View Full Version : SCENARIO: The Napoleonic Wars


Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 12:42 AM
4th Project update:

I've completed some major work regarding the map in the past couple days. What I've done is eliminated roads altogether (hold on), and given each city a people 'resource' underneath, which allows each city to be able to produce certain nationality units depending upon what kind of 'people' resource is tucked away underneath each city. This allows the British to create 'German Line Infantry' in Hanover and Bremen, but no where else (since the 'German' resource isn't present anywhere else that Britain controls). It took forever to think out, and another forever to create, and a 3rd forever to make it work. In addition to that, I eliminated jungle, transforming into a sort of 'pseudo-road' which looks identical to grassland, but gives the same sort of bonus as if it were a road. Check out my thread in the general forum about '1-Tile Road Suggestions' (or whatever I named it) to see what I've done regarding that.

I'm working on a completed unit list, with unit strengths and types and all that fun stuff. Expect that fairly soon in the next update. I've gotten all of the units to work in the game (without it crashing) so far, so that's a step in the right direction. Now I just need the units to stick into the scenario. ;)

I've changed the standard 'mine' graphic into a small village sort of thing. It looks more accurate, and kind of cool also. :)

I think that's about it for now. More in the next update.

Project Details:

So yes, this is my next project. I originally planned to do this one first, but I got a case of Civil War fever, and the rest is history. This time around though, I plan on spending more time on working on the scenario. For my Civil War scenario, I simply wanted to be the first one to get out a 'good' complete large-scale scenario, but now I want to make a 'great' scenario, no matter how long it takes. :) That coupled with the fact that I have about an hour to myself every day means that the pace for the creation of this scenario will be much slower.

The current list of civs in the scenario is: Prussia, Russia, Spain, France, Britain, Austria, the Ottoman Empire, Sweden, Poland, Northern European Minors (Denmark, Portugal, Holland, etc.), Northern German Minors (Saxony, Kleves, Mainz, etc.), Southern German Minors (Bavaria, Wurzburg, Baden, etc.), Northern Italian Minors (Venice, Romagna, Tuscany, Switzerland, etc.), Papal States, African Minors (Libya, Algiers, Tunis, Morocco), and (of course) Barbarians (bah). I had to fit it within the 16-civ limit, and I think that was the best way I could do so.

Currently, the basic unit list is like so (most infantry/cavalry units have a 1792 and 1805 variation):


Line Infantry 1792 (Basic infantry)
Line Infantry 1805
Grenadiers 1792 (Heavy, veteran infantry formations)
Grenadiers 1805
Light Infantry 1792 (Skirmishing light infantry formations)
Light Infantry 1805

Dragoons 1792 (Standard cavalry like the one in Civ 3)
Dragoons 1805
Cuirassiers 1792 (Guys on horses with big swords that ride fast)
Cuirassiers 1805
Hussars 1792 (Fast cavalry forces with swords, used mainly for skirmishing and scouting)
Hussars 1805

3 Pounder
6 Pounder
9 Pounder
Howitzer

1st Rate Ship of the Line
2nd Rate Ship of the Line
3rd Rate Ship of the Line
Frigate
Sailed Transport

Keep in mind all land units require 1 population point, as they are rather large formations for the time.

I've placed all of the nations navies on the map now. I'll give you the numbers that each has of each type of ship. If I don't name a unit, then it doesn't have any ships. The total warship count at the end doesn't include transports.

Naval Disposition

* All total counts do not include Transports
** Nations that have one fleet have it located outside their capital city

Nation 1st Rate 2nd Rate 3rd Rate Frigate S Transport Total*

BRITAIN 6 15 9 15 7 46 ships

London 3 7 4 6 7 20
Brest 2 4 4 5 1 15
Gibraltar 1 4 2 4 2 11

N. E. MINORS 2 14 11 11 3 38 ships

Copenhagen 1 5 4 4 1 14
Amsterdam 1 5 4 4 1 14
Lisbon 0 4 3 3 1 10

SPAIN 2 10 8 10 3 30 ships

Valencia 2 8 6 7 2 23
Naples 0 2 2 3 1 7

FRANCE 2 10 8 8 4 28 ships

Le Havre 1 5 3 3 2 12
Bordeaux 1 2 2 2 1 7
Toulon 0 3 3 3 1 9

RUSSIA 0 6 6 7 3 19 ships

St. Petersburg 0 4 3 5 1 12
Sevastopol 0 2 3 2 2 7

OTTOMANS** 0 4 5 5 2 14 ships

SWEDEN** 0 2 1 3 1 6 ships

All cities and improvements are placed on the map currently. I'm tweaking cities a bit, to modify production and population values to try and make them more accurate, along with tweaking city names.

Here's the current terretorial breakdown.

Stormbringer
Sep 08, 2002, 09:43 AM
I think you should leave Sweeden alone, and merge Holland and Denmark into one civ. Denmark and Holland had pretty much the same goals during the time so it makes sence, but Sweeden fought wars against denmark, and making them one civ doesn't make sence.

CivGeneral
Sep 08, 2002, 09:46 AM
Smoking Mirror's Napoleonic Riflemen would go great with this Scenario :D.

ViceRoy
Sep 08, 2002, 10:12 AM
I suggest you wait for that Smoking Mirror infantry and Dark Sheer colonial musketman.

You should get also some new cavalry that would fight with lances and swords. There are some of my previes of them in "early industrial units"-thread.

I would like to see unit that would combine infantry/cavalry/artillery in to one unit. No, I don't mean like army but like unit that could look like the industrial leader unit but when attacking the animations would be those Inf/cav/art attacking.

If you give that unit high attack/defence and also high shield and possible population cost it would represent real army. Giving it "leader" option will also give chance that it will be named from the great leaders option bar so leaders like Wellington and Napoleon would be there. I think this would be nice add for the scenario and these "army" units would be mostly used to battle the most important battles when other units could concentrate into scouting etc.

I suggest making also "homeguard" units that can be produced in cities but are just defending units without the chance to move (immobile).

I think you need some more units though as there are only few for the period.
Also one problem is the tech tree. What it would describe in the scenario. Same goes to the buildings/wonders. Otherwise your scenario is brilliant idea and it would be nice to see if you could get someone help you and maybe get it ready someday.

Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 11:06 AM
I would make Sweden its own civ, but unfortunately I have a severe lack of slots to put civs into. That means I had to lump Denmark, Sweden (ouch), and even Holland (spare me Lord) into one civ to allow for a more diverse map-wide group. Of course, those civs aren't set in stone, so I may end up changing things around a bit, and if I did make one more 'independent' civ, it will certainly be Sweden.

Those are the two units I've been waiting for don't worry. :goodjob Just take a look at DS' Musketman thread, I'm drooling all over the carpeting watching and trying to be patient. ;)

As far as the units, I'll certainlly take much more time to tweak and add and modify than I did on my last scenario. Here's the current list:

Musketman
Rifleman
Imperial Guard
Dragoon
Lancer

3 Pounder
6 Pounder
9 Pounder
12 Pounder
Howitzer

20 Gun Frigate
30 Gun Frigate
40 Gun Frigate
60 Gun Ship of the Line
80 Gun Ship of the Line
100 Gun Ship of the Line
120 Gun Ship of the Line
Galleon (Transport)

I may (probably) end up reducing the # of artillery and naval ship choices available (who really needs 6 kinds of warships at once?), but I wanted to start off diverse. The Rifleman unit represents the crude form that only the British used in the Peninsular Campaign, not Civil War era riflemen or anything. I know that the Imperial Guard unit could probably be simply considered elite Musketmen, but it's just more fun to have an actual unit named that. :) Any other ideas for units would be appreciated. :)

W.i.n.t.e.r
Sep 08, 2002, 11:24 AM
Right- U got the Papal states, what about Napoli ??

Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 11:30 AM
At the time, Napoli, aka 'The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies' was under direct Hapsburg (Spanish) control at the time, so all the land in Italy up to the Papal States will belong to Spain at the start of the scenario. If it were possible to make the Neopolitans allied to Spain at the start, then I would do it, but I don't see that happening, and I'm out of civ-slots as it is. :p

Civanator
Sep 08, 2002, 11:36 AM
hey, when i'm done with the mercenary hoplite i could probably help with the cannons, and maybe the guys with the guns. ;)

ViceRoy
Sep 08, 2002, 11:36 AM
But is example Portugal more important to be there as civilization than Sweden?

And what years exactly your are going to use for this scenario?

Also that many ships and artillery are in mind unnecessary. I would but more focus into "national units" that would have little bit different stats than just lot of general units that are available to all.
Also is in your scenario possible be played with any of the civs or just with France example?

Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 11:43 AM
Thanks Civanator, that would be a great help, since I'm graphically inept, but unfortunately quite ambitious. ;)

Good point ViceRoy.
*Switches Portugal with Sweden*
Portugal is now part of the Northern European Minors (who else could I add them to?), while Sweden is independent.

The scenario will start in 1792 (or 4000 BC, theoretically :rolleyes:), and go until whenever. It will be playable by anyone (which must be set in the editor by changing players though), and I will make '.SAV scenarios' for each major power, which will have all build orders done, all units fortified, and diplomacy tweaked a bit for a more realistic feel.

I know what you're saying about the artillery and ships. I'll certainly cut down, I just want to start broad, and see what values work best. I'll probably reduce the numbers to around 3 or so each in the end. I'll also have different nationalities of units, i.e. "French Patriots", which will be available to only France at the beginning of the scenario who fight very well, but are later replaced with regulars.

Also, another thing I would like assistance with is the leaders of each country. I could look them up myself, but I'm lazy and I'm sure you guys out there can help me. :) I'll probably just start France with Napoleon, since I can't change it later on, and he's what the entire scenario is about anyways. :p

W.i.n.t.e.r
Sep 08, 2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Trip
At the time, Napoli, aka 'The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies' was under direct Hapsburg (Spanish) control at the time, so all the land in Italy up to the Papal States will belong to Spain at the start of the scenario. If it were possible to make the Neopolitans allied to Spain at the start, then I would do it, but I don't see that happening, and I'm out of civ-slots as it is. :p

Spain at the time was under the reign of Carlos IV of the Borbon Family, NOT Habsburg! His son, Fernando VII would succeed him as king of Spain after the fall of Joseph Bonaparte !!!

W.i.n.t.e.r
Sep 08, 2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by ViceRoy
But is example Portugal more important to be there as civilization than Sweden?

And what years exactly your are going to use for this scenario?

Also that many ships and artillery are in mind unnecessary. I would but more focus into "national units" that would have little bit different stats than just lot of general units that are available to all.
Also is in your scenario possible be played with any of the civs or just with France example?

I would also give Portugal to England as their alliance was very close- to the extend that the Portugese Islands were defended sololy by British forces after the "War of Oranges" between Spain and Portugal. This is comparable to the Polish army fighting under British command during WWII.

Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by W.i.n.t.e.r
Spain at the time was under the reign of Carlos IV of the Borbon Family, NOT Habsburg! His son, Fernando VII would succeed him as king of Spain after the fall of Joseph Bonaparte !!!
Okay, - Hapsburgs then. :p

Gorgoroth
Sep 08, 2002, 02:32 PM
Hmmmmmm not bad scenario idea, too bad that I dont really like the 1800s era.

W.i.n.t.e.r
Sep 08, 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Trip

Okay, - Hapsburgs then. :p

The Habsburgs rule Austria !!!!!!!!!!! - another reason why it doesn't make sense to put Spain under Habsburg rule (apart of historical inaccuracy)

Jon Shafer
Sep 08, 2002, 08:26 PM
I meant as far as Spain. Spain and Austria were under the same leadership for the most part for a certain period of time, and a lot of Flanders and some other locations switched between Spain and Austria every so often.

Don't worry about it. :p Spain controls the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, Austria controls a few spots in northern Italy and Flanders, and everyone goes home happy. :p

Civanator
Sep 09, 2002, 12:26 PM
Trip, the colonial musket mane is out!!! just thought i'd tell you. ;)

Jon Shafer
Sep 09, 2002, 12:50 PM
Don't worry, I've already got it working. ;)

Smoking mirror
Sep 10, 2002, 04:53 PM
Trip, have you thought very hard about the size of the map? I think a standard size europe map would be a much better idea, turns on a giga map would take for ever. On random civ II maps, there is about 70% water, where as a map of europe only has about 20-30% water at most, so a standard europe map is actualy quite big (I tried it the other day, and a standard map has plenty of room for historical cities and such like as well as all the important islands.

On a different note, Iv'e just finished the Napoleonic rifleman, I'm going to post it in a few minuites.
Heres a preveiw;

Jon Shafer
Sep 10, 2002, 06:29 PM
On the side note, thanks for the unit. ;)

Don't worry about the size and turn length. Not the entire map is covered in cities, and the ones that are there are pretty well spaced out. France has about 20 or so cities, Britain has 15 (including Gibraltar), and each of the minor country civs has about 6 or 8. I may end up making a smaller map version, but it wouldn't have the detail I wanted.

ViceRoy
Sep 11, 2002, 03:00 AM
I suggest not using Huge map.
Turns take forever with that and in smaller map you getter better feel of situation...

Also I think you should consider is the northern africa so important it needs to be in the game. This would leave the Northern Africa minors out of the game and in the end the deciding factor was Europe not Northern Africa. So I suggest cutting the Africa of leaving only small land close to the Gibraltar.

Even though detail is good...there must be thought that if the map is large...units will drown to it and people will lose the feel of being control of their nation. Also if I was you I would consider the amount of cities as well. Are there needs to be so many? I think there were far too many cities in your earlier civil war scenario.

Here's small "victory objective" idea…

I think only the option of Conquer victory is little bit stupid so I suggest also giving chance for either Space Race or diplomatic victory.
Ok…not real "Space Race" option as that would be even more stupid but…let me explain.

I'm not sure can there be more than one wonder that has same ability. Example Apollo Program that gives ability to build spaceship parts. Idea is that each civ starts with their own tech that cannot be traded (also it could give certain type of Government that is hated by the others) which gives ability to build wonder that is same like Apollo Program. So Example France has wonder called "France Victory" in town. And…here comes the fun part…Different objectives are spaceship parts. And each spaceship part requires certain resource. Resource that is only in one place on map…in certain victory objective (city).
So example that France could win the "Space Race" they must build "spaceship parts" Moscow, Napoli etc. and to get build it they must conquer those cities to get the resource from that town. Giving the resource appearance ratio like 1 and disappearance of 0 means that it will be only the place it's put in the editor. And even though the city would razed the resource stays there and with new colony or city it can be taken.
This allows that example Russia can still fight against France when they lose Moscow but if France has chance to get connection to Moscow resource it will give them chance to build Moscow spaceship part. However problem here is of course that later Russia can take Moscow back and France won't lose the spaceship part. But this could be prevented by giving the spaceship part high cost enough so it would take time to build it.
This same could work with Diplomatic victory option too. Before one can build "the United Nations" he would have to get certain wonders to be build before it which need certain resources.

I think this is the only way to describe victory objectives. Of course if there's chance to build only one "Apollo program" then each civ must have same general objectives like London, Paris etc. to be able to build wonders and be able to win the scenario.

aka_Macca
Sep 12, 2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Trip
Here's the current list:

Musketman
Rifleman
Imperial Guard
Dragoon
Lancer

3 Pounder
6 Pounder
9 Pounder
12 Pounder
Howitzer

20 Gun Frigate
30 Gun Frigate
40 Gun Frigate
60 Gun Ship of the Line
80 Gun Ship of the Line
100 Gun Ship of the Line
120 Gun Ship of the Line
Galleon (Transport)

I would suggest the following;

Musketman - There should be a difference between the conscripted French infantry and the highly trained British Line regiments (notably the British army were the only army to train with live ammo).
Rifleman - Note that normally individual Rifle companies were attached to Line Regiments so there were very rarely and large discrete groups of Riflemen. This suggests that you should also include the Light Infantry and the Grenadiers who were attached in a similar way to the Rifle companies (noting that most British line regiments consisted of 8 Line companies, 1 Light company and 1 Grenadier company).
Imperial Guard - The Elite French infantry who were invincible until Waterloo
Lancer
Hussars - Light Cavalry
Dragoon - Medium Cavalry
Carabiniers - Medium French Cav with Carbines
Cuirassiers - Elite Heavy French Cavalry

3 Pounder - Light Cannon?
6 Pounder - Medium Cannon?
12 Pounder - Heavy Cannon?
Howitzer

30 Gun Frigate - Frigate

80 Gun Ship of the Line - 3rd Rate SotL
90 Gun Ship of the Line - 2nd Rate SotL
100 Gun Ship of the Line - 1st Rate SotL
120 Gun Ship of the Line
Galleon (Transport)

I hope this isn't too much info but I've read a few Sharpe novels :D

Psycho420
Sep 16, 2002, 04:21 PM
Where can I download that Europe map for my own use? Thanks

Yoda Power
Sep 26, 2002, 12:19 PM
If I were you(which im not) I would use a standard map.

Jon Shafer
Oct 06, 2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Psycho420
Where can I download that Europe map for my own use? Thanks
It's Norm's Giga Map of Europe. You should be able to find it in the maps section here.

As far as using a smaller map, I think I may make 2 versions of the scenario, one on a huge map, and one on the giga map. The scenario requires I use at least a huge map in order to capture the detail necassary in central Europe. Keep in mind though, that not every spot will be full of cities, so it won't be as hard CPU-wise as it may seem.

Steph
Oct 06, 2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by aka_Macca

Carabiniers - Medium French Cav with Carbines
Cuirassiers - Elite Heavy French Cavalry


Carabiniers and Cuirassiers where both considered heavy cavalry.

aka_Macca
Oct 08, 2002, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Steph


Carabiniers and Cuirassiers where both considered heavy cavalry.

Really? That does strike me as a bit odd, as I thought that before the tank all heavy cavalry had no ranged weaponry. Where did you find this info? I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just interested.

Steph
Oct 08, 2002, 08:01 AM
Lililan and Fred Funcken books, "L'uniforme et les armes des soldats du premier empire". I'm really into napoleonic period, as a figurinist, so I know Napoleonian army quite well, especially French (as I'm French).

French Imperial Cavarly was divided in three :

- "Grosse cavalerie" (heavy cavalry) with Cuirassiers (12 regiments) and Carabiniers (2 regiments),
- "Cavalerie de ligne" (line cavalry) with Dragoon (30 regiments) and Lancers (6 regiments)
- "Cavalerie légère" (light cavalry) hussars (11 regiments) and Chasseurs (15 regiments).

Jon Shafer
Oct 08, 2002, 11:08 AM
First real update of the thread. Check the first post in the thread for new info. :)

Stormbringer
Oct 08, 2002, 08:19 PM
You should place some small cities in Sweeden and Russia, and give them a lot of culture, just to make the borders look right in the map.

W.i.n.t.e.r
Oct 09, 2002, 03:40 AM
... inf act I'd suggest a much smaller map in both East and South- the Russians are gonna become a monster if U leave it like that, and the game will not be playable for long- also exntend the map to the West (the French, British and Spanish were also fighting in the Caribean...)

W.i.n.t.e.r
Oct 09, 2002, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Smoking mirror
Trip, have you thought very hard about the size of the map? I think a standard size europe map would be a much better idea, turns on a giga map would take for ever. On random civ II maps, there is about 70% water, where as a map of europe only has about 20-30% water at most, so a standard europe map is actualy quite big (I tried it the other day, and a standard map has plenty of room for historical cities and such like as well as all the important islands.

On a different note, Iv'e just finished the Napoleonic rifleman, I'm going to post it in a few minuites.
Heres a preveiw;

I c it has already be brought up :D

In other fields- if we get enough people together we can further customize the units (i.e. Austrian riflemen, Prussian, etc). Since they are in civ colors anyway, customization would mostly be done by changing the headgear (some cases the pants or straps)

Jon Shafer
Oct 09, 2002, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by W.i.n.t.e.r
... inf act I'd suggest a much smaller map in both East and South- the Russians are gonna become a monster if U leave it like that, and the game will not be playable for long- also exntend the map to the West (the French, British and Spanish were also fighting in the Caribean...)
There won't be any Settlers in the game, don't worry about it. Besides, if I extended as far west as the Carribbean, then Prussia would only be one city. :crazyeye:

Winter, SmokingMirror was referring to when I was using a giga sized map for the scenario. It's now only huge (I won't go any lower).

As far as the unit customization, that would be awesome if I could foster the support to do that. Right now I have statusperfect doing a larger artillery unit (I'll probably use it for the 9 Pounder), and he's going to work on a Guard unit, so I can use that image for the Imperial Guard.

So in other words, if you can go graphics well, and have a bit of spare time to devote to a poor guy and his scenario, I would be much obliged. ;)

Steph
Oct 09, 2002, 11:26 AM
I can provide picture for almost all the country and all kind of units, but I know nothing about modelling them...

Jon Shafer
Oct 09, 2002, 03:08 PM
Send me all you have to TripGoT@hotmail.com. I have a few pictures of some stuff, and flags for each of the countries, but extra material to work with is always nice. :)

Jon Shafer
Oct 09, 2002, 08:51 PM
More extensive unit list added.

joespaniel
Oct 09, 2002, 09:08 PM
Trip - This is an awe-inspiring project! Great work so far!

Jon Shafer
Oct 09, 2002, 09:54 PM
Thanks a lot. :)

Due to the recent release of some of the units that are very useful for this scenario, there will be much more flavor than there would have been (I'm about as artistic as a rock). I can whip up maps and units and cities for days on end, but hand me 3DSM or Photoshop and I run. ;)

Also, on an unrelated note, if anyone knows a better system for naming the naval vessals (the exact # of guns would be nice, rather than 40/60/80/100), I would appreciate it if you would enlighten me. :) I mainly deal with the land aspect of the era and don't know as much as I could about the war on the seas.

Steph
Oct 10, 2002, 11:18 AM
The only pb with the picture is ... their number!
I have 2 150 pages book + 21 Osprey Ment-at-arms books, filled with Napoleonic pictures. It will take a very long time to scan all of them!

Tell me what you need the most. As I said, I have almost all the countries, with Infantry, Cavalry, Artilllery.

For instance, if you plan to make only line infantry, I won't scan light infantry...

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 07:28 AM
Mostly, I want the line infantry uniforms for the countries I listed in my first post. Beyond that, the uniforms can be transferred over to artillery/cavalry/etc. will a fair amount of ease. Those Osprey books are top-notch... I have the Austerlitz and the Lutzen and Bautzen ones, and they're quite nice. :) Thanks for helping me out, this should simplify things quite a bit. :goodjob:

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:15 AM
A few map screenshots. If anyone has comments/recommendations, please don't hesitate. :)

The hotbed of conflict for the scenario, Germany:

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:16 AM
Italy:

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:20 AM
France:

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:21 AM
Britain:

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:22 AM
Spain:

Steph
Oct 11, 2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Trip
Mostly, I want the line infantry uniforms for the countries I listed in my first post. Beyond that, the uniforms can be transferred over to artillery/cavalry/etc. will a fair amount of ease.

That would be the worst way to do it, as for most of the countries, artillery, cavalry and infantry uniforms where very different!

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 09:36 AM
They're more similar to each other than they were to other countries. ;) After all, I don't really have the ability to produce a variant for every possible kind of formation that existed. I'm mainly interested in the infantry because that's what most countries associated with most often, i.e. most people rememeber the British troops of the time as redcoats... they don't remember the different kinds for cavalry, artillery, etc., but just the line infantry. If I could get an exact replica of every single unit in the game, that would be great, but I only have so many people working on it, and so much time. ;) I hope you understand my dilemma. :p

Steph
Oct 11, 2002, 10:40 AM
I do. I was not thinking of making one unit for every formation (France alone had 6 main line cavalry) but select one representative cavalry and infantry. For artillery, if you do only the gun without the crew, simply changing the colors to the country standard one could be enough. But if you add crew, then using line infantry uniform may seem very strange to the "purist".

I will try to scan some units tomorrow.

By the way, would you need various picture, like 1805 uniform and 1812 uniforms, in order to propose upgrades?

I plan to scan not always the most common uniform for the purpose of your mod, but representative uniform.

Jon Shafer
Oct 11, 2002, 10:45 AM
Thanks for helping out. :)

Go ahead and scan line infantry and cavalry for each nation, and if there's time and resources available to make them all unique, then I'll do so. :) The two uniform types I wanted was 1792 and 1805, since those are the main two stages of the game (two seperate unit sets... 1805 is basically when units 'upgrade').

Also, if the book has the colors of each army (Prussian X thingy, same with Russians, French inverted diamond-looking thingy, Austrian hawk/eagle thing, etc.) then scanning those in would be very useful as well. :)

Needless to say, the most important uniforms I need are the 7 major powers of the time (Prussia, Russia, France, Austria, Britain, Spain and the Ottoman Empire). Most important ones are probably Ottomans (it's very hard to find images of those guys online...), Spanish and Austrians, simply because you can find French and British pretty easily, and the other ones aren't as rare (but still a chore to find).

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 04:33 AM
Early French line infantry. Date is 1806, but I think it's ok for 1795.

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 04:39 AM
Here are some French late line infantry.
Look at the number on the picture :
6 - Grey coat : Voltigeur (light infantry, but still in Line regiment), 1809
7- Fusillier (standard infantry) 1807
2 and 3 : Voltigeur, elite company, 1808
4 : Fusilier 1809
5 : Grenadier 1809
1 Genadier, elite company 1808

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 04:40 AM
Some cavalry now : French Cuirassier (heavy cavalry)

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 04:41 AM
Last one for today : French Dragoon (medium cavalry)

Yoda Power
Oct 12, 2002, 04:42 AM
I would use city names instead of country names, why not change saxony to leipzig or dresden?

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 04:47 AM
Some comment on the units you plan to have :

The armies at the time didn't evolved that much. Between 1795 and 1815, the way to fight changed, but not really the weapons, or the uniform.

Finding different looking unit for early / late napoleonic wars will be easy for infantry, at least for most of the countries. It will be harder for cavalry (for instance, for France only the carabiniers had an important change in the uniform).

Some other units will be hard to do, like Imperial Guard 1795 or Polish musketer 1795, as they didn't exist at that time.

Personnally, I think the units should be done another way.

There should be :

Infantry :
light infantry, line infantry , guard / grenadier

Cavalry :
Cuirassier , Dragoon, Hussars, or equivalent (heavy, medium, light cavalry).
Cuirassier : high attack, 2 MP
Dragoon : range attack, 2 MP
Hussar : poor attack defense, but 3 MP and ZOC (harassing tactics).

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 05:53 AM
French "chasseur a cheval" (light cavalry)

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 05:56 AM
Oops! I have reduced the quality of the picture to make it smaller... Perhaps a bit to much... I will have to scan them again!

You will have to wait for Prussia and Spain then...

Jon Shafer
Oct 12, 2002, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the uniforms. :)

Originally posted by Steph
Some comment on the units you plan to have :

The armies at the time didn't evolved that much. Between 1795 and 1815, the way to fight changed, but not really the weapons, or the uniform.
I didn't really plan on changing the look of the units, the difference is mainly used to reflect the changing tactics, along with giving the scenario a bit of 'umph', rather than using the same exact units for 1000 turns. :)

Finding different looking unit for early / late napoleonic wars will be easy for infantry, at least for most of the countries. It will be harder for cavalry (for instance, for France only the carabiniers had an important change in the uniform).
As I said, I didn't really plan on making the different units have different uniforms, just slightly different stats.

Some other units will be hard to do, like Imperial Guard 1795 or Polish musketer 1795, as they didn't exist at that time.We can fudge a bit there. ;) I'm still not done with the unit list, so the 1792 Imperial Guard may disappear before too long, or it may not... I'll have to see.

Personnally, I think the units should be done another way.

There should be :

Infantry :
light infantry, line infantry , guard / grenadier

Cavalry :
Cuirassier , Dragoon, Hussars, or equivalent (heavy, medium, light cavalry).
Cuirassier : high attack, 2 MP
Dragoon : range attack, 2 MP
Hussar : poor attack defense, but 3 MP and ZOC (harassing tactics).
Good suggestions. The unit list isn't the do-all end-all as it is right now. I just have to make each unit useful. When you say 'range attack' for Dragoon what do you mean? Do you mean giving it bombardment (which makes things pretty tricky)?

Steph
Oct 12, 2002, 12:42 PM
For Dragoon range attack, the minimum would be a range attack animation, like the current cavalry.
For Cuirassier, simply sword fight.

If you have to many animator :eek: you could even make AttackA with a shooting dragoon, and AttackB with a sword fighting Dragoon. This would be really cool, as Dragoon where train to fight on horse (with the sword), AND on foot (with musket)

Jon Shafer
Oct 12, 2002, 04:57 PM
Ohhhhh, I thought you meant a physical ranged attack, within the game, not just an animation. ;) And yes, you're right, they fought with both sabres and ranged weapons, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to get both animated, if possible. ;) I thought that Dragoons fought on horseback with carbines though, not dismounted with muskets (like 'traditional' cavalry)?

The main problem with adding so many mounted units is that it may be slightly difficult to find uses for all of them, and make them all perfectly balanced so they all have uses.

Smoking mirror
Oct 13, 2002, 05:00 AM
Looking good, I would recomend a remodeling of England; especialy London and Kent, right now kent is represented by a single mined square; through out history the towns in kent have proved an important industrial and cultural center of the south. Dover or canterbury should be included with london moved up slightly. You dont have to make it so that the city has a full city radius, just enough so that it can be represented.

perhaps just an extra land square would be good.
Also a few size one cities in scotland/Ireland would be good, even if its just for extra trade. Also even a single shield will produce a unit eventualy.

joespaniel
Oct 13, 2002, 12:35 PM
The screenshots look fantastic!

I am eagerly awaiting the rest of the unit pics.
Especialy Prussia. ;)

Jon Shafer
Oct 13, 2002, 03:18 PM
Thanks Joe! :D Prussia is my favorite country of the time, and it should be enjoyable cleaning up central Europe with their invincible army. ;)

Originally posted by Smoking mirror
Looking good, I would recomend a remodeling of England; especialy London and Kent, right now kent is represented by a single mined square; through out history the towns in kent have proved an important industrial and cultural center of the south. Dover or canterbury should be included with london moved up slightly. You dont have to make it so that the city has a full city radius, just enough so that it can be represented.

perhaps just an extra land square would be good.
Also a few size one cities in scotland/Ireland would be good, even if its just for extra trade. Also even a single shield will produce a unit eventualy.
I'm trying to make the population and size of Britain as small as possible, and even now Britain has almost as many people as Russia and France, which just isn't right. :p If you have suggestions for better city names/locations, let me know, but I'm somewhat against adding even more cities to Britain at the moment. :p

Jon Shafer
Oct 13, 2002, 03:48 PM
One thing I'd like to know if someone has accurate info is how each nation's cavalry stacked up. I have a very good idea of how good each nation's infantry was, but on cavalry I'm a bit sketchy, so if anyone knows more than me I would appreciate if they would inform me. ;)

Jon Shafer
Oct 13, 2002, 06:37 PM
New update for the first post. Remember to refresh to see the new mini map, otherwise it'll look the same. ;)

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:40 AM
Well, I've decided a break in France picture, as they are quite common. Instead, I have some pictures for Spain and Poland.

So here's come the poles! 2 Infantry, and 4 cavalry
1 = Grenadier, 1808
2 = Grenadier, 1806
3 = Lancer, 1808 (cavalry)
4 = Ulhan, 1807-1814
5 = Krakus; 1813
6 = Hussar, 1807-1814

The most significant part of poles uniform was their hat (picture 2,3 and 4)

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:42 AM
Now some early Spanish infantry
1 = Line infantry, 1808
2 = Light Infantry, 1808
3 = Grenadier, 1808
4 = Gunner, 1808
5 = Gunner, 180
6-7 = Grenadier, 1807-1808. I like their hat : Spain only!

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:44 AM
Spanish cavalry
1,2 = hussar 1808
3 - Line cavalry 1808
4 - Dragoon 1808
5 - "Cazador", 1808 (Chasseur)

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:46 AM
To finish with Spain, late infantry

1 = Grenadier
2 = Officer (chasseur)
2 = Light Infantry
4 = Rifleman
5 = Chasseur

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:48 AM
Last pics for today, we go not to far from Spain : Portuguese infantry. Next time, I should post Sweden and Austria

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 11:56 AM
About cavalry, here is my own statement. It's just my personnal opinion, backed by some reading, so others may see things differently.

France : very brave and bold cavalry, with excellent officers. I would give French cavalry the best attack, but a lower defense : their charge is terriffic, but they can let their enthousiasm bring them in dangerous situation.

Russia : average cavalry, good cossacks for harassing technique. I would give cossacks +1 move.

Austria : some very good caavalry units, at least in the beginning of the war. Should be one of the best early cav.

Prussia : outdated tactics at the start of the period. Should be worse than other. Better for late unit.

England : overall, poor cavalry, and seldom used by its officer. The strength of England should be its infantry.

No info for the other countries.

By the way Trip, was is the current status of infantry?

And I agree Prussia had a major role in the period.

"The English hated Napoleon so much they were ready to fight him to the last Prussian".

Jon Shafer
Oct 14, 2002, 12:27 PM
Thanks for the pictures and the cav info, both will be very useful. :goodjob: I didn't know that about the cavalry, so I appreciate that most of all.

Right now for infantry units, I have 1792 and 1805 flavors of muskets, I have 1 type of Militia (for all major powers only), and some other fairly 'custom' units, like British early riflemen, Turkish Janissaries, etc. I'm not sure if I can fit in light infantry somewhere though... the 'scout/ZoC' type unit is bundled into the 3 movment Hussar, making it of much greater importance than light infantry in the role. There is already a weaker, cheaper version of muskets (militia), so that may be redundant. I don't want to add a wasted unit. For example, all mounted units have an express purpose. Cavalry units are designed mainly as mounted, fast infantry. Dragoons have a high attack, low defense, and high cost. Hussars are quick-hit ZoC and recon. Each has an expresss purpose. If you have an recommendations on how to impliment light infantry please post them. ;)

Steph
Oct 14, 2002, 12:53 PM
First cavalry :
- Heavy cavalry were mainly cuirassier, so they should have a decent defense, but they main purpose was to breal the ennemy. So I would give a good attack, and lower defense (as the tank). Perhaps also blitz capability.
- Dragoon : armed with rifle and sword. As they were more polyvalent, I would give them a attack slightly better than defense, and a bombard strenght with 0 range (so they can fire at incoming unit).
- Hussar : ZOC, 3 MP, low attack/defense (compared to other cavalry).

I think you have mixed cavalry and dragoon. And Cuirassier would be a better name, as dragoon and hussar are part of the cavalry.

For infantry :
- Line infantry : standard unit, with defense slighty better than attack.
- Light infantry : bombard strength, with 0 range. There purpose is to fight skirmishes, and reduce the strength of attacking troop before they are in contact.
- Grenadier / Guard : higher cost, but with better state, especially attacl. Big strong guys used to break ennemy unit.

I would drop the militia, as not so many countries really used militia.

Instead, you could have units specific to some civ :
- France will have a very strong imperial guard
- England could have highlander
- Prussia will have landwehr (low cost militia).
- Russia will get deadly cossacks.
- Austria : could be hungarian infantry ?
- Spain will have guerilla



And finding uniform for light infantry will be a lot easier than for militia.

Jon Shafer
Oct 14, 2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Steph
First cavalry :
- Heavy cavalry were mainly cuirassier, so they should have a decent defense, but they main purpose was to breal the ennemy. So I would give a good attack, and lower defense (as the tank). Perhaps also blitz capability.
That's what I was planning on changing it to, and like you said, I had Cuirassier and Dragoon switched around.

- Dragoon : armed with rifle and sword. As they were more polyvalent, I would give them a attack slightly better than defense, and a bombard strenght with 0 range (so they can fire at incoming unit).
- Hussar : ZOC, 3 MP, low attack/defense (compared to other cavalry).
That's what I have currently, aside from the Dragoon having a bombard strength... do you think you should make the cavalry even stronger? I think the Dragoons were mainly meant for skirmishing. Their carbines weren't really designed for regular musket combat.

I think you have mixed cavalry and dragoon. And Cuirassier would be a better name, as dragoon and hussar are part of the cavalry.
You're right, somewhere within my making the units I switched those two. :p

For infantry :
- Line infantry : standard unit, with defense slighty better than attack.
- Light infantry : bombard strength, with 0 range. There purpose is to fight skirmishes, and reduce the strength of attacking troop before they are in contact.
- Grenadier / Guard : higher cost, but with better state, especially attacl. Big strong guys used to break ennemy unit.

I would drop the militia, as not so many countries really used militia.
Good call there. I'll get rid of the militia and make it Light Infantry instead. Also a good call with the 0 range bombard... that does outline the Light Infantry's role as well as it possibly could within the Civ 3 engine. And I'm changing the Imperial Guard unit to Grenadiers, and making the Imperial Guard something different.

Instead, you could have units specific to some civ :
- France will have a very strong imperial guard
- England could have highlander
- Prussia will have landwehr (low cost militia).
- Russia will get deadly cossacks.
- Austria : could be hungarian infantry ?
- Spain will have guerilla
I'll look into implimenting those, they're good ideas. I'll probably give Austria Freikorps, which are similar to Landwehr. The true 'unique' units will help give flavor to each nation, rather than having different strength versions of the same unit.

And finding uniform for light infantry will be a lot easier than for militia.
Very true. ;)

Jon Shafer
Oct 14, 2002, 04:52 PM
Something that you may know that I don't is which nations don't have the units I have listed for the current scenario roster. It would be useful in working on the complete unit stat list. ;)

Jon Shafer
Oct 15, 2002, 12:52 AM
3rd project update in the first post.

I've placed all of the nations navies on the map now. I'll give you the numbers that each has of each type of ship. If I don't name a unit, then it doesn't have any ships. The total warship count at the end doesn't include transports.

Ship list being redone.

Steph
Oct 15, 2002, 06:42 AM
About Grenadiers : dispite their name, they didn't use grenade at all. In fact, Grenadier stopped to use grenade at least 50 years before. Strangely, they kept for a long time on their uniform a small device that was used to carry the mesh used to lit the grenade, even if this device was empty.

At that time, Grenadier were big strong guys. Their role was to lead the other forces (and even sometimes to push them).

Steph
Oct 15, 2002, 02:07 PM
Comment about the different units and their availability to countries.

France : had all of them (and some more, especially for cavalry).
Prussia : all of them. Light Infantry ) jaeger. Also had Ulhan cavalry and landwehr (militia).
England : infantry : all + rifleman and highlander. Cavalry : no cuirassier
Austria : all of them + ulhan and landwehr, but no guard.
Russia : all of them + ulhan + cossacks

Not : almost all country had guard.

And I have picture for all these units.

I don't have a lot of info for minor countries

Jon Shafer
Oct 17, 2002, 12:18 AM
What's an Ulhan Steph? :confused: Not sure if I've heard of those before. Not sure if I want to go overboard on units (I've got quite a few for such a short period of warfare already), but if it's important enough to include I suppose I should look into adding it.

Thanks for the info on the countries. I think I'll leave the minors' rosters somewhat thinner than the majors, since that was most likely the case anyways (how often do you see the Papal States running around getting into wars? ;)).

Oh, and the 4th project update now in the first post.

Arne
Oct 17, 2002, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Trip
What's an Ulhan Steph? :confused: Not sure if I've heard of those before.I'm not Steph, but I think I can help too. As far I know, ulan is nearly somthing like a Hussar. The Ulan was originaly a polish lancer, I think. Later the most european armys formed their own lancer regiments, some of them dressed and equipped almost identically like the ulans.

Here is a russian pic called "Ulan from 1805".

http://195.208.39.120/borodino/Img/Ulan01b.jpg

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 04:59 AM
Yes, Ulhan is basically a lancer, from Polish origin I think (you have one, number 4, in the Polish unit picture).

There started to be used widely around 1790. The were included in the cavalry of Austria, Prussia, Poland, and Russia mainly.

Napoleon was impressed by the Polish Ulhan, so he decided to incorporate a new regiment in his Imperial Guard, called the "Polish lancer". Then he added another regiment, with a red uniform, known as "Dutch lancers" or "Red lancers".

I will post pictures of them latter, when I come back to France.

Jon Shafer
Oct 17, 2002, 08:33 AM
Any suggestions on stats for them that are different enough to warrant a new unit? :confused: I think I may have nearly exhausted every possibility for a unique cav unit within the same time period.

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 09:07 AM
No idea of a way to make them different...
Except if we get a bonus against cav flag in PTW (the lance being longer than the sword, it can give the Ulhan an advantage).

I thing the best would be to used them for Poland instead of Cuirassier, as Poland had no cuirassier. The Ulhan should have a good attack, but lower defense thant cuirassier.

Jon Shafer
Oct 17, 2002, 10:56 AM
I'll make it a Polish replacement for the Cuirassier then. I really don't have any clue how to add another kind of unit into the scenario at this point without drastically changing others.

Oh, and the naval unit list is up in the first post.

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:01 PM
Well, I did used my scanner this evening.

First, Sweden.

1- Light Dragoon, 1807
2- Line infantry 1815
3- Grenadier 1807
4- Artillery officer 1807
5 - Line infantry 1807
6 - Line infantry 1807

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:05 PM
1,2,3 - German Infantry, 1805
4 - Hungarian grenadier, 1805
5 - German officer

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:08 PM
1 - Hungarian Grenadier, 1807-1815
2 - Hungarian Infantry, 1806
3 - German Infantry, 1806
4 - German Grenadier, 1809-1815

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:12 PM
1- Hussar , 1806
2- Light Dragoon, 1812
3- Cuirassier, 1806
4- Ulhan, 1805

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:14 PM
1- Ulhan 1815
2 - Landwehr, 1809
3 - Cuirassier officer 1815
4 - Chasseur (light infantry) 1809
5 - Hussar 1813-1815

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:16 PM
1 - Grenadier,1805-1807
2 3 - Grenadier 1807-1808
3 - Grenadier 1808-1810, winter uniform

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:18 PM
1-2 : Grenadier1809-1811
3 : Muskteer, 1805
4 : Grenadier, 1812-1815
5 : Grenadier, summer uniform, 1812-1815
6 : Muskteter, winter uniform, 1812-1815

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:21 PM
1- Chasseur, 1805-1807
2 - Chasseur 1808-1809
3- Chasseur 1811
4- Chasseur officer 1811
5 - Marines, 1811
6-Grenadier drummer 1805-1807
7-Grenadier drummer 1811
8-Grenadier officer 1812-1815
9- Same, campaign uniform

I think 1 and 3 are especially interesting for early and late light infantry

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:25 PM
1-1803-1807
2 - 1812-1817
3 - 1812-1817
4 - 1809 - 1811

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:28 PM
1-2 : Foot service uniform
3- Same, starting 1808
4- Horse service, 1803-1806
5-1814

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:30 PM
1- Trumpet 1814-1815
2- 1813
3- Winter uniform 1816
4- 1803-1806
5- Trumpet 1809-1811
6- Officer 1813-1817

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:33 PM
1-2 Chasseur a cheval, 1813-1814
3-4 Ulhan 1809-1815

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:37 PM
1- Cuirassier 1813-1814
2- Knight Guard 1804-1816
3 - Horse guard 1804-1805
4- Hussar 1802-1809
5- Ulhan 1809-1811
6- Chasseur a cheval 1814-1816
7- Dragoon 1809-1802

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:41 PM
1- Guard Rifleman 18012-1815
2- Guard Foot artillery 1809
3- Guard Horse artillery 1814
4- Line Foot artillery, 1809
5- Line Horse artillery 1814
6 - Guard cossack, 1803-1808, winter "tchekmen"
7 - Don cossack 1815
8 - Ural cossack 18012
9- Kalmouk 1812

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 12:55 PM
1- Guard Rifleman 18012-1815
2- Guard Foot artillery 1809
3- Guard Horse artillery 1814
4- Line Foot artillery, 1809
5- Line Horse artillery 1814
6 - Guard cossack, 1803-1808, winter "tchekmen"
7 - Don cossack 1815
8 - Ural cossack 18012
9- Kalmouk 1812

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 01:10 PM
Austria had until 1809 64 infantry regiments. 5 were Wallon, 1 Italian, 1 Croat, 12 Hungarian and the others German.
Austria also had 17 bounder regiment, and 1 chasseur corps.
In 1812, Austria had 8 Cuirassiers regiments, 12 Hussar regiment 3 Ulhan regiments, 6 dragoon regiments, and 6 Chevauxleger.

In 1805, Russia had 13 Grenadiers regiments, 83 musketeers regiments and 26 chasseurs regiments.
Russian cavalry had 6 Cuirassiers regiments, 30 Dragoon regiments, 8 hussars regiments, 2 horse regiment (ulhan).

In 1812, there were 12 ulhan regiments, with the converion of 7 dragoon regiment to ulhan. 8 other Dragoon regiments were converted into chasseurs à cheval.

The Russian Imperial Guard had in 1811:
- 3 heavy infantry regiment
- 3 chasseur regiment
- 2 cuirassier regiments (a third un 1813)
- 1 hussar regiment
- 1 cossack regiment
- 1 ulhan regiment
-1 dragoon regiment
- 1 chasseur a cheval regiment (1814)

Russia also had 10 cossacks regiments

To finish, here are the russian names of cavalry (but I don't speak Russian, so I hope it's correct)
- cuirassier = kyrasi
- dragoon = dragounski
- hussar = gousari
- horse = konni
- chasseurs à cheval = konno iégurski

Steph
Oct 17, 2002, 01:14 PM
If you want to expand the scenario, it would be possible to get picture for late 18th century. With the circa 1805 and circa 1812-1815 pictures I have provide, that could give 3 upgrades.

Here is an example of late 18th century unit with a russian musketeer

Jon Shafer
Oct 17, 2002, 01:18 PM
I see that you've been busy. ;)

If you would, try and find more of the army sizes (like in your post before your last post) for as many countries as you can. That kind of info is quite helpful, and prevents me from having to dig it up. :)

Steph
Oct 19, 2002, 04:35 AM
Trip, how do you plan to model the armies? Make one unit for each regiment?
In that case, I can give you the name of all the regiments for major countries, and some of the minors.

Steph
Oct 19, 2002, 05:06 AM
Ok, here's the army list of that time, with the number of regiment. Note that the number may have changed during the war : I don't have figure for every year. I have given the date when I have it.

FRANCE. Total : Infantry: 223, Cavalry: 77
Infantry :
- Light infantry : 32 (1804)
- Line infantry : 112 (1806, 135 (1813).
No grenadier regiment, as grenadier were mixed in line infantry regiment.
Cavalry :
- Cuirassier : 12 (1806) 14 (1809)
- Carabiniers : 2
- Dragoon : 30
- Chasseurs : 15
- Chevau-léger lancer : 6 (created in 1811)
- Hussars : 10 (1806), 12(1810)
Guard infantry (number changed a lot during the war):
- Grenadiers : up to 50 in 1813!
- Chasseurs : up to 20
Guard cavalry:
- Horse grenadier : 2
- Chasseur : 1
- Chevaux leger lancer : 2 (3 in 1812 only )
- Dragoon : 1
- Scout : 3

ENGLAND. Total : Infantry : 107, Cavalry : 34
Infantry :
- Guard : 3
- Line : 96 ( 7 highlanders)
- Lignt infantry : 6 (1 highlanders)
- Riflemen : 2
Cavalry :
- Hussar : 0, 4(1811, created from light dragoon)
- Light dragoon : 19, 15 (1811)
- Life guard : 2
- Horse guard : 1
- Dragoon guard : 7
- Dragoon : 5

You already have Austria and Russia. I have few info about Prussia.

Steph
Oct 19, 2002, 11:03 AM
PRUSSIA total : Infantry : 60, Cavalry : 19 to 35
Infantry
- total 60 (no details, sorry)
Cavalry, 1792-1807
- Cuirassiers : 13
- Dragoon : 12
- Hussar : 10
Cavalry,1808-1812
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon: 6
- Hussars : 7
- Ulhan : 2
Cavalry, 1813-1815
- Guard : 4
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon : 8
- Hussars : 12
- Ulhan : 4

SPAIN :
Infantry :
- Line regiment : 35
- Light regiment : 12
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 8
- Line : 13

POLAND (Grand Duchy of Warsaw)
Infantry
- 22 regiments
Cavalry :
- Chasseur : 3
- Hussar : 2
- Cuirassiers : 1
- Ulhan : 14

BAVARIA
Infantry :
- line : 11
- light : 6
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 2 (0 from 1807)
- Chevau-leger : 4 (6 from 1807)
- Hussar : 2 (from 1813)
- Ulhan : 1 (from 1813)

Jon Shafer
Oct 19, 2002, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the info, that will be quite useful. :thumbs up smiley that CFC doesn't have: ;)

Originally posted by Steph
Trip, how do you plan to model the armies? Make one unit for each regiment?
In that case, I can give you the name of all the regiments for major countries, and some of the minors.
I'm not sure about that, since some of the larger countries had a massive amount of regiments, and replicating that exactly in the game would make the scenario unmanageable (I only had about 60 units for each side in my Civil War scenario). However, those numbers will allow me to get accurate strengths, so thanks for that. :)

Jon Shafer
Oct 19, 2002, 09:44 PM
Steph, I was wondering if you had any good pictures of Austrian Imperial Guard and Light Infantry? I'm having my unit guy do all of Austria, so it would be mighty useful. :)

Steph
Oct 20, 2002, 12:25 AM
Picture 4 of my latest Austria picture is light infantry.
Austria had no guard.

BTW, could we get preview of the units done by your unit guy?

I've tried to download it from Apolyton's forum, but I cannot see the FLC with FLICSTER. I can open it, but not see it.

And a question : do you want to keep civ specific colors? If I were you, I would forget about that, and use only historical colors. Civ colors could be used, but only for things like plumet or colar.

And isn't it a thumb up smiley? :goodjob:

Steph
Oct 20, 2002, 12:39 AM
From the apolyton forum :

Once you finish that, you can start on the Austrian (German) Grenadier unit (I figure I'd might as well get 1 country, Austria out of the way first). Make the jacket the civ-specific color again (and everything else the identical coloring present on the uniform, if possible), and don't forget the funky hat and the fact that he has no bayonet.


I don't agree with that NEVER use jacket of pants color as civ-specific color, for any unit. I can tell you what parts of the uniform changed with each regiment. This should be the only part of the uniform that can change with the civ. Austrian troops are always white, except Hungarian who have a blue trousers.

That civ-specific color part should be:
- The colar
- the shoulder strap
- the cuff
- the bottom of the jacket (look at my first Austrian picture. Figure number 1-3 have a brown specific color, figure 2-4 have blue).

If you want, I can help with your graphic guy. Give him my email, and ask him if he can send me some picture of his job, so I can comment.

LouLong
Oct 20, 2002, 02:37 AM
Impressive research, Steph.

Tu as tout trouve dans les ouvrages de Liliane et Fred Funken ?

Steph
Oct 20, 2002, 09:00 AM
LouLong, I will answer in English for the others. If you want to use French, send me an email or a PM.
The question was "Did I found everything in Liliane and Fred Funcken book?"

Answer is : almost.

All the pictures here come from this book. The army list also, except for Prussian Cavalry, where I've used an Osprey book, men-at-arms serie, "Prussian Cavalry of the Napoleonic wars", tome 1 (1792-1807), tome 2 (1807-1815).

Jon Shafer
Oct 20, 2002, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Steph
From the apolyton forum :

Once you finish that, you can start on the Austrian (German) Grenadier unit (I figure I'd might as well get 1 country, Austria out of the way first). Make the jacket the civ-specific color again (and everything else the identical coloring present on the uniform, if possible), and don't forget the funky hat and the fact that he has no bayonet.


I don't agree with that NEVER use jacket of pants color as civ-specific color, for any unit. I can tell you what parts of the uniform changed with each regiment. This should be the only part of the uniform that can change with the civ. Austrian troops are always white, except Hungarian who have a blue trousers.

That civ-specific color part should be:
- The colar
- the shoulder strap
- the cuff
- the bottom of the jacket (look at my first Austrian picture. Figure number 1-3 have a brown specific color, figure 2-4 have blue).

If you want, I can help with your graphic guy. Give him my email, and ask him if he can send me some picture of his job, so I can comment.
That's the way I had it before, but then I recognized that the main problem with that is that Austria's civ-specific color is white. Do you really think that every Austrian Line infantry unit should be entirely white, except for the musket, backpack and hat? While I'm highly encouraging historical accuracy in this scenario, I have to cut some corners for the sake of usability. I understand what you mean, but I really have no choice. If you have a suggestion for a better color for the collar, shoulder-strap, cuff and the bottom of the jacket as a more representative color for the Austrians, then let me know, but I really don't want the entire uniform to be white. I think the 'white-ness' of it already is what distinguishes it from most other countries uniforms (and that's mostly what made me make Austria white).

I'll give him your email, so you two can discuss some stuff, but make sure you run everything by me first... stuff like that may not be entirely accurate, but I have to work within constraints. :(

Steph
Oct 20, 2002, 11:10 AM
Oh, you mean that Austria civ-specific color is white, and as the unit will be used only by Austria, then you will get a white unit?
That's an interesting solution.
But I still thing civ -specific colors should be used for other part of the uniform. Because not all Austrian units are white (look at the light infantry).

My personnal choice would be to completly forgot civ specific colors for such unit : with the specific Austrian hat, nobody will mistake it with French or Russia!

Otherwise, you could use yellow (main color of Austrian flag)

Jon Shafer
Oct 21, 2002, 07:37 AM
You see the thing about that is how many other nations used Austrian troops? I'm willing to bet none, so under 'normal' circumstances the uniform will always look exactly how it did historically anyways. If someone else had been using Austrian troops (uniforms included), then it may have looked differently. ;)

Steph
Oct 21, 2002, 08:09 AM
Yes, I understand. But Austrian Line infantry is white, Light Infantry (Jaeger is Dark Grey), Hussar are red and blue, Dragoon green, etc.

So whatever the civ color you choose, you won't be able to find one that will go for all the units. That's why I suggest not to use civ specific color at all. Just ask the graphic guy to "copy" the picture.

Another good reason to use civ color for collar of cuff is that if someone one to use your units outside the scenario, for his own purpose, then he can do it, using other civ-specific color than the one you selected for the scenario, without spoiling everything.

Jon Shafer
Oct 21, 2002, 09:01 AM
You have a point on the different color uniforms part... I may have to think a bit about how to do those.

As far as being able to use them outside of the scenario, you have a point there as well, but Austria's color is white (no colors are changing at this point ;)), and making the cuffs/collar/etc. the civ color would again present the problem of a nearly entirely white uniform for this scenario (which, call me selfish, is all that really matters, IMO ;)), and if it had identical coloring historically with no civ-specific coloring at all, then it wouldn't be usable in other mods anyways.

Steph
Oct 21, 2002, 11:07 AM
And I know yellow was not a good idea of civ color...

I still thing no civ color would be the better solution. It will solve a lot of pb with other units fro other country to.

Steph
Nov 27, 2002, 12:19 AM
Hello Trip. We haven't get any update from quite a long time. What is the status of your project?

Yoda Power
Nov 27, 2002, 02:04 AM
yeah i was thinking of that too.

Yoda Power
Dec 15, 2002, 11:08 AM
Will this be completed i mean ever?

Steph
Dec 15, 2002, 12:33 PM
I don't know. Perhaps I gave them to much material with my pictures, and they had an heart attack when they saw the workload they had ahead?:eek:

Steph
Mar 19, 2003, 12:05 AM
Just bumping this thread for BAP

Procifica
Mar 19, 2003, 12:16 AM
And for me as well, whenever I get around to starting such a scenario. :)

BAP
Mar 19, 2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Steph
Just bumping this thread for BAP

Yeah, Trips idea helped motivate me to crank these units out, especially his idea to try and limit where certain units can be built. I wonder if CivIII programmers would be up for changing the game so non-tradable resources could be used as prerequisites for created special units, sort of the same way they can be used to limit the building of some buildings. Hopefully Procifica can come up with a good scenario.

Procifica
Mar 19, 2003, 06:11 AM
Well one way you could implement something like that is to not allow trades.

This scenario is no longer on my top list of priorities. My first priority is still getting my ACW scenario out of Beta. And I've also started a new adventurous project, of getting a few scores on the Hall of Fame. And, I'm getting alot of good, positive feedback on my Late Han Dynasty/Three Kingdoms Scenario (more support overall so far than this one, except for Steph and BAP in particular), that I think that one will be first. More likely though, when I get to the one, I'll start the other as well.

But I will need more information, and I haven't really had the time to dig more information up yet.

Jon Shafer
Mar 28, 2003, 12:43 PM
Hey guys, I'm back. :)

After a long break for college and other things, I saw BAP's units, and got a spur of inspiration (along with studying the 19th century a bit in my Western Civ class ;)).

I'm going to start work on the scenario again. Sorry for the delay. This project will be finished. ;)

LouLong
Mar 28, 2003, 02:24 PM
Steph, alleluja,

get to your scanner at once, Trip is back and wants some more ... :D

Jon Shafer
Mar 28, 2003, 03:17 PM
As long as BAP can keep the units coming, I'm not going to stop this time until the project is done. :D

I'm going to be making a Civ 3 version and a PTW version. Not yet sure what the differences will be, but this is so we can maximize who can play. :)

andrew510
Mar 29, 2003, 12:23 AM
light infantry: blitz, ZOC, defenseif bombard.

Jon Shafer
Mar 29, 2003, 12:30 AM
That seems like a pretty powerful unit andrew. :D

I've started a new thread for my scenario, since much of what's in this thread is just "clutter," and I'd like to have a new start for things.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48976

Steph
Mar 29, 2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by LouLong
Steph, alleluja,

get to your scanner at once, Trip is back and wants some more ... :D

Well, between Russia, Prussia, Austria, Sweden Spain and Portugal that I have already scanned, I think they have some work to do before I need to do others!

veezed
Dec 14, 2003, 03:50 PM
To finish, here are the russian names of cavalry (but I don't speak Russian, so I hope it's correct)
- cuirassier = kyrasi
- dragoon = dragounski
- hussar = gousari
- horse = konni
- chasseurs à cheval = konno iégurski [/B]

Hmmm...

cuirassier - Kirasiry (plural), Kirasir (singular horseman)
dragoon - Draguny, Dragun (Same as French really)
hussar - Gusary, Gusar
horse (something) like Horse Artillery - Konnyi, Konnaya (as in Konnaya Artilleriya)
Chasseurs - Konno-Yegerskie Voyska (formal name); Konnye Yegerya (the one you ought to use intead)

Uhlan - Ulany, Ulan
Cossack - Kazaki, Kazak (that's how it ought to be written and said as well. Ukranians say it Kozak, of course, but they're Ukranians))
Knight Guards (heavy imperial guard cav. abolished somewhere mid-19th century) Kavalergardy, Kavalergard.