The idea was developed when talking about adding some eastern flavour to Sidar/including Khadi. The idea was dropped because of too many changes required, but asian civ could be nice addition.
Big thanks to arkham4269!

I am quite sleepy now, so will only brefly summarize cureent ideas.

Name: Dao

Civ trait: agnostic?

Leaders:
same. I want at least one for every gender:
one more commander type (would woman be right?)
the other natural philosopher/taoist/monk type

Main theme: Elemenatlism
Elemets: earth, water, air, fire, metal, aether (=mind?)
Elementals spawned the way Sheaim get additional troops, dependant on the mana owned
I do not want to limit unit building though.
Elemental promotions: a bit in line with animal totems, but without "adoption" - unit starts with affinity to one of the elements, or can acquire it in a special building (pagan temple?)

Unique Units:
Elementalist (Druid UU), but more focused on elements than on plants and animals

Unique Buildings:
Elemental temple (Pagan Temple) - elemental promotions for units build in the city, can train if unit has none

That is it for now. I am not that good in eastern lore, so any corrections and ideas welcomed :)

Oh great, just create a place for the Asian flavored Civ after I manually create one. :crazyeye:

UPDATE: Oh good, looks like you already deleted it. Thanks!

Started writing it when you did not yet create yours - only thing I can say to explain myself...
Anyway, time to bed for me. No more threads for now. ;)

Edit:
UPDATE: Oh good, looks like you already deleted it. Thanks!
That power is not given to me. Will have to wait until it dies. :mischief:
Well, unless you want to take over the creation of the civ completly, in that case it might be better to let this one die. But I hope we can work on this one together...

I am a Korean :). I can help you if you need me. Now to dig up ideas... I assume you would find ninja graphics for them right?

Ideas: what about a commander unit that can bestow special formation to units? The Chinese were well reknowned for setting troops at weird formations to draw in the enemy and quickly surround them and kill them. For what I heard, there was a general who trapped a massive enemy army by positioning rocks at an obscure formation.

Heh heh. One of the leaders should speak only in Haiku to give counter-point to Perpentach's insane rhyme game ;)


Tons of potential for an Eastern style Civ. So the main thing I would say is: Narrow your focus sufficiently that there is room for a few more eastern style Civs should it prove enjoyable enough (ie - don't take from Korean, Chinese AND Japanese and meld them all together. Choose an aspect and focus on it, ditching the "it's eastern!" mentality in favor of just following the chosen aspect once it is selected.

well we if we follow china, it could come to worship CotD

If there were to be another civ, I would want it to be more than just Asian graphics and names. One thing that may make it more unique is a focus to create specialized combat units that take much longer but are very well trained. Like Shaolin Monks or the Samurai which train their whole life for combat. War for many Asian cultures was seen as an art form, something to be mastered gracefully. There probably needs to be a lot of creative ideas to put this one together. The good thing about Mechanos and the Scions is that they are really unique. This civ should be equally unique.

One idea just to throw out there could be based of the mystical warriors in Chinese movies and Japanese Anime. Kind of a blend between fighting and magic... however, I don't know how to translate this into the game quite yet and make take some thinking.

P.S. I like what you already have! Elemental affinity like totems sound awesome.

Asia is big. I think we first need to decide wich part we're gonna focus on.

I think Japan would have my vote, followed by china

Maybe some units (unique, that is) capable of choosing an "aura" from the different element; it would be as a promotion. For example, Aura of Flames (Fire Mana) could damage attacking opponent, reduce water/ice damage; Aura of Dust (Earth Mana) could blind opponents (see the bBlind tags introduced by xienwolf). Of course, choosing one way would disable the other ways. Like the Knight Order. Moreover, the benefits would be more and more useful, rather than only obtainable at a certain level. You could choose Aura of Flames for the first prom but it would not have the same effects as, say, Aura of Flames III.

While this idea seems good (to me at least) for an elemental-based civ, I don't know if it has something of an asian civ.

As for the leader, I have at least an idea of portrait for a woman commander type. I already shown it in the previous thread: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65. Actually, it's supposed to be the result of the merging of victorian and japanese cultures. I think she looks commander and asian. It wouldn't be difficult to come with some story. I can do that (or not, that's your call Ahwaric).

Edit: Damn, I just saw what you said, Ahwaric, about "elemental promotions". I should read more carefully...

I think a civilization like Cambodia or Thailand or India would be more interesting, China is so overdone

this one looks slightly more asian:
http://koeiwarriors.co.uk/downloads/wallpapers/sw2/SamuraiWarriors2Wallpaper1024x768-19.jpg

I can also help on storywriting, perhaps make a thread for everything (note everything, not just on the asian civ) that needs text, and where anyone can submit a story/pedia entry, and ahwaric can pick what he likes

You took that pic from Dynasty warriors... Since that is more warrior type, what about the philosophical, and perhaps cunning type? Time to search the interweb...

Found it ^_^, since I have no idea how to host images, here is a url to the site I found the images Here

If you have Civ 3, check out the Civ 3 Warhammer Mod, which has several Asian-flavored civs: Nippon, Cathay, Ungols, Ind, Araby. You might find some ideas there that you like. (I recommended the Civ 3 Warhammer Mod rather than Civ 4, since the Civ 4 mod is still a work in progress, as I understand it, while the Civ 3 mod is a finished product.)

And congratulations on getting your own forum!

I like to volunteer for storywriting as well

If there were to be another civ, I would want it to be more than just Asian graphics and names. One thing that may make it more unique is a focus to create specialized combat units that take much longer but are very well trained. Like Shaolin Monks or the Samurai which train their whole life for combat. War for many Asian cultures was seen as an art form, something to be mastered gracefully. There probably needs to be a lot of creative ideas to put this one together. The good thing about Mechanos and the Scions is that they are really unique. This civ should be equally unique.

As I mentioned on the main thread, if this Civ is taken from the FF Kahdi, one needs to remember that like the Sheaim, much of their units will come through the gates.

However, if one goes with my idea of the gate creatures being tied to mana instead of buildings, they would have to be fairly 'middling' in strength since the only change in which units you'd get is which mana you have.

The problem is that because the creatures would not be tied to buildings, there would be no way to let newer units be nastier since they would require the buildings which can only be built after late game techs become available.

So instead of the Sheaim and the FF-Kadhi which would have increasingly stronger gate units, the Tetsujin (Japanese for 'philosopher') would have access to a unit stronger than an axeman/swordsman but weaker than champions with special abilities tied to what element they are.

Like I mentioned in before, these elementals could get nastier with XP but still leave the Tetsujin with no later tough units. As I suggested earlier, instead of having unlimited champions and the like, I think limiting them to 4 or so would be better. However, I agree with sputnik323 that while you wouldn't have many, they would be more specialized. Perhaps being created with the option of some of the promotions normally you could only get through some of the academies.

Plus, if this Civ is based of of the FF-Kahdi, remember that civ has some of that nastiest mages in the game since they get created with more experience. Of course one might also change that and make them more like the Scions mages in that they are better in direct combat. Yet I like the whole nasty mages with their hordes of elementals backed up by tough warrior-monks or nasty samurai heroes.

Just a reminder, while the idea is to create a Asian flavored Civ, I'm still pushing for a tweaked version of the FF-Kahdi.

Why? One, I like the back story of Kahdi (whose name will need to be changed) is tempted by power/knowledge by one of the Angels and then later in the game has to make a choice between Good and Evil (Or more to the point, knowledge or greed). That fits well with the whole Fall from Heaven theme.

Secondly, I like the mages and the gates. However I don't like the FF-Kahdi gate creatures and think more kami-flavored elementals are more interesting. Plus they don't have to be 'gates' but could be considered shrines.

As I've said before, I seem them having ashigaru spearmen for warriors, basic Asian swordsmen for the axemen/swordsmen unit, archers & longbowmen and the two basic horse units, but then have to rely mostly on their heroes, mages and elementals later in the game.

Another idea for the replacement of the later units is instead of just building one type of unit, perhaps one could have a range of units in that they could have X amount of specialty units (depending on world/map size) but they have different classes available. So you could build samurai hero, ronin hero, 'super' ninja, warrior-monk (sort of a priest/medic unit) and maybe horse-lord. So depending on your game and what you need, you could build what you want, but only so many.

Plus I'm sure certain of the above would need certain buildings to be able to be built.

Plus, there needs to be an event that creates a super ronin unit that has the animation of a ronin pushing a wooden baby carriage! :eek:

The problem is that because the creatures would not be tied to buildings, there would be no way to let newer units be nastier since they would require the buildings which can only be built after late game techs become available.

Actually, I think it would be possible to have a basic elemental for each mana-type, and then a more powerful version(s) unlocked at a certain tech. All that the unit would require would be their tech, and the specific mana-type they rely on. After all, the spawning code would have to be handled in python... Should be relatively easy to put in a check to see if you have the mana, and then another to see if you have the tech or not to determine whether or not it should spawn the advanced or basic elemental. I'd stick with just the one upgrade, though... Otherwise it could be needlessly complex. Maybe just allow them to upgrade at Sorcery, which is roughly comparable with Iron Working.

You could also base the type of unit you get off the amount of mana which you control. As well as initial stats/promotions.


Elementalism Mana Types: Grant access to specific unit lines (Air = Recon, Earth = Melee, Fire = Archery, Ice = Siege, Water = Mounted). The more you have the better the type of spawn from that set

Divination Mana Types: Grants enhancements to starting promotions for the units. (Law = Command, Life = Medic, Mind = Drill, Spirit = Combat, Sun = Sentry). Multiple copies of a mana type granting additional ranks in the promotion line (3 Sun Mana switching to Perfect Sight since Sentry III doesn't exist and each should offer at LEAST 3)

Alteration Mana Types: Grant enhancements to starting stats of the units. (Body = Defense Strength, Creation = Movement, Enchantment = Sight Range, Force = Attack Strength, Nature = Withdrawal Chance). Stacks nicer than Divination since you are making modifications to the unit directly, but doesn't offer the chance of opening up advanced promotions for your early XP spending pleasure.

Necromancy Mana Types: Modifies Spawn Appearance rules. Normal spawning is just random chance. (Chaos = chance to spawn in owned tiles when entered by an enemy unit (kinda like Treants work), Death = Chance to spawn when you kill an enemy unit, Dimensional = Chance to spawn when another gate unit spawns, Entropy = Chance to spawn when one of your units dies, Shadow = Chance to spawn when Diplomatic Relations shift (ie - Might spawn a couple stacks when war is declared)). Chances and/or quantity modified by number of the mana controlled.

Metamagic: Enhances Rate of spawn appearance (for all allowed spawn methods based on Necro Mana). Or Counts fractionally along with each other mana type, specific fraction set on a per-Mana Type basis since for some it would be overpowered to use a 2-1 exchange, and on others it would be pointless to use a 5-1 exchange.

If your heading down the agnosticism route, why not go for ancestor worship? Seen in this light, Spirit Guide seems like a fairly natural option. Their equivalent of a Monument could grant it automatically.

Some Eastern philosophies have five elements - the fifth being Void. This gives one possible source for backstory: this Civ were travellers between dimensions who were drawn to Erebus like moths to the flame, because they can sense the deaths in the forthcoming apocalypse and wish to venerate them. A world spell that feeds off this might grants all your troops +1XP per 10 AC or part thereof.

i just read a story i like :) nice one jabie

You could also base the type of unit you get off the amount of mana which you control. As well as initial stats/promotions.

That is really cool. :goodjob: Even if you just stick with 'normal' elementals, every time you play, you'd end up with different creatures. Now that is what makes games interesting!

Is there a way to randomize what starting mana you get? Either that or each of the G/N/E leaders would have different mana to start with.

I like this idea even more than the 'one-step' promotion tied to a tech mentioned earlier. Plus, again, it gives the player a bit of control over the process. They still won't know what type of gate creature they are going to get, but at least they have a better idea of some of the promotions that will come with it.

While this is a kick-ass idea, it does show that these gate/shrine creatures couldn't be to powerful or they easily unbalance the game.

It also shows why this 'Tetsujin' Civ might want to be a bit expansive; getting those 'free' mana from things like the Pyre Seraphic or Mount Kashyyyk. That and building things like the Tower of Necromancy. Plus it would seem that they would really want to pursue the Tower of Mastery victory.

As for the leader, I have at least an idea of portrait for a woman commander type. I already shown it in the previous thread: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65. Actually, it's supposed to be the result of the merging of victorian and japanese cultures. I think she looks commander and asian. It wouldn't be difficult to come with some story. I can do that (or not, that's your call Ahwaric).

They only problem I have with 'posh spice' is that seem seems a bit Martial. That being said, since Ahwaric wants a G/N/E leader, she looks like she could easily fill the E role. :p

An Asian civ may be great but I wonder if can made to fit in lore wise. I have my doubts. Hope I'm wrong.

One thing that bothers me about using the FF-Kahdi and turning them into a elemental Tetsujin Civ is the back story of 'Kahdi' being tempted works fine for him if he is the only leader. But we know that Ahwaric wants a G/N/E counterparts.

Thus the 'problem' is that in base FF-Kahdi, their leader is mostly Good in that he wants to gain knowledge and use it to raise up his people. However there is a lot of arrogance and pride that may lead him to a fall. In a sense, he's sort of like Batman, willing to do things for the greater good but also refusing to let anyone else help. He has to be the one to save the day.

Anyway, the point is it is easy to have the Good leader be tricked into Evil if the player wants to go that route and I guess the Neutral leader would be the same. Yet how do you 'tempt' an evil leader into doing evil? :crazyeye: I mean what 'choice' does the leader have at that point? The only thing I can think of is the evil leader falls into the old D&D alignment of lawful evil so like Darth Vader, he wants to bring ORDER to the galaxy and isn't going to be nice about it. Like Dr. Doom, while not a nice guy, he genuinely cares for his people and while they fear him, his people go along with him.

So perhaps the Evil leader's choice wouldn't be between knowledge and greed, but between what cost the power will be. So perhaps the world spell needs to be tweaked so that if you choose the evil route, you gain more power but at the cost of perhaps having your cities get hit like a nasty version of the Calabim world spell or something that does bad things to the cities. Then you have the Evil character faced between really going with the "I will do ANYTHING to achieve my goal" and saying, "Whoa! I'm not going to destroy the village to save it!" At that point the Evil leader changes either to neutral or good. (I would think neutral)

Form a story point of view, the them of Darth Vader/Dr. Doom is a pretty good place to start. Is the Good leader Anikan "I'm a Whiner" Skywalker who starts out with a desire to help people and is seduced into evil by being led astray by his good intentions? Or is he Dr. Doom, evil and ruthless but wanting his people to reflect him (great and powerful) but when given the 'keys to the castle' as it were, realizes the price is to high.

The Neutral leader to me could be like the scientist who is interested in the 'pure' science but not really the consequences of them. So sort of like Bruce Banner who in pursuit of knowledge creates the deadly gamma bomb, perhaps at the point of choice, the Neutral leader is confronted that for everything s/he discovers, there are real consequences for Erebus. So then the leader has to take responsibility of what s/he's create (shade of Iron Man realizing what his weapons where doing) or turning their back on people, seeing them as mere lab rats in his quest for ultimate knowledge.

Lots to play with, really! :D

Sorry, don't mean to spam here, but I'm waiting for some paint to dry so I have time! :p

The main theme of the FF-Kahdi leaves the Amurites. From there we can go.

Good Leader: Feels stifled by the Amurites and perhaps feels they don't see the dangers of Erebus that he can save them from. (Again the Good leader seems to beg to have the arrogant/prideful problem). Angel shows up and says, "You're right to see the danger and I can help you. Go forth and found your own people and you can be the Savior!" So off s/he goes.

Neutral Leader: Similar to the above, but if we go with the idea I put forth in the above post, perhaps in his search for 'ultimate knowledge' he goes past ethical limits. He's not evil, he just totally either doesn't think about the moral issues or just believes that the greater good requires some sacrifices. Not a 'mad' scientist but just one that is dedicated to the quest. The Amurites, however, don't take kindly to his experiments and boot him. Up shows the Angel and gives him the pitch. So off s/he goes.

Evil Leader: Feels the Amurite leadership is failing to fully step-up to the example of Kyrollin (sp) and feels that unless 'some omelettes are broken to make eggs' the Amurites will fall. The Amurite council disagrees and banish him after a failed coup attempt or something. Up pops the Angel saying, "They don't understand what needs to be done to save your people. Only you can save them...but not here. I will help you." So off s/he goes.

So what happens is the leader goes off and finds this remote group of people that survived the Age of Winter/Ice through their connection to of the divine in everything (kami) which they get through intense study, meditation, and a physical regime.

The Good leader will be like, "Great! A people steeped in magic, lore and duty! I couldn't ask for better!"

The Neutral leader will be like, "Great! A people in tune with knowledge as well as a path not taken by the others. What a great opportunity to learn!"

The Evil Leader will be like, "Great! A people who understand disciple and duty and who push themselves to achieve that goal! With me as their leader, I will save all of Erebus."

So to me, the Good leader wants to gain magical knowledge and build up his people because he feels that they will be the bulwark against evil and that 'shining city on the hill' that will light the way. I'm thinking that this leader would be something like Charismatic/Creative. For mana, Body, Earth, Life.

The Neutral leader mostly wants to be left alone to further the pursuit of knowledge but will aggressively pursue what he desires for his studies (like mana nodes or unique sites that provide mana). I'm thinking Philosophical/Defender with Mind, Nature and Enchantment for mana.

The Evil Leader wants to bring Order to Chaos and feels that only S/He can do it so will do it by force if needed. Perhaps Expansive/Charismatic with Spirit, Fire, Law

One thing that bothers me about using the FF-Kahdi and turning them into a elemental Tetsujin Civ is the back story of 'Kahdi' being tempted works fine for him if he is the only leader. But we know that Ahwaric wants a G/N/E counterparts.
Do I? ;)
First of all, I want to drop all ties to Khadi. It is just limiting factor, and I prefer a fresh start. And I think I have quite different view on them...
For me, they are mostly neutral, with close ties to nature. They know gods, but their worship is more primal i nateure, with ties to nature and elemental "gods" - just like druids are in D&D.

Second, as Xienwolf suggested, I do not want to cover all asian civs in one. So to be precise: I want to loosely base them on Taoism (mostly) and maybe zen (Chán) buddhism. So it is mostly Chinese, Nippon will have to wait.

I want to implement the "flow of the universe", balance of jin and jang and elements. This may as well include some shamanism/lamaism influences, so ancestor spirits are ok. Just another kind of spirits.
I do not see them as venerating apocalypse though, but rather trying to prevent it by maintaining balance.

I really like mechanics Xienwolf described. I would like it both giving new units (different kinds of elementals and spirits), but also influencing normal, living units. Maybe some phases, changing from turn to turn, with different elements dominant? And stronger effects with AC raising - both good and bad, but becoming worse as the AC increases (world out of balance).

Also, I do not want them to use magic and mana the tradfitional way. Mana will be mostly used for the above mechanics. They would not have normal mages, also priests as an agnostic civ. Instead, on top of the elemental effects they would have some kind of "druidic" casters, with selection of spells, mostly elemental in nature.

I think the current Elohim monks may end as the new civ units (really need to think of the name, but I know nothing of Chinese).
Another thing, I would not mind tossing some advanced alchemy for them - looking for philosopher's stone and elixirs of immortality...

BtW how do you like my leader portrait? It is the first one on the site where I supplied the url

You could also base the type of unit you get off the amount of mana which you control. As well as initial stats/promotions.


Elementalism Mana Types: Grant access to specific unit lines (Air = Recon, Earth = Melee, Fire = Archery, Ice = Siege, Water = Mounted). The more you have the better the type of spawn from that set

Divination Mana Types: Grants enhancements to starting promotions for the units. (Law = Command, Life = Medic, Mind = Drill, Spirit = Combat, Sun = Sentry). Multiple copies of a mana type granting additional ranks in the promotion line (3 Sun Mana switching to Perfect Sight since Sentry III doesn't exist and each should offer at LEAST 3)

Alteration Mana Types: Grant enhancements to starting stats of the units. (Body = Defense Strength, Creation = Movement, Enchantment = Sight Range, Force = Attack Strength, Nature = Withdrawal Chance). Stacks nicer than Divination since you are making modifications to the unit directly, but doesn't offer the chance of opening up advanced promotions for your early XP spending pleasure.

Necromancy Mana Types: Modifies Spawn Appearance rules. Normal spawning is just random chance. (Chaos = chance to spawn in owned tiles when entered by an enemy unit (kinda like Treants work), Death = Chance to spawn when you kill an enemy unit, Dimensional = Chance to spawn when another gate unit spawns, Entropy = Chance to spawn when one of your units dies, Shadow = Chance to spawn when Diplomatic Relations shift (ie - Might spawn a couple stacks when war is declared)). Chances and/or quantity modified by number of the mana controlled.

Metamagic: Enhances Rate of spawn appearance (for all allowed spawn methods based on Necro Mana). Or Counts fractionally along with each other mana type, specific fraction set on a per-Mana Type basis since for some it would be overpowered to use a 2-1 exchange, and on others it would be pointless to use a 5-1 exchange.

That would actually work very nicely... You'd have a natural limit to how strong they can become, but they should be able to keep up with Champions, as well as being able to be specialized towards your playstyle. Could be a pain to code though.

First of all, I want to drop all ties to Khadi.

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

I wouldn't say noone likes your ideas, but rather that starting fresh, without basing it on a different civ, opens up more options, as well as allowing more interplay between the mods... If it goes well, the civ might be included in FF, in the same way the Mazatl and the Scions were included in Orbis.

contrary to popular belief, there are not but 2 types of morality but rather 3, moral, immoral and amoral
BTW I like Xienwolf's Idea

contrary to popular belief, there are not but 2 types of morality but rather 3, moral, immoral and amoral
BTW I like Xienwolf's Idea

Actually, seeing as Amorality is defined as the LACK of morals, I'd say there are still only two actual types of morality. Of course, since morality depends on the person and society, there are really many types of moral systems.

adj: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

adj: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

You just proved my point. Something that lacks moral quality cannot then be defined as a moral system; It is without morality, and therefore separate.

BUT this is going to get off topic fast, so this is my last reply on morality... Don't want to hijack the thread. :lol:

good choice, I agree

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.
(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

I think many people like your ideas... I have proposed many ideas on a lot of forums, some get in and some don't. The whole concept of these forums is to brainstorm and generate ideas. Sometimes the best ideas are built off of something that is isn't used but gets creative juices flowing. (or hearing others' views showing that some ideas are better left out)

If you want to make specific changes than you will probably need to learn code and make your own mod.

@Ahwaric - zen doesn't exclude Nihon. Japan is mostly Buddhist and in many ways it was more integrated into their cultural systems than it was in China. But that is neither here nor there if you want to focus on China...
One aspect of eastern thinking of war I would like to include in this civ is using your opponents force or strength against them. like an ability of a monk (or hero) type unit that gets stronger against a stronger opponent. So if fighting a weak unit, they keep balance and are weak. But facing a hero, they become strong (if just a non hero unit then it probably should be capped somehow). Another thing if maybe not based on strength it could work on first strikes (or both). The more first strikes the opponent has the more strength increases. Don't know if this would be too difficult to code or not. Usually my ideas are :p

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

This is simply not true. I think plenty of your ideas got into/influernced Orbis.
Even the idea of Asian civ came from our discussion.

But ask yourself a question, what do we get from calling them Khadi? We change a lot: flavour, creatures summoned, background...
I think we should avoid such things for two reasons:

the original creator intended tham as a civ they are. now we come and change everything except name and some minor things (yeah, I would call mage xp and such a minor thing)
confusion for the players - they play Khadi in FF and then they decide to try them in Orbis. And it is like playing completly different civ. For me, borderline is what I have done to Mazatl and Scions, espeically Mazatl. There are some changes especially in spells (in case of Mazatl, the world spell, as I do not like building spells for world ones), plus some changes to traits. And this alone causes a lot of confusion...
freedom of creation - what Valkrionn said

Wait, that are three reasons ;)
(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.
It is never to late to learn :) I can help you if you want to mod/add something. Just do not promise to add everything to main modmod.
Japan is mostly Buddhist and in many ways it was more integrated into their cultural systems than it was in China. But that is neither here nor there if you want to focus on China...
One aspect of eastern thinking of war I would like to include in this civ is using your opponents force or strength against them.
I agree, Zen is even most often associated with Japan even if it orginated in China. But I think there is a space for more than one civ, and I want one that focuses on Taoist thinking.
Japan one would be more Samurai/ninja thing, with highly trained, elite troops (though I do not think samurais were that much better trained than european knights, plus no one will ever convince me that katana was better than european swords or hussar sabre ;) )
I like the idea of strength scaling to the opponent. No idea how to implement it though.

@Seon
The picture is, well, bright. I am not sure it fits other leader portraits and not aeastethics I like. But well, it is supposed to be an Eastern civ, so what do I know?
I am not the best person to talk of this stuff, I just was interested in Taoism, so that one I may try to achieve...

plus some changes to traits. And this alone causes a lot of confusion...Quite confusing, yes. I was utterly surprised to see Khset adopting FoL. Also quite surprised to learn Khset's a she. But that is another thing. BTW, their new world spell is just wow to see.

The picture is, well, bright. I am not sure it fits other leader portraits and not aeastethics I like. But well, it is supposed to be an Eastern civ, so what do I know?
I am not the best person to talk of this stuff, I just was interested in Taoism, so that one I may try to achieve...Well, now that you have ruled out Japan-ish, I think my picture don't fit at all. But I found two others: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206 and http://shuangwen.deviantart.com/art/A-man-53819521; wait, here's a third : http://heise.deviantart.com/art/warrior-in-the-dark-107827289. All male. Won't be hard to find women though. Have you any idea of what kind of picture you'd like? Chinese, I got it. One good, one neutral, one evil, that's it? But more like "traditional chinese", "warlike", "fantasy"? I'm searching through a lot of art websites for my own leaders, so if I stumble upon something...

Thinking about the civ hero: I think I said it before but what about a chinese dragon? Well, whatever the model, name or the rest, I think you could make it with affinity 1 to all the elemental manas. It would start with a low strength, like 4 (which is also the number related to death iirc but that's just pure coincidence...) and gain 1 with each elemental manas... So it would have 8 with earth, fire, water and air. Could be enabled by the Elementalism tech; or by the Elemental Tower.

I personally like the second one, buy what do I know? Anyway I personally thought that Japan was more of Shintoism, but I will have to research that more carefully. Sorry you don't like my leader portrait, I don't really know that much art web-sites and that was all I could find ...:(

And on the subject of heroes, I don't really like the dragon idea, but it could work. I was more thinking of basing it on a swordsman. (Samurai, ronin, whatever Chinese warriors they call themselves (at China, they distinguished themselves by which swordsmanship they practiced)).

Will have to think about the actual effect to make sure that it isn't gamebreaking

I thought the dragon could be good because it'd add another civ which can found Cult of the Dragon. And it has something mystical that I like. Maybe it could be the physical expression of the multitude of ancients they worship. Well, that's just thoughts.

Otherwise, I have found two other pics: http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg and http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg. The second is not that asian (well, not taking the dragon in account) but it is well "elemental-ish".

Well physical manifestation of multiple ancestors work, although just not in dragon format, what about many ancestors manifesting themselves to this world by possessing a guy? That could (or at least, I think) work.

Do you guys want me to write something about what Koreans and Japanese write about Chinese fantasy lore? The most famous type of fantasy novels in korea are either held in different world with bunch of non-Asian people (similiar to Ffh, except that it somehow have some Asian characteriscs too) or one held in China's old days with bunch of swordmen

The most famous type of fantasy novels in korea are either held in different world with bunch of non-Asian peopleI suppose this also applies to manwha, so, as you mention it, I notice that in all the east-asian comics I've read (mostly manga and manhwa), the manwha are more frequently sets in another world than the manga, which are frequently sets in modern or ancient Japan. Funny. I'm not against you writing something about Chinese lore. As far as I'm concerned, I know absolutely nothing on this subject (well, except that they have dragons :p).

Well physical manifestation of multiple ancestors work, although just not in dragon format, what about many ancestors manifesting themselves to this world by possessing a guy? That could (or at least, I think) work.You really don't like my poor dragon, don't you? :p As I said, the form matters little to me; it was just one of the few chinese mythical creatures I know, so... But for a gal/guy (or anything else) possessed by/made of the spirits of ancients, it would be expected that she knows a lot. I mean, she'd have all that experience in her head, so it'd nice to have something in game to represent that.

Two pics again: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=252003 and http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=166021.

In Fantasy Chinese Lore, there usually is 3 factions. One is the Hall of Heroes or the Murim, this is comprised of many different 'guilds' of warriors with drastically different fighting style, this includes the Shaolin, the South Sea, and bunch of other things that I will not bother to mention. They are good, but they may be corrupt and arrogant, kind of like the Bannor in its fanatical devotion against evil.

The other is the Sapa (no idea how to spell it correctly, this is just the pronounciation), which is similiar to the Murim except that it is its evil counter-part. It basically means the 'faction of evil'
Most novels I read portrayed them as psychotic maniacs beyond sanity. They are Evil

The final is the Magyo (no idea how to spell it too :(), which is a mysterious faction that many people have disagreements about. Most novels I read portrayed them as good, but with some evil followers. They may take the side of evil or good based on their agenda.

These 3 factions often battle against eachother for control.

The Ying-Yen is extremely important, most warriors in novel often try to grasp only one side of it, males are easier to grasp the ying side of it, the females the yen, although all Mag-yo practices the Yen side of it. Castrated Males can also grasp the Yen side with ease, but that's the Chinese government bureaucrats during those days, so they don't really matter.

Apparently, the yen force can also reanimate dead into zombies that hop about and kill people.

Also, if you get enough ki absorbed in you (mostly via meditation, figuring out how world works via riddles left behind by their ancestors who mastered such feets, and sometimes even by drinking a herbal concoction) you can do impossible feets such as flying through air, teleporting a short distance, throwing a personal shield around you, making an aura-blade that can cut through enemies about 10 meteres away from you, and other crazy stuff.

Also, if you get enough ki absorbed in you (mostly via meditation, figuring out how world works via riddles left behind by their ancestors who mastered such feets, and sometimes even by drinking a herbal concoction) you can do impossible feets such as flying through air, teleporting a short distance, throwing a personal shield around you, making an aura-blade that can cut through enemies about 10 meteres away from you, and other crazy stuff.

This sounds like an efect which could be built upon in game.

If you replace qi with XP you could have a string of effects which burn XP in return for some kind of elemental effect. Tier 2 units could cast level 1 elemental magic at a cost of 1 XP. Tier 3 units could do the same, but also cast level 2 elemental magic for 3 XP. Tier 4 get the same powers, but can also cast level 3 elemental magic for 5 XP.

I personally like the second one, buy what do I know? Anyway I personally thought that Japan was more of Shintoism, but I will have to research that more carefully.
It is, I think it is SHinto, plus buddis, plus some elements from other religions. But I just discussed the orgins of zne buddhism.
[QUOTE=Seon;7928002]And on the subject of heroes, I don't really like the dragon idea, but it could work. I was more thinking of basing it on a swordsman.
Well, I like it. my main problem is - no art :(
Also, I see no problem when agnostic civ gets more than one hero. In fact, I think they need it.
Otherwise, I have found two other pics: http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg and http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg. The second is not that asian (well, not taking the dragon in account) but it is well "elemental-ish".
The first one is perfect. She is the kind of woman warrior picture I was looking for. And there are plenty of raw elements in the picture.
My only problem is, the picture is quite small and it might be hard to get a nice one for the leader. But I also quite like the one you posted later(woman in red dress/kimono)
I like the dragon in the second one, I think I know where will I get the icon if the hero passes :)

In Fantasy Chinese Lore, there usually is 3 factions[...]
I have learned a new thing today... Interesting... But I do not think I will use the concept.
Also, I never said I want them to have one leader for every alignment. I am fine with two neutrals.
If you replace qi with XP you could have a string of effects which burn XP in return for some kind of elemental effect. Tier 2 units could cast level 1 elemental magic at a cost of 1 XP [...]
No one likes to spend xp to get something... I simply hate it... So no xp cost

It is great that you post so many ideas - it really helps, even if I decide not to use some of them. I wish I could start working on the code. But I have an important work to be done for just after Easter (and there are financial consequences if I do not finish it by then), so I will have to wait with new stuff. But that gives a lot of time to brainstorm and think it over.

I think it is the right time to pick a name for the civ. I thought of Dao, but two word name would be better in this case. Sounds more Chinese to my ears...
So, anyone can propose something that goes well with Dao (people of Dao?), or something related to elements?

One leader - the warrior princess, just got a picture. I need one for a male, a philosopher type. She will talk citations from the Art of War ;), and the man would use Haiku, as Xienwolf said... I associate Haiku with Japan, but I hope it would be ok, and there are some haiku we can use...

But ask yourself a question, what do we get from calling them Khadi? We change a lot: flavor, creatures summoned, background...

I don't, I generally refer to them as FF-Kahdi when I'm talking about the base civ. The name I was thinking would be the Tetsujin (Japanese for Philosopher) since the focus of the people (rather than the leader) is all about the animistic/demi-Shinto belief system.

One of the reasons I keep bringing up the FF-Kahdi is because I do like the back-story to the civ. As I previously posted, even with three leaders, you can have a lot of stuff going on with them. They simply aren't just another Civ with just Asian unit graphics. First off, the type of naturalist philosophy of the East also tends to be rather pacifistic, either in India, China or in Japan. As I pointed out, that tends to make for poor game play. Even when trying to with a religious, cultural or Tower victory, the other Civs of Erebus are going to come knocking with armies. So why would a mostly pacifistic culture go martial. Sure they have their warrior monks but everyone who has watched the movies and read the manga, those "Grasshopper" monks wondering around don't WANT to fight you; they only do it if they have to.

So, my thinking is that in comes (insert appropriate name of Leader here) who finds the Tetsujin and through his/her charisma sort of inspires them...or hijacks their culture depending on the alignment. In this way, the leader is similar to Malakim, but in this case there is a sinister force at work.

Again, it can be easily dropped, but it makes the Civ more unique, still keeping it very much in the history of Erebus (the fight between Gods and their 'angelic' disciples) and also gives them a world spell that gives the potential for a lot of differences in game play depending on whether the player gives into or rejects temptation.

confusion for the players - they play Khadi in FF and then they decide to try them in Orbis.

Well since they would have a different name, I don't see the problem. Plus, on your download page, you could easily write something like, "The Tetsujin! A new Asian flavored Civ loosely based on FF Kahdi civilization but with..."

If people get confused...well at first you don't succeed, read the manual/download instructions. If that doesn't work, follow them. :evil:

I agree, Zen is even most often associated with Japan even if it orginated in China. But I think there is a space for more than one civ, and I want one that focuses on Taoist thinking.

Don't forget that Shinto is also very Japanese and as Wikipedia says: Shinto can be seen as a form of animism and may be regarded as a variant of shamanist religion. The afterlife is not a primary concern in Shinto; much more emphasis is placed on fitting into this world, instead of preparing for the next.

Shaman are traditionally see using more 'basic' elements of magic and thus would fit into more the idea that they are very in touch with the elements and the Divine in them. Plus, again it would make the Tetsujin not really an agnostic Civ, but one not really involved with the Deities that have form. Thus, going with the idea from the base FF-Kahdi, the charismatic leader would have an easier time inspiring them since they aren't looking to a God for that role.

Japan one would be more Samurai/ninja thing, with highly trained, elite troops (though I do not think samurais were that much better trained than European knights, plus no one will ever convince me that katana was better than European swords or hussar sabre ;) )

Agreed. Plus, the samurai were products of their environment and since they mostly only fought each other, their weapons matched that. When the Portuguese showed up with their sword fighting style based on swords with points, they were regarded as some nasty opponents by the Japanese because they weren't used to way of sword fighting. Plus as a long time SCA type, I've seen many a scholarly article pointing out that on soldier to soldier level, your average Viking's vikingsverd was stronger than your average Japanese katana due to how it was made.

To me, most of the 'normal' units fit fine with just a change in the animation. Ashigaru spearman for warrior, Ashigaru swordsmen for the swordsmen, Ashigaru naginata for axemen and the same for bowmen, Japanese longbowmen and horsemen.

What would be different, I think, is less of the Japanese samurai but more of the Chinese/Korean warrior monks. Guys steeped in mysticism, iron discipline and the like so they don't need weapons or armor; they are the weapon.

That being said, it does bring up the idea that perhaps we need two Civs. One would be a 'classic' Japanese Civ, steeped in the martial tradition of Bushido, with a lineage going back to before the Age of Winter. A leader and people who sort of look down on the other Civs because they lost so much during the Age of Winter and this race feels that they survived with their culture intact. Perhaps one of their civ 'powers' is they sort of get an advanced start or something to show that they managed (somehow) to keep one of their cities going through the Age of Winter. These are the guys who would be like the Chinese Emperor who referred to Queen Victoria as a mere 'barbarian queen"

Then you could have the still have Tetsujin who would rely more on their elemental troops and warrior monk heros and shaman/priests. They would be more pacifistic and geared more toward reconciliation. Of course that sort of makes them like the Elohim but I'm sure we all can come up with something better.

So if we can 'stand' another combat Civ. (:p) maybe we can kill two desires here at once. First we could have the Japanese Civ (the Senshi? Gunjin? - both mean soldier/warrior or warrior's camp) which would all be about Bushido and Daimyo's with large armies of Ashigaru with those cool flags on their backs and then the more Chinese/Tibetan/Indian Civ (the Prajari? I can't seem to find any good Chinese/Tibetan translators right now) which would be the naturalistic/shamanistic Civ using shrines to summon elementals to help their warrior-monks.

Quite confusing, yes. I was utterly surprised to see Khset adopting FoL. Also quite surprised to learn Khset's a she. But that is another thing. BTW, their new world spell is just wow to see.

Well, now that you have ruled out Japan-ish, I think my picture don't fit at all. But I found two others: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206 and http://shuangwen.deviantart.com/art/A-man-53819521; wait, here's a third : http://heise.deviantart.com/art/warrior-in-the-dark-107827289. All male. Won't be hard to find women though. Have you any idea of what kind of picture you'd like? Chinese, I got it. One good, one neutral, one evil, that's it? But more like "traditional chinese", "warlike", "fantasy"? I'm searching through a lot of art websites for my own leaders, so if I stumble upon something...

Thinking about the civ hero: I think I said it before but what about a chinese dragon? Well, whatever the model, name or the rest, I think you could make it with affinity 1 to all the elemental manas. It would start with a low strength, like 4 (which is also the number related to death iirc but that's just pure coincidence...) and gain 1 with each elemental manas... So it would have 8 with earth, fire, water and air. Could be enabled by the Elementalism tech; or by the Elemental Tower.

I like the second one. I also like the Dragon idea... For some reason, I associate Chinese dragons with water, maybe because of the way they move? If you go with the dragon idea, I'd say make it a minor dragon of Danalin that has been reawakened.

Agreed. Plus, the samurai were products of their environment and since they mostly only fought each other, their weapons matched that. When the Portuguese showed up with their sword fighting style based on swords with points, they were regarded as some nasty opponents by the Japanese because they weren't used to way of sword fighting. Plus as a long time SCA type, I've seen many a scholarly article pointing out that on soldier to soldier level, your average Viking's vikingsverd was stronger than your average Japanese katana due to how it was made.


Any style of fighting is going to be difficult to adapt to, which was part of the reason Bruce Lee tried to develop a formless style. So of course the Japanese would have some difficulty adapting to a new style. Second, Damascus steel was probably the strongest swords due to carbon nanotubes reinforcing them (something we still can't really replicate even though we can make carbon nanotubes today) which doesn't mean that the folded steal of Katanas was weak. Katanas have a very sharp point (having held a real one 700 years old) and an advantage of that design is that the type of point on a katana can penetrate plate steel. Japanese armor was way superior in mixing flexibility of movement and protection to account for that type of point.

But anyways back to the game... I am all for having more civs as long as they are unique in gameplay and fit the game (even if loosely). So making a Japanese and a Chinese style civ would be great if they were distinct enough from each other and all the other civs in GAMEPLAY, not just background story. If another civ is going to be proposed maybe another thread should be created instead of lumping 2 Asian civ possibilities here IMHO.

Japanse samurais did not use Katanas in real battle, they used spears which was more safer, and could strike at distance. Tha katana was only used in duals, aesthetics, and everyday-life (to fend off against bandits).

So making a Japanese and a Chinese style civ would be great if they were distinct enough from each other and all the other civs in GAMEPLAY, not just background story. If another civ is going to be proposed maybe another thread should be created instead of lumping 2 Asian civ possibilities here IMHO.

Well that is one of the reason I push for a Civ based on the FF-Kahdi: they're backstory of being tempted by an 'angel' which leads to a point where you choose greed/evil over knowledge/good is what makes them unique. Not their gate creatures since the Sheaim have those.

However, I do think in some respects we need two Civs. As I mentioned previously, there is a lot in 'classic' Japanese culture that many of us have sucked up via manga, anime and Akira Kurosawa movies that we want the Bushi, the ninja's and the lone hero that can kick butt. I mean look at Kill Bill: the whole scene with the Krazy 88 is a homage to all those hero's that calmly whacked all those that take them on. I've been a Lone Wolf & Cub fan since I was in my teens and that was 30 years ago!

Anyway, I think the pseudo-Kahdi Civ with gates/shrines that bring in units should be more of a Tibetan/Indian/Chinese mysticism Civ. Just thinking you can have a Asian flavored Civ and expect to make everyone happy is like thinking you can have one European flavored Civ and be happy with just France or England. Plus, it's not like we're on a time clock here. Why can't we (over time) have both? It's not like there is some governing body that will wag their finger at us for having too many Civs. Look at Rise of Mankind or Rhyse of Mankind mods; they have buckets of Civs and they are quite popular.

One question for Ahwaric, though. Any thoughts to maybe porting in the Jotnar at some point? It seems they are about to be brought into base FF. I've played them and they are an interesting race.

theres always jason engle you can use art from. he has HEAPS of asian characters.just see the links below:

http://www.jaestudio.com/portfolio-cards14.htm (either of the last two are cool)
http://www.jaestudio.com/portfolio-cards12.htm (the third one is pretty good)
http://www.jaestudio.com/portfolio-cards11.htm (i like the second one best here)
http://www.jaestudio.com/portfolio-cards16.htm (i love the first one, and the third one is pretty good too)

Me like these arts :)

I think a lot of this art is already being used in the Great People announcement pop-ups.

For example, 16 #2 is used for the Scion unit Blighter.

4 #4 is Serephner. Also I notice the 'flunky' in that background of 4, #1 has his head used for a Great General.

Actually for a Bushi type, Japanese Civ, I like 4, #1.

I think a lot of this art is already being used in the Great People announcement pop-ups.

ah i wasnt aware of this :p

Actually for a Bushi type, Japanese Civ, I like 4, #1.

i quite like that :)

A quick flick round the internet gives Tianlong as a word for Heavenly Dragon, so - and bear in mind I know no chinese - how about Dao Tianlong for "Sword of the Heavenly Dragon" ?

It might be worth looking at the Romance of the Three Kingdoms mod for anything you can use from there.

What's your plan for backstory?

dragon in chinese is 'long' and also is synonamous for emperor i belive. its prononced with a very short 'o' and lengthend 'ng'

I've been thinking of late that I think two Civs would be appropriates. For me, I'll refer to them as the Senshi for the mostly Japanese/Korean/Chinese Civ with a focus on the Bushi code as well as a lot of the classic Tokagawa Shogunate period and the Prajara (need a more Tibetan name as this is Hindi for 'priest') that will be more of the Tibetan/Indian/Chinese naturalistic philosophers with Shoalin type warrior monks.

While I love the idea of the Sensi (I want my longbowmen with flags on their backs!) my only problem is beyond the feel of the units, what would make the Sensi more unique so they just aren't a combat Civ?

Well my first idea (which I've posted) is that the Senshi's Emperor's line goes back unbroken back before the Age of Ice so they see the rest of the Civ's as mere 'barbaric upstarts' - but after reading some of the posts above, I think adding some elements of Dragons to them would also work. How did they keep their Civ alive (if only one city) through the Age of Winter? Maybe they serve/worship a dragon.

Now on a CoTD thread, I know that Kael (at least) doesn't want to see Dragons popping up all over the place. However, there is a lot of interest in it and I must say that interest in it. However, just because they are involved with dragons doesn't have to mean another HUGE dragon.

Some ideas is that you could have specialty units of dragons like those used in Naomi Novik's His Majesty's Dragon series where the dragons are 'relatively' small and carry humans. Perhaps instead of late game phalanx's and the like, they could get small dragons or drakes. Instead of War Chariots or Griffinriders, you'd get dragon flyers like in Novik's book or the any of the Pern novels. If they do get a big dragon, it should be one of the long, serpentine, wingless type Asian dragons.

Obviously the Senshi would be a big CotD Civ.

If you can get it with pinyin, I can tell you how to pronounce it (I'm studying Mandarin) BTW Dao is said in a downward tone, kinda gruff

BTW Dao is said in a downward tone, kinda gruff

One can only wonder what Homer Simpson would make of it!

If you can get it with pinyin, I can tell you how to pronounce it (I'm studying Mandarin) BTW Dao is said in a downward tone, kinda gruff

i believe 'long' uses a downward tone on the o as well.

In Dao the downward tone is on the "a"

Trad. Simp. Pinyin English
龍 龙 lóng dragon; imperial; Long (a surname)
BTW for pronunciation reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Rules_given_in_terms_of_English_pronunciati on

Guys! we are trying to create a civ here, not find out how to pronounce a name

If you go for the idea of a dragon keeping them alive, I still say one of Danalin's dragons would be best.

If you go for the idea of a dragon keeping them alive, I still say one of Danalin's dragons would be best.

Which ever is best. :D I'm not as up on the Erebus history and lore. I'm sure those of you who do know, will figure it out.

I don't want to harp on it like it's the only thing, but again, the whole "Our Empire goes back forever!" might give the Senshi a bit of flavor (even if they do end up Panderan! :eek:) in that they might start off with something like a head start. Perhaps if there is a way to do it, 1 or 2 buildings could be made available early (even if the tech isn't there to fully exploit it). Say have some sort of special supply unit (or two) that shows up after the initial city is founded that allows a choice of certain buildings.

Another thought is, if possible, maybe they get a bit of an advanced start with a certain amount of set gold and can only improve their city (roads and the like) and add a building, but no techs. Maybe they also get a extra tech. However, Chinese & Tokugawa Shogunate civilization was also rather static. So maybe they need this because they may not be a very good tech developing Civ.

Plus, just a general question: Is there a way to have 'blind' research in Civ? I always thought that this was one of the best things in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri since it was a good way to handicap the human player without having to nerf them in relation to the AI players.

I'm not sure how the AI goes after techs (I'm sure the Civ traits are involved) but I liked the SMAC way of sort of determining on a sliding scale what sort of techs you'd were hoping for. Sort of like selecting extra priests in a city so you'll get a Great Prophet but not always (by %) getting one.

Anyway, beyond the concept, it would seem that blind research would allow (if activated as a feature) could allow cultures like the Senshi to have the special Civ power of non-blind research, similar to how the alien races in SMAC:AC could pick what to research. A powerful advantage is used properly.

sounds interesting

rather than a dragon, what about a Guardian/Stone Lion?

http://afmag.net/wp-content/uploads/default//2007/03/chin-myst-anim-02-150x150.jpg

http://culture.afmag.net/chinese-mythical-animals.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_guardian_lions

would presumably mean some jazzing around with the lion unit (perhaps increase the size, changing the colour to stone)

rather than a dragon, what about a Guardian/Stone Lion?

That's a great idea! Plus it goes well with the probable artwork for the cities.

What about a giant stone dragon?

an earth dragon using that element?

in warhammer the eastern civs (cathay = china, nippon = japan) are using Jade Dogs, mythylogical guardian statues made of pure jade that guard the temples. you could use something like this along with the stone lion statue that was posted above

in warhammer the eastern civs (cathay = china, nippon = japan) are using Jade Dogs, mythylogical guardian statues made of pure jade that guard the temples. you could use something like this along with the stone lion statue that was posted above

They're possibly based on the same lore - in that wiki site it suggests that it's believed that when Stone/Guardian Lions were first made in China, the sculptors didn't actually know what a lion actually looked like so they have some features based on dogs.

The guardian lions were set at the front of palaces/temples and would be inlaid with jade/precious gems.

Would be good if graphically they appear as a pair, because apparently they always came as a male and female pair.


To stretch it further, would it be possible to have the lions appear in the graphic for the civs palace, and perhaps are "awakened" as part of a ritual? Which I guess would mean a second palace graphic for afterwards

In eastern lore, there are 4 guardians of the world which is the Phoenix, the White Tiger, the Dragon, and the giant-snake thing (what can I say? There are no reference point in the language...)

Also, in eastern fantasy lore, one can overload themself with chi to self-destruct or to wield enormous power but causing enormous injury afterword and possibly lose the ability to control chi.

I think the giant snake thing is often replaced with a turtle as well.

...and the giant-snake thing (what can I say? There are no reference point in the language...)

Jörmungandr? :p

I think the giant snake thing is often replaced with a turtle as well.

Yup, you are right

Jörmungandr?

thats nordic, were talking oriental herer :p

Shamelessly stolen from wiki :p
"Bagua (eight trigrams)

Two diagrams known as bagua (or pa kua) loom large in feng shui, and both predate their mentions in the Yijing (or I Ching). The Lo (River) Chart (Luoshu, or Later Heaven Sequence) was developed first.[33] The Luoshu and the River Chart (Hetu, or Early Heaven Sequence) are linked to astronomical events of the sixth millennium BCE, and with the Turtle Calendar from the time of Yao.[34] The Turtle Calendar of Yao (found in the Yaodian section of the Shangshu or Book of Documents) dates to 2300 BCE, plus or minus 250 years.[35]

Sources indicate that time, in the form of astronomy and calendars, is at the heart of feng shui.

In Yaodian, the cardinal directions are determined by the marker-stars of the mega-constellations known as the Four Celestial Animals.

East: the Green Dragon (Spring equinox)—Niao (Bird), α Hydrae

South: the Red Phoenix (Summer solstice)—Huo (Fire), α Scorpionis

West: the White Tiger (Autumn equinox)—Xu (Emptiness, Void), α Aquarii, β Aquarii

North: the Dark Turtle (Winter solstice)—Mao (Hair), η Tauri (the Pleiades)"
those what you talkin bout? maybe those in a ring around a modified forbiddin palace?

thats nordic, were talking oriental herer :p

I was being sarcastic. :lol:

However, He is the World Serpent so many parts of Him can be considered Asian! :p

I was being sarcastic.

:lol: shoulda used the :sarcasmalert: smiley then :p

You know, for the 'thread' that sort of started this whole Modmod page, it's funny how it just sort of got quiet.

So to sort of start up the discussion again, here is my idea of what we have so far.

1.) A Asian flavored civ based more on a Tibetan/Nepal/Indian mystic theme loosely based on the FF Kahdi where they have some sort of 'kami shrine' that calls forth medium powered beings (elementals as a place holder for now) randomly based on which mana nodes they have at the time. However, unlike the Kahdi which has no mid-level units, this civ would have a limited amount to represent warrior-monks so popular in fiction like Kung Fu! or Lone Wolf & Cub.

2.) A Asian flavored civ based on a Chinese/Japanese theme with a focus on the martial. To make them less of a retread of vanilla Civ Japanese, there is a push to perhaps make them Panderan. (Sounds good to me) Right now, while I like them because I like the theme, other than being Pandas, there hasn't been much about them to make them unique. Right now they seem a mix of Bannor martialness and Scion arrogance of being a very old culture. Beyond certain UU like the ninja replacing Assassins and the like, we still don't have a 'hook' to make this a truly unique Civ.

I thought it was decided to leave the Khadi out of it, you've been the only one talking about them at all.
Lone Wolf & Cub didn't have any warrior monks/mysticism in it really, beyond the Mu that was in the one chapter in the beginning.

I thought it was decided to leave the Khadi out of it, you've been the only one talking about them at all.
Lone Wolf & Cub didn't have any warrior monks/mysticism in it really, beyond the Mu that was in the one chapter in the beginning.

Not so. My comment about the mystic civ being 'loosely' based on the Kahdi was merely that they would have a similar idea in the planar gate. You could easily say that they have a similar mechanic to the Sheaim.

As for the warrior-monk, I was alluding to the concept of one very trained warrior capable of doing what a group of soldiers could not. As for LW&C, I would disagree since though out the entire story, Ito Ogami is all about meditation and being one with what he is. Yes, it was clearly spelled out in the chapter when he has to kill the Buddhist monk, but the "Assassins Road" he sets out on with the whole "When you meet the Buddha; kill the Buddha" idea carries throughout the chapters.

Besides, it doesn't have to be one guy. I mean the Seven Samurai kicked serious ass by themselves. My point was instead of having blocks of Heavy Infantry, this civ would have a few units made up of highly trained fighters. It is a reoccurring theme in that genre that to be a great fighter, you have to be at one with yourself and it isn't all about the martial arts; learning poetry, calligraphy and the like all help toward that goal. Hell, look at "Wax on; Wax off"

So I don't think calling them warrior-mystics is that far off.

I like the style of ultra elite troops, maybe a civic called "Paragon Virtue" they are both synonyms of perfection, giving +x experience, +x% Military Unit production, to symbolize that perfection take time to achieve? (I think we should have a column just for civ civics...)

I thought it might be helpful to lay out how Chinese and Chinese-flavored civs have been handled in some other games. (Ahwaric said he first wants to do a Chinese-flavored civ, so that's what I focused on.) Hope some of these ideas will be useful.

In Age of Empires, the Shang have the following:

a) Villagers that cost 30% less; and
b) Wall hit points doubled.

In Age of Empires II, the Chinese have the following:

a) Start with additional villagers but fewer initial resources;
b) Technologies cost less;
c) Town Centers support more population;
d) Demolition ships have more hit points;
e) Unique unit is the Chu Ko Nu (fast-firing crossbowman); and
f) Unique technology is Rocketry, increasing the pierce attack of Chu Ko Nu and scorpions.

In Rise of Nations, the Chinese have the following:

a) Science research is cheaper;
b) Certain upgrades (Medicine, Herbal Lore, and Pharmaceutical) are free;
c) Non-military units (Citizens, Caravans, and Merchants) are created instantly;
d) All cities start out as Large Cities; and
e) A line of unique units that begins with Fire Lances and upgrades to Heavy Fire Lances, Manchu Musketeers, Manchu Riflemen, and Manchu Infantry.

Age of Empires III I haven’t played much, and have never played the Asian Dynasties expansion, so I’m working from the manual, which says that the hallmarks of the in-game Chinese are an advanced knowledge of gunpowder and a well-organized military. Some specifics:

a) Villages provide more population than a House and can garrison villagers and fatten livestock;
b) Gets siege earlier than all other civilizations;
c) Unique units are Chu Ko Nu, Qiang Pikeman, Arquebusier, Changdao Swordsman, Steppe Rider, Keshik, Iron Flail, Meteor Hammer, Flamethrower, Hand Mortar, and Flying Crow;
d) Armies train in groups of mixed units called Banner Armies.

In Civ 3, as many of you know, the Chinese UU is the Rider (replacing the Knight), and the civ traits are Militaristic and Industrious.

In the Civ 3 Warhammer mod, the Chinese-flavored Civ is called Cathay:
a) Civ traits are Industrious and Commercial.
b) Their UUs include the Stone Crossbowman (upgrades to Chu Ko Nu) and the Rider (upgrades to Heavy Rider).
c) Also, there are some units that are available only to Cathay and the Japanese-flavored Civ, Nippon: e.g., Arquebusier, Temple Dog.
d) And there are some wonders that are buildable only by the East Asian-flavored civs – I haven’t played Orbis in a while, so I don’t know if you want to have world wonders buildable only by one or two civs, so I'm not going into that here.

In Civ 4 BtS, the Chinese UU is the Cho-Ko-Nu (replaces the Crossbow, gets 2 first strikes instead of 1 and does collateral damage), UB is the Pavilion (replaces the Theater).

And finally, in Rhye’s mod the Chinese unique power is called Myriads and allows them to train melee and gunpowder units 1.5X faster.


So, some possibilities for the Dao based on the foregoing.

Population

1) Settlers and workers cost less (straightforward, but boring); or
2) Settlers and workers produced without food (I kind of like this, would make them unique, since no other civ has a mechanic like this); or
3) New cities start out with a population of 2 (could combine this with number 2, maybe).

Technology

1) Easiest way to give the Dao a tech bonus is to make buildings like the Elder Council, Library, and Alchemy Lab cost less for them.
2) Or, you could give them a UB replacing one of the research buildings and providing additional beakers.
3) Another possibility would be to use the Pavilion UB from BtS but give it a science bonus.
4) Each city could start out with a sage specialist (would work if new cities start out with a population of 2).
5) Just thought of this: they could build Academies without needing a Great Sage (not sure what the prerequisite tech would be).

Archery and Siege

Chu Ko Nu seems like an obvious UU for a Chinese-flavored civ. Could give all their archery units Barrage I, in addition.

I don’t know if/how you might want to reflect gunpowder or siege abilities:

-- Maybe giving their archery units Barrage I would suffice for their Arquebusiers;
-- And perhaps allowing them to build Catapults and Cannon earlier than other civs;
-- Maybe have gunpowder revealed to them by an earlier tech, if that’s possible;
-- Or have their gunpowder units cost less.


Anyway, just some thoughts for people to consider.

Well another possibility is to also use the Korean Hwacha. Too good of a unit to pass up and besides, its a UU that already exists and gives good flavor.

...besides it was featured on Mythbusters and passed. What's not to like? :goodjob:

Hwacha would only be available after gunpowder, right?

@arkham4269:

I focused on Chinese because Ahwaric had written that that's what he's thinking. I don't know if he's thinking of separate Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Mongol-flavored civs, or if he's going to do a single East Asian-flavored civ combining aspects of each. If it's the former, then the Hwacha should go with the Korean-flavored civ; if the latter, then the Hwacha can be used together with the Chu-Ko-Nu and other units like the Samurai, Keshik, Mangudai,etc.

I focused on Chinese because Ahwaric had written that that's what he's thinking. I don't know if he's thinking of separate Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Mongol-flavored civs, or if he's going to do a single East Asian-flavored civ combining aspects of each. If it's the former, then the Hwacha should go with the Korean-flavored civ; if the latter, then the Hwacha can be used together with the Chu-Ko-Nu and other units like the Samurai, Keshik, Mangudai,etc.

Well I'm thinking that there is enough similarities in the Chinese/Korean/Japanese to merit one Civ as opposed to the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian civ. Not trying to insult those cultures but if you think about it, there isn't that much MAJOR difference between France/Spain/England either when looking at 'gross' difference that one sees in FfH civs.

Personally I think the Hwacha takes the place of the canon. It doesn't even need to be that much different other than I think it would be more of an anti-personnel than a siege weapon.

As for a Mongol civ, why bother? We already have the Hippus.

Hwacha would only be available after gunpowder, right?

Certainly. Like I said, it would merely be a replacement for the canon which is available with the discovery of blasting powder.

And it will have longer range and more damage (flesh<arrows) but less collateral danage and less powerful err... I forgot the term, but anti-fortification (stone>arrows).

So... It will be similiar to Ballista?

And it will have longer range and more damage (flesh<arrows) but less collateral danage and less powerful err... I forgot the term, but anti-fortification (stone>arrows).

So... It will be similiar to Ballista?

Hmmm, after watching a demonstration of a Hwacha built to specs on Mythbusters, I'd say the range is similar to that of a canon. The difference is that a battery of canons can only hit so many people, even with a grazing, bouncing shot. (Obviously the defensive fire of canons using canister/grape shot is a whole different story) whereas a battery of hwachas (each firing 100 arrows at a time) would really impact on your typical tight formation of infantry. Wikipedia says they were mainly used defensively and in naval engagements. Perhaps if the civ used Junks and the like, the animation could be changes to show a shower of missiles rather than trading canon broadsides.

I am a Korean and I never heard of such tales. We never put Hwacha in ships, it was simply to unwileldy and too hard to reload, if even one battery missed then the enemies would board the ships. Most ships used traditional cannons, boarding, ramming, archers, and occasionally 'flame projecting cannon'.

Hwachas were usually stationary weapons and not very important in Korean History. Most people will know about it when you ask them, but they won't know which battle it was used for, hwacha's brilliance is outshone by the Turtle Ship, which was said to be able to cast out smokescreen to blind the enemy while ramming them and firing cannons, but mostly ramming. Some sources say that it even breathed fire, but this is most likely to be an exaggeration of the fact that it burnt sulfur to produce a smokescreen.

Edit: model of the Turtle Ship

http://www.pof.usace.army.mil/sub6_korean_culture/image/Turtle%20ship.jpg

Edit 2: Can you Imagine THIS on that kind of ship?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Hwacha2.jpg/800px-Hwacha2.jpg

I am a Korean and I never heard of such tales.

Well that's what you get when you have a bunch of round-eyes doing Wikipedia. :lol:

Hwachas were usually stationary weapons and not very important in Korean History.

That doesn't matter; they're cool! :goodjob:

Most people will know about it when you ask them, but they won't know which battle it was used for, hwacha's brilliance is outshone by the Turtle Ship, which was said to be able to cast out smokescreen to blind the enemy while ramming them and firing cannons, but mostly ramming. Some sources say that it even breathed fire, but this is most likely to be an exaggeration of the fact that it burnt sulfur to produce a smokescreen.

Actually I miss the old Turtle Ship which I first saw in the old Civ III Double Your Pleasure/Rise and Rule mods that were the precursor to today's Rise of Mankind mod. Yet I don't think the Turtle ship made it to Civ IV. :(

The Turtle ship did not, I was pretty angry about the fact that they ditched Turtle Ship for a siege weapon I didn't even hear about. :(

Edit 2: Can you Imagine THIS on that kind of ship?

Actually yes I can. Watching it fire in the Mythbusters episode, all one would need is a good backstop and sand and you'd have a lot less wear and tear on the ship than canons do with their recoil.

Plus since the arrows exploded, the flames potential is pretty impressive. Don't sell you ancestors weapons short! :clap:

If my ancestors were smart enough to make the hwacha (basically meaning 'cart of flames'), they sure as heck were smart enough to try it on a ship, but they never die. The reason is because of the flame projecting cannons. These cannons not only burnt the enemy fleet, but was able to reload with extreme swiftness, ensuring a continuous barrage. Hwacha gave a devastating barrage but was one shot only in naval warfare when by the time you reloaded, you would be able to see the whites of their eyes, although not in a good sense.

Think about it this way, endorse hordes of enemies are coming and you have two choices of weapon, sniper rifle that can kill an enemy with a single shot but slow to reload and a machine gun with plenty of ammo. I would choose the machinegun despite it being inaccurate in my opinion...

Think about it this way, endorse hordes of enemies are coming and you have two choices of weapon, sniper rifle that can kill an enemy with a single shot but slow to reload and a machine gun with plenty of ammo. I would choose the machinegun despite it being inaccurate in my opinion...

Well theoretically I could see the hwacha actually coming before the canon. I mean the Chinese had fireworks long before the canon was invented.

Well I'm thinking that there is enough similarities in the Chinese/Korean/Japanese to merit one Civ as opposed to the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian civ. Not trying to insult those cultures but if you think about it, there isn't that much MAJOR difference between France/Spain/England either when looking at 'gross' difference that one sees in FfH civs.

Personally I think the Hwacha takes the place of the canon. It doesn't even need to be that much different other than I think it would be more of an anti-personnel than a siege weapon.

As for a Mongol civ, why bother? We already have the Hippus.

The Far East should be merged together, they all copied their writing system off the Chinese, and have similar cultures, between those three civs, there should be enough unique units to go around, Cho-Ko-Nu should have outrageous first strike ability but should be weakened and cheapened, Hwacha should have a big strength&no bonus versus city&move faster&bonus versus mêlée, Turtle ships should have a HUGE strength but be slower, I'll post more as I think of it

EDIT1:OMG!!!The "Hwangja", or "yellow" (hangul:황자)cannon was the smallest and the most accurate cannon, was about three feet long, and was capable of accurately delivering a cannonball up to target 1590 meters away. the bolding is mine

are we going to use junks as ship UUs? they were ocean going as early as the 2nd century? wow, I was just reading up on the Treasure Ships and some accounts say they had nine masts, four decks, were 450 by 180 feet, that is gigantic,

are we going to use junks as ship UUs? they were ocean going as early as the 2nd century? wow, I was just reading up on the Treasure Ships and some accounts say they had nine masts, four decks, were 450 by 180 feet, that is gigantic.

I would hope so. One reason I felt for some Asian Civs is most Fantasy art and graphics is very Northern European/Tolkein sort of thing. Frankly it gets boring. I mean I'm surprised Ahwaric hasn't used the Arabic Xebec in place of the Malakim Frigate.

To me, a Junk doesn't even have to be a UU; just the graphics used for the Galleon. In fact, someone with more access to Asian naval history could probably find the equivalent to the Galleass and Frigate.

I would think the Korean Turtle Ship could be the Asian version of the Mechanos Ironclad. While sources show it wasn't a an ironclad, the design of it reminds me of a 'timberclad' where the wood planking has been designed to help deflect cannonballs.

It very much was a "timberclad" however it had metal spikes on the roof

Which made traditional boarding stretegy of Japanese Navy impossible... Yes the shell and the spikes were anti-boarding weapon, so it was not much of an ironclad as the outer covering was not intended for defense against cannons

for its purpose, it was exceptionally effective

When I mentioned my idea of an elemental civilization a few days ago (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8047423&postcount=44), Ahwaric told me it would go with eastern civ. I wasn't totally convinced it would go along. I'm still not convinced. But I would like to share my ideas here...

First, there would be 4 leaders, one for each element (5 if Ice). The palace would provides 3 mana according to the leader. For example, if Leader A is Air and is played, the Palace in the capital would be 3 Air. If it was Leader B (who is Fire), it would have been 3 Fire. Every unit (that hasn't already a predefined race) would gain the {Element} Elemental upon production.

The thing is that a national wonder is available at some tech that give the possibility of using 1 {Leader} Mana in exchange to another mana that isn't {Leader} Mana. Only one of each wonder can be built in game. The point of having multiple but different elemental mana is that the "elemental" units can change their "race". They can shift to Water element and thus totally change their purpose. The point of having multiple but same mana is to enhance the power of your units, in exchange of a more rigid gameplay.

Lorewise, they would be humans "touched" by the power within the mana nodes, particularly by the elemental ones. At first, they would not have "learned" to use their powers, instead they would rather live with it. Only time, research and experience could grant them, say, a powerful promotion giving them +1 affinity for some mana.

Having written all of this, I'm still not quite sure it would fit with what has been discussed about the eastern civ. There would be no "summoning elementals" thing since they are, in a way, the elementals (btw, the summoning spells would certainly be different for them).

When I mentioned my idea of an elemental civilization a few days ago (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8047423&postcount=44), Ahwaric told me it would go with eastern civ. I wasn't totally convinced it would go along. I'm still not convinced. But I would like to share my ideas here...

Hmmm, well that certainly new. I, however, still like the idea of a T/N/I Civ heavy into mysticism that summon mid-level elementals through 'kami shrines' or something dependent on which mana nodes they have.

...since we can't have both, obviously it must be resolved. Hmmm, I guess it's time for stripped to the waist at dawn with butcher's cleavers! :D (Sorry, old, old geek joke from the Horseclan's novels)

Actually, in some respects I think this would go a long way toward making a C/K/J Civ more unique and you'd still have your nice graphics that geeks like me want along with ninjas.

Another idea is perhaps the leader changes during the game? Every 100 years the culture goes into a new season? I mean in classical paganism you have East = Air, South = Fire, West = Water and North = Earth.

So the game starts you with one (or maybe you get to pick) and then you either randomly get one every 100 years or you 'progress' through year (East/Air = Spring, South/Fire=Summer, West/Water=Autumn and North/Earth=Winter)

If you do the progression through the year, it might make some sense. Start in winter and the Earth mana will allow you to build walls for protection. Come 'Spring' you can then use your air mana to speed your ships to explore. Come 'Summer' the game is heating up and you use fire to attack your foes. Finally come Autumn, the water mana will come in handy as by this time in the game you have to cross water boundaries to get at other civs so those Water Elementals will be needed.

Obviously it is possible to hit turn 500+ so the 5th leader would have to be Spirit which to the Celts was the 5th unifying element.

Firstly what do T/N/I and C/K/J mean.
secondly, you wouldn't need a fifth element, and if your doing the 4 seasons thing then you wouldn't want 5 elements, if the game does go beyond turn 500 just have it loop, or have the whole thing be like the adaptive trait where you get to choose between them.

Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian and Chinese/Korean/Japanese, I believe.

the five elements are (element/direction/season/:
Wood/East/Spring
Fire/South/Summer
Earth/Center/Change of seasons (Every third month)
Metal/West/Autumn
Water/North/Winter

I prefer thinking about it as Air, Earth, Fire, and Water. Never got the Wood, fire, earth, metal, and water elements... although it kind of made sense in a vague kind of way.

the five elements are (element/direction/season/:
Wood/East/Spring
Fire/South/Summer
Earth/Center/Change of seasons (Every third month)
Metal/West/Autumn
Water/North/Winter

Where did you get these directions?

Chinese astrology uses those directions/elements.

Any feedback, Ahwaric? I mean, not especially on what I said (which everyone but Arkham bypassed :p) but on the whole eastern civ idea. You've been silent for a while on this thread.

I re-read it a bit (the three first pages in fact) and I think it's more akin to what I said above. I believed my idea was different but it isn't really that different after all. I'm not sure it would be what I imagined but, hey, if it doesn't please me, I know what I'll do ;)

Anyway, I really like xienwolf's idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7925841&postcount=18) but I wonder how to balance that. Since you said you don't want them to use magic as other civs do, maybe they couldn't use mana to do magic? They will resort to alchemy for that, for example. Maybe using resources for spells, instead of mana.

Look what I found http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2795 (turtle ship :))

the five elements are (element/direction/season/:
Wood/East/Spring
Fire/South/Summer
Earth/Center/Change of seasons (Every third month)
Metal/West/Autumn
Water/North/Winter

I prefer to think of wood and metal as life and death forces... Just sounds cooler! Sticking with the elemental theme there are only 4 included in elementalism tech. I think a 5th unifying (all elements in one) leader/units would be really awesome as the game progressed.

- with the introduction of this civ, I think that the mages guild building should provide the resistances to magic as a choice(free promotion) instead of through xp promotion. There are just too many good promotions to go through to ever use it except heros. Civs should only get the resistances they have access to mana. So access to fire mana would gain access to resistance to fire. Having a powerful elemental civ will actually make the resistances useful. Only one promotion should be free, all other resistances should be gained through xp promotion.

Any feedback, Ahwaric? I mean, not especially on what I said (which everyone but Arkham bypassed :p) but on the whole eastern civ idea. You've been silent for a while on this thread.

I am sorry. RL work, plus adding some things to o.23 - I wanted to add them for a long time and it takes time.

I did not abandon the idea, just sheduled it for later.
For now, I think they would less use elemental magic but rather be one with elementals - a bit like genasi. Elemental mana would grant bonuses to normal units (like xienwolf's ideas) and also some 'magic affinity' - specializing in chosen element combat style, cities different because of dedication to magic spheres...

But some extra magic power and elementals spawned in cities would be nice, too

ANyway, I did not start working yet. Will have to wait for a later 0.23 patch or .24. But want to work on them soon.

could be a good civ to integrate some type of "geomancer" unit(s) that someone was working on as a UUs.

I'd make the female leader a mischievous, aristocratic-type, and have a male general-type, and male spiritual leader-type.

I kind of hate to see another agnostic civ (that's actually not agnostic, but rather forced to utilize their own civ specific religion). If you think there's room for another (eastern) religion, why not make it, otherwise, hope you can make this (and other) civs more compatible with default religion options.

Also, kind of related, some of the pagan temple replacements (more specifically the promotions from them) really seem to pigeon hole the civs into certain paths. I'll probably look into it more, but it might just be something to consider while working on these guys.

I am sorry. RL work, plus adding some things to o.23 - I wanted to add them for a long time and it takes time.

I did not abandon the idea, just sheduled it for later.
For now, I think they would less use elemental magic but rather be one with elementals - a bit like genasi. Elemental mana would grant bonuses to normal units (like xienwolf's ideas) and also some 'magic affinity' - specializing in chosen element combat style, cities different because of dedication to magic spheres...

But some extra magic power and elementals spawned in cities would be nice, too

ANyway, I did not start working yet. Will have to wait for a later 0.23 patch or .24. But want to work on them soon.Okay. As I thought, this is more inline with my idea. I'll let you create it then. I'll create something else :p

I prefer to think of wood and metal as life and death forces... Just sounds cooler! Sticking with the elemental theme there are only 4 included in elementalism tech. I think a 5th unifying (all elements in one) leader/units would be really awesome as the game progressed.

- with the introduction of this civ, I think that the mages guild building should provide the resistances to magic as a choice(free promotion) instead of through xp promotion. There are just too many good promotions to go through to ever use it except heros. Civs should only get the resistances they have access to mana. So access to fire mana would gain access to resistance to fire. Having a powerful elemental civ will actually make the resistances useful. Only one promotion should be free, all other resistances should be gained through xp promotion.

melee line?

melee line?

@ civ king guess I dont understand your question :(



Just curious... cause I know there are lots of things going on for the next patch... Any progress on this civ? its easier to brainstorm and think of ideas when we know whats going on.

I belive Ahwaric is still working on it. BUt it won't becompleted any time soon, as with the Easter Eggs. Honestly Ahwaric, if what I requested was too hard to balance, yuo can substitute it with the rabbit of Caerbanog or Bun-Bun (in case you don't know (http://beta.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=970914) ;).

It's especially that Ahwaric is working on debugging and balancing these days. Currently, there's a big issue with minor leaders and numerous minor ones that keep him from working a new features.

@ civ king guess I dont understand your question :(



Just curious... cause I know there are lots of things going on for the next patch... Any progress on this civ? its easier to brainstorm and think of ideas when we know whats going on.

metal could be the melee line, you get access to copper, iron & mithril via that line so that could be metals job, k?

It's been a long time since I posted to this thread, but I saw the link from the 0.30 workshop thread and wanted to post a question/comment. First off, what race is the Dao going to be? There was some discussions of them being panda type critters. The reason I asked is for awhile I couldn't play Orbis for technical reasons (long story) so I ended up playing a lot of Planetfall, Dune Wars and more importantly History of the Three Kingdoms mod.

If the Dao are human, this mod has buckets (and more!) of unique unit graphics.

That and it's great general/army system has got to be one of the best additions every designed for Civ IV.

Actually, if you want Pandas there is a lot of art here... Just check the last image.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8656625&postcount=523

Actually, if you want Pandas there is a lot of art here... Just check the last image.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8656625&postcount=523

I'm not saying one way or the other; my thought was that for the ease of creating the civ, the amount of human graphics from HoTK and other mods would mean a lot of potential looks for all the units.

I'm not a graphic artist (I don't even play one on TV) so I don't know how hard it would be to take human graphics and fiddle with them to make them tubbier and panda faces.

I'm not saying one way or the other; my thought was that for the ease of creating the civ, the amount of human graphics from HoTK and other mods would mean a lot of potential looks for all the units.

I'm not a graphic artist (I don't even play one on TV) so I don't know how hard it would be to take human graphics and fiddle with them to make them tubbier and panda faces.

Really, the Pandaren art there was linked as a joke. I had started a wave (Google Wave; Quite a few of the modders are on there, Opera and Grey Fox contributed to this one; Ahwaric has access but never said anything about it. :p) about an eastern civ, used the pandas as a joke there too. Preferably I'd collaborate with Ahwaric, here. ;)

Some ideas from the wave:



Focus on the four (Five, if you count Spirit) elements. Maybe use actual Chinese elements instead of western ones?

Western Elements - Water, Air, Fire, Earth. Spirit if you want. This one gives itself to magic/spells pretty well.
Eastern Elements - Wood, Metal, Fire, Water, Earth. This one gives itself to constructs/elementals pretty well.

Focus on caste, on horoscope

Possibly using a system like this?

Possibly a religious focus... Several major religions spread out from those areas, and there are MANY famous temples.

Most Eastern religions weren't true 'Religions'; There wasn't really a god. Either Ancestor worship, or teaching you how to live, rather than getting you to believe in something greater. Maybe some national wondersor unique civics? I know there's been talk of removing unique civics entirely, but with the civic screen Xienwolf added (VERY nice, I might add) unique civics are only visible to people who can use them. Would let you add several, some in the same category and some in different categories that either work together or conflict... Better than showing it as a new religion, as this way you see it's more of a cultural thing. They can adopt religions, but their culture changes how it is followed.

High population? xD
Early access to things like Gunpowder... More science than most civs.

Some ideas from the wave:

Well I expounded quite heavily on this thread when it started. I guess my biggest questions is whether Ahwaric is thinking of one or two Eastern Civs. He seemed to favor a Tibetan/Nepalese Civ along (perhaps) with a more 'classic' Chinese/Korean/Japanese one. I'm thinking that the C/K/T one would me more heavy into combat and the high population and the T/N one would be more like the elemental one. I'm thinking by the name Dao, that he's going more for the T/N. line.

Just found something that could be easily used as an Oriental leader...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/lin-i-chen-eat-009.jpg

Just found something that could be easily used as an Oriental leader...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/Valkrionn/Civilization/lin-i-chen-eat-009.jpg

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs. ;)

While I'm not against anime style illustrations per se I am a bit wary seeing it inside Orbis. Just seems like a bad clash of styles. Granted, it might be hard to find suitable illustrations if one removes that option.

That one isn't really anime style; It's really not too far from a lot of art used in FfH, honestly. Trust me, I feel the same way... Won't use art that doesn't 'fit' with the rest.

A quick reply, I will try to post more tomorrow

In short, Dao are:

Taoist/buddhist version of chinese, rather than confucian
more chinese/tybetan than japanise/korean
rely on elementals, but have standard units, too
elements are standard ones (western, but also buddhist), not chinese ones. But I want to add some to make it more diverse
will probably be agnostic, more spiritual than religious


And yes, they will be in 0.30. Or in first big patch after it, if I will rush things.

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs. ;)
Yeah :) And as much as I like her... lungs, I do not think this picture fits - for me, it is anime.
But I have most of the pictures I need. You can check one of the Dao leaders in 0.24 P. Look for Ruolan. - I hope you like her :)
I had started a wave (Google Wave; Quite a few of the modders are on there, Opera and Grey Fox contributed to this one; Ahwaric has access but never said anything about it. :p) about an eastern civ, used the pandas as a joke there too. Preferably I'd collaborate with Ahwaric, here. ;)
I am sorry. There are so many discussions I would have to read to be up to date, and I have so little time :(
But I will try to help there, trust me.
By the way, great idea about build orders. Sorry for being silent before. I will certainly have a use for it.

She must have a beautiful singing voice; she has such healthy...lungs. ;)Yeah, she has beautiful lungs :lol:

I'm not sure I like the picture though... Same as Wauthan.

---

I'm really thinking about giving a try to designing a C/K/J eastern civ, more military oriented... Perhaps with, as arkham said, a focus on high population and also conscription. If you have any more ideas, I'd be pleased to read them ;)

(as a note to Ahwaric, I really like Ruolan :P)

I'm really thinking about giving a try to designing a C/K/J eastern civ, more military oriented... Perhaps with, as arkham said, a focus on high population and also conscription. If you have any more ideas, I'd be pleased to read them ;)

Well if you back up a bit in this thread, I discuss my views. My principle problem is that my idea for a good C/K/J theme is far to similar to the Scions. I mean one aspect of the Chinese and Japanese history is a long history along with isolationism with a 'healthy' dose of considering anyone not them to be barely above barbarian pond-scum. I originally thought they'd sort of have a trend toward few, big cities...which makes them too much like the Kuriotates.

So I'm left with why a lot of us want this sort of Civ: I think it's because we love the flags on the back of their archers! :lol: Seriously, we like the flavor of the C/K/J warriors so I guess we could focus on that. As I mentioned in the civ balancing in regards to conquest. I believe the Conquest civic could be split into Conquest, Crusade and Imperialism. Crusade is warfare for (insert your diety here) while Imperialism is expansion for economic reasons (with lots of manifest destiny thrown in) Conquest, however, I see as being conquest for the fight.

So perhaps this Asian race is inherently martial, sort of like the Klingons and Mandalorians; the fight is all. The only way to prove oneself is via combat. I'm not sure which religion would apply to them, but you could be it would be heavy with something like "don't die a straw death; better to die young in battle and go to Valhalla" sort of theme.

While the Chinese where great philosophers, scientists and the like, I think here we could take a bit from the Mongols and that since combat is all, this race (the working name I had was Senshi) would have a problem with the development of non-combat buildings or tech development. Perhaps they would have UB that would worse than the standard generic building

So they' have to do a lot with 'stealing' tech via their ninjas as well as subsuming tech when conquering others. I would think they'd have to have some sort of version of 'Conqueror/Tolerant' that would allow them to build the 'normal' version of standard buildings. So instead of their cruddy version of library, they'd be able to build regular libraries in captured cities.

Anyway, I'm just talking out of my behind at this point. However I think that a C/K/J race needs to focus on combat as their main theme. One nice thing about this race is that I think that the HoTK mod has got every possible unit graphic you'd need! :goodjob:

Okay, so... Know that I'm thinking with LENA in mind, not just Orbis.

First, I'm thinking a sort of focus on great generals (part of the militaristic orientation). So, a boost like +100%. But also a unique great general, something like a Great Shogun or whatnot (I will let names for the experts), able to be grafted to units (like a normal one) for +8XP (3 more) and perhaps a new promotion, allowing unique promotions for the unit it's attached to. Add to that new buildings to build and I think this mechanic is solid enough.

Secondly, I'd like an Emperor mechanic... Like a specialist settlable in cities granting various bonuses like +3 happiness, +4 gpp... The problem would be the AI I think, especially if we make it so if the Emperor is lost, the civ dies.

Thirdly, a thing for dragons and, of course, CotD. A third civ that could be convert to it (after Kurios and Sheaim). But I'm thinking they should get something like +100% chance that a religion spread to their cities and that even if the city already has a religion. Why? Because I view as a civilization that while united has a very renewing flow of ideas; philosophers and scientists argue a lot and are more open to new ideas. That could also be because of a more vigorous population, new generations coming faster than anywhere else...

... Fourthly, an increased growth of population. I don't know how yet; either with a special building (the reverse of the Elven Citizens building) or either with a special mechanic: -1 food needed. So instead of 3, they'd need 2. But that may be a pain to balance. The idea there would be that their body needs less food than other races' body. Although, since some other civs will share their race, that wouldn't be a unique mechanic for them (just saying; if I want to add it, I will).

(About their species: they would be of the same one as some of the new civs I'll include... not humans, but something approaching)

I'd see them with an increased techs cost due to a lack of organization of ideas. With such a boiling culture, either progress would be faster or slower because everyone is doing its own thing alone. For balance purpose, I think they should get a penalty. Plus that means we can enhance their military orientation by giving them the ability to gain techs (or science points) by capturing/razing cities.

... That's all for now, I think.

First, I'm thinking a sort of focus on great generals (part of the militaristic orientation). So, a boost like +100%. But also a unique great general, something like a Great Shogun or whatnot (I will let names for the experts), able to be grafted to units (like a normal one) for +8XP (3 more) and perhaps a new promotion, allowing unique promotions for the unit it's attached to. Add to that new buildings to build and I think this mechanic is solid enough.

I'd see them with an increased techs cost due to a lack of organization of ideas. With such a boiling culture, either progress would be faster or slower because everyone is doing its own thing alone. For balance purpose, I think they should get a penalty. Plus that means we can enhance their military orientation by giving them the ability to gain techs (or science points) by capturing/razing cities.

... That's all for now, I think.

Perhaps they might have some (more) UB that can only be built by Great Generals.

OTOH, if the HoTK general/army system gets ported in (which I think should) being able to generate more great generals would be really important since I think you'd trend to using them to create armies rather than the great general buildings. having more of them would really give them a combat boost.

Limiting their tech seems to be the best way to go, forcing them to either steal or conquer to get techs faster.

(About their species: they would be of the same one as some of the new civs I'll include... not humans, but something approaching)

Well how hard is it to take a human graphic from a mod like HoTK and fiddle with it to make it look non-human? I don't really know enough about how the graphic skins are created to know how much they can be fiddled with.

Doing a quick search for different humanoids, I think the best bet would be to make them look like the Japanese Oni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_%28folklore%29

Now I'm thinking of only taking the look, not the lore behind them. Although perhaps the original Oni where human but tricked by Agares (or someone) and became corrupted over time similar to how orcs are a corruption of elves in Tolkien. I mean during the Age of Ice, you'd have a lot of desperate people.

I'm thinking of some thing in the sense that they are 'possessed' in a symbiotic way by damned souls. Even in death, you are reborn to fight and kill another day. This merging of new souls w/damned souls results in the larger bodies, horns, fangs and red skin.

I would think this would be a race that would sort of have the opposite problem with war weariness - to much peace would cause strife.

Perhaps they might have some (more) UB that can only be built by Great Generals.Yes, that's what I had in mind actually.

OTOH, if the HoTK general/army system gets ported in (which I think should) being able to generate more great generals would be really important since I think you'd trend to using them to create armies rather than the great general buildings. having more of them would really give them a combat boost.Well, yeah, with that system it would be even better; but I fear it might be a tad hard to merge.

Limiting their tech seems to be the best way to go, forcing them to either steal or conquer to get techs faster.Well, to do both actually, since they'd be conquering AND stealing at the same time.

Well how hard is it to take a human graphic from a mod like HoTK and fiddle with it to make it look non-human? I don't really know enough about how the graphic skins are created to know how much they can be fiddled with.

Doing a quick search for different humanoids, I think the best bet would be to make them look like the Japanese Oni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_%28folklore%29

Now I'm thinking of only taking the look, not the lore behind them. Although perhaps the original Oni where human but tricked by Agares (or someone) and became corrupted over time similar to how orcs are a corruption of elves in Tolkien. I mean during the Age of Ice, you'd have a lot of desperate people.

I'm thinking of some thing in the sense that they are 'possessed' in a symbiotic way by damned souls. Even in death, you are reborn to fight and kill another day. This merging of new souls w/damned souls results in the larger bodies, horns, fangs and red skin.

I would think this would be a race that would sort of have the opposite problem with war weariness - to much peace would cause strife.No. That race has been created by another god to look like humans; but they don't possess the divine spark. They really look like humans except that they grow faster and live less long than humans. When they became aware of the other races, they began to try to fight their "curse" of dying sooner than other people; either by militaristic prowess or by truly searching immortality.

So, no possession, no corruption and not so much need to fiddle with graphics.

As for leaders, those pictures I like:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65
http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg
Perhaps: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206
(I liked this one (http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg) too but I'm thinking it should go to the Kurios)

I also have other pictures but I need to find links before I can show them :)

Decided to post some more, to say what will and what won't be Dao.

I want some imperial Chinese & Japanese influences for Dao. I have even thought of some kind of elemental samurais... ;)
In general, they will be very spiritual, with deep conections do the elements of reality. No central empire, but rather collection of small countries with many hilltop monasteries...
You get the general picture I hope - and the Dao you cen precisely describe, is not the real Dao ;)

HoTK general system
Well, yeah, with that system it would be even better; but I fear it might be a tad hard to merge.
Actually, I may end as the merging one... ;)
But not in the next two weeks - I promised myself to not even check how does it work...
As for leaders, those pictures I like:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65
http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg
Perhaps: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206
(I liked this one (http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg) too but I'm thinking it should go to the Kurios)
I also have other pictures but I need to find links before I can show them :)
I am thinking of using the second picture for the second female leader of dao - a militaristic one, fire aspect :)

for growth maybe a building that reduces the food needed to grow by 25%? for the food bar you fill to grow, it would lead to faster filling and therefore faster growth while if you changed them to need two food you would have to rebalance most of the improvements so I think my proposal would be a lesser PITA to code

for technology: NINJAS!!! :D

they need five elements:
* Wood (Chinese: 木, pinyin: mù)
* Fire (Chinese: 火, pinyin: huǒ)
* Earth (Chinese: 土, pinyin: tǔ)
* Metal (Chinese: 金, pinyin: jīn)
* Water (Chinese: 水, pinyin: shuǐ)

@Ahwaric: Sure, go ahead for the picture ;)

Do you think Dao and my idea would overlap too much? I'd like them to be different enough....

@civ_king: perhaps just a building increasing the food gained? There's nothing in the code (yet) to reduce the food needed by a percent and I think increasing the food gained would have the same effect. And I agree, your way (rather than modifying the food points per pop) would be less of a PITA.

As for ninjas, not sure yet :p

Yes, that's what I had in mind actually.

Well, yeah, with that system it would be even better; but I fear it might be a tad hard to merge.

Well, to do both actually, since they'd be conquering AND stealing at the same time.

No. That race has been created by another god to look like humans; but they don't possess the divine spark. They really look like humans except that they grow faster and live less long than humans. When they became aware of the other races, they began to try to fight their "curse" of dying sooner than other people; either by militaristic prowess or by truly searching immortality.

So, no possession, no corruption and not so much need to fiddle with graphics.

As for leaders, those pictures I like:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65
http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg
Perhaps: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206
(I liked this one (http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg) too but I'm thinking it should go to the Kurios)

I also have other pictures but I need to find links before I can show them :)



Ah, I think I may have an idea of what race you'd be using.... Rather large jump from the first group there. :lol:

Ah, I think I may have an idea of what race you'd be using.... Rather large jump from the first group there. :lol:I'm not sure I'm following you... Care to explain in MP? :p

Edit: So, yeah, you're right Valkrionn ;)

No. That race has been created by another god to look like humans; but they don't possess the divine spark. They really look like humans except that they grow faster and live less long than humans. When they became aware of the other races, they began to try to fight their "curse" of dying sooner than other people; either by militaristic prowess or by truly searching immortality.

So, no possession, no corruption and not so much need to fiddle with graphics.

(Note: The following is not said in anger; most said with a wry smile) What do you mean no? This isn't LENA, it's for Orbis. Ultimately it's Ahwaric that makes the decision.

Anyway, it was just some ideas I was throwing out. However I was thinking that another aspect in regards to the whole Nietzsche idea of "that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" This race might be very martial due to an idea that they are working toward "Ragnarök" or what ever the Erebus equivalent would be. (More on that in another post) Regardless what race (human or otherwise) perhaps the nascent Senshi (or what ever they might be called) had their main leader contacted by some God/archangel or had a serious vision of the Final Battle(tm) that would happen in the future and that the Fate of Erebus(tm) was at stake and they were the chosen instrument to win that battle.

Thus a lot of this race's combat doesn't have to be simple blood lust but the idea that they are weeding out the weak as well as toughening themselves up. In classic Norse theology, Odin would foment strife simply to cause wars so more warriors would end up in Valhalla to be available to fight in Ragnarök. This race could be under a similar sort of ideal.

This working toward the Final Battle(tm) would also explain why they aren't much into technology or other stuff. They don't see any purpose to it since the world might end so why bother with monuments and the like. They might be very much like Spartans, living a martial, harsh life with the belief that if they win the Final Battle(tm) THEN they can beat their swords into plowshares and work on the arts and sciences.

So perhaps their race could have some sort of added cost in :hammers: to many buildings and perhaps a bonus in :science: toward more of the combat techs.

Of course this would sort of screw up the idea of stealing tech (via ninjas) or via conquest because even if they could build colosseums or theaters, they wouldn't because they don't see the point.

Again, these are just some ideas to throw out as to how they came to be so combat oriented.

(Note: The following is not said in anger; most said with a wry smile) What do you mean no? This isn't LENA, it's for Orbis. Ultimately it's Ahwaric that makes the decision.

Actually, I'd like to direct your attention to a previous post by Opera. ;)

Okay, so... Know that I'm thinking with LENA in mind, not just Orbis.

Actually, I'd like to direct your attention to a previous post by Opera. ;)

That's what I get for posting while in class. :hammer2:

Sorry, sometimes in these mod forums there have been mod owners who have no tact when saying they aren't going take your idea. It can be a bit surprising considering this is all 'volunteer' you would figure people would be a bit more nice.

Personally, I like your idea. I just think Opera's 'fits' better with FfH.... But that's based on info not on the forums. :mischief:

As I've said before, people should get on #Erebus - You tend to find out some things. Including something large planned for RifE, which I'm working on atm.... :p

Personally, I like your idea. I just think Opera's 'fits' better with FfH.... But that's based on info not on the forums. :mischief:

As I've said before, people should get on #Erebus - You tend to find out some things. Including something large planned for RifE, which I'm working on atm.... :p

Well not to look like a total n00b but I have no idea what #Erebus is or how I'd get there.

However, my last idea I think has some merit because regardless of what the history of Erebis is in FfH/FF/Orbis or LENA the GAME shows a struggle that ends up generally with all the remaining Civs fighting it out. So in the GAME, there is a Final Battle(tm) so the idea that this Civ's leader was either contacted by a God/Archangel or had some prophecy of this coming battle and that set the stage to how this one group went down the Road to War as it were. This fight doesn't have to be religious (Like the Bannor's fight against evil); it could be rather humanistic in that they are fighting to save Erebus. To them they may see themselves as good, because to them, wiping out 'peacniks' like the Elohim is toughening up the survivors so that only the toughest are ready to fight in the last battle.

Personally I can see this since the transformation of Erebus to Hell via the rising AC counter represents a world-changing event that your 'average' person would rather not see as enough reason for a race to dedicate itself to fighting it.

Plus we've pointed out that historically China & Japan has seen outsiders as being mere barbarians; in this case, the race might also see themselves as being the only 'worthy' heir to Erebus.

That's what I get for posting while in class. :hammer2:

Sorry, sometimes in these mod forums there have been mod owners who have no tact when saying they aren't going take your idea. It can be a bit surprising considering this is all 'volunteer' you would figure people would be a bit more nice.Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Just is that I already have lore behind that race, which will be shared by three civs.

I like your idea of Ragnarok-thing, though. I'll think about it ;)

Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Just is that I already have lore behind that race, which will be shared by three civs.

I wasn't hurt, more surprised of the abruptness, especially in light that I didn't realize you were in "LENA" mode. :D

Well not to look like a total n00b but I have no idea what #Erebus is or how I'd get there.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328588

It's an IRC server, so a chat host basically. I tend to be on there, as does Opera, Grey Fox, and quite a few other modders/players. ;)

If you have no idea what IRC is, there's a link there which will allow you to run it in your browser.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328588

It's an IRC server, so a chat host basically. I tend to be on there, as does Opera, Grey Fox, and quite a few other modders/players. ;)

If you have no idea what IRC is, there's a link there which will allow you to run it in your browser.

Oh I know what IRC is; I studiously avoided it while in Afghanistan because I found that people using it spent all their time chatting and not enough time working. :lol: I'll check it out when I get home and have all my homework/reading done.

Well not to look like a total n00b but I have no idea what #Erebus is or how I'd get there.

However, my last idea I think has some merit because regardless of what the history of Erebis is in FfH/FF/Orbis or LENA the GAME shows a struggle that ends up generally with all the remaining Civs fighting it out. So in the GAME, there is a Final Battle(tm) so the idea that this Civ's leader was either contacted by a God/Archangel or had some prophecy of this coming battle and that set the stage to how this one group went down the Road to War as it were. This fight doesn't have to be religious (Like the Bannor's fight against evil); it could be rather humanistic in that they are fighting to save Erebus. To them they may see themselves as good, because to them, wiping out 'peacniks' like the Elohim is toughening up the survivors so that only the toughest are ready to fight in the last battle.

Personally I can see this since the transformation of Erebus to Hell via the rising AC counter represents a world-changing event that your 'average' person would rather not see as enough reason for a race to dedicate itself to fighting it.

Plus we've pointed out that historically China & Japan has seen outsiders as being mere barbarians; in this case, the race might also see themselves as being the only 'worthy' heir to Erebus.Like I said (but that was before reading that post), the idea is interesting. I'll see how it can fit in my* lore... and also if it can be translated somehow into the gameplay.

*I say "my" because LENA will sort of be in an alternate universe of FFH...

@Ahwaric: Sure, go ahead for the picture ;)

Do you think Dao and my idea would overlap too much? I'd like them to be different enough....

@civ_king: perhaps just a building increasing the food gained? There's nothing in the code (yet) to reduce the food needed by a percent and I think increasing the food gained would have the same effect. And I agree, your way (rather than modifying the food points per pop) would be less of a PITA.

As for ninjas, not sure yet :p

In Rise of Mankind there is a modmod called A New Dawn with a building in it called Shanty Town that decreases how much food you have to put into the food bar for the city to grow

Yes, I know it's possible; it's just that I will avoid dll work if I can :)

*twiddles thumbs*

So is this going to happen?

So is this going to happen?

What will happen?

Dao? I am coding them right now.

0.30? give me 2-3 more weeks.

Another eastern civ? Only time will tell...

End of the world? Not in 2012 ;)

So is this going to happen?

Learn patience. Modders work on their own time, for free. Be grateful for what they put out, rather than expect more. ;)