Hi everyone
This is the first time, I write something on this forum. So first off I want to thank everybody for making it interesting to read, and maintaiing a very civil and constructive communication forum.
I was just wondering how many people like to use universal suffrage in order to provide the hammers for your city (financial leader) I was also wondering if it was worth it to change direction halfway through the game, when you get democracy. Basically switching from a SE to CE (universal suffrage, free speech, Serfdom, and Emancipation. I have never done that, and in fact I have trouble playing the financial trait the most.
Thanks in advance

running universal suffrage won't be as great if you haven't been cottage-spamming the entire game, but since you usually have to run emancipation by the end of the game, it certainly is never too late to start building cottages.

also, if you control the kremlin, rush-buying becomes a lot bit more attractive, but might be used effectively even without any bonus.

you are going to receive a few replies that say "it depends," which is true. just not very informative. so, it depends, and in many games i have built the pyramids and stayed in representation the entire game.

try looking at some sample games, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=258697), especially any that have maps similar to ones you are playing on.

Hi everyone
This is the first time, I write something on this forum. So first off I want to thank everybody for making it interesting to read, and maintaiing a very civil and constructive communication forum.
I was just wondering how many people like to use universal suffrage in order to provide the hammers for your city (financial leader) I was also wondering if it was worth it to change direction halfway through the game, when you get democracy. Basically switching from a SE to CE (universal suffrage, free speech, Serfdom, and Emancipation. I have never done that, and in fact I have trouble playing the financial trait the most.
Thanks in advance

Welcome to the forums !

DaveMcW has written a very good articles on the power of Cottages, and he insisted on the ultimate goal of building a cottage : having a Town. With Free Speech, Universal Suffrage and Emancipation, a worked cottage becomes a town (+7:commerce: +1:hammers:) in just about 35 turns. So if the game doesn't look like it will end in less than 50 -70 turns, building cottages and switching to cottage-friendly civics might be worth it.

Lowering the slider and going in a rush-buying spree is very viable, in fact TheMeInTeam has abused the tactic in some of his public games (even smashing opponents with better military techs than him) With the Kremlin, 2:gold: are turned into 1:hammers:, so the tactic becomes even more viable.

There are so many government systems that it depends so much on your leaders and civ, point in game, resources available etc. There are a lot of good articles on gov's and knowing many different kinds is favorable.

Also I'm not a huge fan of Financial since they get no cheap buildings. I don't think financial is a cottage spamming trait as much as it is an early grab a lot of valuable coast trait. Those extra free coins on the coast gives a quick, commerce positive city that grows fast. Expecially with Collossus.

Honestly, going from one to the other mid to late game is really dependent upon the game. A lot of what a CE does can be accomplished by your specialists late in the game. Seriously, just evaluate how long you think it would take to effectively transition your economy and decide whether or not it is worth the time waiting for your new cottages to mature.

I would check out some of TheMeInTeam's games to see how he works through - he's got a LOT of really great tips that have helped me a lot in the jump to Monarch.

With a hefty REX (13-15) a Pyramid/Specialist economy can be pulling in over 500 raw beakers before 1000 AD before you even touch the slider. In such cases you're economy and production will only get better after you have Biology/Communism. Now if you were running a SE where the primary source of beakers came from bulbing then a switch would be a good idea.

What's REX?:shifty:

Rapid EXpansion

Good to have you with us, Aardan. With regards to Universal Suffrage, I'm a huge fan. My experience with Civ IV has taught me that :hammers: yield from working the land is rarely sufficient to stay competitive with the AI. You almost always need a significant portion of population working your cottages to keep up with :science: and the :gold: to pay for upkeep. The extra :hammers: per town is awesome in and of itself, but in my mind it's the rush buying power.

In the early stages of my history, most the buildings and units I need can be rushed with the whip (slavery civic) at a good :food: to :hammers: exchange rate. Although I'm positive, I think whipping is usually provides a better tile usage to :hammers: conversion. Likewise, I think Universal Suffrage's rush buy is quite expensive, however, you don't have to regrow the population and don't have to worry about whipping :mad:.

When first started playing [civ4], I dismissed the financial trait is totally inferior to industrious and warmongering traits. After seeing how huge an advantage it offers during the REX phase, I found myself believing financial is the best trait available.

I was also wondering if it was worth it to change direction halfway through the game, when you get democracy. Basically switching from a SE to CE (universal suffrage, free speech, Serfdom, and Emancipation. I have never done that, and in fact I have trouble playing the financial trait the most.
Thanks in advance

I'm not getting myself into which one is better but yes switching from SE -> CE at emancipation works fine.

I use universal suffrage almost in every game, sometimes early in the game (pyramids!) and even more in one of those situations (the more of those I am in, the more likely it is I run US) :
- hammer poor map (archipelago, ...)
- financial leader
- spiritual leader (in this case, I'll balance between representation and US very often)
- could put my hands on the Kremlin

so if I'm playing mansa musa on archipelago and I managed the kremlin, you can bet your shirt I'm running US.

I may not run it for long streaks though. I rather use the $ rush ability in bursts.
First burst is often for $ rushing markets, groceries, banks.
further bursts can be for units, settlers, fast improvement of newly captured cities, ...

If I get christo redemptor, I very often spend 1 turn in rep, 1 tirn in US. This way I can $ rush every turn and still get the rep bonus half the time.

In my opinion there are few reasons not to run Universal Suffrage. The first is having a better reason to run Representation, and simply put you should know which way your empire fits better, I agree we're not here to debate CE/SE. There are rare cases for HR with a bunch of AI having it as favorite civic, and Police State if you know for certain that all you need is military and plan to workshop over everything.

About the effectives of US - overall, I would say that rush-buying is one of the most effective ways to get military/units built. Kremlin/Redentor are even nicer. It complements drafting very well since it allows you to focus production into your highest xp cities or speciality units (ie. buying a 10 xp battleship every turn, you can't do this any other way). US also allows you to get infrastructure up very quickly, for instance it can't bear enough repeating that you should NEVER be using slavery instead of US/drafting if at all possible.

For peaceful uses US is amazing for getting infrastructure in cities and getting buildings you need. If you have New-World type situation or late-game corporations and new cities to get up to speed nothing matches US for buying the granaries/courthouses/etc... right away. In a normal game I almost always find myself turning the slider down to rush-buy banks when they become available, same with factories; both of these have quite immediate pay-offs. You can also pretty much guarantee you'll get any late-game wonder you want at any difficulty with US (assuming you're still alive/competitive). I usually find it worth it despite the extra cost, and it's simply kinda cool to guarantee yourself Kremlin/UN anyway, which then make US even better ;).

Thank you all for the feedback. I guess I have been missing out on a good aspect of the game. I never considered US for its buying usage since I have always run my :science: as high as possible without having to go in the red on :gold: I have rarely built cottages at the begiining of the game relying more on farms and workshops in order to get some specialitst while maintaining hammers to make buildings and units.
Thanks you z0wb13 for the link. I just had a sneal peak and can't wait to spend some time reading up.
Thanks gfm and Foamy7 for your reference on TheMeInTeam. I will definitely look at his games.
A few of you mentioned the Kremlin. Does its benefits apply to all cities or just the city it is built in?
Thanks Cabert for your suggestion on christo redemptor, I never thought of using it as I do not change CIVICS often in the late game.

Even if you don't have Christo Redentor or the Kremiln, you might consider using US in the late game if you start a Golden Age. (Mostly if you're not already Spiritual).

You can use the extra commerce to help fund a rush buying spree and also get 2 hammers from all of your towns. Just remember to switch back to Representation at the last turn of the golden age, if that's your long term better civic.

In a nutshell, US is buffed by a golden age (unless all of your towns are on plains or hills, I suppose) but Representation is unnaffected (since even in US, your specialists still generate double GPPs), so why not switch, since it's anarchy free and lets you build infrastructure faster.

Even if you don't have Christo Redentor or the Kremiln, you might consider using US in the late game if you start a Golden Age. (Mostly if you're not already Spiritual).

You can use the extra commerce to help fund a rush buying spree and also get 2 hammers from all of your towns. Just remember to switch back to Representation at the last turn of the golden age, if that's your long term better civic.

In a nutshell, US is buffed by a golden age (unless all of your towns are on plains or hills, I suppose) but Representation is unnaffected (since even in US, your specialists still generate double GPPs), so why not switch, since it's anarchy free and lets you build infrastructure faster.
Sneaky and smart

US also allows you to get infrastructure up very quickly, for instance it can't bear enough repeating that you should NEVER be using slavery instead of US/drafting if at all possible.



Whyever would you think this? I see no conflict between US and Slavery and frequently run both together. They use different and unrelated aspects of the game to produce hammers. One uses gold and the other uses pop to produce hammers and both are boosted by the Kremlin. Obviously you would not want to be whipping away pop that are working towns but there are often a lot of specialists or citizens working weaker tiles that are better turned into hammers.

US and Slavery is one of the most cost effective ways of getting captured cities into a state where they make a useful contribution to the economy, installing buildings and controlling excess pop that are unhappy and useless or starving.