Updated: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8033498&postcount=30

SO I am considering starting to try and MOD my BTS game once the RPCs are finished. I plan to start this by redoing traits to fit my own taste as well as add 2 that I think are missing.

My thinking is as follows

1) Level out the overpowered economic traits Financial and Philisophical

2) Add abilities, particularly the mid to late game.

3) Alter national wonder production per trait (certain traits get +100% for one NW)

SO here is my trial run at this (Just thinking, modding occurs further down the road).

Charismatic:
-25% XP
+1 happy, +1 happy with monument, +3 happy with broadcast tower (representing three late game wonders)
Double speed Monument, Colesium
+100% construction of Globe Theater

Industrious
+50% World Wonder PRoduction
Double Forge, Factory, Levee
+100% contruction of Iron Works

Imperialistic
+ 100% GG
-50% settler
double speed Stable, lighthouse
+100% WestPoint

ORG
-50% upkeep
Double Courthouse, MArket
+100% Forbidden Palace

Creative
+2 culture
Double theater, library, broadcast tower
+100% Hermitage

Spiritual
No anarchy
double temple
double missionaries
+100 Red Cross

Protective
Free CG and Drill to archery/gunpowder (same)
double Walls, castles, jails, bunkers, bomb shelters
+100% Mount Rushmore

Financial
+1 commerce per 2 commerce land tile
double bank, corporate executive
+100% Wall Street

Aggressive
free combat 1 to melee, gunpowder, Navy
Double barracks, drydocks
+100% Heroic Epic

Philosophical
+50% to GPP
double university, observatory, lab
+100% Oxford

Expansive
+2 health
+50% worker production
double granery, aqueduct, grocer, hospital
+100% National Park

Sea-Faring (NEW)
+1 commerce/2 commerce for sea/coast/lake tiles
Free flanking I to navy
double lighthouse, harbor, custome house
+100% Maori

Diplomatic/Espionage (NEW)
+1 ep per city
+1 extra diplomatic rating to all leaders with open borders
double Agency, Bureau, Spy
+100% National Epic

All very tentative and my own taste.

Any overt problems???

EDIT:
Changed PRO NW to Mt. Rushmore
Changed SEA NW to Maori
Changed ESP trait

maoa statue would go great for seafaring

maoa statue would go great for seafaring

Good point. Iam at lunch at work and thought I missed a few NWs.

Diplomatic/Espionage (NEW)
+25% ep
+1 diplomatic rating with all leaders
double Agebcy, Bureau, Spy
+100% National Epic

This seems incredibly powerful. +25% EP and an easier ability to stay peaceful with neighbors? Wow. Build the great wall, tech to alphabet and away you go! If you manage diplomacy well, you could probably avoid war most of the game and continuously steal techs/destroy improvements on precious metals/happy resources, and effectively dismember a cottage economy (with Nationalism)

I like your ideas for seafaring a lot.

EDIT: Since you are doing this for fun, let us know how this goes. I'd actually love to try an EE game with you diplo trait on a higher level.

It's such a global balance change that it's hard to picture how they'll interact. My suggestion is to try it, then make tweaks.

ORG and Diplomatic seem a bit powerful at first glance though...especially diplo (+1 global diplo is significant, and the 25% EP when no other leaders have access means if you go hard on EE you can easily match stronger beaker rates from turn 1.)

But you're doing this for fun, so balance isn't necessary. You'll have a very, very hard time making it balanced w/o massive testing anyway, so tweak it for fun ;). They at least look interesting.

Double missionaries may make spi extremely overpowering for cultural and AP wins, and also for diplo in general.

Having the same NW bonuses on more than one trait could lead to +200% super bonuses.

on seafaring, i think combat one would be more balanced as flanking opens the nav line which are by far the best naval promotion (at least as far as transport are concerned) and may be overpowering early.
Vassalage would mean Vikings could get nav 2 when built.

The viking ub is already strong enough currently on galleys this would be gamebreaking :eek:


Rest seem fine to me

I want to play as diplomatic/financial. Pump up that slider and get 25% more. EE is my favorite and that just sounds like so much fun.

Regarding ESP: I thought of this and looked at castles. How much do they add to espionage at +25%? Helps but not overpowered, ditto nationhood. Also in the very early game the capital would have 5 ep versus 4, helpful but not overpowered I think. The diplomatic bonus may be overpowered, but perhaps adding upon opebn borders, thus a +3 open borders diplo??? This way all eladers are not immediately pleased.

Regarding the NW, right now only ESP and PHIL share one NW, the NE. Simple, no leader will have both traits!

Regarding Vikings: that's assuming Ragnar is AGG/SEA. And yes he will be :D Seriously crazily overpowered Viking Warships with a fast drydocks are exactly what I would look for!

Regarding SEA flanking I. Produces a very strong navy which is the point of the trait.

Regarding SPI. Had trouble finding a good help for the mid-late game, so this was the best (and we cannot abuse OR civic). Alternatively I thought of being able to build monestaries all game. Also teh SPI NW stinks.

I always wished you could build espionage like you can wealth, culture, and research.

Regarding ESP: I thought of this and looked at castles. How much do they add to espionage at +25%? Helps but not overpowered, ditto nationhood. Also in the very early game the capital would have 5 ep versus 4, helpful but not overpowered I think. The diplomatic bonus may be overpowered, but perhaps adding upon opebn borders, thus a +3 open borders diplo??? This way all eladers are not immediately pleased.

The issue is the time frame that the advantage comes. You have an effect that applies commerce as well as the library, for free, in every city, that the AI has no means of countering w/o the same trait. Because EP spending and amount accrued affect the costs of missions, you can really get ridiculously favorable tech steals by selling out on EP...especially if you get gwall and farm a couple gspies. Each gspy is immediately worth 15 EP now, so just farming 2 is basically all the research you need for a long time when combined w/ courthouses :lol:. Using one for SY becomes pretty appealing too.

I always wished you could build espionage like you can wealth, culture, and research.

Probably a balance issue, although you can approximate it with a SY bur capitol and building wealth to run the slider on EP through that commerce.

Maybe start of w/ +10% ESP instead of +25% ESP. That wouldn't be as game breaking imo.

EDIT: or maybe a -5% to -10% additional passive reduction only after the spy has been stationary for 5 turns only. Which is basically the same as +10% ESP but harder to use and won't make the passive espionage bonuses so easy to get like see research, see demo, etc.

The issue is the time frame that the advantage comes. You have an effect that applies commerce as well as the library, for free, in every city, that the AI has no means of countering w/o the same trait. Because EP spending and amount accrued affect the costs of missions, you can really get ridiculously favorable tech steals by selling out on EP...especially if you get gwall and farm a couple gspies. Each gspy is immediately worth 15 EP now, so just farming 2 is basically all the research you need for a long time when combined w/ courthouses :lol:. Using one for SY becomes pretty appealing too.



Probably a balance issue, although you can approximate it with a SY bur capitol and building wealth to run the slider on EP through that commerce.

Very good points. The other ep possibility is +1 or 2 ep/city, like the CRE and EXP traits. It spreads out the eps but give the capital that 5 ep at the beginning. More cities means more gold slider and inhibits scaling up the espionage slider. Another possibility is +2 eps per barracks. Or a -25% ep cost to each espionage mission. Or +25% chance of espionage mission success. Either way, there needs to be something "Sneaky" about the trait.

Very good points. The other ep possibility is +1 or 2 ep/city, like the CRE and EXP traits. It spreads out the eps but give the capital that 5 ep at the beginning. More cities means more gold slider and inhibits scaling up the espionage slider. Another possibility is +2 eps per barracks. Or a -25% ep cost to each espionage mission. Or +25% chance of espionage mission success. Either way, there needs to be something "Sneaky" about the trait.

These ideas I like a little better.

While the 25% boost to just the capital in the beginning isn't all that OP (5 instead of 4), if you build GW and settle that GSpy, now you're looking at 20EP instead of 16. After 20 turns early game, that's 80 EP more which will just keep increasing. Combined with another GSpy (thinking you'd go for an EE with this trait) and a few courthouses, you'll really be a 'sneaky' SoB. But once you hit up that slider (in a cottage heavy economy), that's when that 25% becomes game breaking.

These ideas I like a little better.

While the 25% boost to just the capital in the beginning isn't all that OP (5 instead of 4), if you build GW and settle that GSpy, now you're looking at 20EP instead of 16. After 20 turns early game, that's 80 EP more which will just keep increasing. Combined with another GSpy (thinking you'd go for an EE with this trait) and a few courthouses, you'll really be a 'sneaky' SoB. But once you hit up that slider (in a cottage heavy economy), that's when that 25% becomes game breaking.

I went to 1 ep per city. However, always remember that the EE game depends on how well your rivals tech. Being stuck with a bunch of dumb thugs is going to make most of the ESP trait ineffective

I went to 1 ep per city. However, always remember that the EE game depends on how well your rivals tech. Being stuck with a bunch of dumb thugs is going to make most of the ESP trait ineffective

Not necessarily. Utilizing a proper EE, if you have tech-backwards neighbors, all the better for you IMO. Use those massive EP to destroy metal/horse/elephant improvements constantly while building up your army. Only having bows is paralyzing pre-gunpowder.

Who would be the Secretive/Espionage-ing/Diplomatic leader? Tokugawa, Mao, Stalin...anyone else?

I dont see how Fin has been weakened in realitive power. FIN/ORG Darius sounds like a ridiculus economy for a very large empire.

I like the synergy of discounted buildings for Chr/Creative (who is that anyway?).

I dont like National Epic for Espionage Trait just for roleplay reasons, I think West Point fits better.

Imperilistic is weak late game, give them cheaper airports rather than ORG since airpower replaces horsepower in the game.

Financial hasn't been chaned, has it?
CreeDakota: there is no Cre/Cha leader

Financial suggestions:
+1 :commerce: on tiles with 3 :commerce: or higher (you need riverside hamlets, gold/silver/gems, or villages to trigger this)
+100% production of Wall Street

Seafaring suggestions:
+1 trade route per city
+2 :commerce: per trade route
Free Flanking 1 promotion for all Naval Units

Aggressive suggestions:
Free Combat I promotion for all Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder units
+50% :hammers: for Barracks, Drydock
+100% production of Heroic Epic

Who would be the Secretive/Espionage-ing/Diplomatic leader? Tokugawa, Mao, Stalin...anyone else?

Espionage leaders I am considering

Stalin, drop Agressive
Mao, drop expansive
Gilgamesh (synergy there) drop protective
DeGaulle, drop Industrious

Seafaring

Ragnar (drop Financial
Victori (Drop Imperialistic)
Hannibal (Drop Financial)
Portugal (drop Imp)
Dutch (drop Creative)

Just toying with these ideas. Right now I seam to have trouble learning to mod at teh east stuff. Using a tuitorial I cann mod a warrior from 2 strength to 100!:eek:

I dont see how Fin has been weakened in realitive power. FIN/ORG Darius sounds like a ridiculus economy for a very large empire.

I like the synergy of discounted buildings for Chr/Creative (who is that anyway?).

I dont like National Epic for Espionage Trait just for roleplay reasons, I think West Point fits better.

Imperilistic is weak late game, give them cheaper airports rather than ORG since airpower replaces horsepower in the game.

Financial eladers get 2 commerce from any sea tiles. They only get the bonus for land commerce.

Darius I may change, I never liked a FIN/ORG leader anyway.

There is not CHR/CRE leader. Maybe there should be.

I agree on IMP and will add airports. ORG maybe get's supermarkets.

Financial hasn't been chaned, has it?
CreeDakota: there is no Cre/Cha leader

Financial suggestions:
+1 :commerce: on tiles with 3 :commerce: or higher (you need riverside hamlets, gold/silver/gems, or villages to trigger this)
+100% production of Wall Street

Seafaring suggestions:
+1 trade route per city
+2 :commerce: per trade route
Free Flanking 1 promotion for all Naval Units

Aggressive suggestions:
Free Combat I promotion for all Melee, Mounted, Gunpowder units
+50% :hammers: for Barracks, Drydock
+100% production of Heroic Epic

Financial benefit is only for land comemrce in MAD's world. I like adding a cheap building to Financial

Seafaring splits the financial.

Agressive is too strong with mounted promotion.

Thanks all for suggestions! At this rate of my modding learning curve I should get this done by the time CIV 7 comes out!

By the way madders out there, does the BUG mod interfere with creating or running a mod???

I wan't to try that mod with the Vikings on an archipelago map :D
A beeline to Feudalism for Vassalage, 4 move galleys and amhipious axes/swords would be awesome. :cool:

By the way madders out there, does the BUG mod interfere with creating or running a mod???

If all your doing is XML modding (all changes you propose here can be done this way) I know using BUG won't stop your creating, and I can't see any way it would cause a problem with other modding methods either.
The overwhelming majority of mods can actually be merged to work with with BUG easily. Even if it doesn't work you can always run it instead of BUG.

SO I am considering starting to try and MOD my BTS game once the RPCs are finished. I plan to start this by redoing traits to fit my own taste as well as add 2 that I think are missing.

My thinking is as follows

1) Level out the overpowered economic traits Financial and Philisophical

2) Add abilities, particularly the mid to late game.

3) Alter national wonder production per trait (certain traits get +100% for one NW)

SO here is my trial run at this (Just thinking, modding occurs further down the road).

Charismatic:
-25% XP
+1 happy, +1 happy with monument, +3 happy with broadcast tower (representing three late game wonders)
Double speed Monument, Colosseum
+100% construction of Globe Theater

Industrious
+50% World Wonder Production
Double Forge, Factory, Levee
+100% contruction of Iron Works

Imperialistic
-50% settler
-25% maintenance cost from number of cities CHANGED
-10% reduced hammers for all units CHANGED
Double Jail, Airport CHANGED
+100% Forbidden Palace CHANGED

Reasoning What does imperialistic reflect? It should reflect the tendency to found and then to maintain a vast empire that could very well stretch the world. In my opinion the reduction in city maintenance cost from number of cities would reflect this well and the slight reduction in unit production costs would keep the trait viable throughout the game. Furthermore, the faster production times for Jail and Airport would be later benefits. I also removed the Great General emergence bonus since I don't feel it fits. See aggressive and protective.

Organized
-50% civic upkeep
Double Courthouse, Aqueduct, Public Transportation CHANGED
+100% Oxford

Reasoning Organized should represent civic services and as such beyond law and order I consider public sanitation and transportation logical choices.

Creative
+2 culture
Double theater, library, broadcast tower
+100% Hermitage

Spiritual
No anarchy
double temple
double missionaries WITH a monestary
+100 Red Cross

Protective
Free CG and Drill to archery/gunpowder (same)
double Walls, Castles, Bunkers, Bomb Shelters
Double GG Experience when fighting inside cultural borders CHANGED
+100% Mount Rushmore

ReasoningI feel that protective civs would be better off gaining more experience towards great generals when fighting inside their cultural borders - just like Great Wall.


Financial
+1 commerce per 2 commerce land tile
Double Market, Bank, Corporate Executive
+100% Wall Street

Agressive
free combat 1 to melee, gunpowder, Siege
Double Barracks CHANGED
Double GG Emergence when fighting outside your cultural borders CHANGED
+100% Heroic Epic

Reasoning Drydock is better suited for Seafaring and I feel that great generals should come from aggressive rather than imperialistic. Since the bonus only applies outside your own cultural borders it also represents the "aggressive" feature represented here. Furthermore, the combat 1 for siege, while it's not a big deal it would still represent aggressive warfare since siege is only used offensively.

Philosophical
+50% to GPP
double Monastery, University CHANGED
+100% National Epic

Reasoning Where does philosophy come from? It comes from scholars. At the lack of a school or an academy which you can build, I do believe that religions monasteries should represent philosophy since a lot of ideals have historically spurred from them. Furthermore University seems like a logical choice since it's a place of learning.

Expansive
+2 health
+50% worker production
double Granary, Grocer, Hospital, Recycling Plant CHANGED <- Minor tweak
+100% National Park

Seafaring (NEW)
+2 commerce for water tiles
Naval units start with Combat I, Flanking I
double Lighthouse, Harbor, Customs House, Drydock CHANGED
+100% Moai Statues

Reasoning Drydock belongs with Seafaring rather than Agressive, so do naval bonuses.

Secretive (NEW) CHANGED <- formerly Diplomatic/Espionage
+2 ep from Barracks, CourthouseCHANGED
AI forgets past transgressions twice as fast CHANGED
Increased chance to capture enemy spies CHANGED
Automatically gain knowledge of technologies known by 5 (depending on mapsize, this is Standard) other civilizations CHANGED
Double Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, Spy

Reasoning Does this seem overpowered? I don't really know, since I don't use espionage at all. I just feel like that whenever I do try to play it, it goes wrong on so many ways. Either way, I feel like perhaps these abilities would make the trait interesting and if someone like Tokugawa would be Secretive, atleast with the fact that he'd gain knowledge of techs known by 5 others would certainly help his game.



That's how I'd tweak them. Just my personal opinions - maybe you can use some of them.

Industrious
+50% World Wonder PRoduction
Double Forge, Factory, Levee
+100% contruction of Iron Works


This looks way too powerful, especially compared with Protective and Creative (Really, who wants +100% on Hermitage?).

+100% on Iron Works is a huge boost, and adding Levees to the mix sent it over the top of what's balanced IMO.

I'd rather split the Financial trait in two, one for gold, the other for science. These two traits could be Financial (same name, but completely different effect, for example giving +15% gold, and +100% production for banks) and Scientific (analogue for science and universities).

This looks way too powerful, especially compared with Protective and Creative (Really, who wants +100% on Hermitage?).

+100% on Iron Works is a huge boost, and adding Levees to the mix sent it over the top of what's balanced IMO.

I plat at emperor alot and find Industrious lacking after metal casting as you cannot get all that many wonders all the time. Adding the levee and factory I think balance out the trait and removing the 50% National Wonder production bonus well ofsets the high IronWorks bonus.

Protecitve has double speed on 5 buildings, that's enough!

I agree on Creative and need a mid-level boost here. It's way powerful early but needs more than broadcast towers late.

I'd rather split the Financial trait in two, one for gold, the other for science. These two traits could be Financial (same name, but completely different effect, for example giving +15% gold, and +100% production for banks) and Scientific (analogue for science and universities).

Phil has become more science with the fast Obs/Lab and reduced GPP prouction. The faster OXford helps.

I still like the commerce bonus for financial as you have to work the land smartly rather than a flat gold bonus.

I gotta give the OP a big compliment--I have never seen the idea of each trait granting +100% production to a single national wonder before, and I really like it. I think I might borrow this idea. :D

Adding +2 BASE :commerce: and an extra trade route in every single city is excessively dangerous ;). We might start seeing 1100's AD infantry like Snaaty showed us before BTS nerfed trade routes.

So after learing teh art of modding XMLs I have actually managed to alter all the traits plus add the 2 New ones. A very interesting experience as some things were very easy (such as speed of national wonders) while others extremely difficult (figuring the commerce of SeaFaring). Still an entertaining exercise and I plan to play these when I have the time.

Right now I ask for a critical evaluation of how balanced these traits are. Obviously things like Philosophical still favors research while Agressive, well :trouble:

Charismatic:
-25% XP
+1 happy, +1 happy with monument, +1 happy with Colloseum, +1 happy with broadcast tower
Double speed Braodcast Tower, Colesium
+100% construction of Globe Theater

Industrious
+1 hammer per 4 hammer tile
+25% World Wonder Production (AND ONLY WORLD WONDERS)
Double Forge, Factory, levee
+100% contruction of Iron Works

Imperialistic
+ 100% GG
+50% settler production
double speed Stable, Airport
+100% WestPoint

ORG
-50% upkeep
Double Courthouse, Market, Public Transportation
+100% Forbidden Palace

Creative
+2 culture
Double theater, library
+50% production to Cathedrals
+100% Hermitage

Spiritual
No anarchy
double temple, double missionaries
+100 Red Cross

Protective
+100% Great General Production within Cultural borders (A very neat, already set feature in the traitsfile but apparently not used).
Free CG and Drill to archery/gunpowder (same)
double Walls, castles, bunkers, bomb shelters
+100% Mount Rushmore

Financial
+1 commerce per 3 commerce tile (thus seatiles do not provide a financial benefit unless you have the Colossus)
double bank, corporate executives
+100% Wall Street

Aggressive
free combat 1 to melee, gunpowder, Naval
Double barracks, drydocks
+100% Heroic Epic

Philosophical
+2 beakers per city
+50% to GPP
double university, observatory, lab
+100% Oxford

Expansive
+2 health
+50% worker production
double granery, aqueduct, grocer, Hospital (no culture bonus)
+100% National Park

Sea-Faring (NEW)
50% increase in final trade route yield (after modifiers)
Free flanking I to navy
double lighthouse, harbor, custom house
+100% Maori

Secrative (NEW)
+1 food/5 food tile
+1 ep per city
double Jail, Agency, Bureau, Spy
+100% National Epic

My goal was to weaken Fin/Phil/ORG early games and strengthen them later

I boosted the weaker IMP, PROT, EXP traits

Also, some of the National Wonders doubles speed add alot of benefit to some traits more than others.

There is some exceptional Synergy for certain leaders. Genghis has a great war-machine with fast Gers. And SeaFaring/Agressive Ragnar is a monster on teh OCean, as Vikings should be.

Looking for some honest opinions on the balancing of this.

I will also post a list of the leaders with my preferred trait combos which are certainly open for discussion.

Here are how I plan to adjust the leaders at the moment (SEA=SeaFaring and SEC=Secrative)

FDR ORG/IND (same)
Washington CHA/EXP (same)
Lincoln CHA/PHI (same)
Genghis AGG/IMP (same)
Kublai AGG/CRE (same)
Shaka AGG/EXP (Same)
Cathy IMP/CRE (same)
Peter SEC/Phi (NEW)
Stalin AGG/SEC (NEW)
Victoria SEA/FIN (New)
Liz PHI/FIN (same)
Churchill (PRO/CHA (same)
Agustus IND/IMP (same)
Julius ORG/IMP (same)
Charlemagne PRO/IMP (same)
Justinian SEA/IMP (NEW)
Sal SPI/PRO (same)
Hatty SPI/CRE (Same)
Ramesses IND/SPI (same)
Mansa SPI/FIn (Same)
Zara CRE/ORG (same)
MONTY AGG/SPI (same)
Hyuna IND/Fin (same)
Sitting Bull PRO/EXP (changed but not new civics)
Pacal EXP/Fin (same)
Qin IND/PRO (same)
Mao SEC/PRO (NEW)
Asoka SPI/ORG (same)
Gandi SPI/PHI (same)
Sury SEC/EXP (NEW)
Darius SEA/FIN (NEW)
Cy IMP/CHA (same)
Mehmed ORG/EXP (same)
Suliman IMP/PHI (same)
Napolean CHA/ORG (same)
DeGaulle SEC/IND (NEW)
Lou IND/CRE (same)
Ragnar SEA/AGG (NEW)
Toku PRO/AGG (same)
Issabella SPI/SEA (NEW)
Jaoa SEA/EXP (NEW)
Hammarabi SEC/ORG (NEW)
Glgamesh SEC/CRE (NEW)
Alexander SEA/PHI (NEW)
Pericles CRE/PHI (same)
Hannibal SEA/CHA (NEW)
Boudica AGG/CHA (same)
Brennus SEC/CHA (NEW)
Willem SEA/CRE (NEW)
Bismark IND/EXP (same)
Fred ORG/PHI (same)
Wang PRO/FIN (same)

My plan is NOT have any doubles or trait combos and spread each trait out (about 8 leaders per trait).

Please let know if you see any real bad combos or have better suggestions!

Thanks

First off, what is SEC? (Secretive???)
Second, nice job with the balancing. I was looking forever for a IND/SEA leader. GLH itself would produce a free village!

If you put this up for download I'll definitely get it!

Does this mean you're going to go through and redo all the RPC challenges with the new traits? :D

I think Charismatic is too strong. Adding extra happy with the Coliseum gives really big happy caps early with only a few (cheap) buildings. It's already strong early game.

Charlemagne will be a tough turtle to crack. +150% GG inside borders (do you still have the default +100% inside cultural borders that comes with the game?). Tough.

I still think Industrious could use a boost. I know boosting Ironworks is nice, but something else to help it out. Is giving +1 hammer to workshops too strong? The wonder bonus and forge bonus are big early game traits, and giving a hammer boost to workshops would certainly make it a late game menace.

Thinking of philosophic, I think you weakened it too much. The GPP bonus is good early, but only giving it cheap observatories and labs late I'm not sure balances it. Maybe having an observatory give a free specialist? That would certainly be a nice boost in the late game.

Imp and Seafaring both have lighthouse bonuses. What about a change for Imperialist to instead of the lighthouse bonus, could you give it like -50% colony maintenance? That would certainly fit the Imperialist stance of setting up shop in every corner of the world.

Just some late night thoughts.

Charismatic - Remove double monuments. It would be rediculous because of gold overflow. +70 :gold: every time you make a monument? Not necessary. Charismatic is amazing anyway.

Industrious - This has always been one of the weaker traits...

Financial - double banks AND wall street?? The commerce bonus change wouldnt make a difference on land anyway. Shaving so many turns off getting wall street may be overkill.

Philosophical - This is way too much of a nerf. +50% GPP isn't 50% more GP, it's closer 20%.

Seafaring - I have a feeling this trait is going to be completely rediculous. I think financial is supposed to be seafaring, and it does a fine job of that.

Protective is still terrible, and diplomatic seems underpowered. It's been suggested to give extra EP to protective.

Protective: fortified units can add up defensive bonus for 1 extra turn, so up to +30% in 6 turns. It requires to edit SDK, but it's very simple.

Protective: fortified units can add up defensive bonus for 1 extra turn, so up to +30% in 6 turns. It requires to edit SDK, but it's very simple.

Isn't that just an XML change? It's something like MAX_FORTIFY_TURNS in Globaldefines.

I'll definately try this out once you release it! My thoughts and ideas, bear in mind i'm a prince level player :)

Charismatic - Agree with Jamuka, remove double monuments

Industrious - Seems ok

Imperialistic - I like the idea JFleme posted above, but without the -10% for all units
Otherwise, I think something extra late game is needed

Organized - With no cheap factories, something extra needed late game.
How about a benefit to do with drafting: Infantry takes off only 1 pop to draft (too strong? :) ), can draft at lower population (size 5?), reduced draft unhappiness?

Creative - Seems ok

Spiritual - Double missionaries seems too strong to me.
Make it conditional, say double missionaries with monastary and org rel. How about double monastaries?

Protective - Seems ok, but maybe something extra is still needed. One idea: worker double speed building of forts?

Financial - Seems ok

Agressive - Seems ok. What about an extra promotion for aircraft?

Philosophical - Agree with Jamuka that 50% GPP seems like a big nerf, needs something to compensate. What about a benefit like +10% science modifier in all cities? But that might be too strong...

Expansive - Maybe needs a cheap building or something else late game...

Sea Faring - Looks super strong for any map with water, guess that is the point :)

Espionage - No opinion, see how it plays i guess.

This will affect every traits. If you want this only to be applied for protective leaders, you should change the SDK (function CvUnit.setFortifyTurns).

This will affect every traits. If you want this only to be applied for protective leaders, you should change the SDK (function CvUnit.setFortifyTurns).

Oh yes, you're absolutely right.

First off, what is SEC? (Secretive???)
Second, nice job with the balancing. I was looking forever for a IND/SEA leader. GLH itself would produce a free village!

If you put this up for download I'll definitely get it!

SEC is Secrative. I deliberately avoided the IND/SEA combo because I felt it was too abusive of teh Great LightHouse.

Once I work out the bugs, test it out, tinker a bit, maybe alter some buildings/military a tad, I probably will post it. I also need to find out where to post it and posting Mod etiiquette.

Like my early idea of the RPCs, I plan to show how easy Modding can be. You all know I am no computer genius here, and certainly no programmer.

I think I will call it "Mad's World"

Does this mean you're going to go through and redo all the RPC challenges with the new traits? :D

Perhaps something like that. The RPC series will definitely end. But fear not I will be still posting things although not with the same frequency (so I say now). I have considered world building certain RPC-type situations as open challenges though, a chance for me to watch the world squirm a bit!:D

I think Charismatic is too strong. Adding extra happy with the Coliseum gives really big happy caps early with only a few (cheap) buildings. It's already strong early game.



I always felt CHA was a well-balanced, medium trait. But perhaps the double speed Monument is too much. I think I will make the Braodcast double instead and alter the CRE trait a bit



Charlemagne will be a tough turtle to crack. +150% GG inside borders (do you still have the default +100% inside cultural borders that comes with the game?). Tough.



AT first I was confused, then I realized the IMP/PRO synergy here. Still, may not be that overpowered, certainly interesting. I like the addition to PRO but perhaps I need to reevaluate Charles' trait combos here. Good Point.



I still think Industrious could use a boost. I know boosting Ironworks is nice, but something else to help it out. Is giving +1 hammer to workshops too strong? The wonder bonus and forge bonus are big early game traits, and giving a hammer boost to workshops would certainly make it a late game menace.



After I did everything I sort of agree, IND needs just a tad more. Two chocies I see: 1) Add a free hammer or two to IND per city, similar to the CRE or SEC trait or 2) double speed of the levee thus discounting all of those hammer modifying buildings.

Alternatively, I have considered nixing the entire Wonder bonus, making World Wonders a Free for all but Giving IND a base +2 hammers/city or a 10% production boost. However, Spamming wonders with IND is a "FUN" part of the game and I am not sure I want to see that go.




Thinking of philosophic, I think you weakened it too much. The GPP bonus is good early, but only giving it cheap observatories and labs late I'm not sure balances it. Maybe having an observatory give a free specialist? That would certainly be a nice boost in the late game.



Perhaps. PHIL got a big boost in BTS with espionage (GSpies) and Corps. The observatory with a free specialist sounds intriguing but as I understand the TRAIT XML not easy to do (of course I am open to suggestions on HOW to do it). Perhaps what may be the best fix is to add 1 or 2 free beakers per city (Like CRE and SEC) and remove the discount Lab (which would be a BIG boost to Peter and his UB). I very much like lowering teh GP meter to 50%, so that likely stays.

Also remeber the discount on OXFORD, one of the strongest National Wonders.



Imp and Seafaring both have lighthouse bonuses. What about a change for Imperialist to instead of the lighthouse bonus, could you give it like -50% colony maintenance? That would certainly fit the Imperialist stance of setting up shop in every corner of the world.

Just some late night thoughts.

Typo on my part. IMP get's discoutned Airports. My thinking is both buildings that offer extra XP for FAST moving Military (Airforce and Mounted) are doubled by IMP. The -50% colony benefit sounds good to me except I percieve it's very difficult to do in XML only. Again I am open to suggestions/advice on how to do this in XML.

After I did everything I sort of agree, IND needs just a tad more. Two chocies I see: 1) Add a free hammer or two to IND per city, similar to the CRE or SEC trait or 2) double speed of the levee thus discounting all of those hammer modifying buildings.

Alternatively, I have considered nixing the entire Wonder bonus, making World Wonders a Free for all but Giving IND a base +2 hammers/city or a 10% production boost. However, Spamming wonders with IND is a "FUN" part of the game and I am not sure I want to see that go.


I'd give
+2:hammers: for forges and factories
+25% prod for wonders (all type)

Charismatic - Remove double monuments. It would be rediculous because of gold overflow. +70 :gold: every time you make a monument? Not necessary. Charismatic is amazing anyway.



Seams to be a popular opinion on the discounted buildings and CHA. The overflow is somethign I did not consider, and you are definitely right there (and we thought PRO walls were bad!). So the Monument is NOT discoutned anymore and I will switch it to Broadcast Tower being discoutned (and alter CRE).


Industrious - This has always been one of the weaker traits...



I agree, although it is a FUN trat as it is. Still it either needs a littel more pop than what I have, or a rewrite to add pure hammers (either free like CRE culture, or adding to existing hammers like Financial and commerce) or a percentage boost while eliminating teh Wonder Bonus. I do find IND lacking at higher levels as it is.



Financial - double banks AND wall street?? The commerce bonus change wouldnt make a difference on land anyway. Shaving so many turns off getting wall street may be overkill.



Yeah, but I nerfed Financial good here and banking/corporation are mid-game techs. I tell you what, there will be very few games when I play Financial here that I run State Property, Capitalism rules!!! Liz the Corporation Queen!

BAsically I wanted to turn Financial from a dominating early tech game to a more powerful as the game goes along.



Philosophical - This is way too much of a nerf. +50% GPP isn't 50% more GP, it's closer 20%.



As I discussed in a reply before this, I sort of agree and need to readjust. Perhaps a free 1 0r 2 beakers per city (similar to CRE) may do teh trick and certainly shift PHIL to a beaker trait while Financial is shifted to a GOLD trait. Also PHI got too much of a boost in BTS with espionage and corps.



Seafaring - I have a feeling this trait is going to be completely rediculous. I think financial is supposed to be seafaring, and it does a fine job of that.



Time will tell on this. I like teh idea of a trait focusing on improving Trade Routes and I think this does it. Also teh Trade Route modification at least helps when SEA is landlocked or with massively large continents. I play alot of Big/Little maps and occasionally get massive, Pangea type maps.

I also think economics is a definitely beeline for this trait for cheap Custom Houses which are more devastating with teh double intial trade yield. By teh way, the trade route bonuc can be dropped to maybe 50%. At worse I can ditch the free Naval promotion but I sort of like that (especially killer Vikign Navies).



Protective is still terrible, and diplomatic seems underpowered. It's been suggested to give extra EP to protective.

I think I gave PRO a nice boost! Faster GG during defensive war means higher promotions early on. At first I had cheap jails but thought it too powerful.

I like the Diplomatic Trait (SECRATIVE, please, SECRATIVE) and the added ep is VERY powerful if you use espionage as it whould be in BTS. Those SPY buildings is discoutns as very expensive to build also. I knwo your screwed with isolation, but hey, so is the Aggresive trait.

I'd give
+2:hammers: for forges and factories
+25% prod for wonders (all type)

As odd as it sounds, using XML to add hammers to a building for a specific trait is not that easy. So for not it goes directly to the city.

I do like your idea of perhaps finding a middle road here. 25% boost to World Wonders (I am way too proud of my idea to spread out the national Wonder bonus') and perhaps add 1 hammer per city, or +1 hammer per 4 hammer tile.

Protective: fortified units can add up defensive bonus for 1 extra turn, so up to +30% in 6 turns. It requires to edit SDK, but it's very simple.

I read alot of Modding Tuitorials, and editting SDK is probably something I am NOT doing anytime too soon. However, doubling fortification is a nice idea, but still susceptible to seige weapons. Also early game PRO AIs with this are going to be an absolute pain (Hello Sitting Bull)

Isn't that just an XML change? It's something like MAX_FORTIFY_TURNS in Globaldefines.

I have not seen teh XML, but can it be directly related to a trait??? That was the problem I found, things like extra trait routes, having trait building give bonus's (Like SEA lighthouse granting an extra commerce to sea tiles) are not very easy and need SDK or Python modding.

I'll definately try this out once you release it! My thoughts and ideas, bear in mind i'm a prince level player :)

Charismatic - Agree with Jamuka, remove double monuments



Yeah god's! Double Monuments are gone!



Industrious - Seems ok



Nah, it does need a boost or tweak.



Imperialistic - I like the idea JFleme posted above, but without the -10% for all units
Otherwise, I think something extra late game is needed



Late game is the airport, I corrected my typo.



Organized - With no cheap factories, something extra needed late game.
How about a benefit to do with drafting: Infantry takes off only 1 pop to draft (too strong? :) ), can draft at lower population (size 5?), reduced draft unhappiness?




Modding the draft is beyond my abilites at the moment.

I agree it got a little nerfed, the later market offsets the missing early lighthouse and then some. Some earlier mentioned Public Transportation which seams like an ORG thing to do (However, I do like in NY and our transit system is, well I won't go there) , so I think I'll add that. Jails were also mentioned, perhaps jails and Public Transportation and take the market out.



Creative - Seems ok



With Broadcast Towers going to CHA, I need something else here. Is cathedrals too overpowered here??? Perhaps a 50% boost to cathedrals??? I would certainly like to see CRE emphasize a culture victory tract instead of a Scientific (cheap libraries) or warring/REX (border pops) trait.



Spiritual - Double missionaries seems too strong to me.
Make it conditional, say double missionaries with monastary and org rel. How about double monastaries?



SPI took a nerf with BTS and needs to be boosted I think. I originally wanted to make it conditional but that's too difficult to mod in XML. Monestaries are pretty cheap already for what they do, but I may consider a double bonus to them. Still, fast religion spread seams a SPI thing to do (I can here Isyy, Sal, and Charles all cheering already).



Protective - Seems ok, but maybe something extra is still needed. One idea: worker double speed building of forts?



Not a bad idea about the forts. I have no idea if the XML for improvement can be trait modified but I can check. I can also add Jails at double the cost but I though the 50% GG boost within culture borders did the trick. :dunno:



Financial - Seems ok



Good!



Agressive - Seems ok. What about an extra promotion for aircraft?



Yeah, Agressive may need a little something more but I really want to play out the free naval combat I to see if that does it. An aircract boost is certainly an idea.



Philosophical - Agree with Jamuka that 50% GPP seems like a big nerf, needs something to compensate. What about a benefit like +10% science modifier in all cities? But that might be too strong...



Yep, looking at adding 1 or 2 raw beakers per city rather than a percentage.



Expansive - Maybe needs a cheap building or something else late game...



Yeah, I agree. EXP should help ealry in the game with expanding (Granery/wroker) and help dealing with pollution late game (Aqueducts/grocer). I think a discoutned Supermarket with the extra 1 food and health from meat may be the trick.



Sea Faring - Looks super strong for any map with water, guess that is the point :)



Did I mention Vikings will be SEA/AGG :D



Espionage - No opinion, see how it plays i guess.

My biggest concern on the Espionage trait is how the AIs utilize it, and how I can play against an AI who is SEC and I am not. Definitely the most "Play Testing" trait here. Myself, I use the espionage ability in the game so I know what to do with it.

Oh yes, you're absolutely right.

To answer the quote and this post.

So I thought. it's SDK modding which I am not up to dooing at thise time.


Thanks to all for your input!

my one comment would be that you have made protective even more irritating: useless in the hands of a human, infuriating in the hands of an AI.

my one comment would be that you have made protective even more irritating: useless in the hands of a human, infuriating in the hands of an AI.

Yes a balancing act, one of my concerns about readjusting these traits. Still, we should be able to RUSH Protective leaders the same way, just make sure we do it before they pop a few GGs.

I also nerfed the AIs use of financial so I have to see if I am consistenyl at the top of the tech race at emperor. If I am I need to rethink some of these changes.

what is the difference between 'double production speed' and '+100% production'? By my math they're the same, right?

what is the difference between 'double production speed' and '+100% production'? By my math they're the same, right?

There is no difference. Just a way for me to structure it in my head, +100% so I remember it's a NAtional Wonder, double speed for a regular building/unit.

Tinkered a bit more with the traits http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8033498&postcount=30

Overhauled IND quite a bit focusing on hammers at teh cost of Wonders (25% from 50%). +1 hammer per 4 hammer means heavy resources, CAste workshops, leveed watermills, plains mines, railroaded lumbermills, railroaded grassland hills get a boost. Thus as Wonder importance drops, IND starts to shine more and more.

Buffed Secrative with another cheap building (Jails) and added 1 food per 5 food tile (thus those secret agriculture techniques only that civilization knows). So sailing (for fish), Civil Service (irrigate grains), Biology are favorable techs.

Other changes are just reshuffling cheap buildings.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, I also added +2 beakers to each Phil city.

+2 beakers to each Phil city

I don't think this will turn PHI into a science trait, but rather an uber REXing trait.

You could use all your citizens to work :commerce: (why bother with scientists!?) to cover your maintenance to expand even more and then have your inherent +2:science:/city dig you out of any hole you managed to dig yourself into :eek:.

Later on though +2 :science: would be utterly worthless....

Maybe change it to +2 :science: per library to block any super REX abuse, then add some +:science: values to universities, astronomies etc for PHI only? (Like moument +1 :) for CHA) May be able to make its usefulness last and not have it be broken then.

Spiritual - Double missionaries seems too strong to me.

I agree here, this would make SPI players able to utterly control the world diplomacy.
If you want to get a crusade against a former friend going you could spam missionaries to them of a heathen religion.
You could also beat any other civ to converting the world at the start, will lead to far more polarized religions IMO.

I don't think this will turn PHI into a science trait, but rather an uber REXing trait.

You could use all your citizens to work :commerce: (why bother with scientists!?) to cover your maintenance to expand even more and then have your inherent +2:science:/city dig you out of any hole you managed to dig yourself into :eek:.

Later on though +2 :science: would be utterly worthless....

Maybe change it to +2 :science: per library to block any super REX abuse, then add some +:science: values to universities, astronomies etc for PHI only? (Like moument +1 :) for CHA) May be able to make its usefulness last and not have it be broken then.



I agree here, this would make SPI players able to utterly control the maps diplomacy.
If you want to get a crusade against a former friend going you could spam missionaries to them of a heathen religion.
You could also beat any other civ to converting the world at the start, will lead to far more polarized religions IMO.

You might be right about the REXing abilities although 20 beakers from 10 cities still is not cutting it. Perhaps an inherant +10% science (I hate going down that road), or perhaps splitting the difference and giving Phil +75% GP plus the cheap observatory and lab.

As far as the SPI leaders, well yeah. That's the nature of the business, more religion spreading. Perhaps a 50% boost, same with Spies for SEC and Execs with FIN. Thus ass cheap units are capped at 50% (same as settlers and workers).

As an alternative for Spiritual, I have been working with double production on cathedrals (all "super" religious buildings, not just Christian ones) as an alternate boost. It's interesting because Spiritual becomes a stronger trait for the Culture victory (both temples and cathedrals boosted -> culture generation), and it's not as unbalancing as double production on missionary units.

Just a suggestion. :)

I like Peter in this setup.

Maybe change the Protective promos?

Gunpowder gets Drill I/II
Archer gets Drill I/City Garrison I

Of course, someone like Churchill would become an even bigger beast...

Tinkered a bit more with the traits http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8033498&postcount=30


I like most of the traits now. The changes you made look fun to play with and change playstyle in a mild but relevant way.
There is no amount of defensive bonus that would make me like protective though. Would it be possible to give it a plain combat bonus (like 10% or something) to ALL battles inside cultural borders? This would at least help you repel invades without waiting to be sieged to death.

edit: I actually like the 2 beakers per city for philo. Don't do 10% per city, it wouldnt be very good. Maybe the 2 beakers per city could be '2 beakers per 5 citizens in a city'. This would make it less rediculous for rexing, and give it better longevity.
The double missionary thing sounds like fun too. I like the idea of extremely polarized religions.