To make things a little easier on us. This this thread is ONLY for the Civ/Race Tech Tree.

Please include your ideas (copy over from the other thread if you wish). I will update this first post as we go.

Quendi:

Noldor: House of Fingolfin:
- Leadership

Noldor: House of Fëanor:
- Gem Cutting

Teleri:
- Great Travels, Shipcrafting, Mariner Tradition

Sindar:
- Nature Empathy

Vanyar:
- Ancient Lore

Good Men:

Númenor:
- Advanced Constuction, Shipcrafting, Expeditionary Force, Mariner Tradition

Arnor:
- Advanced Constuction, Watchtower Construction

Gondor:
- Advanced Constuction, Multilevel Construction

Edain:
- Elf Friend

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim:
- Horse Mastery, Horse Archery, Mearas Cultivation

Northmen:
- Nature Empathy, River Working, Enhanced Trade

Dunlending:
- Mercenary Guilds (National Unit, no Civ Identification)

Isengard:
- Industry, Uruk Breeding

Evil Men:

Haradrim:
- Horse Mastery, Mumakil Training, Piracy

Easterling:
- Horse Mastery, Wainriding, Charioteering

Angmar:
- Coruption of the Dead (Barrow-Wights)

Shadow:

Mordor:
- Tyrrany, Uruk Breeding

Angband:
- Tyrrany, Elven Corruption

Khazâd:

Longbeard:
- Expert Mining, Shaft Mining, Mithril Smithing

Broadbeams & Firebeards:
- Expert Mining

Techs with Prerequisites:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Leadership:
- Requires: Quendi: Noldor: House Of Fingolfin & AGE OF THE STARS
Ancient Lore:
- Requires: Quendi: Vanyar & Writing
Elven Corruption:
- Requires: Shadow: Angband & Slavery

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:

Gem Cutting:
- Requires: Quendi: Noldor: House of Fëanor, Copperworking & Jewelry
Great Travels:
- Requires: Quendi: Teleri & FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
Nature Empathy:
- Requires: Quendi: Sindar/Northmen & FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
Elf Friend:
- Requires: Edain & Diplomacy
Tyrrany:
- Requires: Shadow Civ, Slavery & The Court

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:

Shipcrafting:
- Requires: Numenor/Quendi: Teleri, SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Advanced Constuction:
- Requries: Numenor/Arnor/Gondor & Engineering
Horse Mastery:
- Requires: Rohirrim/Easterlings/Haradrim & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
River Working:
- Requires: Northmen & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Coruption of the Dead:
- Requires: Angmar & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Expert Mining:
- Requries: Khazad & Engineering
Mithril Smithing:
- Requires: Khazad & Mithril Working
Wainriding:
- Requires: Easterling & Horse Mastery

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:

Mariner Tradition:
- Requires: Quendi: Teleri/Numenor & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Watchtower Construction:
Requries: Arnor, Advanced Construction & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Multilevel Construction:
- Requires: Gondor, Advanced Construction & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Horse Archery:
- Requries: Rohirrim, Horse Mastery & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Uruk Breeding:
- Requires: Isendgard/Shadow: Mordor & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Mumakil Training:
- Requries: Haradrim, Horse Mastery & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Shaft Mining:
- Requries: Khazad: Longbeard, Expert Mining & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Mercenary Guilds:
- Requies: Dunlending & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Piracy:
- Requires: Haradrim & Naval Tactics
Charioteering:
- Requries: Easterling & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Expeditionary Force:
- Requires: Numenor & Composed Armies
Mearas Cultivation:
- Requries: Rohirrim, Horse Mastery & Mastery of Mounted Warfare
Enhanced Trade:
- Requries: Northmen & Great Trade Routes
Industry:
- Requires: Isengard & Machines

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
NONE

No longer relevant.

What is the best known thing about the house of Fingolfin? Outliving the house of Fëanor :p ? I'm not sure that the House of Fingolfin needs a tech for its own (maybe a tech together with house of Fëanor (and Vanyar/Teleri?). If we need a tech for them, I think 'Leadership' as suggested in the other thread is a good fit.

A Tech that all Quendi get would be good to. I added Leadership to the 1st post as suggested.

Some ideas coming over from the other thread:

Advanced Constuctions (Gondor/Arnor/Numenor) --> Multilevel Construction (Gondor)
Watchtower construction (Arnor)
Advanced Sailing/Great travels (Numenor/Teleri) --> Shipcrafting (Teleri) --> Expeditianary Force/Mariner Tradition (only Numenor?) (also has prerequisites from the normal sea techs)
expert mining (both dwarves) --> Shaft mining (Longbeards)
Mithril smithing (only Longbeards)
Wainriding --> Charioteering (both only for the Easterlings) (requires Horse Mastery)
Piracy (Haradrim)
Mumakil Training (Haradrim)(requires Horse Mastery)
Horse Mastery (Rohirrim/Haradrim/Easterlings) --> Horse Archery (Rohirrim) (no other race has horse archers) --> Mearas Cultivation (needs better name) (Rohirrim)

Sounds good. Forget my earlier post, lets just do this. I'll try to keep it organized.

I have updated the first post with berenthors suggestions as well as a few of my own.

Looks good. Maybe Mordor a more "evil" tech than just the desert survival. I personnaly would rather have a tech which is more with corruption or something evil than the survival one. Maybe Dunlending something like: Mercenaries or Mercenary Guild or something like that.

I like your Dunlending one better so I'll update the list accordingly. We could have the Desert Survival (I am thinking of the Terrain here) become something for the Hell terrain that Shadow Civs have, unless they will get a bonus to use that anyway. If so, then we have to come up with something else.

EDIT: I added in the Idea of you getting National Units that are not Civ Identifiable.

Yeah that is a possibility. Maybe we should make that then more of a allignment (evil) tech or maybe even a "shadow only" (Angband, Mordor) tech. For the edain, I have no ideas yet to be honest.

That is also a nice idea (like the privateer but than on land). I know it is possible, in FFH they even have a hidden nationality promotion for it (and you can declare nationality even with you unit, although only once, can't go back). I was more thinking of a promo which gives you 2 gold per kill (the mercenary promo of FFH). Maybe a combination of the two or something. Maybe enable the promo but don't give it but enable it for units to gain it (like the pinch promo of BtS who is also not available at game start).

I like it adding an additional Promotion to the list for the Dunlendings. Maybe the 3 National Units they get will start with it however. If we do the National Unit idea. I will remove the Desert Survival Tech from Mordor.

Yeah that is a nice idea. With the national units you mean the captains? For Mordor, maybe you can make it something like barren survival or wasteland survival and give it to both Angband and Mordor?

Maybe a Tyranny tech (or something like that) is in order as well for Angband and Mordor. Remember it is not strictly necessary to have a unique tech for each civ, though I would like each civ to have at least 1 tech that not all other civs can research.

I like that idea. Maybe northmen can share in the nature empathy tech (although that would depend on what is in the tech) or maybe the Edain can. I'm not sure how to classify the Edain (like Rohirrim horselords, teleri sea, etc).

The thing what stands out about the Edain is their friendship with the elves, so maybe we should be looking in that direction?

Northmen: Maybe something trade related? I seem to remember that the people from the Long Lake were into trading, can be wrong about that though. Nature empathy would fit the Beornings part of the civ.

I like the trading idea (maybe something with extra trade route or something or an extra building that grants river trading bonusses). Also maybe something with the river (River working) and they can build a building like the levee (+1 hammer per river tile).

Sounds good, though I'm not sure whether how to implement bonusses on river trading. Extra trade route might be simpler. Levee, or something similar seems to fit as well.

Yeah that is true, lets not make it more complicated than necessary. We could call the tech River Working or Advanced River Working or something like that.

All good ideas. I am updating the list.

Yeah that is a nice idea. With the national units you mean the captains?

No, I mean specific National Units, 3 of them. They are in a mod i played, but I cannot remember which one (that really bugs me).

I added Elf Friend and Nomadic Culture for the Edain. Nomadic Culture because, except for a short time, most of their lives they were on the move.

I like those ideas. What will the techs do? Maybe elf friend can give diplo bonus to all elf civs in a game (if this is doable). What does nomadic tech provide, any ideas?

The national units you are talking about would be the three leaders of the Edain? Instead of the king and hero units they have three "king units"?

Edain Nomadic Tech - Perhaps a movement bonus to settlers and workers? Or maybe for Horse Units?

The National Units for the Dunlendings? No just limit the "Mercenaries" that the guild provides to 3. They have hidden Nationality, get bonus gold from destroying units, but cannot capture cities. That is how they worked in the one Mod I saw them in.

EDIT: I have removed the Nomadic Culture from the Edain. I think we are thinking of using something like that in the Traits, so we shouldn't be doubling up on Traits & Techs. It also just doesn't fit after some consideration.

Ah now I understand. Yes that is a good idea for the Dunlendings. For the Edain, keeping it with only the Elf friend tech is as far as I'm concerned also fine.

No longer relevant.

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You are correct. Discussion Started in the Development Forum. Please go back and delete the last few comments after the Edain discussion. I have copied our conversation over.

Lets keep at this, we are nearing the end of this list as well.

I think at least all civs have one tech associated with them. Do we actually want more? Otherwise, maybe this list is done.

The only thing I am concerned about is balance. If we feel that it is all balanced then it is a good list. I just don't want people to only play certain civs because they have more Techs available to them if you know what I mean.

We will have to make sure to give other civs something else to compensate like we are doing with the "Sons of Feanor" idea. That will compensate for some of the loss of Techs, etc.

Yeah that is true. Maybe we can make a new thread with a list of civs with all their special things (heroes, techs, civics?, UUs, UBs, civ specific wonders, etc). This will give us an overview of what each civ has.

Balance will be a lot of eyeballing untill we get out something to play and test it, so I don't think this is the time to really worry about it (just keep things normal and that should be enough).

Also, having a unique tech can be a disadvantage as well, because you have to research it and won't be able to trade it (or have very few partners to trade it with in some cases). The tech cost can be used to balance things quite a bit IMHO.

Yeah that is true. Maybe we can make a new thread with a list of civs with all their special things (heroes, techs, civics?, UUs, UBs, civ specific wonders, etc). This will give us an overview of what each civ has.

There is one, in the Development Forum. As we have finalized things it has been updated. It is the Finalized Civilization List Thread.

Oh damn I didn't think of that one, sorry. Forget my comments :crazyeye:

So then, are we calling the Civ Tech Tree completed then?

If so we need to assign the Techs their prerequisites and place them in the appropriate age.

Civ Tech Tree:

AGE OF THE STARS:
-

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:
-

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:
-

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:
-

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
-

AGE OF THE STARS:

Leadership
Ancient Lore
Elven Corruption


FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:

Gem Cutting
Great Travels
Nature Empathy
Elf Friend
Tyrrany


SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:

Shipcrafting
Advanced Constuction
Horse Mastery
River Working
Coruption of the Dead
Expert Mining
Mithril Smithing
Wainriding


THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:

Mariner Tradition
Watchtower Construction
Multilevel Construction
Horse Archery
Uruk Breeding
Mumakil Training
Shaft Mining
Mercenary Guilds
Piracy
Charioteering
Expeditionary Force
Mearas Cultivation
Enhanced Trade
Industry


FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
NONE

Also I wasn't to sure about the horse techs (including charioteering and wainriding and mumakil training. We should split them out since they should be a chain of techs. The same holds for the sea techs and for the construction techs.

Also we have to see what kind of bonusses the techs give or the things it enables:

Ship techs: shipyard (drydock kind of thing, maybe something extra), more ships available then the standard ones
Construction techs: fortified walls, stronghold, watchtower (Watchtower construction), maybe something else like units or bonusses?
Horse techs: Cavalry Training Yard, specific horse units, maybe horse related wonder, other bonusses (+1 hammer per horse resource).
Wainriding/Charioteering: chariot (one horse), war chariot (two horses)
Mining techs: +1 hammer per mine, more chance of discovering resource, maybe some wonder related to mining or mithril, maybe a unit?

I think that Charioteering should probably be available at Third Age.

I have no problem with renaming Shipcrafting to Advanced Sailing and it being the same.

I think Mercenary Guilds & Piracy should be Third Age Techs.

Wainriding should probably go down to Second Age.

Elven Corruption I was thinking as AGE OF THE STARS. It is also required to build the Orc units.

Those are my suggestions.

Agreed with above suggestions.

Merged the suggestions into the list. What do you think about the horse related techs like horse mastery, horse archery and mearas training?

Also, what are other peoples comments on the list of things the techs give?

Horse Mastery should come before Mastery of Mounted Warfare or at the same time. Horse Archery should be able to come right after Mounted Combat. I think Mearas Cultivation/Training should be available in the Third Age, otherwise Rohan doesn't get access to some of its best Units until the very end game. Though, perhaps that is good since the Tech really doesn't exist in Tolkiens world (it is a what if Tech).

I would move most of the Fourth Age techs to the third age, as the fourth age is really the endgame. Anything civs get there likely won't so much use.

I'd rather have shipcrafting then advanced sailing (not to fond of 'advanced' in a techname). Shouldn't Tyrrany be in the first age as well? Mariner Tradition might be a better fit in the Second Age.

I agree with a lot of what Sengir said there. So that Berenthoir doesn't have to go back and forth between pages (I didn't implement any changes to the list myself):

AGE OF THE STARS:

Leadership
Ancient Lore
Elven Corruption


FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:

Gem Cutting
Great Travels
Nature Empathy
Elf Friend


SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:

Shipcrafting/Advanced sailing
Advanced Constuction
Horse Mastery
River Working
Coruption of the Dead
Tyrrany
Expert Mining
Mithril Smithing
Wainriding


THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:

Mariner Tradition
Watchtower Construction
Multilevel Construction
Horse Archery
Uruk Breeding
Mumakil Training
Shaft Mining
Mercenary Guilds
Piracy
Charioteering


FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:

Expeditionary Force
Mearas Cultivation
Enhanced Trade
Industry

I'm fine with moving the 4th age techs to 3th age. Also, I agree that tyranny should be first age. Also if we agree on the name shipcrafting instead of advanced sailing we can remove that one. (I also updated the post in the previous one).

Looks good. I don't mind the name change for Shipcrafting. I will change it in the main list in the 1st post.

Now that we have them divided out, here are my suggestions for Prerequisites:

AGE OF THE STARS:

Leadership:
- Requires: Quendi: Noldor: House Of Fingolfin & AGE OF THE STARS
Ancient Lore:
- Requires: Quendi: Vanyar & Writing
Elven Corruption:
- Requires: Shadow: Angband & Slavery

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN:

Gem Cutting:
- Requires: Quendi: Noldor: House of Fëanor, Copperworking & Jewelry
Great Travels:
- Requires: Quendi: Teleri & FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
Nature Empathy:
- Requires: Quendi: Sindar/Northmen & FIRST AGE OF THE SUN
Elf Friend:
- Requires: Edain & Diplomacy
Tyrrany:
- Requires: Shadow Civ, Slavery & The Court

SECOND AGE OF THE SUN:

Shipcrafting:
- Requires: Numenor/Quendi: Teleri, SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Advanced Constuction:
- Requries: Numenor/Arnor/Gondor & Engineering
Horse Mastery:
- Requires: Rohirrim/Easterlings/Haradrim & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
River Working:
- Requires: Northmen & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Coruption of the Dead:
- Requires: Angmar & SECOND AGE OF THE SUN
Expert Mining:
- Requries: Khazad & Engineering
Mithril Smithing:
- Requires: Khazad & Mithril Working
Wainriding:
- Requires: Easterling & Horse Mastery

THIRD AGE OF THE SUN:

Mariner Tradition:
- Requires: Quendi: Teleri/Numenor & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Watchtower Construction:
Requries: Arnor, Advanced Construction & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Multilevel Construction:
- Requires: Gondor, Advanced Construction & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Horse Archery:
- Requries: Rohirrim, Horse Mastery & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Uruk Breeding:
- Requires: Isendgard/Shadow: Mordor & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Mumakil Training:
- Requries: Haradrim, Horse Mastery & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Shaft Mining:
- Requries: Khazad: Longbeard, Expert Mining & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Mercenary Guilds:
- Requies: Dunlending & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Piracy:
- Requires: Haradrim & Naval Tactics
Charioteering:
- Requries: Easterling & THIRD AGE OF THE SUN
Expeditionary Force:
- Requires: Numenor & Composed Armies
Mearas Cultivation:
- Requries: Rohirrim, Horse Mastery & Mastery of Mounted Warfare
Enhanced Trade:
- Requries: Northmen & Great Trade Routes
Industry:
- Requires: Isengard & Machines

FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN:
NONE
Once we have agreement here after discussions, we can call this finalized.

Looks fine to me. I'll see if I can put it into an image any time soon, if that is wanted.

Absolutely. If you want you can do a new one for the Core Tech Tree as well. Once we have all 3 done we can incorporate the whole thing into one.

Looks fine to me. I'll see if I can put it into an image any time soon, if that is wanted.

Agreed, looks wonderful.

Glad youlike it. We'll just wait and see now if Berenthor or anyone else has any suggestions.

I like them :). Now we have to see what each of the techs gives. Like I tried a few posts before, this is some suggestions for that:

Ship techs: shipyard (drydock kind of thing, maybe something extra), more ships available then the standard ones
Construction techs: fortified walls, stronghold, watchtower (Watchtower construction), maybe something else like units or bonusses?
Horse techs: Cavalry Training Yard, specific horse units, maybe horse related wonder, other bonusses (+1 hammer per horse resource).
Wainriding/Charioteering: chariot (one horse), war chariot (two horses)
Mining techs: +1 hammer per mine, more chance of discovering resource, maybe some wonder related to mining or mithril, maybe a unit?

I would now say that the Civ/Race Tech Tree is Finalized. I will move it appropriately.

Some good suggestions there Berenthor. I am starting a work placement today, but I will try to add some suggestions later on this afternoon or evening.