Leaders & King Units List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

Suggestions for House of Feanor:

The Sons of Feanor:

Maedhras
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthor
Curufin
Amrod
Amras

Some can also be Heroes & Captains

Let's see...

Both Finrod and Turgon seem like they could be good Noldor leaders as well, though Turgon could be a hero/captain. I don't think Galadriel was particularly important when the rest of the Noldor were, so she doesn't seem like a good choice.
(EDIT: Wasn't thinking about needing to keep it to three leaders, so Gil-galad might have to go if we put Finrod in. Fingolfin and Finwë absolutely have to stay.)

Fëanor alone seems OK as a Fëanorian leader, I don't remember the relative importance of his sons so I can't say which would be better for leader candidates and which would be heroes/captains. We might do something interesting with the sons to make the Fëanorians unique, and maybe have a Son of Fëanor unit that acts something like a Grigori Adventurer.

Olwë deserves a place as a Teleri leader too. And don't forget that Elwë and Thingol are the same person, so it may be best to leave him as a Sindar leader. And IDK about Celeborn, AFAIK he was more important after there were few enough Teleri that he was more a leader of the Sindar. (Still would leave him out as a Sindar leader though.)

Lúthien really didn't lead anybody, so she doesn't really fit as a leader. On the other hand, Elrond was a fairly important Sindar leader and probably should be in there.
Lúthien might be a Great Bard or whatever, or maybe something special with the Simarilli that I've been thinking about. (I've got some interesting ideas about them.)

Vanyar's fine, not much you can do with them.

That's a lot of leaders for Númenor, we might want to shrink the list a little. Elros and Ar-Pharazôn are necessary, and Tar-Palantir is a good choice too, but I don't know about the other two.

For Arnor and Gondor, there are some difficulties. I don't really like the idea of them both sharing three leaders even if all three fit both each equally. Plus, as it stands I think they both have too many overall, I think three total is a good upper limit for any civ. It's hard though, since Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn all deserve to be leaders, but so do the others that have been chosen for each civ.

I made a mistake and assumed Beorn needed a diaeresis, but apparently he doesn't.

The rest are good as they stand, except I think we should remove one from the Longbeards to fit the three-leaders guideline.

Oh, and what leader traits have we decided on? It'll help to know what to pick from when deciding.

Suggestions for Gondor:

Elendil
Anarion
Meneldil
Aragorn II

The Thingol for the Sindar is actually Thingol II.

Idea for Gondor and Arnor: Elendil can switch between them, but Isildur goes to Arnor and Gondor gets Anárion and Aragorn. Looking over the other Gondorian leader choices, they don't seem as important. Arvedui completes the set as an Arnorian leader.

And the Sindar Thingol was the same as Elwë, Thingol II or whatever was a title of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien who also ruled Doriath after Thingol died.

I will post a complete suggestion list a bit later. Stay tuned!

We're ninja-ing each other right and left.

Indeed we are! I could try to find more names, some though that were leaders were Maiar. Many Wives were very important, yet were not leaders as well.

Updated one further down.

I just saved my list and Berenthors' in the OP because of the server move at 7pm. I will be back around 8pm and keep checking until the site is up again. I will saty on now until the site goes down.

Smart.

Couple more suggestions:
I don't know who Enel and Imin are. They're not on the Encyclopedia of Arda.
I do think it should be Olwë instead of Elwë for the Teleri. I also think we need Thingol (that is, Elwë) as a Sindar leader, he was immensely important throughout the First Age.
I don't have any problem with Eärendur as an Arnorian leader, though I do think having Elendil for both works too.

Diacritics: I messed up on Beorn like I said, it should just be plain Beorn, and Anárion has an accent too.

Some comments on the list: I would suggest to also for the elves leave later leaders that were important in for example the third and second age (i.e. Gil-Galad, Celeborn). Galadriel as a ringbearer was important maybe from the Noldor.

For the house of feanor: maybe Celebrimbor, the one who made the rings. Celeborn definetly is of the Teleri (or Falmari) and Cirdan is also as a ringbearer very important so I would put him back in.

I don't like the split for Arnor and Gondor: Aragorn II definetly should go to both, but according to the Silmarillion which details the landing of Elendil, etc. in Middle Earth says that Elendil founded Arnor and that his sons Isildur and Anarion founded Gondor (one had a seat in Minas Anor, the other in Minas Ithil and they both ruled from Osgiliath). Of course they were high kings of the entire kingdom but this split seems like a better choice if we have to split them.

A last remark: do we have to limit it to three and if so why? I think it is not a problem to have more, or even to have different number of leaders for different civs.

Three is the limit for FFH, and any more just seems like a lot. Sure, you can go over, but it just seemed like a good guideline.

I don't know about ringbearers being leaders, but if it works, sure. I also don't have any problems with later leaders if we can make them work well.

I forgot that about Gondor and Arnor. So instead we have (at least) Aragorn, Elendil and Arvedui for Arnor, and Isildur, maybe Anárion, and Aragorn for Gondor? It also doesn't seem like a bad idea to cut Anárion and replace him with someone else important for Gondor.

The hard thing with the Teleri and the Sindar is that they are the same people with the same Leaders. The only thing that differentiates them is the time that they went to Valinor (2 separate groups).

I will also incorporate your ideas (T F & Berenthor) into the above list of mine. I will give a new post when completed.

T F: Enel & Imin are the two elves that awoke and those subraces of Elves are decended of them. It made it easier for Leaders to inlcude them, but they can be removed.

AFAIK, Sindar is the name for anybody who left the journey to Valinor after it started. Most, if not all, of them were Teleri, but it's not because they're Teleri. The Sindar have a significantly different set of leaders.

As for Enel and Imin, I don't think they're well-known enough to include. Except for the Vanyar there are enough people if you want to fill out three leaders anyway.

I'm working on finding music sections for leaders right now. I'll post them when I've got some stuff.

Let's try this again:

I have incorporated your ideas (T F & Berenthor) and my own:

Vanyar: Indis (Grandmother of Galadriel), Galadirel
Noldor: House of Fëanor: Curufin (Son of Fëanor, Father of Celebrimbor - Thus a direct line of Leadership)
Teleri: Lenwë (Ruled during the time of Elu Thingols' Disappearance)
Rohirrim: Perhaps Helm Hammerhand could be a Captain and Éomer could be the third Leader.

I left the Dunlendings, Easterlings and Haradrim alone so we have names for Captains & Heroes.

Leader List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Lenwë, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Cirdan, Elu Thingol

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë, Indis, Galadriel

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Palantir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

List looks mostly good. I think Elwë needs to be called Thingol, since his full Quenya name is Elwë Singollo but in Sindarin it's Elu Thingol (and the Sindar don't speak Quenya).

Only other suggestion is to replace Narmacil I with Hyarmendacil I, the king under whom Gondor reached its greatest height.

And unfortunately half of the song files I have for the soundtrack are corrupted, so I have to go through and rip them off of the disks again. Might take a while.

Not a problem with the music. That won't be needed for a little bit yet, so you have time. I will change Narmacil I. I will also change Elwe (you were the one calling him that by the way!).

Also, I am having a large Problem with the Vanyar. We won't get anymore names for them. All that the term "Vanyar" or "Eldar" means is the first group of elves to arive is Valinor. It isn't actually a Race. The Vanyar ARE the Noldor. So for now, unless decided otherwise I will leave in Imin, the First Among Elves.

I will also change Elwe (you were the one calling him that by the way!).
I think I said to call him Thingol earlier, but oh well ^_^

Also, I am having a large Problem with the Vanyar. We won't get anymore names for them. All that the term "Vanyar" or "Eldar" means is the first group of elves to arive is Valinor. It isn't actually a Race. The Vanyar ARE the Noldor. So for now, unless decided otherwise I will leave in Imin, the First Among Elves.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Vanyar
That should help clear it up for you. Reading on there, I also don't have a problem with Imin or whatever, but he doesn't seem that important as a leader, so it might be OK to just leave that slot empty.

One thing I didn't notice on the list: I don't think Dior really counts as Telerin - he was the son of Beren and Lúthien, and if anything he's Sindar. I think Cirdan works as a Telerin leader.

A last remark: do we have to limit it to three and if so why? I think it is not a problem to have more, or even to have different number of leaders for different civs.

The main reason I think it should be limited to 3 is:

For some, it will be much easier as there are very few names available. This way we won't have to make up as many names for the Captains & Heroes.

One thing I didn't notice on the list: I don't think Dior really counts as Telerin - he was the son of Beren and Lúthien, and if anything he's Sindar. I think Cirdan works as a Telerin leader.

Ah, but Luthien is Thingols Daughter. He was the Heir of Thingol and Thingol was both Teleri & Sindar. As I said, names are getting scarce but i will check out that link and then see about updating if there is good info there. I have been using a different source up until now. If this one proves good, I'll use it more.

EDIT: I put Indis in for Imin. She is Galadriels Grandmother (and thus Vanyar)

I guess my objection isn't that he's not Telerin, he just really doesn't count as a leader of the Teleri. I'm counting all Teleri still in Middle-earth by the beginning of the First Age and after as Sindar.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sindar
That should help too.

I replaced Imin with Indis. Now we are getting into the name problem again. On those lists the only name not repeated in BOTH Teleri & Sindarin is Enel. All others are on both lists because they are the same people. The only difference is that one group of Teleri/Sindarin went to Valinor before the second group of the same people. If you can find other names then great. Otherwise we might have some problems unless you want to replace the Sindarin list of Leaders. Even then we can only have 1 or 2 Leaders for Teleri and 1 Captain and 1 Hero unless we take from the Sindarin list.

See the problem? It is hard to decide what to do in this situation.

EDIT: Also, most Teleri were killed off in the First Age!

To be honest this is how the Elves are truly divided:

Vanyar/Noldor

Teleri/Sindar

I am relenting and will put Lenwë in place of Dior.

The Teleri definitely are a problem. We might have to go with just one leader for them.
I don't think just one leader is such a bad thing though, if we don't have anyone else then oh well. If we really need to we can include some of the Teleri from Middle-earth, but unless we want to change the civ list we should focus on the Teleri as the Teleri in Aman. I can see your problem though.

Suggestions:
Teleri: Olwë, someone else if they present themselves (if we absolutely have to Círdan, but he's really more Sindarin)
Sindarin: Thingol, Elrond and probably Thranduil

EDIT: Ninja-ed, Lenwë actually doesn't sound bad as a Telerin leader.

EDIT EDIT: You can at least divide those two divisions by skills and lineage if nothing more:
Vanyar: Ingwë, staying put in Aman
Noldor: Finwë, craftsmanship
Teleri (the ones in Aman are I think what we should focus on): Olwë, seafaring
Sindar: Elwë/Thingol and all the other Teleri that left the journey after reaching Beleriand, forest-ness

That should help distinguish them.

This is the current standing:

I have incorporated your ideas (T F & Berenthor) and my own:


Noldor: House of Fëanor: Curufin (Son of Fëanor, Father of Celebrimbor - Thus a direct line of Leadership)
Teleri: Lenwë (Ruled during the time of Elu Thingols' Disappearance)
Rohirrim: Perhaps Helm Hammerhand could be a Captain and Éomer could be the third Leader.

I left the Dunlendings, Easterlings and Haradrim alone so we have names for Captains & Heroes.

Leader List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

EDIT: I was working on this as you posted yours T F.

Well, these are the ideas at the moment. If anyone has any further suggestions (including T F :D), please post away!

I still gots moar ^_^ Though not many.

My only suggestions right now are to replace Círdan with Elrond for the Sindar, and either Lenwë or Celeborn with Círdan for the Teleri (since Círdan was more ship-y than Celeborn, and that's what we're going for with the Teleri). I'm also fine with just Olwë and Círdan for the Teleri too (2 total Telerin leaders).

I would also like some further input from other people.

Elrond however was of Noldor descent as well as Sindar. Directly of Fingolfin. He was also the Herald of Gil-Galad. If we put him in, Where?

I think that Elrond might be a better "Captain" for the House of Fingolfin. That is an idea that I have had for a while. Glorfindel could be a Hero. Perhaps they could be switched around however. That can be discussed at a later time though if Elrond is not chosen as a leader.

Yeesh, I go to sleep for one night, and when I wake up we've got a complete leaderlist :D

I agree putting in Elrond as leader is problematic because of his heritage (IIRC he's decendant from all to them :lol: )

I think I like Cirdan beter for the Teleri then for the Sindar. Also, no point in having three leaders everywhere, having both Teleri and Sindar with two leaves us with 13 leaders for the Quendi, 12 good men, 5 neutral, 4 evil (and 2 shadow of course).

Agreed on that, not every civ has to have three. About Elrond, I wouldn't know what is best. Maybe as a hero he would be better suited. Glorfindel could go to the other house of Noldor as a hero, but I'm not sure from which house he descended, I'll have to check that. Cirdan would be my choice for the Teleri. I would remove Galadriel from the Vanyar and leave them at two. Maybe we can differentiate them more by making them more of a "magic" civ, but not as much as in FFH2 of course. Maybe something like they have the grace of the Valar on their side. Just thinking :). I like the rest of the list. The only sad part is that the few leaders of the entire Kingdom of men (Aragorn II and to a lesser extend Isildur and Elendil) can only be chosen by one of the two civs. If we have to split them then the split we have now is definetly the best choice though.

Some other thoughts: for Numenor, instead of Tar-Palantir, use Tar-Minastir:
"11. Tar-Minastir 1731 – 1869 With High King Gil-galad defeats Sauron and ends the War of the Elves and Sauron"
"24. Tar-Palantir 3177 – 3255 Attempted to bring back the old traditions of Númenor"

That looks more impressive on the side of Tar-Minastir. I can't recall all of those Tar-s and don't have access to my books, so I can't look them up myself.

I just read a part of the Silmarillion again the last few days so it is still fresh. Plus a good site is tolkiengateway.net. It has a lot of info and is wiki style ;).

Some other comments I found out: First of all, were will we place the Haven of Umbar? I would suggest with the Haradrim but I'm not sure. Also, apparently the haradrim are the Mumakil and horseman, while the easterlings were employed also chariots instead of horseman so maybe they can have that as a UU. Here are two articles about the easterlings (apparantly a lot of tribes combined) and the haradrim:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Easterlings
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Easterlings

Depending on were we put Umbar, we can have two leaders for them extra, namely two black numenoreans who ruled from Umbar over the Haradrim: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Haven_of_Umbar. They were called Herumor and Fuinur.

Herumor is allready on the list, adding Fuinur as another is good though, we are a little light on evil leaders.

Oh yeah, I found Fuinur there too and forgot to suggest him.
Umbar definitely is going to be a part of Harad.

Tar-Minastir works fine too. I was just thinking Tar-Palantir because he was the last good king of Númenor, but Minastir is a good choice if we want to balance Númenor's leaders by historical alignment - Elros is good, Minastir is neutral (since he wasn't really associated with any of that), and Ar-Pharazôn is evil.

About Elrond, I think he's OK as a Sindarin leader not because of heritage but because by the time he's really important most of the elves still in Middle-earth (including the ones he's in charge of) are all Sindar. I'm fine with him as a Noldorin Captain too though (and having 2 Sindar leaders is OK with me). Dropping Galadriel is fine too.

I think that Umbar should go with the Haradrim. Gondor must take it back if they want it. :lol:

Also, what about my idea for Rohan? Helm as a Captain and Eomer as the third Leader.

Moved:

Cirdan (From Sindar to Teleri)

Added:

Fuinur (Haradrim)
Tar-Minastir (Numenor)
Elrond (Sindar)

Removed:

Indis (Vanyar)
Galadriel (Vanyar)
Lenwë (Teleri)
Tar-Palantir (Numenor)

Leader List: as of these changes

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Eärendur

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard, Brand

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Dwarves:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

Another Idea:

Eärnur:

He was the Steward of Angmar. The last King of Gondor, he was turned into a Wraith after losing his Battle with the Witch-King. This was we could have the Witch-King still with Mordor if we wanted. Or just for a second option for leader of Angmar.

AFAIK (and according to Tolkien Gateway (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eärnur)) Eärnur wasn't canonically turned into a Nazgûl. He just went off to fight the Witch-king and never returned. He's presented as what you describe only in LOTRO, AFAIK.
And didn't we have Aragorn as a leader for Arnor in the slot Eärnur is on the list you posted? I don't remember him coming up before. I don't think he fits as an Arnorian leader either (as important as he may have been to Arnor) since he was king of Gondor far after the kingdoms officially split. It would be like having the president of Lithuania as a leader for Poland.

Personally, I prefer Helm as as the Rohirrim Leader and Éomer as a captain or hero, since Helm actually was king when what he's most known for happened, and Éomer was most important when he was just Third Marshall of the Mark. He did become king, but after everything was already over.

I wasn't paying attention before, but didn't we agree to merge Isengard and the Dunlendings, or did I just totally miss something?

I think the Teleri are OK with dropping Celeborn and just having two leaders, since both Olwë and Círdan stand out as being seafaring leaders (and seafaring is what we're going for with the Teleri), while Celeborn really doesn't.

Finally, I think the Fëanorians should only have Fëanor as their leader. I think that they as a civ should have something special with the Sons of Fëanor, maybe (like I said before) something like the Grigori Adventurer.

Rest of the list is wonderful. ^_^

As a side note, if we're calling the Elves Quendi, then we can't forget to call the Dwarves Khazâd.

Isengard is indeed separate. We are going to give them settlements (Kuriokas? from FFH2 idea). Eomer was instrumental in the 4th age. I can understand not including him as a Leader though.

Earnur was never included on my list for a Gondorian Leader. He became a wraith under the Witch-Kings control but was not an actual Nazgul. I just thought it would be a good option for a leader for Angmar if we wanted to have the Witch-King with Mordor.

Must have missed something about Isengard, I thought they had the one city but the settlements represented the Dunlendings.

Oh, I misread Eärendur as Eärnur. IDK if he fits though, since Tolkien Gateway describes his rule as 'uneventful'. We probably want someone more important.

There is no one else, unless we make them up. Only those two are mentioned as far as I can find. It isn't a necessity, it was just an idea.

Good point, Arnor is totally boring until it splits. Maybe we can replace him with another instance of Aragorn II.

I'm not sure we should be doubling up the Leaders. But that is up to concensus. Also, should Aragorn II be renamed Elessar, or should we leave it as?

Also, offer other suggestions for Arnor. In case we don't double Aragorn II.

Random Idea: Aragorn II for Arnor, Elessar for Gondor.

Still the same person. What if both appeared in the same game?

I believe there's something you can do to avoid that, IDK. I know I've seen Decius in FFH as a leader for different civs, but I'm sure they would have kept him from appearing twice in one game.

It was just a naming suggestion, to have Aragorn as an Arnorian leader as the leader of the Rangers and Aragorn as a Gondorian leader as King of Gondor. On second thought though, total Rangers isn't what we want for Arnor, so maybe it doesn't work so well.

Keep the suggestions comming. Also, we haven't ruled it out yet. If we can limit it so that only 1 appears in any 1 games, then it wouldn't be so bad.

What about the idea of either Aragorn II or Elessar?

Current List:

Moved:

Cirdan (From Sindar to Teleri)

Added:

Fuinur (Haradrim)
Tar-Minastir (Numenor)
Elrond (Sindar)
Aragorn II/Elessar (Arnor)

Removed:

Indis (Vanyar)
Galadriel (Vanyar)
Lenwë (Teleri)
Tar-Palantir (Numenor)
Earendil (Arnor)
Brand (Northmen)

Leader List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II/Elessar

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II/Elessar

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazad:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

I can see the merits of only having Feanor as a leader for his house, though I'm not completely opposed to including others.

Here's a rule of the thumb about Arnor: If we're struggling for a third leader, drop the third leader. I would keep Aragorn II as Aragorn II not Elessar for Gondor. Though he was king in name of Arnor, by blood, and leader of the Rangers, there was not much to be king about, so I think it might be best to not keep him on that list.

About Rohirrim, keep Helm as a leader, and Eomer as a hero/captain/whatever.

I don't think another leader for Angmar is necessary, though Earnur could be a hero for them.

I have no problem with dropping Aragorn from Arnor.

I would keep Aragorn for both, since in the old days there really were seperate kings of Gondor and Arnor, there was just one high king (Elendil & Isildur). But in the reunited kingdom there really was only one (Aragorn).

So, we seem to be split on Aragorn to be included or not in both. We can leave Helm as is and have Eomer as a Captain. Sounds good.

I think perhaps we should allow Aragorn II for both Gondor & Arnor. Most of the Kings of Arnor were not of note. That is what the problem has been, not that there were not enough to choose from, because there are plenty of Kings for that.

So, barring any comments to the contrary, I think we have our leader list. The only decision left is to decide on what name to use for Aragorn II/Elessar.

So, do we name him: Aragorn II or Elessar?

Leader List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan, Celeborn

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II/Elessar

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II/Elessar

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

I think I suggested dropping Celeborn for the Teleri (since he doesn't have much to do with ships), but other than that, the list is great.

I have no preference either way with Aragorn II or Elessar. I'll suggest Aragorn II, since he's most well known as Aragorn.

I would go with Aragorn II since it is more well known. I'll try to explain why I think this is actually more accurate: When the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were founded, Elendil founded Arnor and became high king of Arnor and Elendil and Aldarion founded Gondor and became king of Gondor together. After the deaths of Elendil and Aldarion in the war, Isildur became high king of both Empires but became king of Arnor and his nephew became king of Gondor. After that the kingdoms were split. When Aragorn II became king at the end of the war of the ring, he became high king but also king of Arnor and Gondor, so he really was the only one who at the same time was king of both and it really became one kingdom with only one king. :mischief: (end rambling now, hopefully this clears it up that it is not something made up).

For the rest, it is a good list. I don't know about Celeborn and Elrond but I wouldn't know how to change it differently.

I would go with Aragorn II. Thanks for refreshing my memory about that Berenthor. I'd drop Celeborn from the Teleri, and I'm not sure about Elrond as either, though I think someone's (too lazy to look up) argument about him ruling mostly Sindar being more important then his heritage holds ground, so leave Elrond in.

I will remove Celeborn from the Teleri list.

I will update Aragorn II's listing and remove the name Elessar. We shall leave him in for both Civ's.

Unless there are any further suggestions, I think we have our Leader List: So, Finalized or not?

Leader List:

Quendi:

Noldor:

House of Fingolfin:
Leaders: Fingolfin, Finwë, Gil-Galad

House of Fëanor:
Leaders: Fëanor, Curufin, Celebrimbor

Teleri:
Leaders: Olwë, Cirdan

Sindar:
Leaders: Thranduil, Elu Thingol, Elrond

Vanyar:
Leaders: Ingwë

Good Men:

Númenor:
Leaders: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Ar-Pharazôn, Tar-Minastir

Arnor:
Leaders: Elendil, Arvedui, Aragorn II

Gondor:
Leaders: Islidur, Hyarmendacil I, Aragorn II

Edain:
Leaders: Bëor, Haleth, Halor

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
Leaders: Théoden, Éorl, Helm Hammerhand

Northmen: [Dale, Lake-Men and Beornings]
Leaders: Beorn, Bard

Dunlending:
Leaders: Freca

Isengard:
Leaders: Saruman

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
Leaders: Herumor, Fuinur

Easterling:
Leaders: Bor, Ulfang

Angmar:
Leaders: Witch-king

Shadow:

Mordor:
Leaders: Sauron

Angband:
Leaders: Morgoth

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
Leaders: Durin, Thorin Oakenshield, Dain

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
Leaders: Azaghâl, Telchar

I like the list, though there has been some talk about having only Fëanor for the house of Fëanor. I have no idea who's in favor and who's against, so maybe a vote is in order? I could go either way on this one.

Okay. 2 New Votes:

Leaders:

House of Feanor: Just use Feanor as a Leader or use all 3?

Sindar: Use Elrond as a Leader or no?

Personally, I am fine either way for both. So share your thoughts!

I actually don't have a strong opinion on the feanor leaders, but I think one of the suggestions was to use the Grigori approach from FFH2. They don't have a hero and only one leader. They receive also Great Adventurers which have the hero promotion and can be upgrade (for a fee of money) into any unittype that is available to build at that time. The suggestion was to use this approach and then make the great adventurers the sons of Feanor. I find this quite a nice idea but I can go either way. But if we go for this idea, we have to see how many names we can come up with and how many great adventurers in general you would span in a game to make sure we have enough.

I don't remember that suggestion. interesting. Would these Great Adventurers ONLY be the sons of Feanor, or is it something that would be available to ALL Civs?

No only for the house of Feanor civ. It is a system instead of a hero. If you have the time, maybe try it out with the Grigori from FFH2. We could call it "Sons of Feanor" instead of "great adventurers". It would make them different from the other civs and we don't have to choose between who we want in. But this only works if we can have enough names and I'm not sure about that.

He has 7 Sons and I can get the names of them no problem. Is that enough?

In general you get more great persone (which the great adventurers are part of) during a game than 7. We could take also grandchildren (like the guy from the rings, Celebrimbor or something). They work like great persons who are born and certain buildings provide a percentage towards that kind of people (so if you buy something that gives points for great merchant you get the percentage and it provides one depending on that).

And this would only apply to the House of Feanor, to make them Unique? If so, I will try and get a list of names and you can decide if it is large enough. So, what, no Cpatains or Heroes then? Just these Great Adventurers?

No only for the house of Feanor civ. It is a system instead of a hero. If you have the time, maybe try it out with the Grigori from FFH2. We could call it "Sons of Feanor" instead of "great adventurers". It would make them different from the other civs and we don't have to choose between who we want in. But this only works if we can have enough names and I'm not sure about that.
I'll added to my list of things I have to try in FFH :D (hopefully I'll have some time to play around with it this weekend.)


And this would only apply to the House of Feanor, to make them Unique? If so, I will try and get a list of names and you can decide if it is large enough. So, what, no Cpatains or Heroes then? Just these Great Adventurers?
He has 7 Sons and I can get the names of them no problem. Is that enough?
In general you get more great persone (which the great adventurers are part of) during a game than 7. We could take also grandchildren (like the guy from the rings, Celebrimbor or something). They work like great persons who are born and certain buildings provide a percentage towards that kind of people (so if you buy something that gives points for great merchant you get the percentage and it provides one depending on that).
I've got a genealogy lying around somewhere, though it has been a couple of years since I made it, I should be able to find it. Will search for it tomorrow, as it would help us with a lot of naming stuff.

I will hold off on updating the Leaders in case we find that we are not able to come up with enough names.

Once this topic is decided on, we will then have a finalized Leader List!

Finwë = Míriel Mahtan
| |
Fëanor = Nerdanel
|
------------------------------------------------------
| | | | | | | |
Maedhros Maglor Celegorm Caranthir Curufin Amrod Amras
|
Celebrimbor

This is what I have. Only 8 names.

That's pretty much what my genealogy shows as well. That's a bit to few if I understand correctly how that system works.

They have other father and mother names as well, that would make 22 names
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sons_of_Fëanor

Perhaps, but they are all still the same people.

We could try and create our own system. Or just allow the House of Feanor to have 1 King Unit, 1 Captain, and 6 Heroes.

We could of course just use those names.

Maedhros: Nelyafinwë & Maitimo

Maglor: Canafinwë & Makalaurë

Celegorm: Turcafinwë & Tyelkormo

Caranthir: Morifinwë & Carnistir

Curufin: Curufinwë & Atarinkë

Amrod: Pityafinwë & Ambarussa

Amras: Telufinwë, Ambarussa, Umbarto & Ambarto

If we go with the above names, then that gives us: 22 Names (As Sengir Stated), 23 if we go with Ambarussa I & II.

This does not include Celebrimbor (Telperinquar) as he was a "Grandson" of Feanor and not one of the "Sons" of Feanor, though he could be included and we could call it the Decendants of Feanor or something like that. This would give us up to 25 names.

Also a question. What do these special Great People do?

In essense these great people only have the hero promo (+1xp slowly up to 100xp like all the heroes). Furthermore, the only other thing they can do is transform into a "normal buildable" (axeman, spearman, chariot, archer, horseman, adept, etc. in FFH) by paying an upgrade fee like you would pay if you upgrade for example a warrior to an axeman. The added advantage is off course that it has the hero promotion (unlocking specific promo's and the +1xp without combat). This civ will than have no hero unit but I would keep the captain units (depending on if we give them names I think also). The king unit is also still there.

Something else I came across, in FFH2 there is a sort of king unit in the game. For the mercurians and infernals, there is a unit of the leader which you get when starting and also when that one dies, you loose leadertraits (or parts of them or something). It might actually be pretty cool to use a similar thing (although I don't like losing all traits)

Could we limit it to the 7 Sons instead of having an unlimited number of them? That would be perfect.

I think the suggestion was mine, and I've played Grigori before (they're fun, but not as fun as Kuriotates).

In FFH, Adventurers are born like Great People but can upgrade to any infantry unit (warrior path, archer path or mage path). They start with the gradual XP gain and the Hero promotion. If you can get a Great Adventurer soon, you can just upgrade them to a warrior and fort them and after a while they'll have Combat V and Heroic Strength II, and you can still upgrade them all the way up to Phalanx or Paladin when you get that ability.

That's essentially my vision for the Sons of Fëanor, depending on how the promotion system works out. The names are fine too, though we may not need too many since you would still be able to get non-Adventurer (or Son) Great People along with Adventurers (or Sons).

Plh, ninja-ed! And limiting sounds good too, you just get other Great People instead.

It does sound interesting. It woiuld be even more Unique if we could limit it to the 7 Sons.

EDIT: Removed the "Oath of Feanor" Idea because of the Item discussion.

I'm not sure they should be unavailable before the Oath of Fëanor project, since GPs are slow enough to get. I like the idea of an Oath of Fëanor project, but then again, most of what I can think up for it to do is essentially every idea I have to differentiate the Fëanorians from the rest of the Noldor (stuff like a drive to obtain the Silmarilli for the AI).

Speaking of Silmarilli, we might want a discussion thread about Items. I've got some ideas for them.

I believe that topic has come up as a Quest. Perhaps this is one you bring up in that "Other" Forum!

Something else I came across, in FFH2 there is a sort of king unit in the game. For the mercurians and infernals, there is a unit of the leader which you get when starting and also when that one dies, you loose leadertraits (or parts of them or something). It might actually be pretty cool to use a similar thing (although I don't like losing all traits)

In regard to this, (thomas and/or Elda also brought this up with me) perhaps what we could do is to allow a Civ whos King Unit Dies to "Build" another. It would be a very expensive process. You would then be able to choose 1 of the Remaining Leaders and gain the use of their Traits.

In the Case of those with only 1 Leader, perhaps (not sure if this can be done or not) we could make it so that you could do the same thing (i.e., build a new King/Leader) but it Upgrades a Captain or Hero Unit to Leader Status and you regain the Traits of the Old King/Leader. If that cannot be done, perhaps you get a standard "Generic Trait" that we could come up with if no one likes the Idea of Losing your Traits permanently.

That seems like a good idea. I like it.

Notwithstanding the fact that we haven't come up with any traits yet...
I'll work on some suggestions, but I won't be able to post them until tomorrow evening, late.

We have a Trait thread. It is called Unique Powers and Civics. Here is the link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313223

I just wrote Unique Powers instead of Traits.

In regards to the Sons of Feanor discussion, we could rename it to "Oath Sworn", we could include Celebrimbor this way as well.

I checked and the xml file has 20 names for Great Adventurers. I'm not sure whether I'd like to have that many though. If we are going this way, I would suggest making the adventurers slightly stronger and leaving it at 7.

Perhaps they could have +1 or +2 to their attack and defence values. Maybe they could also have a few promotions available only to them. 1 would be +25% vs. "Secret Item" Equipped Units.

EDITED OUT OUT OF STUPIDITY

I like the immediate + to strength (1 or 2 will depend on the average strength of units throughout the game), and they should get a major bonus from being equipped with a Silmaril or Silmaril+X item.

You mentioned the "Secret Item" that we only talk about in the "Other Forum". :eek:

:P :P :P

/failure

That is a nice idea. What I didn't realize about the "king" units in FFH2 is that these are just the heroes for these civs and they only have one leader. So we still have to make it ourselves that the king unit is different per leader. As for the strength bonus and limiting them, that is a nice idea (although I would really like to have Celebrimbor in as he made the rings so is also an important figure, maybe the 8th "son"?)

Thinking of those king units dying, we can also say that when you lose your king unit, your leader never dears to leave is palace anymore and therefore you cannot build a new one, that way you don't have to lose your traits. The leader switching and the ideas for when there is only one I don't really like. It is possible however in BtS. The Revolution Mod does it.

We could put in Celebrimbor as an "8th Son", or we could leave in the Option of 2 Leaders to choose from.

Can we make it so that with the "Great Adventurers" you can only ever get 7? and thus only the sons? I really think that would make it more unique to this Mod, but it is only an idea.

I like your idea on the Leader refusing to leave the Palace anymore if you loose the King Unit and cannot build another (and thus not loose your traits).

I think we can make the great adventurers into a national unit with limit 7. But that would mean that if you have a city with only those adventurers as great person type, they will keep on not spawning anything until a slot comes available again. In cities with adventurers and something else (sage for example), they should automatically go to spawn sages. If I have the time I will run a game in FFH2 with the adventurers set to national unit of 2 and see what happens. Cities with only adventurer type GP they will definetly stall and count on into the minus (happened to me before in BtS when you play with espionage off and only have the great wall which gives a great spy, the city will keep counting into the minus until you build something which provides something else than a spy).

Any word on how this turned out for you Berenthor? We have just about finalized this list, so it would be good to know if this will work or not, or if we have to come up with a different idea.

Also, on the topic of Leaders for Feanor.

We could still have two Leaders. Feanor and Celebrimbor, if people would prefer that. This way we don't have to force Celebrimbor into the "Sons" idea, yet still have him in the game.

I still think Fëanor alone is better. I think Fëanor was way more important to the Fëanorians than Celebrimbor.

If we go with the "sons of feanor" idea (great adventurers) instead of heroes than it would be wierd to have the sons of feanor as heroes for Celebrimbor. Maybe it would be better to stick with one leader than and put him as a son. I didn't have the time to run a game this weekend. I'll try to do one this evening to see how it turns out.

Not a problem. Done then. The Leaders list is finalized and I will update the appropriate threads and 1st post of this one.

Should we call them Heirs of Fëanor then?

"Heirs of Fëanor" works, so does "Oath Sworn". Of course, this all depends on Berenthors game he is going to try to see if limiting them sorks or not. Otherwise we go back to the Captain/Hero Idea.

Okay just finished two games to make sure it was not just me. Putting them as national units does not help. They just keep being born. Maybe there is another way to do this because it would really be cool. I don't know one yet, maybe others have suggestions. The national unit really does not work.

That is too bad. Can we re-program it that say with a certain project that it only produces up to 7 of them? This way is is sort of like a Great person, but not?

I was afraid that it wouldn't work, because as far as I understand, the national unit is used up upon attaching, making room for another. I'm going to try something myself now, though I'm not quite sure whether it will work. Will report back asap. Didn't work.

Can we have a building that spawns a son every x turns (depending on gamespeed) and obsoletes after 8x+1 turns (also depending on gamespeed) so that it never spawns more then 8 units? I seem to recall a building somewhere that spawned units, can't remember where though.

That is sort of like what I was talking about, but linking it to a Project. You get 8 Units. 1 Appears immediately and 7 more appear in increments of say 10 Turns (Modified by Game Speed like Sengir mentioned). Something like that.

Sounds like a good idea, but I don't know if it is possible. Sengir, do you remember by any chance were you saw something like that?

Nope, can't remember. On second thought I it could also have been a random chance each turn instead of a fixed number of turns.

If all else fails, we can have all the sons appear at once, with a Pact of Nillhorn (sp?) kind of wonder, available only for Fëanor.

I think that it is possible in the end to mod it ourselves, though we might have to delay it to a later release. I will look into it a bit more and try to find something as a working base.

I like the slow spawning idea, though spawn times should be s p a c e d o u t fairly well. I think having them all appear at once is a bit overwhelming.

G'day guy's. I hope you don't mind me putting my two cents in.

I am really looking forward to this getting off the ground. Unfortunatly I have no skills in modding.

I noticed in the Leader lists that Finwe is of the house of Fingolfin, but in the book, he has so much love for Feanor, that he goes into exile with him, and never returns to Valinor. The Rule of the Noldor gets passed to Fingolfin because Finwe renounces his own people for not going into exile with his beloved Feanor. It just doesn't feel right seeing Finwe in the house of Fingolfin.

I think the reasoning behind putting Finwë in for Fingolfin was to have him in but have only Fëanor for his house. I do agree however that Finwë had more love for Fëanor then his other sons, so an argument can be made for not having him for Fingolfin.

What are the opinions of the others?

I completely forgot about that. I'm not sure now. We could take him out completely because I don't think we should put him with Feanor if we go with the sons idea. If we don't do that, than Feanor, Finwe and maybe Celebrimbor can go there as leaders.

I do not have a problem with the removal of Finwë from the list at this current time. Good catch on that one Superjebus.

Shall I remove Finwë then?

So sons of feanor or not? I think we should either go with all of them at once but costs quite some money to upgrade and the wonder is quite expensive or to just have one hero (who did we have again in the hero list?) and then we add Finwe and Celebrimbor to the list as leaders.

I'd say remove him, unless we decide to drop the Sons of Fëanor (then he can be a leader for the House of Fëanor), but I think we should be able to get the sons in.

@Berenthor: I know which building it was that spawned the units: Planar Gate, but it was indeed random, so it is not as good as a base as I had hoped. Still, I think it is doable.

Oh yeah I completely forgot about that building. In general the spawning is quite fast as soon as you have it depending on the AC at that time (it should be nicely spaced enough and always equally fast/slow if we fix the AC at 0 (we can calculate this in advance and tweak it)). We have to see though if it is possible to set how many units you spawn per planar gate (now that is determined by the AC). Also the planar gate now starts spawning units again after one dies (it always fills it up to the number of units it can support in total). We have to see if we can disable this so that it only spawns once.

Now that I think of it, I like this idea more and more and I think it is doable (with some effort).

If you guys think that is the best way to go and can make it work, then that is great.