves to the front
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops

- I hope to get more info from JH before playing, but after Babylon, I could imagine going after Opis, to get rid of that culture that hurts CIB and Dur-K, as well as our unit-movement (except airlifts and drops), and then move around clockwise or counter-clockwise through the other cities

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now

JerichoHill

May 14, 2009, 07:18 AM

Why are there two builds of TM if we are not delaying?

ChrisFromLux

May 14, 2009, 08:50 AM

Why are there two builds of TM if we are not delaying?

My mistake ... corrected above! :goodjob:

And *I* now suggest not delaying it ... the team has to approve first, though ;)

haphazard1

May 14, 2009, 11:25 AM

A couple points on the plan:

- Taj timing. If we do not delay, can we get Democracy in time for a swap to Emancipation on the final turn of the golden age? Having to take anarchy turn(s) later would be a significant negative.

What if we research for Democracy directly, delaying Biology and Corporation? We lose out a bit by delaying these useful techs, but compared to losing a full turn to anarchy?

- Workers. We are not doing nearly enough to get JH fully pre-cottaged. My calculations a while back about the benefit of cottages assumed we would have JH pre-cottaged, ready to go exactly as Emancipation is adopted. Obviously, that is an ideal and we will not manage that precisely. But every turn lost compared to the ideal means it takes longer for the empire-wide cottaging effort to pay off. Too many delays, and we will end up worse off than never cottaging at all.

I think we need to shift some of our workers from less-vital projects (pre-cottaging BT? Cottages at GV? Not nearly as important as getting JH ready!) to get cottages ready at JH. The plan has one full-time worker at JH, and another joining partway through the turnset. I think we need at least 4 workers full time, and even that is not going to be as many as we really need. If we plan to switch to Emancipation in 15 turns or less (depends on exact timing of Taj, Democracy), we are going to be losing hundreds and hundreds of beakers from delayed cottage growth at JH. :(

Perhaps we need to build another worker or two?

Sleepless

May 14, 2009, 11:28 AM

@haphazard1 I'm fine with the roster. :)

@ChrisfromLux :goodjob: on the plan. I agree with not delaying the Taj build. It would be better to delay it but not at the risk of losing the GAge.

@all I certainly think we should go into free religion but moving out of HR is going to stop us getting to friendly with HC. Not so much on what we can trade but he will trade monopoly techs at friendly, not before. On the other hand he isn't going to have a lot to trade anyway. :) This is where having the CR would be good. Change back to HR trade with a friendly HC and next turn change back again.

KaleLambiek

May 14, 2009, 11:34 AM

But, what base-hammers would HC need to complete it himself in 8 turns, thus being faster than us?
Actually its a little simpler but totaly different, the 10% discount is on total hammers needed. Not on hammers per turn.

Not 469, but 422 hammers are need to finish Taj.
422 / 40 = 10.55
422 / 42 = 10.04
422 / 46 = 9.17
422 / 52 = 8.11
422 / 60 = 7.03

So to finish inside of 9 turns we would need he would have to have ATLEAST 47 hammers per turn, 47 / 250% = 19 hammer per turn = 2 extra hammers.
The calculation is totaly different, but the outcome basicaly the same :(

do we really want to risk our free Golden Age for 2 turns of building gold?
I dont know... I am not sure how sure we can be of HC going back to back wonders, Kwatz > Taj

Which IMHO is highly unlikely... We can and should delay Taj IMHO

- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, preserve FH's jungles , ...???)
Things we need at FH:
- Windmills on the hills
- Watermill 1N of FH
- Jungle Preserves for happyness (if/when/while needed/applicable)

++ If we have the happy to support it and/or are not (specificaly) running Specialists (anymore) we can consdier adding Cottages on the grass and/or Workshops/mines.
Keeping 4 specialists beyond the first GP from FH is useless other than for GPT or BPT purpose.

The order of which improvement when, depends on the need at the time. With running CoL/4-5 Merchants we dont need much.
Once we go out of CoL (6+2+6 or 6+6 turns from now) we cannot run specialists anymore, unless we have specialist slots. Getting a library up for 2 scientists and an Odeon for 2 artists would be important.
So both windmills and watermills to add hammers will really help, Working Windmill/Watermill/pig/CC we get 6 hammers a turn.
Library at 30 hammers = 5 turns, we need the library before the GA ends so we can keep running 2 scientists.

If we can keep running 4 specialists GV will generate a GP for us by turn 155 or turn 161 depending on how many NP specialists we can and do run in CiB, which ultimatly means we get GP #8 (from JH) turn 193, which is moved forward a little by building more wonders there.
This MAY just arrive turn 190 if we can add a grand total of 70 or so extra GPP, 70/4 = 18 turns of an extra wonder "gpp-turns"
Assuming 18 turns of GA at the End-game starting roughly turn 181 thru 198.
SoL planned to finish (in my spreadsheet now) turn 150, building SoL earlier will get us some extra GPP.
Also having an additional wonder (gorge/R&R) by turn 180 will also serve to pull JH ahead to turn 190.

Running these 4 specialists (first Merchants during CoL/GA/Rep?) should give us roughly 33% chance for GM/GS/GA, assuming we build Library > Odeon to get the 4 specialist slots ASAP or JIT for the end of the GA.
Running these 4 specialists as Artists or Scienists would give us a 33/66% odds for which ever one we choose.
Running these 4 specialists as 2/2 Artists and Scientists and keeping it that way post GA will obviously give us 50/50 odds.
Still asuming we delay the Taj 2 turns, we have 6 + 2 + 6 turns for Lib > Odeon
At 60 + 53 hammers = 113 hammers / 2 (we get double speed on both right?) = 57
We have 5 turns of GA for +1 hammer on Mill and Pig = 6 total per turn = 30 hammers (assuming we dont have the watermill to work cause we are running specialists), leaving 27
27 / 4 = 7 turns
5 + 7 turns = 12 turns leaving us 2 turns to finish the Lighthouse, which is not enough :( But thats the way it is....
Running 5 specialists during the Golden Age gets us this GP turn 154...

I dont know if this earlier/extra GP is worth the effort though... Then again we have 7 "planned" GP still to come (including the one from LM next turn).
The GE from Fusion makes 8, the GSpy at communism if we want it and if its worth the few thousand beakers makes 9.
1 + 2 + 3 = 6 gps for 3 golden ages yet to come... Could we be intrested in 3 golden ages??

With 8 possibly 9 (extra GP from FH or Babylon?) or even 10 (GSpy) planned from now to end game (pre-turn 190 to be able to trigger a usefull GA) getting 6 GPs with 3 different ones at the end shouldnt be a problem??
Even if we get a GM (for trade obviously) from FH and settle the GS next turn leaves 7 GPs.
Having our last 27 turns in GA, assuming we capture MoM prior starting them just around turn 170-ish, sounds like a nice prospect :).
With ~20 cities benifiting from that GA = Lots of hammers for gold/Space part building == Lots of commerce for lots of beakers === More GPP ==== Fly to spacial heaven :D

Perhaps purposely going for a GM in LM by running 4 merchants there (with Market/Grocer already going there) to go looking for a GM as well as getting some added GPT to support us thru the last build of infra building, as well as generating the GM for a second trade mission for more gold :).
Which would maybe put preference in FH towards a Scientist or Artist instead??

A few more comments:
GV
How about Temple > Courthouse??
If we are spreading Confu there, lets take advantage :)

SdL
Lab > Theatre> MIssionary??
Wont fit, if you want a missionary it has to come before the theatre... right after the lab. Lab is 5 turns with Taj 6.
Retire the Engineer!

LM
Temple > Grocer > Bank
I know this costs us a few GPT, however this enables us to purposely get a GM from LM if we want (see above)

- cancel Rice-gift to HC, and sell it instead
Erm, HC is gifting this to us :)
Sell him our corn instead

- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
I suggest we use the C1 XBow in TR to kill the bowman, with any luck 2 xp and another medic :)
The Xbow from SdL can then be the MP for TR

Thinking about attack order, AI Capitols are usually a big pile of units. Do we want to go after that pile with 4/5/6 Para's??
Perhaps taking on Sippar first then Babylon with a bigger force is the smart thing to do.. Despite SoZ, screw SoZ! So we get a few extra WW points... so what?
We go via Sippar first we finish the war quicker, I think?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 14, 2009, 02:13 PM

Erm... Ooooops, I allways have thought it was??!! :confused:

OK So that makes it a little longer at 8 turns LOL

No worries Kale! In fact, now I know you're a human and not a computer that spits out awesome stats, figures, and long posts! :lol:

It's great having you and Sleepless aboard!

haphazard1

May 14, 2009, 07:37 PM

No worries Kale! In fact, now I know you're a human and not a computer that spits out awesome stats, figures, and long posts! :lol:

It's great having you and Sleepless aboard!

I second this -- having both of you on the team has been great, and has boosted our overall level of play -- and fun -- significantly. :goodjob:

Will it be enough to get us a laurel? We shall see. :king: But I have definitely had a great time so far as a member of this version of the Misfits.

And there is certainly nothing wrong with long posts! :lol: :crazyeye: :lol:

haphazard1

May 14, 2009, 10:28 PM

OK, catching up on a post from yesterday by Kale:

Settled GS vs Academy vs Bulbing
9 + 250% = 31.5 for a settled rep-GS, but at some point we lose Rep, reducing it to 21 beakers per turn.

Presumably we keep Rep until we have at least a few towns, give or take possible timing effects to avoid anarchy when we swap to US + FS. So that gives us the time from when we adopt Rep until we switch to Emancipation -- call it 5 turns (first to last turn of the Taj golden age) if we do not delay the Taj and go straight for Democracy -- plus the 23 turn Emancipation-boosted cottages take to become towns. So Rep for at least 28 turns, starting from say 6 turns from now (no delay on Taj) gives us Rep from T131 through T159. If we hit our T195 target, that means Rep for about 44% of the remaining turns. So settled in JH should be worth 21 + (44% of 10.5) = a bit over 25.5 bpt averaged.

Would it be smarter to get an Academy in BT/GV where we are going to cottage everything...
10 cottages in BT = 70 commerce + 12 traderoutes + 3 riverside + 4 coastal + Harbor? = 90 commerce easy +50% = 45 beakers over the 21 (or 31) for a settled GS.
There is a tradeoff offcourse in, we dont get the 1 hammer AND BT/GV is not yet at 70 commerce. We would want it at 21 / 50% = 42 total commerce to break even with a non-rep-settled-GS.
Or 31 / 50% = 62 commerce to break even with a rep-settled-GS

Right about 50 or 51 commerce to beat the averaged settled in JH. Given that those cottages have not even started growing yet, this next GS (if it is a GS) definitely gives more in JH. Later, we will need to calculate again, as the prime Rep turns will be past and the cottages more mature. But by that time, bulbing may be better, as you mention next.

Also a settled GS vs Bulbing ~1250 beakers, non-rep 59 turns, rep 39 turns. We are getting close to the point (turn ~150) where settling just will not pay of anymore.

Assuming the GS will bulb something useful, of course. If we leave Fission until later, that should not be a big issue.

Compared to academy in BT or GV...I suspect bulbing will pay off more by the time the cottages are mature enough to beat the settle-in-JH option. But we will see.

I think we are still good on this GS beeing settled, but we need to make this consideration for each GS we get.

:agree:

National wonders
Heroic Epic
Will to in Sleeps (I think), do we want it at all? Or? Should pay off quickly...
In particular if we are going to add some tanks at some point to keep getting gold plunder from attacking backwards WK and taking out Cuzco (owning MoM) to start our 9-turn-end-game-GA-s
HE is a marble wonder and we could maybe decide we delay it a few turns to stick in a few turns build into it at SdL/JH before sending it to Sleeps
NOTE: We have Literature, but lack a 10xp unit to build it

Unless we are rather unfortunate, we should be able to get a 10 XP para out of the war with Hammi. If we make a point of using our higher XP units to push for promotions, we should make it easily.

At what point does building a bunch of tanks and transports to take cities end up being less efficient than just building gold, though? There would also be maintenance costs for units outside our borders, and for captured cities (at least until we unloaded them on allies or colonies). I am not sure whether the overall result would be favorable.

Joao is going to be a big question as well. We are seeing costs go up a bunch just from Dur-Kur, which actually has a courthouse. Will we really want Joao's cities if they cost that much?

Also, there is timing. It is T125 now. Finishing Hammi will take another 15-20 turns or so, then maybe a bit more to position and prepare for Joao. It could be T150 before we even declare on him. Can we actually get enough value out of his cities in 45 turns to justify the costs? Given time to come out of anarchy, his core cities would be fully ours for probably less than 35 turns. That is not a lot of time to get value from cities which need some buildings rebuilt and tiles improved.

Anyway, getting back to the HE, it will pay off if we actually do build tanks. With marble it is so cheap just a few tanks will put us ahead. I am just not sure it will be worthwhile to build those tanks.

National Epic
CiB, we need to consider timing on this I think?
Would be nice to get some non-build gold from this. Timing it so that we dont waste to many GPP at the end of the game.
Would be a shame to have 900 gpp accumulated in any City when the game ends. Then to need 1000 gpp for the next GPP to be born.
We might as well have delayed NE (if this is CiB) some turns and get marbelized-gold from non-building NE all over the place.

A lot depends on whether we can get all 8 NP specialists as real specialists and not just citizens. If we can, I think getting the NE done ASAP will be a good thing. We might want to stop running specialists in another city for a while, or some other kind of shift in GP production. Having the NE up early gives us more flexibility later.

That said, getting some non-build gold would be handy here. In fact, we can do this anytime (as long as the non-build city has a library already). If we do not delay the Taj, we can instead put non-build hammers into NE. Any town which is free, get some hammers going in.

National Park
CiB will get it, getting it up and getting the preserves ready JIT. Atleast we will want 5 preserves up I think at the time it finishes....
1 Engineer
3 Scientists
1 Priest

I think we want all the preserves finished ASAP -- why waste specialists? Even if we can not run "real" specialists immediately, the citizens will give us a few hammers to finish buildings faster. We can add a couple artist slots from a cheap creative theater very quickly, and then merchant slots if we build a market. So let's finish those preserves ASAP.

Also, if we do not get all those specialists, we lose still more beakers compared to the NP-in-JH scenario. Pre-cottaging not ready, not getting all the NP benefit...I am beginning to wonder if we will actually come out ahead by cottaging.

Westpoint
We dont need, I think? With Troopers fighting LBs, Tanks fighting Muskets... who cares about a few XP?

:agree: Also, where would we get the level 6 unit? The Hammi war should get us someone to unlock the HE, but this? Also, very expensive without stone.

Hermitage
We dont need, I think? Baring potential Marbelized-gold building. We will have to get atleast 2 full non-builds to make this profitable!

It is even worse than this, if our overall gold:beaker ratio stays at 2:1. With forges shifting the cost to 4/9, two full non-builds only gives us 2x gold for 1.33x hammers.

Globe Theatre
Perhaps in SdL, we need to think about GT in SdL vs putting Ironworks there...

Is SdL going to end up with more hammers overall than Sleeps, or JH for that matter? Babylon? Dur-Kur with a levee? GT in SdL looks pretty good, if we need the happiness at all.

Ironworks
This needs heavy considering, where do we put this? SdL for a nice bonus there, but this means no Globe.
Other alternative is to stick it in Sleeps for an Ultra unit pump and still have a strong space-part-production-city.
What are Ironworks worthy cities? Just of the top of my mind...
- Babylon
- Dur K.
- JH
- Sleeps
- SdL

With no NP in JH, why not put it there? No Bur bonus, but still pretty good. Sleeps works well too, especially if we do not need to pump units. Have to wait and see about Babylon and Dur Kur.

I am not considering any Joao cities eventhough I am pretty sure we want to assimilate them. Getting them out of revolt and building Ironworks is going to take to long I think.

Much too long, I think. I am far from convinced we want Joao's cities, although we might run them over for quick cash and then dump them as a colony or back to a vassalized Joao.

Wish we knew where aluminum was. :( I have this ugly suspicion that it will be either at the very southern end of Joao's lands, or not on our land mass at all. Since this is a space race by definition, Gyathaar can do something especially nasty with the wonder mineral. We could take the aluminum as our one forced tribute item from Joao, if it is the former case.

Rushmore
If we want to keep waring for the plunder a given to build it someplace at some point.
No particular place but anywhere that has surplus hammers, possibly in conjunction with IW?

Whatever is building IW will have plenty to do without worrying about Rushmore. I am not sure we need this at all, although I guess we see how bad the WW gets during the Hammi conquest. Better to just build gold than Rushmore, I am thinking.

Shooting GPs
Lets try and take a shot at how many GPs we are going to be generating.
Lets assume we will have a constant of 5 specialists in LM and are aiming for 3 GAs, 1 six turn Taj GA and 2 nine turn-near-end-game-MoM-enhanced GAs
At 30gpp per turn and 45 gpp per turn during GAs LM will generate 2190 gpp by turn 190, using this GP to be born at turn 190 to start a GA.
Running 5 specialists, this will add 420gpp by turn 200.

OK, this seems reasonable for LM.

With 2 settled GP, a shrine, 2 settled GS and an academy we are working on GP #7, which needs 469 GPP.
Assume we start a GA 8 turns from now (2 turns delayed as per Chris' suggestion)
We finish NP on turn 140 (not done detailed looking at this) and get 5 free GPP-specialists in CiB, then up it to 6 by turn 160, Build NE 170 (very late). Then up to 7 on turn 180.

We really need the NP and NE done as early as possible, and all preserves as well. Compared to the GPP we could get from NP in JH, this is losing hundreds of GPP and also hundreds of beakers. I really feel that we have to adjust plans at CiB -- these losses are just too large to be acceptable. :( We must accelerate things here.

Now if we try to generate a GM from FH, we do this by running 4 Merchants from turn 128. After growing 2 more pop.
We would have to run 4 merchants up to turn 155, i.e. keep CoL and not addopt Emancipation. We would have to run 9 merchants from turn 128 thru turn 137 to get a GM in time before swapping out of CoL = Undoable.
So if we want a merchant we have to build a Market and Grocer there to keep running 4 merchants.

We can mix in a cheap library and/or theater to keep the GPP rate up until the merchant slots are available, at the cost of mixing our gene pools. For golden age fodder, some mixing does not hurt us much unless we get very unlucky.

As things stand as per above we will get
1 GP turn 125 from LM (this one)
1 GP turn 137 out of JH (the next)
1 GP turn 142 LM
1 GP turn 158 CiB
1 GP turn 169 LM
1 GP turn 178 CiB
1 GP turn 191 CiB << 1 turn short of 190>>
1 GP turn 200 LM
==
8 GPs, counting the one on turn 200 which should be to late.

What are the GPP values for each GP? (I can not open the spreadsheet right now on this machine.) I can never remember when the GPP cost starts going up in bigger increments.

LM we cannot do much, but we have some spare room to delay the GPP there a little. CiB we need to push to get some more GPP somehow (earlier NP, NE and/or more specialists slots sooner).

Emphatically agree on CiB -- more sooner!

Not counting the last 2 GPs (totaling 6) and if we want 2 Golden ages (3GPs) we have 3 GPs to spare, to do as we see fit... Or triger another golden age...

Assuming we get a GS for the first from LM, I think we pretty clearly get good value from settling in JH. And maybe we get a GE or two, which will have other uses than golden ages (Cristo, Three Gorges, ??). So two GP-driven golden ages is probably a good target.

Note:
JH gets close-ish to generating a (random) GP sometimes... Like:
682/938 on 178
923/1072 on 191
While I didnt add any more GPP beyond the Taj, adding in SoL (turn 150, which is late) will have JH spawn a GP turn 188, delaying the CiB GP from 191 to 192.
Seeing as we will probably add more wonders like Holywood, R&R, Eifel, Gorge to JH it is likely this GP will happen for a 'bonus' GP.
Babylon has quite a few wonders too, but I didnt add that as it is hard/impossible to gage at this time when it will come out of revolt.

Please find the Excel I made for these calculations attached and please check if I made any mistakes, there are bound to be :(

I will try to take a look at the Excel tomorrow on my other machine. Very nice work on this, Kale! :thumbsup: Gives us a much clearer idea on just what we can expect, and where we can aim to nudge things a little. :)

KaleLambiek

May 15, 2009, 12:13 AM

I dont think I responded to the workers thing... Perhaps we can pull all workers but 1 per city to CiB/JH?? or even Just all?
A cottage is 5 turns on a forest tile + 1 to move there, so 6 turns per cottage.
If we pull all workers to CiB/JH, GV and BT can each build a worker in 3 and 2 turns to add to our worker force... But ... at some point workers are going to be idle...
Then again we have a lot of cottages to build and rails comming up as well as -some- mining and re-shaping of former babylon lands.... Perhaps we should get the 2 workers from BT and GV?

Edit:
Perhaps even an extra worker out of IT in 2 turns ??

At what point does building a bunch of tanks and transports to take cities end up being less efficient than just building gold, though? There would also be maintenance costs for units outside our borders, and for captured cities (at least until we unloaded them on allies or colonies). I am not sure whether the overall result would be favorable.
At the very least I think we will conquer WK, who is so backwards we can probably do it with just 4 troopers and 4 tanks... There well not be a stopping point IMHO. As long as our stack of 10 troopers and 10 tanks (or something) is enough we just keep going. 100+ gold = 100+ gold, even if we incure 90 cost to get the 100 gold... that is still ++ and faster space.

That is not a lot of time to get value from cities which need some buildings rebuilt and tiles improved.
Tiles improved, probably.... but buildings, not much... If they can pay (mostly) for themselves building outright gold AND supply some additional beakers as well as pillage gold... I dont think there is a point to doing anything there... We have to see though...
Cost do go up in bumps, in my experience, I think we just crossed one of them and should have a steadier slope going up. FP in Babylon will help SP will help AND offcourse -someone- WILL build Versailles for us somewhere :D

Also we are paying 16gpt (including inflation) right now in unit cost (disband the scout??) this will go up a little more, but then go down as we get more population to support the units AND probably lose a couple. Costs will come -relatively- down considerably in the (near) future.

Anyway, getting back to the HE, it will pay off if we actually do build tanks. With marble it is so cheap just a few tanks will put us ahead. I am just not sure it will be worthwhile to build those tanks.
Even a few troopers, I think tanks are a MUST

If we do not delay the Taj,
Not only can we delay the Taj, we also NEED the gold. Every 2 turns we build it in SdL = 1 turn at 100% (not quite but close)
116 gold for 2 turns build running at -130. ~90%
At break even we make 476 beakers, while at 100% 753. This gap will grow but the contribution of 2 turns non-build will drop with adding costs.

90% * (753 - 476) = 250 beakers.
64 hammers = 250 beakers 1:4 conversion.... Ofcourse this works with any marble wonder (like Versailles or NE) but Taj we know will finish soon (by us) Versailles we dont... and we WILL need that cash at some point.

It is even worse than this, if our overall gold:beaker ratio stays at 2:1. With forges shifting the cost to 4/9, two full non-builds only gives us 2x gold for 1.33x hammers.
Since we normaly wouldnt build it we lose out on 201 / 2.25 * 1.25 = 112 hammers/gold for actually building it at some point someplace.
The cost of the first full non-build at 199 hammers / 2.25 * 1.25 = 111 hammers/gold
The cost of the second full non-build another 111 hammers/gold.

Cost: 112 + 111 + 111 = 334 gold
Gain: 199 + 199 = 398 gold
Yes delayed, but 2 full non-builds geets us 64 gold
3: 445 597 gain: 152 << 1 turn at 100% >>
4: 556 796 gain: 240
5: 667 995 gain: 328 << 2 turns at 100% >>

With factories all over, the cost of building it is 121 gold, and a non build 120 gold.
361 gold cost with 2 nonbuilds for 398 gain. Still a gain overall. And with more non-builds, more gain :)

The biggest challange will be management of the queues, we cannot let it finish.
The ultimate challange is going to be 'getting it right' getting the most out of this gold building while not waiting to long and having 10.000 gold sitting in the bank end of the game.

Is SdL going to end up with more hammers overall than Sleeps, or JH for that matter? Babylon? Dur-Kur with a levee? GT in SdL looks pretty good, if we need the happiness at all.
We dont need the happiness... anywhere I think... It would add say 4 hammers/4commerce to SdL because of working the Ocean's, which will otherwize likely go unworked.

Or we can use GT same as Hermitage, not really something we prioritize building... but mainly use as wide spread gold builder.

With no NP in JH, why not put it there? No Bur bonus, but still pretty good. Sleeps works well too, especially if we do not need to pump units. Have to wait and see about Babylon and Dur Kur.
IMHO our only true blue game long production city is going to be sleeps. JH/Dur K./Babylon all will atleast have some commerce needs... Sleeps is 100% all production and to me seems to be the logical place... but we have some time on this before we reach steel...

Much too long, I think. I am far from convinced we want Joao's cities, although we might run them over for quick cash and then dump them as a colony or back to a vassalized Joao.

If Joao ends up having Aluminium AND building Versailles, he is SO dead!

We can mix in a cheap library and/or theater to keep the GPP rate up until the merchant slots are available, at the cost of mixing our gene pools. For golden age fodder, some mixing does not hurt us much unless we get very unlucky.
This requires building Market/Grocer at 100 hammers each.
With FH at 4/6/8 hammers thats going to take WAY to long and WAY beyond the GP beeing born... Thats my point... The Market/grocer would be build to get a GM, which we will never get. No market, no grocer here....
I think we should go for either a Artist or a Scientist here. Convert LM to a GM.

What are the GPP values for each GP? (I can not open the spreadsheet right now on this machine.) I can never remember when the GPP cost starts going up in bigger increments.
67 gpp for each GP born, then double that for anything over 10 or is it #10 already? I always forget if its #10 or #11 that gets the added cost. I used these cost in the spreadheet:
01 0067
02 0134
03 0201
04 0268
05 0335
06 0402
07 0469
08 0536
09 0603
10 0670
11 0804
12 0938
13 1072
14 1206
15 1340
16 1474
17 1608

Emphatically agree on CiB -- more sooner!
I would like to stress that the numbers for CiB I used on the GPP calculations are low estimates... Just to see what we can roughly get by end game. I would love to see NP/NE up in 2 turns from now, including all preserves... but that is just not realistic.
So I went with something we KNOW we NOW have or can have... Anything we improve over that is good.

Assuming we get a GS for the first from LM, I think we pretty clearly get good value from settling in JH. And maybe we get a GE or two, which will have other uses than golden ages (Cristo, Three Gorges, ??). So two GP-driven golden ages is probably a good target.
I wouldnt baulk at a GE now, to rush Christo

I will try to take a look at the Excel tomorrow on my other machine. Very nice work on this, Kale! :thumbsup: Gives us a much clearer idea on just what we can expect, and where we can aim to nudge things a little. :)
It is not the most user friendly spreadsheet though :( it needs a lot of manual work in particular on JH with the wonders :(

I will see if I can improve on it a little.

The big conclusion for me at this time from the spreadsheet is we can expect about 14/15 total GPs (not including the free ones at Communism/Fusion).
That is just about the hard cap, even if we get 8 specialists from NP immediatly AND build NP/NE back to back we still have only 16 GPs, yes one extra... but only just... and right now projected at turn 197 from JH.
About 200 GPP short of turn 190, for the moment I am presuming that any GP born post turn 190 is essentially useless.

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 12:30 AM

Taj timing. If we do not delay, can we get Democracy in time for a swap to Emancipation on the final turn of the golden age? Having to take anarchy turn(s) later would be a significant negative.

Good point; I always forget to check 1 aspect! :(

I'm not sure, but the overflow from the 3 first techs + the bonus from 5 turns of Golden Age should/could be enough to finally shave off 1 turn from a tech?!

But I cannot check this out now ...

What if we research for Democracy directly, delaying Biology and Corporation? We lose out a bit by delaying these useful techs, but compared to losing a full turn to anarchy?

If the above doesn't work out, delaying 1 of these 2 techs is a good idea. But we certainly shouldn't delay both techs?

Which one though?
- Biology = later NP in CIB = later GPeople
- Corporation = later free traderoute in all cities = less commerce
:(

Workers. We are not doing nearly enough to get JH fully pre-cottaged. My calculations a while back about the benefit of cottages assumed we would have JH pre-cottaged, ready to go exactly as Emancipation is adopted.
[...]
I think we need to shift some of our workers from less-vital projects

OK, I will take another look at the workers later ... and reply to the other posts as well

KaleLambiek

May 15, 2009, 12:36 AM

Which one though?
- Biology = later NP in CIB = later GPeople
- Corporation = later free traderoute in all cities = less commerce

NEITHER, we delay TAJ! No way HC build back to back wonders!
No way he has the hammers to beat us anyway... IMHO...

We have time to delay Taj by 2/4 even 6 turns I think...

I hope :hide:

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 01:21 AM

NEITHER, we delay TAJ! No way HC build back to back wonders!

Hmmm, risky ... but: No risk, no laurel!!!

What do others think?

We have time to delay Taj by 2/4 even 6 turns I think...

If we delay, we won't delay for more than 2 turns, though! Allows 1 extra Trooper and Democracy on time to switch to Emancipation on the last turn of the Golden Age.

I hope :hide:

Me too :king:

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 02:26 AM

OK, let's make v1.2 of the pre-play-plan, taking into account the recent suggestions, and planning to delay the Taj Mahal again :mischief:
(New changes in green, mostly: Taj Mahal, new workers and worker-assignments, as well as the attack on Babylon)

Depending on when the team finds the time to approve this (and especially the delay of the Taj Mahal, I will play today evening (~12 hours from now) or on Saturday morning (~24 hours from now, obviously) ...

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- sell Corn to HC, instead of the Rice he gives us :crazyeye:
- try to renew the Fur-trade with Joao, to get his 2gold
- try to renew the deal with Shaka, once we can cancel it

Civics
- switch to Free Religion and Representation on the first turn of the Taj-Mahal-Golden-Age

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment, except the Engineer in SdL
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is kept for launching another Golden Age later

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -130:gold: = -390:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Trooper (2) > Taj Mahal (6) > (if the team agrees on taking this risk!)
- LM: Temple (4) > Grocer (?) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Missionary > NP
- SdL: Taj Mahal (2) > Lab (5) > Missionary (the last one before switching out of OR), and retire the Engineer
- IT: Worker (2) > Lab
- BT: Worker (?) > Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Worker > Temple > Courthouse > Lib > Uni (= too much for my turnset, but exact timing will depend on chops)
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- Worker-movement supposes no tiles are precottaged
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, ship over to JH
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: help in JH
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then head off to JH
- Fearless / GV: head off to JH
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then help cottaging JH
- Thorrez / TR: windmill and road the plain-hill and the grass-hill in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then farm around SS
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then watermill N of FH
- new IT-worker: cottage grass-tiles
- new GV-worker: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- new BT-worker: precottage current tile, then the riversides (but not the watermills)

Military
- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned; C1-XBow from FH tries to kill the Bowman, to be promoted to 2nd Medic, if possible
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn, depending on the troops present in Babylon (needs intel first :(). If too much defense, they go for Sippar first
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then captures Opis, helped by the northern Trooper and the 2 new Troopers from JH and SS
- Babylon-Troopers will move South > West, if they went for Babylon. If they went for Sippar, they'll move to Babylon next
- Opis-Troopers will move North > West, except if Babylon was delayed. In this case, both stacks will join to take out Babylon

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now

Here is v1.1 of the pre-play-plan.
I plan to play 8 turns on friday evening ...

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- cancel Rice-gift to HC, and sell it instead
- try to renew the Fur-trade with Joao, to get his 2gold
- try to renew the deal with Shaka, once we can cancel it

Civics
- switch to Free Religion and Representation on the first turn of the Taj-Mahal-Golden-Age

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is kept for launching another Golden Age later

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -130:gold: = -390:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Trooper (2) (no delaying the Taj Mahal, see below!)
- LM: Temple (4) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Missionary > NP
- SdL: Lab (5) > Theatre (?) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
- IT: Lab
- BT: Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Courthouse (8 - chops) > Lib > Uni
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- Worker-movement supposes no tiles are precottaged
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, cottage grass-tiles
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides (but not the watermills)
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then cottage the open grass in LM
- Fearless / GV: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, preserve FH's jungles, ...???)
- Thorrez / TR: windmill and road the plain-hill and the grass-hill in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then farm around SS
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then road the last tile to FH

Military
- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then captures Opis, helped by the northern Trooper and the 2 new Troopers from JH and SS
- Babylon-Troopers will move South > West
- Opis-Troopers will move North > West, except if the Babylon-Troopers should encounter difficulties and need help

Taj Mahal
- According to Kale's calculation, with his 17 base hammers + 150% = 42 hammers, +10% Monarch-bonus = 46 hammers/turn, Cuzco could complete it in 10 turns. We complete it in 8 turns, if inserting a Trooper, so this leaves a 2 turn margin (we play before HC; on the same turn = fast enough)
- But, what base-hammers would HC need to complete it himself in 8 turns, thus being faster than us?
469 / 8 = 59 hammers/turn needed. Taking away his Monarch-bonus, this is 54 modified hammers needed, which is only 22 base-hammers!!! :eek:
- That is only 5 more base-hammers needed!!! Imagine a settled GProphet, or an engineer, or a chop, or some overflow, or a whip, or a little error in our calculations, ... do we really want to risk our free Golden Age for 2 turns of building gold? I say NO!

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now
Here is v1.0 of the plan, and I should be able to play every day of the week, except maybe on friday evening. Will depend on when we reach consensus.
I plan to play 8 turns.

Techs
- Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2)
- everything at 100%:science:

Diplomacy
- trade for techs that become available from HC, Stalin, Shaka or Joao
- gift them what they want
- sell them techs for at least 100:gold:. I think we should not sell them techs for every 20 or 30 gold they have available, except if we badly need it to keep running 100%, which we don't at the moment. (Does anybody remember/know when we last begged for money?)
- ignore Wang Kon
- no peace with Hammurabi
- I forgot to check if better ressource-trades are available :blush:

Civics
- no changes: Emancipation won't be accessible during my turnset, but very shortly after

Espionage
- shift everything to HC, to see his research again (needs 1 or 2 turns)
- then, keep HC's and WK's research visible, while shifting the rest to Shaka (3 / 3 /10 should work)

Great People
- keep all specialists assigned or non-assigned as they are at the moment
- new citizens in LM are turned into Scientists
- new citizens in FH are turned into Merchants
- GPerson from LM next turn: GS is settled in JH, GE is kept for building a wonder (Cristo?) and GP is settled in LM

Cities
- no wealth-building is planned; we will be able to keep the slider at 100% for the next 3 turns. 3 x -117:gold: = -351:gold:, but we have 540 in the treasury. Then, our Merchant executes his trademission in Cuzco!

- JH: Taj Mahal (6) > Market (2) or Trooper (2) or Cristo (?), depending on the war and LM's GPerson
- LM: Temple (4) > Bank
- SS: Trooper (4) > Trooper (4)
- CIB: Obs (1) > Lab
- SdL: Lab (5) > Odeon (1) > Missionaries (the last ones before switching out of OR)
- IT: Lab
- BT: Granary (2) > Forge
- TR: Forge (6) > Courthouse
- FH: Lighthouse
- GV: Courthouse (8)
- DK: revolt (5) > Granary

Workers
- @JH: are there any tiles that are already precottaged? There are no signs :(
- why is there a 'Farm'-sign 2S of GV? Not needed there, that tile will be cottaged!
- please note the difference below between "precottage" and "cottage" ;)

- Biff / IT: finish Camp, cottage grass-tiles
- AG / JH: precottage riverside-grass-preserves, then other grass-tiles
- Obama / CIB: preserves for National Park
- Worker / BT: precottage current tile, then the riversides
- Einstein / GV: cottage current tile, then join AG in JH
- E. Brown / GV: cottage current tile, then cottage the open grass in LM
- Fearless / GV: cottage 1S and 2S of GV
- namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then see what needs to be done (cottage or precottage somewhere, repair something, start roading/improving near Babylon, if safe, ...???)
- Thorrez / TR: mine and road both plain-hills in the west
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then join AG in JH
- DeLorean / FH: finish windmill, then road the last tile to FH

Military
- @JH: can you give me some info on what units Hammurabi had and where they are? Maybe some screenshots? It's a bit hard to plan this war when I only know the 2 defenders in Opis and that 1 mace SW of Dur-K; Airships can't move either this turn, so I can't take a look before hitting the red button :(

- XBow from SdL will head south to help killing Hammurabi's Bowman, while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
- Airships will be rebased to Dur-K
- XBow from BT will be promoted to Medic and sent to the war-front
- other BT-units stay there and kill possible barbs
- Missionary in GV spreads the faith, to exclude the last possibility of AP-problems. We have just enough votes to block a normal resolution without needing to defy, but a random spread to Joao, Stalin or Shaka could possibly change that. Take no risks!
- Trooper near the fort kills the XBow, then moves to the front
- SS-Trooper airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn
- Dur-K-Troopers move into the city next turn, then drop to Babylon on the following turn
- XBow and Mace near Dur-K move into the city as well, as garrison-troops

- I hope to get more info from JH before playing, but after Babylon, I could imagine going after Opis, to get rid of that culture that hurts CIB and Dur-K, as well as our unit-movement (except airlifts and drops), and then move around clockwise or counter-clockwise through the other cities

Stop Criteria
- nothing I can imagine right now

JerichoHill

May 15, 2009, 05:55 AM

On the Taj

Could we not get an airship over to HC's land? I guess not. That would have been useful.
We get a much bigger bonus if we delay Taj (we can switch civics again w/out penalty), so that saves 1 turn.

Why not directly research Demo and not delay Taj? We still get to switch civics? But that's a nasty digression of research, but we do want SoL correct?

Delaying is a big risk. I don't particularly like it. But, the numbers on the research turns do suggest that it would be a good move to delay 2 turns and hit Emancipation JIT.

Since I took a risk attacking a city last turnset, f*ck it. Risk it.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 15, 2009, 09:51 AM

I trust you guys! If you all think the risk is worth the reward, go for it...

No guts, no glory!

MF

haphazard1

May 15, 2009, 10:37 AM

I think we can risk 2 turns delay on Taj, so we can get the Emancipation swap on the final golden age turn without delaying Corp or Bio.

One suggestion, though: start the Taj immediately. Our GM will arrive in Cuzco in 3-4 turns and we will then have a better idea if we can afford the delay. If HC has more hammers then we thought, we are in position to still beat him to the wonder. If not, then we can stop the build for 2 turns for a para (while building 2 turns in SdL) before finishing.

Delays the para a bit, and a bit more micro for Chris to keep track of, but safer in case HC has put up workshops or otherwise gotten more visible base hammers.

Of course, he could pop a GE next turn and we would have no chance....

Otherwise, plan v1.2 looks good to me. Good luck, Chris! :goodjob:

KaleLambiek

May 15, 2009, 11:37 AM

OK New version of the spreadsheet AND a new more detailed look into the GP future.
CiB (3 GPs)
NP>NE back to back
Starting with 6 specialists Untill 4 turns after the NE finishes.
We only have Eng/Spy/Priest/3 Sci available.
Add 2 Artists... once Odeon is done or a scientist with the Lab or Engineer(s) with Factory

JH (2 GPs)
Assumed we add some wonders on (at the latest) turn...
133 Taj
150 SoL
160 R&R
180 Gorge (this should be WAY earlier)
Run 1 specialist (engineer or Scientist) throughout the game (or atleast untill turn 190), adding more wonders maybe we can fire that specialist at some point....

FH (1 GPs)
Run 4 specialists from turn 128 onwards, with exception of the GA when we run 5. Untill we get the GP, then workshops? Cottages?

LM (3 GPs)
Runs 4 specialists from now on, 6 during GA for 3 turns then 4 again for the rest of the game.

Look at the spreadsheet for details, this gets us 8 more (a total of 15) GPs from specialists.

One thing to notice is that -I think- we are not going to get a GM from CiB (no sence in a market there just for the specialist slots IMHO).
In order to have a good shot to get a GM -soonish- we will want to run Merchants in LM and/or FH
While in CoL we can run as many Merchants as we like, making sure to finish the Grocer by the end of the GA when we swap to Emancipation we can continue to run 4 merchants and get a 100% GM turn 141 from LM.
The idea then would be run 4 merchants for 4 turns, then up to 5 for 3.
4 turns of GA with 6 Merchants and then 4 for 3 turns and get the nearest 100% GM we can get. After that run 4 specialists to end game, with the posibility to run 0 specialists for 2 turns without problems... for +8 food per turn...

With some added cash beyond GM1, which we have now, we should be able to run 100% to that turn 141 GM.
Then we have another 1400+ gold from that GM :D, enabling us to run gold right up to ~ turn 148 or so?
For cash we can also trade/sell maps! Instead of selling tech... Have we sold our maps yet?? Or is that a nice way to get the gold that is currently available in the market??
We would need to bridge about 6/7/8 turns between GM1 money running out and GM2 money comming in. Thus at -150gpt on average... 8 * 150 = 1200 gold to be found 'someplace'.
Some 800+ of that gold will come from Hammy donating his cities, leaving 300+ to be found... by building (marbelized) gold or keeping average cost below 150 or drawing GPT/Gold from the AI.

In fact, given we want gold... and want GA's perhaps we should keep running Merchants in LM. This generate 12gpt and will ultimatly spawn a (unique) GM, regardless of other GPs we get this GM will be unique to be used for a GA (second or third GA).
LM is the only city where we
1) Have (almost) full control over what GP it makes
2) Can run Merchants in the Emancipation era

NOTE
If we stick NP into JH and build it ASAP (delaying Taj = 5 turns from now), staying in CoL... we will still have a total of 16 GPs (or 9 more).
BUT we can be pretty sure we can have 4 sequential GA's at the end. 9 GPs (mostly GS/GM I think) + GE from Fusion = 10.
This is possible to guarantee because in CoL we can run Scientist/Merchant/Artist as we see fit, thus we can guarantee 3 different GPs.
With NP in CiB and not running CoL we cannot really guarantee us getting any GP we are more relying on the RNG a little to get us different GPs... Which should happen (given the odds) but could also happen that we get 9 GS... 3 GAs should still be pretty much a guarantee, the 4th maybe not...

This though then means we cannot use another GM for a trade mission or settle a GS... as we need each and every GP for the GAs... Do we want to re-estimate this??
Is the -pretty much- guarantee 4th GA enough to beat out the cottages?? I dont know...
Does burning those GPs on a 4th GA even make sense??

Then building NE in LM instead of CiB by turn 153 (dont know if that is doable, or what the sacrifice for doing so would be -no grocer>bank for example-) we would get an additional GP for a total of 10 more GPs, This extra GP is basicaly icing on the cake on exactly turn 190, which may be to little to late anyways.

- new BT-worker: precottage current tile,
Huh??? New worker on the current tile ?? hehehe Cottage CC :D Would that make a 7 commerce CC or 8 commerce?? :crazyeye:
while still keeping both cities (TR and FH) garrisoned
Is that needed? I think we have some spare happy in TR?
Try and make the kill on the farm though... no sense in risking a jungle hill attack.
then captures Opis, helped by the northern Trooper and the 2 new Troopers from JH and SS
What happens to the Trooper that is currently Garison for Sleeps?? or is that regarded as "new trooper from Sleeps?"
(I hate the 2 letter short name personaly, WWII)
needs intel first
After rebasing to Dur K. I suggest a Zeppelin flight on the most western (left) mountain west of Dur K. (or east of Sippar) should reveal the entire southern area of Babylon/Sippar.
namliaM / GV: finish roads to TR and to FH (except the very last tile), then help cottaging JH
How important is this road?? Not very I think? Skip it in that case?
- J. Verne / TR: build road SE of TR (to be able to defend that southern farm from Hammi's Bowman, if needed), then farm around SS
Yes we need some farms there, but if Opis is gone perhaps the Preserves of CiB are more important??
Also with the C1 Xbow moving out of TR, no need for the SE road. Have him build 1 road on the flood plain north of TR instead of namliaM, then head north?
How about that??
- new BT-worker: precottage current tile, then the riversides (but not the watermills)
Precottaging only makes sense on previously otherwize improved tiles, the riverside north of BT for example doesnt have anything yet, just cottage it. Unless we intend to put worker turns into a (temporary) Preserve there.

Tip:
Perhaps for cottaging JH... Have single worker(s) road ahead and check the (potential prebuild cottages).
Then have a stack of 4 workers come up behind move to tile and cottage 1 turn. Should leave 1 turn to finish, IIRC it is 5 turns to chop/cottage one tile.
be carefull with the Watermill though, cause that dont need the chop, thus will be less turns. And double check my idea that it is right, perhaps still move the workers one by one... but I think this way is less chance for mistakenly completed Cottages.
Tip: You know the \ right?? Select last unit...

Your plan now has Biff, AG, BT worker, Einstein, Emmet Brown, Fearlesss and namliaM cottaging in JH. 7 workers... That is a lot
How many do we need to pre-cottage all JH in 13 turns? 18 * 4 turns = 72 worker turns / 13 = 5.54 workers.

Do we want to add roads as well? 18 * 6 = 8.3 workers. we have some roads, saving some turns... Dont need roads everywhere...
Somewhere between 6 and 8 workers are needed, so OK we need the 7 workers I think... Then some of them can run off to CiB to preserve there, while others run to Sleeps for farms/Workshops and/or Cottages in GV/BT.

Troopers
Hammy will be constantly hitting our Troopers with his Airships. I suggest you DONT promote our troopers as soon as you can, but rather as late as you can.
Instead of using 19.2 strength/health you will be using 21.6 units, which can make a world of difference in the odds we will get.
Another consideration about promotions. I think we want C1 for all our troopers, then what??
C2 wont make much difference I think? Perhaps going up Drill to minimize damage taken is an idea??
Or skip the C1 and go right for Drill? I seem to remember when you have the upperhand minimizing damage is key.

Babylon
Remember to take into account, that this will be reinforced!
If we have 4/5 troopers on site I think we will spend the better part of 4 or 5 turns there, assuming they survive that long without accumulating to much damage...
Sippar will NOT get reinforced (as much) due to its location and 2 tile access. Any reinforcements can be picked off by our Troopers before they actually arrive and get the culture bonus. You could even cut it off completely, but having reinforcements to pick of is much nicer...
IIRC from my turnset Sippar had 3 defenders, but this may have changed.

Lets see... for Opis...
0 nothing
1 Kill Fort XBow
2 Move 1 SW
3 Move 1 NW
4 bomb/attack/take Opis
5 move into Opis
6 Drop to Babylon
7 attack Babylon

For Sippar
0 nothing
1 Into Dur K.
2 Drop to Sippar
3 bomb/attack/Take Sippar
4 Move into Sippar
5 <<Heal 1 turn>>
6 Drop to babylon
7 Attack Babylon

That seems to synch up quite nicely...
8 Take babylon :D

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 01:07 PM

Since I took a risk attacking a city last turnset, f*ck it. Risk it.
I trust you guys! If you all think the risk is worth the reward, go for it...

No guts, no glory!
I think we can risk 2 turns delay on Taj, so we can get the Emancipation swap on the final golden age turn without delaying Corp or Bio.

This sounds like a team agreeing :D

I will use Hap's suggestion though, and start the Taj for 2 turns until the Galleon arrives around Cuzco, to check out its base-hammers. More than 20:hammers:, and I'll stop and ask for advice!

Huh??? New worker on the current tile ?? hehehe Cottage CC :D Would that make a 7 commerce CC or 8 commerce?? :crazyeye:

Yeah, well, copy-paste is a nice option, isn't it? :lol:

What happens to the Trooper that is currently Garison for Sleeps?? or is that regarded as "new trooper from Sleeps?"

Well, he's the one where the plan says "SS-Trooper (sounds even worse) airlifts to Dur-K on the next turn" ;)

Also with the C1 Xbow moving out of TR, no need for the SE road. Have him build 1 road on the flood plain north of TR instead of namliaM, then head north?
How about that??

:agree:

Tip: You know the \ right?? Select last unit...

No, I didn't know that option, but I knew how to NOT finish improvements.

This shortcut-key makes it much easier, though :goodjob:

TroopersI suggest you DONT promote our troopers as soon as you can, but rather as late as you can.

I never promote units if there's no immediate need ;)

Or skip the C1 and go right for Drill? I seem to remember when you have the upperhand minimizing damage is key.

Sounds good!

Babylon
Remember to take into account, that this will be reinforced!

I'll see what Hammurabi does. But your synched Opis-Sippar-plan sounds nice, if Babylon is too strong!

And now, I'll play ... expect the report in a few hours ... :king:

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 01:17 PM

And now, I'll play ... expect the report in a few hours ... :king:

I didn't start playing; we have a problem ... first thing I did was setting up our research: to tech Democracy, we need Printing Press!!! That is another 2-turn-research-project. I cannot believe nobody noticed this :mischief:

Makes it Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2) > Printing Press (2) > Democracy (4) = 14 turns.

To revolt to Emancipation on the last turn of the Golden Age, we would have to delay the Taj Mahal by 4 turns! :eek:

That allows HC to build the Taj Mahal before us, even if he still has his 17 base-hammers.

What now? Risk 4 turns as well???

KaleLambiek

May 15, 2009, 02:23 PM

I didn't start playing; we have a problem ... first thing I did was setting up our research: to tech Democracy, we need Printing Press!!! That is another 2-turn-research-project. I cannot believe nobody noticed this :mischief:

Makes it Biology (3) > Constitution (3) > Corporation (2) > Printing Press (2) > Democracy (4) = 14 turns.

To revolt to Emancipation on the last turn of the Golden Age, we would have to delay the Taj Mahal by 4 turns! :eek:

That allows HC to build the Taj Mahal before us, even if he still has his 17 base-hammers.

What now? Risk 4 turns as well???
I had assumed your research was till corporation... and in the turncount to Democracy you had included PP.

The entire tree is 2229 (left on biology) +2003+1602+1602+2804=10.240 beakers
We make 753 * 120% = 903 beakers per turn
10.240 / 903 = 11.3 turns. (never trust what the game displays)

Plus we get extra beakers from Corporation and the Obs/Lab (s) finishing as well as any added commerce from the GA. Researching to Demo should be about 10 turns.

Your planned research of Bio > Constitution > Corp is 3605 + 2003 + 1602 = 7210 / 903 = 7.98 turns

Regardless, the 12 turns = 2 (trooper) + 6 Taj + 6 GA = 14 turns to revolt vs 12 turns to Demo... Should fit just fine.... Even if it were 14 turns to research to Democracy it would fit! Dont see the problem?

Edit:
Did you catch my post above about the GM from LM???

ChrisFromLux

May 15, 2009, 03:01 PM

and in the turncount to Democracy you had included PP.

Yeah, well, seems it wasn't :blush:

(never trust what the game displays)

Wow, I knew that the game didn't display the different techs 100% correct, but that it is off by 2 turns overall surprises me though!

I verified your calculations, using simply 900:beakers:/turn, ignoring any extra beakers from more buildings or the Golden Age.

Should result in Biology (3) > Constitution (2) > Corporation (2) > Printing Press (2) > Democracy (3), for a total of maximum 12 turns (like we calculated it anyway :crazyeye:).
So, it fits well :goodjob:

But it's quite late here by now, and I delay playing until tomorrow ...

Did you catch my post above about the GM from LM???

Yes, I did ... and I thought I had replied to it.

Seems like I didn't, but I noted 'your' specialists on my papers here ;

JerichoHill

May 15, 2009, 06:34 PM

looks good chris, kick some butt ttomorrow

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 01:43 AM

looks good chris, kick some butt ttomorrow

Tomorrow = now, so let's go ... :)

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 02:44 AM

Wow, I knew that the game didn't display the different techs 100% correct, but that it is off by 2 turns overall surprises me though!
Every 2 techs the game can be off by 1 turn, as it doesnt account for overflow... It looks at each tech seperately

Should result in Biology (3) > Constitution (2) > Corporation (2) > Printing Press (2) > Democracy (3), for a total of maximum 12 turns (like we calculated it anyway :crazyeye:).
So, it fits well :goodjob:
it is 5 techs, so its a little less even than one turn per 2 techs...

I verified your calculations, using simply 900:beakers:/turn, ignoring any extra beakers from more buildings or the Golden Age.
I didnt work with anything like this either... or growth from cities or cities comming out of revolt.

753 is the beakers we make now
+120% is what you get on every tech you research.
Total 903 beakers, which will increase (significantly) during your set.
10 from the obs in CiB
10 Lab in SdL
13 Dur K. Comming out of revolt.
7 CiB working the extra Hill
3 for LM working a coast
7 for different pop growths/working improved tiles
==
40 commerce extra atleast

Plus +3 per city in traderoutes from Corporation @ 10 cities = 30 more beakers.
I would be totaly disappointed if you come back with less than 830 beakers per turn. You should stop (I think) just before finishing the Taj, handing a full GA set to HapHazard?

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 02:56 AM

Oh man, I really am unlucky with this turnset ... :(
I started playing, when IBT126-127, a GEngineer was born in Cuzco :eek:

Luckily, we also got a GEngineer from LM (seems like I cannot get GScientists in this game). So, we can use this GEngineer to finish the Taj Mahal this turn in JH, beating HC to it.

The GE gives us 589:hammers:; even if HC is smaller, he should easily get enough hammers to complete the Taj Mahal immediately.

Of course, this also forces us to change techs. We are now 1 turn from Biology; ignore Corporation and leave Biology be, and immediately go Constitution > Printing Press > Democracy, and hope the GA shaves off 1 turn off Democracy, to make it 6 turns, to be able to switch to Emancipation on the last turn?!?

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 02:59 AM

I uploaded the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Misfits_SG009_AD1340_01.CivBeyondSwordSave), so you can take a look, if you want ...

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 03:46 AM

Alternative idea: risk losing the Taj Mahal, and keep the GE for building Cristo. :eek:

HC can already build the Broadway ... maybe he started this already, and he will use his GE to finish it?
We could also gift him Divine Right and Paper, to allow him building the Spiral Minaret or the University of Sankore, which would go well with his self-founded state religion.

And even if this doesn't work, we get the money from Taj Mahal, allowing us to run more turns at 100%-slider, we get the Cristo for our anarchy-free civic-changes and we do not 'waste' a GE to get a wonder 3 turns earlier ... of course, we miss 6 turns of Golden Age!

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 05:47 AM

I wouldnt use the GE for the Taj, we can use the GE to bump a GA by itself... I would rush Cristo with it. Or rush Broadway/R&R losing a few hammers but get the extra happy to controle the WW a little better.

He will give 3 hammers per turn for 70 turns is 210 hammers +50% on average 315 hammers.
+ 3 beakers + 250% = 7.5 * 70 = 525 beakers

Would did HC have to research Philo > Nationalism?? What is wrong with Guilds>Banking or Paper>PP even Paper > Education?? CRAP CRAP CRAP

JerichoHill

May 16, 2009, 05:52 AM

I agree with Kale, rather than rush Taj, build Cristo so we never lose any turns on civics and religion changes again (we become spiritual I guess)

But keep building Taj, just in case!

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 06:18 AM

Either he rushes Taj (unlikely IMHO) or not... If he doesnt even more chances we can delay Taj :)

He has to be building Taj at the moment to rush it... AI arent known for their strategic thinking and keeping GPs in general around for bulbs/rushes a few turns later.

Comments about the save
- You havent assigned any GMs in LM
Dont we want a GM from LM?

- Effeceint worker movement
The worker now 2 SW of JH could have stopped off 1 East of Sleeps and farmed for 1 turn... Move and work... Then go to JH.

- Bowman
Remember to kill him, you fortified the C1 XBow... might forget and allow the bowman to pillage the farm :(

- FH
We need Lib and Theatre in FH to be able to run specialists there post CoL.
Also next turn start running 4 specialists, do we want Scientists or Artists there?? Artists are going to be the lowest odds I think in other cities... Then again we can get a quick Theatre/Odeon and run 4 Artists if we need an artist...

- GV
Dont we want to work the cottage over the grass forest?
Have the new worker build Cottages on the plains to eat up some of the 7 food GV has in trade for hammers. 7 food is way to much and its growing very fast! This is going to jump to 11!!! with Biology, good in itself, but a little much...

- BT
Plains farm instead of Plains forest ?? But Cottage instead of plains farm....
The one extra food though makes it grow a turn sooner :)

- CiB
11 turns and counting to remove Opis...

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 06:36 AM

OK, 3 votes to risk the Taj Mahal and keep the GE for Cristo already. I will wait 2-3 hours anyway before I'll continue, giving others a bit more time to comment as well.

You havent assigned any GMs in LM

No, I kept the 4 scientists running as inherited. I'm OK with switching, though ... all 4?

Effeceint worker movement

True; that's something I very rarely think of :(

Remember to kill him, you fortified the C1 XBow... might forget and allow the bowman to pillage the farm :(

No, he isn't fortified ;)

He just moved out there this turn; I reselected him again (don't know why) and skipped his turn. But he is not fortified!

GV
Dont we want to work the cottage over the grass forest?
[...]
BT
Plains farm instead of Plains forest ?? But Cottage instead of plains farm....
The one extra food though makes it grow a turn sooner :)

Will be taken care of ... checking the cities is what I always do at the end of every turn, which isn't reached yet :)

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 08:19 AM

I detailed the GS> GM switch... If we want an additional GM for $$$ then the place to get it from is LM. If we want a GM from LM (I think so) then we should switch all 4.

The Xbow looks fortified... Nevermind then... :D

I think I had mentioned the Grass FOrest <> Cottage in GV before though??

haphazard1

May 16, 2009, 09:42 AM

Add another vote for using the GE on Cristo, and hoping we can get the Taj anyway.

HC is being very frustrating this game...I am starting to agree with Kale's idea of conquering him late for cash and MoM. :satan:

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 10:21 AM

OK, let's start another attempt ... hopefully, I can finish the turnset now, without any other bad news! :cool:

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 02:06 PM

Turnset finally done.

In short, we have:
- captured Sippar and Opis
- learned Biology, Constitution and Corporation
- completed the Taj Mahal and started our well-earned, first Golden Age :D
Looks like a good point to hand over the save.

In general, everything went according to plan, except for Hammurabi, who put up quite a fight. Even with Uber-units, being outnumbered ~3:1 and using no Siege Weapons was ... ahem, strange, but interesting :mischief:

Some details:

T125 (inherited)
- sold Corn to HC for 4:gold:
- resold Fur to Joao for 7:gold: (+2)
- disbanded Red Shirt, saving 1:gold:

IBT
- GE born in Lake Mastiff

T126
- GE fortifies in Jericho's Hill; he would net us 589:hammers:

IBT
- GE born in Cuzco :mad:

T127
- 4 Troopers drop next to Sippar, defended by 3 units
- 2 Troopers stay in Dur-K, to heal and defend

IBT
- Hammurabi completes the Spiral Minaret in Babylon
- 2 CR3-Medic1-Macemen land on Bear Town's cows
- ... and ... Huayna Capac completes the Broadway :D
- Bye Bye, Great Engineer :wavey:

T128
- the 1st Trooper (Fort-Killer) moves to Opis; there are 5 defenders! :eek:
- 2 Troopers (CiB and SS) follow him
- in Sippar, Hammurabi has called back a Maceman who was on his way to Dur-K and he whipped another unit, making it 5 defenders as well :(
- nevertheless, our Troopers kill 3 of them, leaving 2 defenders
- our Merchant has arrived in Cuzco; there are no mines ... and his trademission gives us the ~expected 1541:gold:
- as a result of the Merchant's discovery, I decide to go back to our initial plan and delay the Taj Mahal by 2 turns
- the Rifle and an XBow kill both Barbs on the Cows
- our XBow in the south kills Hammurabi's Bowman, giving him 2XP ... and allows him to be another Medic
- I cancel our gift of Copper and Fur to Huayna, and trade Fur for Hit Musicals
- I switch back more Espionage-points to Huayna, to keep his research visible

IBT
- Hammurabi gets another Great Artist ... while writing this, I notice that I don't know what he used him for :(

T129
- we capture Sippar, losing 1 Trooper; gives us 130:gold:, city maintenance goes from 46 to 58, and total expenses rise from 183 to 205. Ouch!
- we start our first round of attacks on Opis, killing 2 defenders, but losing 1 Trooper

IBT
- Wang Kon asks for Electricity; No!
- Joao completes the University of Sankore

T130
- I renewed our resource-deal with Stalin, for 2:gold: more
- our Missionary from CIB confuses Two Rivers, and I insert a Temple instead of the planned Courthouse, for more hammers
- a Great General is born in Lake Mastiff. I send him to Sleep's Shock, where I would settle him for 2 promotions out of the box. But I don't use him, and keep the possibility open of making him an Uber-Trooper or a Super-Medic.
- in Opis, there are still too many defenders, while we only have 2 Troopers in position so far. As a result, 1 Trooper kills a defender, but the other Trooper does not attack, at only 68% odds.
- 1 new Trooper from Jericho's Hill joins in, and 2 Troopers drop from Sippar to Dur-K, from where they can reach Babylon and Opis next turn. I start to really love Troopers :D
- By the way, although Hammurabi kept reinforcing all his cities, he still has 6 defenders in Babylon, as well as 2 Catapults and 6 Airships. Who said that he didn't have any units :confused: ;)

IBT
- Joao asks us to adopt Taoism, which he had spread into Food Heaven earlier. Couldn't he wait 2 more turns? :mad:
- Ap-resolution comes up to stop this unholy war between our brothers and sisters. Nevertheless, we vote "No" :)

T131
- 3 more defenders have been killed in Opis, but there are still 2 left

IBT
- for some reason, the AP-resolution fails

T132
- Jericho's Hill completes the Taj Mahal
- we net 139:gold: from not completing it in Sushi de Luxe
- Opis is finally captured, at size 1, netting us only 86:gold:, and raising maintenance from 60 to 63 or total expenses from 215 to 216
- we adopt Free Religion and Representation
- I only moved the cottaging workers around Jericho's Hill, as well as the Airships and 2 Troopers to capture Opis. All other units can still move.
- I move our Galleon towards Sippar, and I hope Hammurabi uses 1 Airship/turn to attack the ship instead of a Trooper. In my experience, the AI loves to attack ships with them ...

Finally, the link (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Misfits_SG009_AD1420_01.CivBeyondSwordSave) to the save ... and the logs will follow in the next post, as they start becoming to long.

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 02:08 PM

Still too many characters to put both logs into 1 post ...

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 125/330 (1300 AD) [16-May-2009 09:59:48]
Lake Mastiff begins: Confucian Temple (5 turns)
Island Town begins: Worker (2 turns)
Bear Town begins: Worker (3 turns)
Grapeville begins: Worker (3 turns)
Confucianism has spread: Grapeville
A Camp was built
Crossbowman promoted: Medic I
Dur-Kurigalzu begins: Granary (41 turns)
Lake Mastiff grows: 12
Orville Wright (Great Engineer) born in Lake Mastiff
CopperIceBall finishes: Observatory
Two Rivers grows: 5
Food Heaven grows: 6

IBT:

Turn 126/330 (1320 AD) [16-May-2009 10:16:44]
CopperIceBall begins: Confucian Missionary (2 turns)
While attacking in Babylonian territory near CopperIceBall, Paratrooper defeats (21.12/24): Babylonian Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
CopperIceBall grows: 9
Sushi de Luxe grows: 12
Island Town finishes: Worker
Bear Town finishes: Worker
Two Rivers's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 127/330 (1340 AD) [16-May-2009 10:27:46]
Island Town begins: Laboratory (9 turns)
A Cottage was built near Grapeville
Galleon promoted: Combat I
Sushi de Luxe begins: Theatre (1 turns)

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 127/330 (1340 AD) [16-May-2009 10:43:48]
Jericho's Hill begins: The Eiffel Tower (10 turns)

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 127/330 (1340 AD) [16-May-2009 14:24:32]

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 127/330 (1340 AD) [16-May-2009 18:20:33]
Tech learned: Biology
Sleep's Shock grows: 9
CopperIceBall finishes: Confucian Missionary
Sushi de Luxe finishes: Theatre
Two Rivers grows: 6
Food Heaven grows: 7
Grapeville finishes: Worker

IBT:
Taoism has spread: Food Heaven
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Pericles(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 128/330 (1360 AD) [16-May-2009 18:29:07]
CopperIceBall begins: National Park (13 turns)
Grapeville begins: Confucian Temple (6 turns)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (14.40/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 91.9%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (4.80/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 89.4%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (12.00/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 89.9%)
A Cottage was built near Grapeville
LittleJohn (Rifleman) promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Greek territory at Bear Town, LittleJohn (Rifleman) defeats (11.90/14): Barbarian Maceman (Prob Victory: 96.3%)
While attacking in Greek territory at Bear Town, Crossbowman defeats (0.60/6): Barbarian Maceman (Prob Victory: 75.1%)
A Cottage was built near Bear Town
While attacking in Greek territory at Two Rivers, Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) defeats (2.64/6): Babylonian Bowman (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
Jericho's Hill begins: Paratrooper (2 turns)
Sushi de Luxe begins: The Taj Mahal (9 turns)
A Hamlet was built near Jericho's Hill
Lake Mastiff finishes: Confucian Temple
Sleep's Shock finishes: Paratrooper
Island Town grows: 11
Bear Town grows: 8
Bear Town finishes: Granary
Grapeville grows: 8
Grapeville finishes: Confucian Temple

IBT:
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Joao II(Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 129/330 (1380 AD) [16-May-2009 20:01:37]
Lake Mastiff begins: Grocer (7 turns)
Sleep's Shock begins: Paratrooper (4 turns)
Grapeville begins: Courthouse (7 turns)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (2.88/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 85.2%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (14.40/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 84.7%)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper loses to: Babylonian Crossbowman (0.96/6) (Prob Victory: 80.6%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (11.76/24): Babylonian Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Islam has spread: Sippar
Captured Sippar (Hammurabi)
Sippar begins: Lighthouse (41 turns)
Sippar begins: Theatre (34 turns)
Sippar begins: Lighthouse (41 turns)
A Windmill was built near Two Rivers
A Cottage was built near Island Town
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper loses to: Babylonian Maceman (0.64/8) (Prob Victory: 79.2%)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (13.44/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 75.6%)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (9.36/24): Babylonian Longbowman (Prob Victory: 86.7%)
Tech learned: Constitution
Jericho's Hill finishes: Paratrooper
Lake Mastiff grows: 13
Sleep's Shock grows: 10
Sleep's Shock's borders expand
Two Rivers grows: 7
Two Rivers finishes: Forge

IBT:
While defending in Greek territory at Sippar, Paratrooper defeats (13.92/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
Attitude Change: Shaka(Zululand) towards Stalin(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Shaka(Zululand) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 130/330 (1400 AD) [16-May-2009 20:18:35]
Jericho's Hill begins: Rock N Roll (10 turns)
Two Rivers begins: Courthouse (7 turns)
Jericho's Hill begins: The Taj Mahal (3 turns)
Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) promoted: Medic I
A Windmill was built near Food Heaven
A Farm was built near Sleep's Shock
Confucianism has spread: Two Rivers
Two Rivers begins: Confucian Temple (5 turns)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill II
Paratrooper promoted: Drill II
Ivan the Terrible (Great General) born in Lake Mastiff
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (10.56/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 84.8%)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill II
Sushi de Luxe grows: 13
Grapeville grows: 9
Dur-Kurigalzu's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Hammurabi(Babylon) towards Wang Kon(Korea), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 131/330 (1410 AD) [16-May-2009 20:50:28]
Paratrooper promoted: Drill III
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (9.36/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 88.8%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (17.28/24): Babylonian Crossbowman (Prob Victory: 90.7%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (14.16/24): Babylonian Swordsman (Prob Victory: 88.6%)
Tech learned: Corporation
Golden Age begins
Jericho's Hill finishes: The Taj Mahal
Sleep's Shock finishes: Paratrooper
Sushi de Luxe finishes: Laboratory
Two Rivers grows: 8
Grapeville grows: 10
Grapeville's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 132/330 (1420 AD) [16-May-2009 21:02:42]
Jericho's Hill begins: Cristo Redentor (8 turns)
Sleep's Shock begins: Paratrooper (3 turns)
Sushi de Luxe begins: Paratrooper (3 turns)
Paratrooper promoted: Drill I
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (13.92/24): Babylonian Maceman (Prob Victory: 92.6%)
While attacking in Babylonian territory at Opis, Paratrooper defeats (17.28/24): Babylonian Swordsman (Prob Victory: 93.3%)
Captured Opis (Hammurabi)
Opis begins: Library (61 turns)

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 02:12 PM

... makes a 3rd post necessary, where I still had to cut out the details of some fights :crazyeye:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1300 AD to 1340 AD:

Turn 125, 1300 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Food Heaven!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Hammurabi has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's LittleJohn (Rifleman) (14.00) vs Barbarian'sMaceman (8.80)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 95.6%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Combat: +10%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's LittleJohn (Rifleman) has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your LittleJohn has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Maceman (8.80) vs Barbarian'sMaceman (8.00)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Combat: +50%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Barbarian's Maceman has defeated Pericles's Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Maceman has died trying to attack a Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman (6.60) vs Barbarian'sMaceman (1.06)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Crossbowman has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Galleon (4.00) vs Barbarian'sGalley (2.60)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 90.9%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Galleon has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Galleon has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (24.55) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (11.70)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (24.55) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (10.50)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (24.55) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (12.00)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (24.55) vs Hammurabi'sBowman (7.05)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
[...]
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Bowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Bowman!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: You have captured Dur-Kurigalzu!!!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-19% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-19% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-1% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hammurabi
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Huayna Capac has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Wang Kon has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Hammurabi has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hammurabi
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Huayna Capac has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Wang Kon has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Hammurabi has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hammurabi
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Huayna Capac has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Wang Kon has 7 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Hammurabi has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Deal Canceled: Iron to Huayna Capac
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Deal Canceled: Fur to Joao II for Gold Per Turn (5)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Confucianism has spread in Grapeville.
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Huayna Capac for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Lake Mastiff has grown to size 12
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Orville Wright (Great Engineer) has been born in Lake Mastiff (Pericles)!
Turn 125, 1300 AD: CopperIceBall will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Sushi de Luxe will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Two Rivers has grown to size 5
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Food Heaven has grown to size 6
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Will Scarlett was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-20% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-14% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-13% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-13% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-6% Damage)
Turn 125, 1300 AD: Two Rivers's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 126, 1320 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Food Heaven!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Dur-Kurigalzu!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (24.00) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (9.60)
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 126, 1320 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 126, 1320 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 126, 1320 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
[...]
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Sleep's Shock will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 126, 1320 AD: CopperIceBall has grown to size 9
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Sushi de Luxe has grown to size 12
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Sushi de Luxe has become unhappy
Turn 126, 1320 AD: You have trained a Worker in Bear Town. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 126, 1320 AD: The borders of Two Rivers have expanded!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Two Rivers will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Food Heaven will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Isambard Kingdom Brunel (Great Engineer) has been born in Cuzco (Huayna Capac)!
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-14% Damage)
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-18% Damage)
Turn 126, 1320 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-6% Damage)

Turn 127, 1340 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Food Heaven!
Turn 127, 1340 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 127, 1340 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Grapeville.
Turn 127, 1340 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hammurabi
Turn 127, 1340 AD: Hammurabi has 6 gold per turn available for trade

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1340 AD to 1420 AD:

Turn 127, 1340 AD: You have discovered Biology!
Turn 127, 1340 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Sushi de Luxe. Work has now begun on a Laboratory.
Turn 127, 1340 AD: Huayna Capac has completed Broadway!
Turn 127, 1340 AD: Taoism has spread in Food Heaven.
Turn 127, 1340 AD: Hammurabi has completed The Spiral Minaret!

Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (23.76) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (15.60)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 91.9%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
[...]
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.12) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (13.10)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Hills Defense: +45%)
[...]
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.12) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (12.85)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 89.9%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Hills Defense: +45%)
[...]
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's LittleJohn (Rifleman) (14.00) vs Barbarian'sMaceman (8.80)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Combat: +10%)
[...]
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's LittleJohn (Rifleman) has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian'sMaceman (5.33)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 75.1%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Combat: -50%)
[...]
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) (6.60) vs Hammurabi'sBowman (3.30)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Hammurabi's Bowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Hammurabi's Bowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Hammurabi's Bowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Hammurabi's Bowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Pericles's Friar Tuck (Crossbowman) has defeated Hammurabi's Bowman!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Bear Town. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Bear Town celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 128, 1360 AD: Ibn Muqlah (Great Artist) has been born in Babylon (Hammurabi)!

Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (22.08) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (14.80)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 85.2%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (76/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (60/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (44/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (28/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (12/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.80) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (11.76)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 84.7%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Hills Defense: +45%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (54/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (60/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (28/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (2/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (15.84) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (10.50)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 80.6%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (46/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (32/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (18/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (4/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman has defeated Pericles's Paratrooper!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (15.84) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (1.68)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +65%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 11 (49/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: You have captured Sippar!!!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (23.76) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (18.40)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 79.2%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (56/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (39/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (22/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (5/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman has defeated Pericles's Paratrooper!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (18.00)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 75.6%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (56/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (15.30)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 86.7%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Hills Defense: +25%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 23 (62/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (56/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 23 (39/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (39/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 23 (16/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: You have discovered Constitution!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: The borders of Sleep's Shock have expanded!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Bear Town celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Joao II has completed University of Sankore!
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman (9.60) vs Pericles'sParatrooper (25.92)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 11 (69/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 11 (58/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 129, 1380 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!

Turn 130, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Dur-Kurigalzu!
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Confucianism has spread in Two Rivers.
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-15% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-5% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Crossbowman! (-17% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (18.72) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (14.40)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 84.8%
Turn 130, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (58/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (61/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (44/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Ivan the Terrible (Great General) has been born in Lake Mastiff (Pericles)!
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Deal Canceled: Fish to Stalin for Gold Per Turn (3)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Deal Canceled: Wine to Stalin for Gold Per Turn (2)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Sushi de Luxe has grown to size 13
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Sushi de Luxe has become unhappy
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Two Rivers will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Grapeville has grown to size 9
Turn 130, 1400 AD: The borders of Dur-Kurigalzu have expanded!
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-18% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Will Scarlett was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-20% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-12% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-8% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-2% Damage)
Turn 130, 1400 AD: Grapeville's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-4% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Swordsman! (-16% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Swordsman! (-17% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (16.00)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Combat Odds: 88.8%
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (73/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (58/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (56/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 17 (39/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.28) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (10.70)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Combat Odds: 90.7%
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (57/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (31/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (5/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.76) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (12.09)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Combat Odds: 88.6%
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (59/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (34/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (59/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (9/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: You have discovered Corporation!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Pericles has completed The Taj Mahal!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Sleep's Shock will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Sushi de Luxe can no longer work on The Taj Mahal. The lost ? is converted into 139?!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Bear Town will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Two Rivers has grown to size 8
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Grapeville has grown to size 10
Turn 131, 1410 AD: The borders of Grapeville have expanded!
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Crossbowman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-20% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-18% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Will Scarlett was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-20% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-12% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-8% Damage)
Turn 131, 1410 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-2% Damage)

Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-15% Damage)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-5% Damage)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.76)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 92.6%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (74/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (56/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (58/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (32/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (8/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Swordsman! (-17% Damage)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.28) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (10.95)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 93.3%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (57/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (31/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (5/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have captured Opis!!!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Your land area: 212 (14.55%) is close to the Domination Limit: 932 (64.00%).
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles adopts Representation!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles adopts Free Religion!

JerichoHill

May 16, 2009, 02:16 PM

Ham whipped units.

How many troopers assaulting Babylon now?

I think that's a good turnset, got the Taj!

haphazard1

May 16, 2009, 03:03 PM

I will look at the save shortly and post more detailed comments, but it sounds like a pretty good turnset, Chris! :goodjob:

As expected, Hammi has been whipping like a madman. :( We will end up capturing very small cities after killing lots of defenders, but there really is no help for it.

Opis is taken...should relieve the culture pressure on CiB and make it much harder for Hammi to move anything into our territory. :)

OK, off to check the save.

haphazard1 is UP! to continue conquering Babylon.
Mastiff is on deck.

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 03:12 PM

Ham whipped units.

Of course he did ... but even on the very first turn, there were a lot of units in and around Babylon!

How many troopers assaulting Babylon now?

None right now, but Hap can have some 8 Troopers outside the city in 2 turns!

Opis is taken...should relieve the culture pressure on CiB and make it much harder for Hammi to move anything into our territory. :)

Yep ... full effect will only be visible next turn, though. And remember that 2nd Great Artist he got. I don't know if he culture-bombed that one as well :confused:

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 03:50 PM

Nice report Chris :) Except no screenies :(

T125 (inherited)
- sold Corn to HC for 4:gold:
- resold Fur to Joao for 7:gold: (+2)
- disbanded Red Shirt, saving 1:gold: Ching :)

IBT
- GE born in Lake Mastiff
What do we do with him? Settle him for ~500 beakers 200 hammers?
Or Rush Cristo or keep around for The Gorge??

I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power :) OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

T127
- 4 Troopers drop next to Sippar, defended by 3 units
- 2 Troopers stay in Dur-K, to heal and defend
1 would have been enough, or were two so damaged that they both needed to heal??

- ... and ... Huayna Capac completes the Broadway :D
- Bye Bye, Great Engineer :wavey:
And we get the musicals too :)

- our XBow in the south kills Hammurabi's Bowman, giving him 2XP ... and allows him to be another Medic
Thank you bowman :)

IBT
- Hammurabi gets another Great Artist ... while writing this, I notice that I don't know what he used him for
I hope he settled him

T129
- we capture Sippar, losing 1 Trooper; gives us 130:gold:, city maintenance goes from 46 to 58, and total expenses rise from 183 to 205. Ouch!
- we start our first round of attacks on Opis, killing 2 defenders, but losing 1 Trooper

Some losses were to be expected :(

- Joao completes the University of Sankore

Come on Joao, go for Versailles !! Go for Versailles ! Wait a second... Did he research paper?? LOL

- a Great General is born in Lake Mastiff. I send him to Sleep's Shock, where I would settle him for 2 promotions out of the box. But I don't use him, and keep the possibility open of making him an Uber-Trooper or a Super-Medic.
I think I will take the 2 xp...

- we net 139:gold: from not completing it in Sushi de Luxe
There we go... money !!!!
- Opis is finally captured, at size 1, netting us only 86:gold:, and raising maintenance from 60 to 63 or total expenses from 215 to 216
Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

Nice set Chris, barring the dead troopers :( but that cannot really be helped

Comments on the save:
- GMs in LM
We need/can up this considerably atleast to 6, maybe 7 during the GA to up the GM chances there, to bad about the 1 turn scientists....
6 is probably the magic number though....

- CiB
Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

- SdL
You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

- BT
Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

- FH
This will delay the GP from FH a little, but we are losing a lot by not working the Milled hill...
Running just 4 is not going to be enough anyways.... We have to either run 5 during the GA or we can run 3 now, grow a pop and continue to run 4 after that...
With 5 we beat CiB to 670 on turn 150.
With 4 we do not and only spawn at 804 on turn 158.
If we do 3,3,3,3,4,4 during the GA and 4 beyond we still get that GP at turn 159 on 804 GPP from FH.

- Worker South of GV
Is building a Cottage on grass :( Plains would have been SO MUCH better. At +9 food we need to use that food....

- Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

- JH
Christo... when do we need it?? Not for a while yet I think??
Suggest we swap the Engineer for a scientist (for 1 turn) and non-build the Heroic epic 1 turn (132 gold)
Then re-hire the engineer and non-build National Epic one turn. (134 gold)
Trooper > Trooper
R&R ? or more troopers?

- Sleeps
After growing a pop and working a preserve at 37 base hammers/turn +125% = 83 hammers per turn... NE at 167 is a perfect 2 turn non-build.
Trooper > Dump overflow to Eifel or Trooper or something
NE 2 turns (non-build!) 136 gold
HE

Other cities to be looked at, *erm* later today :D

Edit:
I suggest we sell our Maps around for 250 gold all together...

haphazard1

May 16, 2009, 03:56 PM

OK, took a quick look around. Overall our situation is pretty good. :)

- We are starting to get WW. Grapeville has become unhappy (1 citizen), and Bear Town and Sushi deLuxe only have 1 spare happy. We are going to need more happiness real soon now...like those whales. Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?

- The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.

- HC is working on Rifling, 7 turns. At which point he can build Paras...and may trade the tech to other civs so they can build paras. :( The era of cheap conquests may end rather quickly. If Joao gets paras, we are not going to conquer him without siege weapons and tanks, and lots of units. We will have to keep a close eye on how quickly the tech spreads. For now the other AIs are still multiple techs away. If we do want to conquer Joao, we should probably do so immediately after Hammi.

- Music is available from Hammi, and is also known by HC (but not willing to trade, since we have gone to Rep). I do not think Music is valuable to us, certainly not enough to make a peace deal and delay finishing Hammi by 10 turns.

- GG currently in Sleeps: I think we settle him there as an instructor for the +2 XP and get 5 XP units from our HE city. This should be far more valuable than a super-medic or super-attacker, and also more valuable than a military academy (not that we can build one right now anyway).

- GE currently in JH: I assume we use him for the Cristo (this turn)? What to do then in JH? Build R&R, about 7 turns or so? The happiness would be nice, boosting our odeons as well. Put turns into Eiffel? Although maybe we hold off on that so we can get some good non-building hammers into it. Just build more paras to accelerate the war effort?

- Our next GP should come from JH in 5 turns. Current odds:

Prophet 60%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

Prophet gets saved for golden age fodder, presumably? Not sure on the others; engineer maybe for Three Gorges?

- What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy? Steam Power for faster workers, coal, and levees looks pretty good. Plus it opens up Assembly Line for factories and power. Steel for cannon and Iron Works? Also opens Railroad, but that requires Steam Power as well.

- Good progress on getting JH ready for the big Emancipation conversion. :) When we do start finishing those cottages, what do we want to put all the chop hammers into? R&R? Paras? Other?

I will start putting together an initial turnset plan, but need feedback from the rest of the team (obviousyl!).

Nice work, Chris! :goodjob:

haphazard1

May 16, 2009, 04:15 PM

What do we do with him? Settle him for ~500 beakers 200 hammers?
Or Rush Cristo or keep around for The Gorge??

I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power :) OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

We will want Cristo so we can swap to US + FS at some point, probably about 28 turns from now or slightly more, depending on timing of the big cottage conversion at JH. Without a golden age, figure Cristo is about 10 turns in JH? Maybe that drops if we get a levee, factory, etc into the city before we build Cristo.

Cristo would also be nice for being able to respond to diplo demands like Joao's without costing ourselves much. :) Or quick jumps into OR or Pacifism, or Slavery, etc. So there is value in building Cristo now. Enough to be worth spending the GE? Not sure.

I hope he settled him

We can hope. I did not see a note of a Hammi golden age, although he could have bulbed him.

Come on Joao, go for Versailles !! Go for Versailles ! Wait a second... Did he research paper?? LOL

Versailles waiting for us down south would be nice. :)

I think I will take the 2 xp...

:agree:

Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

That does sound weird. The +3 city cost I can believe, since it is size 1 and not too far from our capital.

Comments on the save:
- GMs in LM
We need/can up this considerably atleast to 6, maybe 7 during the GA to up the GM chances there, to bad about the 1 turn scientists....
6 is probably the magic number though....

Will definitely try to squeeze in extra specialists wherever possible during the GA. Or will it only help in selected cities?

- CiB
Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

:agree: Stops the starvation, more hammers and commerce. A few GPP lost during a golden age, but no help for it.

- SdL
You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

We could add a barracks here easily enough, if we want to. Depends if we want JH to build some more troops, or spend its time on wonders. Although Sleeps with HE will be turning out paras pretty rapidly.

- BT
Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

- FH
This will delay the GP from FH a little, but we are losing a lot by not working the Milled hill...
Running just 4 is not going to be enough anyways.... We have to either run 5 during the GA or we can run 3 now, grow a pop and continue to run 4 after that...
With 5 we beat CiB to 670 on turn 150.
With 4 we do not and only spawn at 804 on turn 158.
If we do 3,3,3,3,4,4 during the GA and 4 beyond we still get that GP at turn 159 on 804 GPP from FH.

Will check.

- Worker South of GV
Is building a Cottage on grass :( Plains would have been SO MUCH better. At +9 food we need to use that food....

City is losing production due to unhappiness -- should shift from grass farms for more hammers, at least until we get more happiness here. As for the grass cottage -- we are going to be cottaging lots of tiles.

- Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

Will check this as well.

- JH
Christo... when do we need it?? Not for a while yet I think??
Suggest we swap the Engineer for a scientist (for 1 turn) and non-build the Heroic epic 1 turn
Then re-hire the engineer and non-build National Epic one turn.
Trooper > Trooper
R&R ?

Really like the non-builds of HE and NE -- we will need the cash. If we do non-build the HE, though, it should be now. Sleeps should build it ASAP to boost unit production.

- Sleeps
After growing a pop and working a preserve at 37 base hammers/turn +125% = 83 hammers per turn... NE at 167 is a perfect 2 turn non-build.
Trooper > Dump overflow to Eifel or Trooper or something
NE 2 turns (non-build!)
HE

I like the NE non-build, can do that for 1 turn while JH puts a turn into HE. Then swap to HE. We should not put any hammers into units until the HE is built.

Edit:
I suggest we sell our Maps around for 250 gold all together...

Sounds good -- more cash to fuel our research. :)

KaleLambiek

May 16, 2009, 04:16 PM

1155 at turn 113
1130 at turn 118
1140 at turn 123 (discovery of Chemistry)

From the discovery of Corporation (131) we now need 1188 beakers per turn.
Given that we are effectively not going to be researching a space tech the next three turns... Taking into account we only start that again on turn 135.... We need 1267 beakers per turn. While during our GA we are getting .. 1235 beakers per turn
With 3 changes:
1) GE in CiB fired and send to work the Windmill
2) Fired Scientist in FH to work the windmill
3) +2 Merchants in LM

1237 beakers per turn... The cottages should drive this up considerably :) and with our last 18 - 27 turns in GA things look promissing :)

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 04:34 PM

Except no screenies :(

Well, what screenies would I have taken. Some of Babylonian lands, where Hammurabi shuffled his units around like mad to keep up with our dropping Troopers :D
Would not have been very interesting, as he always had a lot of troops in his city (where 'a lot' is more than the few Troopers we had).

Nothing else was worth showing, and in the final save, everybody can take a look at the situation on the front, revealed by our attacking Airships ...

I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power :) OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

True, keeping him for the Gorge sounds good; as we got the Taj Mahal and its Golden Age, we can swap to Emancipation for free. We only need Cristo when we switch to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage, which is some turns away.

1 would have been enough, or were two so damaged that they both needed to heal??

No, the 2nd Trooper was only a bit damaged, but the only other defender was the XBow. The Mace was still 1 turn away. And I wanted to make sure we would not lose the city. There were a few units roaming around, and if they would all have attacked, 1 injured Trooper would have had problems. Of course, in the end, he retreated them all to his cities :mischief:

I think I will take the 2 xp...

Seems like the 3 of us agree ... and it's the obvious choice, IMHO. But as we got him 1 turn before handing off the save (+1 turn for traveling), I decided to hold on and get the team's opinion.

Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

Yes, it is right, and it is strange. It's a size-1-city quite close to our capital, but still ... :confused:

Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

Which got finally freed up by the conquest of Opis ... the city starved over my whole turnset :(

You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

Yes, I did. The barracks (for 1 promotion) is not needed, but the extra Trooper could be useful as Hammi still has some troops. Although their number diminishes finally ...

But gold sounds good as well!

Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

Hmmm, wasn't in the plan?!

Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

Because that tile also got freed up this turn by the fall of Dur-K :p

Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?

Hmmm, wasn't that planned in JH's turnset already. I didn't even check them :blush:

The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.

:agree: ... after 1 turn of non-build in JH, maybe?!

What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy?

Beeline Assembly Line, for factories?

ChrisFromLux

May 16, 2009, 04:45 PM

That does sound weird. The +3 city cost I can believe, since it is size 1 and not too far from our capital.

Yes, it does. What is weird as well is that I wanted to take another look at the auto-save, but it's gone. I have the auto-saves for every turn, except the last one :confused:

Possible explanations for this strange +1 total expenses though:
215:gold: was at the beginning of the turn, 216:gold: is at the end of the turn. In between, we changed civics and some (1?) attacking units entered our borders in Opis.

haphazard1

May 16, 2009, 06:08 PM

OK, here is version 1.0 of my turnset plan. I aim to play either 7 or 8 turns -- enough time to capture Babylon and 1 additional city. (Unless we have enough paras for 2 stacks after Babylon, then 2 additional cities. :satan:)

Major objectives

- Continue conquest of Hammi, taking Babylon and some other city (Akkad?)
- Convert to Emancipation on last turn of golden age, converting to cottages at JH at same time.

Great People

- GG in Sleeps is settled as an instructor for +2 XP, +3 bpt under Rep
- GE in JH is saved for Three Gorges
- Our next GP is due from JH in 5 turns, with the following odds:

Prophet 60% (to be saved for a later golden age)
Scientist 15% (to be settled in JH for beakers)
Engineer 25% (to be saved for a later golden age, or used for Cristo?)

Research

- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (3 turns, using the overflow from Steam Power)

Diplomacy

- Continue conquest of Hammi - show no mercy! :ar15::run:
- Continue snubbing WK
- Agree to pretty much any non-WK demand except Radio, changing civics, changing religion

Military

Next target is Babylon, combining all our available troopers to capture it quickly.

T0 - Paras in Sippar and Dur-Kur will heal this turn, while the paras who can still move at Opis move into the city. The 7/10 XP trooper at Opis will attack the lone cat NW of the city after it is bombed by a zep; no need to let it damage multiple units, and one para will have to stay behind at Opis anyway.

Other zeps aitstrike the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon. The para in Sleeps airlifts to Dur-Kur.

T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa. If there are no Babylonian units which can reach Sippar, we drop the 2 paras from Sippar and the 3 from Dur-Kur next to Babylon, covering the two forest tiles 1S and 1S1E from the city. Other zeps aitstrike the units outside cities.

Depending on what the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon do, either 2 or 3 or the available paras from Opis also drop next to Babylon, leaving the cat-killer to move into Opis and garrison the city (maybe with 1 other, if the city is threatened).

T2 - 7 or 8 paras attack Babylon, with air support. Unless Hammi moves units out of the city, it does not fall this turn.

T3 - Babylon falls.

T4 - Paras consolidate in Babylon.

T5 - Paras drop against whichever remaining Babylonian city is least defended. If we have enough paras (unlikely, unless cities have 3 or fewer defenders), we could form 2 stacks. But more likely just one stack.

T6 and later - continue taking cities, depending on Hammi's movements.

Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon...not sure what to do with this guy?

Sheila (spare phalanx in SdL) moves to garrison Opis.

Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then 1 turn into Eiffel. Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.
SdL - Put 2 turns into Versailles as non-build gold, then 1 turn into NE. Then more non-build Versailles (do not finish it!), then put non-build hammers into Eiffel. Basically just store gold for the future. (Alternate: build barracks (1 turns), then paras to help the war effort.) Watch happiness, and build an odeon if needed. We only have 1 theater, so Globe is a ways off, if ever.
IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Put 1 turn into Eiffel, then put non-build into Versailles.
BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Put 1 turn into Odeon, then 1 turn into NE, then finish Odeon. Start courthouse.
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (2 turns), then build granary (6 turns). Start courthouse.
GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
Opis - In revolt (3 turns). Then build forge.

Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - SdL
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB
- Non-build Versailles:
T0-1 - SdL
T2 - none
T3-5 - SdL (do not finish it!)
T6-7 - IT
- Non-build Eiffel:
T2 - JH
T5 - IT
T6-7 - SdL

- Keep eye on trade screens for tech sales (if we can get 100+ gold) and resource deals.

Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
DeLorean - watermill current tile, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.
Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.
Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.
Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.

Civics and Religion

Plan to revolt to Emancipation on last turn of golden age. No religious changes expected.

Stopping Conditions

- Any really ugly surprises in war with Hammi which make current objectives impossible
- Being declared upon by anybody

Depending on comments and agreement from the team, I will aim to play sometime on Monday (about 48 hours from now). Let's hear your thoughts and suggestions -- I am sure there are improvements which can be made to the plan. :)

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 02:53 AM

Hmmm, wasn't in the plan?!
I think I remember something about me saying lets insert a Temple, but yes, your plan hasnt got a temple... Yet it seems obvious a temple is smart?

Because that tile also got freed up this turn by the fall of Dur-K
Opis you mean ;)

Seems logical... But lets work that copper mine :D

Hmmm, wasn't that planned in JH's turnset already. I didn't even check them
Because up to now we havent really needed them I think... Even now we only have 1 unhappy citizen that can be cured by a quick temple/Odeon.
On the other hand we are getting closer to the caps... the WB now after the Lab would probably be right timing (JIT)

Beeline Assembly Line, for factories?
Beeline Industrialism for TANKS :)

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 03:12 AM

LOL I hadnt even noticed we crossposted untill I read Chris' reply... think WTF is he on about???

- We are starting to get WW. Grapeville has become unhappy (1 citizen), and Bear Town and Sushi deLuxe only have 1 spare happy. We are going to need more happiness real soon now...like those whales. Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?
Because we havent really needed it... Now is about the right time (after the lab?)

The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.
As per my earlier suggestion, I think we get the 120+ gold we can in JH

If we do want to conquer Joao, we should probably do so immediately after Hammi.
That is a given... Good thing is nothing upgrades to troopers, they do to riffles, but not to troopers. And with tanks on the Horizon vs Riffles its still fun and fast.
In particular since Tanks get CR :)
- Music is available from Hammi, and is also known by HC (but not willing to trade, since we have gone to Rep). I do not think Music is valuable to us, certainly not enough to make a peace deal and delay finishing Hammi by 10 turns.
I agree, our citizens will launch to space without the bliss of music

- GG currently in Sleeps: I think we settle him there as an instructor for the +2 XP and get 5 XP units from our HE city. This should be far more valuable than a super-medic or super-attacker, and also more valuable than a military academy (not that we can build one right now anyway).
I love the smell of a sparkling new CR2 Tanks in the morning

- GE currently in JH: I assume we use him for the Cristo (this turn)? What to do then in JH? Build R&R, about 7 turns or so? The happiness would be nice, boosting our odeons as well. Put turns into Eiffel? Although maybe we hold off on that so we can get some good non-building hammers into it. Just build more paras to accelerate the war effort?
I think we build some non-builds in JH (HE/NE) for some gold. Then 2 or so troopers, maybe 3 to replace an additional loss....
Then start working on R&R and Cristo as well as Levee/factory/Plant offcourse when they become available... And dont forget about SoL :)
And a Theatre to (help) unlock GT as well as cover the Happy problems we will face from chopping the preserves and an Odeon

- Our next GP should come from JH in 5 turns. Current odds:

Prophet 60%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

Prophet gets saved for golden age fodder, presumably? Not sure on the others; engineer maybe for Three Gorges?
Only a scientist I would consider settling, the other two... GP = GA.
GE...

- What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy? Steam Power for faster workers, coal, and levees looks pretty good. Plus it opens up Assembly Line for factories and power. Steel for cannon and Iron Works? Also opens Railroad, but that requires Steam Power as well.
Our workers are busy doing more important things than railroads. We also have Airports which are better than rails to help move (new) troops.
And troopers can city hop using their drop facility... moving up to 6 tiles vs the rail 10.
Dont think we quite need IW available yet, lets get factories first... possibly even tanks first... Then worry about Steel>Railroad.

- Good progress on getting JH ready for the big Emancipation conversion. :) When we do start finishing those cottages, what do we want to put all the chop hammers into? R&R? Paras? Other?
What ever JH is building at the time? R&R and Cristo seem good candidates, R&R in particular or SoL, dont forget SoL...

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 03:26 AM

Will definitely try to squeeze in extra specialists wherever possible during the GA. Or will it only help in selected cities?
Selected cities only... Look at the spreadsheet it goes up FAST.
One thing I seem to have left out of the spreadsheet (I just thought of) is SoL for +1 Specialists in all cities concerned... Not that it will matter THAT much I think... yet back to the drawing board to see just exactly what effect SoL will or will not have...

We could add a barracks here easily enough, if we want to. Depends if we want JH to build some more troops, or spend its time on wonders. Although Sleeps with HE will be turning out paras pretty rapidly.
Yes we can, but do we want/need to Depends ofcourse on how many units we are going to build there... For now though I think SdL has more important goals, among which but not exclusively and in no particular order....
- Non-builds
Versailles, Eifel, NE, maybe SoL for 1 or 2 turns depending on timing.
- Infra
Factory/Plant, Harbor, Airport

City is losing production due to unhappiness -- should shift from grass farms for more hammers, at least until we get more happiness here. As for the grass cottage -- we are going to be cottaging lots of tiles.
LOL Hadnt even considered that... Moving from 2 grass farms to 2 plains forest, changing 3 food for 3 hammers.:goodjob:

I like the NE non-build, can do that for 1 turn while JH puts a turn into HE. Then swap to HE. We should not put any hammers into units until the HE is built.
Well.... The one trooper I build in the queue is to make the total of 12 after that we have 12 troopers and can make 2 stacks... Then we can make some Zeppelins or do some non-building in Sleeps as well untill we can/need to start HE for Tank building (16/17 turns away).

Also getting a Barracks in SdL might enable it to non-build HE as well. Then adds to flexibility with building tanks.

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 04:54 AM

Research
- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (3 turns, using the overflow from Steam Power)
Take note we are in GA, we will lose a lot of beakers once out of GA.
These techs total are 12619 beakers.
During the 6 turn GA we get 6 * 1235 = 7410 beakers
Leaving 5209 / ~850 beakers per turn = 6.12 turns

For a total of 12.12 turns to Assembly line.

3 turns to the start of SoL... sending the chops here seems smart ;)
So we have to find 'something' to do for 3 turns then start SoL
HE > NE > Trooper (2 turn with some overflow) > SoL??

T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa.
Perhaps the mountain just east of Sippar is a good target to ensure the full Line of sight...
Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon...not sure what to do with this guy?
Draw some Zeppelin fire keep alive and ready to transport our GM from LM.

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then 1 turn into Eiffel. Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.
You need to MM this to make sure you dont finish HE. Also perhaps build a trooper in 2 turns HE>NE>Trooper>SoL. Delays SoL 0.5 turns, may or may not be consequential.

SoL is 1005 hammers, at 134 hammers per turn...

Strike that... we need happyness to cover the chopping...
HE > NE > Odeon (1 turn + overflow) > SoL

With 8 chops for 160 raw hammers * 2.75 = 440 hammers. Leaving 1005 - 440 = 565
565 / 134 = 4.21 turns... With the overflow from Odeon in just 4 turns :)
What to build after SoL?

LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.
Why 7 total Merchants? OK... looking at the spreadsheet, pulling forward the GP from LM some turns = a good thing in particular with the upcomming polution of SoL...

Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
Lets try and level Para's at 12 or so...

SdL - Put 2 turns into Versailles as non-build gold, then 1 turn into NE. Then more non-build Versailles (do not finish it!), then put non-build hammers into Eiffel. Basically just store gold for the future. (Alternate: build barracks (1 turns), then paras to help the war effort.) Watch happiness, and build an odeon if needed. We only have 1 theater, so Globe is a ways off, if ever.
We need other infra too... if only to max out possible beakers even if SdL is to be geared to production... Harbor > Airport or so... Getting more beakers now vs more gold later? Hard choice...

IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Put 1 turn into Eiffel, then put non-build into Versailles.
Again... Commerce... we do want more beakers
Airport > Harbor?

BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Put 1 turn into Odeon, then 1 turn into NE, then finish Odeon. Start courthouse.
You seem to have thought this thru to the detail.. LOL 1 turn into NE...
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
How about theatres instead of Odeon's in TR and BT? Enabling GT?

GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.
And work hammers over food....
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Temple > Forge I think... Temple is cheaper, get same hammers... Or atleast out of GA.

Also we can use the happy there :)

Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
If we cannot support the population with the food in Sippar, run 1 or 2 turns all merchants... I dont care about the border pop if we cannot support the pop anyway...

Once babylon is gone (hopefully in time), I count 13 food for pop 7 => Will starve anyways... Just run 8 and 7 Merchants to get the pop in 2 turns and starve to sustainable food at size 6.

Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - SdL
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB
- Non-build Versailles:
T0-1 - SdL
T2 - none
T3-5 - SdL (do not finish it!)
T6-7 - IT
- Non-build Eiffel:
T2 - JH
T5 - IT
T6-7 - SdL
Good addition to the plan... Non-building Eifel though is low priority. And Eifel will be build in JH. Perhaps non-build Versailles instead of Eifel in JH?
Also Airport and Harbor are important...

Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
Why not windmill the Grass jungle hill? (1 west) then 1N Windmill Plains hill??
Dont see a priority for Milling the Desert hill??

DeLorean - watermill current tile, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
The pig is the only pig we have... It is connected via the river, no road needed on the pig!

Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.
NNW I think?

Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.I count that farm to be the last... Did I count the food right? Then again we will want to replace the Tundra hill, so maybe one more farm due east. Then we want preserves (for now) on the western forests to hope for further forest spread and preserves west of the BFC to help spread. Then Lumbermill the forests ultimatly.

Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.
We need some help for Obama, he is to slow (sounds familiar??)

Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)
Chopping sounds good.
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.
Yes... sounds good...

Sleepless

May 17, 2009, 09:03 AM

Finally managed to catch up on the saves :). :goodjob: on the turnset Chrisfrom Lux.

Some thoughts. ;) We certainly need some more troops. If and that is a big if we don't get any more losses 3 or 4 would probably be enough. This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic. We need to get our troops back to optimal health asap. We can also let Ham suicide some troops against him as I doubt he would take much damage in the woods. :) If we do this remember to move the warrior out first though as the xp would be shared. Depending on odds etc we might be able to get anouther GG out of this war for settling anyway.

Tanks. Remember we won't have tanks until plastics. The only oil is offshore of IT and we need plastics for the rig.

WK. Is there any reason we shouldn't trade with him now? The +4 you traded with our worse enemy would be negated by +4 fair trade. Are we going to get any more techs from the AI. Imho this is very unlikely so I would grab his incense now.

The GE I would prefer to use on the Cristo but if we keep him for the 3 gorges thats ok as well. The tech path should be heading towards plastics next anyway.

The cottage chops should go into the SoL in JH especially as we are running rep. Any reason why we won't stay in rep most of the remainder of the game?

I was a bit worried about the AI going into merc but with enviro available hopefully they will stay in that. :)

Other than that the turnset plan seems good haphazard1. :)

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 09:10 AM

Oil is in Portugal :evil:

No rep all game
Because with lots of cottages comming up having Free Speech/Uni suff is going to be so much better than rep.

I disagree with the super healer due to the Airships... They negate the healing effect. We just need to get the troopers up to 80% better they are never going to get due to the Airships.

ChrisFromLux

May 17, 2009, 11:44 AM

This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic.

I disagree with the super healer due to the Airships... They negate the healing effect. We just need to get the troopers up to 80% better they are never going to get due to the Airships.

I am with Kale here. We don't need a Woodie3; Troopers in a forest are too strong for Hammi's units anyway.

If we use the General on a unit, it should be for a Super-Medic, to heal most injuries in 1 turn, even in enemy territory. But settling in SS with 5XP out of the box for every HE-unit we build is certainly the better choice!

The GE I would prefer to use on the Cristo but if we keep him for the 3 gorges thats ok as well.

We don't need the Cristo anytime soon. We can switch to Emancipation for free during this Golden Age, and the next civic's-change is still some turns away. More than enough time to build it manually; having instant/quicker Power in all cities is more important, for more cash, beakers, or whatever ...

Other than that the turnset plan seems good haphazard1. :)

:agree:

haphazard1

May 17, 2009, 02:39 PM

Because up to now we havent really needed them I think... Even now we only have 1 unhappy citizen that can be cured by a quick temple/Odeon.
On the other hand we are getting closer to the caps... the WB now after the Lab would probably be right timing (JIT)

We are not quite in time, although one citizen unhappy is not a big loss. But we definitely need more happiness as quickly as we can get it. I need to recheck the happiness limits at JH -- much more happiness is going to be needed there as we convert to cottages.

Beeline Industrialism for TANKS :)

Tanks require oil, though, so we also need Combustion and one of control of the Portugese oil or Plastics (to use our own oil). That is quite a bit of beakers away yet, so conquest of Portugal will be by paras.

I am thinking beeline Assembly Line, then probably work through the Steel->Railroad->Combustion path, then Industrialism and Plastics (for Three Gorges, and if necessary off-shore oil). But everything past starting Assembly Line will be after my turnset.

Industrialism does reveal aluminum, though, which is important information for us to have. So getting it a bit earlier might be worthwhile.

That is a given... Good thing is nothing upgrades to troopers, they do to riffles, but not to troopers. And with tanks on the Horizon vs Riffles its still fun and fast.
In particular since Tanks get CR :)

Very good point about paras -- they have to be built, and are fairly expensive. So even if we run into some later, they should be few in number.

I agree, our citizens will launch to space without the bliss of music

Poor deprived citizens. :lol: Maybe we can pick it up in trade somewhere, if we are selling techs anyway for whatever cash can be found. We might want to build a cathedral if happiness is an issue (+incense, +2 hammers from AP), although it is unlikely. But having the option would be nice, if it does not cost us anything significant.

Only a scientist I would consider settling, the other two... GP = GA.
GE...

If we get a second GE, I would be tempted to use him for Cristo. Saves a bundle of hammers, which I am sure we can find uses for.

Our workers are busy doing more important things than railroads. We also have Airports which are better than rails to help move (new) troops.
And troopers can city hop using their drop facility... moving up to 6 tiles vs the rail 10.
Dont think we quite need IW available yet, lets get factories first... possibly even tanks first... Then worry about Steel>Railroad.

Good points, but we must have Railroads (for Combustion and maybe Plastics for oil) before tanks.

Selected cities only... Look at the spreadsheet it goes up FAST.
One thing I seem to have left out of the spreadsheet (I just thought of) is SoL for +1 Specialists in all cities concerned... Not that it will matter THAT much I think... yet back to the drawing board to see just exactly what effect SoL will or will not have...

Yes, we should have SoL within this turnset, or very shortly thereafter (depends on exact timing of cottage conversion).

Yes we can, but do we want/need to Depends ofcourse on how many units we are going to build there... For now though I think SdL has more important goals, among which but not exclusively and in no particular order....
- Non-builds
Versailles, Eifel, NE, maybe SoL for 1 or 2 turns depending on timing.
- Infra
Factory/Plant, Harbor, Airport

I am envisioning Sleeps carrying most of the military load, which is why I plan to finish the HE ASAP. SoL non-build...SoL pays off with Rep, so I think building it immediately is too important to delay it for non-builds. We have other multiplies wonders we can non-build, although with a little less control of timing.

On infra...harbors and airports. Are they worth the hammers?

Harbor...53 hammers, or 106 beaker-equivalent. Adds 2-3 cpt in most cities, and gets +110% (with FR and all 4 beaker buildings) for 4.2 - 6.3 bpt, for payback times of 16 - 25 turns. Also adds health from seafood. Conclusion: very much worth it.

Airport...167 hammers, or 334 beaker-equivalent. Adds one TR for 3 or 4 cpt in most cities; with +110% that is 6.3 - 8.4 bpt, for payback times of 40 - 53 turns. We are at turn 132, so that is pushing it close on breakeven. Costs 1 health, adds ability to airlift (especially valuable in IT). Conclusion: worth it, but not hugely so.

Additional positive: harbors and airports are synergystic.
Additional negative: more TRs will mean lower value TRs as we exhaust available foreign trade routes. Hard to say exactly how big this effect will be; if AIs shift to Mercantilism it could hurt us more.

Overall, harbors are definitely worth it, airports probably worth it and do provide airlift flexibility. I will revise the plan a bit to add them, but this will mean less non-build gold. And we are going to need more gold to keep our slider at full, especially if we do not get another GM.

LOL Hadnt even considered that... Moving from 2 grass farms to 2 plains forest, changing 3 food for 3 hammers.:goodjob:

At least until we get more happiness in the city.

Well.... The one trooper I build in the queue is to make the total of 12 after that we have 12 troopers and can make 2 stacks... Then we can make some Zeppelins or do some non-building in Sleeps as well untill we can/need to start HE for Tank building (16/17 turns away).

We only have 9 paras right now, 10 with the queued one in Sleeps. We are almost out of non-para units to handle garrison duty, as well, which will tie up more paras defending cities against recapture. With the need for Steel->Railroad->Combustion (and maybe Plastics) to get oil, tanks are a lot more than 16-17 turns away; in fact, we are going to need to conquer Joao (if we do) with paras.

I think it is important that we keep cranking out paras, at least 6-8 more, to replace losses and build our force up to 2-stack level. We may want to consider building some cheaper units as well (xbows, anyone?) to serve as back-line garrisons and free up paras to stay on the attack. Some of our lower hammer cities can crank a few of these out, as they will not need barracks.

Also getting a Barracks in SdL might enable it to non-build HE as well. Then adds to flexibility with building tanks.

HE is going to be finished too soon for much non-building. We need to maximize hammers from Sleeps.

Take note we are in GA, we will lose a lot of beakers once out of GA.
These techs total are 12619 beakers.
During the 6 turn GA we get 6 * 1235 = 7410 beakers
Leaving 5209 / ~850 beakers per turn = 6.12 turns

For a total of 12.12 turns to Assembly line.

You are correct...we should get through Steam Power as the GA ends, then Assembly Line will take more time.

Draw some Zeppelin fire keep alive and ready to transport our GM from LM.

Good idea, I will see if I can draw some fire. :)

You need to MM this to make sure you dont finish HE. Also perhaps build a trooper in 2 turns HE>NE>Trooper>SoL. Delays SoL 0.5 turns, may or may not be consequential.

SoL is 1005 hammers, at 134 hammers per turn...

Strike that... we need happyness to cover the chopping...
HE > NE > Odeon (1 turn + overflow) > SoL

Happiness, yes. :( I will need to adjust plans in JH for the coming deforestation.

With 8 chops for 160 raw hammers * 2.75 = 440 hammers. Leaving 1005 - 440 = 565
565 / 134 = 4.21 turns... With the overflow from Odeon in just 4 turns :)
What to build after SoL?

That will help get SoL done fast, which is good -- lots of Rep beakers for us. :)

Need to update the plan for specialist changes as we revolt out of Caste...ack. Need to revise....

Why 7 total Merchants? OK... looking at the spreadsheet, pulling forward the GP from LM some turns = a good thing in particular with the upcomming polution of SoL...

Mostly just to get the extra GPP during the GA. We might need the flexibility later, and can always run fewer if we need to get another city to spawn first.

Lets try and level Para's at 12 or so...

Which is 3 more than we have now. And we need more, or else 12 paras plus more cheap units for garrison duty. Not sure about building these in Sleeps with HE...might end up generating overflow gold. Maybe if I alternate paras and xbows?

We need other infra too... if only to max out possible beakers even if SdL is to be geared to production... Harbor > Airport or so... Getting more beakers now vs more gold later? Hard choice...

Again... Commerce... we do want more beakers
Airport > Harbor?

See my calcs above. Harbors and airports, yes, but it means less non-build gold. We are going to run out of our current GM trade mission horde in the not-too-distant future, although city pillage and trade gold will help extend it.

How about theatres instead of Odeon's in TR and BT? Enabling GT?

A good point, I will go for theaters to unlock GT before odeons. Will have to check if I can get enough to unlock GT before SdL needs more happiness.

If we cannot support the population with the food in Sippar, run 1 or 2 turns all merchants... I dont care about the border pop if we cannot support the pop anyway...

Once we pop borders we can support the pop on coastal tiles. We might starve 1 pop for the turn to expand the border, but that should be all.

Why not windmill the Grass jungle hill? (1 west) then 1N Windmill Plains hill??
Dont see a priority for Milling the Desert hill??

Mostly because we can get a windmill up faster without needing to chop+mill. We need more improved tiles fast.

The pig is the only pig we have... It is connected via the river, no road needed on the pig!

Ah, you are correct. With that "road" sign up, I did not notice that little stub of a river. :lol:

NNW I think?

I was using "NW" in the generic sense. :D

I count that farm to be the last... Did I count the food right? Then again we will want to replace the Tundra hill, so maybe one more farm due east. Then we want preserves (for now) on the western forests to hope for further forest spread and preserves west of the BFC to help spread. Then Lumbermill the forests ultimatly.

OK, so the current farm and maybe 1 more, then preserves.

Some thoughts. ;) We certainly need some more troops. If and that is a big if we don't get any more losses 3 or 4 would probably be enough. This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic. We need to get our troops back to optimal health asap. We can also let Ham suicide some troops against him as I doubt he would take much damage in the woods. :) If we do this remember to move the warrior out first though as the xp would be shared. Depending on odds etc we might be able to get anouther GG out of this war for settling anyway.

With the airship strikes, the healing is less useful, and getting 2 promos on units from Sleeps (soon with HE) will be quite valuable so I prefer the instructor. We will get another GG eventually, and a super-medic may be the right thing to do with that one.

Tanks. Remember we won't have tanks until plastics. The only oil is offshore of IT and we need plastics for the rig.

Agreed, tanks are a fair ways off yet. Of course, once we do get oil we can build fighters and bombers, if we feel the need for them.

WK. Is there any reason we shouldn't trade with him now? The +4 you traded with our worse enemy would be negated by +4 fair trade. Are we going to get any more techs from the AI. Imho this is very unlikely so I would grab his incense now.

WK is still the worse enemy of HC and Stalin, but it is a good question. The only way we will ever get another tech from the AI (other than Music, anyway) is if we gift them all 5-8 techs to get them to our current level. And if we do that, there will be no easy overseas wars for gold and wonders if we decide to do that later. In fact, the AIs might actually be able to threaten us, or do something annoying like build the UN and mess up our civics.

So Sleepless is correct that maybe we start trading with WK -- get more trade routes, get incense. We might end up annoying Stalin enough for him to declare on us, but is that really a problem?

I am with Kale here. We don't need a Woodie3; Troopers in a forest are too strong for Hammi's units anyway.

If we use the General on a unit, it should be for a Super-Medic, to heal most injuries in 1 turn, even in enemy territory. But settling in SS with 5XP out of the box for every HE-unit we build is certainly the better choice!

OK, the general opinion seems to favor the instructor for 5 XP units from Sleeps.

I will get an updated plan posted in a bit. Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming. :)

haphazard1

May 17, 2009, 03:18 PM

OK, here is version 1.1 of my turnset plan. I aim to play either 7 or 8 turns -- enough time to capture Babylon and 1 additional city. (Unless we have enough paras for 2 stacks after Babylon, then 2 additional cities. :satan:)

Main revisions were to add harbors, customs houses, and airports in place of Eiffel and Versailles non-builds. More commerce/gold later, but less non-build gold stored up. We may have gold problems in the next turnset. I did keep the HE and NE non-builds.

Major objectives

- Continue conquest of Hammi, taking Babylon and some other city (Akkad?)
- Convert to Emancipation on last turn of golden age, converting to cottages at JH at same time.

Great People

- GG in Sleeps is settled as an instructor for +2 XP, +3 bpt under Rep
- GE in JH is saved for Three Gorges
- Our next GP is due from JH in 5 turns, with the following odds:

Prophet 60% (to be saved for a later golden age)
Scientist 15% (to be settled in JH for beakers)
Engineer 25% (to be saved for a later golden age, or maybe used for Cristo?)

Research

- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (will not finish this turnset)

Diplomacy

- Continue conquest of Hammi - show no mercy! :ar15::run:
- Stop snubbing WK - trade for his resources and cash; no AI will have any more techs we need
- Agree to pretty much any demand except Radio, changing civics, changing religion

Trades

Trade clam to WK for his sheep. Trade fur to WK for his incense.
Trade clam to Shaka for his 2 gpt. (Alternate - cancel fish for 6 gpt deal and hope to end up with 8 gpt.)

Military

Next target is Babylon, combining all our available troopers to capture it quickly.

T0 - Paras in Sippar and Dur-Kur will heal this turn, while the paras who can still move at Opis move into the city. The 7/10 XP trooper at Opis will attack the lone cat NW of the city after it is bombed by a zep; no need to let it damage multiple units, and one para will have to stay behind at Opis anyway.

Other zeps aitstrike the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon. The para in Sleeps airlifts to Dur-Kur.

T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa. If there are no Babylonian units which can reach Sippar, we drop the 2 paras from Sippar and the 3 from Dur-Kur next to Babylon, covering the two forest tiles 1S and 1S1E from the city. Other zeps aitstrike the units outside cities.

Depending on what the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon do, either 2 or 3 or the available paras from Opis also drop next to Babylon, leaving the cat-killer to move into Opis and garrison the city (maybe with 1 other, if the city is threatened).

T2 - 7 or 8 paras attack Babylon, with air support. Unless Hammi moves units out of the city, it does not fall this turn.

T3 - Babylon falls.

T4 - Paras consolidate in Babylon.

T5 - Paras drop against whichever remaining Babylonian city is least defended. If we have enough paras (unlikely, unless cities have 3 or fewer defenders), we could form 2 stacks. But more likely just one stack.

T6 and later - continue taking cities, depending on Hammi's movements.

Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon will attempt to draw Hammi's airships into attacking it rather than our paras.

Sheila (spare phalanx in SdL) moves to garrison Opis. 3 XP xbow from BT also moves toward Hammi to garrison a soon-to-be-captured city (Babylon?).

Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then build theater (1 turn). Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.
SdL - Build harbor (1 turn), then start Customs House for 1 turn only. Then put 1 turn into NE. Then finish customs house (2 turns), then build airport (3 turns). Watch happiness, but try to avoid building an odeon. We will have 6 theaters by the end of the turnset, so Globe will be available.
IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Build harbor (2 turns), then start customs house (3 turns).
BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then 1 turn into NE, then build Odeon. Once done, start courthouse.
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (1 turn), then build theater (3 turns). Start library.
GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Put 1 turn non-build into NE. Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
Opis - In revolt (3 turns). Then build forge.

Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - GV
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB

- Keep eye on trade screens for tech sales (if we can get 100+ gold) and resource deals.

Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
DeLorean - watermill current tile., then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.
Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.
Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.
Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.

Civics and Religion

Plan to revolt to Emancipation on last turn of golden age. No religious changes expected.

Specialists

When we swap to Emancipation on the last turn of the golden age, a lot of specialists will have to be reshuffled. We want to maintain our overall GPP rates as much as we can, so we will have to run whatever slots we have available.

LM - By time of swap will have 4 merchant slots, 2 scientist slots, 1 engineer slot, and 1 spy slot. After swap will run primarily merchants, adding an engineer and then scientists if more specialists are needed/desired.
FH - Has no slots currently. Will have theater in time for 2 artist slots at swap; extras will be put to working the 3-food lake tiles. Once library is complete, add 2 scientists.

Stopping Conditions

- Any really ugly surprises in war with Hammi which make current objectives impossible
- Being declared upon by anybody

Depending on comments and agreement from the team, I will aim to play sometime on Monday (about 20 hours from now). Your thoughts and suggestions are most welcome!

ChrisFromLux

May 17, 2009, 03:59 PM

OK, here is version 1.1 of my turnset plan.

Looks good :goodjob:

Trade clam to Shaka for his 2 gpt. (Alternate - cancel fish for 6 gpt deal and hope to end up with 8 gpt.)

That is the trade I did during my turnset, no? Would mean it cannot be canceled for another ~6 turns?

Western galleon will attempt to draw Hammi's airships into attacking it rather than our paras.

That's why I moved it there ... won't draw more than 1 Airship per turn, but that means 1 less Trooper injured. And it should work, as the AI loves to bombard ships, for some reason!

KaleLambiek

May 17, 2009, 11:25 PM

Good points, but we must have Railroads (for Combustion and maybe Plastics for oil) before tanks.
What I am saying, Railroads is not priority #1...

Yes, we should have SoL within this turnset, or very shortly thereafter (depends on exact timing of cottage conversion).
Well with some management we can delay SoL start by a turn and not delay it... To late now to manage it... but nicely possible using overflow. Agree we want it asap.

On infra...harbors and airports. Are they worth the hammers?

Harbor...53 hammers, or 106 beaker-equivalent. Adds 2-3 cpt in most cities, and gets +110% (with FR and all 4 beaker buildings) for 4.2 - 6.3 bpt, for payback times of 16 - 25 turns. Also adds health from seafood. Conclusion: very much worth it.

Airport...167 hammers, or 334 beaker-equivalent. Adds one TR for 3 or 4 cpt in most cities; with +110% that is 6.3 - 8.4 bpt, for payback times of 40 - 53 turns. We are at turn 132, so that is pushing it close on breakeven. Costs 1 health, adds ability to airlift (especially valuable in IT). Conclusion: worth it, but not hugely so.
This is not completely right IMHO. At some point we are going to have enough cash (I hope) to run 100% all game. This point we havent reached yet... but... at some point I hope we do. At that point we start building research = 1:1, as long as we convert better than 1:1 we build them IMHO.
I will revise the plan a bit to add them, but this will mean less non-build gold. And we are going to need more gold to keep our slider at full, especially if we do not get another GM.
Yes less non-build gold, but more beakers. Hopefully we wont need the gold ;)

Right now though, if we put every city -baring Sleeps and JH- to gold building we would get +56 GPT... thought this is during a GA... We will also have SoL soon for ~8 merchants +24gpt... non-build gold is icing on the cake IMHO, while beakers = commerce are TOP priority I think.

Also we have the grocer and bank comming in LM for 10 and 20 GPT

I think it is important that we keep cranking out paras, at least 6-8 more, to replace losses and build our force up to 2-stack level. We may want to consider building some cheaper units as well (xbows, anyone?) to serve as back-line garrisons and free up paras to stay on the attack. Some of our lower hammer cities can crank a few of these out, as they will not need barracks.
I was counting on building 2 in JH, but that doesnt seem possible :(
XBows would be nice... but where do we slot them in?

I think Assembly line obsoleets XBows? Or does it?

Which is 3 more than we have now. And we need more, or else 12 paras plus more cheap units for garrison duty. Not sure about building these in Sleeps with HE...might end up generating overflow gold. Maybe if I alternate paras and xbows? Also need Zeppelins... And getting overflow gold at 100% bonus is not a bad deal!

Once we pop borders we can support the pop on coastal tiles. We might starve 1 pop for the turn to expand the border, but that should be all.
On 1 food coastal tiles... I count 4 food Clams 2 food CC 2 food Watermill = 8 food size 2
5 tiles 1 food = 5 food total, for 13 food.
7 pop needs 14 food to feed?? Or am I missing something?

Mostly because we can get a windmill up faster without needing to chop+mill. We need more improved tiles fast.
Desert means improvements take longer to build we only gain 2 turns vs the grass hill (and 1 turn moving)
But we are going to be chopping anyway (the second grass hill). I either case if we go Grass or plains hills... they either give +1 food or +1 hammer....

Ah, you are correct. With that "road" sign up, I did not notice that little stub of a river.
This is why we plan and discuss in detail :)

With the airship strikes, the healing is less useful, and getting 2 promos on units from Sleeps (soon with HE) will be quite valuable so I prefer the instructor. We will get another GG eventually, and a super-medic may be the right thing to do with that one.
And with 2 promotions he is his own medic, healing 50% upon promoting

WK is still the worse enemy of HC and Stalin, but it is a good question. The only way we will ever get another tech from the AI (other than Music, anyway) is if we gift them all 5-8 techs to get them to our current level. And if we do that, there will be no easy overseas wars for gold and wonders if we decide to do that later. In fact, the AIs might actually be able to threaten us, or do something annoying like build the UN and mess up our civics.

So Sleepless is correct that maybe we start trading with WK -- get more trade routes, get incense. We might end up annoying Stalin enough for him to declare on us, but is that really a problem?
We already have OBs with WK, this doesnt constitute trading.... Starting resource trades will trigger "stop trading with" demands/requests causing relations to deteriorate fast.

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 12:11 AM

About the GM from LM, doing 7/7/7/6/6/6 will not hurt our GPs at all, but does preserve 9 food for future growth.

Main revisions were to add harbors, customs houses, and airports in place of Eiffel and Versailles non-builds. More commerce/gold later, but less non-build gold stored up. We may have gold problems in the next turnset. I did keep the HE and NE non-builds.
Custom Houses... Didnt consider those :(
At a 120 hammers with +1 commerce on 4 traderoutes 30 turns to pay off as well as the added build time... Build queues are getting quite full ....
Trades

Trade clam to WK for his sheep. Trade fur to WK for his incense.
Not sure about trading with WK due to the "stop trading" requests... Losing the traderoutes too if we think we want to stop... If we do trade, what is wrong with Fish for Incense?

Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then [COLOR="Red"]build theater (1 turn). Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.Remember HE needs some MM not to finish in JH!!! Change the Engineer for a Scientist for 1 turn

What to build post SoL?? Troopers? R&R?

LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.7,7,7,6,6,6

Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.
We may want to put as much non-build int NE as possible?? before starting it in CiB.
SdL - Build harbor (1 turn), then start Customs House for 1 turn only. Then put 1 turn into NE. Then finish customs house (2 turns), then build airport (3 turns). Watch happiness, but try to avoid building an odeon. We will have 6 theaters by the end of the turnset, so Globe will be available.
This whole +% traderoute commerce thing is a farce though!!
i.e. SdL is getting -base- 1.1, 1, 1 Traderoutes at +290% traderoute yield.
Which means now: 3.19,2.9, 2.9
+50% Harbor: 3.75, 3.4, 3.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 4.29, 3.9, 3.9 (+1 commerce)

Now adding 2 pop to SdL = adding 2 * 5% for pop on our side would make it 3.3, 3, 3
+50% 3.85, 3.5, 3.5 (0 gain)
+100% 4.4, 4, 4 (+3 commerce)

i.e. A harbor without customs is near useless :( baring the health boost... +3 commerce (+6 beakers) for 173 hammers = 29 turns
If we marbalize the hammers to 346 gold that is 58 turns

That is cutting it pretty damn close... Perhaps your gold building was better? :crazyeye:

TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
TR has 2 happy to spare and get 2 more from temple and theatre (dye) Perhaps Lib > Uni > Odeon? Or atleast put Odeon of untill we actually need it JIT?

FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (1 turn), then build theater (3 turns). Start library.
What no granary for poor FH? Oh wait... we have to keep the specialists at work :D
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Perhaps the plains farm instead of the copper mine? Get to max pop ASAP.
Also temple first, same hammers, cheaper and + happy.

Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
Please check this, but 13 food is not enough to feed 7 pop.
Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
Already discussed
DeLorean - watermill current tile., then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
Erm Cottage??? What pop is going to work it? Perhaps the (other) riverside otherwize preserves while we run Enviro that is a happy...

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 12:13 AM

That's why I moved it there ... won't draw more than 1 Airship per turn, but that means 1 less Trooper injured. And it should work, as the AI loves to bombard ships, for some reason!

Remember for it to draw fire, it must heal every turn and preferably be coastal. At -20% it is less powerfull than a Caravel..

ChrisFromLux

May 18, 2009, 12:43 AM

Remember for it to draw fire, it must heal every turn and preferably be coastal. At -20% it is less powerfull than a Caravel..

No problem! Just have it sit somewhere on the southern coast of Babylon, outside Hammurabi's culture but inside reach of his Airships. Even if it doesn't completely heal every turn, it can still be damaged a bit every turn.

Hammurabi only has 1 ship, IIRC, a Galley in his western city, and we don't need our Galleon anytime soon, except if we get another Great Merchant. No danger ...

JerichoHill

May 18, 2009, 07:40 AM

Okay, I reviewed the turnset plan, and I think I like it. I would like to see SoL built during this set, and Babylon taken and the war with Ham winding down.

FYI for the team: On Friday, I depart to St. Maarten for 2 weeks of vacation at our home near there. I will still be chiming in once a day and may still be able to take my turnsets, but I won't know the logistics until I am down there. I've needed this vacation!

ChrisFromLux

May 18, 2009, 08:32 AM

FYI for the team: On Friday, I depart to St. Maarten for 2 weeks of vacation at our home near there. I will still be chiming in once a day and may still be able to take my turnsets, but I won't know the logistics until I am down there. I've needed this vacation!

I guess you earned that vacation!

Have fun!!! :beer:

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 11:02 AM

This whole +% traderoute commerce thing is a farce though!!
ie SdL is getting -base- 1.1, 1, 1 Traderoutes at +290% traderoute yield.
Which means now: 3.19,2.9, 2.9
+50% Harbor: 3.75, 3.4, 3.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 4.29, 3.9, 3.9 (+1 commerce)

Now adding 2 pop to SdL = adding 2 * 5% for pop on our side would make it 3.3, 3, 3
+50% 3.85, 3.5, 3.5 (0 gain)
+100% 4.4, 4, 4 (+3 commerce)

ie A harbor without customs is near useless baring the health boost... +3 commerce (+6 beakers) for 173 hammers = 29 turns
If we marbalize the hammers to 346 gold that is 58 turns

That is cutting it pretty damn close... Perhaps your gold building was better?
There is a mistake in this somehow... actually 2 mistakes...
Which means now: 4.29,3.9, 3.9
+50% Harbor: 4.84, 4.4, 4.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 5.94, 5.4, 5.4 (+3 commerce)

Offcourse a Airport adds +1 commerce to the Harbor, and +1 to the Customs...

Adding 2 pop in SdL would make it 4.4, 4, 4
+ 50% 4.95, 4.5, 4.5 (0 gain :mad:, gotta love the rounding!)
+100% 6.05, 5.5, 5.5 (+4 commerce)

The airport in this case gets +1 commerce overall (on top of the 3 of the stand-alone airport). If the originating city goes over 10 pop (no way to control that) and we grow 2 pop compared to current (in SdL).
Then we get 1.1 base + 450% = 6.05 for all traderoutes or +3 with the airport, assuming the originating cities grows to 11 pop.
4 Commerce gain...
173/4 = 43.25 turns
173/8.4 = 20.5 turns (+110% beakers)
346/8.4 = 41.2 turns (Marbalized gold +110% beakers)

Still 9 commerce or 18.9 beakers (+110%) for Airport (4) /Harbor (0) /Customs (5) per turn...
In 40 turns, to allow them to be build in ~20 turns, 18.9 * 40 = 756 beakers
In 2 cities (SdL/IT)? 2 * 756 = 1512 = 1.25 turn of research... (currently)... should be a 75%? turn by end game? (doing 2000 beakers per turn at the end?)

Sleepless

May 18, 2009, 12:55 PM

Just another couple of thoughts. :)

Globe Theatre? If we build it shouldn't it go into FH instead of SdL. Certainly FH needs a couple of workshops asap as well to help build its infra faster. Then can be changed to cottages.

Airports? With our having a lot more cities soon :) we will run out of foreign trade routes so more important to go in coastal cities rather than inland ones for the improved trade income. There might come a time when it will be worth building another offshore city for the continental routes. Especially if we attack Joao.

Happiness? Another reason for building the Cristo earlier. If we want we can swap back into OR get a few missionaries out then back to FR. We can also swap between conf and nsr at will as well so 25% building bonus would come in handy at the same time. :)

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 02:32 PM

Globe in FH vs SdL...
For SdL max out Moaui... FH with its food is an option... But what is our gain?
I count 12 land tiles we want to definatly work later on... Pop 12 should be quite easy to support, even now we have 10 pop there without a Theatre or Odeon or Hitsingles/Broadcast tower...
What would be the benifit of Globe in FH? I can be persuaded, but ... for now I dont see the benifit.

Off continent city... There is a 1 tile island of the coast due SW of SdL. Building it may well prove worth while... We havent run out of traderoutes yet, but in particular if we start conquesting WK and/or HC.... we will get short on traderoutes... Dont know if the added city will pay off though...
An added traderoute is an added traderoute, though if it is only 2 commerce.... How much will that yield? Good point... When will that point be reached? Dont know... Are you arguing for or against Airports Sleepless??

I would prefer to stay in FR the rest of the game for +10% beakers. If we run out of cash maybe we can run a few turn 0% to build cash in OR to go back to FR for research...

We are paying 42 distance maintenance now... FP in Babylon will help contain that... :)

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 02:38 PM

We currenly have 1567 gold at - 143g
We have 5 more Hammi cities to conquer for 500 more gold.

This should carry us 10 turns (atleast) at which time we know if we have the GM from LM or not and/or how much gold building we need to do to stay at 100%. With the GM we will have another 1500 gold and/or capturing more cities (from Joao who has meantime build Versailles!) should keep us afloat.

Together with the 30 GPT from LM (Grocer/bank) and non-builds... -we have some 300 gold in non-builds planned right now- ... and some "map gold" from the AI...
We should be good for I think atleast 20 turns, that is without the GM from LM.... erm I hope :)

haphazard1

May 18, 2009, 03:42 PM

Out of all this discussion, what is the verdict on harbors/customs houses/airports? I think harbors are worthwhile at least, not being all that many hammers and adding health (SdL will need more health as it continues to grow).

Exhausting available foreign trade routes is a concern, but the assignment is supposed to provide the best overall result including TR-boosting effects. If any cities get shorted, it will be inland, smaller cities.

On the Globe in SdL or FH, how is FH supposed to actually build the Globe? It is going to take 7-8 turns in SdL with all those hammers...FH would never get it built in time to be useful.

Kale and Sleepless, good points about tile improvements at FH. Do we want a couple of workshops there? Some preserves? The theater (and soon after an odeon), plus more resource deals for incense, hit singles, whale should keep it happy enough for the near future.

No one has objected loudly on the idea of trading with WK, although there were some worries expressed about the diplo impact. I can certainly hold off on this, although the incense would be useful if WW continues to rise. Hopefully taking Babylon and knocking out the SoZ effect will keep that under control.

Have a good time on your vacation, JH! Drop us a note from time to time if you can, just to let us know how much fun you are having. :lol:

General opinion on the plan seems to be a go. Wish me luck!

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 18, 2009, 04:11 PM

Off continent city... There is a 1 tile island of the coast due SW of SdL. Building it may well prove worth while... We havent run out of traderoutes yet, but in particular if we start conquesting WK and/or HC.... we will get short on traderoutes... Dont know if the added city will pay off though...

If we want a 1 tile island... why not :ar15: Atlantis?

haphazard1

May 18, 2009, 08:13 PM

OK, turnset done, played 8 turns. Not everything went as planned, but mostly good news.

T132 (inherited turn)

- Cancelled and resigned fish deal with Shaka, boosting from 6 to 8 gpt
- Trade spare clam to Stalin for sheep
- Sold our map around for 245 gold (Shaka would only give 75 of his 80)
- Stalin has enough on his hands...probably WK, but who knows?
- Settle the GG in Sleeps, make other adjustments as discussed

T133

- Printing Press in, start Democracy
- Hammi revolts to Theo, moves a ton of units into Babylon. :( This would become a repeating theme, unfortunately.
- Our valiant galleon sinks one barb galley by Atlantis; the other barb attacks and withdraws. We limp home, badly damaged.

T134

- Confu spreads in IT :)
- Sell Aesthetics to Stalin for 70 gold, as everyone else already knew it.
- Joao has Music now. HC is still researching Rifling, WK's tech now visible as Feudalism
- Our paras kill 6 defenders in Babylon with no losses. 6 more left, but 4 other Hammi units are near the city.

T135

- Democracy in, Steam Power started
- HE completed in Sleeps, start more paras. We need them badly.
- Babylon up to 11 defenders, as Hammi keeps shuffling more and more units into the city. :( Kill 4 more, but our paras are damaged. Some are healing. I am moving the medic xbow from near SdL to the stack to speed healing.

T136

- Got 132 gold from the HE non-build in JH. :)
- Taoism is spread to JH by Joao - thanks!
- A forest grows west of LM, we can put another preserve if we want.
- Final GP odds in JH:

Prophet 56%
Artist 4%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

- Babylon gets 2 more reinforcements, up to 9. We lose 1 para at 95% odds, not even scratching the sword (!!!). :mad:

T137

- Shaka asks us to declare on WK. I agree, as we are not trading with him (I have held off due to the worries expressed about diplo) and Stalin has enough on his hands and will probably join.
- Steam Power complete, start Assembly Line. Coal is revealed in the fat cross at JH (should we mine? or cottage as planned?) and between SdL and TR. Worker sent to get it ready, although we may not want to connect it just yet due to health reasons.
- Sell Drama around for 150 gold (Stalin 40, Joao 30, Shaka 80 + his map)
- JH spawns a prophet, who is put to sleep to wait for a golden age.
- Joao got a GM. We need to watch and see if we can trade for gold if he uses it for a trade mission.
- This is the last turn of the golden age, so I revolt to Emancipation and start converting to cottages at JH. Not all can be converted, as we are struggling with happiness due to WW. But I convert as many forests as possible, and also the watermill and windmills. We are getting 1341 bpt this final GA turn. :)
- Babylon further reinforces up to 13 (!!!) defenders. All paras healing, no attacks this turn.

T138

- A spy destroyed progress on the forge in Opis.
- An AP vote to stop the war against Hammi: needs 138 of 224 to pass. I vote no, as we should have enough to block.
- Cancel and resign fur deal with Joao (7 to 9 gpt) and corn deal with HC (4 to 6 gpt).
- HC has finished Rifling, and is now researching Rocketry! :D If we can get him to trade it...thousands of beakers saved. We may need to do something to get him back to friendly. I check if he will join the war on WK, but he will not.
- WK is now working on Guilds.
- Babylon at 13 defenders; we get 7 kills, but lose two paras at 89% and 88% odds. :(

T139

- The AP vote fails. Needed 140 of 226, got 106 (92 Hammi, 4 Joao, 10 Shaka). Our 120 votes were for No, obviously.
- WW increasing steadily, JH and GV with 1 unhappy, SdL with 2.
- Babylon reinforced to 9 defenders, get 4 kills.

T140

- Assembly Line finished, start Steel. No beakers invested yet, can change.
- LM spawns a great merchant (88% odds)! :woohoo: He begins journey to SdL to meet our western galleon, which stops drawing fire and heads to SdL.
- Joao's GM is spotted near FH, heading north! Watch every turn, and hope to trade for his cash. :please:
- A GG is born in Sleeps from the fighting at Babylon. Maybe a super-medic? We were badly slowed by the need to heal in enemy territory, even with a regular medic.
- Babylon has 6 defenders...and all are killed with no further losses! :hammer: Oddly, there is no pop-up about gold. :confused: Just straight into the "what do you want to build here" screen. I hope we got some gold. :confused:
- WW drops from 393 (just before the city fell) to 222 after capturing the SoZ. Next turn some of the WW will disappear. It is hitting 5 cities at the moment.

A few items:

- We have EP going to Shaka to try to see his research. Once we can, shift EP again.
- CiB has 6 preserves up. I have moved an xbow to cover a worker to build another on the border with Hammi. Wiping out Akkad would be useful so we can finish the last 2 safely.
- A couple workers are unmoved, one on the JH coal so we can decide what to do with it.
- The other coal is roaded and 1 turn from a mine. We may want to wait until coal is needed, to avoid health hits from factories.
- Even with our paras, Shaka has more power than we do. No reports of WK losing cities yet, though.

Sorry for the slow progress against Hammi, but he was throwing more and more units into Babylon. Maybe I should have built one or two trebs to reduce the defenses, but I kept Sleeps building paras (and 1 rifle to defend Opis and free up a para). Our force needs a turn or three to heal, but we will then have plenty to hit Hammi's remaining cities.

Mastiff is now UP to continue the war and finish the SoL.
Sleepless is on deck.

Save is uploaded. I will attach the logs in following posts.

haphazard1

May 18, 2009, 08:14 PM

Turnset log:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1420 AD to 1500 AD:

Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.76)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 92.6%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (74/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (56/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (58/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (32/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (8/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.28) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (10.95)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 93.3%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +105%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (57/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (31/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (5/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have captured Opis!!!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles adopts Representation!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles adopts Free Religion!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (14.16) vs Hammurabi'sCatapult (5.00)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Catapult!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Food Heaven. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 132, 1420 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Grapeville. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Hammurabi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.40) vs Pericles'sGalleon (4.80)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.20) vs Pericles'sGalleon (2.11)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Combat Odds: 71.5%
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon is hit for 15 (29/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 1420 AD: Pericles's Galleon has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 133, 1430 AD: Confucianism has spread in Island Town.
Turn 133, 1430 AD: The borders of Food Heaven have expanded!

Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (23.76) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (12.00)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 97.6%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (48/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.60) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.60)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 92.8%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (75/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.12) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (11.70)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 93.2%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (66/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (52/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.12) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (11.45)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 93.6%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (66/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (52/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (56/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (29/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (38/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (2/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.28) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (11.10)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 94.5%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (16.56) vs Hammurabi'sPikeman (12.00)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Combat Odds: 86.7%
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (54/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (39/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 134, 1440 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Pikeman!
Turn 134, 1440 AD: You have discovered Democracy!

Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (20.88) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (14.40)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Combat Odds: 88.1%
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (71/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (55/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (39/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (18.96) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.60)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (64/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (49/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (20.06) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (11.10)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Combat Odds: 95.1%
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 13 (63/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 13 (50/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 13 (37/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (18.21) vs Hammurabi'sLongbowman (10.45)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Combat Odds: 89.5%
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (56/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (29/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (55/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (2/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Hammurabi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Longbowman!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Jericho's Hill can no longer work on Heroic Epic. The lost ? is converted into 132?!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: The borders of Opis have expanded!
Turn 135, 1450 AD: Taoism has spread in Jericho's Hill.

Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.20) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (12.00)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Combat Odds: 95.3%
Turn 136, 1460 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (65/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (50/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (35/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (20/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (5/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman has defeated Pericles's Paratrooper!
Turn 136, 1460 AD: You have discovered Steam Power!
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Rabbi Akiva (Great Prophet) has been born in Jericho's Hill (Pericles)!
Turn 136, 1460 AD: The borders of Sippar have expanded!
Turn 136, 1460 AD: Shaka has declared war on Wang Kon!
Turn 136, 1460 AD: John Maynard Keynes (Great Merchant) has been born in Guimarães (Joao II)!

Turn 137, 1470 AD: You have declared war on Wang Kon!
Turn 137, 1470 AD: Pericles adopts Emancipation!
Turn 137, 1470 AD: Pericles's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 137, 1470 AD: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Stalin)!

Turn 138, 1480 AD: Deal Canceled: Fur to Joao II for Gold Per Turn (7)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Deal Canceled: Corn to Huayna Capac for Gold Per Turn (4)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-16% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-16% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-16% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 16 ? for Island Town.
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (22.80) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (14.40)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 97.5%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (80/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (65/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (22.80) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.60)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 98.0%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (80/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (65/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (21.91) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (13.10)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 93.9%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (59/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (68/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (53/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (34/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (38/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (23/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (9/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (18.96) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (12.76)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 89.0%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (60/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (63/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (36/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (47/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (31/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (12/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (15/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman has defeated Pericles's Paratrooper!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has died trying to attack a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (18.48) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (12.76)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 88.2%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (59/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (34/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman has defeated Pericles's Paratrooper!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has died trying to attack a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.76) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (12.76)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 87.0%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (60/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (36/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (12/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (16.56) vs Hammurabi'sCrossbowman (10.80)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 85.7%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (55/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (41/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (27/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Crossbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Crossbowman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.68) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (12.30)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 87.9%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (52/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (37/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (15.60) vs Hammurabi'sPikeman (11.70)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Pikeman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Island Town has grown to size 13
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Two Rivers has grown to size 11
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Food Heaven has grown to size 9
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Dur-Kurigalzu has grown to size 6
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Stalin's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Will Scarlett was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-15% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Friar Tuck was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-7% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Crossbowman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-18% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-17% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Galleon was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-5% Damage)
Turn 138, 1480 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-12% Damage)

Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Pikeman! (-18% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Pikeman! (-18% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Pikeman! (-18% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (17.76) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (10.50)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Combat Odds: 96.1%
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (60/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (46/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (32/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (18/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.68) vs Hammurabi'sSwordsman (10.20)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Swordsman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Swordsman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.68) vs Hammurabi'sPikeman (9.59)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 28 (54/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 28 (26/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Pikeman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (15.60) vs Hammurabi'sPikeman (9.10)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Combat Odds: 92.4%
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 27 (55/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (51/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 14 (37/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 27 (28/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 27 (1/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Pikeman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: You have discovered Assembly Line!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Adam Smith (Great Merchant) has been born in Lake Mastiff (Pericles)!
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Bear Town has grown to size 11
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Crossbowman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-20% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Crossbowman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-18% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Maceman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-17% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Rifleman was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-14% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-2% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Your Paratrooper was attacked by an enemy Airship! (-2% Damage)
Turn 139, 1490 AD: Sippar's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-17% Damage)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Maceman! (-3% Damage)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Air Conditioned has attacked an enemy Pikeman! (-2% Damage)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (22.56) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (11.84)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (79/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (49/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (24/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.20) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (10.88)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (54/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (28/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (65/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (50/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (2/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (35/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 15 (20/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (19.20) vs Hammurabi'sPikeman (8.64)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 29 (51/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 29 (22/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Pikeman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Pikeman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pachacuti (Great General) has been born in Sleep's Shock (Pericles)!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (14.16) vs Hammurabi'sMaceman (8.32)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 94.9%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (43/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (27/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 16 (11/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (13.72) vs Hammurabi'sCatapult (5.00)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper is hit for 10 (42/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Catapult!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper (10.08) vs Hammurabi'sCatapult (5.00)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Combat Odds: 95.1%
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 35 (65/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 35 (30/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Hammurabi's Catapult is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Pericles's Paratrooper has defeated Hammurabi's Catapult!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: Your Paratrooper has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 140, 1500 AD: You have captured Babylon!!!

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 18, 2009, 09:37 PM

Looks like a nice set! And... I have the save.

Couple questions:

- Any troop strength info? Particularly at Akkad
- Have we thought about a WB SSE of BT for the fish? To trade.
- And should we whip a few things out in Babylon?

MF

haphazard1

May 18, 2009, 09:53 PM

Looks like a nice set! And... I have the save.

Couple questions:

- Any troop strength info? Particularly at Akkad

Afraid not. The zeps have been busy bombing Babylon. Most recent view was a couple turns back, maybe 4 units there (LB, mace, pike, cat). Similar for the city west of Babylon.

But Hammi was shifting units steadily from his other cities into Babylon, all through the turnset. Some of that was new production, but at least some was also existing troops. So I think there will not be more then 4-5 units per city, and maybe not even that much.

Get our paras into Babylon to heal with the medic (and maybe super-medic if we decide to use the GG for that), and in 2-3 turns we should be ready to take more cities. Hammi's 6 zeps were a major pain, but they were destroyed in Babylon. :) So even if he builds one or two new ones, the constant airstrikes should be a thing of the past.

Also, be aware Hammi has a caravel NW of Sippar. Do not let it close on and sink our galleon, especially once the GM is on board!

- Have we thought about a WB SSE of BT for the fish? To trade.

I thought about it during the turnset, but where to build it? All our coastal cities are rather busy with more important builds. If we can find time/hammers for it, sure. More trade bait is always handy.

- And should we whip a few things out in Babylon?

We are running Emancipation, so no whipping. :( Would be handy for Sippar as well -- we may want to consider running merchants and starving it down further. The current pop on coastal tiles is not worth much. But if we take out the city west of Babylon, that should finally free up land tiles for it to work. So keeping the pop for the (hopefully) near future is probably best.

KaleLambiek

May 18, 2009, 11:25 PM

Out of all this discussion, what is the verdict on harbors/customs houses/airports? I think harbors are worthwhile at least, not being all that many hammers and adding health (SdL will need more health as it continues to grow).
Basicaly, accoording to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless :( SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...

Exhausting available foreign trade routes is a concern, but the assignment is supposed to provide the best overall result including TR-boosting effects. If any cities get shorted, it will be inland, smaller cities.
at 2 commerce +110% = 4.2 beakers = 40 turns to pay off a Airport if it only gives 2 commerce. That is with NON-marble gold, marble-gold: 71 turns

On settling extra cities, if we wanted to do so... I think we should have done so earlier... i.e. the city SW of IT.
Right now I think we best take Australia of HC's hands to form our off-continent cities.

On the Globe in SdL or FH, how is FH supposed to actually build the Globe? It is going to take 7-8 turns in SdL with all those hammers...FH would never get it built in time to be useful.

Kale and Sleepless, good points about tile improvements at FH. Do we want a couple of workshops there? Some preserves? The theater (and soon after an odeon), plus more resource deals for incense, hit singles, whale should keep it happy enough for the near future.
True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.

No one has objected loudly on the idea of trading with WK, although there were some worries expressed about the diplo impact. I can certainly hold off on this, although the incense would be useful if WW continues to rise. Hopefully taking Babylon and knocking out the SoZ effect will keep that under control.
I am slightly concerned about the - diplo we will get due to "stop trade" requests. These we do not want to say no to, but we cannot say yes either... because we will lose our 3 commerce traderoutes to WK.

On the other hand if the Incense keeps our citizens working... do it... but unly JIT I think?

Have a good time on your vacation, JH! Drop us a note from time to time if you can, just to let us know how much fun you are having.
Yes have a good layover JH.

General opinion on the plan seems to be a go. Wish me luck!

Think so... Good luck!
If we want a 1 tile island... why not :ar15: Atlantis?
Because of atlantis' plenty national wonders it has acculated loads of culture. Barbs you cannot kill, unlike your average AI. As a result you have high "we want our motherland" factors as shown in a test by me some pages ago.

This would make for 20 or so "motherland":mad:, along with your say pop 10 :mad: that requires 30 happyness to grow to pop 10.... Or even 20 happy to have a pop 1, I have no clue how we would do that?? :confused:

- Our valiant galleon sinks one barb galley by Atlantis; the other barb attacks and withdraws. We limp home, badly damaged.
But atleast a live :)

T136
- Got 132 gold from the HE non-build in JH.
- Taoism is spread to JH by Joao - thanks!

Now build Versailles and the Shrine for us Joao
- A forest grows west of LM, we can put another preserve if we want.
Cottages as far as the eye can see!
- Shaka asks us to declare on WK. I agree, as we are not trading with him (I have held off due to the worries expressed about diplo) and Stalin has enough on his hands and will probably join.
Our traderoutes :cry:, I wouldnt have agreed... War on our terms not AI terms IMHO.

- Steam Power complete, start Assembly Line. Coal is revealed in the fat cross at JH (should we mine? or cottage as planned?) and between SdL and TR. Worker sent to get it ready, although we may not want to connect it just yet due to health reasons.
Cottages as far as the eye can see! in particular since we have a second source already. Coal I think only produced unhealthy with factories and industrial park right? Whats the problem?

- JH spawns a prophet, who is put to sleep to wait for a golden age.
Not to bad
- WW drops from 393 (just before the city fell) to 222 after capturing the SoZ. Next turn some of the WW will disappear. It is hitting 5 cities at the moment.
Heavy losses, but finaly... How do you read that WW?? and what does it mean?? Is it going to drop roughly 50% just because we capture SoZ? Sounds strange?? Once build WW shouldnt go away IMHO untill the war is over, or??

Perhaps it would have been more effective if we had taken Akkad first?? Something to try in a replay?

Will study the save in more detail later.

KaleLambiek

May 19, 2009, 12:11 AM

some quick comments...

We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??

LM, it is going to be turn 173 before we get another GP from there... Stick with a GM though I think??

Customs in SdL has taken the Cuzco traderoute from JH, dont know if that is a good thing ??

Temple in IT??

Forget the factory in Sleeps, yes it will help longterm, but we need Theatre + Odeon there for the happy. And some more troopers first before we commit to a factory. Factory adds nearly nothing compared to the +125% we already have there.

I wouldnt transport our GM in a damaged Galleon, we dont need him NOW we have time to heal the Galleon and transport him at that point in time. Move the galleon into SdL Heal, transport.
We have 1400 gold in the bank at 150gpt thats 9 turns not taking into account any gold gotten from conquest or trade. We have time with the GM!
And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants say 8 Merchants for 24 GPT, and the bank comming up in LM for 12 GPT adding some 36 gpt to our cash :)
We should be good for atleast 10 based on that alone, with war booty 4 * 100 we should be good for another 2/3 turns more. We have time with the GM!

Why move Thorrez to the Coal if 1) You are not sure we want to connect it 2) We dont quite need it yet
Instead Thorrez should be working on a windmill for TR, for now we road it and move SE for a windmill I think?

What did capturing Babylon cost us?

Note our shrine as gone up to 25, someone is spreading Confu out there! But with babylon down, dont think any AI combination/spreading is going to stop this war...

Looking forward to your plans Mastiff!

1155 at turn 113
1130 at turn 118
1140 at turn 123 (discovery of Chemistry)
1267 at turn 131 (Corporation)

1258 beakers per turn now needed, at turn 140. We are producing 1123 beakers (up from 750 at the start of Chris' turnset :) )

With SoL comming up and 11 continental cities thats atleast 33 more beakers comming.
Say on average +50% beakers = 16 more
Add 10 beakers for cottage growth...
1123 + 33 + 16 + 10 =1182, not quite there yet, but getting there :)

Ofcourse we will lose some of this once we go with Uni Suff, but its a start :) We need to start thinking just about when we want to swap to Cottage civics (FS/Uni Suff) and time to build Cristo right about there...

Edit:
With all our cities building gold, except for JH, SdL and Sleeps we are currently running at -1gpt! -1gpt!!!!
We dont -by a long shot- have enough cities! Joao must die!
We are currently paying 50gpt in city distance maintenance. Which means communism will pay of the 2800 beaker research in about 2800 / 50 = 56 turns = just about break even now...
But if we addopt Communism, we dont have to worry about distance = FP and Versailles are much lower if at all priorities.... As well as courthouses...

Though it would be nice to have Mining Inc (possible target for the GE?) adding hammers specificaly in our 'last-part-building-cities" might be helpfull.

ChrisFromLux

May 19, 2009, 04:25 AM

OK, turnset done, played 8 turns.

Haven't looked at the save yet, but this sounds good :goodjob:

This would become a repeating theme, unfortunately.

It already was in my turnset :(

Confu spreads in IT :)

Great; that's what I hoped for and why I sent our CIB-missionary to Two Rivers, which already had a religion :)

HC has finished Rifling, and is now researching Rocketry! :D If we can get him to trade it...thousands of beakers saved.

Good news. HC, keep on helping us, or Kale will convince us to attack you :D

A GG is born in Sleeps from the fighting at Babylon. Maybe a super-medic? We were badly slowed by the need to heal in enemy territory, even with a regular medic.

Already? Wow, that was fast ... I agree that he should be Super-Medic. I love it how your units completely heal in 1 or 2 turns!

Oddly, there is no pop-up about gold. :confused: Just straight into the "what do you want to build here" screen. I hope we got some gold. :confused:

Yes, we got gold; I checked it before and after the last fight for every city.

Because no choice between keeping and razing the city means no information on pillaged gold either. :(

A couple workers are unmoved, one on the JH coal so we can decide what to do with it.

As we have another source of Coal, cottage it!

But Hammi was shifting units steadily from his other cities into Babylon, all through the turnset. Some of that was new production, but at least some was also existing troops. So I think there will not be more then 4-5 units per city, and maybe not even that much.

He should have used most of his units to defend his threathened capital, which should mean that all other cities are down to 2-3 defenders.
And he cannot whip forever ...

After this fall of Babylon, the war should go faster ;)

How do you read that WW?? and what does it mean?? Is it going to drop roughly 50% just because we capture SoZ? Sounds strange?? Once build WW shouldnt go away IMHO untill the war is over, or??

I guess you have a base-value of war weariness with every Civ, which is doubled for the Civ that controls the Statue of Zeus. Once it loses it, you're back to your base-value?!

Will study the save in more detail later.

:agree:

Sleepless

May 19, 2009, 09:29 AM

First :goodjob: on the turnset haphazard1. Except why declare on WK. :( Can't be helped now so we'll just have to make the best of it. Hopefully somewhere along the way HC will join in and we can get him to friendly that way. :)

On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US. :)

The war weariness should drop next turn so hopefully we can get some unhappy pop back. I'm sure that is what has happened to me before after taking the SoZ. I don't usually take much notice of these things though. :lol: (If we do go after Joao straight after Ham we are going to suffer a lot more so we would need to build Mount Rushmore somewhere).

The GG. Can we please make a woody III C1 medic para now. It makes a better healer than a medic III on a single stack (pretty sure anyway) plus it is much better at attacking with its first strikes. I'm really sad I didn't push more for this earlier looking at our wounded units. :(

Tech path? Regardless of what route we take definitely plastics is the main next aim for the 3 gorges imho. We do lose the fur as a source of trade so rock n roll we be a good replacement. We do want the IW built asap for these wonders. So probably I would go Steel, Indus (we need to know if we have aluminium or where we can get it), RR, Comb, Plastics.

Nat Wonders. I personally can't see much use for the Globe Theatre atm anywhere so I would make this a low priority. Nat Epic/Nat Park obviously CiB. It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.

The most important imho is the Ironworks. I still can't see any better city than Babylon. JH would be a candidate if we weren't cottaging everywhere. We do have some other good production sites but none to match these 2.

Mount Rushmore probably SdL as Sleeps should be building units if we attack Joao.

More thoughts and comments later.

Just one last one I would leave Ham's hill city West of Babylon as the last one to take. Might not make much difference but at least if we lose a few units attacking if won't matter to much then. :)

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 19, 2009, 10:30 AM

Looking forward to your plans Mastiff!

I'm going to read all the comments... then hopefully put together the plan tomorrow. I have a 12 hour day today, where I can't look at the save. Tomorrow will be an early day, Thursday is another 12+... so I'm looking to play Friday or Saturday.

If that works for everyone. :)

KaleLambiek

May 19, 2009, 02:35 PM

On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US.
Do you get back the shared civic bonus in full?? Immediatly?

The war weariness should drop next turn so hopefully we can get some unhappy pop back. I'm sure that is what has happened to me before after taking the SoZ. I don't usually take much notice of these things though. :lol: (If we do go after Joao straight after Ham we are going to suffer a lot more so we would need to build Mount Rushmore somewhere).
Why would we suffer "a lot more"??

The GG. Can we please make a woody III C1 medic para now. It makes a better healer than a medic III on a single stack (pretty sure anyway) plus it is much better at attacking with its first strikes. I'm really sad I didn't push more for this earlier looking at our wounded units.
Medic 3 or Woods 3... In themselves they dont matter in healing both +15%, but the requirements are different and other effects.
Medic 3 = Medic 1 = 25% healing
Woods 3 doesnt necesaraly mean Medic 1 but adds 2 first strikes...
Also the XBow(s) that have medic one now, cannot have Woodsman promotions... so we have to promote (free anyway) to Riffle or Infantry...
Having the 2 move promotion MAY be nice... but the medic will mostly stand anyways.
Medic 3 is 2 promotions away (10, 17)
While Woods 3 is 3 promotions away (10, 17, 26)

Both are attainable with the 7xp crossbow, not with the 5xp one.

Tech path? Regardless of what route we take definitely plastics is the main next aim for the 3 gorges imho. We do lose the fur as a source of trade so rock n roll we be a good replacement. We do want the IW built asap for these wonders. So probably I would go Steel, Indus (we need to know if we have aluminium or where we can get it), RR, Comb, Plastics.
Why delay RR for Industrialism? What are we going to get from Industrialism vs Railroads?? Knowledge of Aluminium? With that knowledge we can do.... erm well not much anways...

Nat Wonders. I personally can't see much use for the Globe Theatre atm anywhere so I would make this a low priority. Nat Epic/Nat Park obviously CiB. It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.
Agree on the Factory, dont know about the Industrial park, perhaps a lab? I have to look over the details...

Globe if build in SdL allows for SdL to work all the water tiles NOW. Although if not for the WW it would already work all water tiles a quick Odeon and Singles + Broadcast tower ... You are right UTTERLY USELESS, forget about Globe Theatre!

The most important imho is the Ironworks. I still can't see any better city than Babylon. JH would be a candidate if we weren't cottaging everywhere. We do have some other good production sites but none to match these 2.
Ironworks is possible in Sleeps too... We simply need to count hammers though AND not unimportant consider timing... at 469 its pretty expensive to build
Babylone has 9 turns of revolt left, then needs to build some 'basic' infra before it can start IW... SDL/Sleeps can start much earlier thus get more/earlier benifit...

Mount Rushmore probably SdL as Sleeps should be building units if we attack Joao.
With no Globe in SdL... an option... But also IW could go here... Its a pretty strong prodiction city if we mine/rr those hills.

Just one last one I would leave Ham's hill city West of Babylon as the last one to take. Might not make much difference but at least if we lose a few units attacking if won't matter to much then. :)

Shouldnt matter eitherways... It is pretty much cleanup from here on in.

I'm going to read all the comments... then hopefully put together the plan tomorrow. I have a 12 hour day today, where I can't look at the save. Tomorrow will be an early day, Thursday is another 12+... so I'm looking to play Friday or Saturday.

If that works for everyone. :)

Pending discussions of techpath and builds I dont see a problem with this... Lets see the plan first so we can start looking at details...

I can see a case for Communism and State property... Saving 50gpt already for 56 turns payback... No worries about building courthouses in former Babylon and Portugal and , no worries about building FP.
134 hammers for FP, 80 hammers per Courthouse

I can also see a case for Free Market, 50 gpt saved = 50 beakers per turn if outright build in SP. Free Market with (on average) +50% beakers is 2 commerce/3 beakers per city
14 cities = 42 extra beakers. SP is slightly better in per turn pay, but we need to invest 2800 beakers which I dont know if we want to do that and if we do... when ?
Maintenance cost is going to go up considerably though, so it will pay of...
But then there is the consideration of do we want Mining inc in some selected cities (IW city and Sleeps for example?)

haphazard1

May 19, 2009, 02:43 PM

Basicaly, accoording to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless :( SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...

at 2 commerce +110% = 4.2 beakers = 40 turns to pay off a Airport if it only gives 2 commerce. That is with NON-marble gold, marble-gold: 71 turns

SdL is now getting 11, 8, and 8, with the airport to add another TR. Some of that is from grabbing higher-value TRs, but with the additional +150% from harbor and customer house I think we are coming out at least as well as having that TR in JH and perhaps better. Plus we get health from the harbor, which SdL will need as it grows.

On settling extra cities, if we wanted to do so... I think we should have done so earlier... i.e. the city SW of IT.
Right now I think we best take Australia of HC's hands to form our off-continent cities.

Not sure any overseas conquest will be worthwhile, but we can evaluate that more closely later. Agree on not settling more "filler" cities in our territory.

True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.

:agree: I built one preserve, but if we can get rid of the WW we will have more than enough happiness.

I am slightly concerned about the - diplo we will get due to "stop trade" requests. These we do not want to say no to, but we cannot say yes either... because we will lose our 3 commerce traderoutes to WK.

On the other hand if the Incense keeps our citizens working... do it... but unly JIT I think?

Obviously things went differently on this....

Because of atlantis' plenty national wonders it has acculated loads of culture. Barbs you cannot kill, unlike your average AI. As a result you have high "we want our motherland" factors as shown in a test by me some pages ago.

This would make for 20 or so "motherland":mad:, along with your say pop 10 :mad: that requires 30 happyness to grow to pop 10.... Or even 20 happy to have a pop 1, I have no clue how we would do that?? :confused:

Yes, Atlantis is an evil temptation placed by the designer, a mirage to lure unwary Civ players to a watery doom. :)

But atleast a live :)

Odds were against the barbs doing that much damage. But the result was good.

Our traderoutes :cry:, I wouldnt have agreed... War on our terms not AI terms IMHO.

This was probably a mistake by me. :( But with Shaka declaring, and Stalin having enough on his hands (and WK the likely target), I was expecting a mass declaration. Worries were expressed about trading with WK and taking diplo negatives with the other AIs -- refusing to join the war would pile up the same negatives. This way we get positives, and can sign peace as soon as WK agrees to talk.

Cottages as far as the eye can see! in particular since we have a second source already. Coal I think only produced unhealthy with factories and industrial park right? Whats the problem?

Until we build factories, no problems. But once we do, the unhealth will start piling up.

Heavy losses, but finaly... How do you read that WW?? and what does it mean?? Is it going to drop roughly 50% just because we capture SoZ? Sounds strange?? Once build WW shouldnt go away IMHO untill the war is over, or??

Perhaps it would have been more effective if we had taken Akkad first?? Something to try in a replay?

The WW can be seen if you hover over the leader's name in the bottom-right score list. SoZ doubles whatever the "real" WW would be with that leader. So we had 393 just before the final unit hit Babylon, and taking the city would have increased it to 444. But since SoZ is now ours, it is back to the real underlying WW of 222. It can not go down further until the war ends, and only decays slowly (very slowly) during peace. Eliminating Hammi obviously gets rid of all of it. :evil:

Attacking Akkad would have been worse, because every unit killed and every enemy city taken increases WW. We definitely wanted Babylon taken ASAP; took too long as it was.

some quick comments...

We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??

The worse WW just appering this turn -- we can insert the build now. Although hopefully WW will drop some next turn due to SoZ capture. When I began the cottage conversion, JH was balanced at the happy cap.

LM, it is going to be turn 173 before we get another GP from there... Stick with a GM though I think??

Stick with the merchants, yes. More gold per turn, multiplied by market/grocer/soon-to-be-bank. And another merchant would mix nicely for golden age fodder, even if we do not want the trade mission cash.

Customs in SdL has taken the Cuzco traderoute from JH, dont know if that is a good thing ??

I think it is a good thing overall. SdL gets +150% on TR from harbor and customs house, and JH gets a lesser TR but not that much lesser. So overall we gain, even with Oxford + academy in JH. Inland capitals can never compete for TR with coastal cities once the harbors and customs houses start going up.

SdL was at 4, 4, 3 as per your earlier calc. Now it is 11, 8, 8 -- +16 commerce. Some of that is offset by losing slightly in JH and elsewhere, but they did not lose 16 commerce even spread across multiple cities as the TRs got shuffled around.

Temple in IT??

Yes, now that Confu spread there a temple is good.

Forget the factory in Sleeps, yes it will help longterm, but we need Theatre + Odeon there for the happy. And some more troopers first before we commit to a factory. Factory adds nearly nothing compared to the +125% we already have there.

I thought about this, and I agree -- more paras first, and happiness as we need it. We will want the factory eventually, though, and earlier means more total payoff.

I wouldnt transport our GM in a damaged Galleon, we dont need him NOW we have time to heal the Galleon and transport him at that point in time. Move the galleon into SdL Heal, transport.

There should be time to get the galleon healed. At most we delay the GM mission by 1 or 2 turns.

We have 1400 gold in the bank at 150gpt thats 9 turns not taking into account any gold gotten from conquest or trade. We have time with the GM!
And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants say 8 Merchants for 24 GPT, and the bank comming up in LM for 12 GPT adding some 36 gpt to our cash :)
We should be good for atleast 10 based on that alone, with war booty 4 * 100 we should be good for another 2/3 turns more. We have time with the GM!

Plus CiB will finish the NE in a couple turns, and we should get somewhere around 400 gold from non-builds. Assuming we actually get gold for all the non-builds, and not for only one.

Why move Thorrez to the Coal if 1) You are not sure we want to connect it 2) We dont quite need it yet
Instead Thorrez should be working on a windmill for TR, for now we road it and move SE for a windmill I think?

In case we want it, it will be ready. At the rate we are teching, Railroad is not far off so we may want coal connected. And the coal is roaded now, and 1 more turn mining will finish it.

What did capturing Babylon cost us?

Note our shrine as gone up to 25, someone is spreading Confu out there! But with babylon down, dont think any AI combination/spreading is going to stop this war...

Need to check on the cost, I will have to compare T139 and T140 saves. The whole "no popup window" thing rather threw me off.

Not much Confu spread, other than IT. Shaka and Joao still have minimal votes for AP, although Shaka might have spread it to one or two more cities.

1258 beakers per turn now needed, at turn 140. We are producing 1123 beakers (up from 750 at the start of Chris' turnset :) )

With SoL comming up and 11 continental cities thats atleast 33 more beakers comming.
Say on average +50% beakers = 16 more
Add 10 beakers for cottage growth...
1123 + 33 + 16 + 10 =1182, not quite there yet, but getting there :)

Definitely progress. And if we can get Rocketry from HC, that is several thousand more beakers saved. :)

Ofcourse we will lose some of this once we go with Uni Suff, but its a start :) We need to start thinking just about when we want to swap to Cottage civics (FS/Uni Suff) and time to build Cristo right about there...

The cottage conversion at JH started T137, so US + FS would be about T160 at the earliest. However many turns to build Cristo before that gives us our window for JH to finish SoL, build some happiness, and whatever else. With the reduced hammers at JH, not as much time as we would probably like.

Edit:
With all our cities building gold, except for JH, SdL and Sleeps we are currently running at -1gpt! -1gpt!!!!
We dont -by a long shot- have enough cities! Joao must die!

I do not understand this statement? :confused: More cities == more maintenance == even further below breakeven. The new cities will need infra, so they will not be building gold to make up the difference -- at least not immediately.

I am still not convinced we want Joao's cities. Maybe conquer them for gold and then liberate them...possibly keeping the best ones or the ones with resources we do not have. But some of them are junk, like Sippar, and would just be a net drain.

We are currently paying 50gpt in city distance maintenance. Which means communism will pay of the 2800 beaker research in about 2800 / 50 = 56 turns = just about break even now...
But if we addopt Communism, we dont have to worry about distance = FP and Versailles are much lower if at all priorities.... As well as courthouses...

But running State Property means 2 less commerce per windmill and forest preserve. Do we have 25 windmlls + forest preserves? I think we do, or are at least close to that many. So Communism does not really save us any gold per turn. And we lose 6 health in every city, a significant loss.

I think staying in Enviro and building FP (and maybe Versailles) is the better approach. Keep all that windmill and preserve commerce, and reduce some of the distance cost. Plus the 2800 beaker research cost. Although the free GSpy could be useful.

And courthouses -- most of our city maintenance is number of cities maintenance, which is not affected by SP. We need the courthouses even if we adopt SP.

Though it would be nice to have Mining Inc (possible target for the GE?) adding hammers specificaly in our 'last-part-building-cities" might be helpfull.

SP blocks corporations, and Enviro boosts their costs. Not sure Mining Inc would be worthwhile. Our saved GE is for Three Gorges, although we might get another.

It already was in my turnset :(

Yes, Hammi was very annoying. Including the cat near Opis on T132, I killed 28 Babylonian units during the turnset, for 3 paras lost. With most of those attacks against fortified units in a 60% culture city, and our paras having at least 20% damage and usually more, this is not a bad result. 31 total battles, from 85% to 99+%, losing three is pretty close to the expected outcome.

Although losing that one at 95% and not even scratching the defender was hard to take. :mad: Losing occasionally at 95% happens. But not even wounding the other guy?

Great; that's what I hoped for and why I sent our CIB-missionary to Two Rivers, which already had a religion :)

Free spread of your shrine religion is always nice. :)

Already? Wow, that was fast ... I agree that he should be Super-Medic. I love it how your units completely heal in 1 or 2 turns!

Note the 28 units killed -- lots of GG points.

Yes, we got gold; I checked it before and after the last fight for every city.

Because no choice between keeping and razing the city means no information on pillaged gold either. :(

OK, that explains it. I do not think I have played with no city razing before, so I was not expecting that to happen. I can check the save from the previous turn, calculate the per-turn change, and should be able to get the pillage figure for Babylon. As well as the change in our costs per turn.

As we have another source of Coal, cottage it!

I was leaning that way, and it looks like everyone agrees. Should we consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the tile? Having a single resource to sabotage...not good to risk it for something that important.

He should have used most of his units to defend his threathened capital, which should mean that all other cities are down to 2-3 defenders.
And he cannot whip forever ...

After this fall of Babylon, the war should go faster ;)

I certainly hope so! :lol: I really did not expect the fight for Babylon to take as long as it did. But with no siege and wounded paras, even a sword can present a tough fight.

I guess you have a base-value of war weariness with every Civ, which is doubled for the Civ that controls the Statue of Zeus. Once it loses it, you're back to your base-value?!

I believe this is correct, but the unhappiness in the cities is "set" at the start of each turn. So it has not changed this turn even though SoZ is now ours. Next turn, we should see a good bit less WW.

On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US. :)

We will definitely build CR, it is just a question of when. No more than 20 turns from now, though.

On quick changes, do you get back all your previously accumulated "fave civic" bonus, or do you go back to +1 and take 10 turns per increment as before? If you start at +1 again, a quick swap may not be enough.

The war weariness should drop next turn so hopefully we can get some unhappy pop back. I'm sure that is what has happened to me before after taking the SoZ. I don't usually take much notice of these things though. :lol: (If we do go after Joao straight after Ham we are going to suffer a lot more so we would need to build Mount Rushmore somewhere).

Rushmore would definitely be useful, just have to decide where to build it. JH could do it, if we are sure we do not want something else there (IW?). Some jails might not be a bad idea either if we go after Joao -- another -25% and lots of extra EP.

The GG. Can we please make a woody III C1 medic para now. It makes a better healer than a medic III on a single stack (pretty sure anyway) plus it is much better at attacking with its first strikes. I'm really sad I didn't push more for this earlier looking at our wounded units. :(

Our units were much more severely wounded at points during the turnset. :(

A Medic III is equally good as a Woods III + Medic I for the same tile, plus the Medic III gives the same bonus to adjacent units while Woods gives nothing to adjacent. Also, I do not think we want our GG-super-medic attacking, so I prefer the Medic III.

What to make it out of? A para can keep up with our other paras, but that is one fewer para to fight with. Still, for mobility that is probably the thing to do since we do not have any move 2 units yet.

Tech path? Regardless of what route we take definitely plastics is the main next aim for the 3 gorges imho. We do lose the fur as a source of trade so rock n roll we be a good replacement. We do want the IW built asap for these wonders. So probably I would go Steel, Indus (we need to know if we have aluminium or where we can get it), RR, Comb, Plastics.

Sounds pretty good to me, although we might want RR before Industrialism? I do like the idea of finding out where the aliuminum is, though. We need to know if we need an overseas war (or a fast settler) to claim some.

Nat Wonders. I personally can't see much use for the Globe Theatre atm anywhere so I would make this a low priority. Nat Epic/Nat Park obviously CiB. It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.

Globe in SdL makes sense for me. Would could build an odeon and a market and probably get by, by why not build the Globe since we can? Than no more worries there, whatever WW becomes.

Nat Park is already built, NE will be very shortly (2 turns).

The most important imho is the Ironworks. I still can't see any better city than Babylon. JH would be a candidate if we weren't cottaging everywhere. We do have some other good production sites but none to match these 2.

With US we will get some hammers back in JH. If we can get enough infra built in Babylon to build the IW, that could work. But IW is very expensive, and Babylon has a lot of rebuilding to do and some turns in revolt before it can even start. Can Babylon finish IW soon enough to be worthwhile, compared to JH or SdL or Dur Kur or Sleeps?

Mount Rushmore probably SdL as Sleeps should be building units if we attack Joao.

SdL only has one national wonder slot left after Moai. Rushmore here means no Globe. Maybe IT could build Rushmore? Or GV or BT?

Just one last one I would leave Ham's hill city West of Babylon as the last one to take. Might not make much difference but at least if we lose a few units attacking if won't matter to much then. :)

Getting rid of that city would free land tiles for Sippar to work. I think we want that sooner rather than later, along with Akkad to remove borders at CiB so we can safely finish the last two preserves.

I'm going to read all the comments... then hopefully put together the plan tomorrow. I have a 12 hour day today, where I can't look at the save. Tomorrow will be an early day, Thursday is another 12+... so I'm looking to play Friday or Saturday.

If that works for everyone. :)

Sounds good to me, Mastiff. Gives us time to discuss things properly. :D

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 19, 2009, 03:03 PM

Why delay RR for Industrialism? What are we going to get from Industrialism vs Railroads?? Knowledge of Aluminium? With that knowledge we can do.... erm well not much anways...

Well, knowledge is power. If the only aluminum is overseas, we'll have to go get it... It would help in planning. Also, marines are some tough dudes who can attack from ships with no penalty.

I'd say if we have the workers ready to build the rails for extra hammers, go RR. If we don't, then spend the next few turns on IND to reveal aluminum.

MF

Sleepless

May 19, 2009, 03:36 PM

Couple of quick comments. :)

The fav civic bonus I'm pretty certain does remain. It does take some time to dissappear. How long though :dunno: Unfortunately until this game I've never really thought about it. Just knew it remained. :)

I'll do a forum search some time for the difference between the medics but I'm 99% certain the woody 3 medic 1 is a better healer on the 1 tile. If we don't attack anyone else it will be a moot point anyway. :)

The coal in JH I would leave as a windmill atm. The extra 1f helps a little bit and the extra 2h makes a difference with it losing most of its hammer tiles.

Civics I also prefer keeping enviro for most of the game. The +6 health in all cities is huge and if we change out we'd better start getting health improving buildings asap in our bigger cities. JH atm is only at +2. Lose enviro -4.

Possibly worth using an engineer on an immediate IW. One of the reasons I would like CiB to run 5 engineers asap (forge, factory, industrial park). If we can pop a couple that would be a big help in our wonder building.

Tech path. If we can get rocketry from HC we could be starting the Apollo in as little as 10 turns time. Hence knowing where Alum is would be a big help. SdL would be my choice for building this if we do it very early.

More comments later. :)

haphazard1

May 19, 2009, 03:39 PM

Do you get back the shared civic bonus in full?? Immediatly?

A key point, and more of minds thinking alike. :lol:

Why would we suffer "a lot more"??

If we go to war with Joao we develop new WW with him, starting from zero. But since WW depends on cities taken and units lost, it will climb fairly quickly to similar (or worse) levels as we are seeing now.

Medic 3 or Woods 3... In themselves they dont matter in healing both +15%, but the requirements are different and other effects.
Medic 3 = Medic 1 = 25% healing
Woods 3 doesnt necesaraly mean Medic 1 but adds 2 first strikes...
Also the XBow(s) that have medic one now, cannot have Woodsman promotions... so we have to promote (free anyway) to Riffle or Infantry...
Having the 2 move promotion MAY be nice... but the medic will mostly stand anyways.
Medic 3 is 2 promotions away (10, 17)
While Woods 3 is 3 promotions away (10, 17, 26)

Both are attainable with the 7xp crossbow, not with the 5xp one.

I like the Medic 3 and two-move promotion for the 7 XP xbow, upgrading free to infantry. A fast, tough unit so it can move quickly to meet up with paras outside target cities, and heals adjacent stacks if it can not quite get there in time. Woods 3 would not be able to get the additional move promo, so it could not keep up with the paras.

Why delay RR for Industrialism? What are we going to get from Industrialism vs Railroads?? Knowledge of Aluminium? With that knowledge we can do.... erm well not much anways...

Knowledge of aluminum could be crucial. What if the only source in the world is deep in Shaka's territory, or Stalin's? We would need to alter our plans to hit them after Hammi, rather than Joao. It is T140 now, figure 12 to 15 more turns to finish Hammi. So at T155 or so, we have maybe 25 - 30 turns to obtain aluminum in time to not delay SS parts, given that T195 is our target for the final SS techs to start rapid production of the last parts; other parts need to start earlier.

And how much benefit will RR really give us right away? We do not currently have many mines, our paras do not need rails to move fast, we do not need Machine Guns for defense. Why not take Industrialism first and learn if we need to plan a fast overseas conquest?

Globe if build in SdL allows for SdL to work all the water tiles NOW. Although if not for the WW it would already work all water tiles a quick Odeon and Singles + Broadcast tower ... You are right UTTERLY USELESS, forget about Globe Theatre!

If not for the WW.... But the WW does exist, and it is going to continue existing -- and growing larger -- for at least another 12 -15 turns. A quick odeon is certainly possible, but R&R plus Eiffel is going to take some time even if we start them immediately. Of course, R&R and Eiffel will help solve happiness issues everywhere, and not just SdL, so they are worthwhile anyway. But I would not call the Globe useless.

Ironworks is possible in Sleeps too... We simply need to count hammers though AND not unimportant consider timing... at 469 its pretty expensive to build
Babylone has 9 turns of revolt left, then needs to build some 'basic' infra before it can start IW... SDL/Sleeps can start much earlier thus get more/earlier benifit...

More minds thinking alike. :) Babylon will not even be out of revolt until T149. Some key infra, then IW...might get finished just in time for SS parts. It would be nice to have it earlier somewhere.

With no Globe in SdL... an option... But also IW could go here... Its a pretty strong prodiction city if we mine/rr those hills.

A possibility, although I hate giving up all that windmill commerce. :cry: Beakers is still the key, not hammers, at least for a while longer yet.

Shouldnt matter eitherways... It is pretty much cleanup from here on in.

Funny, I was thinking that at the start of my turnset.... :crazyeye:

I can see a case for Communism and State property... Saving 50gpt already for 56 turns payback... No worries about building courthouses in former Babylon and Portugal and , no worries about building FP.
134 hammers for FP, 80 hammers per Courthouse

See my previous post. SP does NOT save us money, and we still need those courthouses even with SP. And the health would be a serious loss.

I can also see a case for Free Market, 50 gpt saved = 50 beakers per turn if outright build in SP. Free Market with (on average) +50% beakers is 2 commerce/3 beakers per city
14 cities = 42 extra beakers. SP is slightly better in per turn pay, but we need to invest 2800 beakers which I dont know if we want to do that and if we do... when ?
Maintenance cost is going to go up considerably though, so it will pay of...
But then there is the consideration of do we want Mining inc in some selected cities (IW city and Sleeps for example?)

FM does not pay off compared to Enviro any more than SP does, due to lost windmill and preserve commerce. Plus health losses.

And Mining Inc...how much benefit would we get? How many sources of contributing resources will we have once we finish absorbing Hammi's lands? Not sure burning a GE we do not have (the current one is for Three Gorges) rather than going for a golden age is worthwhile. Depends on how many GP of which types we have at the end, including the Fusion GE.

ChrisFromLux

May 19, 2009, 03:41 PM

I'm going to read all the comments... then hopefully put together the plan tomorrow. I have a 12 hour day today, where I can't look at the save. Tomorrow will be an early day, Thursday is another 12+... so I'm looking to play Friday or Saturday.

If that works for everyone. :)

Fine with me as well!

On tech, my vote goes to Industrialism first, to know where Aluminum is. Then, go Steel > Railroad > Combustion (for Tanks :-)), to be able to go Plastics next, for clean Power. Take Rocketry from HC on the way, and then go for the SS-techs ...

On Communism, that is only worth it if we need that GSpy for the 3rd GP-Golden Age.
Kale, do we need him, or can we get 5 'different' GPeople by ourselves in time?

And State Property, we are still rather small, and Distance-maintenance is not too big. For all cities we'll take after Babylon, we'll do it for the pillage-cash anyway, not to take benefit out of the cities themselves, so we can gift them to someone or form colonies ...

ChrisFromLux

May 19, 2009, 03:41 PM

Wow, 3 cross-posts :D

haphazard1

May 19, 2009, 03:52 PM

I'll do a forum search some time for the difference between the medics but I'm 99% certain the woody 3 medic 1 is a better healer on the 1 tile. If we don't attack anyone else it will be a moot point anyway. :)

I am 99% certain they are equal on the one tile, and Medic III also heals adjacent tiles.

The coal in JH I would leave as a windmill atm. The extra 1f helps a little bit and the extra 2h makes a difference with it losing most of its hammer tiles.

If we are worried about hammers in JH, we should mine the coal. We could steal the lake from LM for 3 more food rather than a specialist. At least, we could once the happiness situation is corrected.

But a cottage would also be valuable. JH is our biggest +beaker% city -- more base commerce here is hugely valuable. I would cottage the tile.

Civics I also prefer keeping enviro for most of the game. The +6 health in all cities is huge and if we change out we'd better start getting health improving buildings asap in our bigger cities. JH atm is only at +2. Lose enviro -4.

And Enviro is just as good for total commerce/payoff as well, due to the windmill and preserve +2 bonus. The health is critical as well; JH is not our only large city.

Possibly worth using an engineer on an immediate IW. One of the reasons I would like CiB to run 5 engineers asap (forge, factory, industrial park). If we can pop a couple that would be a big help in our wonder building.

Interesting idea for the engineer, although I think Three Gorges is more valuable for our current sleeping GE. We will need power as quickly as we can get it, without spending all those hammers on coal plants and losing health.

Tech path. If we can get rocketry from HC we could be starting the Apollo in as little as 10 turns time. Hence knowing where Alum is would be a big help. SdL would be my choice for building this if we do it very early.

I also like the idea of early Apollo. Assuming we can get some aluminum (no reason to waste hammers), getting it done early and letting some minor cities slowly grind out the cheap SS parts greatly boosts our flexibility later. There are a LOT of SS parts to build for a complete, safe, fast ship, and our big hammer cities will be plenty busy rushing to get the most expensive parts done after the last couple techs are completed.

Do we want to consider building less than the full set of parts? Only 1 engine?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 19, 2009, 04:24 PM

Will HC trade rocketry before he has Apollo finished? And... what will we need to have to get it. If we got the great spy, we could always steal it, too...

Sleepless

May 19, 2009, 11:13 PM

I was wrong about the wIII medic 1 healer. It is the same as a medic III. Probably I'm so used to having WIII warriors in the early game I never bother with medics now. ;)

KaleLambiek

May 20, 2009, 12:14 AM

Yes, Atlantis is an evil temptation placed by the designer, a mirage to lure unwary Civ players to a watery doom.
I am not quite sure about this, if you are able to get it sooner your "homeland" will be less... possibly managable... But I think a few teams will take Atlantis and we will see if or not that then 20 :mad: is or isnt managable. and even if it is 20...

This was probably a mistake by me. :( But with Shaka declaring, and Stalin having enough on his hands (and WK the likely target), I was expecting a mass declaration. Worries were expressed about trading with WK and taking diplo negatives with the other AIs -- refusing to join the war would pile up the same negatives. This way we get positives, and can sign peace as soon as WK agrees to talk.
If he is willing to do OBs, otherwize we just stick out the war possibly ship over a few Troopers to start doing some damage :)

Until we build factories, no problems. But once we do, the unhealth will start piling up.
Well we want those factories :( right?? And atleast 1 coal plant in JH and IT.

The WW can be seen if you hover over the leader's name in the bottom-right score list. SoZ doubles whatever the "real" WW would be with that leader. So we had 393 just before the final unit hit Babylon, and taking the city would have increased it to 444. But since SoZ is now ours, it is back to the real underlying WW of 222. It can not go down further until the war ends, and only decays slowly (very slowly) during peace. Eliminating Hammi obviously gets rid of all of it.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php
WW Unhappiness in a City=
Pop x Active WW/200
x (100% -25%(Jail)-25%(Rushmore)-50%(Police State) )
x World Size Modifier
__Duel=150%
__Tiny=130%
__Small=110%
__Standard=90%
__Large=70%
__Huge=50%
x 50% if Multiplayer game
x 50% if Always War or Permanent War/Peace Options
x AIs Modifier (100% at Settler..10% lower for each level up)
x (100+AI Per Era Modifier * Era)% [-1 for every Level above Noble]

So a drop to 222 from 393 should...
393 / 200 * 100% * 90% * (100 + something)% - 2 = ~37%
I dont see how this formula works, but the drop is nearly 50% this means we should get atleast 2, probably 3 pop back in JH.
This means we should be able to get SoL first then Odeon > Factory?
Or SoL > Start factory (insert Odeon if needed)

Attacking Akkad would have been worse, because every unit killed and every enemy city taken increases WW. We definitely wanted Babylon taken ASAP; took too long as it was.
Dont know about that, yes the intermediate would be worse, but progress faster. And with the SoZ WW going away, the intermediate would have gone down to what it is anyways. IN the mean time Akkad has lower culture defence and is lower value to the AI, thus defended less than Babylon. Stack a few Promotions and less losses at Babylon, might actually have lowered the WW.

I think it is a good thing overall. SdL gets +150% on TR from harbor and customs house, and JH gets a lesser TR but not that much lesser. So overall we gain, even with Oxford + academy in JH. Inland capitals can never compete for TR with coastal cities once the harbors and customs houses start going up.

SdL was at 4, 4, 3 as per your earlier calc. Now it is 11, 8, 8 -- +16 commerce. Some of that is offset by losing slightly in JH and elsewhere, but they did not lose 16 commerce even spread across multiple cities as the TRs got shuffled around.
Dont know (but would like to know) how the beakers balance out... Slightly more beakers + 110% vs slightly less beakers + 260%, I dont know...

11 +110% vs 8 + 250% = 23.1 vs 28.8 = 5 beaker/turn LOSS! Yes we get a little commerce but appearently the assignment of traderoutes doesnt take beakers into account :(

I thought about this, and I agree -- more paras first, and happiness as we need it. We will want the factory eventually, though, and earlier means more total payoff.
I think we want our 12 Troopers first, Hammy must be dead ASAP.

There should be time to get the galleon healed. At most we delay the GM mission by 1 or 2 turns.
Even 10 turns doesnt matter much, what matter is he is SAFE!

Plus CiB will finish the NE in a couple turns, and we should get somewhere around 400 gold from non-builds. Assuming we actually get gold for all the non-builds, and not for only one.
We do/will get all non-build golds.

Not much Confu spread, other than IT. Shaka and Joao still have minimal votes for AP, although Shaka might have spread it to one or two more cities.
IIRC it was 20gpt in the previous save. Thus 4 more cities must have been added somewhere.

The cottage conversion at JH started T137, so US + FS would be about T160 at the earliest. However many turns to build Cristo before that gives us our window for JH to finish SoL, build some happiness, and whatever else. With the reduced hammers at JH, not as much time as we would probably like.
With Cristo beeing a 20 turn build... leaves us short already... Yet we want (I think) Levee > Factory > Plant first (atleast)

Though at 10 base hammers if we chop those other forests, 16 with the levee... Perhaps we should skip the Factory and plant untill after Cristo so we can revolt and get our hammers back!

I do not understand this statement? :confused: More cities == more maintenance == even further below breakeven. The new cities will need infra, so they will not be building gold to make up the difference -- at least not immediately.

I am still not convinced we want Joao's cities. Maybe conquer them for gold and then liberate them...possibly keeping the best ones or the ones with resources we do not have. But some of them are junk, like Sippar, and would just be a net drain.
I disagree... SdL is good for 32 GPT right now, so in fact we are at +31. Also Babylon is still unproductive in revolt, which is costing but not contributing.
Dur K. in particular will grow and add more, throw in Forbidden Palace or State property and we are good to grow a LOT more.

But running State Property means 2 less commerce per windmill and forest preserve. Do we have 25 windmlls + forest preserves? I think we do, or are at least close to that many. So Communism does not really save us any gold per turn. And we lose 6 health in every city, a significant loss.

I think staying in Enviro and building FP (and maybe Versailles) is the better approach. Keep all that windmill and preserve commerce, and reduce some of the distance cost. Plus the 2800 beaker research cost. Although the free GSpy could be useful.

And courthouses -- most of our city maintenance is number of cities maintenance, which is not affected by SP. We need the courthouses even if we adopt SP.
We WANT, not need.

# of city maintenance 33
Distance maintenance 35, we are paying more for distance than # of city.

A quick count carries me to 25 Windmills/Preserves, might be off by one or two.
Most thought like around JH/LM should be cottaged ASAP, while those around Sleeps should be Lumbered for hammers.
The windmills around SdL will ultimatly be mined as well as in TR. That leaves very few in i.e. CiB and FH... The health (I havent checked that yet) could be a problem though

SP blocks corporations, and Enviro boosts their costs. Not sure Mining Inc would be worthwhile. Our saved GE is for Three Gorges, although we might get another.
Fusion gives another GE, presuming we are first to get there :rolleyes:

I am considering Mining inc in the LATE LATE game, late late stages just before we start building the last big parts at that point every hammer counts.

I was leaning that way, and it looks like everyone agrees. Should we consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the tile? Having a single resource to sabotage...not good to risk it for something that important.
Just how important is coal? To build rails?? NOT !
Power! YES! but... only while we dont have Gorge.

Sounds good to me, Mastiff. Gives us time to discuss things properly. :D
Sounds and looks like we crossposted with a lot of simular stuff... Please check back...
Nevermind you already did :goodjob:

Well, knowledge is power. If the only aluminum is overseas, we'll have to go get it... It would help in planning. Also, marines are some tough dudes who can attack from ships with no penalty.

I'd say if we have the workers ready to build the rails for extra hammers, go RR. If we don't, then spend the next few turns on IND to reveal aluminum.

MF

Marines ... not that great IMHO, better to land tanks :)
Tanks are +4 strength get CR promotions vs Marines
Marines are Gunpowder units, should we run into Infantry
Tanks move 2 vs 1 of the Marine... or 6 of the Paratrooper...

Marines stink at everything but for stack defenders and maybe an amphibious assault, but you would need a floatilla to make a dent in the -expected- 20 defenders in Cuzco.

Intead land tanks near Tiwa, and have fun taking it. Fly in re-inforcements from the Airport.

Our workers are running out of cottages to build, but still have a cottage or two to build. Around LM, GV, BT, Dur K, Babylon (and a of other cities).
This will require quite a bit of worker shuffling, using move/RR to move 5 tiles and get 1 turn Railroad in we can still get a lot of Railroading done without losing out (much) of the cottage time. RR is Prio #1 now IMHO.

RR will not add many hammers at this time because we dont have (m)any mines... -yet-

If we go to war with Joao we develop new WW with him, starting from zero. But since WW depends on cities taken and units lost, it will climb fairly quickly to similar (or worse) levels as we are seeing now.
Sure but... we should have more units => War moves faster => Less time to suffer
Should have R&R and Eifel up for more happy... possibly add Odeons... I think the relative pain will be LESS. In part due to SoZ.

Unfortunatly we cannot even see Hammy's or Joao's civics so no gage in the power difference. Joao with 9 cities vs Hammy 8, I dont really see a big enough difference to account for "a lot more"... Even so we would be better equiped to deal with it...

I like the Medic 3 and two-move promotion for the 7 XP xbow, upgrading free to infantry. A fast, tough unit so it can move quickly to meet up with paras outside target cities, and heals adjacent stacks if it can not quite get there in time. Woods 3 would not be able to get the additional move promo, so it could not keep up with the paras.
A lot of forest still exist (in part maybe due to the Preserves) in Joao land, so a Woods 2 would have 2 moves there while any other doesnt. Hard choice...

Knowledge of aluminum could be crucial. What if the only source in the world is deep in Shaka's territory, or Stalin's?
Because our tanks vs Shaka's Riffles (if he gets that far) is just going to be a cake walk... Plans will IMHO not change upon Aluminium only in the far away...
Our 12-18 para's + some tanks probably will take out Joao while we build a small fleet of Transports in SdL/BT/IT (depending on where we are headed) load up some tanks and set off... we can/should/will be attacking 2 ways...

If not for the WW.... But the WW does exist, and it is going to continue existing
Yes it does excist but will drop ~50% next turn, Odeon the covers a lot more for only 30 hammers (modified) vs 201 hammers. Globe costs us ~170 hammers.
Even if we lose out on the Ocean tiles at 4 hammers/4 commerce, that is 40! turns to pay of the hammers! 4 Commerce / 8 beakers loss is a shame but not a great loss compared to our 1200+ beakers per turn.

IMHO Globe is USELESS and a waste of hammers!

A possibility, although I hate giving up all that windmill commerce. :cry: Beakers is still the key, not hammers, at least for a while longer yet.
Not quite yet, but at some point we are just going to have to find the commerce in Towns rather than Windmills, at that point specialisization is back baby! And mines WILL be build

Funny, I was thinking that at the start of my turnset....
Nope, not untill the original capitol falls.

See my previous post. SP does NOT YET save us money, and we still need those courthouses even with SP. And the health would be a serious loss.
YET is the keyword I added. A lot of the Environ + should go away anyway (see above) while the gains from SP just keeps on growing....

At some point in the non to near future the gain of Enviro is going to be the windmills in SdL + TR + CiB, some 15 = 30 commerce lost. Yes 6 health needs to be checked! But can be covered by building some Hospitals +3 where needed. Also Genetics supplies an additional 3 health with a tech we already need anyways.
JH and SdL at 2 and 5 surplus health are our biggest concernes, all others are at +7 and better.

IMPORTANT
I just noticed we are trading fur for Musicals with HC, we need to take care of that trade to not lose the Musicals when fur obsoletes.

KaleLambiek

May 20, 2009, 12:17 AM

I was wrong about the wIII medic 1 healer. It is the same as a medic III. Probably I'm so used to having WIII warriors in the early game I never bother with medics now. ;)

Woods 3 medic 3, now there is a healer! +40%! But unless you get (some) free promotions that is 7 promotions, 3,5,10,17,26,37,49 XP needed... 9 normal XP + 2 GGs
Doable with our 7 XP XBow, worth it? Dont know.

KaleLambiek

May 20, 2009, 11:41 AM

Looking again at the WW figures...

So a drop to 222 from 393 should...
19 * 393 / 200 * 100% * 90% * (100 + something)% - 2% = ~37%
37% of 19 = 7 unhappy

Some more experimenting, if Something is 16 right now (it seems to be something of an average), then we get 36.97%
Then a drop to 222 should make it
19 * 222 / 200 * 100% * 90% * (100 + 16)% - 2% = ~20%
20% of 19 = 3.8 ===> 3 ? Or 4?

Seeing as most things in Civ are rounded down, it should be 3! Giving us 4 (un)happies back leaving us some room to 'manouver'

If not for the WW.... But the WW does exist, and it is going to continue existing
If I got above right we should with an Odeon be good up to and including 393 WW points from our current 222.
That is good for 171 WW points.
At 6 per city taken and 4 cities left to take that accounts for 24, leaving 147.
At 3 WW per lost attacking battle, 147 / 3 = 49 lost battles
At 2 WW per defensive action (beeing attacked) 147 / 2 = 73 defensive battles
At 1 WW per won attacking battle, 147 battles.

Now lets guestimate... We will fight 10 defensive battles (if at all) for 20 WW.
We will have to attack 10 units per city for 40 attacks.
On average we lose 1/10, so we lose 4 battles and then have to attack 4 more times to kill the surviving defender.
4 * 3 = 12
40 * 1 = 40

Total to be expected WW, 20 + 12 + 40 = 72... We are going to have to DOUBLE that to get back to where we are now.
And even this is pretty high IMHO... 11 battles per city (with 1 lost)... I dont know...
but double that to 22 battles per city with 2 lost to get to where we are now... Not going to happen! Certainly not with more and more Drill 2/3/4 Troopers! Becoming more and more immune to (potential) damage done by the defenders.

Joao, should be even less with more Drill promoted Troopers to start with...

Then again looking at this, if above figures are right... How come we got so much WW already?? Something somewhere must be off??

Because our tanks vs Shaka's Riffles (if he gets that far) is just going to be a cake walk... Plans will IMHO not change upon Aluminium only in the far away...
Our 12-18 para's + some tanks probably will take out Joao while we build a small fleet of Transports in SdL/BT/IT (depending on where we are headed) load up some tanks and set off... we can/should/will be attacking 2 ways...
We DO need to plan to capture MoM say 25/30-ish turns from now, assuming we have 3 GA's at 9 turns each that is 27 turns
End goal ~197 - 27 = 170
If we aim for 4 consequetive GA's that comes down to turn 161.
Perhaps having Sleeps build the Para's is not enough and we need SdL and/or JH to join in building a few too... JH IMHO is going to be (to) bussy. SdL though is about done with Infra, add a barracks and get some additional Troopers??
On the other hand, we will need some ships too, assuming we go after MoM (must IMHO), 3 or 4 transports? Is it worth building a DryDocks?

Future gazing
Also assuming we run a lot of Golden Age turns we will be getting 1500+ beakers a turn (or even more!) with our current target at turn 195 and currently needing ~1258 beakers per turn...
We are set to finish teching (much) earlier than 195!!! At an average of 1500 beakers we should finish about 47 turns from now, which in turn means we 'need' MoM 47-27 = 20 turns from now, when we start the first GA...
i.e. We need to GET A MOVE ON to get MoM! Get ~8-12 units loaded into transports and GO GO GO!!!
20 turns to produce 12 units AND move them to Cuzco, needing 3 transports (atleast) is not a lot of time! And needing 2 turns to get from our (new)west coast to Cuzco too!
If we are 20 turns away from purpetual GA and are 20 turns away from finishing Cristo... How usefull is Cristo at that point??
Wouldnt we be better off building 9 troopers in JH in that time?? Downside would be no (quick) HR for a potential Rocketery trade... Alternative could be to grant HC peace in exchange for Rocketery... but I doubt somehow that will work.
Or is Rocketery worth 3/6 even 9 turns for GA? Will HC even trade Rocketery?? AI's usually dont trade space techs, because they "would rather win" or something alike right???
Are we sure he will trade? Can we be sure??
Well atleast we get some lose beakers for having an AI know the tech...

Do we have other options available like... Bribe Shaka or Stalin to attack HC, then DoW our attack dog ourselves... Should get a -1 with HC for bribing a war, but does the mutual strugle make that better?

Perhaps we should time building a galleon in those newly aquired western cities to queue-upgrade to Transports?
Or perhaps just build Galleons outright and use Cash to upgrade?
Or just use Galleons?
Do we want a defending/bombarding Frigate out there? Or do we count on the Galleons/transports beeing strong enough and the Tanks/Troopers strong enough to conquer any cultural barriers??
Note: Cuzco is wonder central with HIGH culture!

Tracking and Tracing as well as some timing/planning
I have made a little something something... Trying to keep track of progress and to be able to use to track other teams once we finish.
From this I learned that we started out at 4 turns per day and that has now dropped to an average 2.35 turns per day. Which is understandable seeing as we started out with 2 big turnsets and made shorter turnsets afterwards.
Assuming we keep an overall average of 1.75 turns per day and we have ~60 turns left.
Please plan to complete the game within three months of the start date
60/1.75 = 34.28 days. Add this to today, May 20th and we get to June 23, 4 days before the 'deadline' of 3 months... Considering our lead on the other teams, they have some catching up to do...
Then again:
I shall declare winners and losers from those teams that have finished on July 27, 2009
So we have a full month extra, despite this... Beeing the only team to finish 'on time' should be worth something?? 10 turns punishment for teams that dont make June 27?? Possibly multiply this with 67% because this is quick speed??
Or 2 turns per week? Or something :P ??

On a different note
HC has finished Rifling, and is now researching Rocketry!
HC, keep on helping us, or Kale will convince us to attack you
AI wont trade space techs... because "they would rather win" or something right??
Rocketery is a space tech, I think? Or isnt it becuase it doesnt directly enable spaceparts??

At the very least we get a few beakers discount for researching a non-monopoly tech... but thats no more than a few thought... Are we sure or can we be sure if HC will or will not trade Rocketery?
IMHO there isnt even a point of convincing... we need MoM IMHO... We simply NEED IT! there isnt even a choice of not attacking HC! Just wasting (or not having) 9 turns of GA is NOT an option...

ChrisFromLux

May 20, 2009, 12:11 PM

Then again looking at this, if above figures are right... How come we got so much WW already?? Something somewhere must be off??

Well, I assume defending against Airships also counts as a defensive action!?

We are at war for ~20 turns (?) * 6 Airships * 2 WW = 240 war weariness.
That is a bit too much WW, then :confused:

Or is Rocketery worth 3/6 even 9 turns for GA? Will HC even trade Rocketery?? AI's usually dont trade space techs, because they "would rather win" or something alike right???
Are we sure he will trade? Can we be sure??

I think that limit is only for space-ship-allowing techs!

60/1.75 = 34.28 days. Add this to today, May 20th and we get to June 23, 4 days before the 'deadline' of 3 months... Considering our lead on the other teams, they have some catching up to do...

Was any SGOTM ever finished at the deadline???

If we keep up our current speed, we should stay ahead of every team, so we should not get any problems!

KaleLambiek

May 20, 2009, 12:57 PM

First, special note... Hammy did settle his GA for us in Babylon! +3 gold +3 beakers :lol:

OK here is another shot at great persons we are going to get, note that most are Random except for the likely GM from LM.

Assuming we are in purpetual GA from turn 160 on.
Assuming CiB builds NE>Factory (+2 GE slots)> Lab (1 Scientist) to reach the required 9
>> We could also insert a 1 turn Theatre for 2 Artist slots earlier, but this doesnt change much...

Finishing SoL in JH and never run another non-SoL specialist again, which we will... but that doesnt change anything...
Run 4 specialists in FH from now on...
Assuming Babylon with 6 World wonders (thank you Hammy) gets out of revolt 9 turns from now and never runs a non-SoL specialist

Assuming we have a target of turn 195, so I am not going beyond that point...
GPP Turn City
0670 147 CiB
0804 158 CiB
0938 164 FH
1072 167 CiB
1206 177 LM
1340 179 CiB
1474 186 JH (in a tie with Babylon)
1608 189 Babylon (Babs)
1742 194 CiB

That is 9 more GPs and one GP stored makes 10 + Communism + Fusion

Now if we DO run 9 specialists in CiB from NOW on, this doesnt pull in an extra GP... It pulls forward the CiB specialists... but doesnt generate an extra GP.
If we continually run 3 specialists (SoL or otherwize or add 3 worldwonders like magic to JH) it doesnt change anything, except again pull forward JH GPs

What does change something is if we build an Odeon in 7 turns (after the lib) in FH and run the SoL + 5 specialists there the rest of the game.
This doesnt change much... but a little something, this could generate an extra GP at1876 GPP on turn 196, just out of scope....

If we find another city to spawn a GP in... this wouldnt, I think, change anything... Except again the extra GP at 1876 on turn 196...
Unless we find 2 cities to spawn an extra GP by turn 188, then and only then do we get an extra GP on turn 195 and another turn 197. This however is forcing the issue real hard...

Though we dont have full controle over the GPs we spawn, we can be reasonably sure to get 3 golden ages, perhaps 4. And still not need the Spy from Communism and use the GE from Fussion for Mining Inc, if not taken at that time...

Please find attached my spreadsheet on these figures... Please someone double check them??

KaleLambiek

May 20, 2009, 01:01 PM

Well, I assume defending against Airships also counts as a defensive action!?

We are at war for ~20 turns (?) * 6 Airships * 2 WW = 240 war weariness.
That is a bit too much WW, then :confused:
6 airships?? Hammy lost 6 in babylon IIRC.
I dont know if this is true, but this would account for the (in my eyes) missing WW points.... And this could mean a bit more trouble if Joao has more Airships than 6... :(

Nice catch... or atleast good idea...

If we keep up our current speed, we should stay ahead of every team, so we should not get any problems!
We shouldnt, but... well...

haphazard1

May 20, 2009, 03:36 PM

Looking again at the WW figures...

...

20% of 19 = 3.8 ===> 3 ? Or 4?

Seeing as most things in Civ are rounded down, it should be 3! Giving us 4 (un)happies back leaving us some room to 'manouver'

Sounds about right. I have not looked at the details of how WW is calculated, but my experience is that it builds up steadily, with big jumps as you take cities (lots of battles, plus the city itself).

If I got above right we should with an Odeon be good up to and including 393 WW points from our current 222.

...

That is good for 171 WW points.Total to be expected WW, 20 + 12 + 40 = 72... We are going to have to DOUBLE that to get back to where we are now.
And even this is pretty high IMHO... 11 battles per city (with 1 lost)... I dont know...
but double that to 22 battles per city with 2 lost to get to where we are now... Not going to happen!

We should be able to finish Hammi without reaching the level we had prior to capturing Babylon, I agree.

Certainly not with more and more Drill 2/3/4 Troopers! Becoming more and more immune to (potential) damage done by the defenders.

Joao, should be even less with more Drill promoted Troopers to start with...

The more highly promoted troopers definitely made a difference. The first couple Drill promos do not really have a big effect, but the third and especially the fourth really help. The reduction in collateral damage helps as well.

Then again looking at this, if above figures are right... How come we got so much WW already?? Something somewhere must be off??

Yeah, something is odd in the figures. Chris may be right about airship strikes. We have been at war with Hammi for about 18 turns, 6 zeps each turn.... Maybe?

We DO need to plan to capture MoM say 25/30-ish turns from now, assuming we have 3 GA's at 9 turns each that is 27 turns
End goal ~197 - 27 = 170
If we aim for 4 consequetive GA's that comes down to turn 161.
Perhaps having Sleeps build the Para's is not enough and we need SdL and/or JH to join in building a few too... JH IMHO is going to be (to) bussy. SdL though is about done with Infra, add a barracks and get some additional Troopers??
On the other hand, we will need some ships too, assuming we go after MoM (must IMHO), 3 or 4 transports? Is it worth building a DryDocks?

I was thinking similar thoughts about timing for an overseas war, only I was thinking in terms of aluminum. But Cuzco and MoM have similar constraints.

We are at T140 now, so we will need to move fast. Sleeps may not be enough to get that many paras; we currently have only 9 (same as at the start of my set, 3 paras built, 3 paras lost). SdL seems the best place, although maybe we want a factory first? JH needs levee and factory, and if we want to build Three Gorges do we want a coal plant? Even with the stored GE I believe we will have some hammers still needed.

Transports require oil or uranium, so to be ready in time we probably just build galleons. We need more of them and they move slower, but spending cash on upgrades costs too many beakers. I do not think we are going to have enough cash to spare and still stay at 100%.

Future gazing
Also assuming we run a lot of Golden Age turns we will be getting 1500+ beakers a turn (or even more!) with our current target at turn 195 and currently needing ~1258 beakers per turn...
We are set to finish teching (much) earlier than 195!!! At an average of 1500 beakers we should finish about 47 turns from now, which in turn means we 'need' MoM 47-27 = 20 turns from now, when we start the first GA...
i.e. We need to GET A MOVE ON to get MoM! Get ~8-12 units loaded into transports and GO GO GO!!!
20 turns to produce 12 units AND move them to Cuzco, needing 3 transports (atleast) is not a lot of time! And needing 2 turns to get from our (new)west coast to Cuzco too!
If we are 20 turns away from purpetual GA and are 20 turns away from finishing Cristo... How usefull is Cristo at that point??

This is a good point about Cristo -- maybe we ignore it and wait until our eternal golden age begins? But will we have Cuzco captured by T160, which is when the cottages at JH start becoming towns. Delaying the US + FS swap will cost us hammers and commerce.

Anyway, it sounds like attacking Joao gets put off, or possible skipped entirely. Finish Hammi, building paras non-stop in Sleeps and galleons in SdL and maybe TR, load up and go!

Wouldnt we be better off building 9 troopers in JH in that time?? Downside would be no (quick) HR for a potential Rocketery trade... Alternative could be to grant HC peace in exchange for Rocketery... but I doubt somehow that will work.
Or is Rocketery worth 3/6 even 9 turns for GA? Will HC even trade Rocketery?? AI's usually dont trade space techs, because they "would rather win" or something alike right???
Are we sure he will trade? Can we be sure??
Well atleast we get some lose beakers for having an AI know the tech...

Setting up a WorldBuilder test is probably the only way to be semi-sure if HC would trade. We can try a few things and see what happens.

Either way, HC should finish Rocketry a bit before we attack him. Maybe we can get it, maybe we can not. What if we vassalize him, then try to boost relations by gifting him cities taken from other AIs?

Do we have other options available like... Bribe Shaka or Stalin to attack HC, then DoW our attack dog ourselves... Should get a -1 with HC for bribing a war, but does the mutual strugle make that better?

Perhaps we should time building a galleon in those newly aquired western cities to queue-upgrade to Transports?
Or perhaps just build Galleons outright and use Cash to upgrade?
Or just use Galleons?
Do we want a defending/bombarding Frigate out there? Or do we count on the Galleons/transports beeing strong enough and the Tanks/Troopers strong enough to conquer any cultural barriers??
Note: Cuzco is wonder central with HIGH culture!

Using cash to upgrade -- I do not think we will have enough. And the new west coast cities will be too weak, or still in revolt. SdL and maybe TR should turn out a galleon or four.

And if we could get a frigate or two...we have seen the impact of attacking 60% defenses in Babylon against maces and xbows. HC has Rifling and can build paras. If Cuzco has even 3-5 fortified CG paras...it could be a very ugly fight. Lowering the culture defense even partially could make a big difference to our success. We should seriously consider bringing a few cannon along. Even "just" rifles fortified in a 60% culture city make a very tough shell to crack.

Tracking and Tracing as well as some timing/planning
I have made a little something something... Trying to keep track of progress and to be able to use to track other teams once we finish.
From this I learned that we started out at 4 turns per day and that has now dropped to an average 2.35 turns per day. Which is understandable seeing as we started out with 2 big turnsets and made shorter turnsets afterwards.
Assuming we keep an overall average of 1.75 turns per day and we have ~60 turns left.

60/1.75 = 34.28 days. Add this to today, May 20th and we get to June 23, 4 days before the 'deadline' of 3 months... Considering our lead on the other teams, they have some catching up to do...
Then again:

So we have a full month extra, despite this... Beeing the only team to finish 'on time' should be worth something?? 10 turns punishment for teams that dont make June 27?? Possibly multiply this with 67% because this is quick speed??
Or 2 turns per week? Or something :P ??

No official bonuses, as per the Geezers experience last game. You just get to watch the other teams as they try to finish. Although that can be a good bit of fun. :)

Was any SGOTM ever finished at the deadline???

If we keep up our current speed, we should stay ahead of every team, so we should not get any problems!

Some of the other teams have been catching up, and are well into AD years now. But there are still plenty of teams lagging, with a lot of turns to play in the remaining time.

First, special note... Hammy did settle his GA for us in Babylon! +3 gold +3 beakers :lol:

Yes, I noticed that. Very kind of him. :D

OK here is another shot at great persons we are going to get, note that most are Random except for the likely GM from LM.

Assuming we are in purpetual GA from turn 160 on.
Assuming CiB builds NE>Factory (+2 GE slots)> Lab (1 Scientist) to reach the required 9
>> We could also insert a 1 turn Theatre for 2 Artist slots earlier, but this doesnt change much...

I think we do want that theater, though. Citizen specialists do not provide GPP.

Finishing SoL in JH and never run another non-SoL specialist again, which we will... but that doesnt change anything...
Run 4 specialists in FH from now on...
Assuming Babylon with 6 World wonders (thank you Hammy) gets out of revolt 9 turns from now and never runs a non-SoL specialist

Assuming we have a target of turn 195, so I am not going beyond that point...
GPP Turn City
0670 147 CiB
0804 158 CiB
0938 164 FH
1072 167 CiB
1206 177 LM
1340 179 CiB
1474 186 JH (in a tie with Babylon)
1608 189 Babylon (Babs)
1742 194 CiB

Doesn't the GPP needed per GP start going up in larger increments at some point?

That is 9 more GPs and one GP stored makes 10 + Communism + Fusion

Still not sure we want Communism, but we will see.

Now if we DO run 9 specialists in CiB from NOW on, this doesnt pull in an extra GP... It pulls forward the CiB specialists... but doesnt generate an extra GP.
If we continually run 3 specialists (SoL or otherwize or add 3 worldwonders like magic to JH) it doesnt change anything, except again pull forward JH GPs

What does change something is if we build an Odeon in 7 turns (after the lib) in FH and run the SoL + 5 specialists there the rest of the game.
This doesnt change much... but a little something, this could generate an extra GP at1876 GPP on turn 196, just out of scope....

This is interesting, and should be considered. FH is not exactly leaving a bunch of prime tiles unworked. And in case we do not quite hit our target (or even if we do), we will still be building SS parts. The extra GP might be useful.

If we find another city to spawn a GP in... this wouldnt, I think, change anything... Except again the extra GP at 1876 on turn 196...
Unless we find 2 cities to spawn an extra GP by turn 188, then and only then do we get an extra GP on turn 195 and another turn 197. This however is forcing the issue real hard...

:agree: 2 more cities to run lots of specialists does not seem likely. Any thoughts on the possibility of running Pacifism once we start our eternal GA and can swap at will? (Note that Cristo could still be useful to allow swaps every turn; GA provides anarchy free swaps but still requires 5 turns between revolts.)

Though we dont have full controle over the GPs we spawn, we can be reasonably sure to get 3 golden ages, perhaps 4. And still not need the Spy from Communism and use the GE from Fussion for Mining Inc, if not taken at that time...

Please find attached my spreadsheet on these figures... Please someone double check them??

When I can find some time, I will try to check these.

OK, back to what I mentioned above on aluminum, in case it is overseas and we need a war to get it. Our current targer of T195 is to complete the last SS techs for the final parts -- most of the parts should be started/built before then. Say we start building them around T180 (it could be earlier, but this is to determine timelines). That means Apollo finishes then, and since it needs aluminum we should aim to have the resource hooked up and ready no later than T170.

Given Kale's excellent analysis that we could potentially beat our T195 target, perhaps by a good bit, and that we would like to have more time to build the small parts. Let's say we should have aluminum hooked up by T165 -- 25 turns from now.

We need Industrialism to reveal where aluminum is. If we leave it until after Steel, RR, Combustion and then find the only aluminum is deep in Stalin or Shaka's territory, our window for capturing and hooking up the aluminum will not be large enough and we will have to delay SS parts. Or spend more hammers on them -- aluminum is not truly mandatory, after all.

+150% (forge, factory, power, lab) vs +250% (all that, plus aluminum) would mean an effective increase of 40% in hammers required for all aluminum parts, plus Apollo. A sizable increase in hammers, but something which could be handled. Especially since we could start Apollo earlier to allow more time for our lesser-production cities to crank out the smaller parts.

Maybe we do not care particularly about aluminum? Grab it if we can do so easily, and otherwise not worry?

ChrisFromLux

May 20, 2009, 04:05 PM

6 airships?? Hammy lost 6 in babylon IIRC.

Yes, he lost all his Airships (= 6) in Babylon ... but I don't remember if he already had 6 in my turnset? But this could be the explanation of the WW, and of course, it will give us trouble in Portugal ...

OTOH, we'll start with 0 WW again, and we'll have more units this time ... then again, Portugal is bigger ... :(

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 20, 2009, 05:15 PM

A few things:

1) I think we need an end game strategy. Without knowing the location of aluminum, which we must have, we can't do that. We're discussing attacking or not attacking Big Hat, but we don't know if he has our resource. If I tech Indy first, I can stop, upload the save, show screenies of the location, and we can prepare for war if we need to attack someone.

2) Regarding the end game, I think we need some #'s on what we gain from the MoM versus what we lose taking Cuzco. By the time we hit HC, he'll have SAMs, so airships will die quickly. Also, if we have to get aluminum from, say, Shaka... can we afford two wars?

3) We should send a spy to see how many EPs it will take to steal a tech from HC. If he won't give up rocketry, why not steal it? Additionally, a great spy gives an extra 3000 EP, so if it's cheaper to research Communism, should we take the chance?

4) I'm making a big list of comments... and I'll be making a turnset plan tonight, if all goes well.

KaleLambiek

May 21, 2009, 02:18 AM

I was thinking similar thoughts about timing for an overseas war, only I was thinking in terms of aluminum. But Cuzco and MoM have similar constraints.
We have so much more time for Aluminium than we do MoM. I think we will have Aluminium on our continent, even our home land...

We are at T140 now, so we will need to move fast. Sleeps may not be enough to get that many paras; we currently have only 9 (same as at the start of my set, 3 paras built, 3 paras lost). SdL seems the best place, although maybe we want a factory first? JH needs levee and factory, and if we want to build Three Gorges do we want a coal plant? Even with the stored GE I believe we will have some hammers still needed.
This is my point... A trooper is.,..
4 turns in SdL
4 turns in JH
2 turns in Sleeps
4 troopers build every 4 turns, in 20 turns we have 20 troopers... Which is considerable, but doesnt leave any room for infra... I think we do want the factories in SdL and JH as well as the coal plant and levee in JH. Problem with this is this costs a total of 12 turns in JH! (not counting 3 turns of SoL, which come on top of that. Reducing the troopers to 16
SdL will take 1 for the Airport, 6 for the Factory, 1 for a Odeon? total 8 turns. Costing again 2 Troopers to 14.

Assuming no losses that is JUST enough... now IT can build some Troopers for us, Customs > Temple > Barracks? > Troopers
8 turns of Infra + 2 troopers = 20 turns... a little late... but reinforcements for Joao.

We need more troopers and we need them inside 10 turns. I think we should do now what we should have done 20-ish turns ago... and a good lesson for next game(s). If you plan to go to war, go to war and quit the Infra...
For this to work I think we need to have EACH AND EVERY city that can build a Trooper in less than say 10 turns (just about every city!) build one without a barracks...
The difference in # of troopers is huge, while the effective difference is NOT that big in the Drill 1 promotion...
Only cities that do get barracks are where we will build good numbers SdL and IT.
This gives us a bunch of extra troopers that can go after Joao, and in particular COIMBRA, this is founded ON oil
The second we research Combustion we have it connected and can start building Tanks (12 turns from now).

We also want to bring in some Cannons I think to HC... If only to sacrifice in case we run into any Sams... Unfortunatly everything DOES upgrade to SAMs even without the intermediate Infantry beeing available, so TANKS are NOT optional!

We also want atleast 3 maybe more Zeppelins, though with Oil on the Horizon and Bombers, not to many...

Transports require oil or uranium, so to be ready in time we probably just build galleons. We need more of them and they move slower, but spending cash on upgrades costs too many beakers. I do not think we are going to have enough cash to spare and still stay at 100%.
With Oil in 12 turns and some part-builds of Galleons, only just not finished... They will upgrade in que to Transports.
A Galleon is 53 hammers a transport 83... Now for example, TR if we fire the engineer to work the Lake... It dumps all production into a trooper, at this point it is producing 25 hammers/turn for 50 hammers pre-build Transport leaving only 33 to the complete transport. Playing a little with some overflow that is a 1 turn build.

We can do something Simular at Sippar and SdL, with SdL building a complete new one for a total of 4 and 16 units to be transported... It is IMPERATIVE that we DO NOT finish these Galleons!
Perhaps only 3 is enough? as we do have the "spare" galleon available?
Perhaps we can sail the "Atlantis" galleon around and build a say privateer or Frigate in BT?
Perhaps -if our map is up-to-date- we can transport already some troopers to the Pig SE of Cuzco... There doesnt seem to be any culture there... For some quick reinforcements... Once the war starts. This is going to be a "precision" strike, it all HAS to come together!!

This is a good point about Cristo -- maybe we ignore it and wait until our eternal golden age begins? But will we have Cuzco captured by T160, which is when the cottages at JH start becoming towns. Delaying the US + FS swap will cost us hammers and commerce.
The cost of 1 or 2 turns delay is minimal, the cost of Cristo is 1000 hammers

Anyway, it sounds like attacking Joao gets put off, or possible skipped entirely. Finish Hammi, building paras non-stop in Sleeps and galleons in SdL and maybe TR, load up and go!
NO it doesnt, we NEED that Oil and those Tanks! IMHO, Also Joao NEEDS TO DIE! :lol:

Either way, HC should finish Rocketry a bit before we attack him. Maybe we can get it, maybe we can not. What if we vassalize him, then try to boost relations by gifting him cities taken from other AIs?
Maybe, but... Problem might be... We do want to keep Cuzco! Atleast untill the GA's are triggered...

And if we could get a frigate or two...we have seen the impact of attacking 60% defenses in Babylon against maces and xbows. HC has Rifling and can build paras. If Cuzco has even 3-5 fortified CG paras...it could be a very ugly fight. Lowering the culture defense even partially could make a big difference to our success. We should seriously consider bringing a few cannon along. Even "just" rifles fortified in a 60% culture city make a very tough shell to crack.
Agree need a few cannons (4?) to help and IMHO Tanks are NON-Optional for the CR promotions (and added strength)

Also taking Tiwanaku first, to allow 4 zeppelins to fly in and help...

I think we do want that theater, though. Citizen specialists do not provide GPP.
The theatre thought doesnt change the GPs born... It just delays the factory by 1 turn :eek: Which IMHO is not a good thing. Moreso if we do go with above "Build para's all over"-plan it delays a para 1 turn.
I would have to check that spreadsheet to see if going Para > Factory will cause "GP trouble"!

Doesn't the GPP needed per GP start going up in larger increments at some point?
Yes it does, 67 for the first 10, then 134 (2*67) for the next 10, then I dont know...
But this is used in the spreadsheet as well...
938 - 804 = 134

This is interesting, and should be considered. FH is not exactly leaving a bunch of prime tiles unworked. And in case we do not quite hit our target (or even if we do), we will still be building SS parts. The extra GP might be useful.
Well no... We probably will be getting there earlier than 195 (see earlier post(s)) so the extra GP will probably be mostly useless (for tech purposes) Perhaps a late ditch GA? But we have to make the descision NOW to go for it, that is the important part.

Also I dont know if I find proof anywhere down the line, but PLEASE someone check the spreadsheet for problems?

2 more cities to run lots of specialists does not seem likely. Any thoughts on the possibility of running Pacifism once we start our eternal GA and can swap at will? (Note that Cristo could still be useful to allow swaps every turn; GA provides anarchy free swaps but still requires 5 turns between revolts.)
5 turns is a minimal impact, if we want to run any civics -baring slavery- its gonna be longer than 5 turns anyways. Dont know if Slavery for 1 turn to whip something here or there is worth 1000 hammers at a time we need those hammers for :hammer::ar15::assimilate:

As for pacifism.... The impact is minimal but there.
If we run Pacifism from turn 172 onwards we pull the GP from CiB forwards to turn 189 (or 5 turns), this could be important... However even running Pacifism from now to the end game DOES NOT generate an additional GP.

When I can find some time, I will try to check these.
We NEED someone to double check this... If its broke this could have serious implications. Though either way I think having 3 GA's (6 GPs) is pretty much guaranteed.

OK, back to what I mentioned above on aluminum, in case it is overseas and we need a war to get it. Our current targer of T195 is to complete the last SS techs for the final parts -- most of the parts should be started/built before then. Say we start building them around T180 (it could be earlier, but this is to determine timelines). That means Apollo finishes then, and since it needs aluminum we should aim to have the resource hooked up and ready no later than T170.
NO, Apollos doesnt NEED aluminium... Aluminium speeds it up saving some considerable hammers... But it is NOT needed!

Maybe we do not care particularly about aluminum? Grab it if we can do so easily, and otherwise not worry?

OK, well you atleast agree it is not needed. The question though is... What is more important? Oil ASAP (transports and Tanks), making sure we get the MoM and purpetual GA... Or... Knowing where aluminium is?

For any strategy to be competative I dont think it would be wize to have the only Aluminium sit deep inside Russian territory. Instead it would have to be somewhere on North America, possibly Hammy territory or even our Own...
It is concievable that some teams will go for a Peacefull game trading and pushing hard on the AI to get ++ Beakers from trade. Such a peacefull game can only be competative IF Aluminium is on our continent.

If it is not the peacefull game just loses out on to much hammers to be able to compete.

Given Kale's excellent analysis that we could potentially beat our T195 target, perhaps by a good bit, and that we would like to have more time to build the small parts. Let's say we should have aluminum hooked up by T165 -- 25 turns from now.
Oh... Shucks, :blush: Thanks for the complement though :)

then again, Portugal is bigger ... :(
But only slightly, I count 9 cities vs the 8 of Hammy.

A few things:

1) I think we need an end game strategy. Without knowing the location of aluminum, which we must have, we can't do that. We're discussing attacking or not attacking Big Hat, but we don't know if he has our resource. If I tech Indy first, I can stop, upload the save, show screenies of the location, and we can prepare for war if we need to attack someone.
Do we really think if we own 30% of the world (Hammy + our own + Joao + HC)
I think a (semi-) peacefull game in the mind of the game/competition creators must atleast be competative... No way to be competative without Aluminium...

2) Regarding the end game, I think we need some #'s on what we gain from the MoM versus what we lose taking Cuzco. By the time we hit HC, he'll have SAMs, so airships will die quickly. Also, if we have to get aluminum from, say, Shaka... can we afford two wars?
We can afford 3 wars at that time :lol: The Sams though is going to be a potential problem :( Which is why we NEED tanks...
MoM adds 9 turns of GA for roughly 190 population Lets say 150 base commerce per turn at +50% 225 beakers * 9 = 2025 beakers (a very carefull estimate I would say)
Also adds say 150 hammers * 50% on average 2025 hammers (20 troopers worth)

Plus once HC is gone with his Sams... the rest of the world is at our feet for 100+ gold per city.
10% on the slider = 47g and 95 beakers. Still 1:2 conversion.
So if we need the gold that is 200 beakers per city captured...

Not an option to NOT do IMHO.

3) We should send a spy to see how many EPs it will take to steal a tech from HC. If he won't give up rocketry, why not steal it? Additionally, a great spy gives an extra 3000 EP, so if it's cheaper to research Communism, should we take the chance?
Steeling techs is very expesive though...

4) I'm making a big list of comments... and I'll be making a turnset plan tonight, if all goes well.

Great :goodjob: Looking forward to it

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 10:36 AM

Great :goodjob: Looking forward to it

?drawkcab ygnipt ym si yhW

KaleLambiek

May 21, 2009, 10:47 AM

?drawkcab ygnipt ym si yhW

Why is my tpingy backward? I made a copy error? Whats this about?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 11:10 AM

Why is my tpingy backward? I made a copy error? Whats this about?

That was crazy! I had to shut down my browser and reboot! Never had it happen before! :crazyeye:

I had some stuff come up last night, but I am working on a plan... I'm grabbing all the comments, putting them in a word file and sorting things out! :D

haphazard1

May 21, 2009, 12:47 PM

We have so much more time for Aluminium than we do MoM. I think we will have Aluminium on our continent, even our home land...

More on this later, but I am skeptical about aluminum on our continent.

Let's look at a calculation first, from later in your post:

MoM adds 9 turns of GA for roughly 190 population Lets say 150 base commerce per turn at +50% 225 beakers * 9 = 2025 beakers (a very carefull estimate I would say)
Also adds say 150 hammers * 50% on average 2025 hammers (20 troopers worth)

Hmmm. So the beaker bonus is less than 2 turns at our 100% research rate. We will lose some valuable overseas trade routes, plus maintenance for units outside our culture for a number of turns. We do gain some pillage gold. We will come out ahead, perhaps 1.5 turns or so of research.

On hammers, we need to offset against something like:

3 transports at 84 each = 252
4 cannon at 67 each = 268
6 tanks at 120 each = 720
2 paras at 107 each = 214

That is 1464 hammers cost for a minimum force to take Cuzco; we may want more units to be certain of taking the city. Still, there is probably a profit of a few hundred hammers overall.

Plus we get the benefits (anarchy free revolts, increased GPP) of more golden age turns. Looks like taking Cuzco is a positive, if we can pull it off in time without delaying too much critical infrastructure or otherwise costing ourselves too much for the whole thing to pay off.

We need more troopers and we need them inside 10 turns. I think we should do now what we should have done 20-ish turns ago... and a good lesson for next game(s). If you plan to go to war, go to war and quit the Infra...
For this to work I think we need to have EACH AND EVERY city that can build a Trooper in less than say 10 turns (just about every city!) build one without a barracks...

I do not really agree on this -- war and conquest has never been the primary goal in this game. Getting to space faster is the goal. Some war against Hammi was judged to benefit us more than it cost us, but it was a sideline and not the main action. Delaying all the infrastructure we built in the last 20 turns would not have been worthwhile. So we fought a limited war because that was all we could spare from more important projects.

We still have crucial infrastructure which needs to be built, and built soon. Factories are the most important, along with levees and some wonders (SoL (remainder), R&R, IW, Apollo, possibly Cristo). All of this -- including Apollo -- needs to be finished in time for us to start building SS parts by about T180 at latest, preferably sooner.

The difference in # of troopers is huge, while the effective difference is NOT that big in the Drill 1 promotion...
Only cities that do get barracks are where we will build good numbers SdL and IT.
This gives us a bunch of extra troopers that can go after Joao, and in particular COIMBRA, this is founded ON oil
The second we research Combustion we have it connected and can start building Tanks (12 turns from now).

War with Hammi, war with Joao, war with HC...I really think this is over-committing. We are only fighting to advance our launch date, we are not fighting for conquest -- in other words, fighting is optional and should only be done if there is a clear benefit. Fighting three wars at once is not beneficial.

If we really want to conquer Cuzco within 20 turns...probably not possible, actually. Just finishing Hammi is going to take 12-15 turns. And why worry about Coimbra (and Joao) at all? To build tanks, we need Combustion and Industrialization...by which point we are 1 tech (Plastics) from hooking up our own oil near IT. Certainly we can research Plastics and have one WB ready for FAR less effort/cost than taking Coimbra. So why bother Joao at all, at least until after the Cuzco force has set sail?

Why bother Joao at all, really? The cities certainly will never be productive in any significant way in time to contribute, so the only benefit is pillage gold. And we can get some of that with a limited military force, without spending hundereds of hammers on more units when we could be finishing factories and levees and starting SS parts.

We also want to bring in some Cannons I think to HC... If only to sacrifice in case we run into any Sams... Unfortunatly everything DOES upgrade to SAMs even without the intermediate Infantry beeing available, so TANKS are NOT optional!

We must have cannons, at least 4 I think. And mostly to reduce the city defenses, although using them for sacrificial collateral damage to start the main assault will also help. If we leave 60% (at least, Cuzco might have 80% but probably 60%) in place even tanks are going to have a very difficult time.

SAM Infantry CG1, fortified, 60% = 18 STR at +105%
CR2 tank (built in Sleeps) is 28 with +45% CR

This nets to 18 defender with 60% total bonus = 28.8 net against our 28 tank. Less than 50% odds.

Rifles would be a bit easier for us, but rifles will be the weakest unit. Consider if Joao has even a couple of paras built: 24 at +60% net odds = 38.4 net against our 28 tank. Ugly, very very ugly for us.

We also want atleast 3 maybe more Zeppelins, though with Oil on the Horizon and Bombers, not to many...

With SAMs defending, zeps are useless. And we would have to take a second city to base them. I think we just take more cannon -- more effective anyway.

With Oil in 12 turns and some part-builds of Galleons, only just not finished... They will upgrade in que to Transports.

Upgrading in queue is useful, yes. But oil in 12 turns? :eek: Not likely to happen, unless we abandon the war against Hammi.

NO it doesnt, we NEED that Oil and those Tanks! IMHO, Also Joao NEEDS TO DIE! :lol:

I disagree that we need to attack Joao at all, except maybe later for some quick pillage gold. Research plastics and build a WB at IT - instant oil.

Maybe, but... Problem might be... We do want to keep Cuzco! Atleast untill the GA's are triggered...

We would not give Cuzco back, just other cities. Like maybe WK's cities. :evil: Anyway, that is just an idea if we think we can get Rocketry if HC is friendly. If he will not trade it even at friendly, then forget it.

Agree need a few cannons (4?) to help and IMHO Tanks are NON-Optional for the CR promotions (and added strength)

Also taking Tiwanaku first, to allow 4 zeppelins to fly in and help...

If HC has SAMs, zeps are useless. Take more cannon, and we can skip Tiwanaku.

5 turns is a minimal impact, if we want to run any civics -baring slavery- its gonna be longer than 5 turns anyways. Dont know if Slavery for 1 turn to whip something here or there is worth 1000 hammers at a time we need those hammers for :hammer::ar15::assimilate:

Having the option for some quick whips would be useful, especially in newly conquered cities like Sippar. But I guess we will never get around to building Cristo, or R&R, or Eiffel. :( We wasted the Liberalism tech, and should have taken Fission or Genetics. :(

As for pacifism.... The impact is minimal but there.
If we run Pacifism from turn 172 onwards we pull the GP from CiB forwards to turn 189 (or 5 turns), this could be important... However even running Pacifism from now to the end game DOES NOT generate an additional GP.

OK, if it does not actually generate any additional GP by T195, we probably do not need to worry about running Pacifism.

NO, Apollos doesnt NEED aluminium... Aluminium speeds it up saving some considerable hammers... But it is NOT needed!

Then perhaps we should push ahead to Rocketry ASAP and start building it? Start getting those parts into the sky.

OK, well you atleast agree it is not needed. The question though is... What is more important? Oil ASAP (transports and Tanks), making sure we get the MoM and purpetual GA... Or... Knowing where aluminium is?

I would say knowing where aluminum is. The capture MoM plan will probably pay off modestly (but not hugely). I really think we should be building Apollo no later than about 15 turns from now, so we can start getting SS parts into build queues.

War is a luxury. MoM is a luxury. Neither will win the game. Finishing techs and building SS parts will win the game.

For any strategy to be competative I dont think it would be wize to have the only Aluminium sit deep inside Russian territory. Instead it would have to be somewhere on North America, possibly Hammy territory or even our Own...
It is concievable that some teams will go for a Peacefull game trading and pushing hard on the AI to get ++ Beakers from trade. Such a peacefull game can only be competative IF Aluminium is on our continent.

If it is not the peacefull game just loses out on to much hammers to be able to compete.

I think the opposite -- that being able to carry out a quick overseas war of conquest for aluminum will prove important. Teams that choose the peaceful path will need to hope they can trade for some aluminum...once their AI trade partners have Industrialism and can hook it up, of course.

For a game that is defined as a space race from the start, I can not see Gyathaar not making acquisition of aluminum a challenge.

Oh... Shucks, :blush: Thanks for the complement though :)

You have done a ton of great work throughout this game calculating many things. It is greatly appreciated, even if I seem to be disagreeing a lot of the time. :lol:

Do we really think if we own 30% of the world (Hammy + our own + Joao + HC)
I think a (semi-) peacefull game in the mind of the game/competition creators must atleast be competative... No way to be competative without Aluminium...

Hope for aluminum in trade?

We can afford 3 wars at that time :lol: The Sams though is going to be a potential problem :( Which is why we NEED tanks...

We can afford it, but does it pay off in a faster launch?

Plus once HC is gone with his Sams... the rest of the world is at our feet for 100+ gold per city.
10% on the slider = 47g and 95 beakers. Still 1:2 conversion.
So if we need the gold that is 200 beakers per city captured...

If we need the gold...but do we? We have cash on hand for about 10 turns, which gets us to T150. The merchant just starting towards Cuzco should give us another 10 turns worth or so, for T160. NE non-build cash is worth another 3 turns or so for T163. Hammi's last four cities should give another 3 turns or so for T166.

That is 26 turns from now, during which we should be able to complete the key remaining infra (factories, levees, some happiness here and there) and start building some gold, which will lower our per-turn burn rate and significantly extend the value of our hoarded cash. Add more pillage cash for "catch and release" of Joao's cities to a new colony or vassal, and we are starting to look pretty good indeed.

Not an option to NOT do IMHO.

I am less certain that it is worth delaying our infra to push for an immediate "build troops everywhere" strategy, or that we need Joao's oil when our own can be hooked up almost as quickly (or perhaps even equally quickly, or more quickly).

We should begin preparing an overseas invasion force, whether we use it for Cuzco or aluminum or both will have to be seen. (Hmmm...real world Australia produces a lot of raw materials and metals. Aluminum in HC's lands???) But I would like to see crucial infra continue to be built where possible.

For tech path, maybe Steel (to get cannon available, and drydocks to prepare for building ships), then Industrialism to reveal aluminum, then RR and Combustion and Plastics? Delaying RR a few turns does not cost us much at all, and knowledge of aluminum could impact our planning significantly.

haphazard1

May 21, 2009, 01:32 PM

OK, took a closer look at Kale's spreadsheet for GP generation.

Some small points (see below), but one big problem - JH. You show JH with 5 wonder points now, increasing to 7 on T142 (completion of SoL). But it then jumps to 9 the following turn? What will produce these additional points?

This turns out to be crucial, as with only 7 wonder points per turn JH never has enough GPP to actually spawn a great person. So we end up with only 8 before T195. Getting some more GPP into JH is critical to get that ninth GP before T195. If JH goes to 9 wonder points from 7, then this must happen no later than T164 or the ninth GP is later than T195. Not getting the extra GPP by about T148 means we get the JH GP in the early 190's, with another GP a turn or two later -- possibly too late to do much good.

Some minor points:

CiB - Specialists should be 6 now, 7 as of T142 (SoL), 8 as of T151 (7th preserve), T161 (8th preserve). We can obviously speed up the last two preserves by sending more workers, either the two chopping forests outside the FC or some from JH as the cottaging is mostly done.

This will not have a significant effect on total GP before T195, but getting the preserves as soon as possible could pull the last GP forward a turn or two which could be valuable.

FH - Specialists should not fall to zero due to SoL; 1 will remain. Either way, the city will not produce another GP before T195, even if we keep running 4 or 5 specialists. But the city could run more than that. With 6 specialsts we get another GP right at T195 for 10 total. I think this is worth doing as a backup policy, in case we get too many GP of one type.

Overall, very nice work, Kale. :goodjob: We just need to check JH, and see what we can do to make certain we get a bit more GPP there.

Sleepless

May 21, 2009, 01:43 PM

I tried to write a post at work (where I still am :)). earlier. Basically it agrees with everything haphazard1 mentioned in his last post.

We will lose a lot of trade/resource income when we attack our oppos so it will probably pay just to build wealth in our non ss producing cities. When they've finished there parts build wealth there as well.

I prefer IW in JH now and go to space with 1 engine. As it seems very unlikely we will build any more wonders I would use the GE on an instant IW here. Possibly a second engine somwhere but it depends on the build time. I do think aluminium is very important to have. Whether it is worth going to war for :dunno:.

More later ;)

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 01:52 PM

I'm going to primarily agree with Hap here. If MoM was that important, we should have built it. Now, if HC has the only aluminum, we need to kick his butt anyway... but we don't know that. I still think INDY > RR.

Also, not taken into account in all the war planning is the WW. If we were just trying to win, great, we have SoZ now, and they'd hurt badly, but we're trying to beat other teams. I think war just takes away from the focus on the goal... space.

While we're NOT building troops, we can get the infra we really need for speed. Factories, levees, the TGD for electricity. In fact, if we aren't going to war, we can go Indy > RR > Combust > Plastics > Computers... I think you also need Fiber Optics, but a 1000 hammer build for the internet, and we'll get all those techs backfilled! Additionally, it opens Robotics for the Space Elevator.

Granted, if we have to go fetch aluminum, we have to go to war. But I think I'd use the JIT theory to make the "JE" or "just enough" theory, too. We make JE military to snatch what we have to have. After looking at Haps numbers, I don't think it's worth going to Cuzco... to maybe save 1.5 turns? And hammers, I think we'll lose out, especially not keeping on with factories and such. And if we aren't going to war, we can build gold instead of troops...

Just my thoughts...

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 01:58 PM

Oh, and how is HC building Rocketry without Arty? Or... does he have it? If so, taking Cuzco will be very tough.

Sleepless

May 21, 2009, 03:19 PM

Oh, and how is HC building Rocketry without Arty? Or... does he have it? If so, taking Cuzco will be very tough.

Flight also leads to rocketry thats why we don't need to get art either. :)

The Internet. No point in building this as we wouldn't get any techs from it. Also I can't see any point in building the Space Elevator as we would need robotics which isn't a required tech.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 05:07 PM

How could he have flight? That would take combustion... Wish I had the game here at work. :(

Sleepless

May 21, 2009, 05:12 PM

How could he have flight? That would take combustion... Wish I had the game here at work. :(

Flight was one of the free techs we all got. :)

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 21, 2009, 05:38 PM

*slaps forehead* Of course... I must be getting old.

haphazard1

May 21, 2009, 06:21 PM

I do not want to dismiss the idea of conquering Cuzco -- saving 1 or 2 turns could be the difference between a laurel and finishing just out of the winner's circle. But I want to think through what would be required in more detail, make certain it will actually work, and figure out how it will impact our preparations for space.

I will try to put in some time on this over the weekend. What I am hoping to come up with is a detailed timeline for the end game -- what you mentioned earlier, Mastiff. Which techs do we skip, and which order will we research the SS techs, and when (approximately) can we expect to have them completed? Where will we build which SS parts, starting when?

We have known from the start that the overall game was beaker-limited, but that at some point the priority would shift to being hammer-limited. But when will that be, exactly? How long do we have to build infra and other stuff before the SS parts go into the queues? Is there room for a nice invasion force? Maybe there is only room if we have (or can get) aluminum? What if there is no aluminum anywhere -- what does that do to our planning?

Which part(s) do we want to be the very last -- the one(s) we start frantically building in our hammer-maxed-out IW city as it starves to speed up the build by one precious turn? Do we have enough workers to mass-convert a city or two (JH?) from cottages to workshops for the final part(s)? Where will the lesser parts be built, and how long will it take?

Do we have enough gold, from whatever sources, to complete our research without delays? If not, where do we get it? Do we have enough happiness to keep our population working, enough health to grow our cities to effective size?

These are the sort of questions I want to try to answer. Maybe we have plenty of time for a round of military builds and can happily conquer Joao and HC and WK and half of Stalin. Maybe we do not have time for much military at all. Something in between is most likely, but we need to have a more detailed idea how the final drive to space is going to happen.

On IW...another GE might be useful if we get one and can spare it from the golden age stack. Our current sleeping GE is intended for the Three Gorges, to get us power quickly without building a ton of coal plants. But we still need factories, and levees where appropriate, and some happiness buildings, and R&R, and Eiffel.... There is plenty to build, and I want to know if we can afford a bunch of extra military.

Because if we can, Cuzco saves us a turn or two, and conquering Joao really helps the cash flow issues, and any aluminum out there is ours, all ours! :evil:

But if we can not afford a lot of military, we will have to pick and choose carefully among our various options.

JerichoHill

May 21, 2009, 08:03 PM

Before I leave on vacation, intuitively I like Mastiff's suggestion, as it eliminates an unknown and therefore makes our strategy that much more efficient going forward.

I'll try and chime in, but I leave tomorrow morning! Goodnight!
(My vacation details are in Off-Topic, under Flying)

KaleLambiek

May 21, 2009, 11:15 PM

Quick responses... Others need more time to think about/compile

Some small points (see below), but one big problem - JH. You show JH with 5 wonder points now, increasing to 7 on T142 (completion of SoL). But it then jumps to 9 the following turn? What will produce these additional points?

This turns out to be crucial, as with only 7 wonder points per turn JH never has enough GPP to actually spawn a great person. So we end up with only 8 before T195. Getting some more GPP into JH is critical to get that ninth GP before T195. If JH goes to 9 wonder points from 7, then this must happen no later than T164 or the ninth GP is later than T195. Not getting the extra GPP by about T148 means we get the JH GP in the early 190's, with another GP a turn or two later -- possibly too late to do much good.
Not quite as crucial... This is a result of trying different scenario's, also note that I didnt plan for any other specialist(s) in JH but the SoL one...
Adding a wonder in JH buy turn 170 and 12 turns (160-172) of one extra specialist fixes this :)

CiB - Specialists should be 6 now, 7 as of T142 (SoL), 8 as of T151 (7th preserve), T161 (8th preserve). We can obviously speed up the last two preserves by sending more workers, either the two chopping forests outside the FC or some from JH as the cottaging is mostly done.
Nope... CiB's problem -for the moment- is that it doesnt have any more slots to house specialists.. the SoL specialist will be a citizen as will be any more Preserves untill we can get the factory up. Here is another point of playing with the Spreadsheet after compiling it to "truth". It should read 6 untill line 150 where the comment says "CiB Factory" and then be 8 untill "CiB Lab" where it is 9.

FH - Specialists should not fall to zero due to SoL; 1 will remain. Either way, the city will not produce another GP before T195, even if we keep running 4 or 5 specialists. But the city could run more than that. With 6 specialsts we get another GP right at T195 for 10 total. I think this is worth doing as a backup policy, in case we get too many GP of one type.
Well... Like I posted before FH is basicaly inconsequential, unless we run 6 specialists ASAP and even then it doesnt change to much...
Basicaly getting the last GP out of FH/Babylon instead of CiB, and on turn 192.
For this to happen we need to be running 4 specialists from next turn in FH and 6 from turn 154, with a 7 turn Odeon that should be possible.
Running 5 specialists + 1 SoL gives it +2 food, working 3 lakes = +5 food for 2 more specialists.... So we have some room to play with but not much...
Overall, very nice work, Kale. :goodjob: We just need to check JH, and see what we can do to make certain we get a bit more GPP there.
Checked above...
Its not the content though that I am that worried about, but any technical/logical problems in the formula's will cause havoc with the spreadsheet even if the # of specialists work out...

Given the concerns about traderoutes... What are HC and Joao adding in our traderoutes??
Joao:
Commerce city / City
4 Sleeps (Lagos)
7 IT (Lisbon)
3 Sippar (Guimares)
3 Sippar (Evora)

All these traderoutes would probably go down by 1 commerce each shifting other traderoutes elsewhere. Where we would lose 1 commerce again untill all the traderoutes are 2 commerce.
Sleeps loses 1 commerce @ 125% = 1.25% + 1 beaker in a city that doesnt have any multiplyers
IT now this is the most painfull. Say 5 commerce at 100% = 10 beakers. The total of 5 accounted for here no additional commerce needed.
Sippar 2 commerce, no multiplyers = 2 beakers.

Joao is adding a total of 2.25 + 10 + 2 = 15 beakers!
Just having 2 cities with 6 commerce traderoutes will cover that loss.

HC
4 Sleeps (Tiwanaku) => 2 * 125% = 2.5 beakers
11 SdL (Cuzco) => 9 * 200% = 18 beakers
6 IT Olianty => 4 * 200% = 8
3 Dur K. => 1 Beaker
3 Dur K. => 1 Beaker
Total 2.5 + 18 + 8 + 1 + 1 = 28 beakers

Joao and HC together give us ~43 beakers, but this is actually less if you take into account that our productive cities will get the better traderoutes that are left.

Now as far as gold building goes... Thats nice... But we can also be beaker building at some point adding (perhaps) an additional turn of savings.

Sleepless

May 22, 2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by haphazard1
CiB - Specialists should be 6 now, 7 as of T142 (SoL), 8 as of T151 (7th preserve), T161 (8th preserve). We can obviously speed up the last two preserves by sending more workers, either the two chopping forests outside the FC or some from JH as the cottaging is mostly done.

Nope... CiB's problem -for the moment- is that it doesnt have any more slots to house specialists.. the SoL specialist will be a citizen as will be any more Preserves untill we can get the factory up. Here is another point of playing with the Spreadsheet after compiling it to "truth". It should read 6 untill line 150 where the comment says "CiB Factory" and then be 8 untill "CiB Lab" where it is 9.

This is why I would go for the Industrial Park asap here as it opens 2 engineer slots which should give us couple of engineer gp's + the free 1 from fusion.

The main problem I can see with attacking Joao right now is our cities are going to have to produce military instead of infra. What is the point of building the 3 gorges if we have no factories to be powered? I'll have to recheck the build time but I expect it will ned a good few hammers even after the GE is used. JH has lost/will lose most of its hammers now with even more going so how long will that take to build there?

Perhaps we might need an overseas invasion for aluminium so I would prefer to build our own tanks before attacking anyone else. Possibly send some troops ready to take Cuzco. We do need a blimp over there before to see what we can expect to face. The more I look at it the better it seems. Send our paras/cannon to Cuzco and use tanks to crush Joao. Once we have our factories up we will be able to build units a lot quicker rather than building them now.

So my planned tech path would be.

Indus or steel. If we use the GE on IW in JH steel first if not Indus first then.

Ind - Steel - RR - Comb - Plast - Rocket (if we can't trade) - Sat - Composites - Fission - Laser (if we go with 1 engine I would put genetics here/possibly still best here anyway) - Fibre Optics - Fusion - Genetics (we should have taken this with Lib :() - Ecology.

edit: we can also go computers instead of laser. I don't think it will matter beaker wise but will enable MA with alum against Mob Arty. Both ways seem reasonable.

Shame about Radio but we do need the tech for Sat anyway so not a total loss. :)

As we already have the thrusters open for building once apollo is done getting composites early will enable us to build the casings/thrusters in some of our lesser cities.

Where to build Apollo? If we have Aluminium I would go for SdL. If not our heaviest hammer city at the time except Sleeps which should stay on mil. I suggest building mg's/inf for defence of Joao's cities if we attack then tanks once we have oil.

KaleLambiek

May 22, 2009, 11:30 AM

If MoM was that important, we should have built it.
I think it is, I have been nagging about MoM since a long long time... Wanting to build it, but... If we had it we might already be considering starting the GA's right now instead of thinking about taking Cuzco.

but a 1000 hammer build for the internet, and we'll get all those techs backfilled!
Internet? Thats what we have the forum on, what else is it usefull for? What techs are we going to get that will help us get to space?
I agree with Sleepless on this, useless.

Space Elevator... I dont know... will depend on exact timing... but unless we beeline it from pretty much right after rocketery... it wont matter to much.

Nope... CiB's problem -for the moment- is that it doesnt have any more slots to house specialists.. the SoL specialist will be a citizen as will be any more Preserves untill we can get the factory up. Here is another point of playing with the Spreadsheet after compiling it to "truth". It should read 6 untill line 150 where the comment says "CiB Factory" and then be 8 untill "CiB Lab" where it is 9.

This is why I would go for the Industrial Park asap here as it opens 2 engineer slots which should give us couple of engineer gp's + the free 1 from fusion.
A factory is required for an Industrial park, CIB can probably use it, but will not change much for the odds or for the # of GP we will get. We are pulling forward the GPs... which may be important. Also a factory already allows for 2 GE slots...
One thing I havent considered yet, do we get the GPs in time to trigger the next GA?

Now to get Hap's old post replied to...
Hmmm. So the beaker bonus is less than 2 turns at our 100% research rate.
Actually I think we are going to be looking like breaking the 2000 beaker barrier later in the game with all those Cottages becoming Towns. So 1 turn of research.
In reality though most each and every pop will be working a tile with atleast 1 commerce.
JH alone 18 * 1 * 360% * 9 = 580 beakers.
170 pop of which 150 work a commerce tile +60% (+10% for FR I forgot) 240 * 9 = 2160 + 580 = 2740 = 1+ turn of research

Same goes for the hammers, this is a very carefull estimate... also the 50% is NOT having any power anywhere or IW in Sleeps/SdL will drive that UP considerably!

As for hammers, we dont lose quite as many... because we will (re-)use the hammers already invested in the troopers (see below on my new revised plan).
Still
6 cannons 402 hammers
4 more Galleons 212 (instead of 3 Transports for 252) hammers
A total of 614 hammers

Also consider the added 'hammer value' of the pillage money of 100+ gold per city that we can use to build more infra or even build Research if we see fit to do so...
We wasted the Liberalism tech, and should have taken Fission or Genetics.
Not quite wasted, but maybe getting Genetics might have been more usefull.... Then again... Its a "few" beakers ;)

It is greatly appreciated, even if I seem to be disagreeing a lot of the time.
Disagreement is the point of the S in SGOTM right? Otherwize we would be playing GOTM :D

If we need the gold...but do we? We have cash on hand for about 10 turns, which gets us to T150. The merchant just starting towards Cuzco should give us another 10 turns worth or so, for T160. NE non-build cash is worth another 3 turns or so for T163. Hammi's last four cities should give another 3 turns or so for T166.

Dont forget, you are counting now with -150 gpt. Inflation and Hammies last cities and Cuzco, possibly Joao's cities are going to drive that up!
I would guestimate we (including the GM) will have ~15-20 turns MAX money. Beyond that we will have to be building gold, baring us picking up chunks of money from the AI.
--------------
-- REMEMBER -- Joao's GM! Keep an eye on him getting a chunk of gold and trading our maps to him? If he gets that gold to be able to trade to us :)
--------------

Now in response to you guys valid and valuable inputs... Though I have (most specificaly) replied to HapHazard, I have read and taken into account everyone I think...
I have gone and done some (re-)thinking so... My new revised planning for the (near) future
No plan can be made without a priority list... and one thing is for sure -I think- we cannot make war 3 ways and get Infra happening in time, so lets set priorities for going to space...
The priorities as I see them:
0) Research
Stay at 100% research to the end of the game, hopefully putting in the last beaker on turn 190?? (over 195 our previous target)

1) Slider
Stay at 100% research to the end of the game, hopefully putting in the last beaker on turn 190?? (over 195 our previous target)

2) Kill Hammy ASAP
We need him dead! Soon! For this purpose I would like to have ~5 or so more paratroopers just to make sure...
Where/When do we produce these here Troopers?
3 from Sleeps in 6 turns, 2 more needed? Also usefull for 3.

3) MoM
Secure MoM for our golden ages.
Needs:
6 cannons, to remove (most of) the culture in 2 turns and sacrifice a few against the defenders
>> 9 bombards to remove the culture I think, so 5 would do as well... but 6 to fill 2 boatloads
>> Perhaps promote one or two with Accuracy?? So we have some more available "sacrificial" Cannons if needed.
8 Troopers to kill the defenders of Cuzco
2 Galleons for the Cannons (We already have, sail the Atlantis galleon around Portugal to get to Sippar/SdL)
2 Transports for the Troopers one from Sippar one from SdL

Perhaps 12 troopers and 3 Transports? Then add one Transport from TR? HC is a wonder whore and doesnt build quite as many units, perhaps 8 troopers is enough... 12 will DEFINATLY be enough IMHO.
Or perhaps just 4 more galleons instead of 3 transports? We need to double check, but I think 4 galleons cost less hammers than 3 transports?
Perhaps only build 3 galleons if 'only' 9 troopers are needed? if its enough, its enough and saves a few hammers/gold/beakers.
Our "spying" GM can tell us a bit more of how many defenders we may expect AND a if we want some spies ( see 5 ) that may help too.
Which ever way, I dont think we will build enough ships to warent a DryDocks? (in SdL) Unless we want to build them all in SdL and cannons elsewhere.

4) Get production producing
This will be helped by the MoM enhanced GA's, Meaning:
Levee in:
FH
Dur K.
TR? ~30 turn payoff, but at a time when we need hammers so worth while IMHO.
BT? ~30 turn payoff

Factory in (atleast):
FH
SdL
Sleeps
CiB
IT
Dur K.
Babylon

Coal plant in
what ever city will build Gorge (JH/BT/TR?)?
IT

Build IW somewhere (SdL/Sleeps/Dur K./Babylon?)

Build some health buildings or research genetics to compensate for health lost to Factories.
Possibly (even) going out of Enviromentalism at some point? FM/SP?

5) Rocketery
Steal or trade for... Can we get HC to friendly fast enough? Possibly bribe some AI to war with HC, then DoW ourselves... will that work?
Steal it using a spy, chancy... but could work... We would have to get a spy over there and get ALL Spy points towards HC NOW! Possibly build a +spy point building in JH to make sure?
At 1150 needed and 350 having we need 700-800 Spy Points at currenly 30 per turn... gonna take a long while unless we atleast build a Jail in JH for +9 points. Perhaps even a Security bureau?? Now its going to get a little cheaper with more EPs beeing generated as well as the spies beeing stationary for 25% discount.... But still...
900 - ish points needed leaving 600 needed = barely scratching it in 20 turns at 30 EPs per turn

6) Get Pillage money, to support 0 and 1
Go crazy on WK and capture cities for gold Using whatever troopers we have left after HC
WK is still running around with LBs I think, possibly some Knights soon-ish? Otherwize target Shaka or Stalin? But both build more units than WK I think?
We are not getting any traderoutes from WK at the moment anyways... getting some vassals/colonies for +happy and new traderoutes would be nice.

7) Kill Joao
Just for fun, if we feel like it. Probably using tanks? Building tanks where-ever, when-ever we have hammers left over
Also an extension of 4, get money. In combination with a few bombers a few tanks can do a lot of damage :)

8) Comply with victory conditions/win
Launch into space building parts in the Gorge powered/factory cities

With above priorities, taking out Joao IS a luxury... which we can take (my preference) or leave... Depending on what comes across our path later on.
Right now we have to take in Priorities #0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 then 5 and maybe worry about 6 and 7.
This means that we need them troopers, get production up ... Also means our troopers will end up someplace in the west anyway, where they will be transported to HC.
With the troopers not moving south we dont need no rails to transport them to Joao, which means we can delay RR. However the 6 cannons (possibly some Accuracy promoted?) we need/want as well as getting the production up (IW) prescribe we need Steel.
Thus our research parth is Steel first, then it dont matter... we need to beeline Plastics for the Gorge, that is part of priority #4. In what ever way we research that doesnt matter. So I am good with Steel > Indu > RR > Combustion > Plastics
In particular because we have like 2 mines or so actually beeing worked, thus RR for #4 is pretty much null and void.

Questions,
Considering our current happyness, do we "need" R&R and Eifel?? Or are they a luxury?
Perhaps sinking hammers into both just in case... And offcourse Eifel we can use for gold building, though perhaps a few tanks give a better return than 1.25:2.25 or with Factory/Power 2:3
Might depend on the WW trouble we run into? In particular JH might be able to use the Happy... But Gold/Gems traded or forced from a Vassal works too, not quite as well (Hit Singles = 3 happy with Odeon/Tower), but works.

Spaceship order
Rocketery needs to be up after Plastics I think? If we cannot steal/trade it.
Then in what order do we want/need to build the Parts? Engine has HIGH priority due to its cost right?

haphazard1

May 22, 2009, 12:24 PM

Ah, posting! Sorry, guys, but I have been having trouble posting. Screen opens, looks fine, but can not add text. I have switched to the really basic editor which (obviously!) works, but I will try to get the more advanced one back.

Lots of good comments, I will try to respond later in more detail. But a couple quick things, so we can at least agree on enough for Mastiff to prepare his plan:

1) I like Kale's latest on tech path. Steel first to start building cannon and IW, then Industrialism to reveal aluminum (I had a whole post on this, will try to recreate it later), then RR->Combustion->Plastics.

2) If we use galleons and not transports, we will need a frigate or two to guard our ships. Transports are tough enough on their own, but losing a loaded galleon would be horrible.

3) Do we have labs in all the cities where we intend to produce SS parts? Sleeps at least does not, I think.

4) Where to build IW? Does this city build a coal plant first, or will building a factory take until we have power from Three Gorges anyway? Where do we build Three Gorges?

5) Why not a quick theater in CiB to get those GPP started for the additional specialists? It is producing mixed GPP anyway for the moment.

More later. Hopefully after I figure out how to fix this editing thing.

KaleLambiek

May 22, 2009, 12:34 PM

2) Why need frigates?? HC isnt gonna be able to respond before the units land.
3) No Sleeps doesnt have a Obs even..
4) All depends...
5) Cause it just delays the Factory without adding real GPs to the table...

haphazard1

May 22, 2009, 12:36 PM

Some thoughts on building the space ship, the importance of aluminum, and hammer output.

There are 15 SS parts required (16 if we build two engines), plus Apollo:

Item________________Raw Cost__Resource___Tech___________Needed

Apollo Program________1067_H___Aluminum___Rocketry_______ __1

SS_Casing_____________800_H___Aluminum___Composite s_______5
SS_Cockpit____________667_H___Aluminum___Fiber_Opt ics______1
SS_Docking_Bay_______1334_H___Aluminum___Satellite s________1
SS_Engine____________1067_H___None______ Fusion___________1-2
SS_Life_Support________667_H___Copper_____Ecology_ _________1
SS_Stasis_Chamber_____800_H___None_______Genetics_ ________1
SS_Thruster___________800_H___Aluminum___ Superconductors__1-5

If we assume all cities building parts have forge, factory, power, lab for +150% H, we get:

With a bonus resource, that means +250% or base hammers = 2/7 of stated cost.
Without bonus resource, that means +150% or base hammers = 2/5 of stated cost.

With Aluminum we then have (H is raw cost, BH is base hammers, IWBH is base hammers in IronWorks city):

Apollo Program________1067_H____305_BH___238_IWBH

SS_Casing_____________800_H____229_BH___178_IWBH
SS_Cockpit____________667_H____191_BH___149_IWBH
SS_Docking_Bay_______1334_H____382_BH___297_IWBH
SS_Engine____________1067_H____427_BH___305_IWBH
SS_Life_Support________667_H____191_BH___149_IWBH
SS_Stasis_Chamber_____800_H____320_BH___229_IWBH
SS_Thruster___________800_H____229_BH___178_IWBH

Building all parts, 1 engine: 4106 BH
Building all parts, 2 engines: 4533 BH

Without aluminum we have (H is raw cost, BH is base hammers, IWBH is base hammers in IronWorks city):

Apollo Program________1067_H____427_BH___305_IWBH

SS_Casing_____________800_H____320_BH___229_IWBH
SS_Cockpit____________667_H____267_BH___191_IWBH
SS_Docking_Bay_______1334_H____534_BH___382_IWBH
SS_Engine____________1067_H____427_BH___305_IWBH
SS_Life_Support________667_H____191_BH___149_IWBH
SS_Stasis_Chamber_____800_H____320_BH___229_IWBH
SS_Thruster___________800_H____320_BH___229_IWBH

Building all parts, 1 engine: 5366 BH (1260 BH more than with aluminum)
Building all parts, 2 engines: 5793 BH

So overall aluminum saves us 1260 base hammers. However, most (almost 75%) of this extra cost is in the casings and thrusters -- relatively cheaper parts which we can spread around our lower hammer cities and build over time. Especially the thrusters, since they are available to build as soon as Apollo completes. So the true cost of not having aluminum is the increased cost of Apollo (since it is a bottleneck for the whole SS project) and the docking bay, which becomes the single most expensive part (by over 100 BH). The docking bay can be built once we have Satellites tech, which will definitely not be the last SS tech, so if necessary this can be lived with. That leaves a longer Apollo build, delaying the whole project, which can be offset of getting Rocketry earlier and starting Apollo earlier.

So aluminum would be very nice to have, certainly, but is not actually required. Compensating will require more time, though, both for Apollo and for the low-hammer cities to build casings and thrusters, as well as more turns from a high-hammer city for the docking bay. Proper sequencing can eliminate most of the "penalty" of not having aluminum.

I added the IWBH column so we can think about the final 2-3 parts. This will presumably be the engine(s), the stasis chamber, and the life support. The life support is cheap enough that the other parts are more likely to finish last even if Ecology is teched last.

One scenario would be to finish the techs Fusion->Genetics->Ecology:

Fusion completes, cities #2 and #3 (most hammers other than IW city) begin engines
Genetics completes, IW city begins stasis chamber
Ecology completes, strongest available city (might be #4, or maybe #2 has finished engine) begins life support, possibly with some chops if it has forests

Obviously, this depends on just how quickly we are researching and the ratio of the base hammers of the IW city and the next strongest city. I will work on this in more detail over the weekend, along with timelines for completing factories and our remaining target wonders.

Sleepless

May 22, 2009, 02:06 PM

I agree we won't need frigates I did check that we can land outside Cuzco on the first turn. I think we just have to manually disembark our troops.

I did check the 3 Gorges needs 1150 ish base hammers. The GE will only give about 550. This means we still need 600 hammers to finish it. If we were going to build factories everywhere obviously it would be worth it. Will we though?

The only 2 real places it can be built is JH and Dur K. IW is 467 ish hammers so if we self build IW in one of these it is very unlikely to be building the 3 gorges as well. I still like my suggestion of IW in Babylon. I know it won't be out of revolt for 9 turns but to build it there we do need to use the GE. On the other hand if we are in a perpetual GA hammers will be a bit easier to find. :)

KaleLambiek

May 22, 2009, 02:11 PM

Please check your values, Engine shows as 1072 and Cockpit/Life support as 670...
Doubt that makes a world of difference but still.

Also counting back your total hammer value to base hammers can be bit tricky with roundings that happen... Be carefull!

KaleLambiek

May 22, 2009, 02:31 PM

Sleepless

May 22, 2009, 03:05 PM

GE gives 589 to be exact, thats 40 more hammers... Not inconsiderable.

The place where we stick IW will likely be the most targetted city of SS parts. It needs a Lab as well as factory/forge and Power. Why wouldnt IW fit together with Gorge?
We want IW in our HIGHEST hammer city...

Highest potential hammer city is JH. Do we want IW there? Or do we run bureacracy at the end for the hammer bonus?

In which case WHERE do you suggest we put IW?

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 22, 2009, 05:25 PM

It's tough keeping up with you guys! :)

KaleLambiek

May 23, 2009, 02:03 AM

I have made a sheet comparing the biggest cities to eachother in hammers.
I have not taken into account civics like State property (for + food on Workshops/Watermills) or CoL for +hammer on Workshops.

Just tried to make the best with the current stuff....

It would seem that we can get in Base GA hammers
55 SdL
66 Dur K.
69 JH
71 Babylon
76 Sleeps

Again, spreadsheet attached... Please check and suggest improvements.
Perhaps if we do run CoL/SP and workshop JH, I think that brings JH up to 100 base GA Hammers, while sleeps only goes up to 87 base GA hammers.
Workshopping and SoL/SP though is only at the WAY end not sure if/when that would help much.

Sleeps vs JH, 7 extra hammers + 150% Factory/Lab/etc + 100% IW = 25 extra hammers per turn, or 32 with Aluminium... That is quite considerable...

Sleeps is going to be quite busy with some military (or is it?)
Babylon to my taste needs way to much Infra to be able to build IW, though less than Dur K. which needs even the Forge. 55 of SdL is to big a difference IMHO.
So the choice is Sleeps for more hammers ASAP, or JH for more hammers on the last second.

haphazard1

May 23, 2009, 11:04 AM

I agree with Mastiff -- it is hard keeping up. :)

Not quite as crucial... This is a result of trying different scenario's, also note that I didnt plan for any other specialist(s) in JH but the SoL one...
Adding a wonder in JH buy turn 170 and 12 turns (160-172) of one extra specialist fixes this :)

Not sure we will have food to spare for the extra specialist? The main point is that we need to remember this, and make certain to get some more GPP somehow in JH in the not-too-distant future.

Checked above...
Its not the content though that I am that worried about, but any technical/logical problems in the formula's will cause havoc with the spreadsheet even if the # of specialists work out...

I checked them and the results, and I think the formulae are OK. That's no guarantee, of course.

Given the concerns about traderoutes... What are HC and Joao adding in our traderoutes??
Joao:
Commerce city / City
4 Sleeps (Lagos)
7 IT (Lisbon)
3 Sippar (Guimares)
3 Sippar (Evora)

This is one more Joao TR somewhere - F4 info screen shows him as 21 commerce with us.

All these traderoutes would probably go down by 1 commerce each shifting other traderoutes elsewhere. Where we would lose 1 commerce again untill all the traderoutes are 2 commerce.
Sleeps loses 1 commerce @ 125% = 1.25% + 1 beaker in a city that doesnt have any multiplyers
IT now this is the most painfull. Say 5 commerce at 100% = 10 beakers. The total of 5 accounted for here no additional commerce needed.
Sippar 2 commerce, no multiplyers = 2 beakers.

Joao is adding a total of 2.25 + 10 + 2 = 15 beakers!
Just having 2 cities with 6 commerce traderoutes will cover that loss.

One of the potential problems with attacking Joao is that he is our current source of "new" TRs as we add Hammi's cities. From the TRs and the F4 info screen, we have maxed out our TRs to the other continent (since they are more valuable). But there are more Portugese cities to get TRs with as Hammi's cities are conquered and come out of revolt. So our total TR commerce with Joao is going to continue to grow, making war more expensive.

Declaring on HC makes this problem worse, as we lose those TRs and they shift to Joao. And once Joao's are exhausted, to internal TRs.

War with WK is looking like an even bigger mistake. :( Maybe we can get peace at some point and resign OB?

HC
4 Sleeps (Tiwanaku) => 2 * 125% = 2.5 beakers
11 SdL (Cuzco) => 9 * 200% = 18 beakers
6 IT Olianty => 4 * 200% = 8
3 Dur K. => 1 Beaker
3 Dur K. => 1 Beaker
Total 2.5 + 18 + 8 + 1 + 1 = 28 beakers

Joao and HC together give us ~43 beakers, but this is actually less if you take into account that our productive cities will get the better traderoutes that are left.

See above. If we lose TR to both HC and Joao, we will be getting internal trade routes that are much less valuable. And our new Hammi cities will be all internal TRs. :( I think the real cost will be at least twice what you have calculated above once the new cities are taken into account.

If we are going to go after HC, why not leave Joao until later? Keep Joao's TRs while we fight HC. Most of our military is going to be busy overseas anyway. We can run over Joao's cities for pillage cash later.

Now as far as gold building goes... Thats nice... But we can also be beaker building at some point adding (perhaps) an additional turn of savings.

I just do not see enough gold for us to be building beakers. And not enough time, either -- we have many needs for our available hammers. Many, many needs.

This is why I would go for the Industrial Park asap here as it opens 2 engineer slots which should give us couple of engineer gp's + the free 1 from fusion.

Industrial Park is expensive - even with factory and power about 6 turns. But you are correct that more engineers here would help a lot. At least there are no worries about health in CiB. :)

The main problem I can see with attacking Joao right now is our cities are going to have to produce military instead of infra. What is the point of building the 3 gorges if we have no factories to be powered? I'll have to recheck the build time but I expect it will ned a good few hammers even after the GE is used. JH has lost/will lose most of its hammers now with even more going so how long will that take to build there?

Three Gorges requires a river, though. Given current hammers, TR might actually be the best place: it has hammers enough to build a factory and coal plant before we reach Plastics, and with a bit more pop growth to work a couple more windmilled hills it will have 28-30 base hammers for 56-60 hpt on Three Gorges.

Other options are Dur-Kur, but it needs more infra and growth first. Or JH, but it is not strong on hammers at the moment. And if we can get more happiness, we should convert more of the forests into cottages for beakers, losing even more hammers (although gaining some chops).

Perhaps we might need an overseas invasion for aluminium so I would prefer to build our own tanks before attacking anyone else. Possibly send some troops ready to take Cuzco. We do need a blimp over there before to see what we can expect to face. The more I look at it the better it seems. Send our paras/cannon to Cuzco and use tanks to crush Joao. Once we have our factories up we will be able to build units a lot quicker rather than building them now.

I agree on leaving Joao until later. If we are going to take Cuzco, it is going to take just about all the units we can muster.

So my planned tech path would be.

Indus or steel. If we use the GE on IW in JH steel first if not Indus first then.

I would not use the GE on IW - we need it for Three Gorges. IW is a nice to have in one strong city. Three Gorges gives us power everywhere except IT.

And I like Steel first so we can start producing cannon.

Ind - Steel - RR - Comb - Plast - Rocket (if we can't trade) - Sat - Composites - Fission - Laser (if we go with 1 engine I would put genetics here/possibly still best here anyway) - Fibre Optics - Fusion - Genetics (we should have taken this with Lib :() - Ecology.

edit: we can also go computers instead of laser. I don't think it will matter beaker wise but will enable MA with alum against Mob Arty. Both ways seem reasonable.

Computers is a bit cheaper than Laser. And we should consider Genetics much earlier in the sequence, both for the bonus health and because we can start the Statis Chamber much earlier and remove it as a bottleneck.

Does anyone know the difference in turns for the flight if we have a second engine? Just how much do we save?

Shame about Radio but we do need the tech for Sat anyway so not a total loss. :)

As we already have the thrusters open for building once apollo is done getting composites early will enable us to build the casings/thrusters in some of our lesser cities.

Getting Apollo done early is definitely good, so we can have lesser cities on the "small" parts. Even a city like CiB or IT can crank out a casing or thruster in 10-15 turns (depending on golden age, etc.).

Where to build Apollo? If we have Aluminium I would go for SdL. If not our heaviest hammer city at the time except Sleeps which should stay on mil. I suggest building mg's/inf for defence of Joao's cities if we attack then tanks once we have oil.

Military builds are a real tricky question. Sleeps is our best hammer city overall, both now and in potential for the future. But putting IW there means much less military overall. How much is that extra military worth?

I think it is, I have been nagging about MoM since a long long time... Wanting to build it, but... If we had it we might already be considering starting the GA's right now instead of thinking about taking Cuzco.

We had other priorities at the time -- maybe they were smart, maybe they were not. But it is too early for golden ages right now, even if we had MoM this turn.

Target turn for last SS tech: T195
Assume maybe 5 turns after that to build final part(s): T200
Three golden ages with MoM for 27 turns => golden age start about T173. 33 turns from now.

We are thinking that we may beat the T195 target, but if so it will probably only be by a small number of turns. Even if we manage it by T185, that gives us 23 turns to capture the MoM.

Research Steel - 2 turns
Build 6 cannon in Sleeps - 7 turns (maybe 6 with some overflow at start)
Travel by ship and land next to Cuzco - 5 turns
Bombard - 1 turn
Bombarb, sac cannon, capture - 1 turn (maybe 2)

16 turns or so, assuming we can get the needed galleons (SdL?) and paras from somewhere.

Assume we finish the war with Hammi first, maybe 15 more turns, freeing up lots of promoted paras. This is also plenty of time to build the galleons and cannon. Add say 2 turns to shuffle all the paras onto the ships, then the travel, bombard, capture as above: 24 turns.

Looks like everything will work out very nicely. :)

The galleons may be the toughest part. West galleon will take the GM to Cuzco and be back in plenty of time; east galleon can make it around Cape Horn to SdL in about 12 turns so that works. SdL can finish an odeon (1 turn), the airport (1), factory (6), then galleons are about 3 every 4 turns. 12 turns total to have 5 galleons ready and waiting. :) It does tie up SdL for most of this period, though.

Internet? Thats what we have the forum on, what else is it usefull for? What techs are we going to get that will help us get to space?
I agree with Sleepless on this, useless.

Space Elevator... I dont know... will depend on exact timing... but unless we beeline it from pretty much right after rocketery... it wont matter to much.

Agree on both Internet and Space Elevator being useless. Internet might get us Music, MilTrad, a couple techs which do not help us. Elevator requires an expensive tech, and the timing is not likely to work out on building it anyway.

A factory is required for an Industrial park, CIB can probably use it, but will not change much for the odds or for the # of GP we will get. We are pulling forward the GPs... which may be important. Also a factory already allows for 2 GE slots...
One thing I havent considered yet, do we get the GPs in time to trigger the next GA?

The extra engineers (1 free from IP, then 2 more instead of spy, scientist) will add some useful base hammers to CiB, as well as shifting our GPP pool towards a GE. An extra 6 base hammers in a city with factory and power is not bad at all.

Disagreement is the point of the S in SGOTM right? Otherwize we would be playing GOTM :D

Exactly. :D

Dont forget, you are counting now with -150 gpt. Inflation and Hammies last cities and Cuzco, possibly Joao's cities are going to drive that up!
I would guestimate we (including the GM) will have ~15-20 turns MAX money. Beyond that we will have to be building gold, baring us picking up chunks of money from the AI.

Good point. FP in Dur-Kur or Babylon will help some later, but costs (and inflation) will continue rising. :(

REMEMBER -- Joao's GM! Keep an eye on him getting a chunk of gold and trading our maps to him? If he gets that gold to be able to trade to us :)

Yes, if we could grab even half the cash Joao gets from the GM it would be a big boost. :)

Now in response to you guys valid and valuable inputs... Though I have (most specificaly) replied to HapHazard, I have read and taken into account everyone I think...
I have gone and done some (re-)thinking so... My new revised planning for the (near) future
No plan can be made without a priority list... and one thing is for sure -I think- we cannot make war 3 ways and get Infra happening in time, so lets set priorities for going to space...
The priorities as I see them:
0) Research
Stay at 100% research to the end of the game, hopefully putting in the last beaker on turn 190?? (over 195 our previous target)

1) Slider
Stay at 100% research to the end of the game, hopefully putting in the last beaker on turn 190?? (over 195 our previous target)

Completely agree this has to remain the top priority...meaning we continue to need gold, plenty of gold. And boosting beakers continues to be important. Especially important in JH -- if we can get more happiness, we should convert more tiles to cottages.

2) Kill Hammy ASAP
We need him dead! Soon! For this purpose I would like to have ~5 or so more paratroopers just to make sure...
Where/When do we produce these here Troopers?
3 from Sleeps in 6 turns, 2 more needed? Also usefull for 3.

This is tough, as we need Sleeps to start cranking out cannon fairly soon. As per my above calcs, we have about 17 turns before our fleet launches for Cuzco. Sleeps needs maybe 7 of that to build 6 cannon. That gives us 10 turns free to build paras, or maybe a few paras and a factory? We do need to get that factory built.

This assumes that we do not want IW in Sleeps. If we do, then any paras after the first (while we tech Steel) means delay in IW and lost hammers. More on IW later.

3) MoM
Secure MoM for our golden ages.
Needs:
6 cannons, to remove (most of) the culture in 2 turns and sacrifice a few against the defenders
>> 9 bombards to remove the culture I think, so 5 would do as well... but 6 to fill 2 boatloads
>> Perhaps promote one or two with Accuracy?? So we have some more available "sacrificial" Cannons if needed.
8 Troopers to kill the defenders of Cuzco
2 Galleons for the Cannons (We already have, sail the Atlantis galleon around Portugal to get to Sippar/SdL)
2 Transports for the Troopers one from Sippar one from SdL

Perhaps 12 troopers and 3 Transports? Then add one Transport from TR? HC is a wonder whore and doesnt build quite as many units, perhaps 8 troopers is enough... 12 will DEFINATLY be enough IMHO.
Or perhaps just 4 more galleons instead of 3 transports? We need to double check, but I think 4 galleons cost less hammers than 3 transports?
Perhaps only build 3 galleons if 'only' 9 troopers are needed? if its enough, its enough and saves a few hammers/gold/beakers.
Our "spying" GM can tell us a bit more of how many defenders we may expect AND a if we want some spies ( see 5 ) that may help too.
Which ever way, I dont think we will build enough ships to warent a DryDocks? (in SdL) Unless we want to build them all in SdL and cannons elsewhere.

A few thoughts:

- Galleons. Transports need oil or uranium, which will be available too late.
- Sippar does not have the hammers to build anything useful, and needs infra anyway. SdL can produce the needed galleons pretty easily (see above).
- 5 galleons for 6 cannon and 9 paras sounds good. I think we will need all 9, even for a "less" militaristic AI like HC. Our GM will reveal more, but Cuzco is large and HC is running HR and probably has a bunch of units for MP.
- I don't understand the AI. Why hasn't HC settled the rest of Australia? Why isn't there a city on that island SE of Cuzco -- the pig would make it grow fast, close to capital for minimal maintenance, HC is financial to get tons of commerce from the coast tiles.... Why hasn't he settled more?

4) Get production producing
This will be helped by the MoM enhanced GA's, Meaning:
Levee in:
FH
Dur K.
TR? ~30 turn payoff, but at a time when we need hammers so worth while IMHO.
BT? ~30 turn payoff

Factory in (atleast):
FH
SdL
Sleeps
CiB
IT
Dur K.
Babylon

I would add LM, TR, BT, and GV. Oh, and I assume the FH there is really JH. :) With Three Gorges to provide power, a factory anywhere with even halfway decent hammers is worth it. All of LM, TR, BT, and GV have 16+ base hammers and can build a factory in under 10 turns. With power they will produce 32+ hammers per turn (more in a golden age) -- lots of gold if we need it, and plenty to finish minor infra until SS parts are available. All of these cities can handle building a casing or thruster, maybe even 2. And that clears the queues of our powerful cities for the big parts.

Coal plant in
what ever city will build Gorge (JH/BT/TR?)?
IT

I think TR may actually be the best bet. JH has too few hammers until the towns mature, Dur-Kur lacks infra. BT...could do it, but still needs some infra. TR does as well, though. Hmmm.

Build IW somewhere (SdL/Sleeps/Dur K./Babylon?)

Build some health buildings or research genetics to compensate for health lost to Factories.
Possibly (even) going out of Enviromentalism at some point? FM/SP?

IW is a tough decision, especially if we want lots of military from Sleeps.

I still do not see the advantages of changing out of Enviro - FM and SP just do not offer enough. Although some people seem to plan to mine all our windmills and lumbermill all our forests....

5) Rocketery
Steal or trade for... Can we get HC to friendly fast enough? Possibly bribe some AI to war with HC, then DoW ourselves... will that work?
Steal it using a spy, chancy... but could work... We would have to get a spy over there and get ALL Spy points towards HC NOW! Possibly build a +spy point building in JH to make sure?
At 1150 needed and 350 having we need 700-800 Spy Points at currenly 30 per turn... gonna take a long while unless we atleast build a Jail in JH for +9 points. Perhaps even a Security bureau?? Now its going to get a little cheaper with more EPs beeing generated as well as the spies beeing stationary for 25% discount.... But still...
900 - ish points needed leaving 600 needed = barely scratching it in 20 turns at 30 EPs per turn

We could try the spy, I guess. But getting one there in time to be stationary...would need to send it early enough so the galleon could return and pick up troops as part of the main fleet.

I do not think the war trick would work -- we would get a penalty for bringing in a war partner, assuming we could even get someone to declare without us declaring first.

6) Get Pillage money, to support 0 and 1
Go crazy on WK and capture cities for gold Using whatever troopers we have left after HC
WK is still running around with LBs I think, possibly some Knights soon-ish? Otherwize target Shaka or Stalin? But both build more units than WK I think?
We are not getting any traderoutes from WK at the moment anyways... getting some vassals/colonies for +happy and new traderoutes would be nice.

WK is a possibility, but I would not attack Shaka or Stalin. Lots of units, plus we are getting huge TR income from both.

7) Kill Joao
Just for fun, if we feel like it. Probably using tanks? Building tanks where-ever, when-ever we have hammers left over
Also an extension of 4, get money. In combination with a few bombers a few tanks can do a lot of damage :)

Maybe. Tanks are expensive, and we can just build gold instead. Not lose TRs, not have distractions from the space race. But it is an option, if we need it.

8) Comply with victory conditions/win
Launch into space building parts in the Gorge powered/factory cities

Which should be almost all our cities. Spread the parts around, build gold in cities which are not building SS parts.

With above priorities, taking out Joao IS a luxury... which we can take (my preference) or leave... Depending on what comes across our path later on.
Right now we have to take in Priorities #0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 then 5 and maybe worry about 6 and 7.
This means that we need them troopers, get production up ... Also means our troopers will end up someplace in the west anyway, where they will be transported to HC.
With the troopers not moving south we dont need no rails to transport them to Joao, which means we can delay RR. However the 6 cannons (possibly some Accuracy promoted?) we need/want as well as getting the production up (IW) prescribe we need Steel.
Thus our research parth is Steel first, then it dont matter... we need to beeline Plastics for the Gorge, that is part of priority #4. In what ever way we research that doesnt matter. So I am good with Steel > Indu > RR > Combustion > Plastics
In particular because we have like 2 mines or so actually beeing worked, thus RR for #4 is pretty much null and void.

:agree: And the tech path matches what I am thinking.

Questions,
Considering our current happyness, do we "need" R&R and Eifel?? Or are they a luxury?
Perhaps sinking hammers into both just in case... And offcourse Eifel we can use for gold building, though perhaps a few tanks give a better return than 1.25:2.25 or with Factory/Power 2:3
Might depend on the WW trouble we run into? In particular JH might be able to use the Happy... But Gold/Gems traded or forced from a Vassal works too, not quite as well (Hit Singles = 3 happy with Odeon/Tower), but works.

I think we need both R&R and Eiffel, especially if we plan to lumbermill all our preserves. The WW is another reason to not bother Joao and just build gold.

Where to fit these wonders, though? And maybe find a few turns to slip in some non-build on Eiffel.

Spaceship order
Rocketery needs to be up after Plastics I think? If we cannot steal/trade it.
Then in what order do we want/need to build the Parts? Engine has HIGH priority due to its cost right?

Rocketry needs to come pretty quickly after Plastics, yes. Although if there is a good chance of getting it from HC, we could delay a bit.

On order, I like grabbing Genetics earlier so we can remove the Statis Chamber as a roadblock. Allows us to focus our #1 (and maybe #2) city on the engine(s) with Ecology and its cheap part as the last.

I agree we won't need frigates I did check that we can land outside Cuzco on the first turn. I think we just have to manually disembark our troops.

I do not understand why the AI has not settled that island, and the rest of Australia. But the lack of culture there does make things easier for us.

I did check the 3 Gorges needs 1150 ish base hammers. The GE will only give about 550. This means we still need 600 hammers to finish it. If we were going to build factories everywhere obviously it would be worth it. Will we though?

I think we should build factories (almost) everywhere. Our lesser cities have enough base hammers to benefit significantly, and to handle small SS parts.

The only 2 real places it can be built is JH and Dur K. IW is 467 ish hammers so if we self build IW in one of these it is very unlikely to be building the 3 gorges as well. I still like my suggestion of IW in Babylon. I know it won't be out of revolt for 9 turns but to build it there we do need to use the GE. On the other hand if we are in a perpetual GA hammers will be a bit easier to find. :)

TR or BT are also good options for Three Gorges, if we start them on factory and coal plant ASAP.

Please check your values, Engine shows as 1072 and Cockpit/Life support as 670...
Doubt that makes a world of difference but still.

My figures were from the base cost, with a 2/3 modifier for quick. The real modifier the game uses is 0.67, so I am a few hammers off. I will update, but the overall is not affected.

GE gives 589 to be exact, thats 40 more hammers... Not inconsiderable.

The place where we stick IW will likely be the most targetted city of SS parts. It needs a Lab as well as factory/forge and Power. Why wouldnt IW fit together with Gorge?
We want IW in our HIGHEST hammer city...

There are two problems. The first is that our highest hammer city is Sleeps, which we may prefer to have building military rather than spending all its time on IW and TG.

The second problem is that whichever city or cities build IW and TG need to have strong hammers now. This mostly disqualifies JH while its cottages mature, Babylon since it has 9 turns of revolt and will need infra, and (maybe) Dur-Kur since it needs infra.

I think we will want to split up IW and TG, because we can build TG in a city which has decent hammers now but is not a candidate for IW. I like TG in either TR or BT.

Highest potential hammer city is JH. Do we want IW there? Or do we run bureacracy at the end for the hammer bonus?

In which case WHERE do you suggest we put IW?

I have made a sheet comparing the biggest cities to eachother in hammers.
I have not taken into account civics like State property (for + food on Workshops/Watermills) or CoL for +hammer on Workshops.

Just tried to make the best with the current stuff....

It would seem that we can get in Base GA hammers
55 SdL
66 Dur K.
69 JH
71 Babylon
76 Sleeps

Again, spreadsheet attached... Please check and suggest improvements.

My counts do not exactly match yours. Some of the difference depends on how aggressive we can be about lumbermilling preserves we may need for happiness, but some I can not see the reasons. My estimates are generally a bit lower. But the overall pattern is the same.

Perhaps if we do run CoL/SP and workshop JH, I think that brings JH up to 100 base GA Hammers, while sleeps only goes up to 87 base GA hammers.
Workshopping and SoL/SP though is only at the WAY end not sure if/when that would help much.

We need JH's beakers right up until maybe 5-6 turns from launch. I suppose we could manage a last-minute conversion to workshops (with or without SP, starving if needed). If IW is not in JH, this might allow us to build both engines. Need to check the difference in SS flight time for 2 engines vs 1 engine.

Sleeps vs JH, 7 extra hammers + 150% Factory/Lab/etc + 100% IW = 25 extra hammers per turn, or 32 with Aluminium... That is quite considerable...

Sleeps is going to be quite busy with some military (or is it?)
Babylon to my taste needs way to much Infra to be able to build IW, though less than Dur K. which needs even the Forge. 55 of SdL is to big a difference IMHO.
So the choice is Sleeps for more hammers ASAP, or JH for more hammers on the last second.

If we feel we can live without the extra military, Sleeps would be my choice. IW in Sleeps and mass-workshop at the last second in JH, each building one engine while we research Ecology and city #3 (Dur-Kur? Babylon?) rushes the cheap Life Support once it finishes.

If we are going to put IW in Sleeps, though, it will need to spend time on a factory, coal plant (to build IW faster, probably can't wait for TG), and obs/lab to get maximum SS part bonus. That means a lot less military, although I suppose we can delay IW until TG is done (skipping the coal plant). Means IW finishes later, less total hammers gained. But we really only need it for the SS parts.

So, Mastiff, when will see a turnset plan? :lol:

Seriously, I think we have pretty much settled the immediate tech path, plus what builds we need for the invasion force for Cuzco. Builds as needed to keep happiness under control, factories pretty much everywhere, and continue the war against Hammi with intent to finish him in 12-15 turns (about 3 turns per city, with a little extra for healing).

I will probably find about 5 crossposts as soon as I hit 'Submit'. :lol:

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 23, 2009, 01:15 PM

So, Mastiff, when will see a turnset plan? :lol:

Be glad it's a long week-end... and I'm a Scribe. :p

Sleepless

May 23, 2009, 01:33 PM

Just a quick couple of things.

At normal speed the difference between 1 and 2 engines arrival time is only 2 turns. So if we can't manage the 2 engines in time it will be best to go with 1.

Tech path perhaps go steel - plastic. After plastic Rocketry then Genetics while were building the Apollo Programme.

I still think IW should go in Babylon. It has the food to feed its mines. Lots of production and most of its tiles are already improved. Once we have the factory up it won't take long to get the rest of its infra up. If we forego a military campaign Sleeps could be an IW city but would have to cut down on its mil builds. Certainly JH should be changed right at the end to workshops and build an engine when teching doesn't matter any more. Remembering to change back to Bureacracy as well.

KaleLambiek

May 23, 2009, 03:37 PM

I am going to have to read in more detail, but this quickly...
And once Joao's are exhausted, to internal TRs.
The point though is we are not exhausting Joao's traderoutes, because our own to IT and/or Athens are more valuable. Joaoa is on the same continent thus lacking the +100% intercontinent traderoute bonus... Making it a lot less valuable than i.e. WK.

DoW-ing WK was (sorry to say) a big :crazyeye: :nono::smoke::gripe::spank:

But we already did that bit... so lets not :deadhorse: and look forward to :newyear:
Erm... the future anyway :)

I just do not see enough gold for us to be building beakers. And not enough time, either -- we have many needs for our available hammers. Many, many needs.
Needs or wants? A lot of the 'needs' for Hammies cities like Factory/Lib/Uni/Obs/Lab/granary/Courthouse for them... are nice... but we carefully have to consider their worth hammers:gold or Hammers:beakers otherwize needed.

Priority #0 and #1, Research and the Slider! Keep our happy core happily teching... Any other infra is extra. Even dropping the slider by 10% for 1 turn is a lot of beakers to lose out on with very little time to earn it back!

But it is too early for golden ages right now, even if we had MoM this turn.

No it is not or not really. I think
1) We would have had 3 more turns of Taj GA
2) We will be getting to "turn 195" earlier than turn 195. I am thinking 185 now... Considering the pace at which we are gaining towards the 1200 mark that we need for turn 195, even without GA now... The GA is going to bump us to 2000 easy! Thats without Beaker building!

Turn 185 would require an average of 1537 beakers from now on... We are not that far away from that right now and will go considerably OVER it with the GA! 185 even 180 is looking more and more likely... Possibly even earlier! I may even consider adding a worker 2,3 from cities with happyness problems to stop their growth to help with cottage building to speed up that process in particular in Babylon... AI are very well known for their building not enough workers. Capturing some workers we will, but not enough I think. Before focussing on production we still need beakers = Cottages and the more we get the better it is.

I am targetting ~turn 160 at the latest to start the GA's (right now) but I am also thinking with the 180-ish target in my mind that may already be "to late"! Capturing Cuzco before turn 160 is IMPERATIVE and IMHO possible.. though a tight fit... I will try to make more detailed numbers on that tomorrow... but Cuzco turn 159 or earlier is the goal!

I would add LM, TR, BT, and GV. Oh, and I assume the FH there is really JH.
Yes FH = JH in that list. And yes mostly any city... notice the ATLEAST bit... Atleast in these cities ASAP.

I think TR may actually be the best bet. JH has too few hammers until the towns mature, Dur-Kur lacks infra.
The GE also gives hammers to City pop... bigger city = more hammers. We need to look a bit more closely at timing AND Hammers AND other things needed (troopers/other wonders/etc) before deciding this.
I still do not see the advantages of changing out of Enviro - FM and SP just do not offer enough. Although some people seem to plan to mine all our windmills and lumbermill all our forests....
Yes the lost commerce for the windmills will hurt, but at some point we are going from Beakers/commerce limitted to Hammer limitted. At that point transfering to something that produces more of what we require is only good!

And maybe find a few turns to slip in some non-build on Eiffel.
Getting more gold for beaker building or adding infra -if/when/where that makes sence-

As for Cannons from Sleeps... One or two likely... the rest can come from Cities without barracks if needed. We need some additional Troopers as well to
1) Replace dying troopers
2) Kill Hammy ASAP

KaleLambiek

May 23, 2009, 03:54 PM

I just noticed an error in my Dur K. hammer calculation!! I didnt account for a Levee there... The levee is good for 15! base hammers.
Though I also made a grasland produce 5 hammers? There is actually a host of problems in Dur K... But the missing 15 hammers for a Levee there make a LOT of difference...

KaleLambiek

May 24, 2009, 06:06 AM

If we all agree on the priority list then lets get the requirements filled in...
In roughly 15 turns we want to set sail to Cuzco.. Our Atlantis Galleon can sail around Portugal in 13 turns... so lets aim for that...

First research, Steel is showing as a 3 turns research 2804 beakers.
We currently make 1125 beakers * 120% = 1350 + 1350 = 2700 Beakers
We have some overflow and an Airport (SdL), Uni (GV) and Lib (FH) finishing.
Airport +7 commerce => +100% = 14 beakers
Uni 6 beakers
Lib 6 beakers + 15 beakers (getting 2 scientists) = 21 beakers.

14 + 6 + 21 = 41 * 120 % = 61.5 beakers.
With some overflow (no idea to tell how much) and some other growths here or there... I will assume Steel is actually a 2 turn project...

Now on stealing Rocketery, see: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/espionage_cost.php for details
Mission Cost = iCost + ((100 + iBuyTechCostFactor) * TechBaseCost) / 100

0 + ((100 + 25) * 5000) / 100 = 6250 EPs to steal rocketery
That is assuming I understand the article right... Or dont I? Even with 50% discount for stationary spy (s) thats 3000 EPs :( We are just going to have to bite the bullit and self research Rocketery, instead of waiting for HC to be a vassal and give us Rocketery... that is just going to take to long :(

Now production queue's
Sleeps
Trooper #10 (2) > Cannon #1 (1) > Factory (5) > Cannon #2 (1) > Cannon #3 (1) > Cannon #4 (1) > Cannon #5 (1)
3 Accuracy cannons are "enough" to take down the culture completely in 2 turns
5 Accuracy cannons should be enough to take down the culture completely in 1 turn.
12 turn buildqueue, leaving some room for a 1 turn Odeon if needed.

The idea would be:
1) Move the troopers to Babylon (including the one in Opis)
2) Promote and heal 1 trooper to 16 strength
The two 9 strength troopers need (at 25% or 6 strength per turn) 1 turn to get to 16 strength. This gives us 6 "worthy" attackers (at 16 and more), fly in the fresh trooper from Sleeps for city defence drop to Borsippa possibly. If there are 6 or less defenders take the Worthy ones, otherwize determain if we can/need to bring more but less worthy attackers to take it.
3) Bombard (probably) Borsippa and take it, hopefully having 6 or less defenders.
Fly the Cannon into Babylon from Sleeps
4) MOve the cannon towards Nippur (if Borsippa isnt ours yet), otherwize move to Akkad.
If Borsippa has been taken move troopers to attack Nippur, otherwize take Borsippa.

But hopefully each city we can take in 1 turn... as we continue on...

we then need to examine other build queue to match this... I.e. Get 3 or 4 galleons out of SdL
Airport (1) > Factory (6) > Galleon (2) > Galleon (2) > Galleon (2)
That is advertised in the city screen now... for 13 turns but I am sure the overflow from project to project will save a turn maybe two (didnt do detailed research) allowing for a one turn Odeon if needed.

That takes care of our attack force I think... Now "all" we have to worry about is the Queues in JH/TR/Dur K. see where we can make the Gorge, Eifel, R&R and Apollo.
As well as other Infra needed in other cities...

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 24, 2009, 10:17 AM

Now on stealing Rocketery, see: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/espionage_cost.php for details
Mission Cost = iCost + ((100 + iBuyTechCostFactor) * TechBaseCost) / 100

0 + ((100 + 25) * 5000) / 100 = 6250 EPs to steal rocketery
That is assuming I understand the article right... Or dont I? Even with 50% discount for stationary spy (s) thats 3000 EPs :( We are just going to have to bite the bullit and self research Rocketery, instead of waiting for HC to be a vassal and give us Rocketery... that is just going to take to long :(

One item I might mention. My thought always was if this would would, we'd have to side track to Communism and get the Great Spy. He runs a mission to an AI and adds something like 3000 EP... So the REAL chance is spending the :science: on Commu, (which is less that rocketry? If not, this is moot.) and then failing the mission. But, we shave off however many turns Rocketry > Commu... Risk vs. Reward. :p

That takes care of our attack force I think... Now "all" we have to worry about is the Queues in JH/TR/Dur K. see where we can make the Gorge, Eifel, R&R and Apollo.
As well as other Infra needed in other cities...

I'm working on it! :) I'm going to try and lay out a turnset... including alternating opinions, sometime tonight. I'll be a "beta" version, as I haven't even looked at the workers closely... plus, I'll have some POW's ready for work!

Sleepless

May 24, 2009, 11:23 AM

No point imho in trying to steal rocketry from HC. If we go for Communism it will be better to keep the GSpy for a GAge.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 24, 2009, 12:06 PM

No point imho in trying to steal rocketry from HC. If we go for Communism it will be better to keep the GSpy for a GAge.

Then I'd say skip the whole idea... :)

ChrisFromLux

May 25, 2009, 12:36 AM

It's tough keeping up with you guys! :)

It is impossible! :D

(Especially if you benefit from the great weather we had here over the last days, and spend the time with your son, wife and hobbies ;))

The priorities as I see them:

Just for the record: I also agree with this priority-list, mainly points 0) - 5).

For getting pillage-money: as long as we have the troops, we should use them. But once we need new units to continue pillaging, we need to carefully consider if it's still worth spending the hammers on the units, or if it's better to spend them on beakers or gold!

And for killing Joao just for fun, I do not agree! For the pillage money, yes, no problem, but for fun, No! That won't help our main goal!

And now, I'm waiting for Mastiff's turnset-plan ... :p

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 25, 2009, 09:24 AM

It is impossible! :D

(Especially if you benefit from the great weather we had here over the last days, and spend the time with your son, wife and hobbies ;))

And now, I'm waiting for Mastiff's turnset-plan ... :p

Tell me about it... It's been beautiful here, and I had to fix the fence (and now the deck) where a car hit it! :eek:

But, I printed it out, and I'm going to open the save again and review. Especially worker turns. We haven't discussed them much.

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 25, 2009, 01:19 PM

BETA V 0.1

Espionage

1) The EP going to Shaka to try to see his research should be shifted back once we can.

2) Consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the coal tile. (Slated in LM)

Troops

1) Move all troops into Babylon to heal

2) Attack Akkad… move counter-clockwise

3) Move CiB xbow covering worker up qnce Akkad is gone.

- On praras… I’ve never used them. I assume, once in a city, they can then drop six tiles away, with a 1 move ability, but no attack that turn. Is that basically it?

- (MF) I’d like to know this as well…

Sea Plans

1) Watch the caravel NW of Sippar. Do not let it sink our galleon.

2) Heal damaged galleon in SdL, then transport GM.

Cities

SdL

Airport > Odeon > Galleon > Galleon > Galleon

(MF) I assume since the boats are coming quickly we abandon the plan to partial build then and wait for oil?

Comments:

- Basically, according to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...

- Customs in SdL has taken the Cuzco trade route from JH, don’t know if that is a good thing?

- Globe in SdL makes sense for me. Would could build an Odeon and a market and probably get by, by why not build the Globe since we can? Than no more worries there, whatever WW becomes. USELESS?

- Sleeps may not be enough to get that many paras; we currently have only 9 (same as at the start of my set, 3 paras built, 3 paras lost). SdL seems the best place, although maybe we want a factory first? JH needs levee and factory, and if we want to build Three Gorges do we want a coal plant? Even with the stored GE I believe we will have some hammers still needed.

- 2 Transports for the Troopers one from Sippar one from SdL

- Anyway, it sounds like attacking Joao gets put off, or possible skipped entirely. Finish Hammi, building paras non-stop in Sleeps and galleons in SdL and maybe TR, load up and go!

- SdL and maybe TR should turn out a galleon or four.

- Get 3 or 4 galleons out of SdL

JH

SoL > Levee > Temple > Eif Tow? CR?

1) Cottage coal / Leave as Windmill *Yes or No*

- We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??

- The coal in JH I would leave as a windmill atm. The extra 1f helps a little bit and the extra 2h makes a difference with it losing most of its hammer tiles.

LM

Bank > Spy > Harbor (+6 gpt) > Market > Grocer > Obs

1) Run 8 Merchants for 24 GPT

- Stick with the merchants, yes. More gold per turn, multiplied by market/grocer/soon-to-be-bank. And another merchant would mix nicely for golden age fodder, even if we do not want the trade mission cash.

IT

CH > Temple > Factory > Coal plant > WB (Close to JIT for oil)

(MF) No TGD here… it’s off continent.

Sleeps

Odeon > Trooper #10 (2) > Cannon #1 (1) > Factory (5) > Cannon #2 (1) > Cannon #3 (1) > Cannon #4 (1) > Cannon #5 (1) ( From Kale!  )

Other comments:
- Forget the factory in Sleeps, yes it will help longterm, but we need Theatre + Odeon there for the happy.
- And some more troopers first before we commit to a factory. Factory adds nearly nothing compared to the +125% we already have there.
- Mount Rushmore probably SdL as Sleeps should be building units if we attack Joao.
- Cannons from Sleeps... One or two likely... the rest can come from Cities without barracks if needed. We need some additional Troopers as well to replace dying troopers
- Troopers? 3 from Sleeps in 6 turns, 2 more needed?
- 3 Accuracy cannons are "enough" to take down the culture completely in 2 turns
- 5 Accuracy cannons should be enough to take down the culture completely in 1 turn.
- 12 turn buildqueue, leaving some room for a 1 turn Odeon if needed.

(MF) I think the question here is when to build factory.

CiB

Factory > Theater > IPark

- It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.

- I think we do want that theater, though. Citizen specialists do not provide GPP.

- A factory is required for an Industrial park, CIB can probably use it, but will not change much for the odds or for the # of GP we will get. We are pulling forward the GPs... which may be important. Also a factory already allows for 2 GE slots...

FH

Lib > Odeon > Theater > Harbor (4 gpt) > Factory >

(MF) Switch out the 2 GA for GA?

- True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.

(MF) What would the Globe do here?

TR

Odeon > Levee > Galleon > Galleon

- SdL and maybe TR should turn out a galleon or four.

BT

CH > Levee > Harbor (4gpt) > LH or Market?

Dur K

Theater > Levee > Factory

Babylon

Factory > IW > Forb Palace

(MF) That’d be my que. (We can discuss the next GE)

Sippar

LH > Harbor (4gpt) > Galleon / Transport > Galleon / Transport

Finance

(1) Run at 100%

(2) GM to Cuzco (Carefully…)

- We have 1400 gold in the bank at 150gpt that’s 9 turns not taking into account any gold gotten from conquest or trade. We have time with the GM!

- We should be good for at least 10 based on that alone, with war booty 4 * 100 we should be good for another 2/3 turns more. We have time with the GM!

- Plus CiB will finish the NE in a couple turns, and we should get somewhere around 400 gold from non-builds. Assuming we actually get gold for all the non-builds, and not for only one.
-
Stay at 100% research to the end of the game, hopefully putting in the last beaker on turn 190? (over 195 our previous target)

Wonders

(1) Finish SoL

(2) Perhaps start ET or CR in JH…

- And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants

- On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US

- We will definitely build CR, it is just a question of when. No more than 20 turns from now, though.

Workers

Biff – Preserve @ CiB
Obama – Preserve on site
Fearless – Cottage coal *Yes or No* (Otherwise he goes 1S to windmill)
AC – Finish chop… help Fearless
Jules Verne – Finish preserve > Start Opis preserve
DeLorean - Finish preserve > Start preserve
Thorrez – Mine coal > Road coal (We need at least one sorce.)
Island Boy (I intend to name them all this turn!) Finish chop > Road
namliaM – CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Emmett & Einy - CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Worker SE SE of CiB – Chop > Head for Hammi cities
Worker NW of BT – Preserve forest
Worker SW Sleeps - Finish preserve / Go chopping

- Why move Thorrez to the Coal if 1) You are not sure we want to connect it 2) We dont quite need it yet

(MF) 12 turns if you believe the game. Might as well do it.

- Instead Thorrez should be working on a windmill for TR, for now we road it and move SE for a windmill I think?

- A couple workers are unmoved, one on the JH coal so we can decide what to do with it.

- The other coal is roaded and 1 turn from a mine. We may want to wait until coal is needed, to avoid health hits from factories.

Great People

Saved GE is for Three Gorges.

GG - Medic 3 and two-move promotion for the 7 XP xbow, upgrading free to infantry. A fast, tough unit so it can move quickly to meet up with paras outside target cities, and heals adjacent stacks if it can not quite get there in time. Woods 3 would not be able to get the additional move promo, so it could not keep up with the paras.

(MF) If you want ME to do this… give me some very detailed instructions. I’ve never used a GG like that.

War

(1) End war with WK ASAP.

(2) Prepare to attack HC.

- Except why declare on WK. Can't be helped now so we'll just have to make the best of it. Hopefully somewhere along the way HC will join in and we can get him to friendly that way.

- The war weariness should drop next turn so hopefully we can get some unhappy pop back. I'm sure that is what has happened to me before after taking the SoZ. I don't usually take much notice of these things though

- Just one last one I would leave Ham's hill city West of Babylon as the last one to take. Might not make much difference but at least if we lose a few units attacking if won't matter to much then

- Getting rid of that city would free land tiles for Sippar to work. I think we want that sooner rather than later, along with Akkad to remove borders at CiB so we can safely finish the last two preserves.
-
I am still not convinced we want Joao's cities. Maybe conquer them for gold and then liberate them...possibly keeping the best ones or the ones with resources we do not have. But some of them are junk, like Sippar, and would just be a net drain

From previous:

- 1) Move the troopers to Babylon (including the one in Opis)

- 2) Promote and heal 1 trooper to 16 strength
The two 9 strength troopers need (at 25% or 6 strength per turn) 1 turn to get to 16 strength. This gives us 6 "worthy" attackers (at 16 and more), fly in the fresh trooper from Sleeps for city defence drop to Borsippa possibly. If there are 6 or less defenders take the Worthy ones, otherwize determain if we can/need to bring more but less worthy attackers to take it.

- 3) Bombard (probably) Borsippa and take it, hopefully having 6 or less defenders.
Fly the Cannon into Babylon from Sleeps

- 4) MOve the cannon towards Nippur (if Borsippa isnt ours yet), otherwize move to Akkad.

- (5) If Borsippa has been taken move troopers to attack Nippur, otherwize take Borsippa.

Tech path

Steel > Industrialism > Railroad > Combustion > Plastics

Nat Wonders

- The most important imho is the Ironworks. I still can't see any better city than Babylon.

- Ironworks is possible in Sleeps too... We simply need to count hammers though AND not unimportant consider timing... at 469 its pretty expensive to build

- Rushmore would definitely be useful, just have to decide where to build it. JH could do it, if we are sure we do not want something else there (IW?).

- Globe in SdL makes sense for me. Would could build an odeon and a market and probably get by, by why not build the Globe since we can? Than no more worries there, whatever WW becomes.

- But IW is very expensive, and Babylon has a lot of rebuilding to do and some turns in revolt before it can even start. Can Babylon finish IW soon enough to be worthwhile, compared to JH or SdL or Dur Kur or Sleeps?

- SdL only has one national wonder slot left after Moai. Rushmore here means no Globe. Maybe IT could build Rushmore? Or GV or BT?

Civics

(1) Stay in current civics.

- I think staying in Enviro and building FP (and maybe Versailles) is the better approach. Keep all that windmill and preserve commerce, and reduce some of the distance cost. Plus the 2800 beaker research cost. Although the free GSpy could be useful.

- SP blocks corporations, and Enviro boosts their costs. Not sure Mining Inc would be worthwhile.

Stuff

(1) Joao's GM! Keep an eye on him getting a chunk of gold and trading our maps to him? If he gets that gold to be able to trade to us

(2) Sail the Atlantis galleon around Portugal to get to Sippar/SdL.

(3) Try and get Rocketry from HC.

(4) Secure MoM for our golden ages. (Needs are shown in the builds)

KaleLambiek

May 25, 2009, 02:58 PM

BETA V 0.1

Espionage

1) The EP going to Shaka to try to see his research should be shifted back once we can.

2) Consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the coal tile. (Slated in LM)

What coastal tile?? Why?? what for? Where?

Troops

1) Move all troops into Babylon to heal
Only heal up to 16 or so strength... No more is needed :) Just make sure to use the Zeppelins first

2) Attack Akkad… move counter-clockwise

3) Move CiB xbow covering worker up qnce Akkad is gone.

- On praras… I’ve never used them. I assume, once in a city, they can then drop six tiles away, with a 1 move ability, but no attack that turn. Is that basically it?

- (MF) I’d like to know this as well
Suggest you try a worldbuilder example... 5 tiles +1 tile movement... And I would probabably go clockwize to open up Sippar, though it shouldnt matter that much.

Sea Plans

1) Watch the caravel NW of Sippar. Do not let it sink our galleon.

2) Heal damaged galleon in SdL, then transport GM.

Cities

SdL

Airport > Odeon > Galleon > Galleon > Galleon
Airport > FACTORY > Galleon > Galleon > Galleon (insert Odeon if/when needed)

(MF) I assume since the boats are coming quickly we abandon the plan to partial build then and wait for oil?
Correct, Galleons are cheaper and we dont need more space...

Comments:

- Basically, according to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...

- Customs in SdL has taken the Cuzco trade route from JH, don’t know if that is a good thing?

- Globe in SdL makes sense for me. Would could build an Odeon and a market and probably get by, by why not build the Globe since we can? Than no more worries there, whatever WW becomes. USELESS?

- Sleeps may not be enough to get that many paras; we currently have only 9 (same as at the start of my set, 3 paras built, 3 paras lost). SdL seems the best place, although maybe we want a factory first? JH needs levee and factory, and if we want to build Three Gorges do we want a coal plant? Even with the stored GE I believe we will have some hammers still needed.

- 2 Transports for the Troopers one from Sippar one from SdL

- Anyway, it sounds like attacking Joao gets put off, or possible skipped entirely. Finish Hammi, building paras non-stop in Sleeps and galleons in SdL and maybe TR, load up and go!

- SdL and maybe TR should turn out a galleon or four.

- Get 3 or 4 galleons out of SdL
3 plus the 2 we have already (sail the Atlantis Galleon around Portugal!) should be enough for 4/5/6 cannons + 9/10/11 Troopers

JH

SoL > Levee > Temple > Eif Tow? CR?
Temple? Why? An odeon would be cheaper and more efficients (at 2 happy instead of 1)
And no Factory / Coal plant? Why not?

1) Cottage coal / Leave as Windmill *Yes or No*
Cottage no question IMHO

- We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??

- The coal in JH I would leave as a windmill atm. The extra 1f helps a little bit and the extra 2h makes a difference with it losing most of its hammer tiles.
Take the Corn from LM if need be.

LM

Bank > Spy > Harbor (+6 gpt) > Market > Grocer > Obs
Erm did you check this/? WHY a Spy?
It already has a Market AND a Grocer?? Or are we playing different games?

1) Run 8 Merchants for 24 GPT

- Stick with the merchants, yes. More gold per turn, multiplied by market/grocer/soon-to-be-bank. And another merchant would mix nicely for golden age fodder, even if we do not want the trade mission cash.
How would we run 8?! Merchants?? 1) We dont have the food 2) dont have the slots?? Or??

IT

CH > Temple > Factory > Coal plant > WB (Close to JIT for oil)
Why Oil? Dont need no Oil right now, probably needs Aquaduct to compensate for the lost health for factory and Chopping of forests to Cottages.

Sleeps

Odeon > Trooper #10 (2) > Cannon #1 (1) > Factory (5) > Cannon #2 (1) > Cannon #3 (1) > Cannon #4 (1) > Cannon #5 (1) ( From Kale!  )
Forget the Odeon, we have some preserves going up and WW going down! Forget the Odeon (for now)

(MF) I think the question here is when to build factory. Post cannons, we need them for Cuzco

CiB

Factory > Theater > IPark

- It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.

- I think we do want that theater, though. Citizen specialists do not provide GPP.
If you want the Theatre it would be Theatre > Factory not the otherway around....

FH

Lib > Odeon > Theater > Harbor (4 gpt) > Factory >

(MF) Switch out the 2 GA for GA?
Again, did you check this??? FH already has a Theatre! Lib > Odeon
Probably start Forge > Factory after the Odeon (forge first ofcourse!) to start making a semi decent production city once we workshop the place! Post GP born ofcourse.

Run 2 Artists + 2 scientists when the lib is done. Then 4+2 once the Odeon is done.

- True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.

(MF) What would the Globe do here?
Globe MIGHT go into Dur K. I am now thinking... Together with IW to make sure it can work all the tiles...

TR

Odeon > Levee > Galleon > Galleon

- SdL and maybe TR should turn out a galleon or four.
:mad: :cry:
Oh... SdL is building the 3 Galleons we need Skip the galleons here!
Odeon > Levee > Factory
Skip the Odeon if possible... but insert again on time to not have unhappy ... The unhappy should drop some for a few turns.
BT

CH > Levee > Harbor (4gpt) > LH or Market?
Market?? We are running 100% science what good would a market do ?? :crazyeye:

I would probably skip the Harbor here, its not 4 but 3 commerce and only untill BT gets to size 15 at which point its useless.... Courthouse > Levee > Factory > OBs > Lab
Then probably mix in a Lighthouse at some point (post Hammy dead) when we can grow a bit again.... Untill Hammy dead... food is just wasted on Unhappy anyways.

Dur K

Theater > Levee > Factory
Odeon?
Forge?

Babylon

Factory > IW > Forb Palace

(MF) That’d be my que. (We can discuss the next GE)
Kindof hard to do... With no courthouse! no FP! Where did we decide on where to build the IW?? I think that is one of the points to be discussed/decided.
IW IMHO looks strong(est) in Dur K.

What about Confu temple? Forge? Odeon?

Sippar

LH > Harbor (4gpt) > Galleon / Transport > Galleon / Transport
XNe on the Galeone... They are beeing build in SdL, we dont need 10 Galleons/transports

Again harbor may be 3 certainly NOT 4 gpt. Perhaps a Forge to increase future gold building revenue...

Wonders

(1) Finish SoL

(2) Perhaps start ET or CR in JH…
I think we need to prepare JH for the Gorge, buildings needed... not in any order
SoL
Levee (+10.5 hammers)
Factory (only +4 hammers without the levee, +6 hammers with the Levee)
Coal (+13 hammers with the levee )
Aquaduct (health)
Hospital (health)
Odeon (happy)
Temple (happy)

- And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants
Run merchants?? Erm... correction, I know this was said somewhere... but we arent running CoL anymore and dont have any Markets/Grocers = no Merchant slots anywhere!!!!

- On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US

- We will definitely build CR, it is just a question of when. No more than 20 turns from now, though.
I would say with purpetual GA comming up, forget about CR... A waste of 1000 hammers IMHO. IF we would build it, when and where?

Workers

Biff – Preserve @ CiB
Obama – Preserve on site
Why preserve outside any cities BFC?? Doesnt make sense! Chop it!

Fearless – Cottage coal *Yes or No* (Otherwise he goes 1S to windmill)
Windmill over a cottage??? :crazyeye: Your kidding right :lol:

AC – Finish chop… help Fearless
Jules Verne – Finish preserve > Start Opis preserve
Opis Preserve??? How is Opis going to grow to enjoy the increased happyness?? NOT it doesnt have food....

DeLorean - Finish preserve > Start preserve
But not on a hill, perhaps even windmill a hill for FH? With Odeon comming up for added happy and 6 specialists its not going to have much food to grow to use that extra happy anytime soon.

Thorrez – Mine coal > Road coal (We need at least one sorce.)
There is already a road there!!! Mine and then what? Mine around TR or windmill around TR? Team??

Island Boy (I intend to name them all this turn!) Finish chop > Road
Why a road? What would it serve??

namliaM – CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Emmett & Einy - CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Worker SE SE of CiB – Chop > Head for Hammi cities
And what about our own core cities? LM/GV needs cottages BAD!

Worker NW of BT – Preserve forest
We would only have the preserve for during the Hammy war... Otherwize totaly useless and a waste of 4 turns preserving. Cottage instead I think?

Worker SW Sleeps - Finish preserve / Go chopping
This one should be building more preserves, we want preserves all around those 2 barren Plains tiles to stimulate forest growth there.

GG - Medic 3 and two-move promotion for the 7 XP xbow, upgrading free to infantry. A fast, tough unit so it can move quickly to meet up with paras outside target cities, and heals adjacent stacks if it can not quite get there in time. Woods 3 would not be able to get the additional move promo, so it could not keep up with the paras.

(MF) If you want ME to do this… give me some very detailed instructions. I’ve never used a GG like that.
Again world builder it...
1) Make sure the 7xp Xbow is alone on a tile
2) Move the GG to the XBow
3) Make sure the 7xp Xbow is alone on a tile together with the GG
4) Double check there is NO other unit but the 7xp XBow and the GG on the tile
5) Press the lead troop button
6) Promote (carefully) the xbow to Medic 2 and 3 and Morale...

I know I have made mistakes doing this to quickly!

War
(1) End war with WK ASAP.
Even if it costs us 10g or a small tech... And get OBs as well as take his GPT or resources he has.

In short, Lots of (re-)work yet to be done??!! :sad:

Mastiff_of_Ar

May 25, 2009, 03:36 PM

Enjoy... I did my best. I put together the comments from the last 4 pages. That's why you are the good player, and me... not so much.

I set it out there to be ripped apart.

MF

haphazard1

May 25, 2009, 10:10 PM

BETA V 0.1

OK, now we've got a starting point for discusion. Lots of updates and refinements to suggest, and Kale has already covered a lot as well.

Espionage

1) The EP going to Shaka to try to see his research should be shifted back once we can.

2) Consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the coal tile. (Slated in LM)

A spy for the coal was my suggestion, but it is a low priority. We are not using the coal for anything yet, so it can wait a while, until next turnset at least I think.

Troops

1) Move all troops into Babylon to heal

Do not forget the one para in Opis.

2) Attack Akkad… move counter-clockwise

3) Move CiB xbow covering worker up qnce Akkad is gone.

- On praras… I’ve never used them. I assume, once in a city, they can then drop six tiles away, with a 1 move ability, but no attack that turn. Is that basically it?

- (MF) I’d like to know this as well…

If starting the turn in a city, they can drop 5 tiles, with 1 move and no attack after. The target tile must be visible (a quick zep can help with this if needed) and not occupied by any enemy unit.

Sea Plans

1) Watch the caravel NW of Sippar. Do not let it sink our galleon.

2) Heal damaged galleon in SdL, then transport GM.

Sounds good. The caravel is not likely to be a problem, but watch it anyway. Losing our GM would be a disaster.

Also, start the galleon by Atlantis moving to SdL.

Cities

SdL

Airport > Odeon > Galleon > Galleon > Galleon

(MF) I assume since the boats are coming quickly we abandon the plan to partial build then and wait for oil?

Odeon only if needed once the WW drops. This is true everywhere -- build what happiness buildings we need, as we need them. Just keep an eye on the cap, and know that (after next turn) the WW will start climbing again as we take cities.

For SdL, I think finish the airport, then factory to boost hammers. We should have time to do that and still get 3 galleons built in time (for a total of 5).

Comments:

- 2 Transports for the Troopers one from Sippar one from SdL

Galleons and not transports, and forget Sippar building anything. Just too few hammers there, until Borsippa's culture is removed and Sippar can work more land tiles.

JH

SoL > Levee > Temple > Eif Tow? CR?

I would go (with usual "build happy as needed") for SoL > Levee. Then probably factory, unless we need more happiness. In which case a temple for the bonus hammers and happy could work. SoL and Levee will likely take the whole turnset, though.

1) Cottage coal / Leave as Windmill *Yes or No*

- We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??

- The coal in JH I would leave as a windmill atm. The extra 1f helps a little bit and the extra 2h makes a difference with it losing most of its hammer tiles.

Cottage, cottage, cottage! We need every beaker we can squeeze out of JH, so cottage that coal (and other windmills which are still up). In fact, after finishing SoL as quickly as possible to get our Rep specialists contributing beakers, I would even build more happiness before the levee and convert more forest preserves into cottages once there is room under the happy cap. #1 priority at JH is beakers.

JH's hammers will continue to fall, but we just have to live with that until the cottages mature to towns and we can swap to US to get some hammers back.

LM

Bank > Spy > Harbor (+6 gpt) > Market > Grocer > Obs

1) Run 8 Merchants for 24 GPT

We already have market and grocer in LM, allowing 4 merchants for 24 GPT (it is good to be philosophical). Work the improved tiles we have, and run specialists for the rest. After the 4 merchants, engineer and then scientists I guess. But do not starve the city.

Finish the bank, then start a factory. As usual, build happiness if needed but not otherwise.

IT

CH > Temple > Factory > Coal plant > WB (Close to JIT for oil)

(MF) No TGD here… it’s off continent.

I would delay the temple until after the coal plant unless we need the happiness. Also, watch health here carefully -- factory and coal plant will hurt a lot. Agree on the WB -- it should be ready and waiting on the oil tile the turn we complete Plastics.

Sleeps

Odeon > Trooper #10 (2) > Cannon #1 (1) > Factory (5) > Cannon #2 (1) > Cannon #3 (1) > Cannon #4 (1) > Cannon #5 (1) ( From Kale!  )

Odeon only if we need it - remember WW should decrease some next turn. While we want a factory here, it is not very important until we are about to have power available since the HE gives us such a large bonus here already for military. I would probably build several paras, then 6 cannon, timed so the last cannon can reach the fleet just in time for departure. The factory can come a bit later, I think.

CiB

Factory > Theater > IPark

Fit the theater in if/when needed. The two additional preserves are at least a few turns away, so I think Kale is right and we go directly for the factory, then IPark.

FH

Lib > Odeon > Theater > Harbor (4 gpt) > Factory >

We have a theater already to run 2 artists. Get the lib finished and add 2 scientists, then the odeon to run 2 more artists. That should keep the city in balance working food tiles and specialists. Harbor is not much use here since we do not have many multiplier buildings, so skip it and start a forge.

TR

Odeon > Levee > Galleon > Galleon

SdL will handle the galleon building duty. Build happiness as needed, and work on a factory (and probably a coal plant). I think we will build Three Gorges here, and even with the GE we will need a bunch of hammers. Make sure to get a worker or two here to windmill the remaining hills, including the jungled one.

Levee...not worth it, at least for now. Factory and coal plant first.

BT

CH > Levee > Harbor (4gpt) > LH or Market?

Finish CH, absolutely. Happiness as needed, then factory. We need factories nearly everywhere. Market should not be needed as we are running 100% science and can build other happiness. The levee can wait, as it brings very small benefit here.

Dur K

Theater > Levee > Factory

Happiness as needed, and levee, factory, yes. This will be a big hammer city.

Babylon

Factory > IW > Forb Palace

(MF) That’d be my que. (We can discuss the next GE)

IW is not settled yet, and Babylon needs a lot of infra first. Happiness as needed (as usual), granary, courthouse, FP after CH maybe. May want factory first.

Sippar

LH > Harbor (4gpt) > Galleon / Transport > Galleon / Transport

Until Sippar gets more land tiles to work, LH will probably take the whole turnset. :( No galleons from here. Maybe start a forge after LH?

Finance

(1) Run at 100%

(2) GM to Cuzco (Carefully…)

And GM should take a good look around while there, maybe a screenie or two, so we have some idea what our fleet will face.

Wonders

(1) Finish SoL

(2) Perhaps start ET or CR in JH…

- And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants

Finish SoL, a top priority to get those Rep specialists contributing beakers. Not all cities will have slots for a free specialist, but the turn we finish SoL make sure to go through all cities and tweak the assignments. The governors love to assign spy specialists. :( My preferences in order (if there is a slot to support them) are: engineers, merchants, scientists, priests, spies, artists, citizens.

No more wonders in JH for a while -- the city needs a levee and factory first, and with its reduced hammers that will take a while.

Workers

Biff – Preserve @ CiB
Obama – Preserve on site

Can not recall where Obama is -- if he is one of the two workers on a forest outside the CiB fat cross, he should chop rather than preserve. Or head to help Biff preserve west of CiB. Watching out for Hammi sneaking a unit in, of course!

Fearless – Cottage coal *Yes or No* (Otherwise he goes 1S to windmill)

Cottage coal, yes! Cottage, cottage, cottage JH, as much as happiness allows. Then build more happiness buildings and cottage some more! Forget the hammers, JH will just have to live without them for now. We must have those beakers.

AC – Finish chop… help Fearless
Jules Verne – Finish preserve > Start Opis preserve

Opis does not need preserves -- it will have happiness to spare for ages to come. Maybe help preserve at Sleeps instead?

DeLorean - Finish preserve > Start preserve
Thorrez – Mine coal > Road coal (We need at least one sorce.)
Island Boy (I intend to name them all this turn!) Finish chop > Road

The coal under Thorrez is already roaded, and only needs 1 turn to finish the mine. And island worker does not need to road -- no point to it. Back to the mainland to help out around BT and GV, probably?

namliaM – CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Emmett & Einy - CiB preserves > Head for Hammi cities
Worker SE SE of CiB – Chop > Head for Hammi cities
Worker NW of BT – Preserve forest
Worker SW Sleeps - Finish preserve / Go chopping

I would not send all these guys to our newly captured cities. A couple maybe, to start improving more around Dur-Kur (watching them for safety). The others to GV and BT, and maybe TR to help get the windmills done.

Great People

Saved GE is for Three Gorges.

GG - Medic 3 and two-move promotion for the 7 XP xbow, upgrading free to infantry. A fast, tough unit so it can move quickly to meet up with paras outside target cities, and heals adjacent stacks if it can not quite get there in time. Woods 3 would not be able to get the additional move promo, so it could not keep up with the paras.

(MF) If you want ME to do this… give me some very detailed instructions. I’ve never used a GG like that.

Check Kale's instructions. The key point is to have only the 7 XP xbow and the GG in the tile when you hit the "Attach Warlord" button. Otherwise the bonus XP gets split among all units on the tile, even though only one of them gets turned into a "Warlord" unit.

Also, any new GP born should be saved for future golden ages. If we get a GE or another GM, we can debate what to do with them.

War

(1) End war with WK ASAP.

If he will talk.... :( Sorry again about this guys. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time. :(

(2) Prepare to attack HC.

Galleons in SdL, cannon from Sleeps, and paras once Hammi is finished.

Of course, I would add as (0) - Finish Hammi ASAP! :lol:

From previous:

- 1) Move the troopers to Babylon (including the one in Opis)

- 2) Promote and heal 1 trooper to 16 strength
The two 9 strength troopers need (at 25% or 6 strength per turn) 1 turn to get to 16 strength. This gives us 6 "worthy" attackers (at 16 and more), fly in the fresh trooper from Sleeps for city defence drop to Borsippa possibly. If there are 6 or less defenders take the Worthy ones, otherwize determain if we can/need to bring more but less worthy attackers to take it.

I would heal a bit more in Babylon, taking an extra turn or even two. We destroyed Hammi's zeps in Babylon, and while he might build one or two more, we will not see the constant airstrikes. So we should heal now, in the city with the medic I. While we can fight at 16, it greatly increases the odds we will lose experienced, promoted troopers. :( One or two extra turns now, with all the troopers in one place with a medic, will turn 85% fights into 95+% fights.

Obviously, if you can get 4 or 5 paras to 20 or better in 1 turn, great! Attack! :hammer: But we can afford a couple turns of healing to speed our later attacks and greatly reduce the odds of losing our precious promoted troopers.

- 3) Bombard (probably) Borsippa and take it, hopefully having 6 or less defenders.
Fly the Cannon into Babylon from Sleeps

- 4) MOve the cannon towards Nippur (if Borsippa isnt ours yet), otherwize move to Akkad.

- (5) If Borsippa has been taken move troopers to attack Nippur, otherwize take Borsippa.

Use the cannon if there is time to move them around. But if we heal our troopers up for a couple turns, we won't need them. Babylon was only such a tough fight because most of our units were heavily wounded. Don't let the cannon slow you down if our troopers are strong enough without them.

Tech path

Steel > Industrialism > Railroad > Combustion > Plastics

Yep. :)

Nat Wonders

I do not think we need to worry about any national wonders this turnset. Too much other stuff to build first, especially factories.

Civics
(1) Stay in current civics.

:agree: Next civic swap should be around T160, to US + FS just as our cottages reach town status.

Stuff

(1) Joao's GM! Keep an eye on him getting a chunk of gold and trading our maps to him? If he gets that gold to be able to trade to us

Very important! Watch this guy like the proverbial hawk. Probably going to either Babylon or JH, but you never know.

(2) Sail the Atlantis galleon around Portugal to get to Sippar/SdL.

(3) Try and get Rocketry from HC.

(4) Secure MoM for our golden ages. (Needs are shown in the builds)

All good ideas. :)

OK, things are starting to take shape.

Sleepless

May 26, 2009, 07:25 AM

I'm fine with most of what has been said so far. Once Ham has been conquered we can fly a blimp to Cuzco to see how many units HC has and how many Galleons we will need. Will the GM galleon be back in time for the assualt? Possibly need a couple more.

The war with WK. I can't see him talking for a while and even if we get a peace deal he will sulk and not OB for a long time so I can't see any point in ending the war there. If we built the CR we could go back to 1 turn in Caste then back to eman and he might OB then but I doubt it. On the other hand we might get some money from him by selling techs so perhaps peace might be a better idea if we can get it.

The coal in JH I would prefer to mine it. With Burea/rr that tile would be worth 9 hammers to JH and it still needs to build infra. We can also trade our spare coal for lots of resources/money if there are any going around.

The 3 Gorges still needs a lot of hammers to build even with the GE. Approx 500 - 600 so I would still prefer an instant IW in Babylon (Dur K I don't like unless we adopt SP as it doesn't have much spare food) which is worth 400 ish hammers and build coal/hydro plants everywhere else (except CiB which would need a nuclear plant or forego the power). The power isn't worth anything till we build the factories which can then build the power plants quickly anyway. Rather than waiting for somewhere to finish the 3 Gorges which will be sometime away and we might not get much benefit from it. Next time I open the save I'll try and work it out very approximately but that probably won't be until Mastiff has finished his turnset. :)

JerichoHill

May 26, 2009, 09:51 AM

Hey folks, chiming in here just to say I have internet access at Super Burger~! (burger shack ran by a rasta) and I'll downloading the last few pages and read them and chime in tomorrow!

haphazard1

May 26, 2009, 10:10 AM

The 3 Gorges still needs a lot of hammers to build even with the GE. Approx 500 - 600 so I would still prefer an instant IW in Babylon (Dur K I don't like unless we adopt SP as it doesn't have much spare food) which is worth 400 ish hammers and build coal/hydro plants everywhere else (except CiB which would need a nuclear plant or forego the power). The power isn't worth anything till we build the factories which can then build the power plants quickly anyway. Rather than waiting for somewhere to finish the 3 Gorges which will be sometime away and we might not get much benefit from it. Next time I open the save I'll try and work it out very approximately but that probably won't be until Mastiff has finished his turnset. :)

Three Gorges is such a perfect fit for our civ, though, with all but 1 city on the landmass getting power from it. Yes, it will take a fair number of hammers even with the GE, but compared to building power plants in 12-15 cities it is well worth building. And the health savings will be significant as well. Lots of coal plants means lots of unhealthiness, and possibly trouble with global warming.

We have time before Plastics is finished to build a factory and coal plant in the city which will build Three Gorges. I favor TR for this -- it has finished most of its infra and can start on the factory and coal plant ASAP, and with a couple more windmills it will have enough base hammers to finish Three Gorges in 10-12 turns after the GE is used. This is not too bad a delay in getting power for our other cities, as most of them will take time to get infra and their factories completed anyway.

Alternate Three Gorges sites could be BT, Dur Kur, or (less likely due to reduced hammers) JH.

KaleLambiek

May 26, 2009, 11:24 AM

A spy for the coal was my suggestion, but it is a low priority.
Low - low - low proirity, if ever... Who cares if the coal gets pillaged? We dont particularly need Coal except for a few turns to power the coal plant to build Gorge.
And for a few turns to build some RR on any mines we have.... Beyond that... Dont need it... Give / trade it away to get some GPT or some health/happy resource.

Just too few hammers there, until Borsippa's culture is removed and Sippar can work more land tiles.
Which is why I would go after Borsippa first. It cleans up the culture from both Babylon and Sippar.

-JH-
In which case a temple for the bonus hammers and happy could work
JH has a confu temple already long time... A Taoist temple wont bring hammers.

We already have market and grocer in LM, allowing 4 merchants for 24 GPT (it is good to be philosophical).
4 merchants, 24 GPT?? You mean GPP I think?
Thought with the MGB 4 merchants bring 12 GPT + 100% = 24 GPT So maybe you mean that, but what does Philo have to do with that??

I think Mastiff did mean 8 Merchants for 8 * 3 = 24 GPT, which is just plain not possible.
Agree on the WB -- it should be ready and waiting on the oil tile the turn we complete Plastics.
what will we be using the Oil for, perhaps as a trading source? OK
But when will we 'need' it to build Tanks/Bombers? What else would we need Oil for?

While we want a factory here, it is not very important until we are about to have power available since the HE gives us such a large bonus here already for military.
Yes we can... but do we need to? If we are transporting 9 troopers to Incan lands... Do we need 15 troopers?? My idea is this...
13 turns to get the Galleon from Atlantis around Portugal to Sippar (Departure point for HC force).
Trooper # 10 (2)> Cannon # 1 (1)> Factory (5)> Cannon # 2 (1)> Cannon # 3 (1)> Cannon # 4 (1)> Cannon # 5 (1)

12 turns total que, probably need an Odeon inserted someplace for a turn turn build = 13 turns total.
Trooper #10 we have as backup, in case one dies in the remaining Hammy campaign.
The early cannon (prior to Factory) to take down the culture of the last city (Sippar or Akkad, depending on which way we go) to ensure
1) Best odds
2) Even (heavy) damaged troopers can finish the job.

Also 5 cannons should be enough as well, making room for 10 troopers to be transported.

I think we will build Three Gorges here, and even with the GE we will need a bunch of hammers.
Why build Gorge in TR? JH is stronger IMHO. The GE gives a few more hammers and when completed infra (Levee > Factory > Coal) it will produce more hammers than anywhere else.
Also we have those western forests in JH in hand to chop into Gorge (at +100% = 40 hammers per forest), 5 forests = 200 hammers!

So dont chop any forests around JH just yet... Pre-chop perhaps, or go Cottage LM... But dont finish the chops in JH, those hammers are intended for Gorge! Whats more during the war with Hammy (another reason to finish it quickly!), we need the happyness from the preserves of JH.

My preferences in order (if there is a slot to support them) are: engineers, merchants, scientists, priests, spies, artists, citizens.
Cannot run Merchants ANYWHERE! Except for LM, where we are already running 4.
The coal under Thorrez is already roaded, and only needs 1 turn to finish the mine. And island worker does not need to road -- no point to it. Back to the mainland to help out around BT and GV, probably?
If we are worried about a Spy destroying the Mine, perhaps delay this? Personaly the AI is so random at destroying improvements... Just mine it and see...
If we delay it, it will reduce the risk of us losing it to a Spy...

I would heal a bit more in Babylon, taking an extra turn or even two.
We dont have time or luxury to sit and heal! For 2 reasons
1) We cannot finish cottaging JH untill Hammy is dead!
2) After 13 turns of travel the Atlantis Galleon arrives at Sippar. Which means in 14 turns we must be ready to set sail (= Hammy must be dead!).
14 turns is NOT a lot of time though doable. 16 strength may seem inconsequential compared to 24. But consider that the last defender(s) of any city will be Catapult(s)
1) Only 5 strength
2) Dont get advantage of Culture/Fortification

The top-CG-promoted-5-turn-fortified-LB-defenders in any city will be Zep Bombed, then killed by top-notch-almost-full-health-multi-(drill)-promoted Troopers.
Whats left is an assortment of Xbows/Catapults which are much less strong defending a city but simply need to be killed. Getting the numbers is KEY, not the power.
24 vs 5 is 99.9+% offcourse, but 10 vs 5 is also 99+% I think... 16 is even better... At what point do we reach 99%? or even 90+% or 95+% what odds are good enough?
No sense in running to big risks, but if we can take out Hammy in 13 turns... lets do it... whats more... we should...

With 4 cities left to do and 4 turns per city (Land/Drop==>Attack==>Move into city==>Heal 1 turn>Rinse and repeat), we need to find 3 turns someplace to make up... That is by spliting the last two cities...
The Final northern city, which will likely be lightly defended.
And the "other final" city, which will be bombarded down culturaly.

Allowing us to split the forces with minimal impact. Also moving onwards towards the last city (s) without needing to heal will help, but pressed for time we are! No time to sit around looking for a "doctor in the house"

Don't let the cannon slow you down if our troopers are strong enough without them.
The cannon is only there for the last city, removing the culture 'ever so slowly' compared to Trooper conquest... but making it that much more easy for (heavy?) wounded (10/12 strength?) Troopers to take it down right at the end.
The cannon should not be used in attacking any other city... The delay is to big and the gain to little.

Next civic swap should be around T160, to US + FS just as our cottages reach town status.
Dont know about that... We wont be Hammer limited just yet... Perhaps keeping Rep for the Specialist beakers is better?
At some ~30 specialists empire wide for 30*3 = 90 beakers... Will be a while before the hammers from US-Towns reaches 90. Even at +100% that is 45 towns
Unless we need the hammers for Eifel/R&R, but atleast SdL can build one of those... While TR? builds the second?
Where to build Apollo?
Where to build IW? I really like Dur K., its the strongest hammer city... but will IW be finished in time there?
Gold building, do we want to use Eifel or Apollo for that? If so to what degree?? How much (if anything) do we want to delay them?

We have time before Plastics is finished to build a factory and coal plant in the city which will build Three Gorges. I favor TR for this -- it has finished most of its infra and can start on the factory and coal plant ASAP, and with a couple more windmills it will have enough base hammers to finish Three Gorges in 10-12 turns after the GE is used. This is not too bad a delay in getting power for our other cities, as most of them will take time to get infra and their factories completed anyway.

Alternate Three Gorges sites could be BT, Dur Kur, or (less likely due to reduced hammers) JH.
JH has 20 base hammers, this is the same as TR. But JH is (still) burocratic for +10 hammers and we can chop around JH. If you want speed I think JH is the place right now. Dont discount Dur K. to quickly, if we add a levee (and this is the KEY feature of Dur K.), it has 20 hammer right now at size 6! This is going to be a monster city!

There are 24.437 beakers deviding us and the gorge, at average 1275 beakers (now at 1121) that will take 16 turns. So the question becomes... What city will build Gorge the fastest 16 turns from now.

And I wouldnt discount the Bomb IW with the GE idea so quickly... In Dur K. with IW +100% = +20 hammers for a total of 40 and easily our biggest producer yet. Which MAY be able to build Gorge the fastest... Even from scratch... At 28 base hammers (work the 2 Levee grass farms + 3 plains levee farms more) Gorge is a 12 turn build from scratch in a IW/Factory/Coal plant city...
28 base hammers at size 11 is quite a lot! Plus in GA all those tiles get +hammer too