I was thinking of a hive-mind like civilization. The main concept is that all units built get a bonus based on the amount of total EXP earned (as in, for great generals and such), but this could extend other areas as well. The idea, in concept, is that the whole civilization levels up and improves rather than individual things. The concept seems appealing, but I cannot think of any mechanics other than the military aspect of it.

On a side note, this makes me wonder if surviving attacks from summoned creatures awards EXP towards the great general counter.

this concept is already in parts integrated with barnaxus but nonetheless a nice idea.

this concept is already in parts integrated with barnaxus but nonetheless a nice idea.

My understanding of Barnaxus is that if he dies, the bonus is lost, so once he hits a certain level... And the individual golems don't earn exp for him. Anyway, I was also thinking that this civilization could earn other bonuses. Like under certain conditions all of their cities might get a civ-wide bonus to research, or culture, or wealth, and this bonus would be fluid (anywhere from +1% to +100%). Overall a flexible civilization that can develop the strengths they need to. Like maybe for every 1000 base hammers produced they get a 1% bonus to all hammers produced (note this is base, does not count bonuses from forges and whatnot).

I really like the concept, I think the civ could be worked out to be really unique and fun.

One idea could be a queen like unit that if killed, has a negative impact on the rest of the units somehow.

I really like the concept, I think the civ could be worked out to be really unique and fun.

One idea could be a queen like unit that if killed, has a negative impact on the rest of the units somehow.

Maybe gives promotion "Confused" which makes units have a certain percentage to go a form of 'enraged' promotion except that it would give -1 attack and defense instead of +1? Also it would be cool if they can assimilate members of other civs into their own

:scan::scan::borg::borg::run::assimilate:

Maybe gives promotion "Confused" which makes units have a certain percentage to go a form of 'enraged' promotion except that it would give -1 attack and defense instead of +1? Also it would be cool if they can assimilate members of other civs into their own

The real design goal is to create a kind of micromanage-less civilization that has plenty of potential to build up. Like, say, repeatable projects that boost the productivity of all cities rather than individual buildings.

The real design goal is to create a kind of micromanage-less civilization that has plenty of potential to build up. Like, say, repeatable projects that boost the productivity of all cities rather than individual buildings.

interesting. I think it would be cool if the civ layout was like a hive as well. Meaning... cities can only be built within 2 tiles of each other. And only having a city radius of one. That would make a real tight close in civ that could still get good production, commerce, and food with the repeatable projects.

the projects must be repetable but their cost increasing every time its build otherwise it would breake the game after a few times....

the projects must be repetable but their cost increasing every time its build otherwise it would breake the game after a few times....

Plus if it only works for existing cities... the oldest ones get the most benefit. That way you don't build a city and its maxed out from the start.

the projects must be repetable but their cost increasing every time its build otherwise it would breake the game after a few times....

Entirely possible. I'm not sure about only existing cities getting the benefit, though. That's what can make them scary, is that they plop down a new city and have all of the benefits of the rest of their civ except the population.

so what kind of units are you thinking about for this civ? what Kind of abilities, bonuses ect?

The civ would use enchantment, mind, and body mana. The civ would be organized, possibly industrious, possibly adaptive, but would suffer a -75% GPP hit. Individuality does exist, but much of it is used for the greater whole. Culture is still normal because again, individuality exists, they can be swayed and can sway others. Alignment is neutral.

For unique units... I'm not too sure yet. Could be a warrior replacement which can be used to rush projects (much like the dwarven priests). They might even get a telepathic unit, which gets a bonus based on the enemy's level (say +10% strength bonus per enemy level). That is, the smarter their enemy is, the better tactics and counter tactics it uses itself. The best way to combat it might be to rush it in a mindless charge, except that it can still employ tactics itself. I figure this would be a national unit. Unique units aren't too important because all units from this civ get a strength boost based on how much total XP earned, kinda like how great generals work, but instead all units built benefit. This replaces the need for training yards, shipyards, etc.

Unique buildings include towering obelisks which are manned by powerful mind mages which can direct people to specific purposes. Some might be geared towards making people happy, others towards reading the thoughts of traders and catering to their needs (controlling their thoughts wouldn't bring them back), and similar ones. All other buildings are replaced by projects, which benefit the civilization as a whole when built.

The core theme of the civilization is perfection of the mind and of the body and society. When people reach a certain age, they are infused with a "package" of collected thoughts and experiences and knowledge, so they can learn from other past experiences. The "doctors" also rely a lot on body mana, so people tend to be at the peak of their health for a good long while. Most unhealthiness comes not from physical defect, but city sprawl/environment. The projects built by this civilization are designed to improve this package so people can use the most well known tactics available.

Religion and this civ are a bit at odds. The dieties scoff at the concept of pefection, as the goal is to make the people almost as dieties themselves. However, the individuals may still worship and the leaders may even lead them onward in matters of faith, even if the leaders themselves do not subscribe to the beliefs.

what would these guys look like? regular humans, or something bee like?

They're definitely human. I think I focused too much on the hive-aspect. They're not insectiod. Merely efficient.

ok :) looking forword to it :)

I do need a name for this civilization, however. And art for the leaderhead would probably be helpful, too. No idea on the heroes yet...

The core theme of the civilization is perfection of the mind and of the body and society. When people reach a certain age, they are infused with a "package" of collected thoughts and experiences and knowledge, so they can learn from other past experiences. The "doctors" also rely a lot on body mana, so people tend to be at the peak of their health for a good long while. Most unhealthiness comes not from physical defect, but city sprawl/environment. The projects built by this civilization are designed to improve this package so people can use the most well known tactics available.

Religion and this civ are a bit at odds. The dieties scoff at the concept of pefection, as the goal is to make the people almost as dieties themselves. However, the individuals may still worship and the leaders may even lead them onward in matters of faith, even if the leaders themselves do not subscribe to the beliefs.


Seems like you have several different ideas floating around that are kind of contradictory. In Japan (a collectivist culture) they have a saying, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down." If you are really trying to make a civ that is like "one mind" I do not see the place for individualism at all. especially if you are giving this civ many abilities to plop down a city and have it up and going right away, and units with the same xp as other units. Just stopping GPP doesn't seem enough to balance something that has the potential to become really strong really fast. It seems like it would be a closed civ that it shouldnt spread culture at all. I liked the Hive mentality idea much more than a complex system of people trying to reach perfection.

Keep in mind that culture is a variety of things, including a way of life. The very structured society is that. Being influenced by another civ might disrupt that and encourage people to break free. Otherwise, people might see how "happy" the other civ is and convert.

Also, indviduality does exist in the colletive society of Japan: Each person is still allowed to think and act indepedently, even if they're discouraged from standing out. Much would be the same in this civ. Though an alternate leader might exist in which most everyone is a mindless drone and everything is done similarly, but with more direction.

Hmm... The description you gave reminds me of the Imperial Order in the Sword of Truth novels... On that note, I say call the leader Jagang. :lol:

Keep in mind that culture is a variety of things, including a way of life. The very structured society is that. Being influenced by another civ might disrupt that and encourage people to break free. Otherwise, people might see how "happy" the other civ is and convert.

Also, indviduality does exist in the colletive society of Japan: Each person is still allowed to think and act indepedently, even if they're discouraged from standing out. Much would be the same in this civ. Though an alternate leader might exist in which most everyone is a mindless drone and everything is done similarly, but with more direction.

Of course individuality still exists... but as the saying goes, the tendency is to stamp it out. I guess its just becoming harder to find real distinctions between what you are proposing and what is already there in the game. You have a few mechanics of the game that are unique, but as far as some of the philosophy used to create this civ could be said of some of the other civs or religions. OO already has a mindless component to it. A hive is not mindless... it is a collective mind (a group 'one mind'). I think that is why pushing for an extreme position or drastic changes makes more variety for a new civ. Even if they don't look like ants or bees, if you make them think like them it will make this civ more unique instead of being a civ based on OO mentality IMHO.

Of course individuality still exists... but as the saying goes, the tendency is to stamp it out. I guess its just becoming harder to find real distinctions between what you are proposing and what is already there in the game. You have a few mechanics of the game that are unique, but as far as some of the philosophy used to create this civ could be said of some of the other civs or religions. OO already has a mindless component to it. A hive is not mindless... it is a collective mind (a group 'one mind'). I think that is why pushing for an extreme position or drastic changes makes more variety for a new civ. Even if they don't look like ants or bees, if you make them think like them it will make this civ more unique instead of being a civ based on OO mentality IMHO.

I'm actually more focused on the mechanics: The idea of a civilization that improves rather than improving the individual cities/units. The lore isn't quite as important to me, But using mind mana one could make telepathy and mind control a big part of the civilization.

The perfection thing sounds a bit like the Dural. Perhaps you could adept them for Orbis.

I like the idea. However, I think that if make a hive-like civ, make it 100% hive like. If they share mind, there's no individual personality, so I'd say no GP at all. I like the idea of sharing experience, but it needs some tweeking (I mean, it's just bad if after one or two fights with barbarians you have all units on lvl 2, it's just bad). And I like the idea of 'strenght in numbers', I mean - projects that make all the civ stronger.

How about that: no culture whatsoever (tho I'd guess they can't convert sides based on culture, I'd imagine they just don't give a damn about culture), same as great people. I'd actually imagine them as partially insectoid, possibly swamp or desert dwellers. Now, for the basic concept -their basic city borders range is 2, they can work only tiles in range of 1. They can only build cities within their borders or max 1 tile away from the border, but every city built in this 'network' makes all the network stronger in some way (tbh I can imagine, that +1% hammers/food/research per city could make a difference after a short while). Perchaps a unit that could claim one tile of territory to anable colonising other continents (worker?). Units could work in a similar manner, every unit within or in short distance of borders makes every other unit affected by a small percentage (+1% stength?). I'd imagine they'd have cheaper settlers and workers, too. Drawback - no culture, no great people, and one interesting fact - the fall of their capital city equals death of the whole civ, that would just automatically become barbarians, or just die, whichever. I'd guess that this could make the civ overpowered/underpowered, but honestly saying, I'm not a pro Civ IV player, and I don't know a thing about balance in this game. So I hope there are people that can rebalance this ^^"

What I'd hope such a civ to be, a strongly territorial civilisation, very reslient to anything that is outside of their hive, probably defenders and agnostic, very strongly based around numbers - with basically weak units and cities, but that can support each other and eventually become very strong. And yes, I'd think of them being a bit similar to zerg from Starcraft.

I was very much considering something along the lines of after so many combats all units start off at level 2 (though this should not apply against barbarian units, much in the same way barbarian units cannot grant great generals). And after more combats all units start off at level 3. Etc. There does seem to be a certain demand for the extreme here (the real mindless drones), so perhaps I can design the civilization around this to accomodate.

The only problem though is if the civilization is too extreme, a lot of mechanics are going to be thrown out the window. I mean, I'm already discarding the thought of the typical set of buildings, but now discarding culture, trade, and great people also? The civilization might end up being too radical.

Mechanics wise, making the civilization build projects that improve the civ as a whole is fairly easy to code. All of the other changes will take some serious consideration of their effects. Robbing a creative civilization of their ability to culture bomb might not be a good idea, for example.

actually we could have great people however all they do is buff the respective specialist, or ad a building that increase its stat by 5% cumulative? so 5 great scientists would boost science of civ by 25%

I think that it would depend on how you want the civ to be played, with Mornar's idea they would practically have to be builders, but with Mylon's idea their play style would favor the conqueror, and from everything so far they seem to be a builder type nation
Either way would individual exp be allowed, I think it wouldn't be.

Maybe, rather than insectoid, go for Platonic?

i think the leader should be a council rather than a single being.

something like this perhaps
http://nalro.deviantart.com/art/Council-110897430

@Larklight: what do you mean by Platonic

@Psychic Llamas: If the civ is a hive mind type thing then why would there be any need for a council, though being several minds linked could work, but why do you think it should be a council?

Maybe the Leader could be a sort of a spokesperson for the entire hive-mind?

Well it seems 3.17 changed how the game handles buildings. Previously, scripting could add multiples of a building even if it wasn't possible to build more than one of the building. I'll either have to find a workaround, or reverse this change in the dll.

If you do go a semi-hive mind, you might want to go with the Phraints from the west coast 'mod' of AD&D, Aruduin (or originially the Aruduin Grimoire) by David A. Hargrave.

The Phraints where a insectoid race that was completely logical so were similar to your typical Vulcan in regards to emotion. They were mostly neutered warriors and workers with male drones and female queens as well as the head queen which did most of the egg-laying. Phraint units would all came from the same 'stick' in that the all the same eggs attached to a birthing pillar.

Most phraint where green or blue, but there would be some 'Crazy Eddie' red phraints. (The term taking from the novel A Mote In God's Eye) These phraints could understand emotion and thus could harness magic.

Here is a picture of one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduin

I would think that a race like this might be interesting to have a civ that could 'grow' warriors with more experience to start with, but then would advance very slowly, perhaps also not being able to 'upgrade' into a higher class of units like axeman to heavy infantry for example.

As I just posted over on the Minor request thread, I've been thinking that since FfH is about duality and orcs are the dark reflection of elves, that there should be a goblin race as a dark reflection of dwarves.

But how to make them unique? I mean there are lots of races, more if/when the Asian flavored civs come in and perhaps someday the Jotnar as well. Well I know I got shot down about the Kadhi (but the base idea seems to have survived with the 'Tibetan' civ) but I was thinking that FF's Archos civ might be an excellent match.

Both Dwarves and Goblins mostly live underground. So do the spiders revered by the Archos. Now in the Hobbit, you also had spiders in forests as we do in FfH. Now living under trees is at least better than living out in the open so I could see Goblins doing it as well.

Certainly there would be some challenges to this since all of the graphics are the Archos are all designed for 'men' and not shorter goblins. I don't know what resources are available to have units created. However, since most of the units are already done, I would think it a lot easier to just change the human graphic to a goblin.

If this flies, then a small tweak could be done to the barbarians and Clan of Embers by transforming those current goblin units to kobolds. Wouldn't even need to change their graphics, just some tweaks in the to the text coding.

But orcs are not the dark reflections of elves, they are humans who worshippepd Bhall! (Unless you are talking about their completely opposite world view).

Goblin civs, however, would be cool, maybe making them Warcraft style miners and other weird gadget makers?

But orcs are not the dark reflections of elves, they are humans who worshippepd Bhall! (Unless you are talking about their completely opposite world view).

Goblin civs, however, would be cool, maybe making them Warcraft style miners and other weird gadget makers?

Well I guess one of these days I really need to read the entire FfH lore. :hammer2:

On the Goblins, we already have gadget makers in them Mechanos and besides, FfH/FF/Orbis is supposed to be something new. Why make it a Warcraft/Warhammer clone? I mean we already have the Luchirp making golems and Mechanos making gadgets; I can't think of anything else that could be wedged in there, hence my view they could use the FF Archoes as a theme. Besides, making them goblins wouldn't fundamentally change the Archoe; mostly just their animations.

Maybe Goblins make mobile suits as a mix between Golems and Gadgets? :p

goblin shredders FTW!

Why bother to change the Archos to goblins if your not planning to change the civ, just leave them as they are, if it isn't broken don't fix it.

Why bother to change the Archos to goblins if your not planning to change the civ, just leave them as they are, if it isn't broken don't fix it.

Well I can think of a few reason right off the bat.

First is aesthetics. We already have plenty of civs that are based on men or at least man-sized humanoids. Adding in another civ is boring.

Secondly, my idea is I think it would be good to have goblins to be the 'dark-mirror' of the dwarves. Both tend to live underground. In my D&D campaign long, long ago, I had goblins being smarter and more into magic. Orbis already has those. In many campaigns, goblins are like 'evil gnomes' and do tinkering and the like. Orbis already has the Mechanos and the Lurchirp. So how to make them unique? Well the history of the Archos has them living underground to BANG! we have a match.

Thirdly, by bringing them into Orbis as goblins, it will alert players of FF to expect changes if changes end up being made. Just because I like the Archos as they are, I can expect some fiddling with them just as Ahwaric did with the Scions when he ported them in.

Fourthly, other than changing the graphics, not much is needed to be changed rather than going through the long process that the Ngolome are going through and all the problems the Jotnar are causing in FF in stability issues. The Archos already work so just changing the graphics probably won't screw things up as badly.

Fifthly, I think it allows to tweak the CoE a bit. As I've said, the graphic models for the current goblins always look like kobolds to me. Again in many works and in my own personal D&D games, Orcs and Goblins can work together but often times the goblins resent the Orcs pushing them around simply because they are bigger. Since the goblins would tend to be more organized, they could keep from being subjugated outright like the kobolds were.

So if we make the current CoE goblins kobolds, (just changing the name, nothing else) what else needs some tweaking of the CoE? Obviously with the Matzatl, I think the Clan needs to lose their lizardmen. I've always dislike these units. I'd rather see orc or kobold versions of these. Plus, last time I checked, the CoE doesn't look very orcish to me...but I haven't seen one lately I'll admit.

I first thought that by CoE you meant Council of Esus but it didn't make any sense. Then I remembered the Clan of Embers! I'm used to just call them the Clan... Whatever :p

At first, I was very skeptical about the whole Archos to goblins thing. I really like the Archos for their theme (even though I'm spider phobic) and I though that turning them into goblins would be... unfitting. I always wanted them to be more spider-y. You know, of this kind... huh, I would have shown pictures here but searching google for them wasn't good for me. I saw horrible things... :( So, maybe making them goblins could fit. However, I think, if we port them to Orbis, that we shouldn't just do them a makeover and voila.

And what about the hive mind civ? Suspended?

I also have a problem with CoE meaning Clan of Embers and CoE meaning Council of Esus -_-.

Anyways, I am also wondering about this hive mind civ, did they give up?

And what the heck did happen with the darn Eastern Civ?

And what the heck did happen with the darn Eastern Civ?

Well I did post a bit about them on that thread. I, personally, am for fiddling with the Sidar to make them the Chinese/Korean/Japanese race. The reasoning goes for those who have missed it.

1. The Sidar, as they are, are mostly felt by all (and especially Ahwaric) to be a boring race.
2. They supposedly hate undead but have nothing in their civics, units or spells that would make them better against undead.
3. They really only have one unique unit. Did I mention boring already?

So my reasoning was the 'problem' I see with the C/K/J is that while most of us like the idea, a lot of the idea is the look of those cultures. I mean who wouldn't rather see samurai heavy warriors, junks for galleons, turtle ships for ironclads, ninjas instead of the graphics for ghosts and archers with those flags on their backs? However, (again not to diss these cultures) from a stand point of something unique, mostly there isn't a lot that would distinguish them from other races already in the game.

So I'm not going to get to much more into it, but I think once again, a lot of flavor could be added back to the Sidar simply by changing the graphics, adding in some C/K/J unique units and then it's a matter of dealing with their form of immortality and why/how they hate undead. A post for another time.

Now I think Ahwaric likes the idea of the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian Civ that uses a modified Sheaim/Kahdi gate system where they summon mid-level elementals based on which mana nodes they use. Since these would be the bulk of their forces, they can only build a limited amount of units like heavy warriors that in this case would represent classic heroes one often finds in the C/K/J literature. That and this civ would be heavy into alchemy (the more 'classic' Asian kind) and philosophy.

So by make the Sidar a more Asian-flavored race, we don't need to add a new civ. The Senshi (or what ever the T/N/I race would be called) adds some interesting ideas from the FF Kahdi. Eventually we may also see the Nogolome and Jotnar. Obviously I like my idea for the goblin Archos. Beyond that, I can't see adding any other races other than fiddling around with the idea of a hive mind.

...or maybe the Aifons. :p

I read the thread about an Aifon civ a few days ago. I was interested in the idea but most people there agreed not to create them since making them able to settle in water would basically make them invincible (more or less). However, making them only able to settle on tile near coast could do the trick. Maybe able to improve the water tiles with submarine infrastructure? :p

Other than that, and more personally, I already thought of some ideas for another civ after the Ngomele (arkham, you have trouble with their name, don't you? :p). Namely, those are: an elemental civilization where peoples are elementals; a plant civilization where cities (trees) can spread pollen on forests and eventually spawn interesting units from them and where units can "settle" in a tile, being then held but also much more powerful and able to spread pollen too; and a human civilization with unknown gameplay: I just want to add one more human faction :)

(arkham, you have trouble with their name, don't you? :p).

I blame it on my PTSD. That's my story and I'm sticking with it! :hammer2:

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that "We're done!" - I'm just thinking that with the Nogo...Ngol...the gnolls, possibly the giants and hopefully the T/N/I Asians, bringing in new civs is going to be a bit of a challenge to make them unique. Obviously the hive mind and plant civs are interesting ideas!

Didn't lore forum say that they lived on islands, but could breathe underwater?

And what about the hive mind civ? Suspended?
No, just Mylon did not post anything recently and arkham hijacked his thread :P
And what the heck did happen with the darn Eastern Civ?
Had to wait, but I plan to start real work on them soon.

I, personally, am for fiddling with the Sidar to make them the Chinese/Korean/Japanese race.

Now I think Ahwaric likes the idea of the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian Civ that uses a modified Sheaim/Kahdi gate system where they summon mid-level elementals based on which mana nodes they use. Since these would be the bulk of their forces, they can only build a limited amount of units like heavy warriors that in this case would represent classic heroes one often finds in the C/K/J literature. That and this civ would be heavy into alchemy (the more 'classic' Asian kind) and philosophy.
I did not want to add more japan to sidar, but it might be a good idea. Ninjas for espionage and covert operations, isolationism fits Japan and Sidar... Also, divided souls have Japanise look.
Also, you have summarized quite good my idea for "chinese" civ. Maybe add some genasi and elemental aspects for the normal units, and that is it.
...or maybe the Aifons. :p
Maybe one day...
Namely, those are: an elemental civilization where peoples are elementals; a plant civilization where cities (trees) can spread pollen on forests and eventually spawn interesting units from them and where units can "settle" in a tile, being then held but also much more powerful and able to spread pollen too; and a human civilization with unknown gameplay: I just want to add one more human faction :)
Elemental one will go to Chinese civ... But I like plant civ :)
But I need to finish one civ before starting work on another.

Hijacking finished! ;)

Haha, Xienwolf suggested a plant civ when he was explaining his aspect system. :p

Plant civilization o_o, maybe a slower population growth (Trees don't grow overnight)?

I could just "borrow" one of the existing civs and shove that civ's former unique features onto another civ. So another "man" civilization wouldn't be so boring after all.

No idea where the post Valk is talking about would be found, but the original post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6537681&highlight=flora#post6537681) where I mentioned my Hakri Civs.

I like your Cledarn civilization. Not really similar to mine: while they both are flora civilizations, mine wouldn't emphasize the "sharing memories" part. Maybe they would be their "Neanderthal"? :p

No idea where the post Valk is talking about would be found, but the original post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6537681&highlight=flora#post6537681) where I mentioned my Hakri Civs.

The Sar wouldn't happened to be named after an Avian character Tchar in the animated "The Jihad" would it? :p

BTW, Ahwaric, I didn't hijack this thread...I merely borrowed it for a moment. :eek:

All names made up long ago when I started working on a non-Anthropomorphic book design. Haven't heard of the thing you reference before (Tchar is his name? Do you pronounce it Sar then? I'm just not seeing the connection, other than aviary)

Do you pronounce it Sar then? I'm just not seeing the connection, other than aviary)

I have them on DVD so I need to watch it again. I seem to recall it was pronounced something similar to Tsar.

To be honest, I do prefer Fall Further's tendency towards balance and a few other features it uses. I might grab some Orbis features I like (and don't take too much effort) and port them over. Thus far I've been developing a mod for Fall Further, using my cultural model and a few other changes.

I'm still planning the idea, though things got muddled quite a bit on the way with all of the talk about insects and such. I want to go with the original idea: A gearing towards perfection, with an indoctrination that most people undergo to benefit from the experiences of the past. Think a combination of Brave New World and Planescape Torment's Sensates.