Why do they exist? I mean, how are they supposed to enter a game? Isn't Hyborem always summoned? Or is one of the leaders randomly chosen?

Minor leaders play a part in the Lord of the Balors scenario. In some modmods (starting with my version), a random Infernal leader is summoned by a ritual instead of having Hyborem summoned by the first person who researches Infernal Pact.

Starting with your version? No, you only get to call it a modmod when it is released. Till then it is just tinkering. You can say "Starting with the Minor Leaders Mod, after I gave Notque the code which I used for it," but not "Starting with my version" unless you manage to release before anyone else :p

ah well give the man the credit he deserves (A) :P

Ok, so, does it mean the same could be possible for the Mercurians, if they had another leader? If yes, how could I do this?

I guess, but you probably wouldn't want it to be exactly the same. You'd probably want to make the Mercurian Gate have a higher world limit and to summon one Mercurian civ per gate. Other than checking for a wonder instead of a pproject it should be pretty much the same code. You'd need to make new Mercurian leaders first though.

Oh, that's a great idea. I suppose you will use it in your modmod, am I right? :p
I already have some idea for new Mercurians.
The problem is modifying python. I'm not sure I can do that, as I never touched any python. I understand it mostly, as I know some php, but it remains cryptic. I'll see... Thanks for the answers!

It could be a bit dangerous to use that approach though unless you change Basium's Convert City spell, as he can take over any city with a Mercurian Gate in it, and if lots of people are calling in little Angels, Basium would get lots of free cities scattered all over.

I wasn't really planning to add more Mercurian leaders, mostly because I don't even know the name of any other important Mercurian character. Unlike most modmoders, I typically try to make my modmod stick closer to canonical lore than even main mod.


The lore does however seem to indicate that more than one Mercurian Gate was built. The Gate in the Radiant Guard scenario and the one in built by Ethne are not the same.



I already changed Basium's convert spell. The Mercurian Gate is irrelevant to the spell in my version. Instead he can convert any city that belongs to another member of his team. The AI cannot use it.



I'm thinking I may want to add a game option that makes the Infernals and Mercurians enter the game as Vassals/Masters of the summoning civ instead of a permanent alliance. I'm not really sure how to code this though.

I wasn't really planning to add more Mercurian leaders, mostly because I don't even know the name of any other important Mercurian character. Unlike most modmoders, I typically try to make my modmod stick closer to canonical lore than even main mod.Well, I've a rather different point of view. I don't try to stick to the canon lore exclusively; I try to create (noncanon) lore, because it is what I like; expanding things, digging, adding, etc. Actually, I'm doing thing for myself. I'm adding a bunch of leaders (balancing female/male proportions for example) and thinking about their backstory which I'll add to the pedia. But I don't plan a release or something...

I'm thinking I may want to add a game option that makes the Infernals and Mercurians enter the game as Vassals/Masters of the summoning civ instead of a permanent alliance. I'm not really sure how to code this though.Well, it would be strange to vassalize Infernals, don't you think? Even if they become masters: what about the player? I've seen a mod which allow the player to be vassal but right now I don't think FfH or the modmods allow that. Couldn't they just appear and gain a great relation bonus toward the summoner civ?

Well, I've a rather different point of view. I don't try to stick to the canon lore exclusively; I try to create (noncanon) lore, because it is what I like;But I don't plan a release or something...
Well, never say never :) We can use some interesting female rulers (though they were minority in our history) and expanded lore.

Well, it would be strange to vassalize Infernals, don't you think?
I do not see anyone vassalizing Basium either. ;)
The minor leaders for both civs are just minor ones. There is only one leader for infernal legions and mercurians are on Basium's personal crusade. So I think they should still be the ones spawned. But there could be some minor leaders, just a good idea is needed on how to implement them for these civs, especially Mercurians.

Well, I've a rather different point of view. I don't try to stick to the canon lore exclusively; I try to create (noncanon) lore, because it is what I like; expanding things, digging, adding, etc. Actually, I'm doing thing for myself. I'm adding a bunch of leaders (balancing female/male proportions for example) and thinking about their backstory which I'll add to the pedia. But I don't plan a release or something...

Raphael, Gabriel and Michael would be obvious choices for names...

But there could be some minor leaders, just a good idea is needed on how to implement them for these civs, especially Mercurians.

Dont know if this is what you are looking for, but you could say that a minor demon of the infernals found a way through an ancient planar gate. The demon recruited creatures to worship the infernals and plan for their coming (maybe this demon leaked secrets that found their way to the Sheaim). The civ would be a regular civ until someone researches infernal pact, then they gain similar benefits as if playing Hyborem.
Something similar could be done with Bassium in saying... predicting the impending invasion, Bassium sent angels to recruit creatures to their cause. Once the Mecurian gate is built, this civ gains many of the benifits as if playing as Bassium. That way those two civs can be played in multiplayer (instead of having to save and reload).

If this was implemented, either way the civ has to research the appropriate tech, but then they don't have to leave their civ and 'start all over.'

other ways they could come in have been mentioned... multiple rituals and gates to bring in more of the war of the heavens to this world.

Raphael, Gabriel and Michael would be obvious choices for names...

They are all 'genderless' males though...(?).

Speaking of the Infernals, what is up with where they spawn? I have had games where there are whole islands that are empty and others that are empty except for barbarian cities and yet the Infernals always end up showing up in this icy waste, often wedged into an area where they cannot expand.

I'm sorry, I would think that the Infernals would 'enjoy' showing up in a nice tropical area so they could despoil it into Hell. Plus, by spawning in these weird places makes the Civ no fun to play.

You are taking too long summoning them I guess. All neat lands have been taken already.

You are taking too long summoning them I guess. All neat lands have been taken already.

No, that is the point I'm making. I've played many a game where there are entire islands that have nothing in them but random barbarians or even some that have barbarian cities that would easily converted to the Infernals. Yet even with this open space, they end up in some place in ice. In fact, about the only time I've ever seen the Infernals show up someplace that didn't have ice was playing on a Erebus map.

Is it possible that the Infernal spawning code doesn't like working with Perfect World or Tectonics maps?

Arkham4269, It's my experience as well that the Infernals are a bit handicapped with PerfectWorld and Tectonics. Once had Hyborem spawn on a single tile island. Basium was not impressed.

But I have encountered them in massive continents as well. Huge flaming deserts and passive spying removing the fog of war is sort of hard on my machine though. :(

Arkham4269, It's my experience as well that the Infernals are a bit handicapped with PerfectWorld and Tectonics. Once had Hyborem spawn on a single tile island. Basium was not impressed.

But I have encountered them in massive continents as well. Huge flaming deserts and passive spying removing the fog of war is sort of hard on my machine though. :(

Yes, I have to turn Hell terrain off or flaming deserts cause my machine to go kaput. I've asked a few times if there was a way to flag flaming deserts off in the custom game without taking out all of the Hell terrain.

After looking at the spawn code of Infernals, it seems that they spawn at a random point on the map where there is room for them. They just have checks for water, already existing city or impassable terrain. Maybe a check for more room (no 1 tile island) and/or nearby civs could be interesting.

Lorewise, what "form" does the summoning of Hyborem take? I mean, where does he appears, from what?

After looking at the spawn code of Infernals, it seems that they spawn at a random point on the map where there is room for them. They just have checks for water, already existing city or impassable terrain. Maybe a check for more room (no 1 tile island) and/or nearby civs could be interesting.

Well I think I'll go back to an earlier save in my current game or try a new game and see how fact I can get to where I can call Hyborem into the game. With so many patches and upgrades between FfH/FF/Orbis, it's hard to know if something has changed. I know in my current game Hyborem would probably spawn on this one tiny island that only has a barb city because that's the only land left.

Makes you wonder, I'm playing an Amurite and I'm very, very late in the game and AV has yet to be discovered. Right now, there are NO tiles that aren't owned by a Civ. Would the game crash if Hyborem got brought into the game?

Lorewise, what "form" does the summoning of Hyborem take? I mean, where does he appears, from what?

From the FfH Wiki: "Cernunnos, the great horned one, was the archangel of Sucellus. He dared to attack Agares directly. Agares picked up the powerful archangel and showed him visions of himself dark and corrupted. So powerful was the vision that it became real, splitting Cernunnos into two creatures. They were identical in form but the new creature, which Agares named Hyborem, was dark in aspect and colored in blood. Hyborem and Cernunnos fought but neither could defeat the other. As such, even the archangel of Agares was stolen from another, he is a perversion of the natural... "

http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Cernunnos

Makes you wonder, I'm playing an Amurite and I'm very, very late in the game and AV has yet to be discovered. Right now, there are NO tiles that aren't owned by a Civ. Would the game crash if Hyborem got brought into the game?I think he just won't spam. When I tested my "minorinfernalsspawn", I had many times where, even though Infernal Pact was researched, not any infernal civ was spawned.

From the FfH Wiki: "Cernunnos, the great horned one, was the archangel of Sucellus. He dared to attack Agares directly. Agares picked up the powerful archangel and showed him visions of himself dark and corrupted. So powerful was the vision that it became real, splitting Cernunnos into two creatures. They were identical in form but the new creature, which Agares named Hyborem, was dark in aspect and colored in blood. Hyborem and Cernunnos fought but neither could defeat the other. As such, even the archangel of Agares was stolen from another, he is a perversion of the natural... "

http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/CernunnosThanks. However, this is not what I wanted. I wanted to know how Hyborem bypassed the compact and entered in Erebus. In game, you research Infernal Pact and boom! here he is. But I wonder what form does this summoning take? Is it a ritual performed by the Sheaim? If so, Hyborem just appeared somewhere in the world? Or he appeared in Sheaim lands? Or did he just enter creation without help from inside it?

Try and post your question in the Lore forum. It will get great responses there.