http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww28/Dhivuri/LENA280.png
The Ngomele civilization
for Legacy of Erebus: Nuova Alba

Download

You can play them in LENA, which is downloadable here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12537).

Development

You can help fasten their development by giving feedback on some subjects. The most needed for now are the Kha and the Shur. I created a small document about the Shur spells that I would like to get feedback on: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_7fnpdw2d5 ;

Also, you can see description of wanted unit models here: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dd83n647_12d82zt6wt

Description

Current Pedia Entry:
The Ngomele are gnolls, hyena-like humanoids. Prior to the Age of Ice, they were scattered in Erebus. They were small aggressive tribes, attacking and pillaging everything, including the other gnoll tribes. With the fall of the winter, only the people of the Lemlwa Isthmus survived. The other tribes were wiped out by the cold, starvations and war against themselves for something to eat. The eight tribes of Lemlwa never became friends but they did act together in order to survive: they begin to allow themselves to eat their own kind. With the everlasting territory wars, the death rate, though not surpassing the natality rate, was really high; instead of burning their dead (or the ennemy's) as they did before, they eated them. They also developped a strong bond with their environment; some of them were capable of bending the trees and the grass to their will. The winter finally over, their ancient instincts reappeared. However, from five tribes came five ones, known as the Councillors, who federed their five tribes in one unity.

Civilization trait: Lemlwa Survivors
Sets an initial city's population cap of 2;
Civilization race: Gnoll
+30% combat against Animals, +15% against Beasts;
Double movement in Plains;
Heals +15% after combat;
Can't acquire Cannibalize, Bronze, Iron and Mithril Weapons;
Civilization spell: Edge of Extinction
During 20 turns (on Normal speed), whenever a unit with a race promo is killed, all units with the same race in a range of 3 take damage;
for now available from the start;
ImprovementYieldChanges:
Pasture
+1 Food, +1 Hammer
Farm
-3 Food, +1 Hammer
Aul
+1 Commerce
TerrainYieldChanges: +1 Food on Plains;

City's Population Cap mechanic

Before, they had 4 food consumption instead of 3. In next version, they will have regular food consumption and regular BFC but each city will have a population cap. This population cap can be raised by three means: Buildings, Techs and Civics.

Techs raising it (increase): Agriculture (1), Code of Laws (1), Education (1), Feral Bond (3), Medicine (2), Sanitation (1);
Civics raising it (increase): None for now;
Non-Ngomele buildings raising it (increase/global?): Aquae Sucellus (1/yes).

Leaders

Mvadang
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3260/cc04.jpg
Neutral;
Imperialist/Philosophical
Favorite Civic: Enlightenment;
Hated Civic: God King;
Religion Weights:Ashen Veil: -80
Octopus Overlords: -40
Council of Esus: 0
Fellowship of Leaves: -20
Runes of Kilmorph: -40
Empyrean: 70
Order: -60

Mvadang, leader of the Veve tribe, is the gnoll who started the unification of the tribes of Lemlwa. She turned to her close friend Vungu and then to Migeng of the Bwungi tribe. He refused to ever meet them. Against Vungu advices, Mvadang launched an attack, deciding that it would be best to force everyone to be unified rather than to remain scattering and waring.

Vungu
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6448/zaiden.jpg
Neutral;
Financial/Trader;
Favorite Civic: Wealth;
Hated Civic: Republic;
Religion Weights:Ashen Veil: -40
Octopus Overlords: -50
Council of Esus: 40
Fellowship of Leaves: 0
Runes of Kilmorph: 60
Empyrean: -40
Order: -75

Vungu is the leader of the Rada tribe, the southernmost of the eight tribes of Lemlwa. She was quick to join Mvadang in her quest of unity: the two shared an history of hidden meetings, enjoying each other company but not willing to provoke anger among their people; and, above all, she had seen with her own eyes the Ngurwu tribe being slaughtered by a bunch of orcs.

Lengdu
http://fc08.deviantart.com/images/i/2003/46/2/4/Vantage_Point.jpg
Neutral;
Peaceful/Wanderer;
Favorite Civic: Free Trade;
Hated Civic: Isolation;
Religion Weights:Ashen Veil: -40
Octopus Overlords: 0
Council of Esus: -60
Fellowship of Leaves: 20
Runes of Kilmorph: -20
Empyrean: 0
Order: 0

Lengdu is one of the rare males who got access to power in the Ngomele society. He's a War Kha and is the Master of the Shuwa Council.

Heroes

Banung the Blind
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7446/pmxwiwj2.jpg
Arcane unit;
120 hammers
2/4:strength:
1:move:
+1 Nature affinity
begins with Hero, Shur Arcanes I, Shur Arcanes II, Nature I, Nature II;
can build Nature Nodes;
available at Sorcery, requires a Deadgnolls Copse;
Banung the Blind was the leader of the Zimge tribe. She was defeated by Nga, one of her fellows, because Banung refused to meet Mvadang and Vungu. Nga pulled her eyes out and eated them. She was then named Nga Eye-Eater. She decided not to kill Banung; instead, she locked her up in her own hut, because she loved chatting with her. Banung developped the ability to see without her eyes, just with the help of Nature, or, as she called it, the Green Sea, but she did not tell anybody. One night, she warned Nga of an incoming assassin by screaming to wake her up. Then, Nga freed her and took her at her side to change to way they see.

Nga Eye-Eater
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3469798752_c98fcd07d3.jpg
Melee unit;
200 hammers
8/6:strength:
1:move:
1-2 first strikes
Immune to first strikes
+1 Nature affinity
can learn "Take a Leaf out of my Book!", "Go for the Eyes!" and "Tear them Apart!" abilities;
begins with Hero, Courage;
available at Iron Working;

"Take a Leaf out of my Book!"
require level 5;
give the Order of Mastery promotion to friendly units in the stack: 1 Free XP/per turn, 3 Free XP/combat, Immune to Fear, removed by combat, 60% chance to expire per turn;

"Go for the Eyes!"
require level 10;
give the Order of Accuracy promotion to friendly units in the stack: +3 first strikes, Immune to Fear, removed by combat, 100% chance to expire per turn;

"Tear them Apart!"
require level 15;
give the Order of Slaughter promotion to friendly units in the stack: +100%:strength:, Immune to Fear, removed by combat, 100% chance to expire per turn;

Buildings

Palace
National wonder: 1 allowed
Gives Nature mana, Earth mana, Shadow mana
Increases the city's pop cap by 2

Council Tree
National wonder: 1 allowed
170 hammers
+3:culture:, +1 espionage
+2:)
+10%:gp: in all cities
+2 XP
-30% maintenance modifier in the city
+1 Trade route
-15 crime rate
Free Child of the Councillors promotion to units built in the city
require 3 cities to be built
available at Code of Laws, double production speed for Philosophical leaders
When Mvadung of the Veve, Vungu of the Rada, Gwu of the Wuyo, Hasher of the Mdiri and Nga of the Zimge were reunited in Bwoheshegu, they began talking about what to do next. They talked hours about how to organize their federation, how to name it, how to name themselves and many other subjects. Many of their followers were listening quietly: they had never seen such a party... well, such a gathering. But the five leaders felt uneasy. They had been standing for hours. Gwu proposed to find a place where to gather. They searched but there was no place where to sit and gather that was right. There Banung came. She walked straight to the biggest, tallest tree of the city. She spoke to it; it opened itself, unveiling so much space that the current population could live there.

Deadgnolls Copse
replaces Mage Guild
120 hammers
+2 culture
+1:) per Nature mana
+1:health: per Nature mana
+2XP for Arcane units built in this city
+1 Bard slot
require Knowledge of the Ether, double production speed for Arcane leaders
With time, food was more easily found than during the Winter. Thus, cannibalism as main mean of nutrition recessed. It was still common to eat the defeated, but it was usually not a gnoll but rather an orc, a goblin or another animal. When an influent person would die, some parts of it were harvested and degusted during the funeral banquet. The remains and the people who wasn't at all eated were burned and merged to the soil of a copse somewhere in the town, nearly always at the center. In the biggest cities, like Bwoheshegu, the said copse became very large. The Shur, among other, more simple people, often come in the copse to rest their mind and infuse themselves with the energy of the ashes that gave birth to the nature in there.

Mbumgwu
replaces Colosseum
180 hammers
+1 Happy
+1:) per 20%:culture:
+30%:culture:
+2XP for Melee and Disciple units built in this city
1 Bard, 1 Engineer slots
require both Construction and Festivals, double production for Creative leaders
The Mbumgwu is one of the biggest buildings ever built by the Ngomele. They're many of them throughout the federation and each one is different at each representation. It's like a circus where battles are played. At first, they weren't played, they were fought. But with time, this practice faded out for the benefit of spectacle. They use explosives, lights and music. Many gnolls just want to spend their night there. Many others just want to be an actor there. Warriors are often seen helping actors to make their play more realistic in term of battle. And that's just more to appeal the spectators.

Shurmbumgwu
World Wonder: 1 allowed
350 hammers
+3:)
+6:culture:
+3XP for Arcane units built in this city
+5XP for Disciple units built in this city
Free Mbumgwushur promotion for Arcane units built in this city
+15% maintenance in the city
require both Drama and Sorcery
The Shurmbumgwu, as its name implies, is a Mbumgwu where Shur are the center of most of the plays. Shur use their powers to enhance the show, to provide more settings, to make the scene alive. The building is even bigger than a standard Mbumgwu; but its costs are also bigger. But that's not some gold that would make the smiles leave the faces.

Bedule
replaces Granary
100 hammers
+10% food with Cow, Horse, Pig and Sheep
1 Merchant slot
require Agriculture, 50% production for Expansive leaders, Double production for Agricultural leaders

Ngozoleg
replaces Smokehouse
60 hammers
+1 culture (+5% in current version)
30% food kept
+1 Health with Cow, Horse, Pig and Sheep
Increase city's pop cap by 1
require Hunting, 50% production for Expansive leaders, Double production for Agricultural leaders

Well of the Green
replaces Pagan Temple
100 hammers
+3 Culture
+20% Culture
+2 Health
+1 Happiness with Incense
1 Priest slot
require Mysticism, double production for Spiritual leaders

Town Council
replaces Courthouse
100 Hammers
+4 Espionage
-10% maintenance
-5 crime
Increase city's pop cap by 2
require Code of Laws, double production for Organized leaders

Byre
replaces Stable
100 hammers
+10% Food, +20% Hammers with Cow
+3XP for Mounted units
Increase city's pop cap by 1
require Horseback Riding and Cow resource

Mdahir
replaces Monastery
225 Hammers
+6 Culture
+20% Science
+2 prophet gpp
+1 Health
+1 Happiness with State Religion
2 Prophet slot
+20%:commerce: with Corn, Sugar, Wheat and Rice
-10 Crime
require Monasticism, double production speed for Spiritual leaders, +25% production with Marble
require 2 Well of the Green

Dead Tree
replaces Monument
65 Hammers
+1 Unhealth
+3 Culture
+25% Culture
1 Bard slot
require Ancient Chants, double production for Creative leaders

Units

Shur
replaces Adept
90 Hammers
2:strength:
1:move:
begins with Shur Arcanes I, Nature I
available at Knowledge of the Ether
The Shur are weak. They are forced to dedicate their time to listening, feeling, seeing, smelling and tasting the Green Sea. They often don't eat for a week, too busy in the wild or in the Copse to even think about their starving stomach. They can become invisible in trees (or rather they hide well). They aren't very capable but are determined to break through the Green Sea secrets.

Heishur
replaces Mage
Cannot be built, must be upgraded from a 4+ level unit
3:strength:
1:move:
20% collateral damage up to 40% (max 4 units)
+1 Nature affinity
begins with Shur Arcanes I & II, Nature I & II, Medic I
replaces Mage
available at Sorcery
The Heishur is a "greater Shur". She's able to communicate with the Green Sea. She can bend it to enhance her body, to help her feet move faster, nearly making them slide on the soil. Now, she trains her body to endure the constant waves of the Sea, to make it a ship using the Green as its advantage.

Heheishur
replaces Archmage
Cannot be built, must be upgraded from a 6+ level unit
5:strength:
1:move:
50% collateral damage up to 60% (max 7 units)
+1 Nature affinity
begins with Shur Arcanes I & II & III, Nature I & II & III, Medic I & II
replaces Archmage
available at Strength of Will
requires Reagents & Incense
The Heheishur is a "greater greater Shur". She now knows the secrets of the Green Sea; in fact, she has let herself been swalloled by it. She is now a wave rather than a ship. She is made of bubbles of nature rather than of bones. She's capable of making the grass and the trees grow; her body is as strong as a torrent.

Cowrider
replaces Horseman
100 Hammers
6 Strength
2 Moves
10% Withdrawal
require Horseback Riding and Cow resource

Vigilant
unique unit
100 Hammers
4 Strength
1 Move
1-2 First strikes
+50% against Recon units
defends first against Recon units
starts with Guardsman
require Knowledge of Ether, Tracking and a Deadgnolls Copse, +25% production for Arcane and Wanderer leaders

Kha
unique unit
75 Hammers
0/2 Strength
2 Moves, cannot reveal map
starts with Recordbook, Blank Page
require a Mbumgwu, double production for Creative leaders

Shur System

The Ngomele Arcane units aren't able to use the regular spells available with Channeling. Instead, they use the Shur Arcanes, the manipulation of the Green Sea; they also have access to the Nature line of Channeling spells.

Shur Arcanes are divided into three lines: the Spirit line, the Body line and the Nature line (which is different from the Channeling Nature line).

As of now, it is really unfinished. I wanted all promotions to give bonuses (or maybe all II+ promotions) and there's only Shur Body II that gives something... And, for example, Shur Nature I doesn't even give access to a spell yet.

Shur Body I: Drink of the Sea
Shur Body II: Blood of the Sea, Mark of Health (+ gives immunity to diseases)
Shur Body III: Endless, Magnetic Surge

Shur Spirit I: Images of Remorse
Shur Spirit II: Spirit Twisting
Shur Spirit III: Unseen Haven

Shur Nature I: NONE
Shur Nature II: Green Veil
Shur Nature III: Green Boom


Drink of the Sea
requires a Well of the Green
only castable in cities
gives the Drink of the Sea promotion to the caster: 15% withdrawal, 20% expire, +1 FreeXP/combat, +20 Spell Damage, random chance to get Sea Addiction: -25% withdrawal, -20% heal in enemy land, -15% in neutral and -10% in friendly, 10% expire chance, -10 spell damage, -50 work rate, 25 damage on remove
Blood of the Sea
gives the Blood of the Sea promotion: +20% collateral damage, +2 Poison combat, dispellable
Mark of Health
removes Diseased, Poisoned, Withered
gives the Mark of Health promotion: 25% expire, Immune to the three promo above, +100% resistance against Poison
Endless
heals units damaged to at least 50% and gives them the Endless promotion: +25% combat, removed after combat, 90 damage on remove, degrades to Exhausted: -40% heal in enemy land, -25 in neutral, -10 in friendly, -25% combat, removed when healed, 10% chance to go away by itself, can't have Endless
Magnetic Surge (one of the few good spells)
do damage to enemies unit at range 1; damage is dependant on the weapon promotions
Images of Remorse
Add the Remorse promotion to neutral/enemy units at 1 range: the unit becomes onlyDefensive, meaning it can't attack, 100% removal; the spell has a small chance to give Guilt instead, which has only 50% chance to go away;
Spirit Twisting
can only be casted if the unit has already casted this turn and doesn't have either Twisted Spirit or Broken Spirit
apply the Twisted Spirit prom to the caster: -50% combat percent, Held, 100% expire;
has near 65% chance to remove "hasCasted" and enable a new spell to be cast;
however, it has 30% of also giving Mindwrecked: 50% chance to fade, -10 spell damage, 75% chance to miscast;
on top of that, has 5% chance of giving Crazed;
also has tiny chance to give either Ascended Spirit: +20 spell damage, +1 Spirit Affinity
OR Broken Spirit: -80% combat percent, 5% betrayal chance, -20 spell damage
Unseen Haven
can only be cast in forests/jungles or on hills
only the units having a level equal or superior to the caster's level can enter the square of the caster, who's now held;
Green Veil (one of the simplest, yet one of the best too)
gives the Green Veil promotion: +50% resistance to Cold, Fire, Lightning and Poison
Green Boom
can only be cast in cities
can cause war
range of 2
damage to 60 (max 100) units with poison damage
has a chance to destroy improvements


Kha System

The Kha System is complex. It was fun to create but it certainly isn't that fun to play with; I think I fell in one of the traps Kael talked about in "How to design a mod".

So, the Kha starts with a Recordbook promotion. This promotion allows him to gain a Blank Page with each level (plus the one he starts with). The Blank Page allows the Kha to choose one Song to learn. In a city, the Kha can cast a "reset recordbook" spell to change which songs he knows.

The Songs are divided in two types: the Songs and the Refrains. Songs are simple spells having a one-time effect. Refrains are spells continuously casted every turn, having the Kha held to cast them. It is possible to cast a "Stop Singing" spell while casting a Refrain, so, next turn, the Kha would be able to move again.

Also, the Kha can cast the Tales ability in cities, adding a Tales building to it and generating a lot of culture (depending on many things) in the city, at the cost of its own life.

The Kha System will certainly undergo a massive reworking for the next next version. I hate it right now. Well, I hate Refrains and the way the Recordbook works. I think I'll go for a more traditional (in FFH domain) way. Also, I think I'll give the Kha two upgrades: the War Kha and the "Divine Kha".

Anyway, here are the Songs:

Hymn of the Defeated
removes Loyalty and Courage from enemy units in a 1 range
has a chance (Level * 5) to give the Terrified prom to enemy units
Fiery Wangole
gives the Hasted promotion to friendly units in the caster's stack
has a small chance to give Enraged as well
Infuriating Drums
gives the Infuriated promotion to friendly units: +25% collateral damage chance, 100% expire
Aria of Swiftness
gives the Swiftness promotion to friendly units: +2~3 first strikes, 100% expire
Ballad of the Pink Tongue
must be cast in cities with occupation anger
10% chance to be miscasted
if succeed: removes the occupation anger
if miscasted: +5 occupation anger
The Refrains:
Melodies of Life
gives the Is Singing Melodies of Life promotion to the caster: heals units in the same tile +30%/turn
Whispers
can only be casted on a pasture
adds 1 Commerce and 1 Production on the tile (as long as the caster is on it)
The Impregnable
gives the Impregnable promo to Melee, Archer and Recon units: only defensive, double defensive bonus, +1 defense Strength, removed after combat
Eyes of the Sea
adds the Seaseeing promo to units in the stack: +50% defensive strike chance, +25 defensive strike damage, 75% expire chance

Civics

Both are in the Economy category. They start with Gnoll Tribes and cannot switch to anything else than Gnoll Council.

Gnoll Tribes
no upkeep
+25% distance maintenance modifier
-25% number of city maintenance modifier
Gnoll Council
requires Code of Law
high upkeep
+50% distance maintenance modifier
-80% number of city maintenance modifier
+1 Happy in largest cities
+2 Trade route in each city
No foreign trade routes
No foreign corps
+50% food and production from trade
+100% commerce from trade

Promotions

Shur Arcanes I, Shur Arcanes II
grant access to, respectively, Shur I and Shur II spells
The Shur Arcanes are secrets that will remain unintelligible to most of people even if they were revealed. It takes a Shur mind, a mind made of the Green Sea to grasp their meaning. And with it, the abyss opens and reveals its wonders.

Child of the Councillors
immune to the Enraged promotion
immune to Domination
+25%:strength: against Barbarians
Since they were born, they had been drowned into the myths of the Councillors. They will forever remain faithful to those who made them survive through time.

Mbumgwushur
+1:strength:
+10 spell power
It takes more than some fireworks to please those who watch at the Shurmbumgwu. It takes ear-tearing eye-widing fireworks.

Some more mechanics

They gain some culture every time any unit dies near a city.
They can gain some promotions after combat giving the unit a "food stock" that is possible to put in a city.

Some more culture

Matriarcat
The Ngomele follow a matriarcal society structure. It can be seen by the fact that seven leaders out of eight were female at the time Mvadang began the unification. The sole male, Migeng of the Bwungi, was fool enough to refuse a meeting and was killed during the Veve assault. More intricate marks are seen in the way unions are realised: the groom has to come to the bride's house at foot (wherever might it be) and he will stay here. Basically, no man stays where he was born and no man can even stay where he lived with his wife if she died.
No man can ever participate in the Council. They watch and listen only. Women can participate and can become Councillor. Men can freely play in a Mbumgwu or have any other job. When writing was discovered, they were denied the right to use it at first. Then they earned it (or maybe they were given it) but not many use it already.
Women are favored in the army. They're generally stronger and quicker than men. It doesn't mean than men are forbidden. They're simply secondary. The contrast is even more clear in the magical branch: little to no male Shur exists or has existed. Women are very strict when it comes to the Green Sea.

Naming
Ancient names where mostly composed by a first name and the tribename. Sometimes, as Nga Eye-Eater and Banung the Blind, a determinative was added and the tribename not used. Sometimes after the unification, determinative became more widespread than tribenames; these were quickly abandoned in favor of determinatives. They may look like family name but they're not; the determinative is likely to change during one's life according to one's deeds and it isn't passed upon children. Upon daughters, the first name of the mother is passed, along with a personal first name (Nga Shuwa With-the-Pink-Tongue, a great poetess, is a typical example: Shuwa is her mother's first name, Nga is hers and With-the-Pink-Tongue is her determinative, given according to the fact that, before reading out loud her poems, she always ate a pink-coloring flower to ease her mind). Nothing is passed upon sons: they just get a first name and, later, a determinative.

Credits

Art for Vungu is (c) Jae;
Art for Banung the Blind is (c) Jacob Probelski;
I need to find the author of the Mvadang picture.

I sure did not think of a modmodmod, but succes breeds inspiration

Overall I like it, but I think the combination of the world spell, the council tree, and the nature affinity given the hero and the arcane line is a bit overpowered. Rather than 3 affinity for the hero and 1 for arcane units, I'd say make it 1-1.5 and .5.

You may have issues getting artwork, but if you happen to own Warcraft, you can rip the gnoll graphics using Game Extractor.

Their world spell for causing a random amount of nature mana could be game-breaking, though

I like these guys, a lot. I've long been wanting a nature-centric race that wasn't elven. A few suggestions:

- Affinity 3 for anything poses balance issues, especially when you've given them two extra ways of getting nature mana. I'd suggest pulling back on that a little bit. From your description, it sounds like Banung would be a support unit instead of a combat monster. I'd suggest terraforming abilities, some form of recon spell, and/or buffing abilities rather than affinity.
- You'll make things simpler on yourself (and reduce promotion clutter on the units) if make the cannibalize effects a part of the Gnoll race.
- I would advise against making them agnostic, as they have so much in common with FoL. You could, however, use unique units and buildings to make FoL very different for them to represent the Green Sea ideals. Maybe even make that unknown tech requirement for the Council Tree be Way of the Forests.
- The Heheishur seems a bit much. Compared to a normal Archmage they have two extra movement, at least two extra strength (assuming palace mana and the Council Tree), and an extra spell (what do those Shur spells do, anyway?). I'd suggest either toning it down or toning one of their combat lines down instead to compensate.
- Given the strong nature mana theme, consider giving them a small bonus yield from nature nodes.

Nice :)

suggestion: make them, just like the elves, be able to build on top of trees.

if you decide to make the grean sea a religion in your modmodmod, it should be the only religion they can adopt. if you don't make it a religion, FoL would seem the most natural.

If you make it a religion, make sure it has enough differences with FoL, else it would be an unnessecary change, wich you could easily implement in you civ.

In reference to WoW, get a free trial so you can download the stuff

WoW's models are mostly likely too high poly... Warcraft 2 or 3 would be better. Now that I'm mostly done with my mod, I'll look into ripping them. :goodjob:

Well, first, thanks for answering. I didn't made any change yet because I have little time. However, I did take your comments into account.

if you decide to make the grean sea a religion in your modmodmod, it should be the only religion they can adopt. if you don't make it a religion, FoL would seem the most natural.

If you make it a religion, make sure it has enough differences with FoL, else it would be an unnessecary change, wich you could easily implement in you civ.- I would advise against making them agnostic, as they have so much in common with FoL. You could, however, use unique units and buildings to make FoL very different for them to represent the Green Sea ideals. Maybe even make that unknown tech requirement for the Council Tree be Way of the Forests.I won't make them agnostic; so I won't create the Green Sea religion. I don't think it's necessary; it's also a work I don't want to do right now and that I can incorporate in the unique-units/buildings of the civ. I will do brainstorming about how I can adapt FoL to their own beliefs. And I think I will make the Council Tree available at Way of the Forests. Seems a great idea :)

suggestion: make them, just like the elves, be able to build on top of trees.Oh, didn't think about that. As they wouldn't cut down trees, it's perfect. However, I hope that won't make them too elven... Seeing improvements and forests in same tiles has a distinct elven feeling, at least for me.

@far_wanderer: I like your ideas about the nature node and merging cannibalize and gnoll race. I had thought about the latter but, don't know why, I ruled it out. Maybe because I thought "How to make the race so that it gives the Cannibalize promotion?" while I just have to edit the healing rate after combat. I would have to make it so that they can't learn Cannibalize, though.

About the nature node, is it possible to increase its yield for a civilization? I don't remember it being possible. I would have to check that. Still, would 1:food: and 1:hammers: be too much?

The most striking advice is: tone it down! And I got it. I will certainly rethink Banung as a buffer; after all, she's that in her relationship with Nga Eye-Eater: she's a sort of adviser for the Councillor. I'll also rework the affinities. I didn't know I could use decimals, though. Can I really? That'd be great.

The world spell: When I said "random (?)", I meant that I don't really know. Maybe the number would be equal or proportional to some other thing. Maybe it could be scalled to the number of cities and the size of the map. Or it could be another spell entirely.

The Shur spells: I don't have many ideas right know. May be some terraforming/buffer spells, at least for Shur II, as it would be nice to have them available for Banung (and as she's the sole unit that can use them). I could add a Ngomele specific event that could grant Shur II to one Heheishur... Hm.

I have a problem with FoL: it's fitting great with the Ngomele but I don't think Kithra Kyriel would be the kind of hero they would "create". Yvain is good, though. So, I could try to make Kithra unbuildable for Ngomele and I could add another hero only buildable for FoL Ngoleme. It could make the "Green Sea FoL" quite good, I think. I'm not sure how this would be recieved though.

WoW's models are mostly likely too high poly... Warcraft 2 or 3 would be better. Now that I'm mostly done with my mod, I'll look into ripping them. :goodjob:Oh, that would be nice since I don't own the game(s). However, if you don't feel like doing it after all, don't beat yourself, I'd get my hands on them. It's up to you :)

Again, thanks for the comments :)

Oh, didn't think about that. As they wouldn't cut down trees, it's perfect. However, I hope that won't make them too elven... Seeing improvements and forests in same tiles has a distinct elven feeling, at least for me.

Maybe only allow specific improvements in forests? I get the feeling they'd be just fine building a town in the forest, but probably wouldn't be able to farm it.

@far_wanderer: I like your ideas about the nature node and merging cannibalize and gnoll race. I had thought about the latter but, don't know why, I ruled it out. Maybe because I thought "How to make the race so that it gives the Cannibalize promotion?" while I just have to edit the healing rate after combat. I would have to make it so that they can't learn Cannibalize, though.

Not hard to do, as I believe Ahwaric imported the Allow/Exclude tags from FF. Just put this in the racial promotion: <PromotionExcludes>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_CANNIBALIZE</Promotion>
</PromotionExcludes>

About the nature node, is it possible to increase its yield for a civilization? I don't remember it being possible. I would have to check that. Still, would 1:food: and 1:hammers: be too much?

It is now with Jean Elcard's new code. ;) In the civilization infos page, look for a ImprovementYieldChange tag near the bottom of a civ's entry... Should be used already to make elven farms yield less food.

The most striking advice is: tone it down! And I got it. I will certainly rethink Banung as a buffer; after all, she's that in her relationship with Nga Eye-Eater: she's a sort of adviser for the Councillor. I'll also rework the affinities. I didn't know I could use decimals, though. Can I really? That'd be great.

The world spell: When I said "random (?)", I meant that I don't really know. Maybe the number would be equal or proportional to some other thing. Maybe it could be scalled to the number of cities and the size of the map. Or it could be another spell entirely.

The Shur spells: I don't have many ideas right know. May be some terraforming/buffer spells, at least for Shur II, as it would be nice to have them available for Banung (and as she's the sole unit that can use them). I could add a Ngomele specific event that could grant Shur II to one Heheishur... Hm.

I have a problem with FoL: it's fitting great with the Ngomele but I don't think Kithra Kyriel would be the kind of hero they would "create". Yvain is good, though. So, I could try to make Kithra unbuildable for Ngomele and I could add another hero only buildable for FoL Ngoleme. It could make the "Green Sea FoL" quite good, I think. I'm not sure how this would be recieved though.

Personally, I think they would worship very differently from the Elves, while following the same basic tenants, so I'd say replace nearly all FoL units with UUs, while keeping the same basic functions.

Oh, that would be nice since I don't own the game(s). However, if you don't feel like doing it after all, don't beat yourself, I'd get my hands on them. It's up to you :)

Again, thanks for the comments :)

I'm actually looking at doing it now. :goodjob: Figure the models would be useful for the Warhammer mod's Skaven as well.

Maybe only allow specific improvements in forests? I get the feeling they'd be just fine building a town in the forest, but probably wouldn't be able to farm it.
That is harder to do. It is possible, but you would have to go back to the pre-BtS mechanism of having seperate build orders and seperate units. Captured workers/slaves would be unable to build in forests, and Gnoll Workers could be used by human/ork/dwarf civs to build in forests.

I really like the idea of gnolls and I'm looking forward to playing them. Your flavor ideas are really great. Nevertheless I have some suggestions to make their playstyle a bit more unique.
You could give them a free Soul Forge building (of course with a different name) in every city - but with :food: instead of :hammers: (Something like 2-5 :food: per killed unit - the exact amount had to be tested). IMHO would make perfectly sense for scavengers, wouldn't be too overpowered and would enable a unique playstyle (especially interesting against the barbs).
Of course improvements on forests would be possible but I consider repeating a mechanic somehow boring. Why don't you improve plains for them instead as 1. there is no civ using it 2. it fits gnolls anyway as hyenas live there nearly exclusively in real world. Something discreet like +1 :food: +1:hammers: or +1 :commerce:.

@Imuratep: I like the Scavenger building idea. I thought of doing a pagan temple giving +3 food but it seems a better idea and it's very flavorful. However, I looked in the XML for the Soul Forge code and couldn't find any reference to that bonus... is it handled by python?

As for the plains and building on forests, its true that they revere all nature and not just the trees. I thought of giving them buildings improving terrain and no improvement (they would prefer to let the nature untouched) but it would cause issues for resources and for balance as well: it may be much easier to improve all the tiles at once with one building; but it may also be much harder to use base terrain without having the capability of improving it while the city is building something.

I'm actually looking at doing it now. :goodjob: Figure the models would be useful for the Warhammer mod's Skaven as well. That's great then! Looking forward to see them (in fact, I did some research and found that there exists at least six (or five, not sure) different models in Warcraft III, which is already great).

Looks like I'll have more work to do with all the FoL units. That's cool! I'll try getting the Civilization and Leaders code done tomorrow or the day after. Time to settle some things.

Thanks all of you for your concern. I greatly appreciate it :goodjob:

You want CvEventManager.py for the Soul Forge code, shouldn't be hard to adapt.

In def onUnitKilled:
iSoulForge = gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_SOUL_FORGE')
for iiX in range(iX-1, iX+2, 1):
for iiY in range(iY-1, iY+2, 1):
pPlot2 = CyMap().plot(iiX,iiY)
if pPlot2.isCity():
pCity = pPlot2.getPlotCity()
if pCity.getNumRealBuilding(iSoulForge) > 0:
pCity.changeProduction(unit.getExperienceTimes100( )/100 + 10)
CyInterface().addMessage(pCity.getOwner(),True,25, CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_SOUL_FORGE",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Soulforge.dds',ColorTypes(7),pCity.getX(),pCity.ge tY(),True,True)

You'd want to add a new variable for the building, and then swap all references to 'Soul Forge' and 'Production' with the name of your building or variable, and food.

The world spell: When I said "random (?)", I meant that I don't really know. Maybe the number would be equal or proportional to some other thing. Maybe it could be scalled to the number of cities and the size of the map. Or it could be another spell entirely.

the world spell could simply convert all mana nodes on the map to nature mana and spawn barbarian treemen on all mananodes not in your border.

I have a problem with FoL: it's fitting great with the Ngomele but I don't think Kithra Kyriel would be the kind of hero they would "create". Yvain is good, though. So, I could try to make Kithra unbuildable for Ngomele and I could add another hero only buildable for FoL Ngoleme. It could make the "Green Sea FoL" quite good, I think. I'm not sure how this would be recieved though.

Make a Kithra UU for the Gnomele then. so they cant build kithra but CAN build this other hero that is more in their flavour.


Figure the models would be useful for the Warhammer mod's Skaven as well.

WOOOOOT!!!

Ugh. Game Extractor works with Warcraft 2, and WoW, but not Warcraft 3. Not sure why... Doing two things atm. Reinstalling WoW to see if I can use those, and getting a copy of 3DSMax5, which of course is the only version Blizzard released an editor for so I can rip from Warcraft 3. :crazyeye:

this sounds really cool.

If the tags were imported, you can set the gnoll racial ability to grant you food every time you defeat an enemy. It doesn't distinguish between living and non-living enemies though, so may cause a few "Huh?" moments when killing a fireball adds 2 food to the nearest city.

If the tags were imported, you can set the gnoll racial ability to grant you food every time you defeat an enemy. It doesn't distinguish between living and non-living enemies though, so may cause a few "Huh?" moments when killing a fireball adds 2 food to the nearest city.

I really like this idea! This would make the civ really unique and give big incentives to go to war. Although I think the food going to a random gnoll city rather than the nearest city would work better... especially if someone could code a pooled civ food code.

If the tags were imported, you can set the gnoll racial ability to grant you food every time you defeat an enemy. It doesn't distinguish between living and non-living enemies though, so may cause a few "Huh?" moments when killing a fireball adds 2 food to the nearest city.Unfortunately, they wasn't. I just check UnitSchema.xml of both Orbis and FF; YieldsFromWin is present only in the FF version. Sad but I can get along with the Soul Forge mechanic (at least for now... *looks toward Ahwaric*).

the world spell could simply convert all mana nodes on the map to nature mana and spawn barbarian treemen on all mananodes not in your border.Well, that's a good idea. I'm not sure yet about the world spell. I thought about it but nothing really "dinged" as of now.

@Valkrionn: Thanks for the code and good luck for ripping those graphics :)

I just began to make the CivilizationInfo of the Ngomele and I ran into something I had forgotten: the select/order sounds. I've not tried all of them and I think I'll use vanilla BTS ones, as the other civs do... So I searched to find which one were already used. Here's the list of the ones I can use freely:American
Aztec
Chinese
English
Greek
Incan
Japanese
Korean
Malinese
Ottoman
PortugueseFrom this list, I'd say that the Malinese set fits rather well, considering the linguistic feel I gave to them. However, I prefer the Zulu set. The Maya one may be good too, but they are, respectively, owned by Clan and by Mazatl. As Bannor and Scions share the same set (Rome) I may use the Zulu one after all.

Also, I would like it to be the most modular possible. All XML should be (I don't see why it wouldn't, really) but the python bit for the Soul Forge mechanic is not possibly modular, so... well, there will be a non-modular bit. That's annoying.

Eh, Civilizations will very rarely be fully modular. The Scions started out that way, but within a week or two the mod was running amok through the python. :lol:

I've got the skins converted, trying to get the skeleton. Need 3DSMax5 for that, but the torrent is taking quite a bit of time... Couldn't find the demo hosted anywhere, the version is too old.

I've got the Gnoll, Gnoll Archer, Gnoll Overseer, and Gnoll 'Warden'(Mage).

I'm also ripping the Pandaren, as they're just awesome. :lol:

Valkrionn: That's great! I know nothing about that stuff, however. In what format would the graphics be? Would I need to edit them in any way? Basically, I want to know if I'll have to digest all the tutorials of the Modding Tutorials section or not. I did that already except for all the art related ones... So it may be time, after all :p

By the time I get them to you, it should be in the same format as all other graphic files. The image I posted is unusable, I converted it from a dds so you can get an idea of what they look like. :goodjob:

Eh, Civilizations will very rarely be fully modular. The Scions started out that way, but within a week or two the mod was running amok through the python. :lol:

I've got the skins converted, trying to get the skeleton. Need 3DSMax5 for that, but the torrent is taking quite a bit of time... Couldn't find the demo hosted anywhere, the version is too old.

I've got the Gnoll, Gnoll Archer, Gnoll Overseer, and Gnoll 'Warden'(Mage).

I'm also ripping the Pandaren, as they're just awesome. :lol:

hehe, cool stuff.
looking forward to see some stuff from wc3.
but even more interesting would be to have FfH converted to WC3 as a realtime version of FfH :D

very nice :) this civ is going much faster then the asian stuff :)

Pandaren? send them over to the Asian civ group... they are epic here is concept art
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Balance.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandarenbrewmaster.JPG
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren2.JPG
EDIT: looks like they aren't working, here are the hyperlinks
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Balance.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandarenbrewmaster.JPG
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren2.JPG

@civ_king: Congratulations, you just find a third way of creating an asian civ :goodjob:

@Valkrionn: Oh, that's great! Thank you :goodjob:

In some respects these guys fill a void left in Orbis (assuming this is just for Orbis) left when Ahwaric ported in the Matazl but not the evil lizards.

In some respects the seem a cross between them and the native-American like Chisliv.

The only problem I see (and it's not a big one) is that it would seem these guys would get death-locked against the Doviello! :eek:

even better, there is a restraunt called Panda Express, and Blizzard made an April Fool's joke off of it http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/pandaren-xpress.html

Pandaren? send them over to the Asian civ group... they are epic here is concept art
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Balance.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandarenbrewmaster.JPG
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren2.JPG
EDIT: looks like they aren't working, here are the hyperlinks
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Balance.jpg
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandarenbrewmaster.JPG
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Pandaren2.JPG

Well that's one way to make my idea of the Senshi (Japanese Bushi type civ) a bit more different than just importing in lots of 'standard' [civ4] Asian unit art!

But the archers and arquebeshers still need those flags on their backs!

but they help right?

Ugh. I have the right plugins, but cannot open .mdx files. Anyone know of a converter?

Ugh. I have the right plugins, but cannot open .mdx files. Anyone know of a converter?Found this (http://infoceptor.net/custom/warcraft3/tutorial2/) with Google. Does it help? (Well, apart from the tutorial pictures being broken. They're still is a link to a file converter.)

Woot. It very well might... One of the files it had linked to was Fadi's MDX importer, which I had been trying to find. Thank you. :goodjob:

Woot. It very well might... One of the files it had linked to was Fadi's MDX importer, which I had been trying to find. Thank you. :goodjob:You're welcome :)

Anyone knows what purpose do the tags <DeclareWarThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold> and <StopTradingThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold> serve compared to the same without "Them"? In LeaderHeadInfos.xml, of course.

Ah, I'm sorry, I don't like asking things this much but, after going through tutorials, I still don't know how to make that rounded edges for LH buttons. I'll keep searching but if someone had a link or something else, it would be nice :)

Edit: I settled some XML structure, so I only has to fill the holes (and add some files, namely the units and buildings ones). I only did the art files for Mvadang, just to test before going to sleep and I could find her in the pedia in the Ngomele article but she's not listed in the Leaders section. Why is that?

If I remember right, the BtS guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6570) explains in great detail what each LeaderHead field does. Except of course for the few I have added, but the Modders guide explains those ones if they were imported over to here.


Basically though, the THEM fields are for when you try to ask the leader via trade to declare war or stop trading. The others are for when they personally decide to do so.

So, it works now. Turns out I actually already HAD the converter, but someone had renamed it and did not provide a readme telling me how to use it... Got it working. Now I need something to convert 3ds to nif, but I can find that on this site. ;)

3DSMax can convert to nifs using 3DS on its own. simply export it as a .nif :)

If I remember right, the BtS guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6570) explains in great detail what each LeaderHead field does. Except of course for the few I have added, but the Modders guide explains those ones if they were imported over to here.


Basically though, the THEM fields are for when you try to ask the leader via trade to declare war or stop trading. The others are for when they personally decide to do so.This pdf is great. Never seen it before, wonder how. Thanks xienwolf :)

@Valkrionn: Can't wait :)

I did the button/flag of the Ngomele (http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5552/ngomelelogo.png) (credit to MorRokko (http://morrokko.deviantart.com/art/Hyena-Anthro-50672970)). However, I still don't have rounded edges... But for now, it's good. I still haven't finished to tweak Mvadang LeaderHeadInfo. I have to find the dimensions of the hero banner and the popup-pic banner. I think I have them somewhere.

Edit: I've got rounded edges working! It was hard and a bit mind-blowing at first but now I got it. I also found how to make my leaders appear in the pedia, I just had to change <bGraphicalOnly> to 0. I knew something was wrong with that value. BTW, it would be necessary for a whole bunch of minor leaders, since only three are visible in the pedia.

Edit2: I think I may use the Wildwood building (the 11) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314353) for the Council Tree. Does anyone know if this particular building has been used in FfH patch z?

Edit3: I'm having an issue with the promotions. I want that Shur Arcanes I need Gnoll race and Shur Arcanes II to need Shur Arcanes I. I do what I have to do in the XML and I get that Gnoll race leads to Aeron's Chosen, that Shur I don't need anything but leads to Air I and that Shur II doesn't need anything either and doesn't lead to anything. Here's my CIV4PromotionInfos.xml:<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- Created with the FfH editor by Kael -->
<!-- Sid Meier's Civilization 4 -->
<!-- Copyright Firaxis Games 2005 -->
<!-- -->
<!-- Promotion Infos -->
<Civ4PromotionInfos xmlns="x-schema:Ngomele_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">
<PromotionInfos>
<PromotionInfo>
<Type>PROMOTION_GNOLL</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_GNOLL</Description>
<Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
<TechPrereq>TECH_NEVER</TechPrereq>
<Button>Modules/Ngomele/Art/gnoll_button.dds</Button>
<bRace>1</bRace>
<iCombatHealPercent>15</iCombatHealPercent>
<PromotionAllows>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_SHUR1</Promotion>
</PromotionAllows>
<PromotionExcludes>
<Promotion>PROMOTION_CANNIBALIZE</Promotion>
</PromotionExcludes>
</PromotionInfo>
<PromotionInfo>
<Type>PROMOTION_SHUR1</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SHUR1</Description>
<Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
<PromotionPrereq>PROMOTION_GNOLL</PromotionPrereq>
<UnitCombats>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_BEAST</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
</UnitCombats>
<Button>Modules/Ngomele/Art/Shur1_button.dds</Button>
<iAIWeight>50</iAIWeight>
<PromotionNextLevel>PROMOTION_SHUR2</PromotionNextLevel>
</PromotionInfo>
<PromotionInfo>
<Type>PROMOTION_SHUR2</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_SHUR2</Description>
<Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
<PromotionPrereq>PROMOTION_SHUR1</PromotionPrereq>
<UnitCombats>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ADEPT</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_BEAST</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_DISCIPLE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_RECON</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
<UnitCombat>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE</UnitCombatType>
<bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
</UnitCombat>
</UnitCombats>
<Button>Modules/Ngomele/Art/Shur2_button.dds</Button>
<iAIWeight>50</iAIWeight>
<PromotionPrereqAnd>PROMOTION_CHANNELING2</PromotionPrereqAnd>
</PromotionInfo>
</PromotionInfos>
</Civ4PromotionInfos>(The indentations seemed fine in Notepad++.)

(I'm adding a new post because I'm not sure anyone will notice my edits)

I really need some help here, with the promotions. It seems to work fine when only PROMOTION_GNOLL is active in Ngomele_CIV4PromotionInfos.xml. When I add PROMOTION_SHUR1 et PROMOTION_SHUR2, all is going nuts. It says GNOLL leads to ACHERONS_CHOSEN, that SHUR1 leads to AIR1, that AIR1 needs SHUR1... I don't understand how my additions can interfere with that...

Also, I don't understand why some promotion (say, Entropy I) have a <PrereqPromotionAnd> but no <PrereqPromotion>.

I wonder if my CIV4PromotionInfos.xml (Orbis) isn't broken...

Well, another post for another purpose: the things that are working.

I've got the Shur Acanes button (http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/3/30/Glyph_of_Essence.jpg) and the Gnoll race button (http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/8/85/Scavenger_Strike.jpg). I choose to use some Guild Wars icons, as it as been done before in FfH and as I really like this game :) I modified the Gnoll race one to have it golden and the background red. I'm not very graphics oriented so it is really the work of an amateur.

I thought of something: maybe the Gnolls could have a certain chance (say 10%) of creating a "carcass pile" which an unit could take (as an item) and drag to an owned city. There, it could be used for adding food to the city or something like that. I liked the idea of scavenging enemies but not the idea of the food going directly into the cities even if far away. I thought of a bonus for the unit carrying the carcass pile (something along strength bonus and/or illness related) and an interest for transporting it back to a city.

BTW, any thought on the idea of improving tiles only by buildings rather than workers? I said it some posts before, along with pros and cons.

Anything which is not a number DOES NOT WORK in a module.

There are a few exceptions, but you save yourself major headaches if you just ignore those and follow the first line of this post as absolute law.

Ah, I forgot about that. All of your xml looked right, but Modules do not like promotions requiring other promotions. Has to be non-modular for that.

The carcass pile sounds good, should be rather unique.

Don't know about improving tiles by buildings... It would work, and be a unique playstyle, but I'd allow workers to at least build on resources.

Edit: As for the Gnoll units, I can load them up in 3ds max, apply the texture, view the animations, etc, but the moment I try to export it to a .nif bad things happen. I can view the nif in Nifviewer, but it shows up as a red blob in game. Gonna have to read up on how to do it... Issue is I'm having to use guides from two different games. :D

Anything which is not a number DOES NOT WORK in a module.

There are a few exceptions, but you save yourself major headaches if you just ignore those and follow the first line of this post as absolute law.But what about CivilizationInfos.xml and LeaderHeadInfos.xml? I have plenty of values that aren't not number in there. Seems to work, though.

@Valkrionn: Poor you! I hope you'll succeed :)

Ok, finall got some time to read the whole thread and must say - Great Idea!
I got my first modmodmod :D :D :D

Some comments on the race though.
First, all arcane unique units you proposed are based on nature magic. So I think they fit more as FoL priests replacement or unique units, with the last one replacing druid. Nature magic is more fitting for druid or priest I think.
Also, I do not think financial trait fits. Better make them spiritual, charismatic or smth.
I would exchange leader's portraits and change Vungu trait to spiritual, also replacing arcane.
They are very nationalistic and that is bad for buissnes, especially trade.

Another thing, more power for the males... ;)
Currently, I think Ngomele is the most gender-oppressive civ on erebus.
Why not make females have all the political power and dominating the army, while males having more to say when it comes to spiritual things (the druid line I proposed) or link them to arcane path (like in drow society - females rule and are priestesses of the dominating faith, while the best male can achieve is to be a mage or merchant).

I would change Banung to male and add another hero that is more militaristic and female.
There is no rule that non-agnostics can't have two (i.e. Doviello).
But the heroes need to be balanced - so 3 mana affinity and free mana nodes are way too powerful
I think they should not be agnostic, AV gnolls have certain charm, too ;)

Ok, that is all of my general flavour ideas. They are your civ and you will do as you want :)
Now to the mechanics:
I do not think modular version is a good idea - for now, it is the only modmod Orbis got (keep them coming!). So not much to go modular for.
Also, you can do much more with non-modular one.
Third, I strongly advise using the excell editor (if you do not have excell 2007, I think it is possible to make an open office version). It makes modders life much easier, plus will make mine easier when I get them to the main modmod. And I want to, when they are more or less ready.

Cannibalize integrated to racial promo is the way to go. Cannibalize normally requires undead unit (and it is race in Orbis), so will not be able to get both unless you will want them to.

The extra food yields from combat (great and fitting idea btw) are best done via Soul forge code (you can specify how far you want it to work, but it is, as you already know, python) and/or with promotion granted from combat with living unit, that can be used (i.e. via spell castable in a city) to fill granary err... smokehouse.

I do not think they should be able to build farms in forests. I think they should get even less food from farms, after all they do not eat many vegetables. But they can get a bonus from pastures/ camps/ foresters/yurts & goums. This is easily done ever since Jean Elcard developed the code (and it is in Orbis).

Wildwood building is used as Song of Autumn in Orbis. Actually, in 0.22c I use most of the elven buildings Walter posted. But if you need something, we can talk about it...

Regarding sounds, there are great gnoll sounds in both Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. If you can wait 2 weeks i wll check what can I get (need to finish some work I have first).

I will try to help if I can

Edit:
Checked the buttons, Shur Acanes does not look particulary nature-style, but should be ok. Gnoll race button looks nice, but we need to get it more race-like. I will try to take a break from preparing biology testbook (that is the work I am busy with recently) and make one.
For the button making, you can use the attached file. It has the most common backgrounds I use for Orbis buttons (photoshop needed)
It is an edited version of asioasioasio version. He posted the button templates for different graphic programs here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3994).

I was longing for your answer, Ahwaric!

Ok, finall got some time to read the whole thread and must say - Great Idea!
I got my first modmodmod :D :D :DGlad to hear it :)

Some comments on the race though.
First, all arcane unique units you proposed are based on nature magic. So I think they fit more as FoL priests replacement or unique units, with the last one replacing druid. Nature magic is more fitting for druid or priest I think.
Also, I do not think financial trait fits. Better make them spiritual, charismatic or smth.
I would exchange leader's portraits and change Vungu trait to spiritual, also replacing arcane.
They are very nationalistic and that is bad for buissnes, especially trade.In fact, I already changed the traits. Mvadang is Agg/Phi (I may trade Phi for Cha; I wanted to show that even though she's slightly impulsive and capable of taking violent decisions, she is the one who decided to unify the tribes, she's not just a brute) and Vungu is Spi/Arc (our minds connected here). When you say "exchange" portraits, you mean switch them? I don't know. They seemed to fit. Would you care expanding your thoughts on that?

As for the Shur (Arcane units), you may have a point. It may depend on what role is a Shur filling. I mean, a priest role is more of a buffer/healer (and is more religious) and a mage role is more of an attacker (well, at least its how it's in my mind, certainly due to too many rpg). Well, whatever the Shur role is (because I'm not sure yet [kind of funny, "I'm not Shur yet" :p]), I may do unique units anyway, for both disciple and arcane line.

Another thing, more power for the males... ;)
Why not make females have all the political power and dominating the army, while males having more to say when it comes to spiritual things (the druid line I proposed) or link them to arcane path (like in drow society - females rule and are priests of the dominating, while the best male can do is to be a mage or merchant).
I would change Banung to male and add another hero that is more militaristic and female. There is no rule that non-agnostics can't have two (i.e. doviello). And I think they should not be agnostic, AV gnolls have certain charm, too ;)
But the heroes need to be balanced - so 3 mana affinity and free mana nodes are way too powerfull.Hm, I'm not fond of the idea of giving power to males. It's not that I personnaly don't like them (well, it's not the point anyway), but in my mind, the Ngomele basically use males as tools, as means to get something. It could be production, pleasure, entertainment or children. So, in fact, they have a huge effect on the society, but they are kept down. They don't meddle in the spiritual affairs, the political or even the trade ones. I know you would want one female leader and one male (you stated that in the Eastern civ dev thread) but here, I will raise my hand against it, while I'm actually searching female leaders to compensate some other civs. It just doesn't fit lorewise. I hope that's okay :)

As for the hero, I planned on adding Nga Eye-Eater. I'm thinking about whether I add her as a minor leader (she had no big impact politically) or as a hero (militarilly she was quite the opposite: a person who would be revered by generations of warriors). Her being a hero, I could use her relationship with Banung to make a promotion that will trigger only when the two are in the same tile. Could be nice :)

Now to the mechanics:
I do not think modular version is a good idea - for now, it is the only modmod Orbis got (keep them coming!). So not much to go modular for.
Also, you can do much more with non-modular one.Okay, I get that. I will do it that way. It's nothing more complicated; I think it may be even simpler.

Third, I strongly advise using the excell editor (if you do not have excell 2007, I think it is possible to make an open office version). It makes modders life much easier, plus will make mine easier when I get them to the main modmod. And I want to, when they are more or less ready.I will see how that work. I never tried before.

Cannibalize integrated to racial promo is the way to go. Cannibalize normally requires undead unit (and it is race in Orbis), so will not be able to get both unless you will want them to.This is done. By the way, I was thinking of maybe adding something more to the gnoll race. I don't know what yet but something to distinguish it from the other race even more than just a heal bonus.

The extra food yields from combat (great and fitting idea btw) are best done via Soul forge code (you can specify how far you want it to work, but it is, as you already know, python) and/or with promotion granted from combat with living unit, that can be used (i.e. via spell castable in a city) to fill granary err... smokehouse.

I do not think they should be able to build farms in forests. I think they should get even less food from farms, after all they do not eat many vegetables. But they can get a bonus from pastures/ camps/ foresters/yurts & goums. This is easily done ever since Jean Elcard developed the code (and it is in Orbis).Yeah, it would be nice to see them more as "carnivorous grass-rubbers/tree-huggers". What you said about the promotion granted after fighting a living unit, it's more or less what I propose with the carcass pile. Maybe skipping the carcass pile phase and jumping directly to the promoted unit with food would reduce the load of clicks the player would have to do after big fights. Would it be possible to scale the amount of food a unit has? For example, after one combat, it gain Food Carried I promotion; after the second nothing (no chance, too bad!) but after the third it gained the Food Carried II promotion that will add even more to the smokehouse.

And as you mention it, it would be nice to change the granary and the smokehouse. The latter would stock more food, since they would be mostly carnivorous.

Wildwood building is used as Song of Autumn in Orbis. Actually, in 0.22c I use most of the elven buildings Walter posted. But if you need something, we can talk about it...Well, other than that, I don't know what to use. It isn't a priority, though.

Regarding sounds, there are great gnoll sounds in both Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. If you can wait 2 weeks i wll check what can I get (need to finish some work I have first).Yes, I can wait. I have BG2 actually, so maybe there is gnoll sounds in this one. I don't remember. However, I do remember that there's hyenas in Guild Wars Nightfall. I will see if I can get my hands on their sounds.

Anyway, I hope to help.Yes, you helped me having some more ideas :) Thanks for taking time to read and answer :goodjob:

Edit buttons-wise: I thought that too for the Shur Arcanes. I'm open to any better idea (for the gnoll race too). I checked through most of Guild Wars icons and didn't find something that appeals me. The glyphs (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glyph) have something in common that I thought I could use, even though it doesn't seem really "nature". This one was different from the others so I thought it would be nice for the Shur Arcanes promotions and the others for the spells.

Edit2: Maybe the archer signet (http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=File:Archer%27s_Signet.jpg&redirect=no) could be nice for the Shur Arcanes.

Thanks for the file :)

But what about CivilizationInfos.xml and LeaderHeadInfos.xml? I have plenty of values that aren't not number in there. Seems to work, though.

@Valkrionn: Poor you! I hope you'll succeed :)

That is one of those exceptions it is best to ignore. The actual REASON behind it, is the order in which XML files are loaded. If you open up the source code for the DLL and check out the file CvXMLLoadUtilitySet.cpp and search for the name of the base file you are modifying (ie - CIV4CivilizationInfos), everything which is loaded BEFORE that file you are allowed to reference modularly without issue. Anything loaded AFTER that file, and the file itself, cannot be referenced in a module properly. Alternatively, but much more difficult, you can look at CvInfos.cpp for the specific field you want to use text in, and if it is loaded during ::readPass2 (references same file) or ::readPass3 (references file to be loaded later), it won't work.


For most people, opening those files is too daunting, so without knowing the order files load in, it is best to just assume that only numbers will ever work.


Civ4GameSpeedInfo
Civ4TurnTimerInfo
Civ4WorldInfo
Civ4ClimateInfo
Civ4SeaLevelInfo
Civ4AdvisorInfos
Civ4TerrainInfos
Civ4EraInfos
Civ4UnitClassInfos
Civ4SpecialistInfos
Civ4VoteSourceInfos
Civ4TechInfos
Civ4ReligionInfo
Civ4FeatureInfos
Civ4AnimationInfos
Civ4AnimationPathInfos
Civ4BonusClassInfos
Civ4BonusInfos
Civ4PromotionInfos
Civ4TraitInfos
Civ4GoodyInfo
Civ4HandicapInfo
Civ4CursorInfo
Civ4CivicOptionInfos
Civ4UpkeepInfo
Civ4HurryInfo
Civ4SpecialBuildingInfos
Civ4CultureLevelInfo
Civ4VictoryInfo
Civ4CorporationInfo
Civ4RouteInfos
Civ4ImprovementInfos
Civ4BuildingClassInfos
Civ4BuildingInfos
Civ4SpecialUnitInfos
Civ4ProjectInfo
Civ4CivicInfos
Civ4LeaderHeadInfos
Civ4ColorVals
Civ4PlayerColorInfos
Civ4EffectInfos
Civ4EntityEventInfos
Civ4BuildInfos
Civ4UnitInfos
Civ4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos
Civ4CivilizationInfos
Civ4Hints
Civ4MainMenus
Civ4SlideShowInfos
Civ4SlideShowRandomInfos
Civ4WorldPickerInfos
Civ4SpaceShipInfos
Civ4YieldInfos
Civ4CommerceInfo
Civ4GameOptionInfos
Civ4MPOptionInfos
Civ4ForceControlInfos
Civ4EventInfos
Civ4EventTriggerInfos
Civ4SpellInfos

In fact, I already changed the traits. Mvadang is Agg/Phi (I may trade Phi for Cha; I wanted to show that even though she's slightly impulsive and capable of taking violent decisions, she is the one who decided to unify the tribes, she's not just a brute) and Vungu is Spi/Arc (our minds connected here). When you say "exchange" portraits, you mean switch them? I don't know. They seemed to fit. Would you care expanding your thoughts on that?
Yes, switch. I think that current Mvadang one is great for shaman. It looks powerfull and strong, but also barbaric. So, I think it is ok for shaman, but I am not sure fot the cunning leader Mvadang is
Vungu's one is more thief-like, but also better suited for clever leader (dancing tribe in the back...).
But that are just my feeling, as I already said, that is your civ and you decide.

As for the Shur (Arcane units), you may have a point. It may depend on what role is a Shur filling. I mean, a priest role is more of a buffer/healer (and is more religious) and a mage role is more of an attacker (well, at least its how it's in my mind, certainly due to too many rpg).
That is the reason I think unique druids would be better for them. I.e. in D&D gnolls do not have many arcane casters, but druids are very common. Also, it fits the whole green sea idea.
Druids are offensive spellcaster's too. At least in Orbis and most rpg I played.
Actually I think it would be best to add unique druidic clergy, while keeping normal FoL (and other) priests. FoL is very tree oriented, and Gnolls do not seem to be forest cretures. Also, unique FoL priests would require running FoL.

Hm, I'm not fond of the idea of giving power to males. It's not that I personnaly don't like them (well, it's not the point anyway), but in my mind, the Ngomele basically use males as tools, as means to get something.[...] I hope that's okay :)
I am not Ngomele male, so sure :) Just thought it would add some diversity, plus it seems hard to believe that they do not revolt if not having any rigths outside house...
I do not think all civs should have equal number of male and female leaders. In case of Ngomele male leader, save for minor rebel one (mage? :mischief: ), does not fit at all. I want fun leaders, plus thought it woulb be fun to add a female general leader for asian civ.

Regarding Orbis editor, wait till later today, as I am going to finally release version c, and it comes with new editor version.

Would it be possible to scale the amount of food a unit has? For example, after one combat, it gain Food Carried I promotion; after the second nothing (no chance, too bad!) but after the third it gained the Food Carried II promotion that will add even more to the smokehouse.
Scaling is certainly possible in python, need to check if it is in xml. You might need to add a blank promotion to get it exactly as you described.
Food carried I -> food carried I (upgraded) -> food carried II
So it might b better to just add a chance to promote I -> II or three promotions of different "capacity"

Yes, you helped me having some more ideas :) Thanks for taking time to read and answer :goodjob:
No problem :)
Archer signet is great!
I will try to make the gnoll race promotion today and post it here

So basically in regards to the male/female relations, the Ngomele are the opposite of the Kzin, right?

Another option to think about is the whole concept of the structure of a lion's pride. The women do almost all the work but they are led by 1 (or two depending on the size) Alpha Male and the rest of the males are just sort of out of luck. Same with gorillas actually. One big kahuna male and the rest just have to suffer.

So perhaps some of their heroes are males trying to gain enough status to be 'elected' the new Alpha Males by the Woman's Council (or what ever they have).

Even with the Alpha Male leading, looking at lions, his job is still mostly ceremonial, looking regal and roaring from time to time and the like.

The males also have to defend it's territory from marauding Hyenas...

So basically in regards to the male/female relations, the Ngomele are the opposite of the Kzin, right?

Another option to think about is the whole concept of the structure of a lion's pride. The women do almost all the work but they are led by 1 (or two depending on the size) Alpha Male and the rest of the males are just sort of out of luck. Same with gorillas actually. One big kahuna male and the rest just have to suffer.

So perhaps some of their heroes are males trying to gain enough status to be 'elected' the new Alpha Males by the Woman's Council (or what ever they have).

Even with the Alpha Male leading, looking at lions, his job is still mostly ceremonial, looking regal and roaring from time to time and the like.

Hyenas ARE actually lead by the alpha female so Ngomele are quite realistic. Perhaps you could create a second civ with Lion-people. Your idea sounds quite cool. I play an p&p system with lion-people and many other exotic races that aren't used yet and I like this system a lot, so you had at least one that would enjoy it :D.

Well, to settle things about the social structure of the Ngomele: it's more or less like the one of the spotted hyena. There's an alpha female and different rank in the tribe; the males are the lowest. They are the one "exchanged" with other tribes instead of the females. They don't really matter. They don't even raise babies; the sole area where they can "shine" is as actors; but not as playwriters, though. The reason they don't revolt is the exact same reason human females didn't revolt until recently: 1) females Ngomele are bigger and stronger than males; 2) it's deep in their mind.

There exist(ed) some examples of tribe leaded by a male: Migeng of the Bwungi tribe (see Mvadang description in first post). However, he was killed during the assault of the Veve tribe (Mvadang's). The people of the Bwungi weren't all exterminated nor enslaved: they were given the free will to follow Mvadang (now de facto leader of the Bwungi) or to flee. Many followed her and a few fled somewhere else. But the Bwungi are not said to have been "unified" since they have been defeated by force. The two other tribes that I haven't talked about yet are the Mvadu, leaded by Dimdi the Black (Big-Heart) and the Wugan, leaded by Wiri Big-Heart (female). The second was enslaved by the first and Wiri Big-Heart was executed publicly by Dimdi the Black (btw, some Mvadu began to call her Wiri Not-So-Big-Heart since this day, because the execution was to extract her heart and eat it). The Mvadu are sort of the arch-enemies of the Ngomele: they're pretty powerful and they refuse to be unified. Open war is not declared but tensions exists. Without the existence of the Council, Mvadang would already be waring against them :) I thought it was time to talked about those tribes.

Since Orbis 0.22c is out, I will take a look at that Excel file.

Perhaps the Ngomeles are a lot like Amazons...There are quite a few similarities I think.

Maybe they are Amazons

Kind of like Amazons but not exactly since their exists Ngomele males. They aren't just a bunch of women living together and then proceeding to attack a village in order to steal babies/procreate with males. Women have the power and don't want to share it. I can understand that :p

Well that makes a lot of sense, in that males have to be entertainers. I mean if the males are smaller (many species are like this) then other than just being a walking sperm bank, you'd better make yourself useful to the females in some way.

I did a lot of study on biological psychology and evolution in college and many studies point out that the 'strongest' in the old 'survival of the strongest' wasn't always the BMOC jock type but often the most glib or the best at making alliances. Mike Tyson is all that but it doesn't mean squat if Bill Gates convinces 4 others to help him bushwack Tyson in the showers. So while Mr. Studmuffin might be good to look at to your average Ngomele female, it's Mr. Class Clown that probably will get the better deal since he is more 'useful' on a day to day basis.

Another thing they found (and easily seen in rock stars) is that singers and guys who can just tell a good story or funny can be very attractive to women regardless of how they look. I mean I can't see why any woman would find Mick Jagger attractive, but there they are, throwing their knickers onto the stage at him. :eek:

Perhaps the Ngomele might have a 'medic' type character called a bard or something that has, as one of it's powers, the ability to give small culture boosts when it's in a city like you can do (but destroys the unit) with missionaries.

The reason they don't revolt is the exact same reason human females didn't revolt until recently: 1) females Ngomele are bigger and stronger than males; 2) it's deep in their mind.
Well, in our history women were anything but helpless. Queens, epresses, leaders... Even if not in the open, they were the neck that makes the head move ;)
The difference between us and hienas is the complexity of the social structure and the intelligence.
that the 'strongest' in the old 'survival of the strongest' wasn't always the BMOC jock type but often the most glib or the best at making alliances.
Actually, it is never the survival of the strongest, but 'survival of the fittest'. That is a huge difference. Males of some species come in two varietes (which can be connected i.e. to their age). Big males that have their own harem and small ones,. But it does not mean the small ones do not reproduce, some of them pretend to be female, try to look even smaller, and get to meet females in big male harem...

Anyway, I apologize for strating this discussion, it comes more and more off topic. Here I stop and will not talk of it any more, hoping it will end ;)
Since Orbis 0.22c is out, I will take a look at that Excel file.
Two things you need to be aware of before you start. First, to export xml files, it needs to be in the same folder as assets one (and there need to be xml inside and proper folders inside xml one, i.e. gameinfo, art etc.)
Actually, I have two copies, one is in safe place with allthe proper catalogs created, and I just copy it over to mod location.

Second, there is something broken with promotion sheet, so you better insert promotions before the last one, as there is some "stop exporting" procedura I can't identify. Otherwise, it works nice :)

Kind of like Amazons but not exactly since their exists Ngomele males. They aren't just a bunch of women living together and then proceeding to attack a village in order to steal babies/procreate with males. Women have the power and don't want to share it. I can understand that :p

That is far from the only view of the Amazons. While a few myths about them would assert that, more of them claimed that the Amazon's just treated their husbands the way Greeks treated their wives, as housekeepers and nearly chattel. I believe that in some versions they were a tribe where men and women were equals, and that many scholars think that that was likely the case for the real tribes on whom the exaggerated tales were based.

While they are usually thought to have been from Asia Minor, I kind of like the theory that they were actually North African. The Berber word for Berber (Amazigh) happens to sound a lot like Amazon, and before Arab domination they were known to have been rather gender egalitarian, with their most famous generals being female. Apparently the ruins of ancient Berber forts bear a striking resemblance to amazon forts found in Greek art.

Well, all I have to say is that it's all interesting stuff. It pleases me to think of the Ngomele males as entertainers of all sorts: dancers, singers, maybe athletes too. Since the Mbumgwu is all about playing battles, it would be no surprise to have quite a few athletes in it participating in other games. Crowd-pleasers. Yeah, I fell it fits :)

@MagisterCultuum: I have to admit that I didn't know that even though I'm particularly attracted to the "Amazons" myth. Maybe I just never checked the good sources. I thank you for that bit of culture :)

Well, in our history women were anything but helpless. Queens, epresses, leaders... Even if not in the open, they were the neck that makes the head moveYes, that's right. Somehow, I knew you would answer me that :p Maybe it's how Migeng became a leader. He was the favorite of the alpha female of his tribe and, when she died, rather than another female taking are place, he took it. Somehow, he would have "crowd-pleased" all the Bwungi ladies. One thing that would make his case rare is that there is no idea of couple as we know it. The alpha female as not only one male who would be the de facto alpha male. She has favorites. They take time to bond, so they are a few but generally more than one. I don't have thought about their status right now. However, a relation such as the one between Nga Eye-Eater and Banung the Blind (except the weird way they bonded...) is commoner and leads frequently to inheritance of power.

Apart from that, thank you for your tips on using the excel sheets. I was totally in the dark when I saw that. I thought "well, beautiful indeed but how do I modify anything with that?" Now I got it :)

Perhaps the Ngomele might have a 'medic' type character called a bard or something that has, as one of it's powers, the ability to give small culture boosts when it's in a city like you can do (but destroys the unit) with missionaries.That's what leaded me to my thinking about crowd-pleasers. It's a really good idea. I'll try to implant them... not sure how though, especially in regards to the priests. Because I will make them quite liking FoL (using that FavoriteReligion field that don't seem to be used by any leader), and I will do them some unique priests. Maybe I will just drop the +x culture ability from them. I need to brainstorm (that's my unique ability: brainstorming, take 5 turns to cast; result: many units spawn in 1 tile of me, all unique and with unseen abilities! Wow!)

Thanks all for your answers! :goodjob:

I'm not sure the Favorite Religion tag really does anything except for telling the leader what to choose when founding a religion with the Pick Religion option is on, which it isn't in FfH.

A large ReligionWeightModifier would be more effective. You could block the other religions entirely with -100 values for them.

Btw does anyone know Empress Theodora? That is a nice counter example of women only being opressed in the Dark Ages and such.

Actually, it is never the survival of the strongest, but 'survival of the fittest'. That is a huge difference.

I know that; I was typing quickly between errands today. :crazyeye: I guess the point I wanted to make is folks like Nietzsche help propagate the idea that the strongest is the fittest which of course help lead to a lot of the Eugenics movements in Europe and the US.

UPDATE: Oops! I guess I should have read your whole reply. The off-topic topic that says, "I'm not dead yet!" =0

Actually, it is never the survival of the strongest, but 'survival of the fittest'. That is a huge difference.

:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Charles Darwin

:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Charles Darwin

I know I should have resisted...But I couldn't...
Fittest is the most adaptable...Obvious enough, I guess.

Greeks happened to have women in very good treatment. They were a significant part of the society and comprised a good deal of the priesthood. They were well respected.
In fact, much better than in any other culture at the time.
In addition, Greeks had Godesses to represent wisdom and virtue and even War Virtues(Artemis was the Godess of Hunt and Athena was both a Godess of wisdom and war), while in most other cultures at the time, female godesses only represented fertility( the equivalent of Demetra in a sort), and/or punishment(the whole consept about Issis is a bit complicated). Most of the Roman pantheon was taken from the Greek culture, and most people are best familiar with the Roman names of the Greek Gods/Godesses.

Of course, there were differences in treatment in different city states. For your information, in Sparta, women were trained in the art of war and athletism. Some cities, like Athens, dispised Sparta for this, as well as the usuall power struggle issues.

Sorry to go OT but I study Latin and had a seminar about the role of the woman in the Antiquity, so I couldn't resist ;). I will go back to topic soon I promise :D.
In fact Greeks treated the average woman very bad.
No woman had the right to possess anything on her own. Instead she had a kyrios that controlled everything in her life (mostly her husband or her father). Women and men did not socialize together, so when a man had guests the woman had to stay in the backrooms. She only lived to bear children and manage the household and was expected to remain invisible at home. The best wife, according to a Greek writer of this time, was the one about whom the least was said, whether it be good or bad.
Male desire for compassion and sexuality was exclusively searched outside the marriage and nobody was interested in female desire for compassion as they were owned by men.
There was a minority of women that had at least some rights like very sucessful hetairas i.e. well educated courtesans that had an own house to entertain people there, but that's it.
Ok, Rome was even worse and on the whole women had a very hard time everywhere in these times, but there are countries that were different like Egypt and Celtia. In these countries women had the same rights to own property as men (in Greece the kyrios decided everything for her), socialized together (Unless in Greece men and women received her guests together) and women could divorce on their own without any preconditions. In Celtia they even received the money of their husband if he was unable to perform his marital duties due to impotence, interest in other women or homosexuality.
Very interesting links concerning this theme are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Gender_and_sexual_norms
http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/index.htm

Not to get totally off topic, but the Greeks also had a practice where romantic love was usually between a older man and a young 'boy'.

At first blush this doesn't make sense, but after training up for 3 years and then spending a year in Afghanistan, it makes sense. In many cultures that prize virginity, the chance of a young man having sex is about zero. Then there is the the issue of bride price; it isn't uncommon in modern Afghanistan that a man can't afford a wife until he's 35! (Which is why a lot of Afghans brave the danger to work with the US/NATO; they can make a lot in a short time)

So just like in prison, if you can't get women, you get what you can. I think over time a whole 'mystique' was set up that said women were inferior and only good for breeding to try to convince younger men that the whole Athenian pederasty was actually a good thing.

In modern Afghanistan, we had what we Americans called "Man Love Thursday" where we knew the Afghans would do things they could 'confess' on Friday. (Their holy day akin to Sunday.) Sometimes on Saturday formation, we'd see some Afghan soldiers with fingernail polish. Sure it's easy to smirk but it does show that these guys aren't gay; they are doing the best they can in a bad situation even if that means some of them have to do a bit of drag to be the 'woman' for the night. I mean how many of you guys out there would like to be a virgin (at least with women) till you were 35?

Sorry to go OT but I study Latin and had a seminar about the role of the woman in the Antiquity, so I couldn't resist ;).

I don't suppose the seminar gave you a complete list of the different Greek City-States and how they were treated differently in each of them. In any case, I want to apologise to Opera for getting this thread discussing the development of a quite interesting civilization so much off topic.

I am sorry for this, I will not go on arguing about it.

I second that. Guys, if you want to continue this discussion please start a separate topic for it.

I feel more and more guilty every time a new off-topic post shows up here. I am the one that started this discussion in the first place.
Opera, please forgive me, that was not my intention. :(

EDIT: Also, sorry that I the gnoll icon is not ready yet. Too much work. But I promise to make one.

@ opera: Could you perhaps edit your first post, so we can see what's the current way you want to have your civ and which are the points that you still consider unfinished? Perhaps then ideas will flow better.

@Everyone: Don't feel too bad for off-topic-ing the thread. It would happen eventually and it happened about a very interesting discussion. It's not like you were talking about what panties you wear. Hum, whatever, you're all forgiven :)

@Ahwaric: I'm not in a rush. Especially when it is for something from someone else. I'm not in position to hurry things. You don't owe me anything; however, I kind of think I owe you a modmod ;)

@Imuratep & @Everyone: It's done now. I've edited my first post. It's a bit messy and full of useless explanations but I listed things so to make it quite easy to see which one needs talk. I may have forgotten things however. Like the leaders' traits... I'll add this.

I'm particularly in the dark when it comes to the Shur. I have to think about it and reread the thread because I've lost the ideas...

Anyway, again, thanks everyone for your concern :goodjob:

Edit: For now, I've just the civilization and the leaders added in XML. I'm waiting till I have much more Settled informations before beginning to really throw myself into coding and such. So it may take a bit of time. I hope you understand :)

Settled
- The Ngomele are a deeply matriarchal society.
- They have a strong affinity to Nature Mana.
- They will have two non-religious heroes (Banung the Blind and (Raw idea) Nga Eye-Eater)
- They are nationalists.
- They have a good synergy with FoL.
- The Gnoll race has +15% heal after combat ([Raw idea] it's 5% more than Cannibalize).
- They are carnivorous.
Brainstormed ideas
- Banung the Blind: needs to be more of a buffer/healer than a warrior. This role would be filled by Nga Eye-Eater.
- World spell: popping a random number of Nature nodes is too much. Needs rethinking.
- They can gather food after combat (promotion) and then take it back to a city and add it in. However, it may have its limits if a great number a combat is fought; it would need to add many level of the same promotion.
- Soul Forge-like building: is it still necessary since they can create food from combat?
- The whole magic system of Ngomele needs thinking, being the arcane/divine lines or the unique spells. For now, the Shur exists, they are thought as arcane units and they have access to Shur Arcanes. Someone proposed that the Shur eventually replaces the Druid and thus replace the disciple line (if I'm not mistaken) rather than the Arcane. I would like both of those to be replaced, actually.
- Males: symbolized by the "Entertainer" unit, one who would have the possibility of increasing the culture/happiness of a city while he stays in it.
- How to implement the fact that they are carnivorous? First, we have the food from combat. Second, the heal from combat. But then we have to think about resources. They wouldn't use corn, rice and wheat the same way others do. Two ideas here: 1) adding a new improvement different from farm and only buildable by Gnoll worker that would give mostly commerce from non-animal food resources; 2) siimply adjusting farm yields. Someone mentioned adjusting pasture yields too.

Personally, I would say change the farm yields. Increase the commerce, decrease the food... Maybe even change the +:health: to +:)? After all, every one of the grain resources can be converted to Alcohol....
For the pasture, I'd say leave the yields alone. The way you described the civ, it sounds like they should have a lot of small cities, which less food resources would reinforce.


Raw ideas
- Improving tiles by exclusive use of buildings; need an idea for what to do with resources.

I like the idea. Maybe have a cheap worker that can do nothing but improve resource tiles? The Scions do this for the :health: resources.


- Unique FoL heroes. Maybe just one FoL hero altogether to balance their two other heroes?
- Making it so that Banung and Nga have a bonus effect when on the same tile.
- No other choice but to adopt FoL. I can see gnolls being AV, Kilmorph or, why not, Empy, but the Ngomele, not so much. Maybe their neighbors, though.

I don't know if I like that... Maybe rationalize it as the Council members being corrupted by the power that comes with a united civilization? Or leaders of another tribe staging a coup? Having them able to adopt just the one religion would make them unnecessarily weak, as they'd be handicapped if the Elves beat them to it. If you don't want them following another religion, I'd say make them 'Agnostic' in the same way the Scions are, with units and buildings representing the Green Sea.


- Increasing the uniqueness of the Gnoll race; make it so that it is not just a "Cannibalize+".

I generally think of Gnolls as living on open plains, so maybe a bonus reflecting that?


- I thought making all highest tier unit (of all lines) at least affinity nature +1. Maybe it would be overpowered. Could be balanced by an inability of using mithril weapons? Or even iron.

Blocking iron weapons would work I think. Generally wouldn't think of a gnoll as being able to work metal very well anyway, but maybe the Ngomele are different. :D


- I thought about a ritual invoking a "Nature spirit" building in each city, giving the "Osmose with the Sea" promotion that would grant +1 additional nature affinity. This ritual would require a high AC. It would be a kind of "seeking help from inside nature itself".
- How to implement the fact that they are nationalists? I thought of a building (the Council Tree maybe) increasing significantly internal trade routes yields. Or perhaps adding a civic doing something in those lines. Pushing them towards a "closed empire".
Unknown
- How are treated other unit lines? What about mounted units? Would gnolls mount horses?


I have trouble imagining a solely carnivorous civilization using horses as anything but food. I'd say put them on a predator, like the goblins.... I'd say a wolf, but since it's been done, maybe a savanna predator? Hyena, Lion, something like that.

I'd actually put in a Ngomele only improvement for Horses, removing the hammer bonuses and increasing food yields. If they're just food, they wouldn't be doing any work to represent the hammers after all.

Oh yeah, and when you make the cities gain food from combat, make sure that some races provide you with no meat. Last time I checked, there weren't much food on a skeleton

what if you have a building to represent the grains being used as feed (for livestock)? 1 food per grain (every unit) scalable by map size?

It is possible to connect a certain chance to find a new resource to an improvement, isn't it (Mines --> Gold, gems, copper etc.)? Replace the farm by another improvement that acts like a slightly worse farm, but has a certain chance to create sheep, cows, horses or pigs. Additionally this would be a way to make nature mana better for them as IMHO it fits quite good to increase this chance for each nature mana ressource you own (analogue to earth mana). And as Ngomele would be the only ones that could build this improvement the increasement created by nature mana only affected them and thus they felt more unique.

major issue: earth Mana affects ALL chance to find resources, however the mine is the only improvement to do that...

@civ_king: well, in fact it is the quarry. But it is easily doable with some XML tweaks. However, it for it being exclusive to Ngomele, it would need a new improvement. Maybe a "Small granary", +2:commerce:, 25 turns before becoming a "Granary" which would have +1:hammers: from extra work, +2:commerce:, 40 turns before becoming a "Big granary" with +1:hammers: and +3:commerce:. It would need a food resource (wheat, rice, corn, olives?) and would give +1:) rather than +1:health: because they would mostly use them to create beverages. But this raise the question of health... Since they would lack some I guess.

Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.

what if you have a building to represent the grains being used as feed (for livestock)? 1 food per grain (every unit) scalable by map size?This could be great. The said building would require either horse, cow, sheep or pig AND either corn, rice or wheat.

A thing I just thought: researching Agriculture won't make any sense for them, would it? I'm not sure.

Oh yeah, and when you make the cities gain food from combat, make sure that some races provide you with no meat. Last time I checked, there weren't much food on a skeleton Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.

I generally think of Gnolls as living on open plains, so maybe a bonus reflecting that?I think it has been mentioned before. It's what I'm thinking too. What kind of bonus though? Movement? Attack, defense? Yields could be good. They may also have great bias against tundra... so even reducing tundra yields could be interesting (they wouldn't like Illians :)).

I have trouble imagining a solely carnivorous civilization using horses as anything but food. I'd say put them on a predator, like the goblins.... I'd say a wolf, but since it's been done, maybe a savanna predator? Hyena, Lion, something like that.

I'd actually put in a Ngomele only improvement for Horses, removing the hammer bonuses and increasing food yields. If they're just food, they wouldn't be doing any work to represent the hammers after all.That's a good idea. It would nice for hyena-like to ride lions :p However, wouldn't it be weird if they required horses to build lion-mounted units?

What about "ranch" for the improvement you proposed? Could work for any livestock. But remember that even though they wouldn't mount them, as we don't mount cows, horses could still be used for other things, I think.

For the pasture, I'd say leave the yields alone. The way you described the civ, it sounds like they should have a lot of small cities, which less food resources would reinforce.Could you explain? I'm afraid I don't understand :blush: But as you mention it, I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (:hammers:, :food: and :commerce:) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

I don't know if I like that... Maybe rationalize it as the Council members being corrupted by the power that comes with a united civilization? Or leaders of another tribe staging a coup? Having them able to adopt just the one religion would make them unnecessarily weak, as they'd be handicapped if the Elves beat them to it. If you don't want them following another religion, I'd say make them 'Agnostic' in the same way the Scions are, with units and buildings representing the Green Sea.The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs. And, when you think hard (really) about it, FoL isn't that much close. FoL is close to nature, yes, but it's a tree-hugger religion. The Green Sea isn't about trees... Making them agnostic would free the divine line; I could make it entirely unique without the need of replacing existing units. They wouldn't have to research FoL before elves to be powerful.

@civ_king: well, in fact it is the quarry. But it is easily doable with some XML tweaks. However, it for it being exclusive to Ngomele, it would need a new improvement. Maybe a "Small granary", +2:commerce:, 25 turns before becoming a "Granary" which would have +1:hammers: from extra work, +2:commerce:, 40 turns before becoming a "Big granary" with +1:hammers: and +3:commerce:. It would need a food resource (wheat, rice, corn, olives?) and would give +1:) rather than +1:health: because they would mostly use them to create beverages. But this raise the question of health... Since they would lack some I guess.

The lack of health just reinforces the 'Small cities' idea. :)

Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.

This could be great. The said building would require either horse, cow, sheep or pig AND either corn, rice or wheat.

A thing I just thought: researching Agriculture won't make any sense for them, would it? I'm not sure.

Not in and of itself, but it's required to get to animal handling so it would still be very important.


Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.

I think it has been mentioned before. It's what I'm thinking too. What kind of bonus though? Movement? Attack, defense? Yields could be good. They may also have great bias against tundra... so even reducing tundra yields could be interesting (they wouldn't like Illians :)).

I'd say a movement bonus, personally.... And I could see reducing tundra yields. They'd have an advantage in plains, but both desert and tundra would give them nothing.


That's a good idea. It would nice for hyena-like to ride lions :p However, wouldn't it be weird if they required horses to build lion-mounted units?

I'd just remove the horse requirement, and increase the hammer cost.


What about "ranch" for the improvement you proposed? Could work for any livestock. But remember that even though they wouldn't mount them, as we don't mount cows, horses could still be used for other things, I think.

That would work, though I still have trouble thinking of a predator using food to work. :lol: At the very least, the horse would work it's heart out... If not, it's dead. :crazyeye:


Could you explain? I'm afraid I don't understand :blush: But as you mention it, I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (:hammers:, :food: and :commerce:) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

What I meant was that if you change the Farm yields, I wouldn't increase Pasture yields to compensate. This would mean they have less available food than other civs, which both makes sense seeing as they're only eating meat, and forces you into the 'many small cities' mind frame.


The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs. And, when you think hard (really) about it, FoL isn't that much close. FoL is close to nature, yes, but it's a tree-hugger religion. The Green Sea isn't about trees... Making them agnostic would free the divine line; I could make it entirely unique without the need of replacing existing units. They wouldn't have to research FoL before elves to be powerful.

Personally, I don't really think it 'agnostic' if you provide unique replacements. Agnosticism the way the Grigori have it isn't suitable for most civs, but the way the Scions have it should work.

or you could add 30% :hammers:if they have a lion cage in the city for lion mounted units :)

(I'm adding a new post because I'm not sure anyone will notice my edits)

I really need some help here, with the promotions. It seems to work fine when only PROMOTION_GNOLL is active in Ngomele_CIV4PromotionInfos.xml. When I add PROMOTION_SHUR1 et PROMOTION_SHUR2, all is going nuts. It says GNOLL leads to ACHERONS_CHOSEN, that SHUR1 leads to AIR1, that AIR1 needs SHUR1... I don't understand how my additions can interfere with that...

Also, I don't understand why some promotion (say, Entropy I) have a <PrereqPromotionAnd> but no <PrereqPromotion>.

I wonder if my CIV4PromotionInfos.xml (Orbis) isn't broken...

I recently started playing about with the promotions file in base FfH for my own nefarious ends and had similar problems. I added a comment line after Woodsman II at the bottom of the file and then all the promotions I wanted to add and found the dependencies in the civilopedia were out.

Eventually, by a process of elimination I found the problem was the comment line I had added <!-- My mod starts here --> seemed to cause the XML parser difficulties. I took out the comment and everything worked fine. I don't know if you are having the same problem, but you might want to give it a look.

Some more ideas: Someone recently published a link to the original Fall from Heaven mod in the modmods, scenarios and maps and it occurs to me that the Ngomele could dovetail with some of the loose ends for the civilizations in that mod.

The antecedents of gnolls could be a mongrels formed from the Tigran tribes and Goblins. Their mythology and plays could refer to Sable the Wise, Yaka the Wizard, Gotrul the Strong and Rupsta the Cunning. (Your flavour text for their "actor" unit could be about a troupe rehearsing for these roles for their next performance.)

Another cool idea would be to use the artwork for Treehome as the Ngomele Palace. The background here could be that the gnolls reclaimed the original Treehome following the end of the Age of Ice. This also provides a source of tension between the Ngomele and the Lljosfar / Svaltafar, which could be reflected in a -1 diplomatic penalty.

Regarding gnolls & food.

First of all, farm is not just for growing vegetables. I missed it at first, but every farm has a little of all, grains, other plants, pigs etc.
Well, that is the traditional way, modern commercial farms are specialized. But FfH, even with Orbis expansion into renaissance, is hardly a modern world.
So you can just say - they grow grains and then feed it to pigs. And then take care of the pigs... So, no changes necessary.
Also, I am against special improvement. All special things on the map for just one civ should be kept to minimum. I do not see why it should be added for Ngomelle. Plus, you can always add some extra yields for yurts. They already fit quite well the improvement you want to add (including discovering animal resources).
Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.
Nature mana is already increasing discovery chance. But there is no way to tie it to specific improvement or civ. So, you have bigger chance to get new pigs with earth mana and gold with nature... :crazyeye:
Well, not something I want, but splitting it is not possible without total rewrite of this part of the code...

A special building can be a good idea, say +5% with every animal that can be eaten.
I see no problem with :hammers: from horses and cows. We eat cows, don't we?

Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.
It will if you make it to. That is how mechanos reviving works - it is a modified soul forge code.
Recently revived units are not considered alive, so can't be revived again.

Bonus for plains is a good idea (food or some combat +%), but I would not penalize them for tundra. It is already worthless enough, and most food you get from tundra is from hunting, which gnolls are good at.

The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs.
As I have already said in Dao thread, I think agnosticism should be special. Either it has Grigori/Mechanos (and partially Scions)) form with no religion, or the civ must be extremly fanatical in their national believs (Scions, Illians). Ngomele is neither.
There are eight major ones that cross civ boundaries on greater scale but every civ has it's own special religion. That is what special pagan temples are for. You can add some extra things, too, but keep them balanced. Not every unique unit has to replace something. Steam tanks do not ;) You just need to balance the civ on the macro scale.
That is why I talked of replacing druids and adding 2 "lesser druids" stages. In my mind both the green sea and gnolls fit druidism very well.

Also, every civ has it's own rites and forms of the major religions.
Look at our world, i.e. christianity is extremally split. Even so centralized branch as catholicism is a bit diffirent in different countries. Orthodox and protestant communities are even more diverse. And when any of it gets to africa, it gets transformed even more.
So, FoL is all about blood and hunt when Calabim (or Charadon) interpret it, survival of the fittest but also cooperation if you ask Thudr or Mahala, or the typical elven version when it is, well, elven version.

So, I guess it's my turn to post ;)

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH. To balance this loss, they would have some benefits. While I can totally imagine them this way, I think it would be sad not to get the relationship bonus from religion, especially for Mvadang who is a kind of Tokugawa in relations. You will seek every point to have her pleased with you.

Horses: I think this is settled. They don't use horses for mounting but for work and meat, as cows. Why do they choose lions instead of horses? Well, maybe they just didn't know they existed and preferred to stick to their lions. Maybe they're not well adapted to them either. However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?

Besides, any thoughts on lions being Ngomele's mounts? I think it's nice. Would be a bit tricky for the graphics though, won't it? But I'm not sure if it fits. I considered not giving them mounted units but that would just cripple them a lot.

@Valkrionn about less food: the fun thing is I began a new creature in Spore (you may have heard of this game where you create your creature which would grow into an intelligent species) and made it carnivorous. When in Tribe mode, where I have to gather food for the tribe, I had a real problem: not enough food from hunting. There was three or four pack of beasts to hunt but they soon disappeared (wonder why they didn't regrow since I left two specimens each). I had to find three species and tam then in order to pack them in a ranch thing where they produced eggs; food. If this creature had been omnivorous, it could have used the many fruits that were surrounding me and the fish (btw, I don't why carnivorous beasts can't eat fishes in Spore).

Autoquote:
I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (:food:, :commerce: and :hammers:) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.Any reaction on this?

A special building can be a good idea, say +5% with every animal that can be eaten.I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong :)

Terrain bonus: A plain movement bonus could be nice. I don't know if plains would benefit them for attack or defense though. But for gameplay reasons, why not? Food for sure, I think. But it would give them, say, 2:food: 1:hammers: in plains and 2:food: in grassland. Hmm...

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas. However, I don't really like to think that gnolls descend from Goblins and Tigrans. They just existed as Goblins and Tigrans (which I'm not sure exists in FfH lore now. But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people :)). Should I came with who created them?

Edit: Oh, I made both leaders neutral. I think it fits as they are neither especially good nor especially evil. Yes they eat people after defeating them but that's not something that makes you evil. Well, it could but I don't think it is enough. They mostly want to survive, after all. They don't care (don't know?) about angels, gods and the like.

So, I guess it's my turn to post ;)

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH. To balance this loss, they would have some benefits. While I can totally imagine them this way, I think it would be sad not to get the relationship bonus from religion, especially for Mvadang who is a kind of Tokugawa in relations. You will seek every point to have her pleased with you.

Horses: I think this is settled. They don't use horses for mounting but for work and meat, as cows. Why do they choose lions instead of horses? Well, maybe they just didn't know they existed and preferred to stick to their lions. Maybe they're not well adapted to them either. However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?

In the CivilizationInfos.xml, there should be yield modifiers available... I believe Ahwaric used them to remove one food from Elven farms. I suggested a carnivore mount mostly because I don't think horses would EVER be calm enough to handle carrying a Gnoll into battle... The stress of a predator on it's back, coupled with that from the fighting, would just be too much for the poor thing. :lol:


Besides, any thoughts on lions being Ngomele's mounts? I think it's nice. Would be a bit tricky for the graphics though, won't it? But I'm not sure if it fits. I considered not giving them mounted units but that would just cripple them a lot.

@Valkrionn about less food: the fun thing is I began a new creature in Spore (you may have heard of this game where you create your creature which would grow into an intelligent species) and made it carnivorous. When in Tribe mode, where I have to gather food for the tribe, I had a real problem: not enough food from hunting. There was three or four pack of beasts to hunt but they soon disappeared (wonder why they didn't regrow since I left two specimens each). I had to find three species and tam then in order to pack them in a ranch thing where they produced eggs; food. If this creature had been omnivorous, it could have used the many fruits that were surrounding me and the fish (btw, I don't why carnivorous beasts can't eat fishes in Spore).

I had the same issue with my Carnivorous race, but really, I don't think it's a problem. As the civilization advances, they are forced to move from hunting, to farming/raising animals.


I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (:food:, :commerce: and :hammers:) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.
Any reaction on this?

I like it, but it might be a bit too similar to the Lost Lands civic... Although that's not too big of an issue.


I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong :)

I'm sure you can. Would definitely think it would be Python, though.


Terrain bonus: A plain movement bonus could be nice. I don't know if plains would benefit them for attack or defense though. But for gameplay reasons, why not? Food for sure, I think. But it would give them, say, 2:food: 1:hammers: in plains and 2:food: in grassland. Hmm...

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas. However, I don't really like to think that gnolls descend from Goblins and Tigrans. They just existed as Goblins and Tigrans (which I'm not sure exists in FfH lore now. But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people :)). Should I came with who created them?

Edit: Oh, I made both leaders neutral. I think it fits as they are neither especially good nor especially evil. Yes they eat people after defeating them but that's not something that makes you evil. Well, it could but I don't think it is enough. They mostly want to survive, after all. They don't care (don't know?) about angels, gods and the like.

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH.
I agree agnosticism is a bad term for most of the agnostics civs there are. No one can be agnostic in Erebus - the gods are a hard fact, not a matter of believs. Cassiel is neutral towardss religions, but he is and angel
Mechanos are antytheists and believe in human mind only. But they know that gods, unfortunatelly, do exist.
Illians and scions are fanatics united for the cause. Except the Hand religion there is nothing that makes illians different than doviello or any other human civ.
So, I think all religions have their own religion, but agnosticism should be enforced only for those few that can't really adopt another and keep their flavour.

However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?
Not really. You can adjust for the specific improvement type, but not for specific bonus.
I wonder how would a lion react to hiena trying to ride it ;) Hmm, need to check what mounts do gnolls use - if at all. Boars?
Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...

Regarding Spore, I was excited with it at first, but it was just too offensive for my biologist's mind. High expectations, crappy ending. And it is boring after a short time. Plusm my girlfriend was anoyed wioth me making firnds with other crewatures... The songs are hard for her ears ;)
Anyway, I think you should be able to fish in tribe stage... But I played herbivores only...

I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.
I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but :commerce: from trade routes? Do not think so.

I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong :)
Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.

I agree agnosticism is a bad term for most of the agnostics civs there are. No one can be agnostic in Erebus - the gods are a hard fact, not a matter of believs. Cassiel is neutral towardss religions, but he is and angel
Mechanos are antytheists and believe in human mind only. But they know that gods, unfortunatelly, do exist.
Illians and scions are fanatics united for the cause. Except the Hand religion there is nothing that makes illians different than doviello or any other human civ.
So, I think all religions have their own religion, but agnosticism should be enforced only for those few that can't really adopt another and keep their flavour.


Not really. You can adjust for the specific improvement type, but not for specific bonus.

Ah, you are correct. I forgot that pastures are used by all the other animals as well. :lol:


I wonder how would a lion react to hiena trying to ride it ;) Hmm, need to check what mounts do gnolls use - if at all. Boars?
Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...

The Nyxkin animation would seem ready made, as it's already a big cat. Of course, I have no experience editing things like that, so I wouldn't know.:)


Regarding Spore, I was excited with it at first, but it was just too offensive for my biologist's mind. High expectations, crappy ending. And it is boring after a short time. Plusm my girlfriend was anoyed wioth me making firnds with other crewatures... The songs are hard for her ears ;)
Anyway, I think you should be able to fish in tribe stage... But I played herbivores only...


I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but :commerce: from trade routes? Do not think so.


Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.

I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but :commerce: from trade routes? Do not think so.

Forgot to reply to this one. ;)

At the moment, gaining food and hammers through trade are only possible via Civic. Or rather, they are in FF, and as it's only used for the Mazatl, I'd assume you imported it the schema for it. ;) I had tried in the past to find a way for buildings to grant it, couldn't do it without editing the dll which is something I'm not up to. The tags are <TradeYieldModifiers>
<iYield>50</iYield> :food:
<iYield>50</iYield> :hammers:
<iYield>-50</iYield> :commerce:
</TradeYieldModifiers>

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas.... ...But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people :)). Should I came with who created them?

I'm not too sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is yes. ;) Have you considered reintroducing Panthers? They existed during the Age of Ice and if the Ngomele are domesticating Lions as mounts, panthers seem like a natural step.

panthers are awesome...

Regardless of whether a race is completely carnivorous, with the advent of slavery, I would think it would open up the ability to buy slaves that could be made to cultivate farms to then uses as fodder for animals.

So perhaps the Ngomele cannot build farms unless they have the slavery civic or else the are part of the Undercouncil and the slavery action is passed. I would think a "Ngomele Fodder Farm" would need to be created to reflect the need to have it only be able to be built under those circumstances.

Plus, in sci-fi/fantasy, often times pure carnivore races often subjugate other races to do things like this. I mean in a way the entire Calabim race is like this. :eek:

So if we don't want to totally fiddle around with farms, it would be easy to just say that these are tilled either by slaves or 'subject' races that are in a serf relation to the Ngomele and aren't ever allowed any sort of combat potential and thus are never seen in game.

On the other hand, if the farms are tilled by slaves or subject races, perhaps some mechanic could be created that might have the occasional slave revolt which would create a rebel on the farm square (destroying it). For every revolting slave unit still alive at the end of a turn might even increase the random chance for more revolts.

I don't think horses would EVER be calm enough to handle carrying a Gnoll into battle... The stress of a predator on it's back, coupled with that from the fighting, would just be too much for the poor thing.Well, we humans mount horses even though we are a predator to them. Or maybe Ngomele would create races of an animal; one to eat, the other to ride. Gnolls on cows anyone? It would be so funny and awesome at once! :lol:

Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...As Valkrionn said, there is the Nyxkin animation. It has always been the graphics that turned modding off me. It's great to create these things and all but when it comes to graphics, I'm so lost. I feel like a Mazatl in the middle of a desert.

Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.Okay! I'll check that :)

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.So this is settled, great!

Regarding the internal trade routes: so it would need a whole new civic? Well, I can see that happening. However, forcing use of a civic to get the whole flavor of a civ may not be the good way. Too bad buildings can't do that!

Regarding Spore: I like it. It's fun to create things and to make the creature evolve through all phases, even though I'm not a big fan of the RTS ones and not a fan at all of the Civilization one. I would have so liked it to be more like Civ :P What I really like is to explore space and terraform planets. One problem was all the neverending pirates attacks and ecodisasters. So bored. So I got a mod, BetterSpore, and it's better now.

I'm not too sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is yes.I was asking if I should think about which angel/god created the gnolls. IIRC, sapient races were all created, so... I guess gnolls too. However, I could totally get along without knowing it (and so could do the Ngomele).

Panthers: why not? I like everything which looks like a cat, so... I wonder how I'll decide which to take, lions or panthers? Another think about mounts is that gnolls are supposed to be pretty heavy... So I wonder if a lion or a panther would be able to support their weight...

Plus, in sci-fi/fantasy, often times pure carnivore races often subjugate other races to do things like this.Well, this is because pure carnivorous races are mostly portrayed as evil in some way. As if eating fruits made humans harmless :p The thing I know for sure is that for a carnivorous species, either hunting or herding is necessary. Carnivorous animals need a lot of food, so this is why I think they would mostly be concerned with pastures.

Religion: I think I'll have to accept the oddities then of having, say, Bambur created in Ngomele territory. After all, this is already like that for many civs. I may tie them a little to FoL... But in fact, they could also follow Kilmorph, since this religion has a lot to do with nature too.

Hum, I don't feel we're moving forward. I should be more decisive, I think. If not, this could take a while... unless you don't mind if it does. I feel a bit overwhelmed. This is a much harder job than simply adding a leaderhead! :p

As Valkrionn said, there is the Nyxkin animation. It has always been the graphics that turned modding off me. It's great to create these things and all but when it comes to graphics, I'm so lost. I feel like a Mazatl in the middle of a desert.

For me it is more like being in arawn's hell, because there is smply none greater for a learned man, OTOH (On The Other Hand) Mike Huckabee would love one, (sorry I got off topic

I was asking if I should think about which angel/god created the gnolls. IIRC, sapient races were all created, so... I guess gnolls too. However, I could totally get along without knowing it (and so could do the Ngomele).

I may be misinterpretting your intentions, but the Ngomele seem to be aiming for "nature, red in tooth and claw". As such Sucellus, the God of Nature seems like a prime candidate for their creator.

Maybe the death of Sucellus in the Age of Ice was the trigger point for them to turn completely feral. If you want to use the Tigrans as their ancestors, Sucellus' death could also be the point at which they switched from cat-people (more civilized) to dog-people (scavengers).

Actually, I'd see them being like Centaurs, Lamias, Lizardmen, etc, in originating through the twisted experiments of Patrian Archmages.

Putting aside their origins for the moment, I had an idea concerning religion.

I was thinking of letting them use any state religion but not giving them the related heroes (or not all of them). Instead, they would get a free promotion, reserved to the gnoll race, which would be like a new conception of the Green Sea according to a certain religion. For example, if they were Empyrean followers, they would have the, say, "Righteous Sea" promotion, giving them some bonus.

They would have a unique unit for religion spreading (like the Jotnar civ of FF) which would only spread its own religion (I don't know if it's possible to force a unit to have a random religion of the city it's built in). So, even their heroes would be gnolls. They wouldn't have one hero for each main religion, though.

Comments?

I like it... Would differentiate the religions, while still keeping their flavour.

I only have one question....

What's the ETA? XD

I only have one question....

What's the ETA? XDI don't know :p

Right now, I have some XML already done, even if not totally (namely, it's the civilizationinfos, leaderinfos, parts of promotions). So, I miss buildings, units, spells. I miss the graphics too.

I thought about the buildings improving the tiles (those being impossible to improve as other civs do)... wouldn't that feature make a whole lot of building to build? I mean, their production would be busy trying to make the land usable so they wouldn't be able to produce units. Other civs would just have to produce a worker and they wouldn't have to worry. Seems to be a great disadvantage, doesn't it? But in the other hand, it would improve all the big fat cross tiles at once and be untouchable by pillage. Oh well, maybe it's worth it :)

That would probably depend on the cost of the buildings. I'd recommend creating a few low level versions of the each improvement, and then have multiple buildings (rituals?) for each improvement type, slowly increasing the yields. Could have a series of farm buildings, 1:food: -> 2:food: -> 3:food:, for example.

Personally, I'd say just do it via ritual, actually, and rather than add an improvement have it increase the base tile yield of a random workable tile. Make the ritual cheap, and make it able to stack, so if you do NOTHING but complete the ritual you could have very high yield tiles.. But you'd probably lose them in your first war. :lol: Maybe have it cap tile yields at a certain point, and choose a different tile if comes up on a capped tile? Say, 5:food::commerce::hammers:. Would take 221 rituals to max out a 2 tier city, assuming all plains, no hills, and no rivers. Then allow a UU worker that does nothing but build roads and connect resources via unique improvements that do not increase tile yields?

To be honest, I don't know how to increase base tile yields via ritual, but I DO know that the Muris clan goblins event does it, or rather the inverse of it, so it should be possible.

What is the difference between a building and a ritual, actually? It has always bothered me. By the way, I've looked quickly in the files but I can't seem to find rituals...

But I could use both. I like the idea of having "upgrade" buildings. And I like the idea of a ritual upgrading some tiles in the city. Maybe both could be used. The buildings would be the base and then, later, would come the ritual.

Honestly, I have no idea of the coding difference between the two, as I've had no reason to mod a ritual yet. I do have the idea in my head that rituals are able to do things buildings are not, but that's probably not true... Only thing I'm *sure* of is that rituals cannot be rushed which is either a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view... In this case, I'd say a good thing. So if a mixture is used, the rituals should be the expensive ones, that grant high yields. Keeps you from completing them in one turn.

Edit: Rituals are in Gameinfo/Civ4ProjectInfo.xml.

Edit 2: The Python for rituals is all in def onProjectBuilt, in CvEventManager.py. Looks to be easier to use than buildings.

And I browsed the Gameinfo folder... Whatever, thanks for pointing this out :)

I will do what I said. First buildings, improving all tiles of a city at once. Then, rituals. Maybe those could improve tiles beyond the city the project is built in. I'm sure I could link this to the number of owned Nature nodes.

On another subject: how do you (everyone who might read, not just Valkrionn) pronounce Ngomele? I'm not a native speaker of English, so I pronounce it "ngo mé lé", with an "ng" which is not an "n" followed by a "g" but an actual "ng" (for technical terms, a velar nasal). "o" as in French "tôt" and "é" as in French "blé". In IPA, it simply is /ŋomele/.

I'm a linguistic geek... Forgive me for this geeky question :p

And I browsed the Gameinfo folder... Whatever, thanks for pointing this out :)

I will do what I said. First buildings, improving all tiles of a city at once. Then, rituals. Maybe those could improve tiles beyond the city the project is built in. I'm sure I could link this to the number of owned Nature nodes.

On another subject: how do you (everyone who might read, not just Valkrionn) pronounce Ngomele? I'm not a native speaker of English, so I pronounce it "ngo mé lé", with an "ng" which is not an "n" followed by a "g" but an actual "ng" (for technical terms, a velar nasal). "o" as in French "tôt" and "é" as in French "blé". In IPA, it simply is /ŋomele/.

I'm a linguistic geek... Forgive me for this geeky question :p

Glad to help. :lol:

Over all, I like the idea. My only issue would be if the buildings granted actual improvements rather than base tile yields... If all tiles are covered with one improvement, how do you support :food: :commerce: and :hammers:?

I've been pronouncing it 'N go meh lee'. Phonics ftw. :lol:

No no, when I say "improve", I mean in terms of yields. Each building will modify the terrain yields without adding improvements all over them. It will function as the Levee, for example :)

In that case, very nice idea. :lol: A cap for the amount of yields would be necessary though... Maybe a sliding scale? As in, up to 10 yield total... But whether you want all 10 :hammers:, or 3:food: 3:hammers: 4:commerce: is up to you. Allows for a finite cap, while letting you specialize your cities... No idea how you'd code it though. :p

I'll see how to make a cap. I don't know if anything has this kind of feature (just for understanding it, I'll steal later :p). However, I could also make the building so that it isn't too much. The ritual could have a duration.

I'll add production bonus too for some units. Like cow, pig or sheep for warrior units. I really like this kind of bonus and it's a shame it's not that used.

I've been reading it as Ngo mehl, or !omehl (! is a click)

Really? With a click? That's unexpected. And nice :)

Really? With a click? That's unexpected. And nice :)

The name sounds African to me, so I imagine it with a click.

Just to let you know, I think I'm going to have to steal your 'killing units grants food' idea for my new Doviello mod. It's just too perfect to pass up, hope you don't mind. :lol:

@Valkrionn: I didn't see your post before answering in the Doviello+ thread. It's perfectly fine. You may end up finishing this mod before I even start mine! You crazy modder :lol:

@Darksaber1: Nice that you remarked it, since it is intended :)

It looks like those Zulu names in cIV, totally weird spellings

*I* have just been doing my best to not pronounce it as "gnome l" :p

I've been reading it as Ngo mehl, or !omehl (! is a click)

That's how I pronounce it (in)

I just realized I'll need to find a diplo music. After spending much of my time searching art, I'll spend it searching music :p

Wow... that's funny

how long until we get a bare bones version?

I don't know. I'll work this evening, when RL will get her hands off me.
I mostly have to work the buildings and the units. There'll be some python too, so this could take time.

The name sounds African to me, so I imagine it with a click.

I have been pronouncing it like Nuh-go-mele

screw the music, that can come later... get buildings and python in and then I'll playtest

Okay, this sucks.
I just discovered that I can't modify tile yields the same way Levee modify riverside tile yields. I can't add +1:food: to all surrounding plains tiles, for example. I don't know why, I thought I could. How hard to implement would this be? (Ahwaric, I'm asking you! :p)

If I can't, I think I'll go for rituals. They could allow me to do this stuff.

crap, that is a issue, make the rituals cost 1:hammer: and unlock them at their special tech

Assuming the issue was with buildings improving the tiles rather than workers, 1 :hammers: is far too low. :p

Rituals give more control anyway, as they're done via python... We know that food can be removed from a tile because of the damn Muris goblins, so I'd start with looking at that code.

Yes, 1:hammers: is out of question.

However, the thing was that with buildings, I could have a clear description of what it does (adds +1:food: to all grassland tiles in BFC for example) and the bonus would be lost with the building. You can't lose the ritual, so you can't lose the bonus.

I searched deeply in the source code and all to find how riverplots are handled, to see if I could come up with an XML tag for PlainPlot and GrasslandPlot, etc., but it is hard to understand...

Hmm... Well, if you wanted to go the cheap, easy way, make several clones of each terrain type, increasing the terrains food, hammers, or commerce... Then, when the ritual is cast, it has a chance to make each plains tile into a Plains1 tile, and so on... then, in the onCityLost function in CvEventManager, write a function that, when the Ngomele lose a city, reverts any enhanced tiles to the vanilla yields.

Only issue is you'd have to have a large amount of terrain clones, since you'd need one for each :food::commerce::hammers: combination. Not sure if it's possible to make terrain not show in the pedia either...

I think it's possible to hide it from the Pedia with <GraphicalOnly>, as the tag exists in the terrain file. It would be kinda clunky but it could work. It would have to check for any preexisting "terrain modifs" before applying the one from the ritual.

Didn't know that tag existed in the terraininfos... Haven't had any reason to add any. :lol:

Personally, I'd set up a few tiers of the rituals, increasing in cost/tech requirements, and then have each ritual apply the terrain change to a random set of allowed tiles in the BFC... Having it check for a tile type would rule out wasting it on any already upgraded tiles.

And yes, it would be very clunky... But I can't think of any other way to revert the terrain ..... d'oh.

Increase terrain yields the same way the Muris event works. Then, in oncitylost, check to see if the city belongs to Ngomele. If so, check each tile's yields against the base yields for that tile type... I know you can do it with unitstrength. If the tile has yields more than it should, decrease it by (tile's current yields - tile's correct yields).

Might be more processor intensive, but unless you're losing 5 or 6 cities at a time, it shouldn't be an issue. And it's MUCH cleaner.

You mean repeatable rituals? I thought it could check usable tiles (Grasslands for example) and increases them all by 1:food: then the ritual wouldn't be usable anymore... This would be problematic if some tiles become grassland afterwards, though... Huh. Or it could check, every five turns or so, if the ritual has been completed in the city and if there are grasslands not upgraded, it would upgrade them. But now, another issue: is it possible to tie rituals to cities? (I may pop a building upon completion and it would hinder the possibility to proceed the ritual; the check would be for the building...).

Very clunky all of this :lol: I asked the Fall Further team about the new XML tag. I'll see what answer I'll get :)

I thought about two things involving deserts:

1) A ritual, "Rain Dance" (available at Knowledge of the Ether, requiring Deadgnolls Copse): change all surrounding (BFC) desert tiles into plains tiles. The drawback is that it is not permanent. It has to be either repeated (but it cannot be so until five turns after expiration... so it's not a good way, as it will have 5 turns of desert + x turns more for processing of the ritual) or extended by something I didn't thought of yet; maybe the sacrifice of a unit, or a drain of gold or both (flavourwise, the drain of gold would be for preparing the ceremony (gameplay: adding a promotion to a unit) and the unit would be sacrificied... using its fervor and blood to extend the duration of the ritual.

2) An event, "Drought": inside the Deadgnolls Copse of [city], someone felt a drought was coming. It's possible to don't believe it (the Drought happens), to try to sooth the Sea (-:gold:, a unit or two killed -> 50% chance Drought happens) or to make a great festival of fervor, busying the city for 5 turns and reducing its pop by 1 or 2 (Drought won't happen). What is the Drought? All tiles in BFC+1 convert to Desert tiles. Maybe the event will only applies if "Rain Dance" has been used somewhere in the empire. The event may be a bit extreme :p

"Rain Dance" would be very useful if the entire Arcane line is removed to favor a "druid" line only, with very limited uses in terms of mana, ie: no Water I.

I had misunderstood your post, I was thinking that you make a building and it unlocks the ritual to solve the Levee issue

Huh, I don't get it: I'm trying to add a building graphic (the Mage College imported by Walter Hawkwood from Kohan 2) but I can't get it to work. Here is the ArtDefine: <BuildingArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_BUILDING_MBUMGWU</Type>
<LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x3</LSystem>
<bAnimated>0</bAnimated>
<fScale>1.0</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.60</fInterfaceScale>
<NIF>Art/Structures/Buildings/Ngomele/gaurimagecollege.nif</NIF>
<KFM/>
<Button>, ,Art/Erebus_Atlas.dds,2,11</Button>
</BuildingArtInfo>I have the four files that came with the download in the same folder. The ArtDef is correctly linked to the BuildingType Mbumgwu... Is this related to the LSystem?
(the button is a placeholder)

I had the same issue... The building is actually there. Change <fScale>1.0</fScale> to around 14 or 16. :lol: For some reason the graphics are vanishingly small.

I'll try. The thing is that the entire pedia article is wrong: there's only the button and the rest is blank.

Tried. It doesn't work. However, I added another building and tried another graphics and it worked! Maybe the file doesn't like my building? :p

Hmm... All the buildings I've ever added have been <LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x2</LSystem> rather than <LSystem>LSYSTEM_2x3</LSystem>

I tried that too... It seems that all the dwarven buildings don't work with me. Huh, I'll have to check that. Apart from that, here is a list of what I've used as building graphics:

- Mbumgwu: Gauri (Dwarven) Mage College
- Council Tree: Wildwood
- Shurmbumgwu: Watchtower
- Deadgnolls Copse: Haroun (Elven) Quarry
- Well of the Green (Pagan Temple replacement): Temple of Stone

All from the Kohan 2 Fantasy buildings brought by Walter Hawkwood :)

I don't have the time to put a comprehensive list of what I've done but here is some outline:

- Buildings added: Deadgnolls Copse (Mage Guild replacement), Well of the Green (Pagan Temple replacement), Street Play (created by the Perform Street Play spell of the Mbumgwukha (Entertainer) unit), Mbumgwu (Colosseum replacement), Ngomele Palace (Bannor Palace replacement), Shurmbumgwu (Unique building), Council Tree (Unique building).
- Units added: Mbumgwukha (Entertainer, unique unit), Banung the Blind (Hero), Nga Eye-Eater (Hero).
- Promotions added: Mbumgwushur, Gnoll, Child of the Councillors.
- Spell added: Perform Street Play.
- Leaders: Mvadang, Vungu.

That's all for now. I've a lot to detail, though. I plan on adding a Play that would require the Mbumgwu building in the city and will only be available for the upgrade of the Mbumgwukha. I've also all the Shur and Mounted lines to work. And a bunch of other things :p

I think my idea of food carrying is more clear now. Let's have a text:

Each time a unit wins a fight, it has a chance of dropping a "Meat Chariot". This item can be taken by any unit and dropped after, like any item. When carried, it adds the "Food carried I" promotion. When the unit wins a fight while having this promotion, it has a chance of gaining "Food carried II"; this can upgrade till "Food carried V".

The "Food carried" promotion won't last forever. The unit has an imparted time for going back to an owned city where it can perform one of three actions (described after). The "Food carried" promotion don't just go away, it decreases. Not bringing back the "Food carried II" will transform it to "Food carried I". The thing is that the imparted time is lower the higher the promotion is (10, 8, 6, 4, 2) but much lower if in decreasing trend. Say, a unit has "Food carried V", so it has 2 turns for bringing it back. It doesn't do it. So it has now "Food carried IV" but instead of having 4 turns it has only 3. For "Food carried III", instead of 6, it has 4. For II, instead of 8, it has 5 and for I, instead of 10 it has 6. I tried to mirror the fact that if a bit of food is spoiled, the rest will be more likely to be spoiled too, so the decrease happens faster.

There is a unit whose purpose is dedicated to carrying meat. It's a very mobile unit (mounted one) that cannot attack or defend itself. When meat is carried this way, it has a longer imparted time.

Also, there is a building that gives the free "Conservation arts" to any unit created in the city it's built in. This promotion extends the duration of the food promotions. So, a "Meat Carrier" with "Conservation arts" is the ideal for bringing back food home.

So, there is three actions doable in the city:

1) Stocking the food (Food I and higher)
Adds in the granary an amount of food relative to the promotion.

2) Making a feast (Food II and higher)
Adds culture in the city relative to the promotion. Higher promotions give "King day" things.

3) Sharing with the people (Food II and higher)
Adds production and temporary happiness relative to the promotion. Higher and repeated sharings may give permanent happiness.

complex, but nice.

I believe the Ngomele will be very unique to play with, but i like that. :)

any idea on when we can expect a first (trial) version?

any idea on when we can expect a first (trial) version?I don't know. Most XML will be done rather quickly but I may have a hard time with python, so it could take some weeks. It will also depend on real life issues. I can't promise any release date right now :)

Edit: Do I tie up the Soul-forge-but-for-food-building to a building automatically built on city founding? Or to a building that would have to be built? I think the first would be better, considering how many things they would have to build already...

Complete list of things I've added and of what they do:

Buildings
Deadgnolls Copse
requires Knowledge of the Ether
replaces Mage Guild
double production speed with Arcane trait
+2:culture:
1 artist slot
+1:health: for Nature mana
+1:) for Nature mana
+2 XP for Arcane units built in the city
120:hammers:

Well of the Green
requires Mysticism
replaces Pagan Temple
double production speed with Spiritual trait
+2:health:
+15%:culture:
1 priest slot
+1:) for Incense
100:hammers:

Street Play
+1:gp:/turn (Artist)
+2:culture
+1:)
Cannot be built

Mbumgwu
requires Festivals and Construction
replaces Colosseum
double production speed for Creative trait
+1:)
+30%:culture:
+1:) per 20%:culture:
1 artist slot
1 engineer slot
+2 XP for Melee units built in the city
180:hammers:

Shurmbumgwu
requires Strength of Will and Construction
National Wonder: limit of 2
+15% maintenance
+3:)
+6:culture:
+3 XP for Arcane units built in the city
free Mbumgwushur promotion for Arcane units built in the city
350:hammers:

Ngomele Palace
replaces Bannor Palace
provides 1 Nature mana
provides 1 Earth mana
provides 1 Sun mana
free Palace Guard promotion to unit in the city
makes this city the capital
reduces maintenance in nearby cities
10%:food: stocked
+1:)
+40%:traderoute:, -20% external :traderoute: (+20% internal?)
+1:hammers: in river plots
+1:hammers:, +8:commerce:, +3:espionage:, +2:culture:
-10 crime
requires at least 4 cities
160:hammers:

(continued in the next post because of too many images)

Council Tree
unknown prereq tech
National Wonder: limit of 1
double production speed for Philosophical trait
provides 1 Nature mana
-30% maintenance
+10%:gp: rate in all the empire
+2 XP in the city
+2:)
+1:traderoute: in the city
+3:culture:, +1:espionage:
-15 crime
free Child of the Councillors promotion for units built in the city
requires at least 3 cities
170:hammers:

Units

Mbumgwukha
0/2:strength: 2:move:
can only defend
cannot reveal the map
requires Festivals
requires Mbumgwu
50:hammers:
can use the Perform Street Play ability
[well, in fact, I think I'll cut Street Play and just make Play (Street requiring Mbumgwu)]

Nga Eye-Eater
requires Iron Working
8/6:strength: 1:move:
+1 Nature affinity
1-2 First strikes
immune to First strikes
+1:gold: maintenance
+25% City attack
starts with Gnoll, Hero
200:hammers:

Banung the Blind
requires Sorcery
requires Deadgnolls Copse
2/4:strength: 1:move:
+1 Nature affinity
can build Nature node (300%)
starts with Gnoll, Hero, Channeling II, Nature II
120:hammers:

Promotions

Mbumgwushur
available for Arcane units
+1:strength:
+10 Spells damage
cannot be learned by XP

Child of the Councillors
available to any unit
immune to capture
immune to Enraged promotion
cannot be learned by XP

Race: Gnoll
double movement in Plains
+15% heal after combat
cannot gain Cannibalize, Iron Weapons, Mithril Weapons

There. XML isn't finished yet. I've still many things to add and balance :)

I did not have time to read much here recently, and I need to check the details.
Some thoughts for now.
Hmm... Well, if you wanted to go the cheap, easy way, make several clones of each terrain type, increasing the terrains food, hammers, or commerce...
Please do not. And I really really please.
Try to keep additions to minimum. No civ-specific terrains. Features - only when really needed, but please do not. Bonuses - same.
It makes map crowded with things not every civ can use and that casues many problems. Or just makes other things more complicated.
For example: you add new terrain to get extra :hammers:. So, every improvement has to be defined again on which terrain it can appear. Same applies to spells. That is a lot of work. No way I am going to rewrite all this for one civ. You, of course, can, but it will make Ngomele much lass likely to be included in the main mod.
Also, all such additions make it hard for new players to learn the new features. And both FfH and Orbis have already steep learning curves.
If you REALLY need something on the map, make it improvement. But better keep it as building in city, it is really the best way - including easy changes when the city is conquered by another race or razed and a new city is build there.

In short words: keep it simple. "A designer knows he achieved perfection..." - we all know this sentence.
Huh, I don't get it: I'm trying to add a building graphic (the Mage College imported by Walter Hawkwood from Kohan 2) but I can't get it to work. Here is the ArtDefine:
First of all, most of the buildings from Kohan are already used (including this one). This is less of an issue than duplicating unit art, but still would be better if you use another art.
In the resources pack I think the wood resource could be nice for the council tree - it has no doors, but looks like a Baobab, so would fit the flavour.
The art form Kohan needs a big scale 15-20, they are small. Also, the gauri buildings that come with FfH patch are somewhat broken, if they will not be fixed in the next patch I will attach my own versions directly from Walter's thread.
I think my idea of food carrying is more clear now. Let's have a text:

Each time a unit wins a fight, it has a chance of dropping a "Meat Chariot". This item can be taken by any unit and dropped after, like any item. When carried, it adds the "Food carried I" promotion. When the unit wins a fight while having this promotion, it has a chance of gaining "Food carried II"; this can upgrade till "Food carried V".
This is again, too complicated IMHO. First, decide if you want create meat chariot or gain promotion. There is no need for both I think. Also, the food spoiling is realistic but first, harder to code, second, too realistic ;) It is easier to remeber if the time is constant.
Also, the tag that allows specific number of turns befor promotion will expire is not in Orbis. It can be imported from FF, but it is SDK and I did not really need it so far.

I think the least micro management would come from soul forge mechanics. Maybe tie it to unique smokehouse or hunter's lodge? Maybe it does not need to be unique, python allows many things.
It would not allow specific spells though, so maybe one food promotion for the spells and soul forge mechanics together?

One more - try to make your buildings replace already existing ones. It makes civ more unique - i.e. governor's manor instead of courthouse is more flavourfull and requires less code than having both in one city. Also, there are less buildings that need to be build and they are easier to learn.
You can link them to any tech, the limiting factor is really light. You already did it for most of the buildings, but I think that i.e. council tree can replace forbidden palace

Please do not. And I really really please.
Try to keep additions to minimum. No civ-specific terrains. Features - only when really needed, but please do not. Bonuses - same.
It makes map crowded with things not every civ can use and that casues many problems. Or just makes other things more complicated.
For example: you add new terrain to get extra :hammers:. So, every improvement has to be defined again on which terrain it can appear. Same applies to spells. That is a lot of work. No way I am going to rewrite all this for one civ. You, of course, can, but it will make Ngomele much lass likely to be included in the main mod.
Also, all such additions make it hard for new players to learn the new features. And both FfH and Orbis have already steep learning curves.
If you REALLY need something on the map, make it improvement. But better keep it as building in city, it is really the best way - including easy changes when the city is conquered by another race or razed and a new city is build there.

In short words: keep it simple. "A designer knows he achieved perfection..." - we all know this sentence.I've heard you. I think it'd be best not to add too many things. If I could modify yields with buildings in the XML, I'd do it. If I must use Python instead, well, I'll do it nonetheless. It may be hard to track though... Or maybe I can check if the building was in the city when it's taken or razed and decrease yields consequently. Would be particularly troublesome but could work. However, I think it will not be included in the building summary... So strategy text won't be optional :p

First of all, most of the buildings from Kohan are already used (including this one). This is less of an issue than duplicating unit art, but still would be better if you use another art.
In the resources pack I think the wood resource could be nice for the council tree - it has no doors, but looks like a Baobab, so would fit the flavour.
The art form Kohan needs a big scale 15-20, they are small. Also, the gauri buildings that come with FfH patch are somewhat broken, if they will not be fixed in the next patch I will attach my own versions directly from Walter's thread.I took them directly from Walter Hawkwood thread. Don't get why they don't work.
I'd be glad to use any other graphics; I just don't have anything else that fits. The wood resource is good, though.

This is again, too complicated IMHO. First, decide if you want create meat chariot or gain promotion. There is no need for both I think. Also, the food spoiling is realistic but first, harder to code, second, too realistic ;) It is easier to remeber if the time is constant.
Also, the tag that allows specific number of turns befor promotion will expire is not in Orbis. It can be imported from FF, but it is SDK and I did not really need it so far.

I think the least micro management would come from soul forge mechanics. Maybe tie it to unique smokehouse or hunter's lodge? Maybe it does not need to be unique, python allows many things.
It would not allow specific spells though, so maybe one food promotion for the spells and soul forge mechanics together?So, you mean adding a soul-forge building and a promotion gained after combat? If so, it is what I wanted to do in the first place :) I think a item would be useful though, being disposable and usable by another unit. I really like adding a unit specialized in food transport :p

One more - try to make your buildings replace already existing ones. It makes civ more unique - i.e. governor's manor instead of courthouse is more flavourfull and requires less code than having both in one city. Also, there are less buildings that need to be build and they are easier to learn.
You can link them to any tech, the limiting factor is really light. You already did it for most of the buildings, but I think that i.e. council tree can replace forbidden palaceThis reminds me one question: what are the civbuilding tags for? Just there for unique buildings that don't replace any other one? Because I used them for Shurmbumgwu and Council Tree but I was able to build them with the Grigori... and they aren't even mentioned as unique building, I noticed.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts, Ahwaric. They make me settle my mind :goodjob:

I'm afraid while I've been skimming this thread, I've may have missed this if it's been put out.

The Ngomele, do they have a 'historical' enemy and friends? If using flavored start, about where/what type of area would they end up?

Obviously it would be in the primer for this race, but what unit would they really be known for? I mean the Hippus are known for their cavalry and the Calibim for their vampire lords, so which unit really epitomizes this race?

I must agree with others who say this looks interesting.

The Ngomele, do they have a 'historical' enemy and friends?I don't know. Currently, I've thought of them in some isolation. Using this map (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7998515&postcount=25), I'll say they are located south of Shazak. It's the only isthmus that convince me. It would be mostly plains with, northward, jungle. They would certainly be displeased by it and would stick to their plains. So, according to their location, they would know Lanun, Clan, Bannor and maybe Elohim. Clan proximity is a surprisingly good thing as gnolls may seem related to savages. I don't know how they would like each others though. Maybe not well since gnolls would have chosen to remain with themselves rather than ally with other savages. I'm pleased to think that Lanun and Ngomele would like each other, trading mostly alcohol (one thing the Ngomele are very good at making). The Bannor won't have an opinion. They would not regard them as dangerous nor very important. The Elohim would certainly be kind to them.

Obviously it would be in the primer for this race, but what unit would they really be known for? I mean the Hippus are known for their cavalry and the Calibim for their vampire lords, so which unit really epitomizes this race?Good question. I'll answer that, just let me think :p

I must agree with others who say this looks interesting.I'm glad you think so :)

Can't wait to try a beta version. :goodjob:

Can't wait to try a beta version. :goodjob::)

I may need a bit of input! I'm trying to figure out what will be the religious promotions that Ngomele units will get when built and having a religion. As I said before, this promotion are there to symbolize the merging of the Green Sea faith and one of the Orbis religions (including CotD). As for now, I think RoK will get two promotions. The effects of the first one are unknown but I know this one would be automatically gained upon production; the second one would only be available to high level units having the first promotion already: it would just add +1 Earth affinity. As for the others, I have little idea, if it isn't for the one concerning terrain (Forest for FoL, hills for RoK, seas for OO, etc.). So, I would like to hear anyone's ideas :)

Maybe unique religious buildings replacing the original ones... Mostly for increasing some tiles with it. For example, the temple of Kilmorph would add +1:hammers: or +1:food: to hills; the temple of OO would add bonus to coast tiles. But temples of FoL, Order, Empy, CoE and AV would most likely don't mess with yields. I admit that FoL could (Forests namely) but I don't want to tie yields changes to such easily erased things as forests. The other religions aren't really tied to nature for adding anything of this kind.

Thus & BTW, I think Ngomele leaders would be more inclined towards OO, RoK and FoL (weights-wise). Those religions would certainly mean more to them than any of the others. So maybe this three will get a kind of special treatment; RoK would modify hills yields and enables a powerful high level promotion (since the Ngomele begins with 1 Earth mana and that they can have 1 more with the Tablets of Bambur); FoL and OO would gain different benefits, trying to be diverse. However, Order, Empy, CoE, AV and CotD would have one promotion for units following them (those are mildly interesting) and that's all.

It may seem kind of restricting for the player but I think it is a nice compromise between gameplay and lore.

I want Beta!!!!

I've heard you. I think it'd be best not to add too many things. If I could modify yields with buildings in the XML, I'd do it. If I must use Python instead, well, I'll do it nonetheless. It may be hard to track though...
Good :) ;)
I will try to think of a way to do it, but I got sick and everythig takes much more time to do :cry:
I took them directly from Walter Hawkwood thread. Don't get why they don't work.
Strange. But I think the mage college is already used, not sure but I think for Tablets of Bambur. You may try it.
So, you mean adding a soul-forge building and a promotion gained after combat? If so, it is what I wanted to do in the first place :) I think a item would be useful though, being disposable and usable by another unit. I really like adding a unit specialized in food transport :p
Glad to hear it. 5 promotions is a mess too. But if I can do something via promotion, I do it as it is the least messy way ;)
Regarding an item, you do not need it for it. Just use PromotionInStackPrereq tag in spell info - it will allow you to pick the food from another unit, but it will not allow it to exist on itself in the wild. I do not think food laying around would survive a single night in Erebus ;)
This reminds me one question: what are the civbuilding tags for? Just there for unique buildings that don't replace any other one? Because I used them for Shurmbumgwu and Council Tree but I was able to build them with the Grigori... and they aren't even mentioned as unique building, I noticed.
That is the exact function - to allow adding buildings that are not simple replacement of other, without adding a new buildingclass everytime. They do not show as unique, because there is no default building they replace. Xienwolf changed the way the display work, but that involves some big changes and I am not sure I am ready for this.
CivBuiling classes are nice and usefull, but you need to remeber that you can't restrict them to i.e. just one for civ, as there are other buildings affected. The number allowed is the only thing affected by building class save for replacing.
Strage thing with the grigori, should not happen.
Clan proximity is a surprisingly good thing as gnolls may seem related to savages. I don't know how they would like each others though. Maybe not well since gnolls would have chosen to remain with themselves rather than ally with other savages. I'm pleased to think that Lanun and Ngomele would like each other, trading mostly alcohol (one thing the Ngomele are very good at making). The Bannor won't have an opinion. They would not regard them as dangerous nor very important. The Elohim would certainly be kind to them.
Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.
In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.
I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.
I am sure Bannor would not be neutral. "Savages, looking like disgusting hyenas? Eating people? Whan can I enlist to a crusade that will kill them all? They can't be converted, we need to kill them all." I think thet is how would Bannor react.
I may need a bit of input! I'm trying to figure out what will be the religious promotions that Ngomele units will get when built and having a religion. As I said before, this promotion are there to symbolize the merging of the Green Sea faith and one of the Orbis religions (including CotD). As for now, I think RoK will get two promotions. The effects of the first one are unknown but I know this one would be automatically gained upon production
With Xienwolf's code that I added to Orbis, you can do wonders with promotions.
You do not need a promotion that is gained on unit building unless you want specifically award units that were build when the religion was a state one. If not, just add a promotion with special requirements that is automatically gained when the reqs are met. SO you might need just one promo for RoK instead of two, and that is better :)
Check knightly orders - all is done using the above mechanics:
Squire is to mark unit as having joined order, so you do not need this one. Then, at lvl 6 you get right promotion depending on the state religion (with the exception of dragon knights). And if you change to the wrong religion, you get mutiny one, which will go away if you change religion back.
It may seem kind of restricting for the player but I think it is a nice compromise between gameplay and lore.
You should not make them selected religions heavy - try to make it more equal. FfH is all about what if and making your own path. I learned it the hard way when I disabled empyrean for calabim. Thet is one religion vampires would never follow, but people complained thet they want to make them repent. And I can understand that.
Once you release Ngomele into the wild, they will get the life on their own. :D

Talking of which, when you have something done, please share at least the modified editor. I am going to post an update soon(hard to tell precise date, I am almost two weeks late from the original one ;) ), so maybe for the next one .
When I do, you will have some work to do with updating. I know what it feels to update to FfH, FF, and flavour mod changes, so might save you some trouble. At least I will try to make general schema compatibile so you do not need to edit visual basic every time.

Good :) ;)
I will try to think of a way to do it, but I got sick and everythig takes much more time to do :cry:Poor you! Right now, I think I will update yields when the building is built; when the city is taken, I will check if the civ is Ngomele or not and if not I will check if the building is present (we'll be never capturable) and if yes, I will change yields accordingly.

Glad to hear it. 5 promotions is a mess too. But if I can do something via promotion, I do it as it is the least messy way ;)
Regarding an item, you do not need it for it. Just use PromotionInStackPrereq tag in spell info - it will allow you to pick the food from another unit, but it will not allow it to exist on itself in the wild. I do not think food laying around would survive a single night in Erebus ;)[quote]I did not know I could do that. That's brilliant :)

[quote]That is the exact function - to allow adding buildings that are not simple replacement of other, without adding a new buildingclass everytime. They do not show as unique, because there is no default building they replace. Xienwolf changed the way the display work, but that involves some big changes and I am not sure I am ready for this.
CivBuiling classes are nice and usefull, but you need to remeber that you can't restrict them to i.e. just one for civ, as there are other buildings affected. The number allowed is the only thing affected by building class save for replacing.
Strage thing with the grigori, should not happen.I will test to see if this happens again. I tried to enable the display of buildingclass_civ_building1 in the civilization screen in the pedia but I failed :p

Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.
In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.
I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.
I am sure Bannor would not be neutral. "Savages, looking like disgusting hyenas? Eating people? Whan can I enlist to a crusade that will kill them all? They can't be converted, we need to kill them all." I think thet is how would Bannor react.Ew. They have a nasty enemy so. Thinking of it, it may take a lot of neutrality or evilness to accept their rites of eating the defeated...

With Xienwolf's code that I added to Orbis, you can do wonders with promotions.
You do not need a promotion that is gained on unit building unless you want specifically award units that were build when the religion was a state one. If not, just add a promotion with special requirements that is automatically gained when the reqs are met. SO you might need just one promo for RoK instead of two, and that is better :)
Check knightly orders - all is done using the above mechanics:
Squire is to mark unit as having joined order, so you do not need this one. Then, at lvl 6 you get right promotion depending on the state religion (with the exception of dragon knights). And if you change to the wrong religion, you get mutiny one, which will go away if you change religion back.So, I can make any unit that have OO as religion (state religion is irrelevant here) automatically gain a promotion? I would like to do that for RoK too but plus there will be a high level promotion.

You should not make them selected religions heavy - try to make it more equal. FfH is all about what if and making your own path. I learned it the hard way when I disabled empyrean for calabim. Thet is one religion vampires would never follow, but people complained thet they want to make them repent. And I can understand that.Yes, I agree with that. The other thing is that nothing should be exactly the same; I'm trying to make it diverse in giving different possibility for the different religions. I'm not disabling religions, just pushing them a bit towards some that are more fitting lorewise. But the other will get bonus too.

Once you release Ngomele into the wild, they will get the life on their own. :DThis will be fun :p I'm not sure when they will be ready though. I'm just training in python nowadays in order to gain some experience, so... may have to wait a little.

Talking of which, when you have something done, please share at least the modified editor. I am going to post an update soon(hard to tell precise date, I am almost two weeks late from the original one ;) ), so maybe for the next one .
When I do, you will have some work to do with updating. I know what it feels to update to FfH, FF, and flavour mod changes, so might save you some trouble. At least I will try to make general schema compatibile so you do not need to edit visual basic every time.Okay then. I attached the current editor I use. However, it misses the art defines for the leaders and buildings; it also misses the building class infos and the unit class infos. But since I think you won't need them right now, it's fine, right?

BTW, why those aren't in the editor? It could be nice to have them, don't you think?

Off topic note: as I'm working on a few projects at the same time (I'm of the spreading kind, can't focus on a single thing) all concerning Orbis (thus not counting non-Civ related projects :p), I'm having a bit of trouble to separate them all in the editor. For example, as I've already mentioned it, I'm working on adding a bunch of minor leaders; however if I edit the editor for them, it won't be easy to separate them from the Ngomele... huh.

Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.

In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.

I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.

I would contend that the Doviello are not savages and neither are the CoE. The term savage is always used by 'civilized' cultures about those that don't understand. The Doviello don't like cities, they have a harsh (like the Spartans) ideal of if you are weak, your dead weight and the cultural practices reflect that. I see them as living Nietzsche's creed about what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Now the orcs of the CoE aren't savages either, barbarians perhaps but that is also just another culturally loaded term. As you said, the want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. This doesn't make them savages or barbarians, just fanatics. Personally, I see the 'orc savage' units as the barbarian orc. I've asked that someday as the FiRe code becomes available in FF, that we get barbarian dwarves and elves as well that would represent those pockets of people who survived the Age of Ice but didn't have a ideal or charismatic leader to keep them from falling into savagery.

However, it is so typical of cultures like the Kuriotates or the Amurites and the like to label them barbarians or savages just because instead of building lots of 'civilized' amenities, they build warrens and produce more troops. In many respects, the CoE is no different than the Bannor. In fact I've noticed quite a few of the the Great People pop-ups point out the hypocrisy of the Bannor. I guess a culture that takes the time to build a library or two get's to be intense but if you are orcs on a mission you are a savage. :rolleyes: Yes the ideas about 'savages' and 'barbarians' gets to me. I mean the Japanese did some truly horrible things to Allied troops during WW II but it was okay for the US to firebomb Tokyo and nuke cities. In most histories the Japanese were savage and evil while the US merely 'had to do what had to be done' which is just the polite way of saying we won and we get to write the history books. (And please before anyone gets indignant and says we did it to end the war just know I was an intel analyst for 17.5 years and have written a lengthy college papers on ways we could have demonstrated the atomic bomb without actually using it on a city so I'm not just talking out of my ass here.)

...and I'm preaching. Sorry. I spent a year preparing to go to Afghanistan and then a year there and spent a LOT of time CONSTANTLY trying to point out out to lots of soldiers who hadn't been 100 miles from their home that just because people do things differently than you doesn't make them stupid, evil or barbaric. :wallbash: (sigh)

Oh, historical note: the Norse were called barbarians by the many Europeans living in abject squalor. The only major difference was they had a few literate monks to write down how terrible the Vikings were for being smart enough to sack places with stuff to steal and to weak to defend it! :p

That's actually a good rant :p I like to point this kind of things to people who insult practices that aren't like theirs. It's so frustrating to see that you'd have to tell this to a whole bunch of people. Even though I called CoE savages some posts higher, I like to think that they aren't just "WAAAGH" and "BUUURN" and all. They are, to me, a quite interesting culture; certainly a bit violent and harsh (for me at least) but not less complicated than, say, the Elohim.

I think the same thing about the Ngomele. They are cannibals; even though they're less in the Age of Rebirth since they can prey on cattle but they still commonly eat their deads. While they are, it doesn't make them evil or barbarians. Quite the opposite: they have developped a complicated society gravitating towards their deads, the nature and their entertainers. At the dawn of the AoR, they were "barbarians" though: they weren't united and were continually waring each others. When Mvadang & Vungu stepped in, they united the gnolls of the isthmus and got them out of "barbarism". I think this backstory represents what you want about FiRe: peoples without a leader, kind of lost into harsh lands and then appears the mind that units them: BarbarianCiv is popping!

I think the same thing about the Ngomele. They are cannibals; even though they're less in the Age of Rebirth since they can prey on cattle but they still commonly eat their deads. While they are, it doesn't make them evil or barbarians.

I'm sorry that I haven't read all the back story on the Ngolome but I would think that often times when people/cultures do things out of necessity, they often come up with ways to justify it. Sort of the 'sour grapes' them of "I didn't really want those grapes after all" or "I'm not poor; I've cast off material ways."

Now, I'm not saying the Ngolome feel 'bad' about eating their dead; it may be just one of the things they do and don't understand what all the fuss is about. However, another way to think of it is would be for them to ritualized the process. In eating their own dead, they are 'recovering' the life energy of their own so it is not lost to entropy and chaos. Sort of like how the Vulcans in Star Trek try to recover the 'katra' of those before they die so it isn't just lost. Another idea is that they weren't always like this but the Age of Winter forced it upon them. Thus to make it a bit more (ahem) palatable, they ritualized the process and now keep at it even when not needed because it's part of their culture. A good fictional example of this can be seen in Larry Niven's Lucifer's Hammer where a charismatic leader 'bonds' his people together through cannibalism since after doing it, most people feel unclean and don't bother to run away since now they are tainted so better to stay with the group.

In regard to eating their enemies, it wouldn't be cannibalism but still probably quite frowned upon to say the least. Here I would think they would rationalize it as did many historical cannibal cultures in that you are 'eating your opponents' strength. Stealing their afterlife energy as it were not to mention sort of pissing on their grave in a way if that culture has specific funerary rites related to the the burial of a body.

When Mvadang & Vungu stepped in, they united the gnolls of the isthmus and got them out of "barbarism". I think this backstory represents what you want about FiRe: peoples without a leader, kind of lost into harsh lands and then appears the mind that units them: BarbarianCiv is popping!

Well that's what I see being the difference between savages, barbarians, minor civs and the active civs.

Savages: The wandering units that appear. No better than 'smart' animals in a way.
Barbarians: Pockets of people who have survived the Age of Ice but only in that "Mad Max" regressed sort of way. Mostly a despotic and primitive existence.
Minor Civs: Cultures that arise from barbarism. Yet lacking a unifying theme, ideal or charismatic leader. Usually just want to be left alone.
Active Civ: Obviously a civ that has the dynamism to expand and grow and not content just to live quietly in their own borders.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be cool to have a barbarian unit that is like the old Warlord Mongol unit that has a chance to randomly spawn a unit every turn and that unit would depend on the terrain tile it is in on that turn. That way you could have 'barbarian' migrations so typical in 'real' history. I mean people tend to forget the Celts originated in the East and ended up in the western part of Europe simply because there wasn't anywhere else to retreat to! I think that would be an interesting event, "The coming of the horde!" with a bunch of mounted barbarians, some of these 'mobile camps' and some infantry.

I'm sorry that I haven't read all the back story on the Ngolome but I would think that often times when people/cultures do things out of necessity, they often come up with ways to justify it. Sort of the 'sour grapes' them of "I didn't really want those grapes after all" or "I'm not poor; I've cast off material ways."

Now, I'm not saying the Ngolome feel 'bad' about eating their dead; it may be just one of the things they do and don't understand what all the fuss is about. However, another way to think of it is would be for them to ritualized the process. In eating their own dead, they are 'recovering' the life energy of their own so it is not lost to entropy and chaos. Sort of like how the Vulcans in Star Trek try to recover the 'katra' of those before they die so it isn't just lost. Another idea is that they weren't always like this but the Age of Winter forced it upon them. Thus to make it a bit more (ahem) palatable, they ritualized the process and now keep at it even when not needed because it's part of their culture. A good fictional example of this can be seen in Larry Niven's Lucifer's Hammer where a charismatic leader 'bonds' his people together through cannibalism since after doing it, most people feel unclean and don't bother to run away since now they are tainted so better to stay with the group.

In regard to eating their enemies, it wouldn't be cannibalism but still probably quite frowned upon to say the least. Here I would think they would rationalize it as did many historical cannibal cultures in that you are 'eating your opponents' strength. Stealing their afterlife energy as it were not to mention sort of pissing on their grave in a way if that culture has specific funerary rites related to the the burial of a body.They did in fact have to cannibalize during the Age of Winter. They greatly suffered from the snow times and as such they turned to themselves. They didn't stop waging war with the other tribes during the AoW because they used the dead bodies to survive. They didn't killed each other in the same tribe; it happened but was marginal and punished. When the AoW ended, eight tribes were left and preys began to reappear. Some tribes keeped their cannibalistic rites in a way or another and some didn't. This is partly the reason why the Mvadu and the Wugan tribes weren't unified: they refused because they decided to entirely drop their cannibalistic ways (but for very special occasions like the execution of Wiri Big-Heart). The five tribes composing the Ngomele are cannibals. Although, as you said, they have reasons to be so. To remain so, especially. Well before the Green Sea was followed (another thing that is not shared with the Mvadu and the Wugan), the Ngomele considered it an honor to eat the deads, especially the very important ones. They weren't thinking of power or energy but more of honor and "recorporation", as if the dead guy (though usually it was a chick) then flowed into everyone else. When the Green Sea spread (mostly thanks to the Zimge tribe), the thought that eating the deads, which belongs both to the nature and to the Ngomele, tied themselves more and more to the Sea. However, they don't eat everything on a body and they bury it in the deadgnolls copse. In it they grow mushrooms used for hallucinations and cooking (one of the non-meat thing they eat).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be cool to have a barbarian unit that is like the old Warlord Mongol unit that has a chance to randomly spawn a unit every turn and that unit would depend on the terrain tile it is in on that turn. That way you could have 'barbarian' migrations so typical in 'real' history. I mean people tend to forget the Celts originated in the East and ended up in the western part of Europe simply because there wasn't anywhere else to retreat to! I think that would be an interesting event, "The coming of the horde!" with a bunch of mounted barbarians, some of these 'mobile camps' and some infantry.Well, you can always try to implement it. I don't know at all how it's done... although I can think of ways to do it. I should try this mod :)

I think I've a bit of a problem here...

As you may know, I thought of making the Ngomele unable to build any improvement. Instead, they'd use buildings to add yields to the surrounding tiles of their cities. Some examples I thought of:

Ranch:
+1:food: on plains
+1:hammers: on plains

Granary:
+1:food: on grasslands

River Port:
+1:food: on river tiles
+1:commerce: on river tiles

Hunters Sorority:
+1:food: on every tile that hasn't already 3:food: or more

Unless otherwise stated, those modifications won't apply to either: city plot, tundra, snow, desert, sea plot or peak.

Theoretically, a flat plain without river could go up to 3:food: 2:hammers: and with river to 4:food: 2:hammers: 2:commerce: (the Ngomele benefiting from +1:food: on plains no matter what).

However, there is two (at least) serious issues:

1) What if the terrain changes? The yields won't (the extra yields would be applicated to the nature yields anyway) but then maybe some of those yields wouldn't have to be there. If this flat riverside plain tile of above did go to grassland, 2:food: and 1:hammers: from the extra yields and gain 1:food: and lose 1:hammers: from the nature yields changing; bringing it to 3:food: 2:commerce:. The technical side of the issue is that the extra yields are done at the creation of the building, once and for all (unless destruction of the city). It would certainly be painful to check every tile every turn... So I don't know what to do.

2) How to handle resources? If they can't build improvements, that means they can't grab resources, which is certainly wrong. Moreover, they would lose some pretty benefits from improvements on resources. So, I thought of two workarounds:
2a) Using special spells for the Worker unit that enable it to build improvements on top of resources.
2b) Using a ritual (in this case more a project): the Resources Handling Expedition. When finished, it would create needed improvements on top of resources in the big fat cross of the city.
Consequent issue of using improvements on resources: HUGE yields. Just adds the benefits of Horse+pasture on the flat riverside plain tile above...

I'm afraid about having to cut this feature out. I'd like to keep it but it seems to be a PITA to make it work correctly. The main obstacle is that I can't just do checks all the time. Even if it'd just checks around cities, it'd likely lengthen the time between turns. But it could be done with checks: for 1), checking each turn and applying good extra yields depending on the city infrastructure; for 2), adding a bit of code in the spell function (or the project's) to check what is the city's infrastructure and then redo the extra yields of the plot according to it.

You know what? Third issue showing its ugly face: how about overlapping BFC? If the two cities haven't the same infrastructure, the yields would be changed...

Huh, this is not good...

1) What if the terrain changes?

I would think Hell terrain would pretty much destroy this culture or at least push them to serious cannibalism.

Actually it's too bad no one knows how to make that Mongol camp unit work since in some sense the Ngolome would seem to either be like the Kuriotates in having a few cities and the rest nomadic units based on clan lines, or they would be like the Jotnar in having lots of little 1 tile square cities & limited in size. I mean the biggest problem traditionally for carnivores is it takes more 'space' to feed them. I mean the same area (making up numbers here) that might support 100 herbivores will only support 10 carnivores. Which is historically why omnivores tend to be animals on top of the food chain like bears and humans since they can 'cheat' and do both.

Anyway, unless the Ngolome do some serious herding and utilize plants that way, they are pretty much on the short end of the stick food wise.

Plus, there are only so many people of other races you can eat before everyone on Erebus decides that it would be better that the Ngolome weren't around. At least the Calabim can offer some of their potential 'meals' a chance at the immortality of the vampire's gift. About the best you can hope from the Ngolome is to give the one that ate you heart burn.

I actually had a little bit of an idea for these guys, although I'm not sure how, if at all, ballanced it would be. Taking their carnivorous nature to the extreme, flavor-wise they'd have a modification of the Jotnar cities. Small populations, say... fifteen in capital and ten in non-capital cities, but ALL of them would be able to work the third ring. Flavor wise this makes sense, hunters would have to roam farther to make sure they find food [Hence the 3 tile radius instead of 2], and although their crosses would intersect [it would be pointless not to since they CAN'T work all the tiles] they wouldn't be able to hunt the same area as a different hunting party. The reason I'm saying ten and fifteen is that I was thinking that, as warm-blooded mammalian styled carnivores, the amount of energy they expend would mean they would need to eat more... Is it possible to block them from Sacrifice the Weak, and make it so that they require more food per citizen? That way it should, theoretically, also ballance out... Sure they have more AVAILABLE tiles, but each tile "Counts" as less as well, meaning that even if they DO get a few "Super tiles" then what's the harm? Comparatively, their "super tiles" will be as useful for them [so long as it's only the food that's boosted alot...] as normally maximized tiles for others. And you gotta remember.. if they can't use improvements, improvment-boosting techs are useless, improvement-boosting civics are useles... Personally, I don't see why you don't just give them a "Gathering camp" unique improvement [If possible..] that doesn't increase tile yields but supplies any resource underneath it. They'll only have one improvement, true, but if you also made it expensive to create.. Slow build time and decent gold cost... It SHOULD be ballanced?

Ok, thank you, both of you. Thanks to your input (and, really, both) I think I have something to resolve my issues. I won't tell exactly how (need to keep some secrets :)) but you helped me greatly!

Just to reassure Ahwaric: I won't use new improvements. I just found out that I can write a bit of python to ensure that a Ngomele Worker won't be able to build improvements unless on top of resources. I just need to create the function (maybe inspiring from the breeding thing or a spell that is only triggered on top of resources).

Anyway, I just wrote a To-Do list for the Ngomele. It's a bit huge but at least I know (mostly) where I'm going now. There is still many things to work (unit lines, Shur spells) but it's near :goodjob:

I will test to see if this happens again. I tried to enable the display of buildingclass_civ_building1 in the civilization screen in the pedia but I failed :p
It will probably show in the 'replaced by' list if you add a default building in buildingclassinfos. Right now for civbuildings it is NONE, so it does not show.
So, I can make any unit that have OO as religion (state religion is irrelevant here) automatically gain a promotion? I would like to do that for RoK too but plus there will be a high level promotion.
Only in python. XML only allows checking for state religion.
Okay then. I attached the current editor I use. However, it misses the art defines for the leaders and buildings; it also misses the building class infos and the unit class infos. But since I think you won't need them right now, it's fine, right?
No, I just wanted to see what are the shema changes you need so I can prepaer it for you to save some visual basic problems. Plus check where you might have problems with editor. I need to check it more next time, only some space in civinfos is there for you. The files that are not in editor are used less, so I hope it will not need to be updated that often. It might be usefull to have them in editor, but I was not determined to add them yet.
Anyway, you will have hard time updating...
Off topic note: as I'm working on a few projects at the same time (I'm of the spreading kind, can't focus on a single thing) all concerning Orbis (thus not counting non-Civ related projects :p), I'm having a bit of trouble to separate them all in the editor.
Don't you worry with that. I am quite well trained in looking for the code I need. Doing it for quite some time already ;)
Just color code the fields in editor. I removed most of my coding (except added fields in green) so you can choos any colour you want :)
Even though I called CoE savages some posts higher, I like to think that they aren't just "WAAAGH" and "BUUURN" and all. They are, to me, a quite interesting culture; certainly a bit violent and harsh (for me at least) but not less complicated than, say, the Elohim.
I am not sure about Elohim, but certainly Bannor are no more complicated and are considered 'civilized'. But 'barbarian' started as a greek term for all non-greeks, so that included babylonians, persians and egyptians ;)
Funny you mention WAAGH! Form wiki, on Warhammer Orcs:
"Ork behavior is dominated by the Waaagh!, a gestalt psychic field they generate that affects the Ork psyche, as it allows Orks to instinctively recognize who is 'bigga' and therefore in charge. All Orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the Orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting. The Waaagh! helps give momentum (and the name) to the Orks' planet-crushing Waaagh!s. These Waaagh!s are a cross between a mass migration, holy war, looting party and pub crawl, with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure."
Also, the waaagh! is used by orc shamans to do magic :)
Ok, thank you, both of you. Thanks to your input (and, really, both) I think I have something to resolve my issues. I won't tell exactly how (need to keep some secrets :)) but you helped me greatly!

Just to reassure Ahwaric: I won't use new improvements. I just found out that I can write a bit of python to ensure that a Ngomele Worker won't be able to build improvements unless on top of resources.
I wonder what that is :mischief:
I am not sure if your idea can be implemented well without dll changes to make it work as extra yields from sea (i.e. lighthouse). It is certainly unique and interesting, but hard to balance and even harder to code. In general, it is best if all this is handled by the city, so the tiles themselves are not touched. There are plenty of tile changes in FfH (hell terrain, ice, terraforming spells), so it might be quite complicated to make it work.
I would probably allow them to build pastures or camps without bonus (doable in python). You can just add some special yields for specific improvements. Now that I think of it, a unique improvement does not seem that bad. Python per turn slows turns and I already do not feel well using it for forts and deep jungle.
Anyway, that is your civ, so you need to decide what you think is best. I am just glad it is not my role ;)

Now some plus sides. First, how do you like the gnoll racial icon (attached below). Second, council tree is in the orbis art pak file for patch 0.22d and in art defines for buildings (on top) so you just need to link the building to it. It might use some enlargement though, as it is a wonder.
I am working on gauri buildings, some of them seem to be broken and that was the reason for your problems.

Updated!
It was quite easy, in fact. I used WinMerge (which I then just discovered and all I have to say is that it's really useful) for Python and the editor for XML (and WinMerge for the non-editor friendly files). I had a bit of trouble with the new lines you added but it was quick to repair. Now I can mod on 0.22d :)

It will probably show in the 'replaced by' list if you add a default building in buildingclassinfos. Right now for civbuildings it is NONE, so it does not show.I could try. If I put NONE for those without a civbuilding, they won't be able to use the "default" building, I think. I'll give it a try, just because it would be nice to see all the unique buildings a civilization has. However, for the unique classes, it won't work. Their isn't many unique buildingclasses but their is quite a number of unique unitclasses.

Just color code the fields in editor. I removed most of my coding (except added fields in green) so you can choos any colour you want :)Great! I kept my soft red :)

Funny you mention WAAGH!I'm not a fan of this universe but I did do some research a while back (don't remember why) and I found this. It really made me laugh :lol:

I am not sure if your idea can be implemented well without dll changes to make it work as extra yields from sea (i.e. lighthouse). It is certainly unique and interesting, but hard to balance and even harder to code. In general, it is best if all this is handled by the city, so the tiles themselves are not touched. There are plenty of tile changes in FfH (hell terrain, ice, terraforming spells), so it might be quite complicated to make it work.
I would probably allow them to build pastures or camps without bonus (doable in python). You can just add some special yields for specific improvements. Now that I think of it, a unique improvement does not seem that bad. Python per turn slows turns and I already do not feel well using it for forts and deep jungle.
Anyway, that is your civ, so you need to decide what you think is best. I am just glad it is not my role ;)I will try with Python for now. If it's finally too hard to balance or to keep track of due to terrain changes, I will try to mod the DLL (I may try that anyway). If it's really a PITA, I'll revert back to what you said (more or less). Although the pasture without resource is a neat idea. Hm, need to think!

Now some plus sides. First, how do you like the gnoll racial icon (attached below). Second, council tree is in the orbis art pak file for patch 0.22d and in art defines for buildings (on top) so you just need to link the building to it. It might use some enlargement though, as it is a wonder.
I am working on gauri buildings, some of them seem to be broken and that was the reason for your problems. First: it's great! I love it! Thanks :)
Second: Neat and like it too! Thanks twice :)
Third: Alright then. I was still wondering if I had done something weird with those buildings.

A bit of update on my side:
The beta is still not close. Holidays are coming to an end (even though they might get extended due to teachers strike here) so maybe a couple of weeks more to wait, depending on my work rate. I still have many python to do (and I really like doing it, so much more than doing XML!) and some XML along with it. No unit is ready yet and just a few buildings.

An idea I had when looking to all the gnoll art I gathered is to add some gnoll GPs. I have three right now and maybe some others to come. I won't add a lot of them, maybe 5 or 6. If you prefer, Ahwaric, I'll release them in another pack, so you don't have to bother with them if you don't want to ;)

Finally, two other things: I want to add the diplo music for the beta (more waiting time for civ_king ;)) and will do it. BTW, would it be zealous to add two music, one for peace and one for war? I just don't know how to choose just one :lol: Secondly: I warn you that no model is ready yet. I'll have to contact Valkrionn about it but if I don't have any model for the beta, I'll release it nonetheless. I care more about the music than the models for now. But eventually, I'll need them. Might have to look at some tutorials...

However, there is two (at least) serious issues:

1) What if the terrain changes? The yields won't (the extra yields would be applied to the nature yields anyway) but then maybe some of those yields wouldn't have to be there. If this flat riverside plain tile of above did go to grassland, 2:food: and 1:hammers: from the extra yields and gain 1:food: and lose 1:hammers: from the nature yields changing; bringing it to 3:food: 2:commerce:. The technical side of the issue is that the extra yields are done at the creation of the building, once and for all (unless destruction of the city). It would certainly be painful to check every tile every turn... So I don't know what to do.

2) How to handle resources? If they can't build improvements, that means they can't grab resources, which is certainly wrong. Moreover, they would lose some pretty benefits from improvements on resources. So, I thought of two workarounds:
2a) Using special spells for the Worker unit that enable it to build improvements on top of resources.
2b) Using a ritual (in this case more a project): the Resources Handling Expedition. When finished, it would create needed improvements on top of resources in the big fat cross of the city.
Consequent issue of using improvements on resources: HUGE yields. Just adds the benefits of Horse+pasture on the flat riverside plain tile above...

I'm afraid about having to cut this feature out. I'd like to keep it but it seems to be a PITA to make it work correctly. The main obstacle is that I can't just do checks all the time. Even if it'd just checks around cities, it'd likely lengthen the time between turns. But it could be done with checks: for 1), checking each turn and applying good extra yields depending on the city infrastructure; for 2), adding a bit of code in the spell function (or the project's) to check what is the city's infrastructure and then redo the extra yields of the plot according to it.

You know what? Third issue showing its ugly face: how about overlapping BFC? If the two cities haven't the same infrastructure, the yields would be changed...

Huh, this is not good...

You really do need to be in the DLL unfortunately. Or wait till I get around to Aspects, but that could be more than a year still, and I doubt you'd want to wait ;)


You can even connect resources without requiring improvements if you get into the DLL. And since you can base the tile changes on the city instead of the tile, you can have it only affect the tiles which this city controls, thus avoiding tile overlap issues.

So, hate to say it, but you have to embrace the TRUE dark side of the modding world sooner or later. Why not now? :ninja:

So, hate to say it, but you have to embrace the TRUE dark side of the modding world sooner or later. Why not now?Because it scary! :eek:

I think I could follow the bread crumbs of RiverPlot and mimic it for PlainPlot, GrassPlot, etc. However, I'm really afraid at the thought of modding these huge messy files :lol:

Yeah, I've avoided the DLL like a plague... Haven't had anything to do in there yet, thankfully.

With the art from Warcraft, I just could not get it to work. I know a bit more about 3DS so I could possibly get it right this time, but my 30 day trial is up. :lol: I'll try again once I'm finished with Doviello+ though.

No problem, take your time :)

xienwolf: Would you mind explaining to me or pointing threads where I could have a description of what you mean by Aspects?

Updated!
It was quite easy, in fact. I used WinMerge (which I then just discovered and all I have to say is that it's really useful) for Python and the editor for XML (and WinMerge for the non-editor friendly files). I had a bit of trouble with the new lines you added but it was quick to repair. Now I can mod on 0.22d :)

I could try. If I put NONE for those without a civbuilding, they won't be able to use the "default" building, I think. I'll give it a try, just because it would be nice to see all the unique buildings a civilization has. However, for the unique classes, it won't work. Their isn't many unique buildingclasses but their is quite a number of unique unitclasses.

Great! I kept my soft red :)

I'm not a fan of this universe but I did do some research a while back (don't remember why) and I found this. It really made me laugh :lol:

I will try with Python for now. If it's finally too hard to balance or to keep track of due to terrain changes, I will try to mod the DLL (I may try that anyway). If it's really a PITA, I'll revert back to what you said (more or less). Although the pasture without resource is a neat idea. Hm, need to think!

First: it's great! I love it! Thanks :)
Second: Neat and like it too! Thanks twice :)
Third: Alright then. I was still wondering if I had done something weird with those buildings.

A bit of update on my side:
The beta is still not close. Holidays are coming to an end (even though they might get extended due to teachers strike here) so maybe a couple of weeks more to wait, depending on my work rate. I still have many python to do (and I really like doing it, so much more than doing XML!) and some XML along with it. No unit is ready yet and just a few buildings.

An idea I had when looking to all the gnoll art I gathered is to add some gnoll GPs. I have three right now and maybe some others to come. I won't add a lot of them, maybe 5 or 6. If you prefer, Ahwaric, I'll release them in another pack, so you don't have to bother with them if you don't want to ;)

Finally, two other things: I want to add the diplo music for the beta (more waiting time for civ_king ;)) and will do it. BTW, would it be zealous to add two music, one for peace and one for war? I just don't know how to choose just one :lol: Secondly: I warn you that no model is ready yet. I'll have to contact Valkrionn about it but if I don't have any model for the beta, I'll release it nonetheless. I care more about the music than the models for now. But eventually, I'll need them. Might have to look at some tutorials...
:( meany...

Oh yeah, sorry. Was in a hurry then. Aspects is one of the major systems I have planned to design for the game, it is essentially a promotion system for plots. Thus for your plot yield changes you would simply place a prereqTerrainType and prereqWorkingBuilding and they would work flawlessly as envisioned.

And the plant civ would be completely controlled by aspects as well. :p

Will be great! But I won't wait till then, I'll just use python for now; now being the time it takes to learn to mod the DLL. Surely, when your Aspects come out, I'll use them though ;)

As for the plant civ, is there a post where your idea is described? I'm pretty sure it's different from mine :p

There was, but I've been completely unable to find it.... It's somewhere in the FF forum. :p

Update time!

I added the Soul Forge-esque building mechanic. So far, it checks some things to set the amount of food brought in the nearest city, like if the unit is a beast, if Animal Husbandry and/or Tracking has been discovered, etc. For now, the building is a replacement of the smokehouse that is available from start but I may make it a building that comes with city founding. Makes more sense as they are that way, scavenging nearby deads.

I also added +30% vs. animal units for every Gnoll. They are brilliant hunters. And yes, it means that the Scout as +30 and +50% against animals unit. I may replace it with an early hunter, less mobile but able to gain the "food carrying" promotions. Thus he would have to be tough enough to be useful at this :)

The next high priority things I have to do are:
- Working the Improvers buildings (the ones that change the terrain)
- Working on a late game (high AC) ritual
- Adding the "carry food" mechanic
- Working units & buildings

I also still have no world spell and no idea for the Shur spells (apart that I would like to split it in two "path", basically "offensive" and "buffing" paths).

Added the "carry food" mechanic. Using another callback, though...
From start, there is 10% chance to get a "carry food" promotion after winning a combat, for any unit having the gnoll promotion. Some promotions (new ones) enhance this chance. I think of adding more numerous but less strong "enhancing chance" checks. For the moment, there is only two that add each 30 to a variable that needs to be at least at 90 for the promotion to be gained.

I still have to do the "use food" side. As I said (much) earlier, the more food the unit has, the more interesting the effects of using it will be.

I would like the "carry food" promotions to have a chance to wear off per turn and then degrade to the level below but the problem is that when I check if the unit earned its promotion, I remove the previous one. So, if it has Food1, it is removed and Food2 is given. However, due to the inherent mechanics of PromotionDegradesTo, if I remove Food1 this way, the unit automatically gain NoFood; if I remove Food2 to give Food3, it gains Food1! Maybe this can be worked around by disallowing other food promotions when one is active. May try that :)

I'm not sure if it would work... or what EXACTLY the food promos do... But perhaps make them stack, lower the give-out so that even stacked they'll end up doing what they would orriginally [for example, food1 gives the city 10 food when used, food 2 gives 20... so just have that give 10 as well and stack them.] That way you can have it so that it only removes one of them, and it won't really matter which one gets removed? Might be easier, or might be harder.

@BenjaminEmbarec: Well, this could work. It may take too much place on the screen though... Three "useless" promotions :p

Would it be to much to use one music theme for peace and one for war, seeing that all others use just one? I can't choose between all those songs...

Honestly, I'd prefer as much music as possible. :lol:

make a bunch... (well get a bunch that is) music is good, maybe a gamelan band's music would work (just found a youtube of one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orUftdTlDow&feature=related)

I was more thinking about three tracks of the Serpent's Egg (http://www.deezer.com/fr#music/album/105795) (Dead Can Dance again!). Namely, the 06, Chant of the Paladin; the 08, Echolalia and the 09, Mother Tongue. Particularly the 08 and 09.

I will dump the "only by building" improved terrain tiles. Well, not entirely; let me explain. I will still use this mechanic but only with more "stable" features than with terrain types. The more stable feature I'm referring to are: hills, coast, ocean and rivers. Well, peaks too but I don't plan on using them. Coast, ocean and rivers must not vary at all during a game, I think. You can't turn an ocean tile to a plain tile, for example. A flat->hill spell must exist (Khazad?) but it doesn't really concern the Ngomele... So the bonus on hills would be terrain type free, meaning I won't check every turn if the bonus should rescale or not. For coast, ocean and rivers, there won't be a need to check either.

However, this doesn't mean that they will be able to build improvements. At least, not every improvement. They will be able to build them on resources (BTW, they would have a huge food penalty for farms) and will be able to build some of them elsewhere. "Some of them" = two improvements: the pasture and the ranch (a new one, since Ahwaric said "it's not that bad" :p). They will only be buildable on, respectively, grasslands and plains. I'll use the ranch for horses, giving them more food.

So, mostly, I tweaked my initial idea because it was hard to do, a pain for the game to check and a pain for me to balance nicely, especially late game wise. With the ranch, I could use some techs to improve it in order to make it competitive against other late game improvements. I couldn't really to that appropriately otherwise.

Sounds good... If only Xienwolf had made his aspect system already. :lol:

I don't think I'd make the ranch TOO competitive. Rather, I'd give them a UB or two for commerce and call it a day.

Certainly. They will heavily rely on their buildings to build their economy, both (thrice?) for food, hammers and commerce. Anyway, we'll see after the beta and some test games :p

However, I don't want to see all the countryside clogged up with pasture and ranches... Maybe a thing like the pirate coves? Not in 3 tiles or something...

To do that, you have to resort to spells sadly. Which the AI doesn't understand.

No, I don't think I must. Just do a BUILD_RANCH and check in the callback canBuild if another BUILD_RANCH is in the area. I think it's the way it's done now in Orbis pour pirate coves :)

holy . .. .. .. .. Why did I not ever think of that? Might have to make some changes to Malakim+ now.....

Added the "carry food" mechanic. Using another callback, though...
I can see some dll changes that would be helpful:
Python on combat won, but for promotion. It is already in unitinfos, and I could use it a few time already. I doubt I can do it myslef though... Will see what can be done, or maytber someone else will code it (Xienwolf? :mischief:)
plot yeild change for specific terrains - basicaly adapting Jean Elcard code for terrains from civinfos. Same as above, and that would be the best solution for Ngomele, with some improvements for resources.
I am still not convinced for the no-improvement idea. Wonder how will it work for tolerant leaders and Decius...
Anyway, I will let you show it first, then test I will test it and only then say what do I think about it.

To do that, you have to resort to spells sadly. Which the AI doesn't understand.
Nope. Just canbuild callback in CvGameUtils. I already use it for forts and pirate coves - no spell for them in Orbis.

Edit: Opera was faster :)
And Valkrionn, it is disabled by default in PythonCallbackDefines.xml in FfH (but not in FF)
I forgot to enable it at first so decided to mention it just in case ;)

I can see some dll changes that would be helpful:
Python on combat won, but for promotion. It is already in unitinfos, and I could use it a few time already. I doubt I can do it myslef though... Will see what can be done, or maytber someone else will code it (Xienwolf? :mischief:)

Already in. Wasn't working right until the latest patch, but I've used it a few times already in Doviello+. The thing is useful as hell lol. <PythonPostCombatWon>


plot yeild change for specific terrains - basicaly adapting Jean Elcard code for terrains from civinfos. Same as above, and that would be the best solution for Ngomele, with some improvements for resources.
I am still not convinced for the no-improvement idea. Wonder how will it work for tolerant leaders and Decius...
Anyway, I will let you show it first, then test I will test it and only then say what do I think about it.


Nope. Just canbuild callback in CvGameUtils. I already use it for forts and pirate coves - no spell for them in Orbis.

Edit: Opera was faster :)
And Valkrionn, it is disabled by default in PythonCallbackDefines.xml in FfH (but not in FF)
I forgot to enable it at first so decided to mention it just in case ;)

So it is enabled in FF?

Already in. Wasn't working right until the latest patch, but I've used it a few times already in Doviello+. The thing is useful as hell lol. <PythonPostCombatWon>
Great! Guess the list in modder's guide was not updated recently. I will try to get it to Orbis, too.
So it is enabled in FF?
Yes, Scions use it for desert cottages

I can see some dll changes that would be helpful:
Python on combat won, but for promotion. It is already in unitinfos, and I could use it a few time already. I doubt I can do it myslef though... Will see what can be done, or maytber someone else will code it (Xienwolf? :mischief:)
plot yeild change for specific terrains - basicaly adapting Jean Elcard code for terrains from civinfos. Same as above, and that would be the best solution for Ngomele, with some improvements for resources.
I am still not convinced for the no-improvement idea. Wonder how will it work for tolerant leaders and Decius...
Anyway, I will let you show it first, then test I will test it and only then say what do I think about it.Yes, PythonPostCombatWon would be useful for the Ngomele too. I would like to know if the safeRemove function is available in Orbis?

I didn't think about the Tolerant and Conqueror traits... Hm. This idea is definitely problematic :lol:

nice new picture Opera, whose is it?
BTW good to see more progress
any ETA?

nice new picture Opera, whose is it?
BTW good to see more progress
any ETA?It's a picture by Mingchuan Wang (http://alwang.cgsociety.org/gallery/666844/) that I found on the CGSociety. It represents a certain Xiao Qiao, a Chinese lady from the Three Kingdoms period. I might create a great person with her art :)

ETA: With a bit of optimism, in one week.

I thought of a world spell that could be nice... a bit powerful perhaps.

Edge of Extinction

For 30 turns (scaled), everytime a unit of X race dies, all other units of same race within 3 tiles take 33 damage; 1 of them dies instantly.

I don't really know how to balance/prereq that.

--

I'm working on the spellcasters right now. I'm thinking about merging the arcane and divine lines together and about restricting usable mana to balance their unique spells. I've thought of some for now but not enough yet for what I plan.

?? Every time a unit of one race dies, all within range take damage, and one of them dies? Doesn't that mean that the one who was killed will then ALSO damage all units in range 33% and kill 1, which will then annihilate everything in mutual range of the previous 2? It just seems like the domino effect from hell if you hit a unit in a city or something...

?? Every time a unit of one race dies, all within range take damage, and one of them dies? Doesn't that mean that the one who was killed will then ALSO damage all units in range 33% and kill 1, which will then annihilate everything in mutual range of the previous 2? It just seems like the domino effect from hell if you hit a unit in a city or something...Oops. Didn't think of that :lol:

Well, maybe only the damage then. With maybe a tiny chance of killing one unit, triggering effectively a domino effect which would most likely not be triggered again after that. But could the damages kill units? If so, that would cause even more deaths...

You should be able to specify a cap on the damage, even just 99 prevents going domino on it, but still lets it be devastating to the opponent.

If I'm reading it right.. that would be a two-edged sword. What if a unit of YOUR race dies? Wouldn't it trigger it against his own people?

... Dude, actually, that would be a SWEET "No war" mechanism... They could fight but it would be DEADLY for a while and probably leave few survivors unless you used assassination warfare... and got really lucky.

If I'm reading it right.. that would be a two-edged sword. What if a unit of YOUR race dies? Wouldn't it trigger it against his own people?

... Dude, actually, that would be a SWEET "No war" mechanism... They could fight but it would be DEADLY for a while and probably leave few survivors unless you used assassination warfare... and got really lucky.Yes, you're reading right. I think it would be a nice drawback.

However, I don't know how to implement it. I suppose I should use onUnitKilled but... I don't know how to link it to the worldspellcasting or to the time it should last.

.....If this were FF I'd say use an effect promotion with a postcombatwon tag, added to all Gnoll units by the worldspell, that will run the python.. Probably need a postcombatlost also, to run the dmg to Gnolls when a gnoll dies. Then again, I just love those tags. :lol: They're like magic, honestly... Allows you to do anything. :p

Yeah, too bad they aren't available in Orbis for the moment. However, for this spell, my idea was that any race unit dying anywhere in the world would trigger the effect. May be a bit too catastrophic, armageddonesque-whatever, though... :lol:

Ah, would have to add the promotion to all living units then. Would make the postcombatlost tag a bit harder to code, but still doable... :lol:

Well, not really that much harder to code... It'll be very harder to process for the game when casting the spell at turn 600 :lol:

I'm still progressing. Created the first Shur spell today :) I haven't yet decided how to meddle with the arcane/adept lines but I knew I would use this spell which just fit them. I won't say more about spells, keeping some surprises for the beta!

Anyway, I added quite a lot of promotions since the beginning... I think the Ngomele might turn off the players who don't like micromanagement. In the FF idea, I added some bits of equipment and to balance some useful abilities, I had to give them side effects. I hope it won't be to painful to play, especially late game when you'll have a bunch of units.

Anyway, I added quite a lot of promotions since the beginning... I think the Ngomele might turn off the players who don't like micromanagement. In the FF idea, I added some bits of equipment and to balance some useful abilities, I had to give them side effects. I hope it won't be to painful to play, especially late game when you'll have a bunch of units.

Slackers! Probably the same people that . .. .. .. .. .ed about the system in SM:AC! It's not like Civ is a real-time game! :p

Anyway, I added quite a lot of promotions since the beginning... I think the Ngomele might turn off the players who don't like micromanagement. In the FF idea, I added some bits of equipment and to balance some useful abilities, I had to give them side effects. I hope it won't be to painful to play, especially late game when you'll have a bunch of units.

Do not worry, I try to make Occam's Razor my second name, so you can count on me pointing out redundant features.
And cutting them ;) I like to cut, leaping from tree to tree! As they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia!

:crazyeye:

Do not worry, I try to make Occam's Razor my second name, so you can count on me pointing out redundant features.
And cutting them ;) I like to cut, leaping from tree to tree! As they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia!

:crazyeye:Right :lol:

The_Coyote did a Gnoll Warrior (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8065566&postcount=2365) after I asked for it in the Unit Requests thread. I think it does look nice. I'll try to take some tutorials in order to modify it but it's a good start :)

Easy way to control your worldspell effect (possibly):

Python check runs after each combat to see if it should process this effect. First check is if the Gnolls are in the game, second check is to see if they have the Feat set for Worldspell has been Cast (same one that enables construction of Birthright regained). I don't know if anything else in Orbis uses it yet, but hijack the Scenario Counter to store the turn that the Worldspell was cast, and the third check in your python will compare the turn number stored there with the current turn number to see if you are within the "window" for the effect to be active.

Obviously this requires python run when the worldspell is cast to store the current turn number in the Scenario Counter. Alternatively, if the Scenario Counter isn't available, the Worldspell creates a Fort Commander type of unit in the capital who is assigned a duration equal to how long you want the effect to last. Then the python for your effect to happen just checks if this dude is alive or not.


Assuming all of the required tags are imported, you could also achieve this entire setup without having the python run for EVERY combat EVER to happen by linking a building in the capital to the timer (feat + Scenario Counter or Fort Commander type unit), then you set up an AutoAcquire/MustMaintain promotion which controls your postcombat effect that requires this building.

Hmm... So... I would have to check the reqs for the spell to be casted, then launch the PyResult which would activate the Feat and store the current turn into the ScenarioCounter; just using gc.getGame().setScenarioCounter(iCurrentTurn)? Or would I need anything else in order to use the scenario counter?

Then, in EventManager, in onCombatResult, I would check if the Gnolls are in game, if their Feat is activated and if iCurrentTurn - getScenarioCounter() < 30, for example, then if it is, run the code?

I get it. However, is there something I should now about the scenario counter? And about the feats? I saw that in FF you have a FeatInfos.xml but we don't have it in Orbis... would I need to add a feat for the Ngomele or the worldspell feat is tied to the player? Hm, now that I think about it, it is likely to be tied to a particular player.

Global spells all automatically set the feat for you, so you just need to worry about the Counter, and that should work how you wrote it.

The FeatInfo.xml in Fall Further is from an attempt to move Feats completely out of the DLL. Something went wrong though and I had to put them back, but we kept the file because by then we needed to associate text keys with the feats since some were prerequisites for promotions (actually I am not sure we actually use that anymore...)

Right :lol:

The_Coyote did a Gnoll Warrior (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8065566&postcount=2365) after I asked for it in the Unit Requests thread. I think it does look nice. I'll try to take some tutorials in order to modify it but it's a good start :)

Looks good, but it might be a bit too tall... At least, I've always pictured gnolls as shorter. :lol:

Looks good, but it might be a bit too tall... At least, I've always pictured gnolls as shorter. :lol:Yeah. In fact, I'll see them with wider shoulders, lower head and tougher body overall. Smaller, maybe not. They are, to me at least, big, strong beasts. But, for now, it's good to have this model :)

xienwolf: Thanks, I'll try that soon. So, you won't try to add feats in the XML in the future?

is this version a better match of your imagination?

Yes, thanks! You're surprised me (again). I didn't expect it. Since you are here, would you mind get rid of their blue/grey hips and darken their fur? It would be especially darker on the neck and chest. A longer skirt/loincloth would be great too. If you think it's too much work, that's okay ;)

In fact, I think I could use both of them: the bigger one for the females (understand: most on the units) and the slimmer for the males. Of course, there would have to be a lot of modifications to do each unit... I won't try that until I have a beta version though.

at least played around a bit with the textures [couldn´t decide if red or grey clothes are better, so both are there, the one named wolf_alpha.dds is used]

btw, the pant was the mane of the wolf ...

I like it. However, I don't know either which color pleases me the most... I think I'll go for grey. Well, no, both are great, I'll use them to differenciate my units. 2 models, 2 colors? 4 units! Yay! :)

Thanks a lot for your time, The_Coyote! :goodjob:

The_Coyote is amazing. :p The camel riders I used for Malakim+ were made by him. :goodjob:

I might sit down to get it possible to add new Feats through XML only sometime, Pretty sure I figured out at one point what I had done wrong initially anyway. But it'll be a while till I do so, too many other things to work on, and making new feats easier to add isn't going to make the code much more robust, so isn't much of a priority.

Walter Hawkwood just released the last pack of his Kohan II imports series (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8071766#post8071766). I think I'll have some great use of most of those, if Ahwaric doesn't want to use them for anything else.

The world spell is working great! A bit too powerful so I'll adjust that. I think the damages depend on the unit winning the combat. The effects would certainly be devastating as it strikes anywhere on the world :p

I've planned three releases, mostly because I don't want to release a supposedly final version just to have a chunk of things to change. So, there will be a beta version, the Mvadang release, due for saturday 16 of this month. Wouldn't be included in it:
- The magic line, spells and all; I have a lot to do on this so it may not be done for the deadline (but it is, at least, partially done)
- The equipment system; again, need a lot of thoughts and work, and again, partially done
- The religion work; same reasons
- The graphics; I certainly won't be able to do this myself, so... not done at all (bar the models provided by The_Coyote :goodjob:)
- The texts; English not being my mother tongue, it's still a bit difficult to write lore texts but I'll do it eventuallyPlease be aware that the date is still flexible. If I'm near the end of, say, the equipment system, I'll push the date a bit. Anyway, I would like the beta to be released this week-end. Hope I'll be able to :)

looking forward to trying them out. :goodjob:

Well, well...

Beta still not ready. I had troubles to focus lately, hence the delay. I don't swear it will be released today but it will certainly be tomorrow, at least. Today at best, of course :)

I have decided to go all out and to add the spells in the beta. Much of their flavour and function is related to the arcane and disciple units so I thought it was ideal to add them for the beta, also because it's one thing that will need balance above all others. The problem is that I want to have a good chunk of spells for you to toy with in the beta... So it's taking a bit of time. Again, sorry folks.

However, I know for sure what won't be in this beta. The following list is nearly the same as the previous but is certain:
- The Equipment system
- Most of the graphics (even though I did add some buildings and many promotions/spells buttons)
- Most of the flavour text (I'll try to add the helps for the beta)
- The Religion work
- The unique Druid unit and its abilites
- The unique abilities of Banung
- Three events I plan to add, one tied to Banung&Nga, one tied to Equipment and one tied to Druid
- The modification of yields with buildings, definitely tricky to add

So, this means that there will be a lot of work to do after the beta!

But I shouldn't be posting here, I should certainly finish all this instead... :D

Hm. Well. Huh... Tomorrow. I won't be able to release the beta today. That's no big deal I think but I wanted to notice you (is there someone? I had little answers since my first post about the beta release... are you all waiting so eagerly? :p).

Most of my delay is caused by the spells. It's hard to create interesting spells that are not just the copy of preexisting ones. Finding buttons, writing python... And there is a lot of spells!

Anyway, I hope you won't mind to wait another day.
I think I won't talk about deadlines anymore :lol:

Don't really feel rushed or stressed out by deadlines. The important thing is to have fun and make the changes that you feel are right. Even if there are a few little things wrong it's just a Beta, I'm sure that whenever you release it people will enjoy your civ. Personally I know that I am looking forward to it.

:cry: even if you finish it tomorrow I wont be able to play for a while because i DON'T have my disc (I lent it to my Dad because I didn't think Ngomele would be out soon)

Here, uploaded my Orbis editor for Ahwaric.

I'm waiting to see how things go with the update before releasing the beta (which is still not ready anyway). If Ahwaric updates Orbis really quickly, I will wait until that to release the beta.

What the hell am I thinking? I forgot again to attach this damn file! :mad:

hurry, please?

where art though Opera?

Opy said that Opy is waiting to find out about the next Orbis update. And I get a strange feeling that Orbis might be waiting till the next FFH2 patch since one's allready in the works...

The real question is, since we know where Opy is, where's Andy?

:p

I didn't think someone would call me Opy here :crazyeye:
I think I get the joke... but I'm not sure. Opy, Opie?

I'm still working. I know when, approximately, the new Orbis patch should be released and I don't think I will release before. It would be much better for everyone to play with the new patch and my civ, rather than with my civ but without the new patch.

I've still some work to do on the Kha unit (y'know, the males :p) which would be one of the defining features. After that, I will mostly be busy adding the texts and waiting for the patch :)

(And then, of course, I have some more features planned for the Gamma!)

Hey if you don't like Opy tell me and I'll stop. :p

And Opie and Andy, not 100% familiar with the history behind it, but I do know it's american slang for pot at least... Something about Opie and Andy smoking out behind the shed or something like that.

I'm waiting patiently, dear, unlike some of the other hopefuls. :p

Hey if you don't like Opy tell me and I'll stop. :p

And Opie and Andy, not 100% familiar with the history behind it, but I do know it's american slang for pot at least... Something about Opie and Andy smoking out behind the shed or something like that.

I'm waiting patiently, dear, unlike some of the other hopefuls. :p
Opium?????

Er... maybe? I avoid drugs so I really don't know all that much. Alcohol on the other hand... <3 Like one of my friends has a family recipe for some kinda potato vodka he makes every now and then that's badass.... Still kinda mad he refuses to give me the recipe. :/

Er... maybe? I avoid drugs so I really don't know all that much. Alcohol on the other hand... <3 Like one of my friends has a family recipe for some kinda potato vodka he makes every now and then that's badass.... Still kinda mad he refuses to give me the recipe. :/

potato vodka does sound b@d@$$

potato vodka? 0_o

Er... maybe? I avoid drugs so I really don't know all that much. Alcohol on the other hand... <3 Like one of my friends has a family recipe for some kinda potato vodka he makes every now and then that's badass.... Still kinda mad he refuses to give me the recipe. :/

where are you from?

Hey if you don't like Opy tell me and I'll stop. :pNo no, I like it. Many friends nickname me that... Hence why I was surprised :lol:

Erm, what is this conversation doing here, folks? :p

--

Anyway, two things:

1) I was going to remove mounted units entirely for the Ngomele. I might still do that if the following idea isn't great. What idea? The Gnolls are huge people. They're not giants of course but they're taller and bigger than humans... so I don't see them on a lion or a horse. However, I do see them on cattle. Yes, cattle isn't that useful for combat...

Cattle Rider
replaces Horseman
5:strength:
2:move: [Horseman has 3:move:]
10% Withdrawal [Horseman has 25%]
no flanking strike [Horseman has 100 against catapults and cannons]
no first strike [Horseman has 1]
can receive defensive bonus [Horseman can't]
0% city attack [Horseman has -20%]
ignores terrain cost [May not be wise...]
requires Cow
can acquire the Cart promotion: reduces :strength: but gives +2 Cargo and the ability to transport food to other cities

So? Thoughts? On this, not on vodka, please :D

2) I'm setting up the flavour values for the Ngomele. Numbers are weight. For now, I have:
- Riverside: 4
- Food: 3
- Plains: 2
- Cows: 2
- Standing Stones: 1

Why?
Riverside: Because they live near a river in my mind. A big, slow river. They use the fish in it as part of their meals. They use it to communicate quickly between towns (quickier than using the cattle rider) and as a mean for trade routes. I think it would be their main source of "power" too. They love the wheel!

Food: Well, this is more a gameplay thing than a lore thing. They require more food than other civs (4 per pop point instead of 3) so I figured they could use more food in starts.

Plains: The Lemlwa Isthmus is a wide plain (in which a river is flowing!). It extends south. North are some hills and jungle (Clan territory mostly). They thrive in plains, that's all :)

Cows: Cattle is their main source of food. They have many pastures and the cowherd profession is very common. They also ride them (or so it seems). Lorewise, they don't know horses.

Standing Stones: They revere Nature. Standing Stones are the symbol of Nature.

So? Thoughts? You know what I think of vodka, don't you? :p

I love the cattle rider idea... Although, if you're going that route, might I suggest this for a horse archer UU? Just have to switch out the rider with a gnoll. :lol:

I like you're weighting there, though I do have a question: Are they able to use vegetable food? If not, I'd put a large negative weighting towards corn, rice, wheat, and whatever else there is. :lol: Otherwise they may have what looks like an AMAZING start, only to discover they can't actually use any of the food.

And another, unrelated question: Have you put in their diplo music? I've tried to get new music for my mod, but cannot get it to load correctly.

I love the cattle rider idea... Although, if you're going that route, might I suggest this for a horse archer UU? Just have to switch out the rider with a gnoll. :lol:That's actually great :lol: It could be really fun to see a war with cattle and giraffe and humanoid hyenas!

I like you're weighting there, though I do have a question: Are they able to use vegetable food? If not, I'd put a large negative weighting towards corn, rice, wheat, and whatever else there is. :lol: Otherwise they may have what looks like an AMAZING start, only to discover they can't actually use any of the food.Yes they are able to use vegetable food. I have added a -2 from farm (though this seems not to be enough) however and their granary won't have much benefits from them. But you're right, something needs to be done here... I think I'll have to test. I will add a negative weighting towards grains but keep the positive one towards food. I wonder what the starts will look like...

And another, unrelated question: Have you put in their diplo music? I've tried to get new music for my mod, but cannot get it to load correctly.Yes I have. What error do you get? I remember getting an error on startup. It seemed to have been triggered by comments line I added in the XML. If this is not that type of error, maybe you haven't modified all the files? You have to modify AudioDefines.xml and Audio2DScripts.xml. If it's nothing like that, feel free to PM me with your XML, so I could take a look at it without interfering with this thread ;)

Cattle Rider will do fine to complement Balseraph Cowtapult :goodjob:

potato vodka? 0_o
A traditional one. You can make one from rye, too. Other kinds are just barbaric substitues. But enough on that, I prefere wine anyway.

Cattle Rider
replaces Horseman
5:strength:
2:move: [Horseman has 3:move:]
10% Withdrawal [Horseman has 25%]
no flanking strike [Horseman has 100 against catapults and cannons]
no first strike [Horseman has 1]
can receive defensive bonus [Horseman can't]
0% city attack [Horseman has -20%]
ignores terrain cost [May not be wise...]
requires Cow
can acquire the Cart promotion: reduces :strength: but gives +2 Cargo and the ability to transport food to other cities

Great idea. Might I suggest a strength or some kind of charge bonus? Horses can be faster but cows - especially aurochs and african buffalos - are much stronger (and smarter ;) )

2) I'm setting up the flavour values for the Ngomele. Numbers are weight. For now, I have:
- Riverside: 4
- Food: 3
- Plains: 2
- Cows: 2
- Standing Stones: 1
I would change riverside to 2 and plains to 4. I did not know you want Ngomele to use so much food, nor I am sure they should. Vegetables can be used to feed cattle, so no need to decrease the yields (or just a little)[/QUOTE]

Cattle Rider will do fine to complement Balseraph Cowtapult :goodjob:

Now a siege engine that should definetly be in. But I better stop before I change trojan horse to rabbit and make Orbis into Monty Python modmod...

Ooooooh I forgot about the Aurochs..... Those things were vicious. I say base it on that. :lol: I can only imagine a bunch of Gnolls on Aurochs charging at me...... :eek:


And I did something like that siege engine, although it's only a promotion. Balseraphs and a few others can take it from the Master Siegesmith. :lol: Adds unhealth to any city it's near, passes the Diseased promo, so on.

A traditional one. You can make one from rye, too. Other kinds are just barbaric substitues. But enough on that, I prefere wine anyway.And here comes Ahwaric, lead designer of Orbis, derailing a serious thread by talking about vodka... :p


Great idea. Might I suggest a strength or some kind of charge bonus? Horses can be faster but cows - especially aurochs and african buffalos - are much stronger (and smarter ;) )Hmm... Buffalos! I like Aurochs too but buffalos seems to fit a bit more to the african feel I have with the Ngomele :)


I would change riverside to 2 and plains to 4. I did not know you want Ngomele to use so much food, nor I am sure they should. Vegetables can be used to feed cattle, so no need to decrease the yields (or just a little)Well, I wanted them to require more food because they're carnivorous, thus requiring to eat way more. Or so I think. For now, I'll let it like that. After some tests, I'll see if it needs to be changed :) I'll consider the change for the flavour weights though. Why do you think I should make riverside 2 and plains 4?

@Hamster: I think I'll go for buffalos for the reason above. Not sure yet though :)

All this makes me think about siege engines. I don't know what they should be for the Ngomele. For now, they're just the base ones, bar cannons.

Hamster? :lol: Anyways, I has new Profil3 p1cture, wanna take a look? I believe it really does complement my avatar.

Before this degenarates into an off topic discussion about hamsters and spams, you are planning on adding a couple of supa overpowered spells and rituals, units, or whatever to this modmodmod,correct?

Edit: Holy, Ineed to check out the OP more often :(

Hamster? :lol:What, don't you know? Valkrionn's a hamster. In fact, it's even a erebusian word meaning hamster!

Anyways, I has new Profil3 p1cture, wanna take a look? I believe it really does complement my avatar.It's really nice :)

Before this degenarates into an off topic discussion about hamsters and spams, you are planning on adding a couple of supa overpowered spells and rituals, units, or whatever to this modmodmod,correct?

Edit: Holy, Ineed to check out the OP more often :(Haha, don't get mad at you for so little. I'm indeed planning on adding spells (Shur spells, tied to nature, and Songs), units (the Shur, able to cast... Shur spells!, the Gha (or Kha, don't know yet!), able to use Songs, the Cattle Rider!, the Druidess which has secret abilities for now), one late game ritual (more nature mana for boosting units in order to fight the late units and to rampage!), two heroes (Banung, a blind prophetess, and her friend Nga, a fearless and charismatic warrior) and some unique mechanics :)

I think I'll have to update the OP in order to describe the civ fully since I know mostly what will be in and what won't be. There's things I want to keep hidden for now, though...

And here comes Ahwaric, lead designer of Orbis, derailing a serious thread by talking about vodka... :p


Hmm... Buffalos! I like Aurochs too but buffalos seems to fit a bit more to the african feel I have with the Ngomele :)

I found one for Doviello+ haha. Or rather, Vehem found it for me. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242739 Just have to change the art slightly.


Well, I wanted them to require more food because they're carnivorous, thus requiring to eat way more. Or so I think. For now, I'll let it like that. After some tests, I'll see if it needs to be changed :) I'll consider the change for the flavour weights though. Why do you think I should make riverside 2 and plains 4?

Actually, carnivores have to eat less. Meat has more energy density than vegetation. They expend more energy hunting, but a pack of wolves can generally get by on a hunt or so a week. Herbivores can just eat whenever they want. :lol:

Hamster? :lol: Anyways, I has new Profil3 p1cture, wanna take a look? I believe it really does complement my avatar.

Is......... Is that Pedobear as the Lion? :eek:

And there's actually a hamster civilization. :lol:

What, don't you know? Valkrionn's a hamster. In fact, it's even a erebusian word meaning hamster!

It's really nice :)

Haha, don't get mad at you for so little. I'm indeed planning on adding spells (Shur spells, tied to nature, and Songs), units (the Shur, able to cast... Shur spells!, the Gha (or Kha, don't know yet!), able to use Songs, the Cattle Rider!, the Druidess which has secret abilities for now), one late game ritual (more nature mana for boosting units in order to fight the late units and to rampage!), two heroes (Banung, a blind prophetess, and her friend Nga, a fearless and charismatic warrior) and some unique mechanics :)

I think I'll have to update the OP in order to describe the civ fully since I know mostly what will be in and what won't be. There's things I want to keep hidden for now, though...

I'd love to be able to read about it. :lol: Would like to play it even more, of course.... :p

And here comes Ahwaric, lead designer of Orbis, derailing a serious thread by talking about vodka... :p
Just wanted to clarify. As you may be aware, there was a serious talk in EU council recently regarding the definition of vodka. Our side (Nordic and Baltic countries) lost and now vodka name can be placed on anything :yuck: But as I have said, enough on that...

Hmm... Buffalos! I like Aurochs too but buffalos seems to fit a bit more to the african feel I have with the Ngomele :)

I found one for Doviello+ haha. Or rather, Vehem found it for me. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242739 Just have to change the art slightly.
Unfortunatelly, the buffalos are american buffalos (=bisons), not african ones. Still, better than a horse with horns attached...
And thanks, I am going to do some changes and add bear riders to Doviello :)

Well, I wanted them to require more food because they're carnivorous, thus requiring to eat way more. Or so I think.
Actually, carnivores have to eat less.
Valkrionn is right. Carnivores eat much less and can sleep all day. Herbivores are eating constantly ;)
But the area to support a carnivore has to be much bigger - lots of energy is lost on every step of food chain. That is why vegetarians are better for the planet ;)
So, you can suppoirt either decision - to make them consume more or not.
For now, I'll let it like that. After some tests, I'll see if it needs to be changed :) I'll consider the change for the flavour weights though. Why do you think I should make riverside 2 and plains 4?
Current ones will make Ngomele look for river first and plains second. So river in grassland is better than plains without. I think it should be opposite. But I think you might know flavour mod better and if it is counted for every plains tile, your values might be better
All this makes me think about siege engines. I don't know what they should be for the Ngomele. For now, they're just the base ones, bar cannons.
Battering rams. And cowtapult ;) But seriously, cannons (but gnoll musketmen seem flavourful) do not seem to fit, but catapults are fine imho.
Hamster? :lol: Anyways, I has new Profil3 p1cture, wanna take a look? I believe it really does complement my avatar.
It does. But the colours hurt the eyes

I think I'll have to update the OP in order to describe the civ fully since I know mostly what will be in and what won't be. There's things I want to keep hidden for now, though...
Trust me, it will change a lot after initial release. Do not try to pack all at once - balance feedback and community ideas change all new civs. I know how it affected Mechanos - and how they still change, including new flavour from pedia entries. They got their own life, I can't contol them any more...

What does the EU council have to do with the fTe of vodkas?

What's an Peddobear?

I found one for Doviello+ haha. Or rather, Vehem found it for me. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242739 Just have to change the art slightly.Unfortunatelly, the buffalos are american buffalos (=bisons), not african ones. Still, better than a horse with horns attached...
And thanks, I am going to do some changes and add bear riders to Doviello :)I was going to use this model but I noticed it was already used by the Doviello... I think I'm going to ask help in the Unit Request thread :)

Actually, carnivores have to eat less. Meat has more energy density than vegetation. They expend more energy hunting, but a pack of wolves can generally get by on a hunt or so a week. Herbivores can just eat whenever they want. :lol:Valkrionn is right. Carnivores eat much less and can sleep all day. Herbivores are eating constantly ;)
But the area to support a carnivore has to be much bigger - lots of energy is lost on every step of food chain. That is why vegetarians are better for the planet ;)
So, you can suppoirt either decision - to make them consume more or not.Hm. A gameplay decision, again. Hm hm hm... Need to think moar.

I'd love to be able to read about it. :lol: Would like to play it even more, of course.... :pWait more! :p

Just wanted to clarify. As you may be aware, there was a serious talk in EU council recently regarding the definition of vodka. Out side (Nordic and Baltic countries) lost and now vodka name can be placed on anything :yuck: But as I have said, enough on that...No, not aware. What you mean by "anything"? Anything that is not truly vodka but some ersatz?

Current ones will make Ngomele look for river first and plains second. So river in grassland is better than plains without. I think it should be opposite. But I think you might know flavour mod better and if it is counted for every plains tile, your values might be betterHm... So you think that it would be more likely to search for rivers even if not on plains? Well, that could actually be the case. I will do some more tests :)

Battering rams. And cowtapult ;) But seriously, cannons (but gnoll musketmen seem flavourful) do not seem to fit, but catapults are fine imho. Yeah, I was thinking that too. I think a gnoll with a musket could be fun :D

Trust me, it will change a lot after initial release. Do not try to pack all at once - balance feedback and community ideas change all new civs. I know how it affected Mechanos - and how they still change, including new flavour from pedia entries. They got their own life, I can't contol them any more...Well, you're right. I expect much from feedback. But what I meant is that I know, for now, what I want to add, so I can write a good description. Not written in stone however, as I do hope that the feedback will provide me ideas and all :)

played a bit with the cattles of the charlemagne supply train (and also the bison rider), so now you can have a gnoll bison rider or a gnoll cattle rider. All unit use knight animation. No unit checked in game so far

cattle rider: uses SupplyOx_2_128.dds as texture if the cattle (SupplyOx_1_128.dds is a brown texture - both are form the supply train), not a perfect bone adjustment (still looks a bit too much like a horse), but it should work

bison rider: is the doviello bison rider, only a bit cleaned (from 331 kb to 140 kb nif size, also reduced the bison texture to 256*256), the bisonamerican_adult_m.dds is used (bisonamerican_adult_m2.dds is a 128*128 resize) . btw the weapon is a bit poly heavy (almost as much as the rider itself)

gnoll bison rider: uses the same cleaned nif from above with a gnoll with the warrior weapon as rider, uses bisonamerican_adult_m2.dds as standard texture

hope i didn´t cleaned the nifs to much, so they still work in game, btw it could be good to 'create' an custom knight animation, removing [or exchanging] the fidget animation, looks a bit wrong with the models in nifskope

also because of only limited time, i expect problems (would be surprised if all works fine) :)

What does the EU council have to do with the fTe of vodkas?

What's an Peddobear?
No, not aware. What you mean by "anything"? Anything that is not truly vodka but some ersatz?
Well, EU regulates a lot of things. In short, there was a campaign to reserve the name vodka to spirits made according to traditional recepture from grains (rye) and potatoes only, and not from sugar cane, apples, bananas, grapes or any other sugar source. But it failed and now everything that contains 40% of alcohol can be branded vodka. It is like calling wine something made of fermented tomatoes ;)
Here I stop, no more off topic on that specific topic. And no idea on Peddobear

played a bit with the cattles of the charlemagne supply train (and also the bison rider), so now you can have a gnoll bison rider or a gnoll cattle rider. All unit use knight animation. No unit checked in game so far
I am all for the cattle one. Have yet to see it in game, but in nifskope it looks good and is unique. The cattle looks more african than the north american bison.
I think that the gnoll model's face resembles jackal more than a hyena. But I suppose it is ok anyway.
There are units in Orbis that need makeup more ;)

What does the EU council have to do with the fTe of vodkas?

What's an Peddobear?

Pedobear is a 4 chan thing.... Basicaly, a pedophiliac bear. No idea where he originated, but he's in your pic. :lol: Or at least, a very close cousin. :lol:

First, thank you The_Coyote :goodjob:

I tried the model in-game and it seemed to work nicely. I did set it a bit too big (screens 2 & 3) so I resized the scale (screen 1). I wonder if I keep 2 units displayed as the Horseman or if 1 is enough.

Holy cow(?)! Those are actually awesome :p

That.... Is just epic. :lol:

I'm creating this to-do list for graphics in order to keep track of what is needed. I'll link it to the first post when I'll rewrite it.

Graphics To-Do List

A. Specific features

Specific Units Banung the Blind: Hero; No eyes, spellcaster; 2D art in the game; Nga Eye-Eater: Hero; Great warrior, sword and shield; 2D art in the game; Shur, Heishur, Heheishur: spellcaster line; glowing green eyes, bottom covered with a skirt, topless; Kha: band of singers and dancers; 4 models; Gnoll Worker: just a Gnoll Worker! CowRider Cart: A special artstyle used when the CowRider has the Cart promotion; would need a cart seemingly tracted by the cow; Specific Buildings -

B. Unit ArtStyles

I would like to have unique artstyle for basic units like Warrior, Scout and all. The range is huge, so posting all guidelines will be long. For now, there is the Warrior (thanks to The_Coyote) as a base model for all other gnolls. A Axeman gnoll could simply be done by exchanging the Warrior mace with an axe. However, a little clothes wouldn't be bad. I'll post more informations, guidelines and ideas later.

C. City ArtStyle

I was thinking of using the Zulu artstyle (little huts) but I'm not sure it's usable from FfH. I'll try. Anyway, I wonder how hard it is to do. I have few ideas of the look their cities would have, so no guidelines.

D. Buttons

Buttons are one thing I'm able to do all by myself, so I won't need help here. However, when the civ will be released, if you have suggestions to replace some buttons, I'll gladly hear them. Mostly, my buttons come from Guild Wars or World of Warcraft.

Got a new ETA?