THIS IS A UPCOMING POLL ALERT - FOR DISCUSSION ON THE ISSUE PLEASE USE THE APPROPRIATE THREAD

Poll:
Shall we give approval for Cavalieros, to trade Alphabet to SANCTA for Metal Casting?
1. Yes
2. No

Deadline
This Poll Will be Posted in 48 hours, IF the issue has not been resolved through diplomacy and team discussion.

Posts on this thread should be limited to:
1. Ideas for the Wording of the Poll
2. Ideas for the Choices on the Poll
3. Ideas for how long the poll should stay open
4. Ideas for the Date the poll should be posted
5. Opposition to polling the issue (simple yes or no with reasons if necessary)
6. Approval of polling the issue (simple yes or no with reasons if necessary)
7. :king:'s (or turnplayer's) warning that poll must be posted immediately

FOR ALL OTHER ISSUES, USE THE APPROPRIATE THREAD Please note that Approval or Opposition to the poll will not necessarily affect whether the poll is posted.

Appropriate Thread for Discussion:

Cavalieros Embassy and Intelligence (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306392)

If the poll is due and I am unavailable to post it :king: will decide to post (or not post the poll).

There is a great deal of discussion and debate over how to handle trade with SANCTA, so a poll MAY be needed.

Note: If we reach an agreement with another team that binds us to a particular course of action, there will NOT be a poll on this issue.

No, do not give the approval, the deal we got could mean they are not intending to gift metal casting! I am for a trade, not a delayed gifting.

I say 'yay'

Can I suggest we need at least one person to say 'nay' before we actually do a poll??

We need two people to say no, to do a poll.

I think Kaleb means each option should have at least one person supporting it before we have a poll. If everyone agrees on one option there's really no point in polling, is there?

We need two people to say no, to do a poll. This is incorrect, we need two people to call for a poll to do one, their stance on the issue does not matter. No one would call for a poll anyway unless they felt there was opposition to what they wanted. If there was zero opposition, what would be the point of asking for a poll?

Damnrunner (and others) have already said no, BTW so unless they reverse we will poll.

Hopefully everyone is ok with us saying yes before a poll becomes necessary, but we need to resolve this either way.

Team Cav have a counter proposal from SANCTA that would include a rider to the alphabet for metal casting deal where Team Cav would have to agree not to trade metal casting away until turn 100.

I oppose this trade with team Sancta for two reasons: (1) we don’t want Sancta to have alpha and (2) we don’t need MC right away.

(1)
I really like our proposed trade with Saturn as it keeps them dependent on us to trade technology since they don’t have alphabet. Likewise forcing Sancta to tech alpha on their own will slow them down and force Sancta to either research alpha on their own (which they wont be able to trade) or to research another tech (which they can’t trade since they don’t have alpha).

I think Sancta’s optimum strategy would be to beeline to construction and attack us with elephants and catapults. They can do this without alpha but having it would let them trade tech with Saturn to pick up other techs (such as archery and horseback riding).


(2)
We do want MC but we do not need it right away. It has already been discussed that we will not be building a forge any time too soon.

The other option brought up is that we need MC to protect against naval attacks.

I think there is a very small chance of sancta sailing our way to attack us. And if they did, we would not have much warning to build either 2 galleys or a trireme. Better scouting is more important on this issue than having a navy. At worst they could pillage 1 seafood resource – while bad this would not be the end of the world. If we had MC right now would anyone support building a trireme? I think not. The idea mentioned is to have MC and if needed rush a trireme for defense. But if our only danger is the loss of one seafood resource – would we really be willing to whip our capitol in order to defend the resource? I think we would let it be pillaged.

The same logic is true for barbarian ships.

I oppose the trade with Sancta, and we should give the MC task to MS instead, for reasons explained in the team cav thread.

I think it is a no go, as they do not have anything to trade right away, and that they look for Saturn. This is also why I advocated the denial trades with Saturn, to kill off that with Sancta. This also means we should make Mad Scientists research Metal Casting, to keep them from working with Sancta, and we allow MS to trade Metal Casting to Saturn for something that denies Sancta that trade as well. So we should make MS research Metal Casting, right now.

Who doesn't have anything to trade right away? :confused: Provo, I've spent some time trying to show Niklas how some on our team feel his team has dictated to us - now you want us to make MS do something? :nono: And I thought you wanted metal casting right away - so much so that you wanted us to research it?

(1)I really like our proposed trade with Saturn as it keeps them dependent on us to trade technology since they don’t have alphabet. Likewise forcing Sancta to tech alpha on their own will slow them down and force Sancta to either research alpha on their own (which they wont be able to trade) or to research another tech (which they can’t trade since they don’t have alpha).

With three of us researching and sharing techs do we really need to slow down SANCTA that much? As long as they can't beat us to the Great Library I don't see the problem giving them alphabet.

I do not like Sancta to get Alpha as a gift, its not a trade, its a gift. And we are not even guaranteed they will give anything back later.
Please do not underestimate me, Donsig, you know better than that, I see this game from more than one dimension. We need metal casting, but we also need to isolate Sancta further, and gifting is a no go.

I do not like Sancta to get Alpha as a gift, its not a trade, its a gift. And we are not even guaranteed they will give anything back later.
Please do not underestimate me, Donsig, you know better than that, I see this game from more than one dimension. We need metal casting, but we also need to isolate Sancta further, and gifting is a no go.

How is it a gift if we (Kaz/Cav/MS) get metal casting? Just because we wait for it? We're already three on one against SANCTA with the very good prospect of making that four to one, or at the least sticking SANCTA with the worst partner.

And I know so well how who see more than the rest of us do Provo.

Well, you speak for yourself, Donsig, as I do. People here got different views on the matter, and I think Sancta should not be given this trade.

I have a question:

Will saying "nay" impact our relationship with Cav?

What does everyone think?


Because, with the rider attached, I don't know if it's a good idea at the present...
Damnrunner brought up a lot of good points. But I just want to emphasize the point that right now, we are the nexus of world diplomacy and trading. We want Saturn to trade through us, and giving Alpha to Sanc might ruin our diplo with Saturn.

Also, do we want Cav to expand their industrial base ahead of us for 20 turns? Are their cities situated to allow for efficient forge building? I think their industry is better than ours so many it's worth it for them to build forges?

Of course, point wise, we are getting a good deal... but is it better to wait for a while, until we can actually use MC, and try to broker a deal perhaps involving Calendar or COL or Currency for MC? It would also be better if we can be the ones doing the trading rather than Cav.


My only sticking point is that we don't want to annoy Cav by being obstructionist. Our relationship is pretty fragile right now and we need to be careful. But without this point, I'd vote "nay".



EDIT:
Although we are getting a good deal on points, I'd also be afraid of a scenario where Sanc makes contact with Saturn and brokers MC to them as well... Even if they traded MC for a really small tech, it ends up as a negative for our alliance. What if they broker MC for Archery + HBR in 10-15 turns? This would cost the alliance many hundreds of beakers and mess up our diplo. And of course... MS+US would be the LAST people to end up with MC due to the rider.

I agree with Mikotian on his analysis.

Also, do we want Cav to expand their industrial base ahead of us for 20 turns? Are their cities situated to allow for efficient forge building? I think their industry is better than ours so many it's worth it for them to build forges?

Niklas mentioned that they are not in a position to build forges soon. Kaleb even quoted that part of the chat log so I doubt we'd be giving Team Cav a great edge by letting them have metal casting 20 turns before us. You know, we could try to make the deal with SANCTA and let Team Cav wait for metal casting till turn 100. :hmm:

Although we are getting a good deal on points, I'd also be afraid of a scenario where Sanc makes contact with Saturn and brokers MC to them as well... Even if they traded MC for a really small tech, it ends up as a negative for our alliance. What if they broker MC for Archery + HBR in 10-15 turns? This would cost the alliance many hundreds of beakers and mess up our diplo. And of course... MS+US would be the LAST people to end up with MC due to the rider.

We could preempt this by offering metal casting to Saturn on turn 100 ourselves (in return for them researching something for us now - maybe we also though in a gift tech up front to sweeten the deal).

I do not trust Sancta will deliver on their deal. If it was a trade, it would be different. There is little trust, so no need to go along there.

We could preempt this by offering metal casting to Saturn on turn 100 ourselves (in return for them researching something for us now - maybe we also though in a gift tech up front to sweeten the deal).

As they say... A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Our relationship with Saturn is not established yet. We also don't know how many turns Sanc has before they find Saturn. What if they find Saturn in 4 turns or something? If this happens, Sanc decidedly has a leg up on us in trading. They can undercut us on both beakers and time...


Sanc also said that they are looking for a friend in Saturn... We would help them in this goal by letting them have Alpha.

Furthermore, after making this deal, Sanc has a very strong incentive to give MC away for cheap. They know that it will be brokered at turn 100. So, there is nothing to lose by giving it away for cheap ahead of turn 100. We do not want to be in a position of "bidding against" Sanc when they are doing this. The only one that wins out of this is Saturn.


From reading the chat log, it doesn't seem Cav will be offended if we turn down this trade. And I buy the argument that they are not ready to build forges.


Bottom line:
1) We don't need MC right away
2) We don't want to compromise our leverage over Saturn
3) With both Saturn and Sancta without Alpha, we are in a much better position to control world diplomacy

I think we should reconsider bringing Saturn into the alliance against SANCTA.

Also, What is the difference between a tech trade for MC where Cavalieros dont actually get MC until turn 100 and an agreement not to give anyone MC untill turn 100?

The only difference from OUR perspective, is that WE can't get it until turn 100.

Honestly, how many turns would it take SANCTA to tech Alpha at this point? Three? Five Maybe? I think we are kidding ourselves trying to keep Alpha from them. We are better off bringing Saturn into the alliance formally if we truly want to isolate SANCTA.

Consider this... what tangible benefit have we gotten from sending out our wb if we dont ally with Saturn? We met SANCTA yes but we have not traded with them... we met MS yes, but AFTER Cavalieros had already introduced them to us.

I say No as well.

2 reasons.

1. I am against giving Sancta Alpha..The reason of the alliance is to get us ahead..not everyone in the game.

2. Even if we agreed to a deal, we would have to receive it same turn as well not 20 turns later..or if Cavaleiros want we take it and give it to them 20 turns later

Also, What is the difference between a tech trade for MC where Cavalieros dont actually get MC until turn 100 and an agreement not to give anyone MC untill turn 100?

Not sure what you're asking here, nor do I understand Provo's objections. SANCTA has offered to trade alphabet to Team Cav for metal casting now as long as Team Cav agrees not to trade metal casting to anyone else until turn 100. Team Cav also would have to agree not to build the Colossus. My suggestion was we try to make that deal with SANCTA so we'd get metal casting now. We would have to agree not to trade it away until turn 100 and would also have to agree not to build the colossus. I've no idea if SANCTA would make that deal with us though. :dunno:

I think we should wait for a little while. Trade something else for MC, and immediately broker it to Saturn.

If Sanc researches Alpha in the mean time, let them. That's 5 turns that they are not researching construction or something more dangerous.

I think we should wait for a little while. Trade something else for MC, and immediately broker it to Saturn.

If we trade for MC SANCTA will insist on the same terms they are asking of Team Cav (no trading MC away until turn 100 and a promise not to build colossus). I do not think it would be good to us to break any deals we enter into, even with SANCTA.

Lets let Cavalieros trade for MC... They can just immediately betray SANCTA and give it to us... What is the harm in that? SANCTA already knows that we are enemies.

Lets let Cavalieros trade for MC... They can just immediately betray SANCTA and give it to us... What is the harm in that? SANCTA already knows that we are enemies.

Sommerswerd, has it ever occurred to you that Team Cav might not want to betray the deal? I'm fairly confident that Team Cav would honor any deal they signed with SANTA.

Unless they tell us they will betray the deal I think we assume that they will not. That said I am ok with getting MC at turn 100.

My issue is doing the trade at all - not when we get MC.

what I meant was waiting more like 20 turns, and make a trade based on some other tech than Alpha. Maybe COL, Currency, Calendar, etc. When we get MC, we immediately sell it to Saturn, if we can.

If Sanc sells MC to Saturn in the mean time, we should then try to buy it from Saturn instead of Sanc.

OK so if this poll is even necessary, it seems like we should be asking if we are willing to let SANCTA have Alpha (at all) for Metal Casting, instead of whether we are willing to let Cavalieros give Alpha to them.

It seems like we are still divided on this... Are we?

Yes, I think we are still divided - but this trade does not seem to be a high priority for SANCTA anyway. Let's focus our attention on suggesting an alternative trade to SANCTA so we get metal casting sooner.

Have we sent a proposal to SANCTA yet? If not I would say we should probably poll the issue since there seems to be alot of reluctance to offer SANCTA Alpha, which is what they obviously want for Metal Casting.

We did send a proposal to SANCTA and are waiting to hear back from them. Let's wait and see what they say.