I thought it would be somewhat wise to create a new thread in order to gather pictures and thoughts about the great persons.

As we discussed in the Orbis History & Lore thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=319286), some GPs need to be removed and replaced because they are now minor leaders (quite a promotion). I tried to make a comprehensive list of GPs that got promoted:

Bards
Furia the Made (Balseraphs)
Melisandre (Balseraphs)

Commanders
Captain Ostanes (Hippus)
Captain Uldanor (Hippus)
Averax the Cambion (Sheaim)
Tethira (Bannor)
Rivanna the Wraith Lord (Svartalfar)

Prophets
Gosea (Sheaim)

Sages
Tya Kiri (Amurites)
Thessalonica (Elohim)
Malchavic (Sheaim)

Adventurers
Volanna (Svartalfar)

So this means that the total would drop to:
Bards: 18/20
Commanders: 15/20 (+2 iirc from Arkham)
Engineers: 20/20 (no changes here)
Merchants: 20/20 (no changes here)
Prophets: 19/20
Sages: 17/20
Adventurers: 19/20

Of course, the 20 limit is the original; it can be ignored.

Now, thoughts: according to my games, the more GPs generated are the bards, the prophets and the commanders. I very rarely see any engineer or adventurer. The latter is quite rare because of the tiny adventurer points the Grigori get but that's another topic.

I plan on adding some more GPs along with my Ngomele civilization. No accurate idea yet but at least 3 and maybe up to 6.

Arkham felt we could add more accurate, lorefitting pictures to some GPs. Need discussion I guess.

Other than that, I think that anyone has the possibility to add a GP. Simply get a 384*128 picture, a name and a quotation.
So, for now, we need:
2 bards
5 commanders
1 prophet
2 sages
1 adventurer

I'll edit this post with people's submission :goodjob:

Bard: Arkham (Balseraph)

Adventurer: Seon :p, just joking, no idea there :scratches head:

Proposed by Arkham:

Unspecified type:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212970&d=1241390744
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212971&d=1241390744
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212972&d=1241390744
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212973&d=1241390880
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212974&d=1241390880
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212975&d=1241390880
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212976&d=1241390973
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212977&d=1241390973
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212978&d=1241390973
Great Sages:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212979&d=1241391080
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212980&d=1241391080
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212981&d=1241391080
Great Prophets:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213129&d=1241481455
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213130&d=1241481455
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213131&d=1241481455
Great Merchants:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213133&d=1241481876
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213134&d=1241481876
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213135&d=1241481876
Great Commanders:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213136&d=1241482345
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213137&d=1241482345
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213138&d=1241482345
Great Engineers:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213139&d=1241482576
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213141&d=1241482576
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213140&d=1241482576The last one seems more like an Adventurer than a Engineer :p

Here are my three gnoll GPs; I don't yet their type:Hasher Fiery-Pelt:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213192&stc=1&d=1241513307
Gwu Khang of the Wuyo:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213194&stc=1&d=1241513307
Mdiri the Dexterous:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213193&stc=1&d=1241513307

Proposed by Arkham - Unspecified type

Actually they are specified. If you call them up in the original Orbis Lore thread, all of mine have GP-type+artist-name as their file name so in order they are.

Great Merchant
Great Bard
Great Bard
Great General/Commander
Great Merchant
Great Sage...although with the steampunk flavor perhaps should be changed to an engineer since we have more sage pics than engineers in fantasy art.
Last 3 are all Great Generals/Commanders.

Anyway, I'm not sure of the legality of using artwork found on the internet so I always try to put the name of the artist in the file name so they can be credited which, if I recall, covers our base. Not that I really think a fantasy artist would sue a bunch of modders who are not getting any money out of this but hey, it's best to be professional about things.

Oh and regarding the engineer looking like an adventurer, well I forgot they get their own pop-ups or I'd have made her one as well. I was sort of thinking of the Mechanos's blimps and zeppelins and thinking she was using the bird to do experiments with wings/wind and that sort of aerodynamics type thing.

UPDATE: Actually in looking at the #1 G-Mer, I think that would be another good adventurer...especially if you look at the full picture. Seeing just the tail of the dragon to me looks like a 'medieval' Riply is about to turn around and put the smack-down on the Alien(tm) xenomorph!

Sorry to be such a n00b about this, but I thought each entry for a GP would have a artwork tied to it. However, as I mentioned before, I recently saw Great Generals with the same artwork. Is it simply that Ahwaric just re-used art on later GP's since he didn't have enough or if a GP has 'unassigned' art, the program just goes back and uses the art from the beginning of that GP's list? (For example, Great Sage 18-20 has no art so they'd use art from 1-3?)

Beyond digging through the code, is there a list of all the GP's?

I must say the Great Prophet pictures just scream Malikim prophet, Lojosolfar prophet and Bannor prophet.

Hmmm, Arkham as a Great Bard...I'm not sure if this pic would fit...

At least it has a caption: "You sent me all the way to Afghanistan and all you give me is non-alcoholic beer? :lol:

Sorry to be such a n00b about this, but I thought each entry for a GP would have a artwork tied to it. However, as I mentioned before, I recently saw Great Generals with the same artwork. Is it simply that Ahwaric just re-used art on later GP's since he didn't have enough or if a GP has 'unassigned' art, the program just goes back and uses the art from the beginning of that GP's list? (For example, Great Sage 18-20 has no art so they'd use art from 1-3?)

Beyond digging through the code, is there a list of all the GP's?

I must say the Great Prophet pictures just scream Malikim prophet, Lojosolfar prophet and Bannor prophet.Actually, 20-21-22 share the same picture. Don't know why though. Anyway, let me explain with a bit more depth:

When a GP is created, a random unique name is chosen in the list at the start of the relevant UnitInfo (Great Prophet, Great Merchant, etc.). This unique name is tied to an ID, a number between 1 and X, X being mostly 20 in the current mods that use it. When one ID is used, it cannot be used anymore in the current game. So, when all ID are used for one UnitInfo, then the game just don't pop-up anything; you just see "A Great XXX is born in XXX". It's possible to have two similar pictures only because two or more ID share the same picture.

I'm eager to see what you have to write about those. Not sure they would all be added, though. I think we may need to find balance between all the GP types; not having 27 commanders when there's only 18 bards, for example.

Finally, a thought about the gnoll ones? :p

Finally, a thought about the gnoll ones? :p

Actually today I am trying to do things like doing my 3+ hours for the Census and applying for federal work online so I'm actually (gasp) to busy for gaming for a change. :eek:

I will get to it though. However, I'm thinking I need to go through the gnoll thread and read everything prior to trying to write anything.

One thing, at least, is that I've been able to copy the XML for GP's so at least it's mostly a copy and paste thing for Ahwaric. :goodjob:

Actually today I am trying to do things like doing my 3+ hours for the Census and applying for federal work online so I'm actually (gasp) to busy for gaming for a change. :eek:

I will get to it though. However, I'm thinking I need to go through the gnoll thread and read everything prior to trying to write anything.

One thing, at least, is that I've been able to copy the XML for GP's so at least it's mostly a copy and paste thing for Ahwaric. :goodjob:Oh, but I was just asking a thought about their artwork. I personally want to write most of the entries about the gnolls. I have some ideas of who they are, so... But if you want to add other gnolls, do it :)

Oh, but I was just asking a thought about their artwork. I personally want to write most of the entries about the gnolls. I have some ideas of who they are, so... But if you want to add other gnolls, do it :)

I'm thinking it's probably going to be hard to find enough artwork for Great Bards. That and most of the artwork has them looking rather cranky and mean! :eek:

I have a bunch of files to use for GPs, some of which would make good bards I think. I'll upload them later tonight :)

Okay, I took a break and did these great prophets

To me it looks like prophets to OO, Fol and one preachy the word of Bhial.

I must say this if often harder than it looks since so much makers of fantasy art must labor under the idea that fantasy art women have to have uncovered breasts. =/

Yes, typical ain't it ? If you see some of the "armour" some of 'em woman in fantasy art are bearing, you ask yourself: Why hasn't she frozen to death ?

Oh, I love the second one. Used it for creating an Archos leader for FF :)

I agree with you on women. It has been hard to find an interesting art for Mahala, a "barbarian" girl with some armor! Some crazy thing to hope for on the internet. At least, her breasts are covered, even though her belly isn't.

If there is one thing that Anthropology has taught me is to be respectful of other culture's traditions, rituals, and apparel...

Actually they are specified. If you call them up in the original Orbis Lore thread, all of mine have GP-type+artist-name as their file name so in order they are.
It would be best if you add a note which specific greatp person the art should go to. I know you do not like some of them, but which ones exactly?
Most of the work is to actually decide which one goes where... Also, it allows for checking if more than one person (me) thinks the art is right.
Anyway, I'm not sure of the legality of using artwork found on the internet so I always try to put the name of the artist in the file name so they can be credited which, if I recall, covers our base. Not that I really think a fantasy artist would sue a bunch of modders who are not getting any money out of this but hey, it's best to be professional about things.
We do not get any money, and I am always willing to remove art if asked by the artist. I just hope they do not :)

I think it would be best both for legality reasons and forum rules if you just post a link to the full, uncut art.
Also, uncut one means I can cut it to better fit the bevel effect in case I add it. Right now, I am quite limited by the small pictures.

So, I need name of person and link to a picture (full) you think fits.

Sorry to be such a n00b about this, but I thought each entry for a GP would have a artwork tied to it. However, as I mentioned before, I recently saw Great Generals with the same artwork. Is it simply that Ahwaric just re-used art on later GP's since he didn't have enough or if a GP has 'unassigned' art
I was in a hurry to release patch d and decided that art for great generals can wait. Also, they are your generals and I will wait till you decide which art to give them. ;)
So I just copied art link from the great general #20.
Beyond digging through the code, is there a list of all the GP's?
Check this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283290)
I am not sure if the pictures are the same as the ones that finally got to great person mod. To be sure you need to check xml. As you have acces to Office 2007 (which I think is much better than 2003 BTW), I recommend just checking in the Orbis editor.

Mechanics was explained by Opera already and I have nothing to add to it.
I must say the Great Prophet pictures just scream Malikim prophet, Lojosolfar prophet and Bannor prophet.
Remeber that no great people are tied to specific civ/religion. So elven one can be born in demon lands and found AV shrine.
Hmmm, Arkham as a Great Bard...I'm not sure if this pic would fit...

At least it has a caption: "You sent me all the way to Afghanistan and all you give me is non-alcoholic beer? :lol:
LOL Need to think about it :)

I'm eager to see what you have to write about those. Not sure they would all be added, though. I think we may need to find balance between all the GP types; not having 27 commanders when there's only 18 bards, for example.
But we need to keep in mind how many GP of each class are typicaslly born. In Ffh and FF great commanders are rare, but in Orbis they are probably the most common GP, followed by bards and probably prophwets. Engineers and especially merchants are less common. But some balance is needed.
Yes, typical ain't it ? If you see some of the "armour" some of 'em woman in fantasy art are bearing, you ask yourself: Why hasn't she frozen to death ?
I do not mind half (or fully ;)) naked women, especially if there is any cultural (or climatic) reason for it.
But the infamous chainmail bikini and simillar armor is one of the most stupid things I have ever seen. Chainmail on bare body, without padded armor below? And that is supposed to be a protection?
And on top of that add a snowy ladscape in the background... The chilling metal on bare breasts... :eek:

I do not mind half (or fully ) naked women, especially if there is any cultural (or climatic) reason for it.Good to know ;)

Here are four of my GPs. Two bards, one commander and one merchant.
(full uncut art for later)

Ahwaric,

First off, I keep all the original artwork. However, not knowing the space limitations of the CivFanatics Forum, I have just been posting the edited file. Most of the artwork I've sent comes from much bigger pictures and it takes a lot of work to get a good 384x128 capture.

If you like, private message me your email and I'll email you all my artwork. I have a lot that would make nice leader pics for minor leaders.

As for the line about "screams Malikim prohpet" I meant that when I write the tag-line that goes with it, I'd write them as if those prophets came from those societies. I realize everyone gets any random GP.

All the artwork I've gotten so far is a 'secondary' site that lists buckets of artwork. So far I've gone through 36 pages of 155! -http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/gallery.pl?genre=2

If you like, private message me your email and I'll email you all my artwork. I have a lot that would make nice leader pics for minor leaders.Can I be a bit . .. .. .. .. .y and ask to wait until I released some of my new minor leaders? It's a huge lot of work and it wouldn't be nice if all I did was in vain :p Or else, let's create a new minor leaders thread!

Can I be a bit . .. .. .. .. .y and ask to wait until I released some of my new minor leaders? It's a huge lot of work and it wouldn't be nice if all I did was in vain :p Or else, let's create a new minor leaders thread!

I said I have a lot of leader artwork. Didn't say I have any leaders to go with them! :lol:

I said I have a lot of leader artwork. Didn't say I have any leaders to go with them! :lol:I'm relieved :p I'm far from having anything interesting right now, mostly art and ideas. The XML files for leaders are very very long to edit, even with the editor. And I don't talk about lore! :(

Would you mind sharing? If you think the files are too big, you could still link to the place you found the picture. Hm, I'm really considering a new thread :mischief:

OT: I found a great picture that would perfectly suits a Great Spy if they existed. Maybe they should be Great Assassins?http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213485&stc=1&d=1241731828

Well awhile back on one of the threads I posted a pick for what I thought would be a good Scion leader, a Lanun leader (heavy into OO) as well as a pic for Baron Halfmorn (personally I like it better for the Civlopedia pic and the current one for the pop-up).

I also had one for Korinna the Red Lady as a possible evil leader for the Scions.

I've attached one for Maer due to the Civlopedia thread. Yes, she isn't white, but why does everyone in fantasy have to be white? :mad:

The other two are for are for an evil version for someone like the Amurites and a neutral/good for the Illians.

I hope they come through

Plus without looking at Orbis (which I have on my laptop) the first seems to be a good minor leader for the Illians since I've noticed a lot of the minor leaders are very magic related.

Next is a possible evil leader for the Mechanos and finally a picture that we couldn't use but just SCREAMS Balseraphs!

Plus many of the originals I used for the Great People would probably make good leaders.

The first looks very Malakim, the next a very primal (and pissed off) Svartalfar, and finally one for the Elohim that doesn't make them look like either Gandalf or Galadriel. :p

And then there are some pics I'd love to use but have no real idea for what. I mean they look like angels but also like some weird form of angel/machine spirits. :eek:

...and a few more of them.

I like the second one. The first is a bit weird and not so Maer-y. I think that the current Maer picture is great... It could be changed, yes... But I would certainly re-use it for another leader :p The third one doesn't really seem Illian to me. Grey, yes, snowy and icy, not so much.

For the Illians, I have this:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213495&stc=1&d=1241733757And for the Scions:http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=213496&stc=1&d=1241733757
I really like the one for Illians. She seems so sad... as do Auric.

For now, I have roughly one new leader (at least in art) for each civilization. The Malakim are the ones I've the more trouble with... My point with my modmod/contribution is to balance out the number of female leaders as well as balancing the ration female/male in each civilization. For example, there's only males for Grigori so I added females. Where there is mostly females, I added, well, either nothing or females or males. Males don't need that more leaders anyway. I did a bit of statistics, in spoiler for interested:24 civilizations
→ 12 having 50% of ♀ or more
→ 05 having 00% of ♀
→ 01 having 100% of ♀

♀: 28
which are minors: 14 (50%)
♂: 43
which are minors: 17 (39,5%)
♀♂: 71; 39,4%♀
which are minors: 31 (43,7%)

Yeah, your angels-things are a bit hard to place! I've already seen some of them while searching for new Mercurians minor leaders. I didn't think they would fit, though. Right now, I think I have three or four Mercurians.

I like the second one.

Like I said, seems like a good Evil minor leader for someone like the Amurites since it looks very fire related.

Like I said, I just posed one that looks good for a female Malakim.

My only 'problem' with these leaders is I think Ahwaric opened up a bit of a can of worms (not in a bad way) by linking the Cualli as the evil Matazl. Obviously a few Civs would have some different (possibly corrupted in the case of the Bannor or Elohim) units available if they were evil.

Plus, I realize this isn't the "Hey can you do this thread?" but I was playing an all minor leader game and after awhile my minor Illian leader went 'great' yet I've never seen it happen to an AI minor leader. I wonder why is that? Some minor leaders I've played against have kicked righteous booty! :eek:

Oh, I didn't see those six others!

As I already said, I really like the one you see for Svartalfar. Did a new leader for Archos with her. I love this kind of picture :) The other are particularly cool, especially the Balseraphs one. However, I think the Balseraphs are "full", they have already 5 leaders and I think Ahwaric doesn't want more for one civ. Your Malakim one is really nice. I think I will do her art right now :p

BTW, I like your Scion one. I did post this a while back for another minor Scion leader.

BTW, I like your Scion one. I did post this a while back for another minor Scion leader.

...and of course it didn't take. Let's try this again or not...since you can find it here - http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211968&d=1240595635

Huh. We did a lot of cross-posts and double-posts here :lol:

My only 'problem' with these leaders is I think Ahwaric opened up a bit of a can of worms (not in a bad way) by linking the Cualli as the evil Matazl. Obviously a few Civs would have some different (possibly corrupted in the case of the Bannor or Elohim) units available if they were evil.Hm, I'm not sure I'm really into this G/N/E thing. On one hand, I think it's great to see more diversity inside one civ (this is why I chose to add female leaders, because I like some civs but don't like their leader) but I have trouble seeing some civilizations having evil leaders, like the Elohim. I may just need a little time :p

Huh. We did a lot of cross-posts and double-posts here :lol:

Hm, I'm not sure I'm really into this G/N/E thing. On one hand, I think it's great to see more diversity inside one civ (this is why I chose to add female leaders, because I like some civs but don't like their leader) but I have trouble seeing some civilizations having evil leaders, like the Elohim. I may just need a little time :p

Well not to create a new thread, but *I* like the idea if only in the sense of for minor leaders.

As I posted recently on the "Upon Conquest" thread, I believe the vassal system needs to be redone so as to allow making vassals more in line with vanilla BTS. I mean right now you can only make vassals out of your own cities if they are separated by water.

I feel that after conquering a Civ, you should have the chance to then 'liberate' it as a vassal (and be able to pick and choose which cities to give back) and this 'new' Civ will be a minor leader whose alignment matches yours. As I posted, why should I stop before wiping out a Civ (like the Sheaim) to vassalize them if I'm the Bannor? Better to take them completely out and then install a leader with my same alignment.

Some great art here, but let me repeat.

POST LINKS, NOT ART ITSELF. please!

If I get link, if I decide to use it I have no problems adding artist name to credits list.
Also, form notque's thread on leaders pictures: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7804356&postcount=56

Please, check it and do as I ask.
For now, I am not going to use most of the art. But still, some are really good ones.

Also, while I am such things:
I have never said I want one E/N/G leader for every civ. You made that up arkham. In fact, I do not want to add any more leaders right now unless I really need one. Minor ones still need work as they are.
Also, I think that balancing the number of female and male leaders is quite artificial and it is not my goal either. But I do not mind a modmodmod, and perhaps some good leaders will get to Orbis, too.

It would be best if you add a note which specific greatp person the art should go to. I know you do not like some of them, but which ones exactly?
Most of the work is to actually decide which one goes where... Also, it allows for checking if more than one person (me) thinks the art is right.
So far, despite the thread name, not much help in great persons departamanet. Of course, you can discuss what you want, but IIRC arkham, you wanted some Great Persons art changed :p. I count on you especially for the ones for the new great generals (#21 & #22)

Also, Maer's picture stays. I need to check if pedia entry fits the picture and change the entry if needed.

POST LINKS, NOT ART ITSELF. please!Let's do that!

For my first four GPs (excluding the gnolls) from this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8055996&postcount=17), in order:
http://alwang.cgsociety.org/gallery/666844/
http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6431
http://alonchou.cgsociety.org/gallery/
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=114407

Then, the one from this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8061373&postcount=21):
http://www.ruanjia.com/

Then, the two leaders from this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8061533&postcount=27):
http://mckadesinsanity.cgsociety.org/gallery/
http://pencileater.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Unfortunately, I don't know who is the artist of my three gnolls as I got the picture on a forum thread unrelated to the artist... Does this mean that you will be against including them?

Also, I think that balancing the number of female and male leaders is quite artificial and it is not my goal either. But I do not mind a modmodmod, and perhaps some good leaders will get to Orbis, too.Yes, it's artificial, I know. I just feel better playing female leaders. I have my issues too :p Anyway, I wasn't thinking of having this modmod incorporated in Orbis. It'd be really really a huge "I like this" compilation of leaders, very personal in fact. So it won't please anyone, I don't know if it would even please someone besides me :lol:

I feel bad now, like a child who did something stupid :crazyeye:

Let's do that!
Thanks! If not other things, I try not to violate forum rules ;) It is better to put art in other places for forum performance, too.

Unfortunately, I don't know who is the artist of my three gnolls as I got the picture on a forum thread unrelated to the artist... Does this mean that you will be against including them?
Well, I am not going that far :) Just want to credit the artist if it is possible
Yes, it's artificial, I know. I just feel better playing female leaders. I have my issues too :p
Don't we all?
But as I said, I will definetly try it if you release it. Some minor leaders can use some substitution anyway. So, if you come with a good one (picture and info) it can get in.

I feel bad now, like a child who did something stupid :crazyeye:
Please do not. It happens and is ok now.

I have never said I want one E/N/G leader for every civ. You made that up arkham. In fact, I do not want to add any more leaders right now unless I really need one. Minor ones still need work as they are.

I didn't make it up. I may have misinterpreted something you said, but I didn't make it up. However, I'm not about to troll through every post you've done just so I can say, "Aha!" It's your mod and you can change your mind when ever you feel like it.

Plus for the most part, I would think that minor leaders would be the only ones that might need a G/N/E if only to be used in conjunction with vassalization. I mean even if you don't beat down a Civilization down to nothing, you'd expect to be able to say, "Okay Tebryn I have you dead to rights. So are you going to capitulate? Yes? Great! I'll spare your people...you on the other hand..." and then install a new minor leader of your alignment.

Of course a "Good" Illian or Sheaim seems like a paradox. I don't know, some races just don't seem like they'd either accept becoming a vassal or even if they did, that you'd want them to stay as they are. So it's almost like if you make vassals out of them, or liberate their cities to become vassals you'd expect the Illian to become a minor Doviello and the Sheaim to become a minor Amurite.

Being FfH, there may be redemption everywhere. The Sheaim could understand that they have followed the wrong path and turn themselves to the good side. Os-Gabella could finally choose to live fully with the Creation. Even the Illians could just become snow-lovers not implicated in a quest for bringing Mulcarn back. They would certainly take arms and go fight the Infernals in order to stop the hell spreading. We may see the leaders like strong, stubborn minds, dedicated to what they believe but we have to remember that they are, in essence, "humans", in the sense that they can change (and this is all what FfH is about). I do believe that not any civilization as an inherent alignment and that not any alignment in the game is forever. Well, perhaps except the Mercurians and the Infernals... but they are a sort of special case. They aren't "humans", they seem like personifications of alignment.

Anyway, instead of having a leader of each alignment, I think vassalage could simply change the leader's alignment. But, in fact, I'm not sure it would have a function right now. Vassals will more likely end up liking you anyway. There should be something like a huge grudge and a sort of project to install a puppet state, effectively removing the actual leader for another.

Being FfH, there may be redemption everywhere

Totally agree

Anyway, instead of having a leader of each alignment, I think vassalage could simply change the leader's alignment. But, in fact, I'm not sure it would have a function right now. Vassals will more likely end up liking you anyway. There should be something like a huge grudge and a sort of project to install a puppet state, effectively removing the actual leader for another.

Well here I don't totally agree. From a game stand point, I agree. However, and this is my personal bias, is that I long for a time when Orbis will have the Fall into Revolution Edition code that is supposedly going to make it into FF. Why? Because while it was nice having your cities revolt due to certain things, I'm looking forward to the code that will take barbarian cities and morph them into minor civs.

As I've have pointed out in many threads, I believe that I believe that the difference between an 'active' and a 'minor' Civ is their leader. The active civs have a charismatic leader with a ideal and purpose. They 'set fire' the imagination of their followers. However, like space-faring races, developed civilizations are hard to kill. I can see as things are going badly prior to the Age of Winter, you'd have refugees, armies everywhere suddenly cut off and those who took off early before things went really bad.

So that means there are pockets of people everywhere on Erebus. Most die out, but many live on. I would think that for the most part, a Active civ is the one that ended up with a viable leader, while a minor civ might be an army stuck out somewhere who hunkers down, collecting refugees (probably many from the people they were fighting) and thus where more concerned with just surviving. Later when the Age of Ice ends, these folks are more insular, thinking, "We survived; let's not borrow trouble" So as I've said before, I'd like to see barbarians not just be orcs (that's what the savages are for) but all races and that someday (if left alone) they'll morph into minor civs.

So why is this relevant to your point? Well my feeling is, the Leader IS the civilization in many ways. Their strength of vision is what made them challenge Erebus and going out into the unknown. They are not the types that would probably meekly surrender.

I'm not saying they wouldn't, but the point is that as a conqueror, I might not want them because by leaving them in place, they might rebel. Better to have a minor leader I can more control. I mean think on the standard practice of when someone topples a king, they kill anyone that might claim the throne. Better to pick a rival or a 'rebel' whose throne rest more through your power. Hell the Colonial power did that for around 200 years and it worked out pretty well.

This thread is dominated by Opera and Arkham! Down with the art-lovers! :p

This thread is dominated by Opera and Arkham! Down with the art-lovers! :p

Perhaps we are merely 'Great Persons' - :p

Okay then, Opera and Arkham, the 4269th, the Greatest Bard of all times

So why is this relevant to your point? Well my feeling is, the Leader IS the civilization in many ways. Their strength of vision is what made them challenge Erebus and going out into the unknown. They are not the types that would probably meekly surrender.Autoquoting:a sort of project to install a puppet state, effectively removing the actual leader for another.They would be made to surrender. They would be replaced by a minor leader whose alignment could be shifted in order to match yours, effectively mimicing puppet states created after conquest, but they would require that you do something, not just that you vassalize them, hence why I proposed a project like "Create Puppet State". But, actually, a project would be broken since the player couldn't choose which one of its many vassals to puppet-state. However, using Spies could work... and maybe Great Spies :mischief:

This thread is dominated by Opera and Arkham! Down with the art-lovers!Feel free to contribute! The more we are to discuss, the better it is :goodjob: